Why doesn't Batman build his *own* prison? [Archive]

Buried Alien

10-02-2009, 01:53 AM

Let's accept the premise that Batman refuses to kill. Even so, why does he continue to trust Gotham City's prison system and Arkham Asylum to keep the likes of the Joker, Two-Face, and Bane incarcerated when they've already demonstrated their inability to do so dozens upon dozens of times?

Batman, through the Wayne Fortune, has the resources and the will to build a much more effective prison than Gotham can. Since Gotham has continuously proved its ineptitude in holding these dangerous criminals prisoner, why doesn't Batman design and build a much more formidable prison?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Sn4tcH

10-02-2009, 01:57 AM

Arkham Asylum is built using a lot of Wayne Tech material anyway, correct?

ryerye17

10-02-2009, 02:26 AM

again, because Batman is an enabler.

dancj

10-02-2009, 05:06 AM

Seek out the 90s 12 part series (technically a cancelled ongoing, but they tied it up so well that it feels like a miniseries), Chain Gang War.

carabas

10-02-2009, 07:09 AM

If Batman built his own prison for his rogues, one of two things would happen.
Either there'd be no more Joker stories, ever (and let's face it, that simply is not going to happen) or Batman will build prisons that are just as shoddy as Arkham and Blackgate.

WorstThingUS

10-02-2009, 08:32 AM

Same reason the JLA doesn't using their advanced tech: because then you'd have no more stories.

Death by Mime

10-02-2009, 08:46 AM

He's already a control freak; having that level of control over people would be bad for him.

SarcasmicBengali

10-02-2009, 10:43 AM

think deeper.
the reason isn't a fallacy of writing the perpetuates the stories themselves.

Batman is more of a symbol, (obviously) he's meant to inspire and stand as that symbol that wills the City of Gotham (and beyond) out of it's corrupt and lazy ways.
obviously over the year's he's gotten more obsessive, ruthless, controlling and a fuck-all attitude... but he still has to maintain that thin line that allows the proper authorities to at least try to maintain order.

the point of Batman isn't to change the world all by himself, but act as a symbol to allow the world to change itself using him as an example.

Karl O'Neill

10-02-2009, 10:47 AM

The same reason he doesn't build his own hotdog stand and sell hotdogs.:biggrin:

Because he can't do everything!

OverMaster

10-02-2009, 10:52 AM

The same reason he doesn't build his own hotdog stand and sell hotdogs.:biggrin:

Because he can't do everything!

That, and if the jail is publically built by Bruce Wayne, then it has to follow Gotham State's regulations and probably won't be much different from Arkham and Blackgate.

And if he builds it clandestine and beyond the law's reach, how is he going to keep it a secret? And where will he get the staff needed?

Blue Blazes

10-02-2009, 11:09 AM

That, and if the jail is publically built by Bruce Wayne, then it has to follow Gotham State's regulations and probably won't be much different from Arkham and Blackgate.

And if he builds it clandestine and beyond the law's reach, how is he going to keep it a secret? And where will he get the staff needed?

i think it would be best to donate equipment and money to the new Arkham as it gets rebuilt. He can donate it as Bruce, but up to the Batman standards and no one would know.

Buried Alien

10-02-2009, 11:44 AM

And if he builds it clandestine and beyond the law's reach, how is he going to keep it a secret? And where will he get the staff needed?

I was thinking along the lines of a subterranean gulag, better conceived than the one in KINGDOM COME (and perhaps several separate ones instead one centralized one where all the villains can work together to attempt an escape), and staffed by an army of OMACs.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

shanejayell

10-02-2009, 11:46 AM

He might consider it crossing a line he doesn't want to cross. As soon as he starts jailing them, he might decide he has the right to execute them too....

ruppan

10-02-2009, 01:43 PM

Vakanai

10-02-2009, 02:29 PM

The same reason he doesn't build his own hotdog stand and sell hotdogs.:biggrin:

Because he can't do everything!

No, the reason he doesn't open a hot dog stand is because, well, why would he? It's not like he's desperate for cash. It wouldn't help him in his mission to fight crime. Everyone would be like 'Dude, what the hell are you doing? Selling hotdogs? Why the hell are you selling hotdogs? What do you mean you just felt like it? Who the hell feels like selling hotdogs? Come on, you're Batman dammit. Go out there, brood, beat up muggers, find some new kid to endanger now that Robin is competent. Hell, team up with Superman for an issue or two. Selling hotdogs. Man...'

I am vengeance! I am the night! I am the hotdog selling man!

Psavell2

10-02-2009, 03:35 PM

In the current arc of the Outsiders it has been revealed that apparently Batman does have a secret prison outside of Gotham where the team will temporarily be keeping the Arkham escapees as they round them up.

The story seems to be happening parrallel to Blackest Night, and Alfred, not having much information at this time, seems concerned that the villains could become Black Lanterns if returned to Gotham.

carabas

10-02-2009, 04:07 PM

No, the reason he doesn't open a hot dog stand is because, well, why would he? It's not like he's desperate for cash. It wouldn't help him in his mission to fight crime. Everyone would be like 'Dude, what the hell are you doing? Selling hotdogs? Why the hell are you selling hotdogs? What do you mean you just felt like it? Who the hell feels like selling hotdogs? Come on, you're Batman dammit. Go out there, brood, beat up muggers, find some new kid to endanger now that Robin is competent. Hell, team up with Superman for an issue or two. Selling hotdogs. Man...'

I am vengeance! I am the night! I am the hotdog selling man!
It could work. His new arch enemy could be a clown... who sells... hamburgers.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/ronald_mcdonald_jumping1.jpg

Karl O'Neill

10-02-2009, 04:21 PM

I knew the hotdog thing would go down well:biggrin:

mgs

10-02-2009, 04:38 PM

The same reason he doesn't build his own hotdog stand and sell hotdogs.:biggrin:

Because he can't do everything!
well, let's be fair. he may not operate his own hotdog stand and sell em, but he DOES own and operate the company that owns the farms and factories that produce said hotdogs, buns, 'hot' carriers and all... :wink:

And on the op, not just create his own jail, but why he doesn't simply maim each and every criminal he catches. make them multiple amputees. not killing them, but essentially, putting them out of the game. :wink:

Jorriss

10-02-2009, 05:23 PM

Reasonably, he should 'make' his own prison in the sense he should outfit arkham where people can't escape.

That being said, I can also justify it where it won't bother me even though it doesn't make a lot of sense.

OverMaster

10-02-2009, 05:50 PM

I was thinking along the lines of a subterranean gulag, better conceived than the one in KINGDOM COME (and perhaps several separate ones instead one centralized one where all the villains can work together to attempt an escape), and staffed by an army of OMACs.

Relying on OMACs in the DCU, much like relying on Sentinels in the MU, is an idea that only can end badly.

Captain Jim

10-02-2009, 07:18 PM

No, the reason he doesn't open a hot dog stand is because, well, why would he? It's not like he's desperate for cash. It wouldn't help him in his mission to fight crime. Everyone would be like 'Dude, what the hell are you doing? Selling hotdogs? Why the hell are you selling hotdogs? What do you mean you just felt like it? Who the hell feels like selling hotdogs? Come on, you're Batman dammit. Go out there, brood, beat up muggers, find some new kid to endanger now that Robin is competent. Hell, team up with Superman for an issue or two. Selling hotdogs. Man...'

I am vengeance! I am the night! I am the hotdog selling man!

LOL !

It could work. His new arch enemy could be a clown... who sells... hamburgers.

LOL again!

Static-Pulse

10-02-2009, 07:20 PM

Because it didn't work out too well for Reed Richards & co.

nepenthes

10-03-2009, 12:58 AM

If he's keeping prisoners in a secret gulag completely outside the US justice system, then he's dispensing justice. In other words, he's deciding whether these people are guilty or innocent and determining how they should be punished.

I think that goes against his vigilante code. I've always thought that heroes in general, including Batman, see themselves more as police officers than judges. They'll do what it takes to see that criminals are brought to justice, but they don't dispense justice themselves.

It would be more plausible for Bruce to build a private prison and contract with the city to take on its prisoners. I don't know this for certain, but I'm guessing there are some privatized prisons.

I agree with this.

another thing is that Bruce strongly believes that the villians can all be rehabilitated (with the exception of maybe the Joker).and should be given the chance to properly. Paul Dini had Bruce Wayne on the parole committee that released Harley Quin for instance. Why he hasn't taken a firmer hand in the managment of Arkham is a great question for a future story though. Wayne Corp should be involved in prisoner rehab on a massive scale.

The American private prison industry is huge btw. There's more than 250 and they generally have higher rates of prisoner violence,"cost-saving" rehabilitation and support progams (i.e. shabby programs) and subsequent prisoner recividism (criminals re-offending after they're released). What's scary though is the power of the prison lobby in influencing sentencing laws to ensure there's a constant stream of new prisoners coming in. Private industries require constant growth after all. It's a massivly profitable scheme that keeps thousands of people in work (including police, clerks, lawyers, etc) that wouldn't exist without the War on Drugs for example.

Static-Pulse

10-03-2009, 10:09 AM

Private industries require constant growth after all. It's a massivly profitable scheme that keeps thousands of people in work (including police, clerks, lawyers, etc) that wouldn't exist without the War on Drugs for example.

Super-heroism as a growth industry? Hmm. Let's see, if you leak basic super-tech and mutagens to the street, breeding a generation of super-villains, then you need entirely new fields of criminal justice, psychology, restraint engineering, prison systems, etc. to keep them under wraps.

Wouldn't it be neat if the explosion of villains was indirectly (by shell company semantics only) the responsibility of LexCorp, because he was planning on monopolizing the super-heroism industry with his Lex-Men guards, etc. Then Superman and Batman show up and start giving heroics away for free.

the-wolf

10-03-2009, 10:53 AM

Batman is against killing. From his POV, what happens if he doesn't come back from patrol one night? The prisoners die.

Though I guess you could work around this problem too.

DetectiveDupin

10-03-2009, 10:54 AM

Well, because a prison requires ownership of land, and people would know it's Bruce Wayne therefore he wouldnt have a secret identity anymore. Building one in secret and without public knowledge is highly unethical, and I doubt Batman would do something like that.

Mat001

10-03-2009, 11:47 AM

In "The Last Arkham", Bruce makes it clear that no matter how secured Arkham is made, the inmates can still get out. He even proved it himself during the arc by getting free twice. And as we saw in "Knightfall", someone else can get them out.

NeoStar9X

10-03-2009, 05:07 PM

Alan2099

10-03-2009, 05:10 PM

That's right! Forget the Gotham Prisons! Batman is going to make his own prison! With blackjack! And Hookers! In fact, forget the prison part!

Vakanai

10-03-2009, 05:56 PM

That's right! Forget the Gotham Prisons! Batman is going to make his own prison! With blackjack! And Hookers! In fact, forget the prison part!

I'd like to see this as a miniseries or graphic novel.

lead sharp

10-03-2009, 06:11 PM

Use JLA resources and build one on an asteroid somewhere in a stable orbit, as someone mentioned staff it with OMACs.

Mat001

10-03-2009, 06:40 PM

You have these comics where civilians are killed left and right by villains. It has to be shown how dangerous they are. Are trials even required anymore? Why isn't anyone simply putting bullets through their heads as soon as they captured or well recaptured for the 5th time after adding several dozen or so new victims to their list. This whole escaping from jail wouldn't be an issue if a bit of logic was allowed to exist.

I know Batman doesn't killed but are we to seriously believe that once he's handed over criminals Gotham PD wouldn't be willing to put a bullet in Joker's head for example from a distant at the next available opportunity? Hell just have a team ready in the next room ready to gun him down as soon as he's forced into the room while still cuffed. Sure your "good" cops might not but there should be enough corrupt ones to step up to the plate right?

It's not like Batman is dealing with criminals that simply steal things. He's dealing with cold hearted, psycho murders that kill innocent people left and right.

The police follow Jim Gordon's mandate that they are to follow the letter of the law when dealing with Batman's rogues like the Joker and Two-Face. That means not taking the law into their own hands. Despite the crimes they commit, they are still subject to the rights and privliges as normal criminals. It's why no one shot OJ Simpson, Jeffery Dahmer or Charles Manson while in police custody. Only Dahmer has been killed and that was by an inmate while in prison. And the corrupt cops in Gotham know that they have to not only answer to IA, but to Batman.

carabas

10-04-2009, 01:13 AM

Dahme, Manson, and OJ didn't have a habit of treating a prison sentence as a short vacation.
I the real world, a hypothetical serial killer who has been arrested and convicted 12 times, but keeps on killing regardles, would not likely to be arrested a 13th time.

OverMaster

10-04-2009, 09:38 AM

Mat001

10-04-2009, 02:05 PM

Vakanai

10-04-2009, 02:34 PM

The police officer would have to face down his own prison sentence, in real life. Cops can only kill in self defense of another. Meaning if a criminal is in custody and they die, there would be an investigation and possible arrests made. Even corrupt cops will be investigated, tried and quite possibly convicted.

In which case they'll just escape, disguise themselves, rework their way into law enforcement, do the corrupt killing of super serial killers again, be investigated, thrown back in jail, where they will escape again, ad infinitum.
Hey, no reason for it not to be a two way streak.:biggrin:

carabas

10-04-2009, 05:47 PM

The police officer would have to face down his own prison sentence, in real life.That is assuming that the killing wouldn't be ruled a self-defense or defense of others, and that a jury could be found that would convict him.

Mat001

10-05-2009, 01:16 PM

Vakanai

10-05-2009, 01:34 PM

I still say, if the local prisons and asylums are that easy to break out of that Joker does it almost weekly, no reason a killer cop shouldn't take his chances.

carabas

10-05-2009, 01:48 PM

vitruvian

10-06-2009, 09:45 AM

If a criminal is in police custody and does nothing to warrant being killed, then it isn't self-defense. It's called murder. If the inmate tries to escape and take a hostage, that's justified. A criminal sitting pretty and has a bullet in the skull, not so much.

None of which means that they couldn't set up the grounds of Arkham and Blackgate with antipersonnel mines - prison authorities are allowed to use lethal force to prevent escapes, after all. Heck, neck collars or even implants that explode if the prisoner goes off the grounds would probably even pass legal muster at this point... maybe they can ask Amanda Waller for the design she used to use for the Suicide Squad. I don't recall too many supervillans figuring out how to hack those things...

vitruvian

10-06-2009, 09:47 AM

Ah, but what if he is not in police custody? What if he died while 'resisting arrest'? Which is the most likely way this sort of thing would happen IMO.

This much is true. Shoot, given the Joker's penchant for having lethal toys built into flower lapels and the like, unless his hands are already bound by the time the regular cops appear on the scene (and maybe even then - he's been known to use fake arms), they are probably justified in opening fire on sight.

bad trotsky

10-06-2009, 10:03 AM

Interesting. But really if you had a prison no one could break out of then you would not be able to tell any more stories with that villian.

Jokers in the Wayne Foundation Pen. He can't get out. Write about someone else. "oh heck Batman has arrested them all and put them in jail." Uh make a new villian quick!

Mat001

10-06-2009, 01:42 PM

Ah, but what if he is not in police custody? What if he died while 'resisting arrest'? Which is the most likely way this sort of thing would happen IMO.

That is acceptable, but an investigation will still occur to determine if it was a clean kill or not. If the suspect puts up a fight, then it is justified. If he did nothing wrong and he was killed for it, then every effort will be made to determine what really happened.

I still say, if the local prisons and asylums are that easy to break out of that Joker does it almost weekly, no reason a killer cop shouldn't take his chances.

Course, that's not to say that he'd succeed. The Joker has killed a number of cops over the years.

None of which means that they couldn't set up the grounds of Arkham and Blackgate with antipersonnel mines - prison authorities are allowed to use lethal force to prevent escapes, after all. Heck, neck collars or even implants that explode if the prisoner goes off the grounds would probably even pass legal muster at this point... maybe they can ask Amanda Waller for the design she used to use for the Suicide Squad. I don't recall too many supervillans figuring out how to hack those things...

The Joker would find a way to get out of it. Most of the Squad were made up of criminals who aren't as smart as someone like Lex Luthor or the Joker. As to using mines, prisons in real life aren't allowed to use them. Guns are allowed, but the Joker's managed to get the weapons away from the guards and use it against them. Or he uses another method that prevents the guards from opening fire. Sometimes he takes a hostage in order to escape. The Joker's even created escape tunnels which would avoid mines and guards.

This much is true. Shoot, given the Joker's penchant for having lethal toys built into flower lapels and the like, unless his hands are already bound by the time the regular cops appear on the scene (and maybe even then - he's been known to use fake arms), they are probably justified in opening fire on sight.

In Showcase '94 #2, the Joker replaced a tooth with a poison gas capsule that he broke, in order to escape his goons that had turned on him and had him bound.

As to the rest, most likely Jim Gordon has standing orders to not fire on the Joker unless provoked. Usually he'd want them to wait until Batman showed up to deal with the Joker.

carabas

10-06-2009, 03:19 PM

That is acceptable, but an investigation will still occur to determine if it was a clean kill or not. If the suspect puts up a fight, then it is justified. If he did nothing wrong and he was killed for it, then every effort will be made to determine what really happened.No internal affairs officer is sreiously going to investigate the Joker's death all that intensively.

Shot through the back of the head at point blank range, while handcuffed and beaten into unconsciousnes? Looks bad. Oh, it's the Joker? Looks like self-defense to me.

Second_Stringer

10-17-2009, 01:20 PM

Why doesn't every superhero do that?!

I would love to see that happen in a comic, though I guess if something goes wrong you'd have your entire rogue's gallery in your basement waiting bsh your brains out.

Mat001

10-17-2009, 04:25 PM

No internal affairs officer is sreiously going to investigate the Joker's death all that intensively.

Shot through the back of the head at point blank range, while handcuffed and beaten into unconsciousnes? Looks bad. Oh, it's the Joker? Looks like self-defense to me.

You really think that? Just because he's the worst mass murderer, doesn't mean that they won't follow the law. Not to mention that Batman would scare them into investigating. Or do it himself and bring in the cop(s) who did it.

Tequilamokinbrd

10-17-2009, 04:27 PM

And on the op, not just create his own jail, but why he doesn't simply maim each and every criminal he catches. make them multiple amputees. not killing them, but essentially, putting them out of the game. :wink:

Because Two-Face can order around a gang whether he has two legs or not.

That approach may work with Killer Croc and a handful of his other foes, but the vast majority of his baddies are mastermind types, not hand to hand types.

Even a bruiser like Bane is a chess player type.

CYOTI

10-17-2009, 10:21 PM

I guess then he should use Zatanna and MM to mentally disable opponents like the Joker and Two-Face.

True Herald

10-17-2009, 11:01 PM

Seek out the 90s 12 part series (technically a cancelled ongoing, but they tied it up so well that it feels like a miniseries), Chain Gang War.

That's what I was going to say. :smile:

Scott Taylor

10-17-2009, 11:06 PM

Ok most of all, he doesn't do this because his criminals are insane. Arkham Asylum is not a "prison," it is a nuthouse. That also happens to incarcerate people behind bars. It is for evaluation, treatment, protection, and disposition of its inmates. Batman just is simply not qualified to offer those services, nor would he since its the state's job. Batman works with the authorities, not against them.

Besides, to imprison them in such a way that would ensure their incarceration forever would be to not give them any rehabilitative efforts at all.

Mundungus

10-18-2009, 12:14 AM

Dramatic effect de-emphasizes the obvious and emphasizes the potential conflict.

carabas

10-18-2009, 03:13 AM

You really think that? Just because he's the worst mass murderer, doesn't mean that they won't follow the law. Not to mention that Batman would scare them into investigating. Or do it himself and bring in the cop(s) who did it.We have nothing that is even remotely comparable to the Joker in real life.
He is an unstoppabe force of nature, a walking abbatoir that even Batman can only slow down and never actually stop.
So yes, I think that if a cop were to take matters into his own hands, nobody would make much of a fuzz about it.

Alan2099

10-18-2009, 08:42 AM

You really think that? Just because he's the worst mass murderer, doesn't mean that they won't follow the law. Not to mention that Batman would scare them into investigating. Or do it himself and bring in the cop(s) who did it.
Batman probably would, but I'd be disapointed in him if he actually did. As for regualr cops, well, cops or not, they're still human.

MTL76

10-18-2009, 11:24 AM

He might consider it crossing a line he doesn't want to cross. As soon as he starts jailing them, he might decide he has the right to execute them too....

Agreed. It would cross the line of not being the judge, jury and executioner.

NeoStar9X

10-18-2009, 01:00 PM

We have nothing that is even remotely comparable to the Joker in real life.
He is an unstoppabe force of nature, a walking abbatoir that even Batman can only slow down and never actually stop.
So yes, I think that if a cop were to take matters into his own hands, nobody would make much of a fuzz about it.

I agree. What we have here is a mass murderer of civilians and cops. No jury in the world would believably convict the person that ended up killing the Joker in self defense or cold blood. They'd be treated as a hero of the people.

The no killing rule makes sense to a degree we your dealing with thieves, criminals who are first on the scene even if they killed someone, or things of that nature. Let them stand trial and law take it's course. Then you have people like the Joker who makes a joke out of the legal system. Is able to escape as soon as an author wants to use the character or even just because it's easier to use established villains instead of creating a new enemy.

Had the Joker and other villains not ended written as cold blooded psychopaths then them being captured and having them escape wouldn't be a problem. However there is no way people like this should even be given the chance, crazy or not, to escape. If the Joker existed for real and was caught he'd be put to death as soon as possible. He'd end up "resisting arrest" and no one would be upset about it or question it.

Batman doesn't kill and we know why. However I don't think he'd be crossing a line if he simply crushed someone's legs to the point they could no longer walk (escape). Or hands so they couldn't write or even make it so they could no longer speak (can't direct their gangs or people). Only the worst of the worst. Someone like Harley might get better but no way in someone like the Joker so reduce him to a veggie state and call it a day.

RubberLotus

10-18-2009, 01:56 PM

I don't know if this has been brought up already, but maiming, mind-wiping, or even flat-out killing Joker and co. is NOT going to work in the DCU. Some alien/god/cosmic horror will come along, make up a bullshit excuse for wanting to bring them back, and do so. Probably giving them superpowers along the way.

Does Gotham REALLY want to see Joker with psychic powers? Or Two-Face with super-speed? Or Ventriloquist with time-traveling powers?

Mat001

10-18-2009, 03:41 PM

I guess then he should use Zatanna and MM to mentally disable opponents like the Joker and Two-Face.

Funny, Bruce objected to Zatanna doing it and J'onn was outraged when he found out.

We have nothing that is even remotely comparable to the Joker in real life.
He is an unstoppabe force of nature, a walking abbatoir that even Batman can only slow down and never actually stop.
So yes, I think that if a cop were to take matters into his own hands, nobody would make much of a fuzz about it.

That's what Internal Affairs is all about. They always investigate, regardless of the criminal, they have to examine the police officers involved. Anytime a suspect dies in police custody, IA has to by law investigate. Even Charles Mansion's death, had it happened in custody in the 60's, would've been investigated. Despite the brutality of the crimes, IA would've done it. It's the law and by definition, IA follows the letter of the law.

Batman probably would, but I'd be disapointed in him if he actually did. As for regualr cops, well, cops or not, they're still human.

He already saved the Joker's life when he was on death row and when the Joker was pursued by a bounty hunter looking to kill him. Harvey Bullock and Arnold Kitch stopped Jean-Paul from killing the Joker. That's their job. Even if they hate the Joker and everything he's ever done.

I agree. What we have here is a mass murderer of civilians and cops. No jury in the world would believably convict the person that ended up killing the Joker in self defense or cold blood. They'd be treated as a hero of the people.

That's assuming a jury would be involved in such a trial. Self-defense is one thing. While the criminal is in custody, that's not good because it makes the police look bad regardless of the criminal. Because what happens the next time a criminal is killed? Who polices the police? And what happens if it comes out that the criminal suspect is not the killer or rapist? What if he was wrongly accused and the real one is out there?

carabas

10-18-2009, 03:49 PM

That's what Internal Affairs is all about. They always investigate, regardless of the criminal, they have to examine the police officers involved. Anytime a suspect dies in police custody, IA has to by law investigate. Even Charles Mansion's death, had it happened in custody in the 60's, would've been investigated. Despite the brutality of the crimes, IA would've done it. It's the law and by definition, IA follows the letter of the law.IA officers are not inhuman robots, devoid of emotion. Especially if the Joker has killed at least ten or so colleagues or friends of theirs. Which is more than likely, them being cops and all.

They will investigate. They will likely be rather forgiving as long as the cop that shot the Joker did not also swipe the Joker's loot.

carabas

10-18-2009, 03:52 PM

That's assuming a jury would be involved in such a trial. Self-defense is one thing. While the criminal is in custody, that's not good because it makes the police look bad regardless of the criminal. Because what happens the next time a criminal is killed? Who polices the police? And what happens if it comes out that the criminal suspect is not the killer or rapist? What if he was wrongly accused and the real one is out there?We are talking specifically about the Joker. Not police killings in general.

Zembo

10-18-2009, 06:20 PM

No, the reason he doesn't open a hot dog stand is because, well, why would he? It's not like he's desperate for cash. It wouldn't help him in his mission to fight crime. Everyone would be like 'Dude, what the hell are you doing? Selling hotdogs? Why the hell are you selling hotdogs? What do you mean you just felt like it? Who the hell feels like selling hotdogs? Come on, you're Batman dammit. Go out there, brood, beat up muggers, find some new kid to endanger now that Robin is competent. Hell, team up with Superman for an issue or two. Selling hotdogs. Man...'

I am vengeance! I am the night! I am the hotdog selling man!

No no, his archenemy would be the criminal known as the Master of Mustard, the Count of Ketchup, the Condiment King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condiment_King)!

Mat001

10-19-2009, 03:13 PM

We are talking specifically about the Joker. Not police killings in general.

And the police know that if they even try it, they'll have to deal with Batman who will take them down for it. Not to mention that Jim Gordon will make sure that they would be procesucted to the fullest extent of the law.

IA officers are not inhuman robots, devoid of emotion. Especially if the Joker has killed at least ten or so colleagues or friends of theirs. Which is more than likely, them being cops and all.

They will investigate. They will likely be rather forgiving as long as the cop that shot the Joker did not also swipe the Joker's loot.

And then Batman will come and make them investigate the officers again and do their jobs.

Alan2099

10-19-2009, 03:58 PM

He already saved the Joker's life when he was on death row and when the Joker was pursued by a bounty hunter looking to kill him. Harvey Bullock and Arnold Kitch stopped Jean-Paul from killing the Joker. That's their job. Even if they hate the Joker and everything he's ever done.
Then they suck at their job.

At the very core, once you get down to it and cut through all the red tape and the fine print, their job is to protect people. Letting Joker live is as far from protecting people as you can get.

And then Batman will come and make them investigate the officers again and do their jobs.
Ah. I get it. it's okay for Batman to break the rules and take the law into his own hands, but nobody else is allowed to without his permission. I see how it works now.

Joker has been written as such a one note lethal, uncontainable, and outright vile character for so long, I can't see how anybody can justify NOT taking him out back and putting a few dozen bullets through his head.

I thought batman was supposed to be about Justice, not strictly upholding the law.

Mat001

10-19-2009, 08:49 PM

Then they suck at their job.

At the very core, once you get down to it and cut through all the red tape and the fine print, their job is to protect people. Letting Joker live is as far from protecting people as you can get.

The Joker is a person as well and if Batman killed him, they'd have to take him down. Doesn't matter what the Joker has done, the law is clear. A person cannot kill another in cold blood and Jean-Paul would've done it in cold blood.

Ah. I get it. it's okay for Batman to break the rules and take the law into his own hands, but nobody else is allowed to without his permission. I see how it works now.

Batman doesn't kill in cold blood. He expects the police to behave appropriately. He takes out corrupt cops when he finds them, as seen in "Year One" and "Her Sister's Keeper". Bruce has a strong sense of justice and it extends to everyone, including scum like the Joker.

Joker has been written as such a one note lethal, uncontainable, and outright vile character for so long, I can't see how anybody can justify NOT taking him out back and putting a few dozen bullets through his head.

Because the police swore an oath to never kill in cold blood, a violation of the law. That's why the police do not do such a thing in real life. And when there has been corruption like that, it's ultimately been exposed and action was taken.

I thought batman was supposed to be about Justice, not strictly upholding the law.

He is about justice more than the law. But justice is not vengeance, which is what killing the Joker is. Batman seeks justice. He expects the police to uphold the law, something that they swore an oath to do the day they were given their badge and gun and graduated from the academy. That's why his first year was spent fighting cops. Most of the GCPD were corrupt and he had no use for corrupt cops. Jim took care a lot of that once he moved up the ladder and the rest know better than to try and cross Batman. Look at what happened to Flass, Brenden and the other SWAT cops that were corrupt. He crippled them for being corrupt.

carabas

10-20-2009, 12:33 AM

And the police know that if they even try it, they'll have to deal with Batman who will take them down for it. Not to mention that Jim Gordon will make sure that they would be procesucted to the fullest extent of the law.

And then Batman will come and make them investigate the officers again and do their jobs.No, Batman would do no such thing. Neithr would Jim Gordon fo that matter. And even if they would, I think that a lot of cops would take their chances if given the opportunity. Real life cops, not fictional ones that have no real personalities and are but extras in a Batman comic.

carabas

10-20-2009, 12:36 AM

He is about justice more than the law. But justice is not vengeance, which is what killing the Joker is.Killing the Joker is always self-defence or defense of others, regardles of the circumstances. Because it is only a matter of time before he gets aout again and kills you, or your family, or a few dozen others.

Mat001

10-20-2009, 01:11 PM

No, Batman would do no such thing. Neithr would Jim Gordon fo that matter. And even if they would, I think that a lot of cops would take their chances if given the opportunity. Real life cops, not fictional ones that have no real personalities and are but extras in a Batman comic.

Jim stopped Batman from killing the Joker in "Hush". Telling Bruce that he would kill him if he had to. And at the very least, he'd arrest him for it. And Batman would go after the cops who did it, because they do not have the authority to abuse their power like that and he would not tolerate any police officer who started killing his enemies while in police custody. And the police are just as scared of Batman as they are of the Joker. And real life cops obey the law as we've seen when it comes to this.

Killing the Joker is always self-defence or defense of others, regardles of the circumstances. Because it is only a matter of time before he gets aout again and kills you, or your family, or a few dozen others.

Self-defense by the letter of the law is if a criminal is threatening a person, then the police have the option to kill if they believe that they have no other choice. But if a criminal is in police custody, the right to kill a suspect is taken away unless the criminal gets free and attempts to do harm to an officer. A police officer also carries tazers and pepper spray to detain a criminal. All stations have cameras to keep an eye on the officers and the suspects. There are also officers who would rat out their fellow cops.

Killing a suspect because he might kill again, is not self-defense. It is murder and pre-meditated at that, because you are planning to remove a threat.

Alan2099

10-20-2009, 01:13 PM

The Joker is a person as well
No he's not. A decade or two ago, maybe. Nowadays he's just a rabid dog that needs to be put down.

carabas

10-20-2009, 01:40 PM

Stuff.Dude, if you are not even going to acknowledge that some cops are going to have a somewhat more pragmatic view on justice than ol' Pointy-Ears, then I see no point debating this any longer.

Ziggy Stardust

10-20-2009, 01:55 PM

Alan2099

10-20-2009, 02:10 PM

'Cause Bruce contacted Reed Richards and asked him how his prison fared.

"Tip #1. Don't lock all your friends in it. It's for your enemies."

Mat001

10-21-2009, 01:04 PM

No he's not. A decade or two ago, maybe. Nowadays he's just a rabid dog that needs to be put down.

He's still human regardless of all that he's done and will ever do. Ergo, he still has the rights that we are subject to have.

Dude, if you are not even going to acknowledge that some cops are going to have a somewhat more pragmatic view on justice than ol' Pointy-Ears, then I see no point debating this any longer.

That can have that pragmatic view, but they know better than to cross a guy known for crippling cops for shooting a cat just to get to him. He put one through a wall and he was left in the hospital for some time.

Then there's the fact that the Joker can get loose and kill said cop, before he could even blink. Not to mention that he would have someone get him loose, if he believed that his life was in danger. If he can get out of his straight jacket with ease, what makes you think he couldn't slip off a pair of handcuffs and snap the neck of the cop who tried to kill him.

Besides, Batman stopped leaving the Joker with the police after taking him down. He's been taking him to Arkham directly, rather than leaving him to the police. Just on the off chance he doesn't escape again.

RubberLotus

10-21-2009, 01:31 PM

No he's not. A decade or two ago, maybe. Nowadays he's just a rabid dog that needs to be put down.

Hey, if we get lucky, there might be another giant world-resetting Crisis five to ten years down the line that'll give Joker a clean slate (relatively speaking).

Seriously though, DC should have some sort of mandate limiting the number of Joker stories done per year, or at least the number of people Joker's allowed to kill in a single storyline. He should still kill once in a while, but it should mostly be hinted at, like in the DCAU. Giving him a massive body count consisting of throwaway characters just to make him "scary" is, in my opinion, just plain stupid.

carabas

10-21-2009, 02:26 PM

He's still human regardless of all that he's done and will ever do. Ergo, he still has the rights that we are subject to have.

That can have that pragmatic view, but they know better than to cross a guy known for crippling cops for shooting a cat just to get to him. He put one through a wall and he was left in the hospital for some time.

Then there's the fact that the Joker can get loose and kill said cop, before he could even blink. Not to mention that he would have someone get him loose, if he believed that his life was in danger. If he can get out of his straight jacket with ease, what makes you think he couldn't slip off a pair of handcuffs and snap the neck of the cop who tried to kill him.

Besides, Batman stopped leaving the Joker with the police after taking him down. He's been taking him to Arkham directly, rather than leaving him to the police. Just on the off chance he doesn't escape again.Yeah, we're done here. Now you're just being silly.

Mat001

10-22-2009, 01:38 PM

Slam_Bradley

10-22-2009, 01:45 PM

Because Doc Savage already did it.

carabas

10-22-2009, 02:35 PM

How is telling the truth silly? I'm pointing out established facts from various Bat books. Batman may hate the Joker, but he's not going to sit by quietly and let him be killed. And if he cannot stop that, he will take down his killers. And people fear Batman, which is an established fact.The question is not "Would Batman hunt down the hero that killed the Joker?" The question is, "Would a police officer kill the Joker given the opportunity?"

I reckon many a law abiding inhabitant of Gotham City would gladly risk facing the Batman, or even the execution chamber, to murder the Joker.