Batman & Robin #5 - It's all about the hair

[FailureByDesign]

http://uk.comics.ign.com/articles/103/1030612p1.html

Pretty much confirms its Jason, or do you think its just a red herring?

[numberONE]

I think it's Jason. Thanks for the link. Looking forward to the issue.

[dreyga2000]

Honestly, it was never attempted to be mystery to begin with, it was alarming obvious from even before the story came out the Red Hood was Jason Todd.... I still am perplexed why the idea it was someone else was even entertained to begin with...

If it walks like a horse, talks like a horse and looks like a horse... Don't guess Zebra just go with horse...

[AJM]

Great preview, can't wait.

As for Red Hood, it does seem to suggest that it's Jason, yes, although there's no confirmation from the Red Hood himself. It's interesting that Damian brings up the Joker here too - the Joker would certainly be aware of the changing Robins, so this could lend credence to that idea (although where he got the muscles is a mystery). There's an interesting Red Hood line too - "Still with the attitude" he says to Damian, implying a previous relationship. Let's see - knowledge of the Bat-family, weapons expert, plenty of money, ridding Gotham of crime, relationship with Damian... is it his grandfather? Could it be Ra's Al Ghul?

Remember that the solicitations say that the Red Hood's identity isn't revealed until next issue, so the Jason remark must be a red herring. The preview for what was to be the next arc (now the fourth, by Irving) featured what looked like a Lazarus Pit too...

I think it's Ra's.

[the goddamn batman]

Still not really loving the art but enjoying the story enough to hang in for Tan's few issues. Maybe this issue will be better than the last.

[AJM]

Honestly, it was never attempted to be mystery to begin with, it was alarming obvious from even before the story came out the Red Hood was Jason Todd.... I still am perplexed why the idea it was someone else was even entertained to begin with...

Read my above post - if the solicitations have promised the Red Hood reveals his identity in the next issue, then i think this preview actually proves the opposite.

[the goddamn batman]

Personally, the idea of Ra's is much more interesting to me than Jason.

[AJM]

Personally, the idea of Ra's is much more interesting to me than Jason.

I think it would be pretty cool too. The next issue solicitation says that the Red Hood has info about Bruce too - how would Jason know anything about that? Maybe Ra's offers to try and resurrect him... maybe that's how the next arc could tie into Blackest Night as Cameron Stewart confirmed... maybe, maybe, maybe - this is fun!

[the goddamn batman]

The idea of Ra's, as I think about it more is more interesting than Jason, because, well frankly, I find Jason rather uninteresting. But is it really something that seems like a Ra's thing to do? Would Ra's dress up like this and pretend to be the Red Hood? I dunno...

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Read my above post - if the solicitations have promised the Red Hood reveals his identity in the next issue, then i think this preview actually proves the opposite.

Actually, the solicits do not say that the Red Hood reveals himself in the next issue, it says that the Red Hood reveals himself to Batman. The distinction is a big deal. Saying that issue 6 has the moment where Batman learns the identity isn't the same as saying that the identity remains unknown to the readers until issue 6.

That being said, you could totally be right, I just don't think it is a guarantee.

[the goddamn batman]

If we haven't been given the reveal yet either, we'll probably find out when Batman does. Or not, but it seems resonable to me.

[nepenthes]

As I've been saying all along, the mystery of the new Red Hood is about as mysterious as the identity of the new Batman, the new Red Robin, the new Batgirl ever were. i.e. never a mystery at all.


"put the umbrella down Penguin!" :cool: ha, love it

[AJM]

Actually, the solicits do not say that the Red Hood reveals himself in the next issue, it says that the Red Hood reveals himself to Batman. The distinction is a big deal. Saying that issue 6 has the moment where Batman learns the identity isn't the same as saying that the identity remains unknown to the readers until issue 6.

That being said, you could totally be right, I just don't think it is a guarantee.

But in the preview, it's Batman who claims it's Jason Todd as he's face to face with Red Hood - Batman is the reason readers think this. Therefore, if he gets a surprise next issue, so do we.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

But in the preview, it's Batman who claims it's Jason Todd as he's face to face with Red Hood - Batman is the reason readers think this. Therefore, if he gets a surprise next issue, so do we.

Based on the preview pages and the final page of the previous issue, yes Dick's reaction is one of the reasons for thinking it is Jason for the reason readers (there is other evidence in favor of Jason outside of the comics itself as well as throughout issue 4). I was merely suggesting that "the Red Hood reveals himself to Batman" doesn't mean that the readers won't see a reveal that Dick doesn't at some point in issue 5, or that Dick won't be correct in his guess already, just that the moment on panel where he is unmasked in front of Dick won't occur until issue 6. As I said, I don't think you are wrong necessarily, just that this doesn't prove anything in and of itself.

[Angelo2113]

Could it possibly be Hush?

[Redrumbin]

Could it possibly be Hush?

Nope, Hush is under close surveillance...

This preview LOOKS BADASS!

I'm liking this dynamic between Damian and Todd...

[Captain Jim]

I can't help thinking about the first couple of issues of Battle of the Cowl, where so many people were insisting that Gatman was Azrael and not Jason--despite all the evidence to the contrary. :rolleyes:

[RonnieThunderbolts]

I can't help thinking about the first couple of issues of Battle of the Cowl, where so many people were insisting that Gatman was Azrael and not Jason--despite all the evidence to the contrary. :rolleyes:

I know what you mean Jim.

[vickvega]

cant wait. From that dialogue, it seems like Jason Todd.

[NickFury90]

Honestly, it was never attempted to be mystery to begin with, it was alarming obvious from even before the story came out the Red Hood was Jason Todd.... I still am perplexed why the idea it was someone else was even entertained to begin with...


The reason people are wondering who it is, is because its written by Grant Morrison. It reminds me of the guys who try to come up with what Chubby from Seaguy was suppose to represent.

Sometimes, a floating cigar-chomping talking fish is just a floating cigar-chomping talking fish.

[SpideyZERO]

Badass preview. Looking forward to the fight between two dynamic duos

[WorstThingUS]

Badass preview. Looking forward to the fight between two dynamic duos

What fight? Jason was never on Dick's level and unless this girl was trained by the League of Assassins since birth as well, she's no match for Damien.

And I'm not up to date on Jason's body count. Has he killed innocent people like the two cops in the previous issue before? Throws yet another layer of dumb on Tim's decision to let him go free.

[Will.S]

I'm glad that Alex Sinclair is back on colors again at least.

[Karl O'Neill]

Here is the preview for next weeks issue of morrisons awesome series.

Tan's art is stil fine to me.

so the red hood is............

http://ie.comics.ign.com/articles/103/1030612p1.html

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/103/1030612/batman-and-robin-20091001021553062-000.jpg

[Armadillo]

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=288931
There is already a thread.

[Karl O'Neill]

Crap!

Mods. Please merge.

Also, Can someone kindly post the images of the preview into the thread for me, Because I can't make them big on ign.

Thanks!

[Karl O'Neill]

From what i can see, which is not much. it looks good.

[Jorriss]

What fight? Jason was never on Dick's level and unless this girl was trained by the League of Assassins since birth as well, she's no match for Damien.
Seriously, this annoys me significantly. Since when is Jason a viable threat to Dick? Or hell, Tim at this point?

[dreyga2000]

Seriously, this annoys me significantly. Since when is Jason a viable threat to Dick? Or hell, Tim at this point?

When he came back from the dead and fought Batman to a standstill one on one....

Jason came back to be a Batman villan and did a pretty good job of it.... Am I the only one who remembers this???

[nightwing45]

The art looks great, but god; this is hilarious! Morrison is tripping in his jealously of Miller. Total apege. I guess if you can't do a bad ass Batman; fake it. :rolleyes:

[Mikey Brown]

Nightwing, your hatred for Morrison is painfully obvious and ruins your credibility. And I thought the point of the new red hood was it wasnt Jason Todd, but a mystery? Am I wrong here?

[dreyga2000]

Nightwing, your hatred for Morrison is painfully obvious and ruins your credibility. And I thought the point of the new red hood was it wasnt Jason Todd, but a mystery? Am I wrong here?

I'm assuming...

The point was to reinvent Jason Todd... It's something Morrison likes to do is reinvent concepts that haven't seemed to work...

Take the orginal concept of Jason Todd becoming an anti-Batman and take it to the next level by giving him a more Batman-like costume and a teen sidekick....

[Yawn]

Nightwing, your hatred for Morrison is painfully obvious and ruins your credibility. And I thought the point of the new red hood was it wasnt Jason Todd, but a mystery? Am I wrong here?

Or as blasphemous as it sounds he may not like every single thing The Morrison does.Not liking something doesn't mean he has a burning hatred of GM.Especially when he's mentioned more then once that GM can be better then Alan Moore.

The art for this issue looks fine.

[Mikey Brown]

So do you go by Yawn or Nightwing?

[Doc Goblin]

I don't think it's unreasonable for people to suspect this Red Hood isn't really Jason Todd. The point about the solicitation for Batman and Robin #6 is a good one. If this is Jason, what's being revealed to Batman in that issue? "Behold, I am exactly who you think I am"? That doesn't really make sense. But granted, solicitations can be way off sometimes.

Personally, I kind of hope this turns out to be someone other than Jason. This guy is acting a little goofy for Jason.

[Jake V]

The art looks great, but god; this is hilarious! Morrison is tripping in his jealously of Miller. Total apege. I guess if you can't do a bad ass Batman; fake it. :rolleyes:
What about any of this is at all similar to anything Miller has written?

Even the person in the Batman costume is different.

[Mikey Brown]

Yea and in a few teasers its said it was a new Red Hood. That leads me to believe its not Jason. I dont thing Grant wants to mess with Jason, that seems more of a Winick character to me.

[nepenthes]

What fight? Jason was never on Dick's level and unless this girl was trained by the League of Assassins since birth as well, she's no match for Damien.

Jason Todd also spent time with Talia and the League of Assassins. I expect Scarlet shouldn't be much of a problem though...

[AJM]

The point about the solicitation for Batman and Robin #6 is a good one. If this is Jason, what's being revealed to Batman in that issue? "Behold, I am exactly who you think I am"? That doesn't really make sense.

That was exactly what i was trying to say, thank you!

[nightwing45]

Nightwing, your hatred for Morrison is painfully obvious and ruins your credibility. And I thought the point of the new red hood was it wasnt Jason Todd, but a mystery? Am I wrong here?

I don't care about fan credibility; secondly Batman refered to Red Hood as Jason Todd, the Fake Robin insulted him, and Red Hood responded to it. You would have noticed that had you read the five pages of interior art.

[AJM]

The art looks great, but god; this is hilarious! Morrison is tripping in his jealously of Miller. Total apege. I guess if you can't do a bad ass Batman; fake it. :rolleyes:

I really don't know what you're talking about, but then i'm not sure you do either.

[AJM]

I don't care about fan credibility; secondly Batman refered to Red Hood as Jason Todd, the Fake Robin insulted him, and Red Hood responded to it. You would have noticed that had you read the five pages of interior art.

All this proves is that Batman and Robin's first impression is that it's Jason, the Red Hood confirmed nothing.

And 'Fake' Robin? Why not 'Fake' Batman too?

And how is Damian any less entitled to the costume than Jason or Tim were? Considering Damian is Bruce's real son, i'd say he was the natural heir.

[nightwing45]

All this proves is that Batman and Robin's first impression is that it's Jason, the Red Hood confirmed nothing.

And 'Fake' Robin? Why not 'Fake' Batman too?

And how is Damian any less entitled to the costume than Jason or Tim were? Considering Damian is Bruce's real son, i'd say he was the natural heir.

Dick has more than earned the right to pick up the mantle; the problem being as he is currently written by Winick, and I suppose Morrison, he can't perform the job Bruce did. By acting like a show boater, it would be too much of a giveaway that he was the first Robin/Nightwing and not the real Batman.

Also, here's a scan of my copy of JLA: Earth 2 since people insist I have this pathological hatred of Morrison.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb85/nightwing45/JLA--EarthII.jpg

[AJM]

Dick has more than earned the right to pick up the mantle; the problem being as he is currently written by Winick, and I suppose Morrison, he can't perform the job Bruce did. By acting like a show boater, it would be too much of a giveaway that he was the first Robin/Nightwing and not the real Batman.

Also, here's a scan of my copy of JLA: Earth 2 since people insist I have this pathological hatred of Morrison.

You haven't answered my question though - i'm curious as to why you think that Damian is any less worthy of being Robin than Jason or Tim were when they were introduced.

As for Batman, Winick has already addressed the issue regarding a more flamboyant 'Dark' Knight, and both he and Morrison have illustrated his difficulty filling the role. This has been a central theme in both Batman and Batman And Robin, so i don't see how you could possibly use this as a criticism.

[nightwing45]

You haven't answered my question though - i'm curious as to why you think that Damian is any less worthy of being Robin than Jason or Tim were when they were introduced.

As for Batman, Winick has already addressed the issue regarding a more flamboyant 'Dark' Knight, and both he and Morrison have illustrated his difficulty filling the role. This has been a central theme in both Batman and Batman And Robin, so i don't see how you could possibly use this as a criticism.


Because it's my criticism from being a Batman fan who has read a good deal of Batman stories from Denny O'Neil, Steve Englehart, Frank Miller, Chuck Dixon, and several others. All of which included superior depictions of Dick Grayson where it was shown how skilled and smart Dick was despite not being a genius like the Batman.

As for Damian; he's a psychotic with no restraint, and as Knightfall showed, the Batman and Nightwing wouldn't let a murdering psychopath run loose, or run with them. Sure, Dick's going to try to ween him off his psychotic tendencies, but we all know if Batman #666 is anything to go by, Dick dies, and Damian assumes the role during his teen years.

I don't believe Damian is deserving of the Robin role because he isn't like Tim and Bruce; he doesn't have their brilliant brains, nor is he like Dick and Jason, he doesn't possess their athleticism. What he does possess is a dark edge, one which could corrupt both mantles.

[WorstThingUS]

Jason Todd also spent time with Talia and the League of Assassins. I expect Scarlet shouldn't be much of a problem though...

Time isn't the lifetime Dick has had and Bruce has said that Jason was never as good as Dick was. For this to work, I expect to Jason employ nasty, ruthless tricks.

But Scarlet should be unconscious about five seconds in.

[AiyokuSama]

For this to work, I expect to Jason employ nasty, ruthless tricks.

You're doubting that he would? o.O

I thought it was an absolute given.

[AJM]

Because it's my criticism from being a Batman fan who has read a good deal of Batman stories from Denny O'Neil, Steve Englehart, Frank Miller, Chuck Dixon, and several others. All of which included superior depictions of Dick Grayson where it was shown how skilled and smart Dick was despite not being a genius like the Batman.

As for Damian; he's a psychotic with no restraint, and as Knightfall showed, the Batman and Nightwing wouldn't let a murdering psychopath run loose, or run with them. Sure, Dick's going to try to ween him off his psychotic tendencies, but we all know if Batman #666 is anything to go by, Dick dies, and Damian assumes the role during his teen years.

I don't believe Damian is deserving of the Robin role because he isn't like Tim and Bruce; he doesn't have their brilliant brains, nor is he like Dick and Jason, he doesn't possess their athleticism. What he does possess is a dark edge, one which could corrupt both mantles.

My point was that your criticism was the actual plot - you complain that Dick will have trouble becoming Batman when that's the whole point of the current storylines.

I've spent most of my Batman-reading years absolutely hating the entire concept of Robin - who, after all, was introduced as little more than a marketing ploy to attract young readers - but only now can i say i've begun to appreciate it. In my lifteime, Dick has grown up and went solo and i've seen the introduction of two more Robins who i never liked. But i love Damian. You say he doesn't possess athleticism - have you read Batman And Robin? He seemed incredibly agile and fast in that. Plus he's super-trained in combat, is a scientific genius - he completes the flying Batmobile technology that Batman never could - and, of course, he's the natural heir to the Bat-throne, Bruce Wayne's only true son. He was biologically engineered and born to be his father's successor - i can't think of anyone, including Dick, Jason or Tim, who deserves to be Batman's partner more than he does. The only irony is that his Dad's not Batman anymore, and his return seems to have been postponed due to the phenomenal success of the current comics.

[Mikey Brown]

^totally agree. Ive never really liked Robin except in Teen Titans by Johns. Damian adds a whole new dynamic to the Batman mythos which has never really been done before. A Robin who doesnt really want to be Robin and Bruce doesnt accept. Its a cool direction.

[Jorriss]

I don't believe Damian is deserving of the Robin role because he isn't like Tim and Bruce; he doesn't have their brilliant brains, nor is he like Dick and Jason, he doesn't possess their athleticism. What he does possess is a dark edge, one which could corrupt both mantles.
I agree he doesn't deserve to be Robin (although he is fun to read now) but for different reasons. He is clearly enormously athletic and beyond a genius, his intellect seems well beyond Tim - at least for sciences. One of my concerns is him being far too good.

[AJM]

I agree he doesn't deserve to be Robin (although he is fun to read now) but for different reasons. He is clearly enormously athletic and beyond a genius, his intellect seems well beyond Tim - at least for sciences. One of my concerns is him being far too good.

Like father, like son!

[Jorriss]

Like father, like son!
The rate Damian is going he'll blow Bruce out of the water by the time he is Dick's age.

[dreyga2000]

He isn't like Tim and Bruce; he doesn't have their brilliant brains, nor is he like Dick and Jason, he doesn't possess their athleticism.

0.0... I'm utterly confused how you came to this conclusion... Out of sheer curiousity please elborate the what led you to this...

[NeoStar9X]

When he came back from the dead and fought Batman to a standstill one on one....

Jason came back to be a Batman villan and did a pretty good job of it.... Am I the only one who remembers this???

I know, seriously. It's one thing if people don't like the character that's fine but now people are purposefully ignoring the things that have been done with him just to justify their hate.

Jason has training as a Robin, from perhaps the same teachers that Bruce had as he tried to retrace his training path after Talia helped him regain his memories, and I'm sure his time spent with Talia (remember she was help supply him) after his memories were return afforded him training time with the League of Assassins.

Lets not forget Dick, Jason, and Tim in many ways make up very important elements that are Batman. Dick is the athletic one and a good leader. Jason is the brawler (he has the most strength) and seemingly takes advantage of prep time more so then the other two. Tim is the detective of the three and the one that seems to be the most obsessive. Put that all together and you have Batman/Bruce Wayne himself.

So the idea that Jason isn't the on the level of Dick or Tim makes no sense at all. Dislike him sure but don't try to purposefully degrade/delevel him to justify your dislike.

[Mikey Brown]

Damian has shown to be very intellegent, probably more than Tim in some ways and also very agile and a good fighter. Like I said, hatred for a writer leads to making claims with no merit and destroys credibility.

[Jorriss]

So the idea that Jason isn't the on the level of Dick or Tim makes no sense at all. Dislike him sure but don't try to purposefully degrade/delevel him to justify your dislike.
Except being a brawler isn't nearly as worthwhile as the skills Dick and Tim and as Bruce pounded into our heads, he should of never let Jason into the costume because he wasn't as skilled as Dick. He didn't have Dick's potential, he doesn't have his experience and he doesn't have his training. Sure, Jason has some training but not nearly as much.

[Captain Jim]

As for Damian; he's a psychotic with no restraint, and as Knightfall showed, the Batman and Nightwing wouldn't let a murdering psychopath run loose, or run with them.

Damian is intentionally being portrayed as unlikeable, but psychotic and a psychopath? I don't think so. I also think it's an exaggeration to say he has "no" restraint.

[WorstThingUS]

So the idea that Jason isn't the on the level of Dick or Tim makes no sense at all. Dislike him sure but don't try to purposefully degrade/delevel him to justify your dislike.

Dick is literally a born acrobat giving him a physical advantage even Batman lacks as well as knowing instantly how to deal with a life and death situation (a criticism Dick himself threw at Bruce when Jason was killed). In addition to being trained by Batman Dick has more experience overall than Jason from from time with Batman, solo as Robin and with the Teen Titans. Jason doesn't have that. He's got no history before his brief time as Robin, zero solo work that we know of and a brief time with Talia. It's a non-fighter's fantasy that you can be as good in a few months as someone who's been training for years or be as good in a few years as someone who's trained a lifetime.

And I'll say it again: it was Bruce's judgment that Jason was never as good as Dick.

[nightwing45]

Damian is intentionally being portrayed as unlikeable, but psychotic and a psychopath? I don't think so. I also think it's an exaggeration to say he has "no" restraint.

Yeah, Daiman killing the assassins after him in Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghoul was really proof that he's not psychotic; nor was his attempt at murdering Tim Drake who is a superior detective to Daiman. :rolleyes:


Damian has shown to be very intellegent, probably more than Tim in some ways and also very agile and a good fighter. Like I said, hatred for a writer leads to making claims with no merit and destroys credibility.

I already said don't care about fan credibility, but you still like to tout that around; especially the idea I hate Morrison. The fact is Morrison misses more often than he hits because he gets lost in the symbolism, and/or weirdness. He's like Claremont 2.0

0.0... I'm utterly confused how you came to this conclusion... Out of sheer curiousity please elborate the what led you to this...

Simple; Marty Stu, I mean Daiman showed no other skills other than some martial arts training in the beginning of Morrison's run, and he was constantly outmatched except for when he battled Tim who he attacked for no good reason. Of course, Tim solo has beaten the likes of Joker, King Snake, etc. Who can Daiman claim that he's beat? Tim who wasn't even looking for a fight?


My point was that your criticism was the actual plot - you complain that Dick will have trouble becoming Batman when that's the whole point of the current storylines.

I've spent most of my Batman-reading years absolutely hating the entire concept of Robin - who, after all, was introduced as little more than a marketing ploy to attract young readers - but only now can i say i've begun to appreciate it. In my lifteime, Dick has grown up and went solo and i've seen the introduction of two more Robins who i never liked. But i love Damian. You say he doesn't possess athleticism - have you read Batman And Robin? He seemed incredibly agile and fast in that. Plus he's super-trained in combat, is a scientific genius - he completes the flying Batmobile technology that Batman never could - and, of course, he's the natural heir to the Bat-throne, Bruce Wayne's only true son. He was biologically engineered and born to be his father's successor - i can't think of anyone, including Dick, Jason or Tim, who deserves to be Batman's partner more than he does. The only irony is that his Dad's not Batman anymore, and his return seems to have been postponed due to the phenomenal success of the current comics.

Yeah, because an assassin makes a good Robin. Tim was the best Robin after Dick because he was like a bridge between Bruce and Dick. He had Bruce's drive and brains; Dick's heart and guts.

All Daiman is, is a little psycho Marty Stu. Once Morrison leaves; this whole run will be ret-conned from the line, and hopefully things will go back to normal.

[DetectiveDupin]

Yeah, Daiman killing the assassins after him in Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghoul was really proof that he's not psychotic; nor was his attempt at murdering Tim Drake who is a superior detective to Daiman. :rolleyes:




I already said don't care about fan credibility, but you still like to tout that around; especially the idea I hate Morrison. The fact is Morrison misses more often than he hits because he gets lost in the symbolism, and/or weirdness. He's like Claremont 2.0



Simple; Marty Stu, I mean Daiman showed no other skills other than some martial arts training in the beginning of Morrison's run, and he was constantly outmatched except for when he battled Tim who he attacked for no good reason. Of course, Tim solo has beaten the likes of Joker, King Snake, etc. Who can Daiman claim that he's beat? Tim who wasn't even looking for a fight?




Yeah, because an assassin makes a good Robin. Tim was the best Robin after Dick because he was like a bridge between Bruce and Dick. He had Bruce's drive and brains; Dick's heart and guts.

All Daiman is, is a little psycho Marty Stu. Once Morrison leaves; this whole run will be ret-conned from the line, and hopefully things will go back to normal.

Damian was raised and trained by the League of Assassins. You really expect him not knowing how to or trying to kill? A large part of what I feel Bruce took him in for is to guide him, rather than leaving him be. Or do you honestly believe that being a child isn't the most impressionable state a person is ever in? It's not Damian's fault he is the way he is. Removing what he saw as a rival (Tim) is how he knows to get to what he wants. That was clearly explained in Batman and Son. Again, there is a clear distinction between a child like Damian and an adult like Jean-Paul Valley making those decisions.


When you say Morrison hits or misses like Claremont 2.0, and he gets lost in symbolism, you should add IMO or IMHO because that isn't a true statement for everyone.

Again, Damian has been training his entire life. It is unfair, but he is a better martial artist than Tim and outclasses him in that. Tim's strong point isn't his martial arts ability either- it's his brain. And beating the Joker in a fist fight is no great feat, the Joker's martial arts ability isn't exactly renowned.

Tim was a great Robin, but I think the biggest reason why you're so against this story is because it changed a character's ID that you clearly like. Just accept it and move on. I didn't like Hawk-eye being Ronin, but there was nothing I could do about it.

And do you know for a fact it's being retconned? You're welcome to share your sources. And even if you do believe that, than why gripe about it?

Btw it's spelled D-a-m-i-a-n not Daiman.

[Mikey Brown]

Never have I read anything by Morrison and thought "man hes getting lost in symbolism just like Claremont". Those two writers couldnt be more dissimiliar. Im not sure where you are getting that. The reason I say you hate Morrison is because you have insulted him on these boards and in the Avengers boards. Just because you own one book by him proves nothing. I own many books by writers I dont like. Its just very obvious your dislike for him effects your view on his storys. Im getting to far off topic so Ill let you do your thing Nightwing.

[DetectiveDupin]

Never have I read anything by Morrison and thought "man hes getting lost in symbolism just like Claremont". Those two writers couldnt be more dissimiliar. Im not sure where you are getting that. The reason I say you hate Morrison is because you have insulted him on these boards and in the Avengers boards. Just because you own one book by him proves nothing. I own many books by writers I dont like. Its just very obvious your dislike for him effects your view on his storys. Im getting to far off topic so Ill let you do your thing Nightwing.

I don't see the similarity between Claremont and Morrison either.

[Munkiman]

Probably not Jason. Too obvious.

I don't like how Scarlet's Dollatron-mask is drawn here, it looks too smooth compared to how Quitely drew it.

[Captain Jim]

Once Morrison leaves; this whole run will be ret-conned from the line

Only in your dreams. :rolleyes:

[nightwing45]

Only in your dreams. :rolleyes:


Nope, that's the way business works; Jim.

[DetectiveDupin]

Nope, that's the way business works; Jim.

So you're completely self-assured that this will be retconned? Like, you've talked to DC and they said "Yeah as soon as this guy is gone we're going to completely scrap all his work even though we paid him to do it and if we didn't like the direction he was going in we could have fired him at any time. Not only that we're going to retcon an story that fans clearly dont like even though it's usually our best-selling title."

Unless they've said that, and you can fact-check, then you really shouldnt be so self-assured.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Nope, that's the way business works; Jim.

Right, just like how they've... wait, no, by far most of the runs of the past 25 years have remained untouched and not retconned away at all. That actually isn't how the business works, if it were then Jason Todd and Tim Drake, not to mention Stephanie Brown, would have all been retconned away by now. The only evidence at all to suggest Morrison's run will be retconned away is from those hopeful that will happen insisting it to be so, not from any sort of proof or tendency to indicate this as an inevitability.

[Kiryu]

Right, just like how they've... wait, no, by far most of the runs of the past 25 years have remained untouched and not retconned away at all. That actually isn't how the business works, if it were then Jason Todd and Tim Drake, not to mention Stephanie Brown, would have all been retconned away by now. The only evidence at all to suggest Morrison's run will be retconned away is from those hopeful that will happen insisting it to be so, not from any sort of proof or tendency to indicate this as an inevitability.

Seems to me like he's referring to New X-Men and Marvel's piss poor handling of that and the fallout from it.

[DetectiveDupin]

Seems to me like he's referring to New X-Men and Marvel's piss poor handling of that and the fallout from it.

Marvel kept the Summers-Frost relationship, but again, I trust DC and Morrison hasnt completely removed any way of going back to the status quo.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Seems to me like he's referring to New X-Men and Marvel's piss poor handling of that and the fallout from it.

That is true, it was handled very poorly, and while some aspects of the run were indeed retconned, it wasn't written off or undone completely, which seemed to be what nightwing45 was saying. If he meant that someone may bring an important character like Magneto back from the dead if they die in Morrison's run (who is Batman's 'Magneto?' The Joker?), but aside from that, I don't see them undoing everything Morrison has done here any more than they did at Marvel. But diamond-skinned Emma Frost, cat-like Beast and dead Jean Grey are all still parts of the X-Men line and there is little to no indication they are being disregarded imminently (I would imagine if any are guaranteed, it would be Jean's eventual return). Very rarely are runs completely undone, especially not commercially and critically successful runs like the Grant Morrison Batman stuff happening right now.

[Kiryu]

Marvel kept the Summers-Frost relationship, but again, I trust DC and Morrison hasnt completely removed any way of going back to the status quo.

I was referring to the whole Xorn/Magneto stuff, which I kind of agree with. Xorn should have been left as is, but I didn't love Morrison's take on Magneto within that story, despite being a fan of his work.

As for Batman and Robin, obviously it'll be different after he leaves. And to be honest, that doesn't bother me at all. In Batman and Robin, I love Damian. In every other title I feel like he's written piss poor and out of character and half the time way too old.

But I can hope that Morrison doesn't leave for a long long time. As I've never enjoyed the Bat-books this much.

And I trust DC too, to fall back on the tried and true and suck the life and energy of anything new dry and turn it into a retread of a classic story that had popularity no DC comic will ever have again.

That is true, it was handled very poorly, and while some aspects of the run were indeed retconned, it wasn't written off or undone completely, which seemed to be what nightwing45 was saying. If he meant that someone may bring an important character like Magneto back from the dead if they die in Morrison's run (who is Batman's 'Magneto?' The Joker?), but aside from that, I don't see them undoing everything Morrison has done here any more than they did at Marvel. But diamond-skinned Emma Frost, cat-like Beast and dead Jean Grey are all still parts of the X-Men line and there is little to no indication they are being disregarded imminently (I would imagine if any are guaranteed, it would be Jean's eventual return). Very rarely are runs completely undone, especially not commercially and critically successful runs like the Grant Morrison Batman stuff happening right now.

I don't think we'll see a complete retcon. But I don't see Damian being around after Morrison and like I said as much as I love the character, absolutely none of the other bat-writers that have used him have done it well. Even Tomasi on BN: Batman. Like all stories though, certain aspects will be phased out and some will remain.

[AJM]

As for Batman and Robin, obviously it'll be different after he leaves. And to be honest, that doesn't bother me at all. In Batman and Robin, I love Damian. In every other title I feel like he's written piss poor and out of character and half the time way too old.

Absolutely. No other writer seems to know what to do with Damian, but he's wonderful when Morrison writes him.

But I can hope that Morrison doesn't leave for a long long time. As I've never enjoyed the Bat-books this much.

I'm not sure he even will leave. I could see the series being extended to 24 issues to include Bruce's return, then i think when Morrison's done with it they should maybe just cancel it. It's all his right now, i think it would be crazy giving it to someone else... although i suppose that would depend on who it is.

[Karl O'Neill]

I can't help thinking about the first couple of issues of Battle of the Cowl, where so many people were insisting that Gatman was Azrael and not Jason--despite all the evidence to the contrary. :rolleyes:

I think because most of us are sick of jason todd and dc's constant re-working him into stories. So for me, it's a case of hoping it was someone else based on a few teases here and there.

1)Guy with rocket launcher trying to kill Black mask and collecting heads in a bag.2) Guy fightning Tim drake at titans tower and whinging all the time. 3)Guy traveling the multiverse with kyle and donna while wearing a domino mask.4) Guy wearing a new batman suit while carrying guns and now 5) back in the red hood guise quoting John milton and the other stuff.

[DetectiveDupin]

Absolutely. No other writer seems to know what to do with Damian, but he's wonderful when Morrison writes him.



I'm not sure he even will leave. I could see the series being extended to 24 issues to include Bruce's return, then i think when Morrison's done with it they should maybe just cancel it. It's all his right now, i think it would be crazy giving it to someone else... although i suppose that would depend on who it is.

I actually think Morrison himself may have Damian die at the end of this story, and Dan Didio has said that Morrison is writing Batman for as long as he wants.

[Captain Jim]

Nope, that's the way business works; Jim.

That you retcon mega-hit storylines that are a huge critical and sales success? Maybe on the Bizarro World. :rolleyes:

[DetectiveDupin]

He's going to be waiting a long time for that retcon.

On with the discussion, I love how modern Grant writes this book. Like the whole bit of Scarlet twittering.

[Ninja Man-Bats]

i can't wait for this :smile:

I read all of grant Morrrisons issues in collections, but this is the best. I havnt bought batman comics for a loooong time.

i think Red Hood is going to hurt Damian, bad. sort of like what happned to jason todd

[DetectiveDupin]

I think something big is going to happen with issue #6.

[SpideyZERO]

Well to end all debate, Red Hood's identity revealed

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000201997&tstart=0

Surprise surprise

[DetectiveDupin]

Well to end all debate, Red Hood's identity revealed

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000201997&tstart=0

Surprise surprise

It was just as obvious as who Red Robin was going to be, who the next Batman was going to be, ect.

[AJM]

Well to end all debate, Red Hood's identity revealed

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000201997&tstart=0

Surprise surprise

Gee, thanks a lot for the sarcastic 'surprise surprise' comment, you've managed to spoil it perfectly for me. Brilliant.

How thoroughly disappointing.

[DetectiveDupin]

Gee, thanks a lot for the sarcastic 'surprise surprise' comment, you've managed to spoil it perfectly for me. Brilliant.

How thoroughly disappointing.

He probably should edit that with a Spoilers warning.

[HopeLantern]

Semi Detailed Spoilers below...








Suffice to say our boy Jason Todd is Red Hood. He has red hair now with a grey streak in it. The Red is b/c that's his original hair color and Bruce made him dye his hair black to look more like Dick. The grey streak is a side effect of Jason being in the Lazarus pits. Dick realizes pretty quickly that Jason is Red Hood and Damien recognizes that Scarlet is the girl he tried to save from a few issues ago. Jason's motivation for all this is pretty "simple". He wants to take Bruce's mission to the next level. No more time for Crime fighting, now it's time for "Crime Killing". Damien attacks Jason, who handles him pretty quickly by slamming his head on the ground. Red Hood and Scarlet get away after Scarlet threatens to cut out Damien's Brainstem if Dick doesn't back down. Dick and Damien escort the Penguin to the Gotham City Police Department. One of the thugs from the brawl with Red Hood and Scarlet is badly hurt and Commissioner tries to get info from him. All he can muster is "hamingo ich coming..." In other words, "Flamingo is coming". A couple of pages later, a pink plane has landed in Gotham. Inside are a bunch of scantily clad women, all dead save one. They are all missing their faces. Flamingo apparently likes to eat his victims' faces. Eduardo Flamingo is the enforcer for the Penitente Cartel. And he's headed for Jason and Scarlet. Batman and Robin want to find Red Hood and Scarlet before Flamingo does. They do. The fight is as brutal as you'd expect from Jason Todd. And I have to say, Scarlet is pretty badass as she stabs Damien after using a taser on him. Jason shoots BatDick at point blank range directly on the Bat Symbol and knocks him unconscious. Red Hood and Scarlet take Batman and Robin back to their HQ. Scarlet thinks they were followed. Jason down plays it, then is shot in the head. His helmet shatters. The last page reveal: It's Flamingo. And he's mad.

Another great issue... did anyone else find it odd that Damien nor Dick actually referenced the fact the Jason shot Damien in Battle for the Cowl #2? .

This story is great, I'm loving the art. This is just a blast and easily one of the best books D.C. is putting out.

Oh, Related to Blackest Night, on the last page of the issue Didio says....

Batman and Robin #7 won't be out until after Blackest Night #6 as B&R #7 effects the entire DCU.

[DetectiveDupin]

Wonder what that means? Hmm........

[bongoes]

Oh, Related to Blackest Night, on the last page of the issue Didio says....

Batman and Robin #7 won't be out until after Blackest Night #6 as B&R #7 effects the entire DCU.

I guess that means #7 has to do with what happened to Bruce and why Bruce's skull is being carried around by Black Hand. It would be coming out in the BN skip month too. I think I see whats going on.
Hmm...

[the goddamn batman]

Not my favorite issue. I still don't dig Tan's art much. I know I'm alone in that but after Frank, there's not many who'd please me. But I just don't think Tan's very good at the basic story telling or layouts. Never mind the 90's Jim Lee look of his art.

Spoiler was disappointing, too.

[DetectiveDupin]

Not my favorite issue. I still don't dig Tan's art much. I know I'm alone in that but after Frank, there's not many who'd please me. But I just don't think Tan's very good at the basic story telling or layouts. Never mind the 90's Jim Lee look of his art.

Spoiler was disappointing, too.

I wish Quitely would have stuck the whole run.

[shinjiro15]

I wish Quitely would have stuck the whole run.

it would have made the collected issues memborable.

as for bruce's skull i dont get it unless bruce is reveid in B&R7 through the lazarus pit.

[shinjiro15]

okokokok unless the skull is batman from earth 2 who is already dead. remember the skull is connected to everything in blackest night........god damn zombies.

[ryerye17]

Bruce dyed Jason's hair to make it look more like Dick.

Gee...commitment issues.

[froinlaven]

I thought Damien was a ninja, how did he get owned like that??

Also,

"Like the I-Pod killed the Walkman...." Seriously??

Honestly, this issue killed the B&R high I was on. Hopefully the next one is better.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

HOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYY
S************************************************* *TT.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD.

Gah, didn't think it was possible to enjoy this series anymore than I did but this issue was so good it gave me an erection.

Little things like "Don't expect job security" from Jason to Damian and the way Dick kicked Jason's ass to how Jason just shoots him for fun to Jason' reading about brands and marketing to his little thing about iPods and walkmans.

And oh my God, Flamingo is just about the most horrific villain in recent memory (sorry Pyg) and he only has two panels showing him off. I'm so excited about the showdown next issue between him, Bats, and Red Hood that I can't contain myself. That airplane scene was one of the most evil panels I've ever seen.

God, I want to get Morrison pregnant. Issues 1-5 are 11/10.

[DetectiveDupin]

Bruce dyed Jason's hair to make it look more like Dick.

Gee...commitment issues.

So criminals wouldn't notice a change in Robins.

[ryerye17]

So criminals wouldn't notice a change in Robins.

We'd rather the explanation with the Batman with commitment issues. :tongue:

[olympichero62]

A villain who eats peoples faces? Is that what we've come to?

And honestly, they need to get Quietly back on art ASAP. Also, can anyone explain Damien getting owned like he did? It's like he conveniently:confused: forgot how to fight.

[bongoes]

I wish Quitely would have stuck the whole run.
We wouldn't be getting this issue until February then.
as for bruce's skull i dont get it unless bruce is reveid in B&R7 through the lazarus pit.
I think it's more as to what happened to Bruce. Why his skull is something Black Hand needs, how his "death" from Darkseid affected him and why he's related to Blackest Night.

[Karl O'Neill]

Excuse me, But Morrison is having my babies.

Keep your flithy paws off him.

I wouldn't mind, I am not even gay!

[Karl O'Neill]

A villain who eats peoples faces? Is that what we've come to?

And honestly, they need to get Quietly back on art ASAP. Also, can anyone explain Damien getting owned like he did? It's like he conveniently:confused: forgot how to fight.

Any type of creepiness and vileness added to a bat villain which is fresh and new is always welcome in my eyes.

The art works perfectly for this kind of action arc, dark and moody!.

Damian can fight. But this time he clearly faced someone dirthy and someone with the power of righteous indignation.

Jason=angry adult who can beat the shit out of damian any day!

[HopeLantern]

I wish Quitely would have stuck the whole run.
We wouldn't be getting this issue until February then.

Oh no he didn't!


I think it's more as to what happened to Bruce. Why his skull is something Black Hand needs, how his "death" from Darkseid affected him and why he's related to Blackest Night.

Finally. Cause Black Hand making out with Bruce's skull and licking it is becoming a bit disturbing. Even for me.

[HopeLantern]

duplicate post

[MTL76]

My vote is that it's jason Todd underneath the helmet. It would make the most sense, and I'd rather it be him than someone out of left field just for the shock value.

I thought I'd be let down by the first post-Quitely issue, but the art was very strong. I'd still rather have Quitely, though... :cool:

[BloodOps]

My vote is that it's jason Todd underneath the helmet. It would make the most sense, and I'd rather it be him than someone out of left field just for the shock value.

I thought I'd be let down by the first post-Quitely issue, but the art was very strong. I'd still rather have Quitely, though... :cool:

...uhhh...Jason Todd has been confirmed already..to be the Red Hood.


Anyway I loved the issue, I don't see why everyone has a problem with Tan's art, I got the variant cover today and it matches much better with the story, I liked it a lot more than the regular.

I didn't not like though how Batman and Robin were overpowered and defeated so easily, that wouldn't of happened to Bruce. Flamingo really does know how to make an entrance though. I'm pretty excited for the next issue.

[DetectiveDupin]

...uhhh...Jason Todd has been confirmed already..to be the Red Hood.


Anyway I loved the issue, I don't see why everyone has a problem with Tan's art, I got the variant cover today and it matches much better with the story, I liked it a lot more than the regular.

I didn't not like though how Batman and Robin were overpowered and defeated so easily, that wouldn't of happened to Bruce. Flamingo really does know how to make an entrance though. I'm pretty excited for the next issue.


Jason was a good match for Bruce in Under The Hood.

[Red Lotus]

And honestly, they need to get Quietly back on art ASAP. Also, can anyone explain Damien getting owned like he did? It's like he conveniently:confused: forgot how to fight.

Which time are you talking about. The Hood taking him out pretty easy could be because Todd is a better fighter plus Damien doesn't think he reacts and Jason used that. As for Scarlet she said her self she couldn't beat Robin, but again Damien is headstrong and it got him tasered.

[Karl O'Neill]

A villain who eats peoples faces? Is that what we've come to?

And honestly, they need to get Quietly back on art ASAP. Also, can anyone explain Damien getting owned like he did? It's like he conveniently:confused: forgot how to fight.

Todd looks wierd!

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll125/mysteryfan/batman%20and%20robin/sasha.jpg

[Hullababy]

I am absolutely loving this series.

Awesome issue!!

So is Jason dead ? I mean he got shot in the head twice :eek:

[DetectiveDupin]

I am absolutely loving this series.

Awesome issue!!

So is Jason dead ? I mean he got shot in the head twice :eek:

If I understand correctly, it isn't shown he himself was hit with the bullet, just that the hood was shattered.

[Hullababy]

If I understand correctly, it isn't shown he himself was hit with the bullet, just that the hood was shattered.

But it showed his voice kinda changing after the bullet cracked the hood.

[shinjiro15]

We wouldn't be getting this issue until February then.

I think it's more as to what happened to Bruce. Why his skull is something Black Hand needs, how his "death" from Darkseid affected him and why he's related to Blackest Night.


thanks but its still very wierd. someone whos not dead is connected to all the zombies because he''s "dead"

[olympichero62]

Which time are you talking about. The Hood taking him out pretty easy could be because Todd is a better fighter plus Damien doesn't think he reacts and Jason used that. As for Scarlet she said her self she couldn't beat Robin, but again Damien is headstrong and it got him tasered.

This is why Damien is a lame character. He's just there to get in Dick's way. He's just a 10 year old playing dress up. He talks a big game but he's shown that he is completely inept at being a crime fighter. He is 20x worse than Jason Todd ever was.

[froinlaven]

I understand the Dick vs. Jason fight, but Damien really is the worst. I thought I'd be able to stomach him, but I don't know if I can take it anymore.

[-J-]

Red Hood unmasked looks like... the Joker from Killing Joke...

The red hair is a little too convenient.

[Doc Goblin]

It took me a little while to let this issue process for me. Now, I think it was pretty good. It was a pretty fun issue with a lot of cool stuff going on.

Now... Jason Todd. My first impulse was to really hate what I was reading with him here. But it's not so bad. I think the red hair could grow on me. It's just that at first when I saw him unmasked it didn't look like Jason and I thought "Sweet, the Red Hood's identity is going ot be something more interesting than the obvious." Oh well. It's okay. I can get used to the red hair and it is kind of an interesting facet of the character. I did always think it was kind of weird to have all the Robins coincidentally look the same. So the hair is almost okay. Except for that stupid as hell gray streak. The gray/white streak of hair thing stopped being cool with Nate Grey. Plus that hair belongs to another Jason in the DCU. Jason Blood. It's stupid.

Jason Todd has been written so terribly in Battle for the Cowl, Nightwing and Countdown that this was still probably one of the better portrayals of the character. And some of it was pretty cool. His talking crap, shooting Dick and owning Damian. But then there was te stuff I was worried about when I heard Morrison would be using Jason, which was that Jason would be saddled with some concept for Morrison's that didn't really fit the character. The marketing gimmicks, catchphrases and goofy costume just don't work for Jason. Everything else about the story I like. It's just those concepts dragging it down for me.

I'm hoping after this arc Jason's character will be free to be used by Winick over in Batman.

[DarkBeast]

A villain who eats peoples faces? Is that what we've come to?

And honestly, they need to get Quietly back on art ASAP. Also, can anyone explain Damien getting owned like he did? It's like he conveniently:confused: forgot how to fight.

Damian is only 10 years old. Personally I think it's good to see him NOT portrayed as the best fighter on the planet anymore. It's all about story purposes: at first you want to impress everybody by how good of a fighter this little kid is, so in Batman & Son you show him kicking Tim's ass (which is excused because Tim didn't want to fight and didn't know the extent of what Damian could and would do)...but as his appearances wear on you want to make him a little more realistic. Sasha even says that she knows she couldn't really win against him...but she can sorta cheat and hurt him, which makes sense.

By the way, the kid's name is Damian with two "a"s, people. I mean, you guys have only seen his name in print like over a hundred times now. This is almost as bad as the "Tony DanielS" disease.

[Hazard]

I loved this issue, but the red hair bothered me more than I expected. I mean the guy spent months in a catatonic state and his hair was still black. Could this be a clue that maybe he is not Jason but someone that believes he is or am I just over thinking things?

[Sn4tcH]

DAMIAN! It's spelt DAMIAN!

[The Tall Man]

Great issue. Spoilers ahead

Loved the opening trash talk, Damian constantly getting beat up this issue makes sense. Jason did the classic side step knock-out, and Sasha just cheated with the taser/knife combo. I can't wait to see how what happened to Sasha affects Damian, I love the growth he's getting.

What's up with Sexton? That's a really interesting character being set up for something. Hopefully a cool fight with Flamingo, who is such a messed up serial killer. He's like someone I'd expect to show up in like Secret Six.

Jason looks like Rorschach, I like what's being done with him. Although it doesn't look like he'll last too long.

Last question, does the "Punishment fits the crime" poll have a shout out to the "Kill Jason Todd" poll?

[Godlike13]

Honestly this one caught me by surprise. Now ive been loving this book but when I heard about this Red Hood arc and how obvious it was that it was Jason i wasn't that excited. I don't hate Todd or anything, i actually enjoyed Gatman, i just thought it was too simple. Probably why i was in denial about it being him. Man thank god i was wrong.

This interpretation of Todd really blew me away, especially like that the red hair and the white steak is back. Its was hard enough telling them all apart and this really makes him noticeable, creepy as hell too.
Not only did Todd catch me be surprise but so did this assassins of assassins Flamingo. He look bad ass, and interesting as hell.

I also enjoyed Robins first real defeat. I like Damian, a lot, but i think this was needed. He got caught by surprised not once but twice and cost the team big. It going to be interesting to see how Batman & Robin bounce back.

Its not all good though. IMO this was by far, artistically, the worst issue yet. May be even the worst ive seen from Tan. He really disappointed me here, especially after his first issue. He had a lot of characters looking ugly, especially their face and honestly it took away something.

I really hope his art is better next issue, and that Dick gives Todd another beat down. Because that's always fun.

[F1uke]

I thought it was a solid issue. Nothing spectacular, but far above average.

My favorite thing about it: The line about Gotham voting on a Phone Poll that they liked what the Red Hood was doing. A Phone Poll, as in, the same way Jason was killed off. :biggrin:



So is Jason dead ? I mean he got shot in the head twice :eek:

But he also yelled out "Shot, I've been... which I don't think would be possible if he died from the two shots.

[CocktailXYZ]

Does this mean that when Superboy Prime reality-punched Jason back to life he also ret-conned his hair to red?

I mean the whole red-dyed-black thing was a pre-crisis thing. When the "current" Jason was introduced and he stole the tires off the batmobile he had black hair from the beginning.

Have the lines blurred between Todds?

(Not that he has been consistent in recent history as it is... :p)

[MainTheDread]

Mr. Red Hood is in some trouble now. Flamingo's not playing around.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Does this mean that when Superboy Prime reality-punched Jason back to life he also ret-conned his hair to red?

I mean the whole red-dyed-black thing was a pre-crisis thing. When the "current" Jason was introduced and he stole the tires off the batmobile he had black hair.

Have the lines blurred between Todds?

(Not that he has been consistent in recent history as it is... :p)

Seems as though they have. I don't mind, it sets him apart from Dick and Tim, and even Damian, a little, to have the physical difference. In the flashback sequences to him stealing the tires in Last Rites he already has black hair. Blaming it on Bruce, and saying it was to make him look more like Dick (which if it were Bruce, and when it was pre-Crisis, I believe it was to throw people off the suspicion that he was a new Robin), when it would appear he dyed his hair before he even met Bruce.

Thinking of it that way I like, it makes Jason that much more crazy if he blames Bruce for everything, even him going bald, when he had chosen to dye his hair completely independently from Bruce. I like Jason a great deal, and his inconsistencies of the past several years (since Under the Hood ended really) could be explained by the Lazarus Pit and the stress of resurrection easily, IMHO, and it is just kind of funny to think of him blaming Batman for everything wrong in his life to me.

[Freakzeek]

My feelings about this issue can only be summed up with one image :


http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/1254965247521.jpg

[MikeCr]

Red Hood unmasked looks like... the Joker from Killing Joke...
I think you're on to something... the "pimples" bit seemed too random to not be set-up for something involving make-up. "Faces" have been a constant theme of this book... Pyg's mask... the Dollotron's faces... Flamingo eats faces... Joker taking the face of a person he killed? Even if it doesn't pay off this way I appreciate how Morrison gets me thinking laterally like this.

Jason looks like Rorschach,
Another interesting, and I'm sure not unintentional, point!

My God I wish this arc had someone better than Tan though! Grant: START BEING MORE DEMANDING!

[strictlymonster]

I thoroughly enjoyed this issue, lots of cool things going on. I find Red Hood and Scarlet very fun to read, I mean bleach in an IV... that's good stuff. Interested to see where they're going with Oberon Sexton and the face eater.

As for the art, the only thing that bothered me is for a 10 year old some frames show Damian's face looking kinda haggard. Especially when they get back after first fight with Red Hood, he looks like a little old man.

[direction9]

great issue. proves that "who's under the hood" wasn't really ever the interesting thing about this arc at all. and there's a ton more going on.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

I think some people have set their expectations WAY TOO LOW with modern comics, and I particularly blame Jeph Loeb. Too many people were convinced that the identity of the Red Hood was going to be some mystery that would carry the arc.

Pshaw I say, Morrison doesn't need lazy red herrings like that to drive reader interest. He's too good for that. He carries the book with swagger and gusto.

/fanboy

[Captain Jim]

I wish Quitely would have stuck the whole run.

Not me. Then they would have had to run it in Batman Annual.

I loved this issue, but the red hair bothered me more than I expected. I mean the guy spent months in a catatonic state and his hair was still black. Could this be a clue that maybe he is not Jason but someone that believes he is or am I just over thinking things?

You're over thinking things.

Does this mean that when Superboy Prime reality-punched Jason back to life he also ret-conned his hair to red?

I mean the whole red-dyed-black thing was a pre-crisis thing. When the "current" Jason was introduced and he stole the tires off the batmobile he had black hair from the beginning.

Have the lines blurred between Todds?


As you mention, the original (pre-crisis) Jason Todd was a redhead. I don't find it particularly surprising that Grant ("everything happened") Morrison tweaked things a bit. He obviously rejected pre and post crisis distinctions a long time ago.

[SpideyZERO]

Great issue. Dick's warning comes true this issue. Red Hood actually uses Damian's hood to disable him. Poor Damian. His pride should take quite a few blows this issue, getting beaten by Hood and then Scarlet.

Jason is the Red Hood, no surprise there. I like that when Dick mocks him with "Stop talking in slogan". This guy clearly has issues, a crazy guy's revenge on another crazy guys indeed. But it seems Jason gets too overconfident and pays dearly when Flamingo enters the scene. Flamingo seems pretty dangerous. I still remember how big a joke he was when Damian-Batman knocked him out with a batarang throw.

Scarlet is interesting. Does the Dollotron mask enhances her ability to fight? If not she won't be able to take on Robin

Art is well...not so good in this issue, especially human faces...Jason's face also looks off...and Flamingo eats faces. Faces. There seems to be a pattern there. :biggrin:

Looking forward to the conclusion. Can't wait to see how the dynamic duo get out of this

[olympichero62]

My feelings about this issue can only be summed up with one image :


http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/1254965247521.jpg

I like how he's prancing around:smile:

[froinlaven]

By the way, the kid's name is Damian with two "a"s, people. I mean, you guys have only seen his name in print like over a hundred times now. This is almost as bad as the "Tony DanielS" disease.

I could honestly care less how the little #^#&s name is spelled...

[Sn4tcH]

I could honestly care less how the little #^#&s name is spelled...

But it's still spelled with two a's... Damian. See?

Or should we call you froinleven?

[jacob_b]

I've been dying for this issue to come out. Very sad we won't get an issue in December. This is my first Batman series and I hope at some point, I can read the stuff before this and get all caught up. I'm loving it, though, especially the art, though like someone already said, Robin is supposed to be 10 years old and he looks a lot older in some pictures. I really like how the story flows and gives you a bit of history. This Flamingo character is really freaky. Wonder how bad Jason is hurt. Wouldn't mind finding out when he was Robin either. I like how he thinks side kicks are supposed to be all about jokes and fun times. I just wonder what is so special about this Blackest Night thing, but I'll save that for the Batman and Robin 7 thread. One question, with the other just regular Batman comic, is Dick Batman in that or no?

[Sn4tcH]

Dick is Batman in all comics right now except for: Batman Confidential, Widening Gyre, and The Unseen.

[froinlaven]

But it's still spelled with two a's... Damian. See?

Or should we call you froinleven?

Sure, I won't be offended. Just give it your best shot:biggrin:

[jacob_b]

Dick is Batman in all comics right now except for: Batman Confidential, Widening Gyre, and The Unseen.

why isn't Dick Batman in those comics?

[dreyga2000]

why isn't Dick Batman in those comics?

There set in the past...

[jacob_b]

There set in the past...

confusing for a noob like me haha. I think I'll stay away from those for a while, though I did buy the Kevin Smith one.

[Godlike13]

Flamingo seems pretty dangerous. I still remember how big a joke he was when Damian-Batman knocked him out with a batarang throw

We have to wonder how developed he was a that time, same with Pyg. Im sure he's very different now.

[Rampantlad]

SPOILER







Ummm, am I the only person who noticed the huge Red Hood Red Lantern tease at the end of B&R5???

[Doug Side]

Jason Todd as a Red Lantern? God knows he has enough rage. More than enough...

[SpideyZERO]

Anyone tried to find the meaning of El Penitente, the boss who sent Flamingo and made the new drugs? I goggle it:

El Penitente is a dance of the Penitentes of the Southwest, a sect which believes in the purification from sin through severe penance. Even today, the sect practices its ancient rites, though they are banned by the Catholic Church as unholy acts. (...) El Penitente is presented in the manner of the old traveling shows. Isamu Noguchi designed the original set, including a screen, which covered over the girl- Virgin, Magdalen, Mother- when she had committed the crime, the seduction of the penitent.
In the original production, Erick was the Penitent, and Merce Cunningham, the Christ figure.

Purification from sin through severe penance? Hmmm

[Name Already Taken]

It's already been said, but I like Jason's change back to the original. Not a bad retcon either to account for the gray streak in Hush.

[Retro315]

I like the red-head return, too. I also like the pimples mention. He's only 20, after all.

I've got a full, heavy-duty annotation here:

http://retrowarbird.blogspot.com/2009/10/scarlet.html

But my biggest thoughts this issue, apart from liking it a lot more than the generally Anti-Jason Todd crowd do, is that Oberon Sexton is the Joker in disguise. I'm almost positive of it.

Oh, and the way Todd operates, and the way the news report shows the public in a nearly 50/50, but leaning towards liking Red Hood more than Batman, totally reminds me of ending of The Boondock Saints, where the news report asks all the people what they think of the Saints, and it's split 50/50.

Oh, and Flamingo? Welcome back to crazy-town, population: Professor Pyg, and now Flamingo. I'll laugh so hard if he skins Sasha's face and eats the Dollotron mask, accidentally curing her of her "doll face" and choking to death on Pyg's toxic chemicals.

[Arksy]

Grant Morrison is really in his stride in this series, it's fantastic.

[numberONE]

Pre-crisis Jason had red hair. Love that Morrison keeps bringing back silver age stuff wile still respecting the post-crisis continuity.

Overall good issue, but not my favorite. Damian didn't seem to be as good a fighter as he was before.

[pariah-1972]

Horrible art-too cluttered and dark.

Story was boring.

End of story.

[nepenthes]

My shop didn't get their shipment due to weather disturbances. And they actually have no idea when they will be in. I lied so I could leave work early for this comic. Just awful

[AJM]

Well, i suppose that there had to be a mediocre issue eventually, and this is it. After teasing us with a red herring mystery and finding that the Red Hood is only Jason, i'm really disappointed, i expected more. I'm not that interested in Jason, to be honest.

And what happened to Tan's art? This issue looks terrible and horribly inconsistent. And the next time some fool claims that Quitely draws Damian too old, i'll direct them to page 12 of this issue - absolutely horrible. And Scarlet's face was all over the place, but unfortunately not in the way it's supposed to be - it's different on every page and different from last issue.

I liked the Flamingo, though.

[Jorriss]

Overall good issue, but not my favorite. Damian didn't seem to be as good a fighter as he was before.
I am glad about that, the dude might be 11 years old by now, he shouldn't be comparable to Dick OR jason yet.

[ffaristocrat]

I feel like we're seeing the seeds of fixing Jason's resurrection and skipping past the Superboy PUNCH aspect of it.

Talia digs up Jason and drops his body in a Lazarus pit to mess with Batman. Jason, of course, comes out deranged. Then he does the "follow Bruce's footsteps" trip around the world and shows up in Hush. Clean, simple, straightforward.

[HopeLantern]

I must be slow... I just realized that Scarlett knows Batman's and Damian's identity. On the page where Todd is talking about his hair, he refers to Batman as "Grayson".

I wonder if this will have any problems for the Batman and Robin later in the arc? Or series?

[IvCNuB4]

SPOILER


Ummm, am I the only person who noticed the huge Red Hood Red Lantern tease at the end of B&R5???

Is that a Red Lantern ? It's hard to tell ....



I must be slow... I just realized that Scarlett knows Batman's and Damian's identity. On the page where Todd is talking about his hair, he refers to Batman as "Grayson".

I wonder if this will have any problems for the Batman and Robin later in the arc? Or series?

I suspect Scarlett may not be around that long to pose a problem. Or she'll become brain-dead ....

[DetectiveDupin]

Horrible art-too cluttered and dark.

Story was boring.

End of story.

Yeah, that doesn't seem to be the consensus here.

[DetectiveDupin]

Going through all these posts, the major complaint seems to be the art.

[Quinnhop]

Going through all these posts, the major complaint seems to be the art.

Which wasn't even all that bad.

Not Quitely level, granted, but few artists could match that. It's still far better than Tony Daniel's work on RIP/the average comic on the shelf.

[Sn4tcH]

Going through all these posts, the major complaint seems to be the art.

We've been spoiled, and we can't accept anything but the very finest.

[AJM]

Which wasn't even all that bad.

Not Quitely level, granted, but few artists could match that. It's still far better than Tony Daniel's work on RIP/the average comic on the shelf.

Really? I thought Daniel's RIP stuff was great. It was very moody and expressive, perfect for the story. I thought Tan's art on B&R5 was pedestrian at best, although his first issue was great. I wonder if he had to rush this one?

[DetectiveDupin]

Really? I thought Daniel's RIP stuff was great. It was very moody and expressive, perfect for the story. I thought Tan's art on B&R5 was pedestrian at best, although his first issue was great. I wonder if he had to rush this one?

I love Daniel's work. To be honest, the art matters much less to me than the story. Unless it was Liefieldian, of course.

[oscarwildebeest]

The art was a step-down from the last issue, IMO. Less neons and stuff to brighten up the palette, ended up kind of muddled, and, like some have said, a bit too dark.

Nice storyline, though. The Flamingo dude seems like a total badass. And I like this Gravedigger character too. I just like the idea of all these terrifying lunatic filtering into Gotham, with Batman & Robin / Red Hood & Scarlett duking it out in the meantime.

[AiyokuSama]

I feel like we're seeing the seeds of fixing Jason's resurrection and skipping past the Superboy PUNCH aspect of it.

Which would be great...except that pre-crisis Jay has NO reason to have gone to Africa and a date with the clown's crowbar.

[Kiryu]

Which would be great...except that pre-crisis Jay has NO reason to have gone to Africa and a date with the clown's crowbar.

If folk are fine with Geoff Johns re-re-re-re-writing the Legion/Superman to re include Superboy and Luthor in Smallville then I don't see why Grant using a throwaway idea from Pre-Crisis to deepen the resentment and feelings of inadequacy Jason Todd has towards his old life.

And well, this is New Earth. Before Infinite Crisis none of Grants run could have reasonably happened, as the murderer who killed the Waynes was unknown.

It's clearly not one or the other, but a blending. And I think it works, particularly well here with Jason. ANd doesn't really conflict with anything unless you develop a deep psychosis stressing over it. Which isn't necessary as it adds to Jason's character in my mind.

Also about the Red Lantern stuff, it looks to me like the camera is pointed down the barrel of a Red Gun. Not a red lantern.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Well, i suppose that there had to be a mediocre issue eventually, and this is it. After teasing us with a red herring mystery and finding that the Red Hood is only Jason, i'm really disappointed, i expected more. I'm not that interested in Jason, to be honest.

And what happened to Tan's art? This issue looks terrible and horribly inconsistent. And the next time some fool claims that Quitely draws Damian too old, i'll direct them to page 12 of this issue - absolutely horrible. And Scarlet's face was all over the place, but unfortunately not in the way it's supposed to be - it's different on every page and different from last issue.

I liked the Flamingo, though.

Again, the point of this arc was never for a red herring identity mystery. I don't know how it was even teased, they come out and say it's Jason in the first issue.

Frankly I think people keep setting their expectations too low. Morrison is too good a writer to rely on lame tricks like that.

[direction9]

Anyone tried to find the meaning of El Penitente, the boss who sent Flamingo and made the new drugs? I goggle it:



Purification from sin through severe penance? Hmmm

sounds like hurt

[olympichero62]

Yeah, that doesn't seem to be the consensus here.

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus. Some people hated the art, some people loved it. Some people liked the story, some people didn't. Not sure about Daniel's art, but Morrison is usually always a mized bag.

[AiyokuSama]

If folk are fine with Geoff Johns re-re-re-re-writing the Legion/Superman to re include Superboy and Luthor in Smallville then I don't see why Grant using a throwaway idea from Pre-Crisis to deepen the resentment and feelings of inadequacy Jason Todd has towards his old life.

What other writers do or don't do isn't the issue.

If this is supposed to be an effort to streamline things, it makes no sense whatsoever for that effort to result in a HUGE continuity issue.

Pre-crisis Jay didn't have the same parents, the same personality, the same motivation. Feelings of inadequacy wouldn't have sent him to Africa to find a mother he never knew.

A number of people have complained that Jason's return negates ADitF. That's nothing compared to now showing the current Jason Todd to be the pre-crisis one.

It's clearly not one or the other, but a blending. And I think it works, particularly well here with Jason. ANd doesn't really conflict with anything unless you develop a deep psychosis stressing over it.

<sigh> Can you please leave the personal attacks out of it?

See above for why there are conflicts.

I don't think the "blending" works, and it's not because I have a "deep psychosis."

I think it's disrespectful of character, whom I happen to enjoy, both before his death and in Under the Hood.

I can't stand pre-crisis Jay, because he was a shameless Dick clone and lacked originality.

I have no desire to see a blending of the two.

[AJM]

Again, the point of this arc was never for a red herring identity mystery. I don't know how it was even teased, they come out and say it's Jason in the first issue.

Frankly I think people keep setting their expectations too low. Morrison is too good a writer to rely on lame tricks like that.

That's nonsense, sorry. I've been through this before, you can check my previous posts for details, but both last issue, the solicitations and related interviews have been talking about the mystery behind the new Red Hood. I - and many, many others - didn't make it up, it's there in four colours in the comic and all over the internet too.

Morrison is too good a writer to rely on lame tricks like that? Didn't you read RIP?

[Choppa]

Okay so this actually the first time Morrison is really referencing stuff in the bat-verse outside of this own stuff. The line about Jason looking different seems to be a reference to BftC? Also just the fact that Jason is in this at all since Morrison has pretty much ignored him.

[nightwing45]

After reading the confirmations that I was right; I feel validated that I was right that Jason Todd was still the Red Hood. So much for me not knowing a damn thing about how Morrison thinks, eh?

[Sn4tcH]

I don't know. I never assumed it was anyone but Jason Todd... I didn't think that he was trying to misdirect us or anything...

I mean look at RIP, how many times did Hurt, Batman, and every other character in the story have to say "Hurt is the Devil". And people still didn't believe it till Morrison out right said it in an interview... and then people STILL didn't believe. I almost wonder if Morrison's trick is to outright tell us something, and continue writing a story as if it's a mystery, despite having the answers from Day 1.

[the goddamn batman]

What other writers do or don't do isn't the issue.

If this is supposed to be an effort to streamline things, it makes no sense whatsoever for that effort to result in a HUGE continuity issue.

Pre-crisis Jay didn't have the same parents, the same personality, the same motivation. Feelings of inadequacy wouldn't have sent him to Africa to find a mother he never knew.

A number of people have complained that Jason's return negates ADitF. That's nothing compared to now showing the current Jason Todd to be the pre-crisis one.



<sigh> Can you please leave the personal attacks out of it?

See above for why there are conflicts.

I don't think the "blending" works, and it's not because I have a "deep psychosis."

I think it's disrespectful of character, whom I happen to enjoy, both before his death and in Under the Hood.

I can't stand pre-crisis Jay, because he was a shameless Dick clone and lacked originality.

I have no desire to see a blending of the two.

Yeah but, dude, the whole thing about Morrison's run was the idea that EVERYTHING was in continuity; that it all happened to one guy. The same would, obviously, apply to the Robin's.

It's cool if you don't dig that, but you can't be surprised or disappointed when it happens since it was continually mentioned in interviews. Not to mention the story that got us here would be impossible without that concept.

[Kiryu]

What other writers do or don't do isn't the issue.

If this is supposed to be an effort to streamline things, it makes no sense whatsoever for that effort to result in a HUGE continuity issue.

Pre-crisis Jay didn't have the same parents, the same personality, the same motivation. Feelings of inadequacy wouldn't have sent him to Africa to find a mother he never knew.

A number of people have complained that Jason's return negates ADitF. That's nothing compared to now showing the current Jason Todd to be the pre-crisis one.

I honestly don't see any conflict here. This clearly isn't the Pre-Crisis Jason Todd. It's the same guy whose been appearing since Under the Hood with a idea from the characters conception reintergrated into it. I feel like it takes more work to manufacture a problem then Jason having red hair like he did in his initial appearence and it offering another layer of his bat-resentment.

I agree with you that Pre-Crisis Jason was lame. But I don't see integrating the hair dye as a return to that version of the character. And as mentioned, this is new Earth, post-ic. Joe Chill was returned and so were a lot of
Batmans weird adventures but I would hardly call the Batman in Grants run even similar to the pre-crisis Batman who fought aliens.

RE: Mystery of the Red Hood

Count me among those who never saw a mystery within this story. It was clear fro
the first interview that Grant was using Jason. Which made the appearence of a Red Hood an obvious telegraph of his identity. Top it off with DC using Jasons picture on that board mapping out what characters would be in what books and Batman telling you who it was in issue 4...

I blame Bob Wayne, for being all "Well we're just using his picture but that doesn't mean that Jason is the red hood!!" and creating this uncertainty. I mean the story is about can the new
Batman and Robin hack it in the 21st century of crime or are they as
a concept last years model, outclassed by Red Hood's literal BRAND of justice

[the goddamn batman]

It is the same Batman, though. It all happened to one guy. That was the point.

[Kiryu]

It is
the same Batman, though. It all happened to one guy. That was the point.
I meant as far as characterization and whatnot. Like I said, a blending of all versions. Not one or the other.

[HopeLantern]

SPOILER







Ummm, am I the only person who noticed the huge Red Hood Red Lantern tease at the end of B&R5???

I'm afraid I'm not seeing what you're referring to... can you be a little more specific? Seems like they would have went down that route in "Blackest Night: Batman"...

Really? I thought Daniel's RIP stuff was great. It was very moody and expressive, perfect for the story. I thought Tan's art on B&R5 was pedestrian at best, although his first issue was great. I wonder if he had to rush this one?
Count me as one of those who has no problems with Daniel's art at all. I'm still getting used to Quitely's although I'm starting to like it a lot. I did think that Tan rushed the art in this book but hopefully it will be to have more time to finish #6. If that is good, then I'm sure we can overlook #5. At least I can.

By the way, is FQ still coming back for the final three issues? (10-12?) Thanks...

[RonnieThunderbolts]

By the way, is FQ still coming back for the final three issues? (10-12?) Thanks...

10-12 are being drawn by Frazer Irving, but the series, as it has been since it was announced in February, is an ongoing series, and wasn't going to end with issue 12. At this point, whether or not Frank Quitely is returning following Irving's art is unknown, but it is widely assumed he is going to return following issue 12.

[Kiryu]

By the way, is FQ still coming back for the final three issues? (10-12?) Thanks...

Frazer Irving is doing those.

EDIT: Beaten to it

[strictlymonster]

Again I enjoyed this issue, was happy with the Red Hood and glad to see it was Jason Todd. What I don't get is in the description for B&R #6 it says:

-In the startling conclusion to "The Revenge of the Red Hood," Gotham's new "protector" reveals his identity to Batman..

I mean, Dick knows it's Jason, he said as much throughout the series...
So what is the big reveal? Sorry if someone already mentioned this.

[HopeLantern]

10-12 are being drawn by Frazer Irving, but the series, as it has been since it was announced in February, is an ongoing series, and wasn't going to end with issue 12. At this point, whether or not Frank Quitely is returning following Irving's art is unknown, but it is widely assumed he is going to return following issue 12.

Frazer Irving is doing those.

EDIT: Beaten to it


Thank you, both! Wow... I guess when it came down to deadlines, Didio and GM just realized that FQ wasn't going to meet them. This must be old news, but still Slightly disappointing as I was looking forward to actually seeing some more of his artwork in Gotham. Plus, personally after re reading the first 5 issues, I think he draws Damien's version as Robin the best, especially his action sequences. Thanks for the info, again, here's hoping Frazer Irving is a good follow up to Tan and FQ. I'll have to look up his work.

[Karl O'Neill]

I am so fecking confused now.

Has DC done another major fuck up or what?

Someone explain to me.

The guy who came back in judd winick's run, is this the same guy in morrison's run?

My mate in the local comic store told me there is now two different robins!

He said the one caught stealing wheels had black hair already!

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

I liked his old Red Hood costume better.
Other than that, I think it was a good issue.
Although I did think "Jason Blood" when I first saw Red Hood unmasked.

[direction9]

That's nonsense, sorry. I've been through this before, you can check my previous posts for details, but both last issue, the solicitations and related interviews have been talking about the mystery behind the new Red Hood. I - and many, many others - didn't make it up, it's there in four colours in the comic and all over the internet too.

Morrison is too good a writer to rely on lame tricks like that? Didn't you read RIP?

solicitations have been contradicting what morrison actually comes up with since forever, and have very little to do with the content of the actual book. just with expectations. which are easiliy disregarded.

[Teatime Brutality]

I guess when it came down to deadlines, Didio and GM just realized that FQ wasn't going to meet them.

It sounds more to me as if the conclusive arc that would have been in #10-12 got pushed back further when the run was extended. Since Morrison had been writing it for Quietly, it'd make sense to keep him on that story and push him back with it.

[HopeLantern]

I am so fecking confused now.

Has DC done another major fuck up or what?

Someone explain to me.

The guy who came back in judd winick's run, is this the same guy in morrison's run?

My mate in the local comic store told me there is now two different robins!

He said the one caught stealing wheels had black hair already!

Yep, it's the same guy, just different hair. Jason's original hair coloring is red, but he was forced by Bruce to dye his hair Black so he would look like Dick Grayson.

As far as Robin:

1) Obviously Jason Todd is a former Robin, but is now Red Hood

2) Tim Drake is not "Robin" anymore, but is instead a character called "Red Robin". Except he's using a costume that Jason Todd used to use during
"Countdown". He's "Red Robin" because he heard part of the Anti-life equation. He's currently in France looking for Bruce. Except Bruce is dead. Well not really, he's lost in time. But has left clues that only Tim can find. But everyone else in the Bat Family thinks Tim is off his rocker.

3) The new "Robin" is Damien Wayne, Bruce's son who was conceived by Bruce and Talia. Except he was grown in a test tube... at some point he will cause Dick Grayson to be killed. Then he'll be Batman. Except Bruce is lost in time. And no one can stop this.

4) Oh, dead people are rising in Gotham. Except Thomas and Martha Wayne. And there's a guy carrying around Bruce's skull. Except it's not really Bruce's skull. But Black Rings come out of his skull. And raise the dead.

5) For reasons that we still don't quite understand yet, Stephanie, yet another former "Robin" used to be "Spoiler". Except now she's "Batgirl".

You know something, you're right... that is pretty confusing, sheesh.

[direction9]

It sounds more to me as if the conclusive arc that would have been in #10-12 got pushed back further when the run was extended. Since Morrison had been writing it for Quietly, it'd make sense to keep him on that story and push him back with it.

yeah it seems obvious that the story has extended both to give quitely some more lead time and because of organic developments in the work that morrison is crafting. i'm sure that stewart's london arc isn't going to feel tacked on or anything. nor irving's.

[HopeLantern]

It sounds more to me as if the conclusive arc that would have been in #10-12 got pushed back further when the run was extended. Since Morrison had been writing it for Quietly, it'd make sense to keep him on that story and push him back with it.

That makes total sense to me actually...

[Teatime Brutality]

i'm sure that stewart's london arc isn't going to feel tacked on or anything. nor irving's.

If I'm remembering right, then the material that's coming up in Stewart's arc is the stuff that Frazer would have been drawing in the original plan, so there not much danger of that feeling like padding.

We've no idea what's going in the arc that Frazer's doing now though (other than delicious art, obviously), which is quite exciting. Ever since his return to DC, Morrison seems to have been experimenting with different ways of compressing stories. It's going to be interesting watching what happens now he has to play against his typical inclinations and stretch one out instead.

[direction9]

If I'm remembering right, then the material that's coming up in Stewart's arc is the stuff that Frazer would have been drawing in the original plan, so there not much danger of that feeling like padding.

We've no idea what's going in the arc that Frazer's doing now though (other than delicious art, obviously), which is quite exciting. Ever since his return to DC, Morrison seems to have been experimenting with different ways of compressing stories. It's going to be interesting watching what happens now he has to play against his typical inclinations and stretch one out instead.

i dunno i think we found out that the arc is moving to london and squire (and hopefully knight) are going to show up about the same time we found out about stewart.
and frazer was doing the batwoman/lazarus pit stuff.
i don't think those are the same arc.

[Teatime Brutality]

i dunno i think we found out that the arc is moving to london and squire (and hopefully knight) are going to show up about the same time we found out about stewart.
and frazer was doing the batwoman/lazarus pit stuff.
i don't think those are the same arc.

I think they are. Or at least they were. :)

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/060904-Grant-Batman.html

"The third one deals with the mystery of what happened to Bruce Wayne, and it‘s our big DCU superhero team-up arc, including a visit from Batwoman and a return for Squire and Knight." - Morrison.

Things may have changed, but back before the series was extended then that Batwoman/Lazarus pit arc and the Squire and Knight (not that anyone cares about poor, overshadowed Knight!) arc were one and the same.

[direction9]

I think they are. Or at least they were. :)

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/060904-Grant-Batman.html

"The third one deals with the mystery of what happened to Bruce Wayne, and it‘s our big DCU superhero team-up arc, including a visit from Batwoman and a return for Squire and Knight." - Morrison.

Things may have changed, but back before the series was extended then that Batwoman/Lazarus pit arc and the Squire and Knight (not that anyone cares about poor, overshadowed Knight!) arc were one and the same.

hrm wow no kidding. maybe frazer's arc is something else entirely. we'll see.

[midnight138]

I'm not going to address the issue with Jason's hair, because it doesn't bother me either way. I will say that I'm glad there wasn't yet another tired "who's under the mask?" mystery angle with Red Hood because that has been done to death lately in various forms.

The art is my only real issue with this book. Don't get me wrong; I think Tan is good. I don't get at all the "90s Jim Lee" comparison someone made a few pages back (and I realize it's cool to slam everything about the books from the early 90s now, but you can find way worse things about the 90s than Jim Lee's art!). His art doesn't remind me of that at all. I prefer Quitely's art by a wide margin, but Tan is solid. My issue is with his rendition of Sasha and the dolltron masks.

The dolltrons, as drawn by Quitely and described in the first arc, were wearing creepy, emotionless masks. The way Tan drew Sasha she just looks like a burn victim. The same with his depiction of Sasha's father in the flashback panel of her smothering him. They are both showing full emotion and they don't seem to be wearing the masks at all. They just looked scarred or burned. It seems like someone should've pointed that out to him while he was drawing this issue. Even if you want to assume the mask has become more integrated and further grafted to her face to allow for some facial movement, it should still be apparent around the eyes and sides that this is a mask over her face. It just seemed sloppy to me.

[Teatime Brutality]

hrm wow no kidding. maybe frazer's arc is something else entirely. we'll see.

Yeah, the material could well have been split up to make two different stories now. Think about thier styles, if you were going to give Kate to either Stewart or Frazer to draw, it'd probably be Frazer. And then the opposite way round with Knight and Squire!

(God, we're spoiled with these artists)

[the goddamn batman]

Oh that was me with the Jim Lee comment. I don't really have anything against Jim Lee or the 90's per se... But Tan's art in this arc reminds me of a poor man's Jim Lee. Like Tony Daneil.

I look at those guys and I see art stuck in an era where that style was the bee's knees.

[Red_Knight]

All things considered, this issue was another winner in my book. B&R continues to deliver.

Being a big fan of G-Mo's "everything happened in one way or another"-approach to the Bat mythos, I found his take on Jason Todd very interesting. It's certainly unique and may give the character some much needed direction. Still, I'm not entirely sure where this is going. I think it's Jason's line about zits and going bald that threw me off. I didn't really get the point. Are we supposed to see Jason as a self-absorbed show biz-type? Is he sick? Was it just a throw-away comment? I usually get Morrison's dialogue, but not this.

It'll be interesting to finally see Flamingo in action. I gotta admit the design doesn't do much for me; -- based on the splash page, it looks like a 90's sci-fi clichée. Still, the build-up has been deliciously creepy, so I think the character has potential.

I hated seeing Jason get gunned down, though. I mean, seriously, can't the guy maintain the upper hand for more than 2 issues at a time? This is the second Robin we are talking about. He was trained and mentored by Batman and travelled the world to get even better.So why is he consistently being written like a chump?

[nightwing45]

I am so fecking confused now.

Has DC done another major fuck up or what?

Someone explain to me.

The guy who came back in judd winick's run, is this the same guy in morrison's run?

My mate in the local comic store told me there is now two different robins!

He said the one caught stealing wheels had black hair already!

Actually, Jason has always had red hair; for some idiotic reason they established that he dyed his hair so that Batman's enemies would never known that he wasn't the same Robin. When it would have made more sense that Jason dyed his hair to fulfill his fantasy of being his idol's sidekick; pre-crisis speaking, of course.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Actually, Jason has always had red hair; for some idiotic reason they established that he dyed his hair so that Batman's enemies would never known that he wasn't the same Robin. When it would have made more sense that Jason dyed his hair to fulfill his fantasy of being his idol's sidekick; pre-crisis speaking, of course.

As many others have already discussed, that isn't quite right. That was the pre-Crisis Jason Todd, the Post-Crisis Jason Todd, until this issue, has always been portrayed with naturally dark hair since his first appearances stealing Batman's tires. This is just bringing that element of Jason Todd back to the current incarnation. Morrison is still using the Post-Crisis Todd for the most part, as he has been shown in Morrison's run (Last Rites) meeting Batman after trying to steal his hubcaps from the Batmobile and becoming Robin, but he has maintained since he first came on to Batman that "everything is in continuity," and has restored and referenced several Silver Age elements to Batman's history, this is just another example of him referencing past continuity, both Pre- and Post-Crisis.

Personally, I don't think it is that big a deal, but I can see where some confusion comes in.

[numberONE]

The "everything happens" mentality is one of the things that makes me like Grant Morrison so much.

As for the art, in my opinion, it's not that bad. In fact, I like it for the most part, although there was the odd panel that was a bit hard to follow.

[lonewolf23k]

You know, I think the events in this comic kind of show a good reason why Bruce preferred the "Don't Kill" method to crime-fighting.

If you just punch out a mobster and send them to jail, then his bosses have to spend money for a lawyer to get him out.

If you kill a mobster, then you piss off his friends. Who will want payback.

It's better to inconvenience an enemy then to enrage him.

[AJM]

Yeah, the material could well have been split up to make two different stories now. Think about thier styles, if you were going to give Kate to either Stewart or Frazer to draw, it'd probably be Frazer. And then the opposite way round with Knight and Squire!

I think you might be onto something there - perhaps the Stewart arc is the journey and the Frazer arc is the destination? And then: Bruce, Hurt, Joker, Quitely!

[dreyga2000]

You know, I think the events in this comic kind of show a good reason why Bruce preferred the "Don't Kill" method to crime-fighting.

If you just punch out a mobster and send them to jail, then his bosses have to spend money for a lawyer to get him out.

If you kill a mobster, then you piss off his friends. Who will want payback.

It's better to inconvenience an enemy then to enrage him.


I really don't agree. Mobsters send killers and assassin's towards Batman's way all the time...

Heck... Even Robin and Batgirl have been targets of hardcore killers...

Plus most of the mobsters and such Bats puts away never get back out... Only the masked Psycho's from Arkham are the ones who make repeat apperances...

[Kiryu]

Speaking of those Dolltron masks..

We now have a character who cut the face off a lady and ate it? Dollars to donuts he tries that with Scarlet and things go bad for everyone.

[AJM]

Speaking of those Dolltron masks..

We now have a character who cut the face off a lady and ate it? Dollars to donuts he tries that with Scarlet and things go bad for everyone.

Aha... i like it.

[Kiryu]

My buddy just brought this up, but I have to wonder if Jason Todd will end up disfigured by Flamingo before the arc is done? Something major FINALLY has to happen with him, as in every appearance he's made in the bat-books he's just shown up, stirred up a lot of shit, then left without consequence.

So Flamingo playing slicey slice with Jason's face, "letting the punishment fit the crime" as it were, kinda makes sense to me. It's that or he goes after Scarlet first and Jason's only option is to free Batman and Robin. But I really expect more from Morrison then to just let Jason walk away from this.

[T Hedge Coke]

Okay so this actually the first time Morrison is really referencing stuff in the bat-verse outside of this own stuff.

Hasn't the most common complaint about Morrison's Bat-run been that he's referenced or alluded to too many stories he didn't write? It's been pervasive, certainly, even if I like it and don't feel there's been a reference, allusion, or namecheck yet that required knowledge external to the actual Morrison-writ story/stories.

[Pixie_Solanas]

My buddy just brought this up, but I have to wonder if Jason Todd will end up disfigured by Flamingo before the arc is done? .

He's already made mention of the helmet causing acne and his impending baldness - very likely the Flamingo does something with JT's face.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Okay so this actually the first time Morrison is really referencing stuff in the bat-verse outside of this own stuff. The line about Jason looking different seems to be a reference to BftC? Also just the fact that Jason is in this at all since Morrison has pretty much ignored him.

Erm? Batman RIP referenced the hell out of old 1960s Batman lore.

[nepenthes]

Okay so this actually the first time Morrison is really referencing stuff in the bat-verse outside of this own stuff. The line about Jason looking different seems to be a reference to BftC? Also just the fact that Jason is in this at all since Morrison has pretty much ignored him.

Morrison didn't write Son of the Demon. Or Robin Dies Tonight, or Batman of Zur En Rah, or the Killing Joke. ??? Or are you talking about outside in the modern line-up e.g. Dini's books?


We also saw the pre-crisis Jason Todd costume in the batcave in RIP. I have no problems with the hair dye being incorporated back into modern continuity. just think of it as something they forgot to mention pre-crisis. it's really no big deal.


what does flamingo look like? still yet to read this

[AiyokuSama]

Actually, Jason has always had red hair

Not in Batman #408. His hair was, very obviously, black.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

We also saw the pre-crisis Jason Todd costume in the batcave in RIP. I have no problems with the hair dye being incorporated back into modern continuity. just think of it as something they forgot to mention pre-crisis. it's really no big deal.




I don't remember reality-altering changes with Final Crisis, but one could say, via Final Crisis, reality altered a slight bit with Jason Todd's hair going back to pre-crisis lore.

[nepenthes]

^ uh uh. this is after all the guy who was turned from an acrobat to an urchin by the first Crisis, and reality punched from dead to alive by the second. it only makes sense that the third would turn him into a redhead :cool:

[Retro315]

Ah, pre-Crisis Jason Todd ... we missed ye!

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x315/tsukiwriter/Comic%20Scans/precrisis_jay.jpg

Take that, early 80's editorial decision for making Jason look more like Dick so that the "iconic" look of Batman & Robin wouldn't be changed. We almost should have seen this coming, considering that Morrison has already massively tampered with the "iconic" people in the "iconic" Batman & Robin costumes. And you know ... believes everything that happened in every comic in some way, shape, or form, happened to every character.

[Godlike13]

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5512/batman36622.jpg

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/2105/batman36623.jpg

[AiyokuSama]

I honestly don't see any conflict here.

So you keep saying, even though I pointed out why there was one.

You are free to point out WHY you don't see a conflict, to rebut my points, but so far you haven't done that.

This clearly isn't the Pre-Crisis Jason Todd.

It's also clearly not the post-crisis Jason Todd, since he never had to dye his hair.

I feel like it takes more work to manufacture a problem then Jason having red hair like he did in his initial appearence and it offering another layer of his bat-resentment.

Okay. Still waiting for your reasoning.

As for the another layer of bat resentment. All that accomplished is to make the character look petty. he has valid reasons for resentment of Bruce, Dick, Tim and even Damian. The character doesn't need another layer...except to make him a two dimensional, unsympathetic villain. And honestly, I thought Morrison was better then that.

[Doug Side]

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5512/batman36622.jpg

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/2105/batman36623.jpg

Jason is just messed up enough that i can see him remembering it differently. But yeah, that's kinda crazy. <_<

[AJM]

Well, i must have been in a bad mood when i read this issue earlier today, because i read it again and really enjoyed it. It's still my least favourite issue so far, but that means it's still brilliant when compared to just about anything else this week. Tan's art is still a bit disappointing in places and doesn't work quite as well as his first issue, but oh well. Second time lucky!

[Teatime Brutality]

As for the another layer of bat resentment. All that accomplished is to make the character look petty. he has valid reasons for resentment of Bruce, Dick, Tim and even Damian. The character doesn't need another layer...except to make him a two dimensional, unsympathetic villain. And honestly, I thought Morrison was better then that.

I see it as less a 'layer' and more a bit of visual shorthand for the existing layers.

Nobody's proposing that "BRUCE WAYNE MADE ME DYE MY HAIR, THUS CONTRIBUTING TO ITS PREMATURE THINNING IN MY TWENTIES...AND FOR THAT, EVERYONE HE LOVED MUST SUFFER!" be added to Jason's Official List Of Motivations. That would indeed be petty. Hilarious, but petty.

But no, this idea just works by making Jason's feeling that he's the red-headed stepchild (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=red+headed+stepchild) of the Bat-family very literal and very visual. Most of Batman and Robin seems to turn on the trick of making what's going on outside the characters' heads exactly the same as what's going on inside their heads. "I'm so uncomfortable about being Batman and...what's that you say? There's a baddie going round forcing people to lose ther identities behind masks?"

It's a very Morrison thing to do in that it's very economical. If most writers wanted to draw a paralell between Gotham's approval of the Red Hood and the Misaimed Fandom (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MisaimedFandom) around Rorschach, wanted to establish that they were working towards a 'Unified Theory of Jason', and wanted to dramatically externalise the bat-resentment...then they'd probably take a couple of pages, maybe even a couple of issues, to achive each of those writerly goals. Morrison gets all three done with a hair-do.

[AiyokuSama]

Nobody's proposing that "BRUCE WAYNE MADE ME DYE MY HAIR, THUS CONTRIBUTING TO ITS PREMATURE THINNING IN MY TWENTIES...AND FOR THAT, EVERYONE HE LOVED MUST SUFFER!" be added to Jason's Official List Of Motivations.

Except that's how it reads.

"I'm so uncomfortable about being Batman and...what's that you say? There's a baddie going round forcing people to lose ther identities behind masks?"

THAT is good storytelling. It ADDS to what is already there, rather then messing with the existing character history and established continuity.

Giving Jason red hair as a visual metaphor is not good story telling. It's one of those things that makes me wonder, "What is he smoking?!"

As for a unified theory of Jason...you need a LOT more then one page to explain that one. As a comic fan who has invested time and money into following the universe, I deserve more.

[Teatime Brutality]

Except that's how it reads.
[...]
Giving Jason red hair as a visual metaphor is not good story telling. It's one of those things that makes me wonder, "What is he smoking?!"

Fair enough. It obviously read differently to me and made me wonder about different things.

As for a unified theory of Jason...you need a LOT more then one page to explain that one.

Certainly you would. To explain it. But to gesture at it in such a way as to let the readers know the sort of thing that's going on, this is very efficient.

[agentofthebat]

Fair enough. It obviously read differently to me and made me wonder about different things.



Certainly you would. To explain it. But to gesture at it in such a way as to let the readers know the sort of thing that's going on, this is very efficient.

looks like a good issue

[AiyokuSama]

But to gesture at it in such a way as to let the readers know the sort of thing that's going on, this is very efficient.

It wasn't even efficient. It was completely random and makes no sense given the history of the character.

If he wanted to be efficient, he could have had Jason dye his hair red and then make a comment about redheaded step children, about not wanting to look like Robin, etc. He could have handled it any number of ways that didn't completely ignore established continuity.

It was sloppy at best and a big disappointment.

[Teatime Brutality]

He could have handled it any number of ways that didn't completely ignore established continuity.


Is there an established continuity here?

We know that Pre-COIE Jason had naturally red hair.
We know that Post-COIE Jason had naturally black-hair.
But New Earth/Post-InfiniCrisis Jason...have we ever been told one way or another until now?

The only thing I can think of is that one panel in Last Rites...in which case all Morrison's contradicting is an unreliable drug-induced flashback in one of his own comics.

Unless yours is a general complaint that New Earth continuity differs from post-COIE continuity, especially (as here) in its incorporation of pre-COIE elements. Fair enough if so, but I'm not sure how suprised/disapointed it's reasonable to be over that three years on.

[AiyokuSama]

Is there an established continuity here?


Yes.

Unless you're going to claim that Jason continued to dye his hair after OYL, in which case, his complaint is even more petty then before, and Morrison's writing all the sloppier.

[Teatime Brutality]

Unless you're going to claim that Jason continued to dye his hair after OYL

Well, yes I am going to claim that.

It seemed very much to me that Batman and Robin#5 was saying, "Jason has recently stopped dying his hair" and didn't even occur to me that Batman and Robin#5 might be saying, "All those times you saw Jason over the past few years? Well now his hair was red in them! Felt-tips out everyone."

Had I read it the same way as you...well, I doubt I'd have shared your level of rage, but I'd probably have gone "Huh?"

Did anyone else read it the same way as AiyokuSama?

As for the question of whether or not it's plausible that the post-2005 Jason has been dying his hair all this time, well... look at the guy. By accident or design Jason's been writen since Under the Hood as having some seriously messed up issues around his self-image, especially in as far as that image pertains to his time as Robin. This is a guy who wants to know where his statue is, and who WEARS HIS DOMINO MASK UNDERNEATH HIS ORIGINAL RED HOOD MASK.

Given those Robin-related self-image issues (which fit very happily with the 'image&identity' themes of both this arc in particular and Batman and Robin in general) and and given Jason's push-pull "Accept me!/Reject me!" dynamic with the Bat-Family...then yes, I think it's very plausible that Jason would carry on dying his hair for the last few years and that he'd stop doing so shortly after Bruce's death.

[MikeCr]

rather then messing with the existing character history and established continuity.

It wasn't even efficient. It was completely random and makes no sense given the history of the character.

It was sloppy at best and a big disappointment.
Dude, no offense, but you're losing the plot here.

"Established continuity"? In the DC Universe? In any shared fictional universe? It changes every other week. Or, more generously, every time a new voice is added to the conversation.

In fact, one of the central themes of Morrison's work in the DC Universe, back to his seminal run on Animal Man, is that "established continuity" has always been a muddled affair full of contradictions, revisions, omissions, and (and often unacknowledged) tacit acceptance that everything is NEVER going to line up. At best continuity is a work of artifice: an illusion created by later writers that they are truly continuing the stories of previous authors. That what is, in fact, two separate stories by two separate authors are actually one unified whole. At worst continuity is a marketing gimmick gone out of control that has become a thousand pound weight limiting the boundaries of what can be done with these characters and forcing all NEW stories to be slavishly devoted to servicing the needs of OLD stories: "All is one in Darkseid" and all that.

His Batman run in particular has been an attempt to tap dance in between all the contradictions that have inevitably developed during 70 years of multiple authors creating stories about one character. It takes the patently ABSURD notion of "what if they all really were one story that happened to one person" and starts to wrestle with the consequences of such a proposition. One of the first things that Morrison has to confront is that not only have MOST Batman stories been excised from what is considered "canon" but that to explain the existence of different iterations of specific characters the conceit of them actually being different - "Pre-Crisis versus Post-Crisis" - characters has been enshrined as an organizing principle.

It's funny that you should use the word "sloppy" to describe Morrison's decision to have Jason reference his Pre-Crisis red hair. In addition to all the other allusions to Rorschach and red-headed stepchildren I think we can say with confidence that rather than being "sloppy" Morrison specifically chose to highlight to contradictions that have developed as Jason Todd's stories have been added to. I'm not even enough of a DC nerd to have KNOWN that there was such a thing as "Pre-Crisis Jason Todd" but Morrison, by dredging up an ignored piece of minutiae, has forced ME, the reader, to acknowledge that, ever since his second appearance, there has been more than one Jason Todd. You're hung-up on the notion that this has to be either the "Pre-Crisis Jason Todd" or the "Post-Crisis Jason Todd" while Morrison wants you to recognize that this is HIS Jason Todd: a NEW iteration that takes an integrationist approach to previous versions. I bet he'd argue that there's been more than two as well! Being Morrison he's done this in his typically economical way with a few lines of dialogue and specific decision not to explicate further. Morrison's never been interested in, as one poster once said, "pre-chewing your food for you". He wants YOU, the reader, to confront the contradiction YOURSELF and reconcile it ON YOUR OWN because by doing that you'll recognize that's what you're ALWAYS doing when you read stories by different authors.

Consider, for a second, religion: there have been, quite literally, WARS fought over this sort of stuff. The people in your camp, the people who believe that there is "one, and only one, true and correct story" and that any deviation constitutes heresy, have burned others at the stake for having the temerity to point out the contradictions inherent in different stories. In comics our high-priests are the continuity obsessive fanboys - who, for the last 40 years, have too often become writers and editors - who spend their time delineating "one story" of the characters. Just like real life high-priests they declare that some stories "count" and other stories "don't count" while, too hilariously, engaging in the rank hypocrisy of changing their mind every generation or so as to exactly what those stories are. They are devoted to servicing the illusion rather than confronting the Truth.

Morrison is precisely in the other - and I might say "more interesting" - camp. He is at play in the contradictions and inconsistencies. He manages to parse out new meanings FROM those spaces that open up between different authors visions and launch himself (and readers) in NEW directions as a result. That's precisely what excites those who appreciate his aesthetic and why we anticipate his work on characters he didn't create. Again, I don't want to be too rude, but if you're not comfortable with that you're really not attempting to read Morrison's run on it's own terms and are bound to be frustrated by it.

As a comic fan who has invested time and money into following the universe, I deserve more.
Honestly, if you really believe that, then get ready for a lifetime of disappointment. No matter how much the companies will try to sell you the notion that they're telling one story the truth is that unless it's one writer doing everything - and having it all planned out in advance of publication - you're always going to have competing visions you have to reconcile. In the case of DC, with years of stories already in print, that's already a complete impossibility.

Or, you could stop that approach right now, jump over to our camp, and start having some fun again!:biggrin:

(And the funniest part is I didn't even think this was a "great" issue! Though "Backstory. Not interested." was gold!)

[AiyokuSama]

Well, yes I am going to claim that.

It seemed very much to me that Batman and Robin#5 was saying, "Jason has recently stopped dying his hair

So the points in my last post stand.

[AiyokuSama]

Dude, no offense, but you're losing the plot here.

No, I'm not. And please don't presume to speak for me.

"Established continuity"? In the DC Universe?

Yes. Sometimes it gets rewritten, but frankly, if this is the case here, it was a hack job and I really expected better from Morrison.

If we're just going to through continuity out the window then what's the point of reading? I might as well jump from X-men to Sandman and back again. It would make as much sense.

wants YOU, the reader, to confront the contradiction YOURSELF and reconcile it ON YOUR OWN because by doing that you'll recognize that's what you're ALWAYS doing when you read stories by different authors.

I did. Read Crisis on Infinite Earths.

The people in your camp, the people who believe that there is "one, and only one, true and correct story"

I am in no such "camp" and I hold no such belief. As I said before, there were a number of ways Morrison could have brought in the red hair that didn't mess with established continuity. There were also ways he could have brought it in to explain that there is more to the continuity issue. He did neither. It was sloppy.

Or, you could stop that approach right now, jump over to our camp, and start having some fun again!:biggrin:

I don't see whiny, petty, 2D villain Jason Todd as anything remotely fun. A boring let down, yes, but not fun.

[MikeCr]

Oh, well, I tried. Carry on.

[Red_Knight]

I gotta say I don't really get the heated debate over Jason's hair color. My reaction was pretty much, "Huh? Okay. Interesting". What's the big deal? It's not like G-Mo just retconned Jason into Bruce's long-lost kid brother or something. It's just hair.

Now, I can't say I'm particularly thrilled with the new look, but from a psychological point of view, it would certainly makes sense for Jason to stop dying his hair only after Bruce's death. I think we can all agree that Jason was always looking for Bruce's approval, whether he realized it or not. We shouldn't forget that he first snapped upon realizing that Bruce didn't avenge his "death". IMO, the whole Red Hood shtick was basically Jason's attempt to humble his father (and, of course, win his love) by outdoing him at his own game.

Now that Bruce is gone, it only makes sense for Jason to move on, even if that means going further over the edge. Now that he can longer fight for his "father's" approval, why should he keep the black hair, the domino mask, etc.?

Granted, I don't know whether it's that line of thinking that gave Morrison the idea to take Jason in a new direction, -- but it works beauftifully.

[Teatime Brutality]

So the points in my last post stand.

The ones about the pettiness of it all?

Well, to an extent. Though (on my reading) I think what you've done is confuse a character's motivation with an expression of that motivation.

It's like...if I dislike someone deeply, then even the way they drink thier tea will annoy me. That's petty. But it's not petty to the same degree it would be if the way they drank their tea was the fundamental reason I disliked them.

Jason is being petty in grumbling about Bruce 'making him dye his hair'. But the situation is not that those grumbles have been added to the list of things driving him forwards towards furious vengence until JUSTICE has been won for his ravaged folicles - it's that these complaints are an expression, a symptom and an outward sign, of his fundamental beef; His sense of exclusion, of being the odd-one-odd, of living in Grayson's shadow, etc.

[jAWSH!]

Ah, pre-Crisis Jason Todd ... we missed ye!

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x315/tsukiwriter/Comic%20Scans/precrisis_jay.jpg

Take that, early 80's editorial decision for making Jason look more like Dick so that the "iconic" look of Batman & Robin wouldn't be changed. We almost should have seen this coming, considering that Morrison has already massively tampered with the "iconic" people in the "iconic" Batman & Robin costumes. And you know ... believes everything that happened in every comic in some way, shape, or form, happened to every character.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5512/batman36622.jpg

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/2105/batman36623.jpg

I had no idea that Jason Todd was a ginger. Another very cool little nod to the past by Morrison!

[DetectiveDupin]

Why is everyone making such a big deal about Jason's hair? It's a small retcon, nowhere near the one that brought him back in the fist place. Bruce made him dye it so he looks like so criminals wouldn't notice a change in Robins. A very plausible and good reason.

[Kiryu]

@AiyokuSama

What is it about Morrison's use of Jason in these last two issues that bothers you other then the red hair?

All the characters we have now are not the Pre-Crisis or Post-Crisis versions. But Post-IC. Batman's weirder older stories are back into play. So is Jason's red hair. Superman was Superboy and had adventures with the legion. That's the reality of the situation in the DCU.

[DetectiveDupin]

And just so you guys know, evidently Morrison considers the origin story of Jason stealing the tires on the Batmobile canon, as shown in Last Rites.

[the goddamn batman]

One three dollar comic book later, I know my world has fallen apart.

[T Hedge Coke]

Halfway apropos, Morrison's used the red hair callback before, in Batman's delusion during the JLA Key story.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Halfway apropos, Morrison's used the red hair callback before, in Batman's delusion during the JLA Key story.

That was a reference to the "Batman II and Robin II" stories from the Silver Age. The situation in the Key story had an adult Tim Drake as Batman with Bruce Wayne, Jr. a redhead, in the role of Robin, the son of Bruce and Catwoman. In the Silver Age the Batman II and Robin II stories had Batman's son with Batwoman as Bruce Wayne, Jr. a redhead as Robin II with Dick Grayson as Batman II.

[Karl O'Neill]

16-17 pages of talk so far?

New record for one single issue of Batman?

Anybody think flamingo will eat sasha's face off?

[DetectiveDupin]

16-17 pages of talk so far?

New record for one single issue of Batman?

Anybody think flamingo will eat sasha's face off?

I actually think Jason will be disfigured. As if he didn't have the worst life of all Robins already.

[AiyokuSama]

I gotta say I don't really get the heated debate over Jason's hair color.

I'm starting to get the feeling that no one is actually reading my posts as I've made my reasons very clear. Yet people keep not addressing them.

[AiyokuSama]

Kiryu:
@AiyokuSama

What is it about Morrison's use of Jason..?

I told you exactly what my issues are and why. You can go back and address them.

[Teatime Brutality]

16-17 pages of talk so far?

New record for one single issue of Batman?


We demand new hair-do's every issue!
It's what gets the fanbase excited above all else!

NEXT TIME ON BATMAN AND ROBIN : Jason's hair is green!

*cough*
More sensibly...has anyone any thoughts about what's with all the Victorian/Edwardian references? The series starts with Wind in the Willows, then takes us into Pygmalion, the Mikado and Sexton Blake.

In a series that's trying so hard to push its twitter-tastic modernity, it seems very strange and deliberate that so many of its most prominent pop culture allusions would all be equally at home if this were Gotham by Gaslight.

[Teatime Brutality]

Bah. Double post. Sorry.

[Scott Taylor]

I didn't mind the red hair at all. Just read the graphic novel, Batman of the Eighties, and it contains a pretty logical explanation about the black versus red hair.

Its cool to see him have that touch of grey as well. This issue has really upped the ante with Jason, though, he's alot more scary than he was in Battle for the Cowl. Less crazy, more scary.

[AiyokuSama]

ETA...it posted twice

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Man, my expectations about comic fans are so low that I'm not even surprised someone has spent pages and pages whining about Jason's hair color.

*sigh*

Fandom.

[AiyokuSama]

Man, my expectations about comic fans are so low that I'm not even surprised someone has spent pages and pages whining about Jason's hair color.

*sigh*

Fandom.

Yes, because when it's not something you feel strongly about, it's a "whine." <rolls eyes>

[the goddamn batman]

I'm starting to get the feeling that no one is actually reading my posts as I've made my reasons very clear. Yet people keep not addressing them.

I think it's more that no body cares... or identifies with your problem. Everyone else seems to like or not care about Jason having his pre crisis hair color.

And again, this is morrison's batman run we're talking about here; the "everything happened to the same guy/everything is in continuity/I did a long run that was nothing but call backs to shit from the 50's & 60's pre crisis era, so why would or should another pre crisis reference be shocking or irritating... outside of the ridiculous notion of fan entitlement. But I'm Grant Morrison and pleasing fans ridiculous notions has never been my m.o."

So, I think it's got more to do with that than people not reading your posts. I could be wrong though.

[direction9]

what a bunch of insane bullshit excuses to resent an issue of a comic
just ludicrous

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Yes, because when it's not something you feel strongly about, it's a "whine." <rolls eyes>

I could feel really strongly that Flamingo's jet shouldn't be a hot pink but rather a much more subdued color then run onto CBR and start a hissy fit.

And everyone else would be completely within their right to point out how stupid my complaint is.

[the goddamn batman]

We demand new hair-do's every issue!
It's what gets the fanbase excited above all else!

NEXT TIME ON BATMAN AND ROBIN : Jason's hair is green!

*cough*
More sensibly...has anyone any thoughts about what's with all the Victorian/Edwardian references? The series starts with Wind in the Willows, then takes us into Pygmalion, the Mikado and Sexton Blake.

In a series that's trying so hard to push its twitter-tastic modernity, it seems very strange and deliberate that so many of its most prominent pop culture allusions would all be equally at home if this were Gotham by Gaslight.

I think it's pretty rad. I mean, given the context of his run, i.e. Referencing the entire history of Batman, it seems kinda fitting that his references go pretty far back as well. But I'm not sure if it's even something specific to this run so much as just Grant's literary references in comics being all over the map.