Batman & Robin #5 - It's all about the hair

[MikeCr]

That is ONE possibility, yes.

But we don't have anymore indication of that being the case then any of the other many possibilities.
And there we go.

YOU don't like open works with an ambiguity that allows for multiple interpretations.

FYI, you're not going to like a lot of Morrison's work. I wouldn't get so hung-up on it though and save yourself the frustration of trying to read it the way you are.

I'm with Teatime: as pedantic as much of the "hair" discussion has been at times it's actually illuminated one of the most interesting undercurrents of Morrison's run and points to one of his (recurring) central themes: reality is an illusion. A "lie" that we buy into to make sense of our perceptions.

(And I'm still sticking with my reading - even if some hack takes it away in the future! - that THIS Jason has the origins of BOTH Jasons simultaneously. That he exists "in-between places, where solid things turn soft and change."*

*Seven Soldiers of Victory #0)

[SarcasmoBlaster]

I'm enjoying Batman & Robin. The color of Jason Todd's hair does not matter to me.

[MikeCr]

Well with Morrison writing one never knows exactly how you are supposed to read it,
And may things always stay that way!

[DetectiveDupin]

I'm enjoying Batman & Robin. The color of Jason Todd's hair does not matter to me.

You should probably go to the other thread Captain Jim made then. If not, good luck with this one.

[SarcasmoBlaster]

Ah. Thanks DD. I didn't see that thread and figured this was the only B&R dicussion going on.

[Kiryu]

Yet we don't know HOW, in what way and for what characters.

Alex Luthor is not Jason Todd. Superman is not Jason Todd. Joe Chill is not Jason Todd. There is nothing specifying that the hair colour change is indeed due to post-fc changes and not something like Jason dying his hair red and then lying to Sasha.

So yes, you are engaging is speculation, coming up with "changes" that would support your preferred theory.

Right, because all of these characters in the DCU being fundamentally changed since the moment IC-7 shipped doesn't make this seem at all like another instance of this. Like Superman suddenly having adventures with the legion in Action Comics. Pure baseless speculation on my part.

Best of luck to you in hoping there are multiple versions of Jason Todd, or that this Jason is lying and dyed his hair red, which I guess would make you stop being so attached to the concept? I don't even know, but now I will fully leave this hair thread.

@CaptainJim , when issue 6 comes out maybe preemptively split the discussion thread into Hair and Hairless threads?

[direction9]

That is ONE possibility, yes.

But we don't have anymore indication of that being the case then any of the other many possibilities. Given all the hype about Morrison's writing genius, I am very much less then impressed.

we all know this to be the case, not a possibility, due to the fact that we're familiar with morrison's work.
you can easily know this if you've only been reading his batman run from the beginning too, because his intentions are just fucking clearly laced onto each panel.
you already had to make someone prove the link to the quote from an interview for you to believe in the very basic concept defining the run, which just goes to show us all that despite noticing shallow details, that when reading these books you just aren't paying attention.

[AiyokuSama]

i mean seriously what is this?

Myself and other's voicing their opinion on the subject and discussing the differances of opinion. That you take that as "upset" is entirely on you.

What I don't get is why so many people carry on about others reactions, but don't actually engage in discussion of the topic.

[AiyokuSama]

Right, because all of these characters in the DCU being fundamentally changed since the moment IC-7 shipped doesn't make this seem at all like another instance of this.

I'm not willing to jump to that conlussion. So no, it does not.

[direction9]

I'm not willing to jump to that conlussion. So no, it does not.

that's really fact, not a conclusion that you have the option of jumping to. the evidence has already been laid out in the thread.

yknow you'd probably really get into the whole body of work starting with seven soldiers, into 52, batman, and final crisis, as one interrelated body of work. i bet alot of this still would seem clearer, if you were interested in pursuing it. it's hard to overhype this guy who's easily the best writer in the business now, or at least the most interesting.
the other day i just read dc one million for the first time and it was nuts how many times he's already followed up on all those ideas and implications.

[AiyokuSama]

we all know this to be the case, not a possibility, due to the fact that we're familiar with morrison's work.
you can easily know this if you've only been reading his batman run from the beginning too, because his intentions are just fucking clearly laced onto each panel.

I have been. Mostly it's been mediocre and not the genius I've seen others claim it to be. Worse, when people such as myself scratch their head and point out that they just aren't seeing what others do, they get told that they are just to stupid to appreciate the genius of it.

So if you think I'm missing something, but all means if you think I'm missing something, you're free to point out what. Preferably without insults.


you already had to make someone prove the link to the quote from an interview for you to believe in the very basic concept defining the run, which just goes to show us all that despite noticing shallow details, that when reading these books you just aren't paying attention.

Right, so because I showed how the quote referred to Bruce, and not every character in the DCU, I'm not paying attention. <sigh>

[direction9]

I have been. Mostly it's been mediocre and not the genius I've seen others claim it to be. Worse, when people such as myself scratch their head and point out that they just aren't seeing what others do, they get told that they are just to stupid to appreciate the genius of it.

So if you think I'm missing something, but all means if you think I'm missing something, you're free to point out what. Preferably without insults.

but you haven't been because someone had to prove to you that the concept behind the run is the idea that the entire 70 years is the new canon. you haven't been paying attention if that was new information to you.
you.missed.something.


Right, so because I showed how the quote referred to Bruce, and not every character in the DCU, I'm not paying attention. <sigh>

but it didn't refer to bruce, it referred to 70 years of batman comics. you're being willfully obtuse to deny that the 70 years doesn't apply to everyone. the idea that he ONLY meant bruce is the thing that makes the least sense of all, and you're just trying to use anything to help you continue feeling you're right about something, when you know that doesn't make any logical sense.

[AiyokuSama]

And there we go.

YOU don't like open works with an ambiguity that allows for multiple interpretations.

Not at all. I'm fine with possible multiple interpretations.

You and others simply aren't listen to my criticism. It doesn't go anywhere. It's completely random. It's introduction and then the lack of hints at direction/relevance within the story or the batverse in general, threw me right out of the story as I sat there going WTF, which I view as bad from in a writer.

[direction9]

Not at all. I'm fine with possible multiple interpretations.

You and others simply aren't listen to my criticism. It doesn't go anywhere. It's completely random. It's introduction and then the lack of hints at direction/relevance within the story or the batverse in general, threw me right out of the story as I sat there going WTF, which I view as bad from in a writer.

we're listening. it's shitty uninformed criticism.
but yknow if you are interested there are some other books, that you'd really dig, that explain the method of writing that is allowing for decisions such as these. and you'll respect that those decisions weren't made callously and weren't the results of lazy editing, but that plenty of thought went into them.

[AiyokuSama]

but you haven't been because someone had to prove to you that the concept behind the run is the idea that the entire 70 years is the new canon. you haven't been paying attention if that was new information to you.
you.missed.something.

Yes, I missed an interview. I read the comics, and I expect the comics to be able to tell an understandable story without needing to be explained in an interview. So, hunting down interviews isn't a big priority for me.


but it didn't refer to bruce, it referred to 70 years of batman comics.

In reference to "one man's incredible life." I'm going by what he said, and I have no doubt that if he'd meant something else, he would have said something else.

I'm not the one being willfully obtuse here.

[AiyokuSama]

we're listening. it's shitty uninformed criticism.

Somehow, I knew the insults wouldn't be long in coming.

[DetectiveDupin]

Guys, just give it a rest already.

[direction9]

Yes, I missed an interview. I read the comics, and I expect the comics to be able to tell an understandable story without needing to be explained in an interview. So, hunting down interviews isn't a big priority for me.



you shouldn't have needed an interview to understand the concept defining a 2+ year long run of comics.


In reference to "one man's incredible life." I'm going by what he said, and I have no doubt that if he'd meant something else, he would have said something else.

I'm not the one being willfully obtuse here.

yes, you are. if the 70 years of stories are all combined into one lifetime, that process is happening to the entire world, not inside one guy's head.

[direction9]

Somehow, I knew the insults wouldn't be long in coming.

i'm going to keep insulting your criticism if it's awful. notice how that is different from name-calling.

[BooCoo]

I think Morrison should be forced to wear a red wig smothered in grease for a year. Or at least until his face breaks out. And the clogged follicles will give some balding for that 'special' look.

Then, some random character must pull his face off and cook it in a casserole. All in keeping with the themes, ya know? :cool:

[direction9]

I think Morrison should be forced to wear a red wig smothered in grease for a year. Or at least until his face breaks out. And the clogged follicles will give some balding for that 'special' look.

Then, some random character must pull his face off and cook it in a casserole. All in keeping with the themes, ya know? :cool:

he probably already did all that before writing the issue. and before he tweaks seaguy three he dunks his head in the aquarium.

[AiyokuSama]

you shouldn't have needed an interview to understand the concept defining a 2+ year long run of comics.

No, I shouldn't. And I'm still not seeing it in the comics. You can claim it's tehre all you want, but that doesn't change anything. I've looked. Then I've looked again. Then a third time.

Telling me that I'm missing "something" is meaningless. It accomplishes nothing other then to sound like juvenile taunting.

Show what you think I've missed or move on.


if the 70 years of stories are all combined into one lifetime.

In ONE PERSON'S life time. And we both know there are ways of doing that without re-writing the entire universe. Morrison has already shown a liking for psychedelics as the means of putting things back into a story.

[Choppa]

But he makes the resurrected Jason Todd a major character in his arc??

Plus, in Last Rites he references NML (and what appears to be Cassandra), Azbats (which was the first time in like 5 years), and even HUSH which contradicts Tim's comments in RIP. He asks Alfred if Bruce has ever loved and shares hid ID with any other woman like Jezebel. Well he was there during HUSH when Bruce brought her to the cave and had his mask off. Also, Alfred mentions Sasha Bordeaux, but he was there at that time so he already knew that! And so did Alfred.

Given all this other stuff that I mentioned, the hair shouldn't be so much of a surprise.

[Infernorhythm]

In the Club of Heroes arc, the man claiming to be wearing John Mayhew's face is Dr. Hurt. As Mayhew was later revealed to be alive, we must assume that Dr. Hurt was actually wearing Mangrove Pierce.

But Batman and Co. thought that that was Mayhew's face. Surely Pierce and Mayhew were not identical.

[DetectiveDupin]

But Batman and Co. thought that that was Mayhew's face. Surely Pierce and Mayhew were not identical.

Apparently Mangrove Pierce was an actor, so anything's possible.

[Teatime Brutality]

There is nothing to point to any one direction. Thus my disappointment with the issue.

Got it. You dislike polysemia.

Enjoy your Never Being Able To Engage With Literature.

[paulski]

Why are some of the posters on this thread so intent on acting like assholes?

Show some friggin' common courtesy towards your fellow human beings, for christ's sake. You can argue with each other without being dicks. It really isn't that hard.

[CYOTI]

The whole purpose of arguing across the internet is being able to act like a dick while using pseudonyms.

[paulski]

So it seems. :frown:

Come on guys, you're bitching with each other over the color of a comic character's hair, for god's sake.

Take a step back and chillax.

[Sean Whitmore]

Heh, I just read this thread for the first time. Pretty funny.

Anyone wanna argue my conclusion that we're going around in circles and the thread should be closed?

I'm in a good mood so I'm feeling democratic.


SEAN

[Jorriss]

Heh, I just read this thread for the first time. Pretty funny.

Anyone wanna argue my conclusion that we're going around in circles and the thread should be closed?

I'm in a good mood so I'm feeling democratic.


SEAN
I say we close it and have everyone vote who they think won the debate. Then, that becomes the official forum opinion so this debate never, ever comes up again >.>

[Sean Whitmore]

I say we close it and have everyone vote who they think won the debate. Then, that becomes the official forum opinion so this debate never, ever comes up again >.>

I won't lie, that kinda appeals to me.

Three months from now, when someone starts a "Was Dark Knight Returns overrated?" thread, I can turn around and go: "Here's the consensus. New topic!"

"Who should be the villain in the next mov--?" "Consensus! Next!"


SEAN

[direction9]

i agree, this is beyond tiresome
new thread to the rescueeee

[nepenthes]

I like polls too

i suggest a multipe choice, for example

Q. To what exent does Jason Todds new red do enrage you?

A.
1. I want to kill puppies
2. I'd rather it was black, but I can handle it
3. I seriously don't care, it's just hair
4. I think it's kinda cool actually
5. I love it in all its ginger glory

[Sn4tcH]

A.
1. I want to kill puppies
2. I'd rather it was black, but I can handle it
3. I seriously don't care, it's just hair
4. I think it's kinda cool actually
5. I love it in all its ginger glory

Change 5 to "I don't care if his hair is purple, as long as I get Nocturna back" and I think you win.

[Captain Jim]

Jason Todds history has changed back to the pre-crisis

I don't think the hair thing alone justifies that conclusion.


CaptainJim , when issue 6 comes out maybe preemptively split the discussion thread into Hair and Hairless threads?

LOL. Not sure if you're serious or joking, but at least this gave me a laugh. I certainly hope that issue doesn't generate similar discussion.


I say we close it and have everyone vote who they think won the debate. Then, that becomes the official forum opinion so this debate never, ever comes up again >.>

LOL again. Finally, some payoff from this thread.

[mrjohnstrange]

Ugh. Can't you people just enjoy reading comics?

Why do you have to take things at face value? This guy, who is apparently Jason Todd, says that Batman made him dye his hair black and you starting crying about how that contradicts comics wrote yeeaars ago.

First - who cares? What kinda of person lets a detail like that get in the way of enjoying a story?!
Second - there could be any number of explainations that still fit in with your precious continuity.

I hate being all "internet tough guy" but this thread is so pathetic and irrational that it's actually made me feel a bit angry :(

[Sn4tcH]

I just want to make a point, that I enjoyed this issue. I am perfectly capable of enjoying a story while arguing it's continuity.

So, for all the people saying "JUST ENJOY THE STORY!" I did! I hate Morrisons Jason Todd (which is the point) and I am thoroughly enjoying this thread involving Flamingo. I am in the camp that thinks Morrison is "genius".

I'm not crazy enough to not enjoy the story, despite my questions with continuity.

[AiyokuSama]

I'm not crazy enough to not enjoy the story, despite my questions with continuity.

I must be crazy then :wink:

Actually the continuity issue isn't even my main issue with the B&R5, it's just the one others decided to comment on.

I've been enjoying the series to date, but this past issue fell flat for me. Mostly because there was little to no forward progression of the story. It felt like a filler to me. Okay, we had gore on a plane and Batman and Robin got on TV, apparently shielding Penguin. Damian got served more humble pie. But. Meh.

It wasn't my thing.

[Sn4tcH]

I've been enjoying the series to date, but this past issue fell flat for me. Mostly because there was little to no forward progression of the story. It felt like a filler to me. Okay, we had gore on a plane and Batman and Robin got on TV, apparently shielding Penguin. Damian got served more humble pie. But. Meh.

I actually mostly agree with this. I've stated in another thread that my main problem with Jason is this whole marketing thing he's got going on. It's clever, but it grates on me so badly, that I don't like the character. If I had to rank them I would Morrisons Jason at the bottom as far as people who've written him so far. But yes, being the middle of a three part arc, it makes sense that things would slow down. But man, I can't wait to see Flamingo woop up on Jason.

[DetectiveDupin]

I'm all for closing this.

[pariah-1972]

Jason should die his hair purple .:smile:

[CYOTI]

36 pages and a good portion of which is about this "hair controversy". Some of you people have no shame

[BooCoo]

I'm all for closing this.

LOL, Whatever for? This is a gorgeous train wreck of a thread, with over 12,000 views. Sirens is a distant second with 6,000 plus.

At this point, it's painfully clear that:

Some think Morrison a genius no matter what
Some think Morrison an idiot no matter what
People love hair
Jason has mighty thighs
Jason loves red
Morrison has a red and black fetish
Morrison has a gore fetish
Morrison has a face fetish
Continuity is made up and figured out later, or made to "fit"
Morrison is aping the "Dead Pool" with Clint Eastwood
Pocket Universes are all the rage
Bruce really needs to come back, now. Enough nonsense. :biggrin:

[Sn4tcH]

LOL, Whatever for? This is a gorgeous train wreck of a thread, with over 12,000 views. Sirens is a distant second with 6,000 plus.

At this point, it's painfully clear that:

Some think Morrison a genius no matter what
Some think Morrison an idiot no matter what
People love hair
Jason has mighty thighs
Jason loves red
Morrison has a red and black fetish
Morrison has a gore fetish
Morrison has a face fetish
Continuity is made up and figured out later, or made to "fit"
Morrison is aping the "Dead Pool" with Clint Eastwood
Pocket Universes are all the rage
Bruce really needs to come back, now. Enough nonsense. :biggrin:

Silly BooCoo, haven't you heard? None of those things matter, it's all about the hair.

[Will.S]

I don't even know what the hell this thread is about anymore, I just saw it inflate to 500+ posts and went like, "Holy sh*t WTF?".

[the goddamn batman]

WTF? Hair, that's WTF!!! Haaaaaaaiiiiiiiiirrr!!!!!!!11!!!1!

[Captain Jim]

it grates on me so badly, that I don't like the character.

Are we supposed to like the character?


LOL, Whatever for? This is a gorgeous train wreck of a thread, with over 12,000 views. Sirens is a distant second with 6,000 plus.

At this point, it's painfully clear that:

Some think Morrison a genius no matter what
Some think Morrison an idiot no matter what
People love hair
Jason has mighty thighs
Jason loves red
Morrison has a red and black fetish
Morrison has a gore fetish
Morrison has a face fetish
Continuity is made up and figured out later, or made to "fit"
Morrison is aping the "Dead Pool" with Clint Eastwood
Pocket Universes are all the rage
Bruce really needs to come back, now. Enough nonsense. :biggrin:

LOL. Thank you.

[Jorriss]

Ahh my image link didnt work ><

[Sn4tcH]

Are we supposed to like the character?

No, but I mean... we don't "like" The Joker. But we enjoy reading his stories. I just don't like "marketing" Jason Todd.

[Artificial idiot]

But we enjoy reading his stories. I just don't like "marketing" Jason Todd.
I'm actually wondering how far Jason is willing to take this whole marketing theme. Do you think he sits up all night cold calling the citizens of Gotham to inform them how his brand of crime fighting is scientifically proven to be 20% more effective than brand X?

[stillanerd]

WTF? Hair, that's WTF!!! Haaaaaaaiiiiiiiiirrr!!!!!!!11!!!1!

Jeez, how sad is it that the biggest revelation out of this whole issue is that Jason "Better Off Dead" Todd had his hair dyed, anyway. At the rate this is going, this might as well be his theme song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFy-yzj02FE

:evilsmile:

[BooCoo]

Silly BooCoo, haven't you heard? None of those things matter, it's all about the hair.

*facepalm* HOW COULD I FORGET?

Oh, well, carry on...only redheads should post here.

I hope Bruce returns with dreadlocks. :biggrin:

[Sandy Hausler]

Jeez, how sad is it that the biggest revelation out of this whole issue is that Jason "Better Off Dead" Todd had his hair dyed, anyway. At the rate this is going, this might as well be his theme song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFy-yzj02FE

:evilsmile:

The original Jason Todd, the circus performer, had reddish blonde hair (as I recall) and died it. But when they rebooted him to be the street punk Jason Todd his hair was black.

Sandy Hausler

[stillanerd]

The original Jason Todd, the circus performer, had reddish blonde hair (as I recall) and died it. But when they rebooted him to be the street punk Jason Todd his hair was black.

Sandy Hausler

Oh, I'm aware of that (although hair is technically already "dead." :wink: ). It's just Morrison used that aspect of the Pre-Crisis Jason Todd and applied it to the Post-Crisis Jason Todd.

[Sandy Hausler]

Oh, I'm aware of that (although hair is technically already "dead." :wink: ). It's just Morrison used that aspect of the Pre-Crisis Jason Todd and applied it to the Post-Crisis Jason Todd.

And I have no problem like that. What's another continuity punch between friends.

Sandy Hausler