Why do so many seem to consider rape worse than murder?

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

In comics I mean?
Why is Doctor Light for example, more vilified than The Joker by fandom in general?

[Arvandor]

Not just comics. This question applies to all of fiction (and much of real life).

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

Not just comics. This question applies to all of fiction (and much of real life).
True, But it seems particularly pronounced in Comics because several characters have literally killed thousands, or in the case of Black Adam, Millions.

[howyadoin]

Why is Doctor Light for example, more vilified than The Joker by fandom in general?I'd say that shitty writing plays a big part.

[darkhanamaru]

i think it is also because many are sensitive to continual gratuitous violence against woman in comics that don't move the story along. part of what howy said...shitty writing.

[Reptisaurus!]

Sexualized violence, in American culture at least, is more shocking than non-sexual violence.

(It certainly is to me.)

[Jared]

It's not just comics. If The Joker commited even a single rape in The Dark Knight in addition to the dozens of murders, you wouldn't see so many T-shirts with his face.

It feels okay to get vicarious thrills from a bad guy killing with impunity and bringing a city, nation or planet to its knees. It's a power fantasy. But (almost) nobody wants to root for a rapist. Killing can make you Bad Ass. Raping just makes you Vile and Twisted.

And I liked Identity Crisis, but those rape pages were uncomfortable to read, though the event itself was important to the story.

[Michael P]

Taking the discussion out of the realm of nerdity for a moment, murder is a crime that, once it's done, it's over. For a rape victim, the trauma can continue for long after the actual act is completed.

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

Taking the discussion out of the realm of nerdity for a moment, murder is a crime that, once it's done, it's over. For a rape victim, the trauma can continue for long after the actual act is completed.
For the victim of a murder though, nothing continues. A rape victim can find happiness, or even peace eventually.
A murder victim can never find anything again.

[Monty_Cristo]

It's not just comics. If The Joker commited even a single rape in The Dark Knight in addition to the dozens of murders, you wouldn't see so many T-shirts with his face.

i don't believe that for one second. i haven't gone to a halloween party where at least one person wasn't dressed as one of the droogs from Clockwork Orange. or how about Freddy Krueger; a pedophile, rapist, and child murderer?

[howyadoin]

It's not just comics. If The Joker commited even a single rape in The Dark Knight in addition to the dozens of murders, you wouldn't see so many T-shirts with his face. I dunno about that. I've seen photos today of people wearing "Free Polanski" pins.

[Abomination]

In comics I mean?
Why is Doctor Light for example, more vilified than The Joker by fandom in general?

I think it's the Ted Bundy effect. We think of guys like Bundy when we hear rape and we all know he killed his victims.

As in rapist are killers, but most killers aren't rapists.

I also think that most people could imagine themselves killing someone under the right circumstances, but rape is for the trult depraved.

[Michael P]

I dunno about that. I've seen photos today of people wearing "Free Polanski" pins.

Kramer's Law.

[howyadoin]

Kramer's Law.I'm not sure if it's that simple. I think it's more this idea that artists shouldn't be held to the same standards as regular people, because they're special.

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

I'm not sure if it's that simple. I think it's more this idea that artists shouldn't be held to the same standards as regular people, because they're special.

Does anyone beleive that except ......
Artists?

[howyadoin]

Does anyone beleive that except ......
Artists?I've seen photos today of people wearing "Free Polanski" pins.

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

I've seen photos today of people wearing "Free Polanski" pins.
I think thats more political than anything else though.There are people who would oppose candy if the french denounced it.

[The Watcher]

Another reason is that murder is more understandable and more potentially identifiable to people than rape. Many people can imagine some circumstance or situation that could potentially drive them to kill, or if not them at least drive an otherwise good person to kill. Not many people can do the same for rape.

[Omega Alpha]

In part it because in some cases killing someone can be justified (self-defense) and some murders are understandable and justifiable (though doesn't mean excusable). But there's no justification in any way for rape. Also, who never thought, even if joking, in killing dictators, murderers, etc? Seeing a character killing people works as a fantasy of power.

And people don't care when characters get killed when they are either evil or faceless and unnamed, thus the murderer works as either power fantasy for the former or simply for lack of connection to the later. But it's harder (or impossible) to despersonalize a rape victim, or see it's rape as justified.

And it's not only a comics thing, of course.

[Monty_Cristo]

In part it because in some cases killing someone can be justified (self-defense) and some murders are understandable and justifiable (though doesn't mean excusable). But there's no justification in any way for rape.

what if it's to repopulate the planet?

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

In part it because in some cases killing someone can be justified (self-defense) and some murders are understandable and justifiable (though doesn't mean excusable). But there's no justification in any way for rape. Also, who never thought, even if joking, in killing dictators, murderers, etc? Seeing a character killing people works as a fantasy of power.

And people don't care when characters get killed when they are either evil or faceless and unnamed, thus the murderer works as either power fantasy for the former or simply for lack of connection to the later. But it's harder (or impossible) to despersonalize a rape victim, or see it's rape as justified.

And it's not only a comics thing, of course.

Confusing killing and murder is like confusing rape and sex.

[howyadoin]

what if it's to repopulate the planet?The end justifies the means? Is that seriously what you're suggesting?

[Mike Pothier]

Confusing killing and murder is like confusing rape and sex.

Not quite. Killing is usually considered bad, even in the best of circumstances.

My view is, rape is a corruption of something most humans hold dear, and that makes them extremely uncomfortable when faced with it. And like Michael said earlier, the victims of rape typically go through years of trauma. Once a man or woman is dead, they're dead.

[Shellhead]

Another reason that is very specific to superhero comics is the triviality of death. "Dead" characters come back to life all the time in comics. But once a comicbook character has been raped, she (or he) will always be a rape victim.

[Sabrinaset]

Another reason that is very specific to superhero comics is the triviality of death. "Dead" characters come back to life all the time in comics. But once a comicbook character has been raped, she (or he) will always be a rape victim.

You beat me to it. Most of us have lost track of how many times certain characters have come back from the dead, but the Wasp is ALWAYS going to be known as the woman Hank beat up.

[Michael P]

I'm not sure if it's that simple. I think it's more this idea that artists shouldn't be held to the same standards as regular people, because they're special.

And that's not an example of people being stupid?

Seriously, though, fuck *that* noise. Aaron Sorkin, Chuck Berry, Robert Downey, Jr., even Rick James all served their time. Anyone who tries to play that card can kiss my white ass.

[StoneGold]

You said rape twice.

[Cloudman]

The end justifies the means? Is that seriously what you're suggesting?

You're a pirate now! :eek:

[StoneGold]

The end justifies the means? Is that seriously what you're suggesting?

Well, you know, if she's frigid.

[Mike Pothier]

You said rape twice.

We rape the shit out of them at the number 6 dance later on

[mikekerr3]

Another reason is that murder is more understandable and more potentially identifiable to people than rape. Many people can imagine some circumstance or situation that could potentially drive them to kill, or if not them at least drive an otherwise good person to kill. Not many people can do the same for rape.

I think that is it,a murder can be sometimes justified, a rape can never be justified.

Murder can be evil, rape is simply evil.

[StoneGold]

We rape the shit out of them at the number 6 dance later on

This one is actually from a 2000 Year Old Man bit, but if there was no rape, I'd be out of business!

[StoneGold]

I think that is it,a murder can be sometimes justified, a rape can never be justified.

Murder can be evil, rape is simply evil.

No, killing can be justified. Murder is when you're evil killing.


And you can justify rape. Because she may have said no, but she was really thinking yes. I mean, look how she was dressed, she was asking for it.

[Minkie]

Here's an observation from a certified maniac. And I'm not speaking figuratively.

The serial murderer David Berkowitz, aka "Son of Sam", expressed mystification when confessing one of his murders. Mystification, that is, about the extreme fear shown by his victim.

He said that he didn't understand why she was so upset because he was only going to kill her. It wasn't as if he were going to do something really bad such as rape her.

Maybe even maniacs pick up on the zeitgeist.

[Shellhead]

You beat me to it. Most of us have lost track of how many times certain characters have come back from the dead, but the Wasp is ALWAYS going to be known as the woman Hank beat up.

Marvel tried to fix that by doing something even worse to Ultimate Wasp. But the message was muddled when they decided to kill the original Wasp around the same time.

[Slam_Bradley]

Can we all remember that murder is a specific legal term. Killing in self-defense is not murder. Killing without malice is not murder. Killing through negligence is not murder. Meat is not murder.

[StoneGold]

Can we all remember that murder is a specific legal term. Killing in self-defense is not murder. Killing without malice is not murder. Killing through negligence is not murder. Meat is not murder.

Problem is there's a colloquial aspect to it as well. Like people using assault, when they really probably mean battery. It's Chinatown, Jake.


But for the record, I agree with you, and kind of brought that up a few posts up. Even colloquially, murder is being used a bit broadly by some people.

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

Which is why I made the points about killing/murder Sex/rape.
Killing in self defense is good. Killing for amusement is bad. Sex with someone who wants it is good, sex with someone who doesn't is bad.

[Slam_Bradley]

Oh look...the sock puppet/trolls migrated over here.

[Kees_L]

So o.k., murder is evil and rape is evil.
But I tend to think of rape as very degrading necessarily - without much other possible purpose than to degrade and abuse, although with murder there's still some stuff to differentiate perhaps.

[StoneGold]

I think it's as much it's easier to describe murder to a six year old than rape. Death is easier to conceptualize. But really, would you rather be raped or murdered?


And yes, for some rape leads to never ending psychological trauma that destroys the lives of the victim and everyone around them... but given the actual rape statistics, I'm going to say the number of people who are raped who eventually get over it and leave relatively normal, productive lives outweighs them.

[Kees_L]

Well sure, one may get over being raped. But try getting over being murdered.
You'll meet up with certain impracticalities.

[StoneGold]

Well sure, one may get over being raped. But try getting over being murdered.
You'll meet up with certain impracticalities.

That's what I'm saying. And that may be part of why rape is looked at as more evil, because victims are around to say "You don't know! You don't know!" Whereas murder victims aren't as vocal.

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

That's what I'm saying. And that may be part of why rape is looked at as more evil, because victims are around to say "You don't know! You don't know!" Whereas murder victims aren't as vocal.

Sure they are, but only the Crimson Avenger can hear them.

[Kees_L]

That's what I'm saying. And that may be part of why rape is looked at as more evil, because victims are around to say "You don't know! You don't know!" Whereas murder victims aren't as vocal.

Then it must be we are in agreement. I feel revered for it! :smile:

[Sean Walsh]

Because rape is a crime that violates your body and completely tears down your sense of self-security.......oh, and unlike murder, with rape the victim LIVES. That part is what freaks me out.

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

...oh, and unlike murder, with rape the victim LIVES. .

Is that a bug, or a feature?

[StoneGold]

Because rape is a crime that violates your body and completely tears down your sense of self-security.......oh, and unlike murder, with rape the victim LIVES. That part is what freaks me out.

Yeah, but the same could be said about assault and battery. And doesn't society generally consider raping and murdering someone worse than just raping them?

[OverMaster]

Well sure, one may get over being raped. But try getting over being murdered.
You'll meet up with certain impracticalities.

Well, the OP specified 'in comics', where death is usually the equivalent of a brief break at some blurry point in limbo.

[mailedbypostman1]

Well, the OP specified 'in comics', where death is usually the equivalent of a brief break at some blurry point in limbo.

Sometimes death is just another opponent you have to beat. :biggrin:

[StoneGold]

And Rape wasn't represented by a cute goth chick.

[Karl O'Neill]

Nobody ever mentions this when comparing rape to murder.

Rape might be vile.

But if someone murders you, Don't they KILL everything you have done in life, And everthing you WILL or WOULD HAVE done in life.

With rape. many people go on to live great lives and achieve many things.

Both are heinous crimes but think about that.

[OverMaster]

Something to ponder is our societies will always look at any expression of sex worse than at any equivalent expression of 'pure' violence.

Hell, even kids witnessing a brutal, bloody beating will always be favored by most parents over their little angels watching an innocently bared pair of female breasts.

[mailedbypostman1]

Hell, even kids witnessing a brutal, bloody beating will always be favored by most parents over their little angels watching an innocently bared pair of female breasts.

i believe it's narrowed down to nipples now.

[howyadoin]

Can we all remember that murder is a specific legal term. Killing in self-defense is not murder. Killing without malice is not murder. Killing through negligence is not murder. Meat is not murder.http://rlv.zcache.com/meat_is_murder_tasty_tasty_murder_sticker-p217958310535220672qjcl_400.jpg

[Monty_Cristo]

The end justifies the means? Is that seriously what you're suggesting?

no. i was clearly asking a question. one you kind of danced around and answered w/ a question. :smile:

[Alex]

In comics I mean?
Why is Doctor Light for example, more vilified than The Joker by fandom in general?

The Joker's a better character who wasn't dragged out of the "No One Gives A Crap" closet and given a rapist title so he seemed more threatening.

I'm going to pitch an idea to DC where Monsieur Mallah molested Karate Kid, and i will bring back 2 characters into new fame and sales.

[howyadoin]

no. i was clearly asking a question. one you kind of danced around and answered w/ a question. :smile:I kinda figured my question made my position on the matter obvious. But since you apparently need it spelled out for you, no, repopulating the planet isn't justification for rape.

[Alex]

I kinda figured my question made my position on the matter obvious. But since you apparently need it spelled out for you, no, repopulating the planet isn't justification for rape.
http://daily.greencine.com/archives/authority.jpg

Surely there are exceptions in life threatening trans dimensional alien cases?

[Syrant]

In comics I mean?
Why is Doctor Light for example, more vilified than The Joker by fandom in general?

Actually, I thought had Joker raped Barbara in "The Killing Joke" at first. It didn't really change my opinion of him at all. I think attachment to the rapist character matters.

Like, The Comedian. He raped, killed, and was just a bad person overall. But I still spent half of Watchmen going "Heh, The Comedian was awesome."

[Kees_L]

Nobody ever mentions this when comparing rape to murder.

Rape might be vile.

But if someone murders you, Don't they KILL everything you have done in life, And everthing you WILL or WOULD HAVE done in life.

With rape. many people go on to live great lives and achieve many things.

Both are heinous crimes but think about that.

I see what you mean.
But still I think of rape as a particularly vile act, more so than a 'clean' murder, if such could exist.
For me rape has to be utterly respectless and demeaning, like adding needless gruesomeness to a murder, or SLT.

Something to ponder is our societies will always look at any expression of sex worse than at any equivalent expression of 'pure' violence.

I don't know if I can look at rape as an expression of sex.
Or even as 'mere' violence.

Maybe I think of rape as particularly hainous - besides the utter respectlessness of it - because there'd be a 'maniacal part' to it also: people might be driven to commit murder. But for rape, one would have to be a maniac, or at least act on a maniacal, sickly urge. Like with child abuse or torture as well.

Maybe a society's view that you propose would be working the same way: for wishing to say that 'people could perhaps be capable of murder, but should never be capable of rape'.

But yeah, trying to weigh or balance out evils might just be a difficult thing.

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

So being disrespected and demeaned is worse than dying?

[Kees_L]

So being disrespected and demeaned is worse than dying?

I wouldn't know.
But I would think: potentionally, yes.

Murder needn't be as clear-cut as it would seem, but yeah, being murdered will be rather final, obviously.

But people could maybe be brought to commit murder.

And rape seems final to me as well, yet in a different way:
rape can never serve any other 'purpose' than just be totally vile. To commit a rape in full won't be an easy thing - harder than murder anyway I would think.
So as an act to do to another - yes I could see that as worse than certain acts of murder I reckon'.

You disagree?

[Mike Pothier]

So being disrespected and demeaned is worse than dying?

Every woman I've talked to on the subject would rather be killed then raped. Every. One.

Plus, rape has very little to do with actual sex. It uses sex to demean and humiliate. Hence the word rape being used in other contexts.

[howyadoin]

So being disrespected and demeaned is worse than dying?First off, there's a lot more to rape than disrespect.

And secondly, do you know any women?

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

First off, there's a lot more to rape than disrespect.

First off I was responding to a specific point


For me rape has to be utterly respectless and demeaning, like adding needless gruesomeness to a murder, or SLT.


Did you not catch that how? Or did you choose not too?
:rolleyes:


And secondly, do you know any women?
No I don't. I was raised inside of a cave by a robot.

:rolleyes:

Every woman I've talked to on the subject would rather be killed then raped. Every. One.


I suspect that's either ignorance or hyperbole. I've known people of both sexes who have been raped, and while some were suicidal at first, I don't know any who weren't able to find a way past it, or honestly though they would be better off dead in retrospect
I
You disagree?

Yes, death is permanent, pain, trauma, suffering, etc aren't.

[Michael P]

First off, there's a lot more to rape than disrespect.

Hell, I'd say "demeaning" is too soft a term.

[Jared]

But since you apparently need it spelled out for you, no, repopulating the planet isn't justification for rape.

Anybody who can't talk a women into bed when the survival of the species is at risk should probably kill himself anyway.

[Tages]

Did you not catch that how? Or did you choose not too?
:rolleyes:

No I don't. I was raised inside of a cave by a robot.

:rolleyes:

Is there any time when you're not acting like a petulant child?

[Disciple_of_the_Bat]

Is there any time when you're not acting like a petulant child?

No. No there isn't. :rolleyes:

[Michael P]

Anybody who can't talk a women into bed when the survival of the species is at risk should probably kill himself anyway.

That, or wait to have a disturbingly sadomasochistic near-death experience which reveals to him a reason to live.

[mikekerr3]

Anybody who can't talk a women into bed when the survival of the species is at risk should probably kill himself anyway.

Anyone who thinks that the species can be saved by a single couple is too stupid to be breeding stock anyway.:rolleyes:

[mikekerr3]

No. No there isn't. :rolleyes:

I didn't think so.

[Fenris]

I don't think it's a rational value judgement: it's not like everyone sits down when they're seven years old, starts with "I think therefore I am," and deduces an objective table of comparative evil. These judgements are more intuitive.

If I had to guess, I'd say that murder is the extreme end of a scale of violence that almost everyone participates in. Most of us have punched people; murder seems like a lot more of that. It's obviously bad, but we can kind of wrap our heads around it.

What is rape the extreme end of? You can probably make a case for it being the extreme end of seduction or something, but most people don't think that way. When they have sex, they're trying to love someone (or at least, pleasure themselves) rather than using sex to enjoy abusing someone else. Most of us aren't on that spectrum at all.

õ
Or so we hope!

[Kees_L]

I suspect that's either ignorance or hyperbole. I've known people of both sexes who have been raped, and while some were suicidal at first, I don't know any who weren't able to find a way past it, or honestly though they would be better off dead in retrospect


Yes, death is permanent, pain, trauma, suffering, etc aren't.

So rape or suffering won't be too bad 'cause it don't kill ya?

Wow, if you think (like) that than we had better disagree.