Do fans want "Birds of Prey" to return? [Archive]

Kiryu

09-28-2009, 12:28 PM

I do want the Birds back. I liked Babs as a proactive hero. First off I want Dinah back. No one has done anything worth a damn with her after she was taken from BoP. In fact just the opposite, she's been in nothing but crap and McDuffie's editorial face-raped JLA. Babs and Dinah are best friends, forget the Green Arrow nonsense and bring Dinah home. And lets bring Sin back from exile too

Second, I want Huntress and Manhunter on the team. They work together well over in the Manhunter back up and Kate is just the kind of hero Babs would recruit. Adding them to the BoP mix would be great. Andreyko could even write and I'd be happy.

Misfit should be included, somewhere, somehow, but not dramatically changed. I'd also like to see Cassandra come into the fold, as she and Babs are now both ex-Bats there could be some mining there. Plus Cass and Dinah both have had intense encounters with Shiva, who I would love as a Guest star.

Then, get them out of Gotham and make them Street Level heroes of the world. Street level adventures all over the world. Enough Gotham. Maybe have them intersect with the world traveling Red Robin and the League of Assassins.

Keep it in theme with Gail's tremendous story. Light hearted, but not stupid. Get Babs out of her funk and back into action.

ryerye17

09-28-2009, 12:34 PM

Kiryu

09-28-2009, 12:35 PM

Don't you want Lady Blackhawk as well?

I would love a BoP resurrection as well, and I want to see more of the old gals as well.

Although to be honest I feel this is in the wrong forum. YABS is that way vvvvvv DC Universe is that way ^^^^^

I absolutely do, apologies for forgetting.

invisiboy

09-28-2009, 12:42 PM

I absolutely do, apologies for forgetting.

Has Lady Blackhawke appeared since BoP ended? It'd be a shame for her to get stuck in comic-book limbo. She's a COOL character.

invisiboy

09-28-2009, 12:43 PM

4thHorseman

09-28-2009, 12:47 PM

I read the book for the last 30-40 issues, and while it wasn't bad, I look back now and don't really remember any of it. None of it was all that memorable for me.

So really, it doesn't matter to me.

invisiboy

09-28-2009, 12:49 PM

I read the book for the last 30-40 issues, and while it wasn't bad, I look back now and don't really remember any of it. None of it was all that memorable for me.

So really, it doesn't matter to me.

Perhaps DC should go with the original "one-shot/miniseries" approach to BoP?

Cayman

09-28-2009, 12:55 PM

Not really, the book died when Gail Simone left.

WorstThingUS

09-28-2009, 01:02 PM

Not really, the book died when Gail Simone left.

But existed quite well before her so it's not impossible. Bring it back, put Black Canary back in it as her relationship with Oracle was the book's foundation and god knows she's wasted alongside Green Arrow. And hell, finally fulfill the promise of them training Cassandra (which lasted for an issue) now that she's Batgirl.

And there's nothing wrong with this being in the Batman forum given the many ties to the Bat-verse from the creator of BOP being former Batgirl, her father is Commissioner Gordon, her ex-lover is now Batman and was Robin; another team member was inspired by Batman (The Huntress) and apparently so was Misfit who runs around in a Batman t-shirt yelling "Dark vengeance" (and we were totally cheated out of the great comic moment when Bruce meets her and realizes this is how she sees him).

Lorendiac

09-28-2009, 01:04 PM

As we all know, DC abandoned its plan to restore Babs as Batgirl. "Birds of Prey" was canceled so that Babs would star in the Batgirl book. Since a different Batgirl was ultimately chosen, will DC bring back the "Birds of Prey" ongoing series? And do fans *want* it back?

If not, why not?

Would I want it back? That would depend on two things:

1) Who would be writing it?
2) Who would be the regular characters be?

Frankly, 1) is more important than 2). I can easily imagine a "Birds of Prey" which would strike me as so mediocre that I wouldn't bother to keep up with it -- as written by any of at least 20 professional comic book writers I can think of.

batGRRRl4ever

09-28-2009, 01:11 PM

But existed quite well before her so it's not impossible. Bring it back, put Black Canary back in it as her relationship with Oracle was the book's foundation and god knows she's wasted alongside Green Arrow. And hell, finally fulfill the promise of them training Cassandra (which lasted for an issue) now that she's Batgirl.

And add me to Misfit fans. Love her!

Ug, does that cancerous leech Cass, the "anti-Batgirl" (said as such by her creator who HATED Babs-Batgirl) have to follow Babs everywhere and take panel time from her continuosly for an identity?? If Cass fans think she needs to do that to exist, then it just goes to show how overall weak her character is. I will truly rejoice if the day ever comes and her character is KILLED OFF. ENOUGH with her LEECHING from Barbara's moniker and history!!!

invisiboy

09-28-2009, 01:14 PM

Ug, does that cancerous leech Cass, the "anti-Batgirl" (said as such by her creator who HATED Babs-Batgirl) have to follow Babs everywhere and take panel time from her continuosly for an identity?? If Cass fans think she needs to do that to exist, then it just goes to show how overall weak her character is. I will truly rejoice if the day ever comes and her character is KILLED OFF. ENOUGH with her LEECHING from Barbara's moniker and history!!!

"Cancerous leech"? That's rather harsh, buddy. I am not a Cassandra fan either, and I am a huge Babs/Batgirl fan ... but talk like that only angers other people who are fans and creates a hostile atmosphere.

But I do agree with you that I would not want Cassandra anywhere near a new BoP title.

batGRRRl4ever

09-28-2009, 01:18 PM

"Cancerous leech"? That's rather harsh, buddy. I am not a Cassandra fan either, and I am a huge Babs/Batgirl fan ... but talk like that only angers other people who are fans and creates a hostile atmosphere.

True, it's just that I dislike that character so as she was created as a literal insult to her predecessor, why else would her creator label her as the anti-Batgirl from his expressed extreme disdain of Babs-Batgirl? I just don't like fans of Cass putting out there for the "anti-Batgirl" to, and I just don't see it any other way, leech herself onto Babs to continue that character's existence. I know it was harsh, but it's just the way I see it. Funny as how there isn't ONE other fictional character that ever gets that type of reaction from me.

invisiboy

09-28-2009, 01:33 PM

True, it's just that I dislike that character so as she was created as a literal insult to her predecessor, why else would her creator label her as the anti-Batgirl from his expressed extreme disdain of Babs-Batgirl? I just don't like fans of Cass putting out there for the "anti-Batgirl" to, and I just don't see it any other way, leech herself onto Babs to continue that character's existence. I know it was harsh, but it's just the way I see it. Funny as how there isn't ONE other fictional character that ever gets that type of reaction from me.

Well, fortunately, the Cassandra Batgirl is a thing of the past. And I hope it stays that way. I am not interested in Steph at all, but I think she's a slight improvement. Frankly, I believe the Batgirl name should have been retired after Babs got shot.

As for your passion for Batgirl/Babs, I am there with you. I bought a pile of old Batman Family comics last week and am having the time of my life reading those old BatBabs stories. Some are crummy, but some are quite good.

ryerye17

09-28-2009, 02:12 PM

Why is this the wrong forum for this thread? Wasn't BoP considered a Batman book? The "Batman Family" symbol even appeared for a while on the cover.

I apologize. My brain must be somewhere else. I thought this was in the WW forum.

myme

09-28-2009, 02:23 PM

And hell, finally fulfill the promise of them training Cassandra (which lasted for an issue) now that she's Batgirl.
Don't you mean Stephanie?

Alexx1

09-28-2009, 02:41 PM

Yes, bring BOP back. Have Gail Simone write it. Heck even team her up with Tony Bedard as co-writer. So many of DC book now have co-writers, this one can be one more. Get a kick ass artist!

Have Oracle, Black Canary, Huntress, and Lady Blackhawk the CORE forcus of the book with a dash of Misfit and Manhunter.

And leave them in Gotham. Something about having them outside of Gotham just doesn't work for me. I mean Oracle and Huntress scream "Gotham". While they may sleep or rest their head in Gotham, that doesn' mean their adventures can't take them all over the world.

Take these women all over the world! While they work well as individual characters, they are at their best when they are sharing panel time. This book is sorely missed and needed in the DCU!

Global Honored

09-28-2009, 02:42 PM

Alexx1

09-28-2009, 02:57 PM

Can i just answer with a YES? Gail's Birds run is so good. Bedard has done some good stuff as well. I just hope their is an audience for it. I wouldn't want to sacrifice Secret Six to get a BOP series, but having both would put a big fat smile on my face.

You don't have to sacrifice one for the other. Gail could write both and keep WW. That's why I also suggested getting another writer on the book if the loads too much. As good as a writer as she was a couple years back handling the BIRDS, she's an even better writer now. I'm sure she has more storie to tell for the ladies. I can't imagine it not being a better book than was before; She's grown as a writer. I'd like to see this book come back sometime next year with a bang! BOP vs. SS!

WorstThingUS

09-28-2009, 03:37 PM

Don't you mean Stephanie?

Yes. My bad.

Volvic

09-28-2009, 03:55 PM

I would love it if Bop came back, even if it was just a few mini series every now and then. I do miss the old team. Having Gail back at the helm would just be a bonus.

noh-varr

09-28-2009, 04:16 PM

I really miss Birds of Prey, although Secret Six has replaced it for fun adventures, I miss the book still. Also to put the great cast back into play so they don't become throw away lines to show how macho other heroes are for screwing them would be nice. Black Canary coming back would be essential though, not only because she was a great part of the team, but she was essentially rebooted into the horrible mess she was before Birds of Prey ever existed.

meek?

09-28-2009, 05:10 PM

Yes, please bring it back.

After the inevitable confrontation w/ the Gotham City Sirens as a hard reintro to the team.

Just invest in havin' a great creative team for it. Marc Andreyko comes to mind as writer. Someone of Ryan Sook's caliber should be on art chores.

Pull Black Canary back into the fold since she's been screwed over by internal politics in the DC offices w/ what happened to JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA.

Main cast :: Oracle. Black Canary. Huntress. Manhunter.

Supporting cast :: Lady Blackhawk. Sin. Misfit.

Have story arcs that feature women of the DCU that should be prominent yet are in danger of obscurity AGAIN... I'm lookin' @ Cassandra Cain and Vixen.

Peace.

Flash's Lightning

09-28-2009, 05:23 PM

I think a Birds of Prey book volume 2 would be awesome if done correctly. Just give it a tight focus, solid characters, etc.

And put Gail on it, for god's sake. Dan said he's all about putting people where their strength lies, well, here you go. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. :tongue:

carabas

09-29-2009, 12:53 AM

I don't even see the need for a vol. 2. Just start at #100+, wherever they left off.

Just as long as you get Gail Simone to write it.
Or Warren Ellis. A book with a cyber-superhero and occasional smut is kinda up his alley.

myme

09-29-2009, 03:10 AM

carabas

09-29-2009, 06:06 AM

pariah-1972

09-29-2009, 06:13 AM

Yes they do !

Alexx1

09-29-2009, 07:55 AM

In my opinion, just bringing back some of the original cast won't do it, and the cast grew too big already. Seeing more Oracle stories like the last Calculator / Platinum Flats ones, will shy away readers. The series needs a new attraction or a new direction.

For me BoP worked best, as there were Babs, Dinah and Helena only. It would be interesting to see, how they would work together, with Oracle returning to be a heroine and being an active field operator herself. That would require to get her out of that wheelchair and Dinah and Helena accompany her, though this alone may be a great story.

I'm not sure he series needs a "new" direction or attraction. I think it's just needs to get back to it's roots which seem to have left completely when Gail left the book. I think after the Dead of Winter arc BOP should have gone back to it's roots (the cast had gotten pretty big beginning with #100), smaller, more contained cast and focused it's attention on building Oracle and Huntress professional and personal relationship. I feel it was a mistake to have Bedard come in and do a bunch of one-shots (then giving the book to McKeevr) instead of giving him the book out right and letting him keep going with the momentum that Gail had gotten back with her last arc.

And don't get me started on Platinum Flats- a conceptional nightmare. I can't believe anyone in that DC office thought that would be a good idea. I can't for the life of me understand why they thought that would be remotely interesting. But the last thing that needed to happen with this book was changing the status quo entirely. It just didn't work. I still think if Bedard had been giving the book the moment Gail left and he had shifted the focus back to the core characters, namely Oracle, Huntress, and LB, it would have been a success. But we'll never know.

If this series could come back and be about Oracle, Huntress, LB, and add BC back; let's see a more mature and serious minded Misfit actually being trained by Oracle and Huntress and not just thrown out for comedy sake, let these women have 007 type missions around the world, focus on their personal lives and their friendship, that's enough right there really. They're all such dynmaic characters anyway. They don't need a lot of "new" to make them work. Let Gail run the ship. It would be all good!

invisiboy

09-29-2009, 07:56 AM

A new direction is what killed the series in the first place.
And the cast wasn't big. It was just Babs, Helena, and Zinda. With Misfit as regular supporting character. And one or two guest stars per arc to round out the field team.

Which "new direction" are you referring to? The book essentially had two: (1) when Gail took over, and (2) when Black Canary exited the cast.

I thoroughly enjoyed Gail's run, but the book lost half its heart when Canary was written out. To me, the Birds of Prey are Babs and Dinah. They are the core -- and all other characters are pure icing.

carabas

09-29-2009, 08:06 AM

The McKeever and beyond direction, where Babs turned into an incompetant hack who had one and only one villain in the entire universe: calculator.

Alexx1

09-29-2009, 08:34 AM

Which "new direction" are you referring to? The book essentially had two: (1) when Gail took over, and (2) when Black Canary exited the cast.

I thoroughly enjoyed Gail's run, but the book lost half its heart when Canary was written out. To me, the Birds of Prey are Babs and Dinah. They are the core -- and all other characters are pure icing.

I can see where for many it would be Babs and Dinah but to me the core of BOP are Babs, Dinah, and Helena. While I liked the book Dixon wrote which featured Babs and Dinah, Gail breathed a new light into the book and everything written before it was simply okay. I actually only thought one arc of Dixon's run was outstanding and that was "The Hunt for Oracle". The rest I could leave without. It was Gail that made this book better than TV. Huntress presence in the book just changed the dynamic for the better. Oracle and Dinah's characters came alive for me for the first time under Gail and seeing them interact more with Helena. I think all three characters became more interesting and it was do them sharing panel time. Gail just had something special going, that's really not been duplicated since. I mean some of it you can find in SS. Yet as good as SS is, there's nothing "special" or timely about it. BOP was a special book. But for me this book is and was at it's best when it was about the professional and personal dynamic between those THREE ladies! I don't think there's anything better in a comic book then seeing those three together! I miss that a lot!

WorstThingUS

09-29-2009, 08:37 AM

And don't get me started on Platinum Flats- a conceptional nightmare. I can't believe anyone in that DC office thought that would be a good idea. I can't for the life of me understand why they thought that would be remotely interesting.

Amen. "Hey, how about an evil Silicon Valley? Wouldn't that be great!?!"

I thoroughly enjoyed Gail's run, but the book lost half its heart when Canary was written out. To me, the Birds of Prey are Babs and Dinah. They are the core -- and all other characters are pure icing.

Double amen. It was that long before Helena showed up, though Gail made it work so well it's hard to remember that there wasn't a trio, but even in that, you could always tell it was Babs & Dinah. She is to them what Wonder Woman is to Superman and Batman and what, ironically enough, Black Canary is to Green Lantern and Green Arrow: a nice, welcome addition, but not vital.

And did I mention how much I love Misfit? She. Must. Stay.

Alexx1

09-29-2009, 08:56 AM

And did I mention how much I love Misfit? She. Must. Stay.

For the longest time I couldn't stand Misfit. I just think BOP wasn't a book that needed teens in it; there were so many other books if that's what you were looking for. For the most part I still don't want to see BOP saturated with teens, though I could live with Misfit. But by the time Bedard got a hold of her, I was starting to come around. When you think about it, she's actually a character that's good for characters like Oracle and Huntress (she pushes them out of their comfort zone which only creates more "stories") and I think she could be a fabulous character. In order to take her seriously as a superhero though, I'd love to see her actually molded into one by Oracle and Huntress. I think that's what's missing in a lot of comics. It's like these kids are "just superheroes". We don't get to see or be apart of the maturation. Between Oracle, Huntress(and even BC), Misfit could be on-fire as a character done the road! That's some serious mamas to learn from! This is another reason BOP is needed! There were also a lot of stories from Gail's run (and some that Bedard left on the table) that still have life!

invisiboy

09-29-2009, 09:09 AM

If Birds of Prey does continue in some form, I'd love for Misfit to be involved. I think she has potential to be an amazing character. And despite her earliest appearances, I think she's pretty terrific. I definitely prefer her to Stephanie and Cassandra, the other female "bat teens".

DonC

09-29-2009, 09:34 AM

I hadn't really thought about it until I read this thread, but I haven't missed the series and probably wouldn't start reading it again.

Mia

09-29-2009, 10:23 AM

Alexx1

09-29-2009, 10:32 AM

It would depend on the creative team. I could get behind the book if someone like Fabian Nicienza or Chris Yost (two writers who know how to write strong intelligent female characters) were on the book.

It would also depend on the make up of the team. I would prefer for the book to be centered on only 3 main characters. A noirish and more adult (like Catwoman vol.2) would also make it more interesting, and less like an episode of Sex and The City.

I think I might have to skip on Fabian after reading his Network one shot. I've enjoyed his work for the most part and I'm loking forward to Azrael but maybe the ladies aren't his 'best" suit (so we'll have to disagree on this one - that he writes them strong and intelligent 'cause he didn't bring that to Network- unfortunately). The way he wrote and presented them left a bad taste in my mouth and I'm not so sure I want him to ever touch Huntress again. I've added him to the list of writers who simply don't get her or don't want to. Chris Yost on the other had would be an excellent choice!

invisiboy

09-29-2009, 10:53 AM

Static-Pulse

09-29-2009, 11:09 AM

If not, why not?

Because it's an outmoded concept. BoP was born of a time when Internet access was rare, highly technical, and definitely not portable. Ten years later (gosh, I feel old), the rules have changed. Any book that wanted to be the "spiritual successor" of BoP would need to look more like Global Frquency but even more forward looking than that.

BoP as we know it, though, has gone the way of the CD-ROM. I would hate to see any characters forced into such an anachronistic comic book.

invisiboy

09-29-2009, 11:15 AM

Because it's an outmoded concept. BoP was born of a time when Internet access was rare, highly technical, and definitely not portable. Ten years later (gosh, I feel old), the rules have changed. Any book that wanted to be the "spiritual successor" of BoP would need to look more like Global Frquency but even more forward looking than that.

BoP as we know it, though, has gone the way of the CD-ROM. I would hate to see any characters forced into such an anachronistic comic book.

Are you speaking mainly about the Oracle character, or the others as well?

Alexx1

09-29-2009, 11:16 AM

That's the only thing I didn't like about "The Network" was that Huntress seemed to be there to act as Batgirl's whipping post -- much like Batgirl was in the "Huntress: Year One" story.

Not only that, but he messed the whole Oracle/Huntress dynamic up as well. I felt like the way he wrote them, he missed what makes them click together so well and how well they know each other. No one probably knows what motivates Huntress better than Oracle. I could have done without preachy Oracle. I didn't think any of them came across looking that good: Oracle, Huntress, or Batgirl. It didn't feel like the one shot was that thought out. Actually the only thing remotely interesting about the Network was what the heck was going on with Misfit which I guess we'll never know now!

And I agree. the Batgirl/Huntress stuff in HYO was pretty heavyhand and I think there could have been a better, more creative way to show their earlier on friction. I do like that the concept that their animosity began much earlier on, just not the execution of it. Didn't Madison say in an interview she never really care much for Batgirl? Well it showed! But yes, its not neccessary to elevate one character by devaluing the other or writing them OOC. It makes for a poor story and leaves readers resentful.

invisiboy

09-29-2009, 11:27 AM

Not only that, but he messed the whole Oracle/Huntress dynamic up as well. I felt like the way he wrote them, he missed what makes them click together so well and how well they know each other. No one probably knows what motivates Huntress better than Oracle. I could have done without preachy Oracle. I didn't think any of them came across looking that good: Oracle, Huntress, or Batgirl. It didn't feel like the one shot was that thought out. Actually the only thing remotely interesting about the Network was what the heck was going on with Misfit which I guess we'll never know now!

And I agree. the Batgirl/Huntress stuff in HYO was pretty heavyhand and I think there could have been a better, more creative way to show their earlier on friction. I do like that the concept that their animosity began much earlier on, just not the execution of it. Didn't Madison say in an interview she never really care much for Batgirl? Well it showed! But yes, its not neccessary to elevate one character by devaluing the other or writing them OOC. It makes for a poor story and leaves readers resentful.

I wonder why Madison even included Batgirl in the "Huntress: Year One" story if she didn't like her. It's not as if Batgirl was actually still operating when Helena first came to Gotham.. And if Madison was trying to pay a nod to the BoP relationship somehow, she missed her mark. I agree with you that devaluing one character -- especially another good guy -- is a sorry way to elevate one character. And I felt the same way about "The Network". While my criticisms of that book are relatively few, I didn't like how Huntress was being dissed by Batgirl.

As for the Misfit stuff, I think we were supposed to believe she was losing her powers, so fans would throw her in the "will she be the new Batgirl?" pile. I hope that when we see her next, her powers are just fine.

Static-Pulse

09-29-2009, 12:17 PM

Are you speaking mainly about the Oracle character, or the others as well?

That's the shape of the team. You can add or subtract agents as you go, but there's always Oracle in the middle. I don't think it makes sense to design a book around an all-seeing Oracle directing her agents from the shadows, when anyone as capable as Black Canary or Huntress could just as easily hire Dylan Battles or such a character to build an Oracle app for their iPhone. Who needs to have Oracle yammering about how miserable her life is, when these days you can just check some bad guy's Facebook page to know where he is.

I believe the new Batgirl book is probably the best "return" of BoP as you'll get. It uses the idea of a two-person partnership, but it's not structured so that Stephanie is flying blind or not flying at all without Oracle to guide her.

batGRRRl4ever

09-29-2009, 12:23 PM

WorstThingUS

09-29-2009, 12:24 PM

I think I might have to skip on Fabian after reading his Network one shot. I've enjoyed his work for the most part and I'm loking forward to Azrael but maybe the ladies aren't his 'best" suit (so we'll have to disagree on this one - that he writes them strong and intelligent 'cause he didn't bring that to Network- unfortunately). The way he wrote and presented them left a bad taste in my mouth and I'm not so sure I want him to ever touch Huntress again. I've added him to the list of writers who simply don't get her or don't want to. Chris Yost on the other had would be an excellent choice!

Ladies? How about the grim 'n gritty Tim Drake he created for that book's final issues. It was awful. I don't want him anywhere near any character I like.

That's the shape of the team. You can add or subtract agents as you go, but there's always Oracle in the middle. I don't think it makes sense to design a book around an all-seeing Oracle directing her agents from the shadows, when anyone as capable as Black Canary or Huntress could just as easily hire Dylan Battles or such a character to build an Oracle app for their iPhone. Who needs to have Oracle yammering about how miserable her life is, when these days you can just check some bad guy's Facebook page to know where he is.

Yeah, because that's exactly how it works. "Gonna go rob a bank. Better change my status update." It's not like Oracle regularly commandeered military satellites to do her bidding or anything. What's the app for that by the way?

batGRRRl4ever

09-29-2009, 12:25 PM

Because it's an outmoded concept. BoP was born of a time when Internet access was rare, highly technical, and definitely not portable. Ten years later (gosh, I feel old), the rules have changed. Any book that wanted to be the "spiritual successor" of BoP would need to look more like Global Frquency but even more forward looking than that.

BoP as we know it, though, has gone the way of the CD-ROM. I would hate to see any characters forced into such an anachronistic comic book.

I totally agree in that to see Babs in front of multiple home monitors is really outdated techno-wise now. The next evolution is for her to regain her mobility and have a palm-pilot or blackberry type device while out in the field to gain intel in real time while she works with Black Canary and Huntress.

Static-Pulse

09-29-2009, 12:34 PM

Yeah, because that's exactly how it works. "Gonna go rob a bank. Better change my status update."

Which issue had them stopping a bank robbery? More often than not, before...ugh, back when Dixon was writing, they typically went after heads of state, business people, etc. These days, you don't need to be Oracle to tele-spy on them. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197562/MI6-chief-blows-cover-wifes-Facebook-account-reveals-family-holidays-showbiz-friends-links-David-Irving.html)

It's not like Oracle regularly commandeered military satellites to do her bidding or anything. What's the app for that by the way?

Google Maps.

Static-Pulse

09-29-2009, 12:37 PM

I totally agree in that to see Babs in front of multiple home monitors is really outdated techno-wise now. The next evolution is for her to regain her mobility and have a palm-pilot or blackberry type device while out in the field to gain intel in real time while she works with Black Canary and Huntress.

It just depends. I mean Penelope Garcia (http://criminalmindswiki.wetpaint.com/page/Penelope+Garcia) sits behind a bank of monitors and she's not outdated. On the other hand, Alec Hardison (http://leverage-wiki.tnt.tv/page/Alec+Hardison) is often just as good on-site with his cellphone. Either way, neither are the center of the wheel.

invisiboy

09-29-2009, 12:37 PM

That's the shape of the team. You can add or subtract agents as you go, but there's always Oracle in the middle. I don't think it makes sense to design a book around an all-seeing Oracle directing her agents from the shadows, when anyone as capable as Black Canary or Huntress could just as easily hire Dylan Battles or such a character to build an Oracle app for their iPhone. Who needs to have Oracle yammering about how miserable her life is, when these days you can just check some bad guy's Facebook page to know where he is.

I believe the new Batgirl book is probably the best "return" of BoP as you'll get. It uses the idea of a two-person partnership, but it's not structured so that Stephanie is flying blind or not flying at all without Oracle to guide her.

In all your glibness, I agree with you. I find that the concept of Oracle has gotten rather played out. The character needs to evolve or just be done away with. If we have a useless wheelchairbound hero, that's worse than not having one at all. At least in my opinion. For example, I am gay and find Batwoman to be a disgrace of a gay character, so I won't support her. Just because a character is this or that on the diversity scale doesn't mean he or she should be printed in comics. Imagination, inspiration and brains need to be used as well -- and that clearly hasn't happened for Oracle is quite some time.

invisiboy

09-29-2009, 12:39 PM

Ladies? How about the grim 'n gritty Tim Drake he created for that book's final issues. It was awful. I don't want him anywhere near any character I like.

Yeah, because that's exactly how it works. "Gonna go rob a bank. Better change my status update." It's not like Oracle regularly commandeered military satellites to do her bidding or anything. What's the app for that by the way?

Oracle has taken over satellites a few times, but when's the last time she did something like that? Eight, ten years? If DC and its writers don't care about her, why should we readers? DC has proved that it cares more about most other female characters -- including D-lister Stephanie Brown -- more than it cares about Oracle. It's not easy being a Babs fan these days. I spend time wishing DC would just put her out of her misery.

Alexx1

09-29-2009, 12:50 PM

I believe the new Batgirl book is probably the best "return" of BoP as you'll get. It uses the idea of a two-person partnership, but it's not structured so that Stephanie is flying blind or not flying at all without Oracle to guide her.

Part of the BOP charm was it was about mature, adult women in mature and adult situations. "Batgirl" is simply another book that readers will either latch onto or reject based on quality of story telling and readers ability to identitfy with the characters. IThis notion that Batgirl is a substitue for BOP is misguided or that BOP fans can find what they once had now in Batgirl is incorrect. Batgirl isn't BOP. It isn't even close to what BOP was or why it was enjoyable reading BOP. DC tried to sell it that way only to get readers to try it but even they have to know the books aren't a like. Just because Oracle is in Batgirl doesn't make it a BOP book. There are a lot of books with two-person partnership or buddy books. It takes more than that to make a book timely and BOP had that element and a lot more going for it.

myme

09-29-2009, 12:57 PM

invisiboy

09-29-2009, 12:58 PM

Part of the BOP charm was it was about mature, adult women in mature and adult situations. "Batgirl" is simply another book that readers will either latch onto or reject based on quality of story telling and readers ability to identitfy with the characters. IThis notion that Batgirl is a substitue for BOP is misguided or that BOP fans can find what they once had now in Batgirl is incorrect. Batgirl isn't BOP. It isn't even close to what BOP was or why it was enjoyable reading BOP. DC tried to sell it that way only to get readers to try it but even they have to know the books aren't a like. Just because Oracle is in Batgirl doesn't make it a BOP book. There are a lot of books with two-person partnership or buddy books. It takes more than that to make a book timely and BOP had that element and a lot more going for it.

Back when DC announced that the Birds of Prey would be in Batgirl, they had planned for Babs to be Batgirl. That was scrapped, obviously, so what we have so far in Batgirl is Babs in Oracle mode with Steph a reluctant "bird". Terrible, terrible. The entire setup relegates Oracle to the role of a mentor for the new Batgirl (again), which is a step down from being Batgirl herself. It's as if DC's trying to tick off Babs fans. I say, put Oracle is the JLA satellite where her talents can be put to the best use. Having her play second fiddle to Steph is an insult.

WorstThingUS

09-29-2009, 01:07 PM

Which issue had them stopping a bank robbery? More often than not, before...ugh, back when Dixon was writing, they typically went after heads of state, business people, etc. These days, you don't need to be Oracle to tele-spy on them. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197562/MI6-chief-blows-cover-wifes-Facebook-account-reveals-family-holidays-showbiz-friends-links-David-Irving.html)

Yes, because Luthor, Grodd, etc are this stupid.

And Dixon was great. He made this book then Gail came along and made it something more.

Maps.

I guess that's why it's so easy to find terrorists in the mountains of Pakistan. Someone call the DOD and let them the job is done.

As tech has changed so must Oracle change to be seen as cutting age. Something not helped by that godawful mini where she'd never even heard of Second Life. There's still plenty you cannot do in the palm of your hand, especially when your hands are full kicking someone's ass or you're undercover.

Doc Goblin

09-29-2009, 01:17 PM

I'd love for Birds of Prey to return... but I don't want it to suck. I don't really mean any offense to Bedard, but I did not find his follow-up run to Simone to be anything more than mediocre. Hey, if Greg Rucka wants to take a crack at it, then hell yeah. But I'd hate to see a book I liked so much at one point be relaunched with mediocre quality only to be deservingly canned. I just had to watch that happen with Exiles. I'd prefer not to go through it again. So bringing it back for the sake of bringing it back? No. But if there's an awesome creative team wanting to do it? Yes.

I don't consider Batgirl to be a replacement for Birds of Prey, but that's not to say the book doesn't have my interest right now. If it's written well, I think it will make for a good new chapter in Babs' life, tutoring Steph to be a better Batgirl. It makes sense for Oracle to be more of a Bat-character again for awhile. The post-BftC Bat-crew could use the support.

It's not Oracle who has suffered most from Birds of Prey going away. She came out the best. Black Canary got it the worst. Editorial grabbed her for Justice League of America and have pretty much framed her as the worst chairperson ever.

invisiboy

09-29-2009, 01:23 PM

It's not Oracle who has suffered most from Birds of Prey going away. She came out the best. Black Canary got it the worst. Editorial grabbed her for Justice League of America and have pretty much framed her as the worst chairperson ever.

There's no disagreeing with your point about Black Canary. I grabbed a few issues of the GA/BC comic and hated how she was portrayed. It's almost as if all the development under Dixon and Simone was washed away, like she went from a thoroughly capable, smart heroine back to being a super-bimbo. Hopefully DC will reunite Babs and Dinah, even if it's only in a mini. Well-written, of course. :biggrin:

cdemink

09-29-2009, 01:29 PM

Do "fans" want Birds of Prey to return?

Probably.

Comic book fans are renowned for their constant longing to regress backwards and revert the present to the former status quo.

But would it be a good idea? Who knows.

Static-Pulse

09-29-2009, 01:34 PM

Part of the BOP charm was it was about mature, adult women in mature and adult situations.

Because nothing says mature like abandoning a teenager so you can go on vacation. Nothing says mature like lying and tricking a coworker because you want to change their behavior. Nothing says mature like getting a private spy to stalk your best friend. Nothing says mature like...do I really need to go on? BoP stopped being mature a long time ago. I'm not saying, character-wise, Batgirl is any better, but the team dynamic is more along what I think a "new Birds of Prey" would be like.

Yes, because Luthor, Grodd, etc are this stupid.

In the past, they haven't had any problems writing letters to announce their plans or hijacking broadcast signals, I don't see why they wouldn't make use of the Internet to do the same. Even if you want to dismiss the notion of them Twittering a crime entirely (which, for the record, is sarcasm), then what about their goons? Whose to say they don't forget the importance of secrecy and post stuff to Facebook or Flickr; a picture of someone standing in front of a death ray might seem innocuous, but if someone tagged the picture, which caused it to trip an alarm, which alerted Black Canary, who knew where the henchman lived, she could very well stop a Luthor plan because one of his goons thought there was no harm in updating his image gallery.

Seriously, dude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_network#Social_network_analysis

I guess that's why it's so easy to find terrorists in the mountains of Pakistan. Someone call the DOD and let them the job is done.

Because having billions of dollars of satellites and intelligence gathering systems has really helped us pin down Osama and roust all those terrorists out of Iraq?

There's still plenty you cannot do in the palm of your hand, especially when your hands are full kicking someone's ass or you're undercover.

And it's nearly impossible to consult with Oracle when you've been chained up in a Tesla cage and have a sound-dampening collar locked around your throat keeping you from being able to talk. What's your point?

invisiboy

09-29-2009, 01:41 PM

myme

09-29-2009, 01:47 PM

"Regress backwards"? How does one regress forward?That reminds of the saying: "In former times everything was better, in particular the future."

cdemink

09-29-2009, 01:49 PM

"Regress backwards"? How does one regress forward?

If anyone could do it, comic book fans and their nagging Peter Pan complexes would find some way to do it.

invisiboy

09-29-2009, 01:50 PM

If anyone could do it, comic book fans and their nagging Peter Pan complexes would find some way to do it.

Are you not one of us?

WorstThingUS

09-29-2009, 02:21 PM

In the past, they haven't had any problems writing letters to announce their plans or hijacking broadcast signals, I don't see why they wouldn't make use of the Internet to do the same. Even if you want to dismiss the notion of them Twittering a crime entirely (which, for the record, is sarcasm), then what about their goons? Whose to say they don't forget the importance of secrecy and post stuff to Facebook or Flickr; a picture of someone standing in front of a death ray might seem innocuous, but if someone tagged the picture, which caused it to trip an alarm, which alerted Black Canary, who knew where the henchman lived, she could very well stop a Luthor plan because one of his goons thought there was no harm in updating his image gallery.

That's gotta be more of your sarcasm because it's beyond stupid for that to be a reason Oracle isn't needed.

Seriously, dude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_network#Social_network_analysis

Seriously, dude: anyone can write anything on wikipedia. Citing it rather than an actual source doesn't help your credibility.

Because having billions of dollars of satellites and intelligence gathering systems has really helped us pin down Osama and roust all those terrorists out of Iraq?

Well, according to you then they should save a dollar and used an iPhone with google maps.

And it's nearly impossible to consult with Oracle when you've been chained up in a Tesla cage and have a sound-dampening collar locked around your throat keeping you from being able to talk. What's your point?

Because there's a near godlike hacker who knows you've been taken prisoner and can either get into the system and shut it down or can direct any number of superheroes to get you out.

Flash's Lightning

09-29-2009, 02:38 PM

Are you not one of us?

He's not one of us! Get him!

(Why am I reminded of Puppet Masters?)

Static-Pulse

09-29-2009, 02:56 PM

That's gotta be more of your sarcasm because it's beyond stupid for that to be a reason Oracle isn't needed.

Seriously, dude: anyone can write anything on wikipedia. Citing it rather than an actual source doesn't help your credibility.

Yes, and anyone can refute a Wikipedia link by citing its openness, but I like arguing how outmoded and useless Oracle is, so I don't mind finding a few more links to prove my point. Privacy is Dead - Get Over It (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-383709537384528624) is a great video on the state of social network analysis, as well as just how much info is out there to be tapped. Here's an article from 2006 (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/10/71948) about how a Perl script that trawled through MySpace was able to find sex offenders, which is on account of how much info they posted online.

Now keep those in mind as I seamlessly move into my next point.

Well, according to you then they should save a dollar and used an iPhone with google maps.

What I said was, Black Canary or Huntress could hire someone like Dylan Battles to construct an Oracle app for their iPhone. What you have to consider, though, is everything that would go into an Oracle app:

1. You'd need a bank of servers to crawl the web for information, servers to store the data, servers to index the data, and servers to serve the data;

2. People who could fill in the blanks, associates and allies who would tag locations on a map, identify people in a photograph, etc.;

3. An interface (the actual app) that displayed the collected information.

Back when BoP was started, we didn't have Wikipedia, Google Maps, MySpace, Flickr, Google News, Twitter, Amazon Turk, and a whole host of other services that could replace a large part of what Oracle used to do. The idea of some godlike hacker building a super-database was a phenomenal feat back in the 90's; now, will all the web services that exist, it's still a non-trivial job, but it's more believable that a second-tier engineer could build a custom setup for a hero.

By the way, I'm choosing to ignore that A.I. technology is a dime-a-dozen in the DCU.

Because there's a near godlike hacker who knows you've been taken prisoner and can either get into the system and shut it down or can direct any number of superheroes to get you out.

Because Oracle did a bang-up job locating Black Canary when Savant kidnapped her, all she needed was to have someone turn Canary's tracer back on. She was right on the ball locating Ted Kord and Cassandra Cain when they vanished. She was completely aware when Zinda and Huntress went after the Shark. The Oracle app could easily keep tabs on the user's whereabouts, ping the phone every so ofter to make sure it was working, have a built in emergency call, etc.

Alexx1

09-29-2009, 03:18 PM

Because nothing says mature like abandoning a teenager so you can go on vacation. Nothing says mature like lying and tricking a coworker because you want to change their behavior. Nothing says mature like getting a private spy to stalk your best friend. Nothing says mature like...do I really need to go on? BoP stopped being mature a long time ago. I'm not saying, character-wise, Batgirl is any better, but the team dynamic is more along what I think a "new Birds of Prey" would be like.
?

That's so not enlightening. You've only stated the obvious while negelecting to keep all this in the context we have been talking about it or my statement. We (in this thread) were discussing BOP pre Gail and during Gail Simone's run. Everyone in this thread has said the tone of the book changed once she left (including myself) so what you just said isn't schooling anyone. The book changed after Gail left. We are talking about taking it back to its roots and YES BOP was about mature/adult wome in mature and adult situatons and that was what a lot of readers connected to and missed once the book went in another direction. It was one of the big draws to the book!

I can't change what you think a "new BOP" is or if it's aligns with Batgirl. Your statement leads me to believe you came on board BOP very late or not at all. I don't think anyone who came on BOP from the beginning (Dixon' run) and through Gail would come to the conclusion Batgirl is the new BOP except or maybe you. I can buy that any long term fan whose invested time into BOP, and understands it to it's core would agree.

Also Babs has nothing in common with teenagers other than they fight crime. They aren't her support system. They aren't even her friends. They are CHILDREN. So to you Babs/Steph is the new Babs/BC? Come on.

None of this is to say Batgirl isn't a good book or won't be a decent book but it's not BOP and it never will be. But if it is for you, what can I say? There's no point to go back and forth because we don't even have a foundation to agree on. You think Batgirl is a new BOP? We couldn't have been reading the same books!

carabas

09-29-2009, 03:20 PM

Who needs to have Oracle yammering about how miserable her life is, when these days you can just check some bad guy's Facebook page to know where he is.Well, that really is a recently aquired trait, because DC was going to do away with the whole Oracle thing and make her Batgirl again, before they changed their minds at the very last minute.
She didn't really used to yammer about her miserabl life before.

Static-Pulse

09-29-2009, 03:33 PM

Your statement leads me to believe you came on board BOP very late or not at all.

I've been an on-and-off reader since Black Canary got sent back in time, finally had a chance to read the entire BoP up to #65 back in 2004 (along with Nightwing and Batgirl), I read the book every month from then until I got fed up at #79, and since then I've kept up through news, Scans Daily, and the Oracle mini-series. Is that "on board" enough for you?

Also Babs has nothing in common with teenagers other than they fight crime. They aren't her support system. They aren't even her friends. They are CHILDREN. So to you Babs/Steph is the new Babs/BC? Come on.

First off, if you don't think teenagers are Babs' support system, I suggest you re-read No Man's Land. Then I suggest you consider the proposition you're making that neither Cassandra Cain nor Tim Drake are Barbara's friends.

That said, I don't think it's fair to say Barbara and Stephanie's relationship is exactly the same as Barbara and Dinah's. I do however think it's fair to say that much like the beginning of Barbara and Dinah's relationship, when it was more partnership than friendship, Barbara and Stephanie are each in places where they could use the help of an ally. That's my point. It's not that Babs/Steph is Babs/Dinah 2.0, it's that Babs/Steph is a different permutation for this decade; much like Grunge music isn't Bubblegum Pop music, but they're both what appeal to people at a certain period in time.

I don't think I ever said it was BoP, I just said it was likely the closest thing you could find to BoP.

mgs

09-29-2009, 08:13 PM

Birds of Prey, no matter the cast, should always be in print. A continuous series. I have no idea why DC dropped it, but imo, it was a bad move. :frown:

MTL76

09-29-2009, 08:15 PM

The general consensus seems to be is, "I'd want it to return, but only if it was good." :redface: Which sums up how I feel. Every series that goes on long enough will have highs and lows, and the trick is to change things enough to keep things fresh while staying true to the heart of the series. Without the team of Barbara and Dinah, it just wouldn't feel like BoP.

shanejayell

09-29-2009, 08:26 PM

WorstThingUS

09-29-2009, 08:56 PM

I'd love to see a relaunched series, but possibly not Birds of Prey.

'Oracle and the Network' might make a better series since it would get her away from the rather poor final run of Birds. Plus, it might bring in new readers.

How exactly? Every book has a bad run, but you don't need to retitle it in order to move forward. If that were the case both Superman and Batman would have been renamed multiple times over the decades. Not to mention, Birds of Prey is a very well known phrase synonymous with power and grace, whereas Oracle and The Network sounds like something your IT guy has to deal with. And have we forgotten the Oracle mini-series made even the worst issue of BOP look like All Star Superman? By your own logic, why would you associate a new title with that?

pariah-1972

09-29-2009, 11:47 PM

I will admit the B.o.p tapered off a bit at the end but that's no reason to do away with a successful long running series unless of course your name is Dan Didio the it's ok.

carabas

09-30-2009, 01:01 AM

I will admit the B.o.p tapered off a bit at the end but that's no reason to do away with a successful long running series unless of course your name is Dan Didio the it's ok.Their (canceled) plans to have Babs star in her own new Batgirl ongoing would be a good reason though if they thought it would sell more books. BoP was hemorraging readers.

beetlebum

09-30-2009, 03:11 AM

Alexx1

09-30-2009, 05:10 AM

First off, if you don't think teenagers are Babs' support system, I suggest you re-read No Man's Land. Then I suggest you consider the proposition you're making that neither Cassandra Cain nor Tim Drake are Barbara's friends. .

Oh I've read that and more. They aren't 'friends". Babs is maternal with Cass, with Tim, with Misfit, but I dare argue they are FRIENDS in the truest/deepest sense of the word. Yes they laugh together. Yes they might pass a joke or two between them. But hey I do that with co-workers and I wouldn't consider most of them friends. Yes parentes can be friends with their children but it's a loose friendship that doesn't interfere with being a parent. If "parents" are "friends" at the expense of "parenthood", they aren't very good parents. Before I am anything to my kids, I am parent first and foremost.

When Babs is having troubles with Dick, she's not calling or confiding in Cass, Steph, Misfit. When she was "near death" they weren't the ones there for her. When she recovered. When her moods change, they aren't the ones who notice it. When she's in trouble, they arent' the ones there for her. When she needs a ear. When she needs her space to think and regroup they aren't the ones to recognize that and give it too her without judging. When you're there for one another after the "job's" done. When's she's ever needed any of those things, it has been Dinah, Helena, and Zinda there for her. That's what make you a support system. That's what makes you a friend.

That said, I don't think it's fair to say Barbara and Stephanie's relationship is exactly the same as Barbara and Dinah's. I do however think it's fair to say that much like the beginning of Barbara and Dinah's relationship, when it was more partnership than friendship, Barbara and Stephanie are each in places where they could use the help of an ally. That's my point. It's not that Babs/Steph is Babs/Dinah 2.0, it's that Babs/Steph is a different permutation for this decade; much like Grunge music isn't Bubblegum Pop music, but they're both what appeal to people at a certain period in time.

I don't think I ever said it was BoP, I just said it was likely the closest thing you could find to BoP.

Oh don't worry I'm saying they are the same. In fact I'm saying they never will be Babs and Dinah. You seem to suggest throughout this thread that they are easily a substitute and I want to know how. Just like I'm saying at the core of what BOP was, Batgirl will never be. It's an entirely different book with an entirely different makeup.

We just have to agreee to disagree and be done with it.

Alexx1

09-30-2009, 05:17 AM

I'm tired, so I'm not going to type out a long dissertation and expatiate how I feel.

Still, there are a few things I want to say:

1.) I want them back too. I don't know if Gail can handle writing three titles a month, but if she's not back on the book, then put another quality writer on the title (names escape me at the moment.)

2.) I hated the move to Platinum Flats, too. To me, it was reminiscent of how Nip/Tuck moved McNamara and Troy from Miami to L.A. The only difference was -- while N/T was successful, mainly due to meta-commentary and how the show took the piss out of itself and its competitors -- the move to Platinum Flats felt like trying to push a square peg into a square hole. And that's another thing that was missing; the witty banter. I just wasn't feeling it. My fav issue out of the later run is where Zinda has her wake for Barda, as it was the only outstanding moment for me.

3.) This thread reinforces why Alexx1 is one of my fav posters on this website.

Maybe I'll post other stuff later, but that's all I have to say for now.

1. I don't know if she can handle it either but that's why I suggest gettng a co-writer to write it with her. It seems that's what DC is doing a bunch these days and I bet it because of time managmen as well.

2. That was a good Zinda story. BOP has had glimpses of good moments since Gail left. They've just been few and far between. DC really seemed to loose it's way with the book and it cost the book dearly. I've always thought if it ain't broke don't try and fix it! Be don't be the one to break it! That's what DC did.

3. Your sweet! We're just both very protective of Helena and realize what an awesome chick she is!

Gald to see you posting!

Spiffy

09-30-2009, 05:50 AM

Do fans want "Birds of Prey" to return?

I'd say the most fair statement would be something like "fans of Birds of Prey do", whereas general comics fans who don't give a rat's ass about Birds wouldn't care.

As for me? For all that I loved Gail's work on it, I don't want her back on it. Why? Because I'm enjoying her current work on WW and SS too much to sacrifice quality on it. If we need more from Gail than those two books, perhaps DC could give her a limited miniseries or some guest spots on prestige titles (not that I want her consigned to ordinary "fill-in" issues at this stage of her career, but if it was on Detective or Action? Sure.)

There are plenty of writers who'd screw up Birds in a big way. But there are at least four or five people I can think of who'd ace it. Give 'em a chance.

invisiboy

09-30-2009, 07:34 AM

If DC doesn't bring Birds of Prey back, I'd really, really like them to develop another all-female team. Grated, "Gotham Sirens" stars a cast of females, but they are villains and one anti-hero. (Also, from what people have said here on the messsage boards, I gather that title isn't very good.)

Static-Pulse

09-30-2009, 09:12 AM

You seem to suggest throughout this thread that they are easily a substitute and I want to know how.

Again, my exact quote (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=9714418&postcount=45):

I believe the new Batgirl book is probably the best "return" of BoP as you'll get. It uses the idea of a two-person partnership, but it's not structured so that Stephanie is flying blind or not flying at all without Oracle to guide her.

How is the new Batgirl a substitute for BoP? Because BOP is no longer being published, so should someone find themselves with a desire to read about Oracle working with a blond-haired Gotham native as a partner, their options would be Batgirl or nothing. If you don't have Coke but you have Dr. Pepper, then your best substitute for Coke is Dr. Pepper. That fact that Dr. Pepper is visually similar to Coke (brown, sweet, fizzy liquid in a cylindrical can) is a plus, but it in no ways means Dr. Pepper is Coke. That's all I'm suggesting.

Sn4tcH

09-30-2009, 10:15 AM

I'd say the most fair statement would be something like "fans of Birds of Prey do", whereas general comics fans who don't give a rat's ass about Birds wouldn't care.

You could generalize that into anything though, but it's basically true.

WorstThingUS

09-30-2009, 10:38 AM

You could generalize that into anything though, but it's basically true.

Let's try, shall we?

Do Firestorm fans want Firestorm to return? Fans of Firestorm do, whereas general comics fans who don't give a rat's ass about Firestorm wouldn't care.

Do Blue Beetle fans want Blue Beetle to return? Fans of Blue Beetle do, whereas general comics fans who don't give a rat's ass about Blue Beetle wouldn't care.

Do Original Question fans want Original Question to return? Fans of Original Question do, whereas general comics fans who don't give a rat's ass about Original Question wouldn't care.

Do Eradicator fans want Eradicator to return? Fans of Eradicator do, whereas general comics fans who don't give a rat's ass about Eradicator wouldn't care.

Do Aquaman fans want Aquaman to return? Fans of Aquaman do, whereas general comics fans who don't give a rat's ass about Aquaman wouldn't care.

Yep, it works.

ryerye17

09-30-2009, 11:40 AM

Let's try, shall we?

Do Firestorm fans want Firestorm to return? Fans of Firestorm do, whereas general comics fans who don't give a rat's ass about Firestorm wouldn't care.

Do Blue Beetle fans want Blue Beetle to return? Fans of Blue Beetle do, whereas general comics fans who don't give a rat's ass about Blue Beetle wouldn't care.

Do Original Question fans want Original Question to return? Fans of Original Question do, whereas general comics fans who don't give a rat's ass about Original Question wouldn't care.

Do Eradicator fans want Eradicator to return? Fans of Eradicator do, whereas general comics fans who don't give a rat's ass about Eradicator wouldn't care.

Do Aquaman fans want Aquaman to return? Fans of Aquaman do, whereas general comics fans who don't give a rat's ass about Aquaman wouldn't care.

Yep, it works.

ooooh. This made my day.

invisiboy

09-30-2009, 11:47 AM

ooooh. This made my day.

Mine, too. Common sense and thought go a long way!

Mia

09-30-2009, 12:09 PM

pariah-1972

09-30-2009, 12:47 PM

Their (canceled) plans to have Babs star in her own new Batgirl ongoing would be a good reason though if they thought it would sell more books. BoP was hemorraging readers.Probably cause they wanted Gail back.

I don't think it was completely bad after Gail left but the tone changed drastically and it become a bit too campy and silly.

Mia

09-30-2009, 12:51 PM

the tone changed drastically and it become a bit too campy and silly.

When I saw the OP I thought of the main characters. I forgot about the other peripheral characters such as Misfit etc. So my answer would be no to the return of the book.

invisiboy

09-30-2009, 12:52 PM

Probably cause they wanted Gail back.

I don't think it was completely bad after Gail left but the tone changed drastically and it become a bit too campy and silly.

I read the entire run of BoP, and (IMHO) the worst the book got was right before Gail came aboard. It was pretty crappy for a while. But Gail saved it, for a while.

myme

09-30-2009, 01:03 PM

... (IMHO) the worst the book got was right before Gail came aboard.You mean the stories by Gilbert Hernandez?

pariah-1972

09-30-2009, 01:21 PM

I read the entire run of BoP, and (IMHO) the worst the book got was right before Gail came aboard. It was pretty crappy for a while. But Gail saved it, for a while.Well they were pretty bad.

The thing i like about Gail and Dixon's runs are there is a nice mix of humor and serious action.

invisiboy

09-30-2009, 01:34 PM

invisiboy

09-30-2009, 01:36 PM

Well they were pretty bad.

The thing I like about Gail and Dixon's runs are there is a nice mix of humor and serious action.

I enjoyed Dixon and Simone's respective runs on the book, and thoroughly.

WorstThingUS

09-30-2009, 01:55 PM

I don't usually keep track of the creators, unless they stand out, so I am not sure. But I recall some of the worst issues being published after Dixon and before Simone. I recall one particularly terrible issue (around issue 35 or 40, I think) with a bimbo-esque, dumb-looking Dinah and a giant snake-guy on the cover. That issue was terrible.

I will brook these slights against the fill-in period no longer! BOP #47-49 by Terry Moore and Amanda Conner were actually good with the BOP running up against President Luthor and Talia. Not on the level of Chuck or Gail but still good. The look on Barbara's face after kicking the crap out of a bunch of guys (alone and on the ground, you f**king haters who think she's lacking skills) is priceless:

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8468/bw21.jpg

#50-52 was a fair story involving Metamorpho and his family by Gilbert Hernandez and Casey Jones and #53 - 55 by the same team was a fairly listless tale about a crazy supervillain assistant whose brother just happened to be dating Oracle. Yeah, it's about as exciting as it sounds. But I do recommend everyone giving the Moore/Conner books another shot. God forbid we ever get pre-Gail BOP in trade. Maybe if they did we'd get an account of the support for the book if not just a particular writer.

And that snake cover was from the "Last Laugh" crossover event so you can't really blame them for that.

myme

09-30-2009, 01:56 PM

myme

09-30-2009, 02:02 PM

BOP #47-49 by Terry Moore and Amanda Conner were actually good with the BOP running up against President Luthor and Talia. Not on the level of Chuck or Gail but still good.Yes, the three-parter "The Chaotic Code" was quite good. Babs had her short moment out of the wheelchair.

Spiffy

09-30-2009, 02:04 PM

You could generalize that into anything though, but it's basically true.
Sure, but it logic which only applies to niche comics, that's the point. People who aren't especially in the Bat still would likely answer standard polling about "should there be a Batman comic" in the positive, just because he's the Bat. It won't work like that with a comic without momentum or mass popular appeal, like "Birds".

I suppose I was also minorly tweaking the OP a bit too. I mean "you are a fan, do you want your comic back" DOES seem like a fairly obvious question, unless you add the spin that he or she might be talking about "fandom" in general. And if you do? The discussion just turns into a "do you like Birds of Prey" referendum.

WorstThingUS

09-30-2009, 02:05 PM

Yes, the three-parter "The Chaotic Code" was quite good. Babs had her short moment out of the wheelchair.

Damn skippy!

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8441/bw6y.jpg

Alexx1

09-30-2009, 02:49 PM

^^^It's always great to see Babs smiling, free, and content! Boy how things have drasticly changed!

Static-Pulse

09-30-2009, 02:58 PM

God forbid we ever get pre-Gail BOP in trade.

Preaching to the choir, man. I actually had the first BoP trade, that covered the mini-series, and some how lost it. I don't even think you can get a copy of it any more, which just about kills me.

Brack360

09-30-2009, 03:07 PM

When BOP was canceled, it was very much a mercy killing. I loved BOP during Gail's run but was glad to see it go rather than continue with the current direction under Bedard. I would like to see a return to the original premise of a Barbara/Dinah pairing, possibly with Helena as well, going on global espionage missions all over the DCU. It would essentially go back to being an anything-can-happen book where you never which guest stars may pop up. I'd actually prefer throwing in Cassandra Cain as well, possibly using her instead of Helena so that the cast is not too huge.

My only major complaint about Gail's run was that she moved away from the core Barbara/Dinah partnership and made BOP a dumping ground for obscure female characters. I was also initially very opposed to Helena joining the team because even though I liked The Huntress, I thought it was out of character for both her and Barbara.

I wouldn't want to see a return to the revolving door membership, the Platinum Flats setting (or really any fixed setting instead of a mobile premise), the Oracle vs. Calculator storyline, Infinity, Gypsy, or a high school drama with Misfit and Black Alice.

myme

09-30-2009, 03:09 PM

Preaching to the choir, man. I actually had the first BoP trade, that covered the mini-series, and some how lost it. I don't even think you can get a copy of it any more, which just about kills me.That's bad. I came to BoP this spring. I had no problem to get the TPBs, but it was a little bit harder to find the not collected single issues #7-55. Btw, #91 isn't collected in any TPB too.

Static-Pulse

09-30-2009, 03:13 PM

That's bad. I came to BoP this spring. I had no problem to get the TPBs, but it was a little bit harder to find the not collected single issues #7-55. Btw, #91 isn't collected in any TPB too.

You've got the "Manhunt" trade? Where Canary, Huntress, and Catwoman go after a mind-reading con artist? Where did you get it? How much did you pay? Would you sell it to me? :-)

myme

09-30-2009, 03:29 PM

You've got the "Manhunt" trade? Where Canary, Huntress, and Catwoman go after a mind-reading con artist? Where did you get it? How much did you pay? Would you sell it to me? :-)Yes, Birds of Prey book 1. Maybe I had just luck, the online shop doesn't list it anymore. I paid 17.10 € for it and I don't give it away. :biggrin:

DarkKnghtJared

09-30-2009, 03:47 PM

I'd definately dig a new BOP series--hell, they could even do it as a co-feature for, say, Batgirl and it'd probably get even more attention.

Tori Pagac

09-30-2009, 03:51 PM

give me my orcale black cannary goodness and because huntress is awesome huntress and id glady buy:smile:

myme

09-30-2009, 03:56 PM

I'd definately dig a new BOP series--hell, they could even do it as a co-feature for, say, Batgirl and it'd probably get even more attention.Hm, Spoiler-Bat-Girl as a co-feature in BoP, would be ok. Even better, no co-feature in BoP, but more BoP pages.

Static-Pulse

09-30-2009, 04:08 PM

Yes, Birds of Prey book 1. Maybe I had just luck, the online shop doesn't list it anymore. I paid 17.10 € for it and I don't give it away. :biggrin:

*GLOWS ORANGE*

I am so jealous of you.

myme

09-30-2009, 04:23 PM

*GLOWS ORANGE*

I am so jealous of you.
I'm not sure, cos it's not clear from the description, but there you may have luck:

http://www.newkadia.com/?ipgss=552|1|TPB

Strange thing, it's not even listed at MyComicShop.com
(http://www.mycomicshop.com/search?q=birds+of+prey&pubid=&PubRng=&GrdRng=)

Raptor

09-30-2009, 04:25 PM

I want birds back too. Anything with Huntress in it.

Captain Jim

09-30-2009, 08:08 PM

I have no idea why DC dropped it, but imo, it was a bad move. :frown:

The sales sucked.

I'd love to see a relaunched series, but possibly not Birds of Prey.

'Oracle and the Network' might make a better series since it would get her away from the rather poor final run of Birds. Plus, it might bring in new readers.

Not a bad idea, IMO.

When BOP was canceled, it was very much a mercy killing. I loved BOP during Gail's run but was glad to see it go rather than continue with the current direction under Bedard.

While I understand why Tony gets dissed for those last several issues, I'm not sure it's an entirely fair criticism. He was operating under some pretty heavy-handed editorial mandates, which I think was the main problem. The several "fill-in" issues that Tony wrote immediately after Gail's departure were quite good, IMO.

Deathstroke

09-30-2009, 09:27 PM

I'd like the Birds of Prey series back.

It was consistently one of my favorite reads each month.

Alexx1

10-01-2009, 07:57 AM

While I understand why Tony gets dissed for those last several issues, I'm not sure it's an entirely fair criticism. He was operating under some pretty heavy-handed editorial mandates, which I think was the main problem. The several "fill-in" issues that Tony wrote immediately after Gail's departure were quite good, IMO.

I remember reading Tony interviews when he was taking over BOP and thought to myself boy he sure has a lot of interesting things "planned" for the BIRDS and I was looking very much forward to it and thinking this is exactly what the books needs. Looking back at those interviews and seeing what was actually written, I'm convinced Tony was operating under heavy-handed editorial mandates. I don't think for a second he got to tell the stories he wanted to tell and the stories he was made to tell, I swear NO writer could have made them interesting.

While I would have preferred that book have been given to Tony outright when Gail first left and he went right into building a story arc, I also enjoyed his one-shots, especially the Huntress one and the Lady Blackhawk one!

invisiboy

10-01-2009, 08:11 AM

I will brook these slights against the fill-in period no longer! BOP #47-49 by Terry Moore and Amanda Conner were actually good with the BOP running up against President Luthor and Talia. Not on the level of Chuck or Gail but still good. The look on Barbara's face after kicking the crap out of a bunch of guys (alone and on the ground, you f**king haters who think she's lacking skills) is priceless.

I remember especially enjoying that issue in which Babs was temporariily cured and actually rose from the chair and kicked some majot butt. It was short-lived but glorious to see.

As for Babs lacking skills, I have been making my way through the entire run of the original "Batman Family" series, and she's amazing in the original stories. She's depicted (most of the time) as a brilliant detective, and Batman and Robin had a great deal of respect for her. It's a far cry from the way some haters seem to think she was a lame wanna-be superhero. Sure, that was true in the beginning, but she grew into one of the DCU's most famous and capable heroines. Also, the great Curt Swan penciled several of those "Batman family" Batgirl/Robin stories, and his Batgirl is gorgeous but looks like she'll kick your butt. Loving it.

Corrina

10-01-2009, 10:40 AM

*GLOWS ORANGE*

I am so jealous of you.

Manhunt really isn't Dixon's finest hour. The first BoP miniseries is excellent, as is most of his regular BoP run but that one....not so much.

invisiboy

10-01-2009, 11:23 AM

Manhunt really isn't Dixon's finest hour. The first BoP miniseries is excellent, as is most of his regular BoP run but that one....not so much.

Wasn't "Manhunt" the first BoP mini-series? I think only the first one-shot came out before that.

Static-Pulse

10-01-2009, 11:26 AM

Manhunt really isn't Dixon's finest hour. The first BoP miniseries is excellent, as is most of his regular BoP run but that one....not so much.

Maybe not, but the trade had both minis in it. I believe but don't quote me, the first trade was called "Birds of Prey: Manhunt," because both stories had the team going after guys who were well-known businessmen.

invisiboy

10-01-2009, 11:32 AM

Maybe not, but the trade had both minis in it. I believe but don't quote me, the first trade was called "Birds of Prey: Manhunt," because both stories had the team going after guys who were well-known businessmen.

Heck, I don't even remember another BoP mini-series at all. Unless we count the Batgirl/Catwoman/Oracle two-issue story. Does anyone know of any others?

myme

10-01-2009, 12:02 PM

Maybe not, but the trade had both minis in it. I believe but don't quote me, the first trade was called "Birds of Prey: Manhunt," because both stories had the team going after guys who were well-known businessmen.
The first TPB "Black Canary/Oracle: Birds of Prey" collects the first 7 publications:
Black Canary/Oracle: Birds of Prey #1 (1996): "One Man's Hell"
Birds of Prey: Revolution #1 (1997): "Birds of Prey: Revolution"
Showcase '96 #3 (March 1996): "Birds of a Feather"
Birds of Prey: Manhunt #1 (September 1996): "Where Revenge Delights"
Birds of Prey: Manhunt #2 (October 1996): "Girl Crazy"
Birds of Prey: Manhunt #3 (November 1996): "The Man That Got Away"
Birds of Prey: Manhunt #4 (December 1996): "Ladies' Night"

The second "Birds of Prey: Old Friends, New Enemies" collects:
Birds of Prey: Wolves #1 (October 1997): "Wolves"
Birds of Prey: Batgirl #1 (February 1998): "Birds of Prey"
Birds of Prey #1 (January 1999): "Long Time Gone"
Birds of Prey #2 (February 1999): "One of Those Days"
Birds of Prey #3 (March 1999): "Hounded"
Birds of Prey #4 (April 1999): "The Raven's Strike"
Birds of Prey #5 (May 1999): "Monster"
Birds of Prey #6 (June 1999): "Time's Rainbow"

(PS: IIRC only, don't have them at my hands now)

Static-Pulse

10-01-2009, 12:21 PM

The first TPB "Black Canary/Oracle: Birds of Prey" collects the first 7 publications:
Black Canary/Oracle: Birds of Prey #1 (1996): "One Man's Hell"
Birds of Prey: Revolution #1 (1997): "Birds of Prey: Revolution"
Showcase '96 #3 (March 1996): "Birds of a Feather"
Birds of Prey: Manhunt #1 (September 1996): "Where Revenge Delights"
Birds of Prey: Manhunt #2 (October 1996): "Girl Crazy"
Birds of Prey: Manhunt #3 (November 1996): "The Man That Got Away"
Birds of Prey: Manhunt #4 (December 1996): "Ladies' Night"

That's the one, so I was remembering the title wrong. Fudge me.

But, myme, you rock! I plugged that title into Amazon, and now have a slightly used copy headed my way for less than $20. Thank you!

WorstThingUS

10-01-2009, 12:24 PM

Manhunt really isn't Dixon's finest hour. The first BoP miniseries is excellent, as is most of his regular BoP run but that one....not so much.

Surely you're not referring to Black Canary and Catwoman giggling how they recognized the bad guy by his ass!?! Personally, I'd have begged them to change it before allowing something that stupid to every be reprinted.

mgs

10-01-2009, 08:22 PM

The sales sucked.

That's what I presumed, but still. I think the characters are 'core' enough that DC almost has an obligation to keep them in circulation. And for me, little appearances don't cut it.

Although they seem to be bringing some of them back more and more now. But I still saw the BoP book as the best vehicle to present the characters in a major way to the comic book audience.

ScottyQuick

10-03-2009, 09:35 PM

The sales sucked.

Well, no. It was still selling 20+k a month, it could and has done better, but that's more of a "hey let's relaunch this" then "hey let's drop this piece of shit" situation. It was canceled to make Babs Batgirl.

DetectiveDupin

10-03-2009, 09:43 PM

No. It was never that great of a title for me.

Mr Prince

10-04-2009, 12:42 AM

The great thing about BoP was the friendship and challenges between Oracle and Black Canary, and the fact that the book could go almost anywhere in the DCU and make sense. The globe trotting and mission impossible-ness really appealed to me.

The addition of Huntress added another character level that was interesting to explore in the Babs-Dinah-Helena dynamic. Some fun action and brilliant characterization and explortation–which I really enjoy in a book.

To me, BoP really is Babs and Dinah foremost, then Helena and Zinda. Personally, I'd like to see the regular operatives expanded to include Manhunter, Gypsy, Flamebird, Infinity and Onyx (I like bigger teams) and rotated as necessary for missions. And sometime it'd be interesting to see Batgirl, Batwoman and The Question show up.

Under a Simone, BoP was always a great, creative showcase for lesser known heroines. That's something I'd like to see continued even if only in supporting roles.

carabas

10-04-2009, 01:08 AM

Well, no. It was still selling 20+k a month, it could and has done better, but that's more of a "hey let's relaunch this" then "hey let's drop this piece of shit" situation. It was canceled to make Babs Batgirl.
Quoted for truth.
Given the heavy-handed editorial input Bedard had to deal with, and the 180 turn in Babs' characterisation, I think itis safe to say that BoP would have been canceled regardles of sales, be they good or bad.
Kinda like the Batgirl a few years ago.

Raharu

10-04-2009, 12:15 PM

I'll say yes, I enjoyed it, and would love to see it return

smoothjokes

10-04-2009, 03:12 PM

The New Birds of Prey should have been in the new Batgirl book.

Oracle
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain)
Spoiler
Misfit

That would've made way more sense.

batGRRRl4ever

10-04-2009, 04:03 PM

The New Birds of Prey should have been in the new Batgirl book.

Oracle
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain)
Spoiler
Misfit

That would've made way more sense.

For me it would be a little different:

Batgirl (The original and accept no substitutes Barbara Gordon)
Black Canary
Huntress

ScottyQuick

10-04-2009, 05:46 PM

The New Birds of Prey should have been in the new Batgirl book.

Oracle
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain)
Spoiler
Misfit

That would've made way more sense.

Batgrrrlz of Prey?

Batgirl (The original and accept no substitutes Barbara Gordon)

... you DO realize there was a Batgirl before her, right?

Captain Jim

10-04-2009, 08:00 PM

batGRRRl4ever

10-04-2009, 08:04 PM

Batgrrrlz of Prey?

... you DO realize there was a Batgirl before her, right?

Nope, on that you are 100% incorrect. Barbara Gordon was and is the first Batgirl. Who you are referring to is Bette Kane, the first and only Bat-Girl.

Captain Jim

10-04-2009, 08:25 PM

Oh, like that makes a big difference. :rolleyes:

Lorendiac

10-05-2009, 09:45 AM

Nope, on that you are 100% incorrect. Barbara Gordon was and is the first Batgirl. Who you are referring to is Bette Kane, the first and only Bat-Girl.

Oh, like that makes a big difference. :rolleyes:

Just to let you know, batGRRRl4ever -- I have made the exact same point on various occasions. You are not the only one who feels that "Bat-Girl" and "Batgirl" qualify as two different names which just happen to have remarkably similar pronunciation! :smile:

(By the same token, when I see one comic book character called "Knight" and another called "Night," I don't say they have the exact same name!)

The Xenos

10-05-2009, 05:57 PM

I really don't get why fans -still- don't accept Gordon as having moved on from her Batgirl days. I loved her under the cowl, yet I also love her in the role of Oracle.

And I'm not even touching this Batgirl vs Bat-Girl fiasco.
The New Birds of Prey should have been in the new Batgirl book.
Oracle
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain)
Spoiler
Misfit
That would've made way more sense.Yeah, this new Batgirl series is totally lacking. Birds of Prey would have been perfectly fine with Babs and that cast of young characters. Plus with appearances from Huntress and other BoP 'members'.

Birds of Prey may not have the same name recognition as Batgirl, but I thought DC was doing a damn good time of making a name for it. Well, that ignoring that awful TV show. Birds of Prey was an amazing book and a great title for DC to have. I think the Bat lineup and DC is sorely missing something due to its absence.

Flâneur

10-05-2009, 06:13 PM

Just to let you know, batGRRRl4ever -- I have made the exact same point on various occasions. You are not the only one who feels that "Bat-Girl" and "Batgirl" qualify as two different names which just happen to have remarkably similar pronunciation! :smile:

(By the same token, when I see one comic book character called "Knight" and another called "Night," I don't say they have the exact same name!)

A hyphen does not a homonym make. It's the same name.

invisiboy

10-06-2009, 08:34 AM

Oh, like that makes a big difference. :rolleyes:

When we're talking continuity, Babs was the first Batgirl, so it does make a big difference. As I'm sure you know, Betty Kane's Bat-Girl was retconned out of existence following COIE.

invisiboy

10-06-2009, 08:45 AM

I really don't get why fans -still- don't accept Gordon as having moved on from her Batgirl days. I loved her under the cowl, yet I also love her in the role of Oracle.

To some fans, like me, Babs is Batgirl. I am in my thirties, and she was a very well-known superhero when I was growing up. Not just in comics, but everywhere. Toys, halloween costumes, TV show, cartoons, etc. I had been reading comics for two or three years when Babs was shot, and I'd seen her on TV for years before that, so I remember loving her and having to watch her get tossed away by DC. And, yes, it still stings to see a formerly ultra-physical character struck down by a villain and kept there -- bad guy wins! -- while other heroes rise from their respective afflictions, heck some come back from the dead .

I like Babs as Oracle okay, but to me Oracle will probably always seem like a consolation prize. "Hey fans, you can't have Babs as Batgirl or Batwoman, but we'll wheel her up to a computer screen and make her a hero!" And, frankly, the more technology grows, the less important Oracle seems. DC hasn't really kept the character advancing along with technology within the DCU. If DC's gonna keep Oracle around, they need to revitalize her. Also, DC has spent so much time over the past year tearing Oracle's character a part that it'll take a lot of work to fix her.

invisiboy

10-06-2009, 08:49 AM

A hyphen does not a homonym make. It's the same name.

According to your logic, Nightwing and Nite-Wing are the same mantle. Somebody better tell Dick Grayson.

Bat-Girl was a sidekick to Batwoman. She was based on Batwoman.

Batgirl -- like Batwoman -- was a female version of Batman, and she was not his sidekick.

Like "Nightwing" and "Nite-Wing" they served different purposes.

Lorendiac

10-06-2009, 09:56 AM

A hyphen does not a homonym make.

It doesn't? Why not? How do you know?

It doesn't help that when I looked up "homonym" at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homonym, I found multiple definitions! One of them relates to words that are spelled the same and pronounced the same, but carry different meanings anyway!

Permit me to point out that recreation and re-creation are spelled with the same ten letters in the same sequence, but they are not the same word and don't carry the same meaning. The hyphen makes a difference! :smile:

invisiboy

10-06-2009, 11:01 AM

It doesn't? Why not? How do you know?

It doesn't help that when I looked up "homonym" at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homonym, I found multiple definitions! One of them relates to words that are spelled the same and pronounced the same, but carry different meanings anyway!

Permit me to point out that recreation and re-creation are spelled with the same ten letters in the same sequence, but they are not the same word and don't carry the same meaning. The hyphen makes a difference! :smile:

Maybe he/she meant to say "homophone" instead of "homonym"?

RonnieThunderbolts

10-06-2009, 01:15 PM

Permit me to point out that recreation and re-creation are spelled with the same ten letters in the same sequence, but they are not the same word and don't carry the same meaning. The hyphen makes a difference! :smile:

The way I see it, your example falls apart as you discuss it. The hyphen makes a difference when it changes the word beyond spelling (in the case of re-creation and recreation it changes pronunciation and meaning), while in the case of Batgirl and Bat-Girl it changes neither meaning or pronunciation. A better example would be birth-day vs. birthday. In old Biblical texts it is written "birth-day" with a hyphen, but it is pronounced and means the same as the currently used "birthday." Honour and honor, color and colour aren't different words, they are different spellings/forms of the same word, like Batgirl and Bat-Girl.

invisiboy

10-06-2009, 01:25 PM

The way I see it, your example falls apart as you discuss it. The hyphen makes a difference when it changes the word beyond spelling (in the case of re-creation and recreation it changes pronunciation and meaning), while in the case of Batgirl and Bat-Girl it changes neither meaning or pronunciation. A better example would be birth-day vs. birthday. In old Biblical texts it is written "birth-day" with a hyphen, but it is pronounced and means the same as the currently used "birthday." Honour and honor, color and colour aren't different words, they are different spellings/forms of the same word, like Batgirl and Bat-Girl.

We can all agree that Bat-Girl appeared before Batgirl, just like Super-Girl appeared before Supergirl. That doesn't make Bat-Girl (or Super-Girl) any more relevent, and it does not change the fact that Bat-Girl was obliterated rom DC's continuity. There are a few ways to look at our semantical argument, and none of them makes Bat-Girl remotely important in today's comics.

Furthermore, Bat-Girl dressed up like Batwoman and wore a red-and-green Christmas elf suit. Why are people even bothering to recall this nothing of a character?

RonnieThunderbolts

10-06-2009, 01:52 PM

We can all agree that Bat-Girl appeared before Batgirl, just like Super-Girl appeared before Supergirl. That doesn't make Bat-Girl (or Super-Girl) any more relevent, and it does not change the fact that Bat-Girl was obliterated rom DC's continuity. There are a few ways to look at our semantical argument, and none of them makes Bat-Girl remotely important in today's comics.

I can totally agree with that.

Furthermore, Bat-Girl dressed up like Batwoman and wore a red-and-green Christmas elf suit. Why are people even bothering to recall this nothing of a character?

We are free to discuss old Pre-Crisis tales and characters here, this is a Batman board, and people are going to mention stuff that isn't in continuity any longer from time to time. I'd imagine for many of us it hasn't been a bother at all, I know it doesn't irritate me to think about Pre-Crisis and Golden Age material and characters.

The Xenos

10-06-2009, 03:58 PM

I grew up on the Adam West Batman (in reruns) and then Batman The Animated Series, both with their own fantastic versions of Barbra Gordon as Batgirl. The makers of the toon never wanted to turn Babs into Oracle. Though they did have the rest of the Birds show up in that Double Date ep written by Birds scribe Gail Simone.

Meanwhile, I also read No Mands Land and enoyed Cass Cain taking over the cowl. Plus seeing Babs make a formidible new persona as Oracle.

Kinda like how Dick Grayson became Nightwing, Babs has also moved onto a new name. Though Nightwing did appear in the animated series, I think that's another example.

It's like someone arguing that Dick Grayson should be Robin and not Tim Drake. I don't think I've heard people argue that. Why argue it for Batgirl? I don't get why people want to ignore current coninuity or retread things just for nostalgia.

It's not even like it never happened, most all those stories about Babs as Batgirl or Dick as robin are still true. (Well, that they were is still in continuity even if some old silver age stores aren't.) Batgirl Year One was a pretty damn good recent mini series going back to retell her origins.

myme

10-06-2009, 04:51 PM

It's like someone arguing that Dick Grayson should be Robin and not Tim Drake. I don't think I've heard people argue that. Why argue it for Batgirl? I don't get why people want to ignore current coninuity or retread things just for nostalgia.

The Barbara Gordon Batgirl in the comics pre COIE was basically Batwoman, but named Batgirl. She was introduced for the TV-Show in the 60s. As the show already featured a Catwoman, adding a Batwoman would have been way too confusing. So I guess that's why she was named Batgirl. Maybe read some of her early adventures, as collected in Showcase: Batgirl, and you'll see a mature and independent heroine solving her cases. That's why Babs-Batgirl fans have no real problem with Babs becoming Batgirl again, they associate her with a mature woman, not a teenage girl.

Robin becoming Nightwing was a natural evolution, he grew up from boy to man. Most Dick Grayson fans have no problem with this. But you can't compare it with Babs as she was introduced in the 60s.

carabas

10-06-2009, 05:00 PM

It's like someone arguing that Dick Grayson should be Robin and not Tim Drake. I don't think I've heard people argue that.Oh, they definitely exist. They're hilarious.

Captain Jim

10-06-2009, 07:35 PM

What's this thread about again? Oh yeah, do you want BOP to return.

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 11:08 AM

It's like someone arguing that Dick Grayson should be Robin and not Tim Drake. I don't think I've heard people argue that. Why argue it for Batgirl? I don't get why people want to ignore current coninuity or retread things just for nostalgia.

It's not even like it never happened, most all those stories about Babs as Batgirl or Dick as robin are still true. (Well, that they were is still in continuity even if some old silver age stores aren't.) Batgirl Year One was a pretty damn good recent mini series going back to retell her origins.

Dick "graduated" from being Robin to being Nightwing. It was his choice. His method of operation was essentially the same as when he was Robin, and his character was not tortured or maimed to make him into Nightwing. In fact, I wonder how fans would have reacted if Dick had been paralyzed and became an Oracle-type character while Babs went on to become Nightwing or Batwoman. There would certainly be more fervor against Dick's paralysis, as fandom seems to enjoy its dead Supergirls, mutilated Batgirls and raped Black Canaries but cannot keep Batman's back broken, or keep Superman or Green Arrow -- a mere human -- dead. (Read: sexism.)

The Batgirl/Oracle debate is quite different. DC mutilated the character with no intention of ever using her again. She was discarded. Writer John Ostrander took an abandoned Babs Gordon and, capitalizing on her computer skills, made her Oracle. (Babs was computer-savvy long before anyone even thought of Pracle.) See, on Dick's part, there was editorial forethought behind the process, whereas "Oracle" was not planned. There is a complete lack of equality with how these characters were treated, and that is why it is sexist. Some may believe Batgirl deserved no better treatment, because some see her as a ripoff character, but I saw great value in her.

And I, for one, believe Babs could have been an even greater character than Oracle if she hadn't been paralyzed. I know it isn't politically correct to say, but I believe her being in that chair limits her potential. Not in a "she's just a crippled girl" kind of way, but more like most writers -- as well as DC editors -- don't know what to do with her. Just look at her character right now: It's in the toilet.

If DC brings back Birds of Prey, I hope some great writer can fix all the harm that's been done to her.

Forth World

10-07-2009, 11:43 AM

It's rather surprising that people want Babs to stay crippled when Hal Jordan's return was so successful. Sales would be through the roof if they brought Babs back from the chair.

It's like someone arguing that Dick Grayson should be Robin and not Tim Drake.

Not really. Robin is kind of a lame character; Nightwing is not lamer and maybe a bit cooler. And Batman is much cooler. Dick Grayson has been promoted. By contrast, Barbara went from a first-rate supporting character to a second- or third-rate supporting character. Demotion. And she no longer gets to go out and kick ass.

There's a reason they don't bring Batgirl back, though. It has to do with dollars, not character development or diversity. Sure, comic sales would go through the roof if they brought Babs back.

But Birds of Prey is a potentially more lucrative media property than solo Batgirl. And if they decided otherwise, they can always bring her back in the future. Leaving her in the chair means they hold the option to license both properties.

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 11:52 AM

It's rather surprising that people want Babs to stay crippled when Hal Jordan's return was so successful. Sales would be through the roof if they brought Babs back from the chair.

Not really. Robin is kind of a lame character; Nightwing is not lamer and maybe a bit cooler. And Batman is much cooler. Dick Grayson has been promoted. By contrast, Barbara went from a first-rate supporting character to a second- or third-rate supporting character. Demotion. And she no longer gets to go out and kick ass.

There's a reason they don't bring Batgirl back, though. It has to do with dollars, not character development or diversity. Sure, comic sales would go through the roof if they brought Babs back.

But Birds of Prey is a potentially more lucrative media property than solo Batgirl. And if they decided otherwise, they can always bring her back in the future. Leaving her in the chair means they hold the option to license both properties.

Being resurrected isn't the same as losing paralysis. Secondly Barbara Gordon isn't a household name, people know Batgirl but they don't know who she actually is. Sales wouldn't be through the roof because there is a fair amount of people who do not want her to walk again, myself included. And Robin really isn't a lame character. 70 years of publication would disagree with you. Barbara's role as Oracle is unique in the DCU and should remain so. And last I checked, Batgirl hasn't gone anywhere. In fact, we've had two and are on our third.

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 11:52 AM

It's rather surprising that people want Babs to stay crippled when Hal Jordan's return was so successful. Sales would be through the roof if they brought Babs back from the chair.

Not really. Robin is kind of a lame character; Nightwing is not lamer and maybe a bit cooler. And Batman is much cooler. Dick Grayson has been promoted. By contrast, Barbara went from a first-rate supporting character to a second- or third-rate supporting character. Demotion. And she no longer gets to go out and kick ass.

There's a reason they don't bring Batgirl back, though. It has to do with dollars, not character development or diversity. Sure, comic sales would go through the roof if they brought Babs back.

I suspect not restoring Babs to Batgirl had less to do with money and more to do with editorial decisions. After all, Didio did state that they were revved up to make Babs Batgirl, and then changed their minds after it was decided "Oracle" was too important to the stories to do away with. (I guess DC can make as many Batgirls as they want, but limit themselves to only one Oracle. Huh?)

Also, the plan was to bring back Babs as Batgirl and also have her leading a "Birds of Prey" team in the Batgirl book. That didn't happen, obviously, and now there is no Birds of Prey, no Babs Batgirl -- only the shredded remains of what was the Birds of Prey.

Now's not a good time to be a Babs and BoP fan.

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 12:05 PM

Being resurrected isn't the same as losing paralysis. Secondly Barbara Gordon isn't a household name, people know Batgirl but they don't know who she actually is. Sales wouldn't be through the roof because there is a fair amount of people who do not want her to walk again, myself included. And Robin really isn't a lame character. 70 years of publication would disagree with you. Barbara's role as Oracle is unique in the DCU and should remain so. And last I checked, Batgirl hasn't gone anywhere. In fact, we've had two and are on our third.

OMG, it's that same old "no one knows Batgirl's secret identity" excuse, as if it equals her bieng unimportant. It doesn't matter. Most everyday people can name maybe three superhero secret identities, and that does not diminish the importance of the existing characters -- especially one like Batgirl, who's been around for 43 years! To most people, Babs is the only Batgirl they know. She has red hair and is the commissioner's daughter.

Just because you like Babs crippled in a wheelchair doesn't mean the majority of readers does. And do you REALLY believe an "Oracle" comic would outsell a "Batgirl" one starring Babs? If so, please explain, because I just don't see it. Not at all. The Batgirl version is vastly more popular than Oracle. DC is the only company of all the ones that produce Babs merchandise who prefer Oracle to Batgirl. The only one. Mattel, DC Direct, etc. all use Batgirl.

Forth World

10-07-2009, 12:13 PM

Secondly Barbara Gordon isn't a household name, people know Batgirl but they don't know who she actually is.

Household name is relative. She's at least as household as Hal Jordan. 60's TV show Batman informs more people's idea than the last 20 years of comics continuity.

Sales wouldn't be through the roof because there is a fair amount of people who do not want her to walk again, myself included.

No way to know unless they do it. But I'd bet a large number of the ones passionate about Babs in a chair are pretty fanatical completists anyway.

But again, they marketed BOP as a TV show once, and they could do it again someday. Most of Smallville's audience is female and so is a good bit of DCAU's, so BOP with Oracle is good to have in the pocket even if they're not doing anything with it at the moment. Now, if the Catwoman movie had worked well, it'd be a different story; Babs would be back with a quickness and thence to the theaters.

Of course DiDio's going to explain this to the fans in terms of storylines and continuity. But from a comics sales perspective alone, it's nuts. From a diversified media perspective, it's smart.

Brack360

10-07-2009, 12:16 PM

Dick "graduated" from being Robin to being Nightwing. It was his choice. ...The Batgirl/Oracle debate is quite different.

Barbara already retired as Batgirl in the Batgirl Special before she was paralyzed. She voluntarily gave up the Batgirl identity and moved on with her life. Furthermore, Dick Grayson was fired as Robin against his will and was then forced to come up with his own identity, Nightwing. This is not an accurate comparison.

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:18 PM

OMG, it's that lame old "no one knows Batgirl's secret identity" excuse, as if it equals her bieng unimportant. It doesn't matter. Most everyday people can name maybe three superhero secret identities, and that does not diminish the importance of the existing characters -- especially one like Batgirl, who's been around for 43 years! To most people, Babs is the only Batgirl they know. She has red hair and is the commissioner's daughter.

Just because you like Babs crippled in a wheelchair doesn't mean the majority of readers does. And do you REALLY believe an "Oracle" comic would outsell a "Batgirl" one starring Babs? If so, please explain, because I just don't see it. Not at all. The Batgirl version is vastly more popular than Oracle. DC is the only company of all the ones that produce Babs merchandise who prefer Oracle to Batgirl. The only one. Mattel, DC Direct, etc. all use Batgirl.

Batgirl sales might see a spike in the first couple of issues, but they won't be anywhere near a title like Batman and Robin. Cass' s run had the the banner "Batgirl" and ultimately failed because the character wasn't as accessible as Barbara. That's why we have Stephanie Brown. In all actuality, Barbara is more important than she's ever been as Oracle. And even though I know most people tire of this excuse, she is much too old to ever go back to being called Batgirl.

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:22 PM

Household name is relative. She's at least as household as Hal Jordan. 60's TV show Batman informs more people's idea than the last 20 years of comics continuity.

No way to know unless they do it. But I'd bet a large number of the ones passionate about Babs in a chair are pretty fanatical completists anyway.

But again, they marketed BOP as a TV show once, and they could do it again someday. Most of Smallville's audience is female and so is a good bit of DCAU's, so BOP with Oracle is good to have in the pocket even if they're not doing anything with it at the moment. Now, if the Catwoman movie had worked well, it'd be a different story; Babs would be back with a quickness and thence to the theaters.

Of course DiDio's going to explain this to the fans in terms of storylines and continuity. But from a comics sales perspective alone, it's nuts. From a diversified media perspective, it's smart.

Bird's of Prey was canceled, wasn't it? And on comparing Hal to Babs, remember that the vast majority of comic book readers are male, so unfortunately the importance of female characters is not the same as male characters. I do not believe the success of the Catwoman movie would have had any effect on Barbara's status.

myme

10-07-2009, 12:22 PM

Barbara already retired as Batgirl in the Batgirl Special before she was paralyzed. She voluntarily gave up the Batgirl identity and moved on with her life. That was already retconned.

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:22 PM

Barbara already retired as Batgirl in the Batgirl Special before she was paralyzed. She voluntarily gave up the Batgirl identity and moved on with her life. Furthermore, Dick Grayson was fired as Robin against his will and was then forced to come up with his own identity, Nightwing. This is not an accurate comparison.

Most people forget that she voluntarily gave up the mantle of Batgirl.

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:23 PM

That was already retconned.

How was it retconned? Just asking so I know.

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 12:27 PM

How was it retconned? Just asking so I know.

DC retconned that Babs had at least two additional outings as Batgirl after she "retired". One story was detailed in Gotham Knights, in which Babs teamed up with the Jason Todd Robin. I recall another adventure but am drawing a blank on where it happened. Can anyone help me out? I believe it was fairly recent.

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 12:28 PM

Most people forget that she voluntarily gave up the mantle of Batgirl.

When Babs "gave it up" there was no mantle. She was the only Batgirl at that point.

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:29 PM

DC retconned that Babs had at least two additional outings as Batgirl after she "retired". One story was detailed in Gotham Knights, in which Babs teamed up with the Jason Todd Robin. I recall another adventure but am drawing a blank on where it happened. Can anyone help me out? I believe it was fairly recent.

But she was still retired then right? Isn't that the same as a retired boxer boxing again?

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 12:31 PM

In all actuality, Barbara is more important than she's ever been as Oracle. And even though I know most people tire of this excuse, she is much too old to ever go back to being called Batgirl.

Power Girl is about the same age as Babs, but she gets away with the "girl" portion of her codename. Just sayin'.

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:31 PM

When Babs "gave it up" there was no mantle. She was the only Batgirl at that point.

A lot of people refer to Batman as a mantle when Bruce has been the only Batman until very recently. Besides Knightfall, that is.

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 12:33 PM

But she was still retired then right? Isn't that the same as a retired boxer boxing again?

Semi-retired is the term people use ...

The fact remains that Babs did operate as Batgirl after "retiring". So whatever point was allegedly being made about her retirement somehow mattering is no longer valid.

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:33 PM

Power Girl is about the same age as Babs, but she gets away with the "girl" portion of her codename. Just sayin'.

Powergirl is also Kryptonian, and they age very slowly. Not that you wouldn't know that by some artists. And I have an issue with Kara being called Powergirl as well, haha.

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:35 PM

Semi-retired is the term people use ...

The fact remains that Babs did operate as Batgirl after "retiring". So whatever point was allegedly being made about her retirement somehow mattering is no longer valid.

Semi-retired still has the word "retired" in it. She operated for two missions, it's not like she was as active as before then.

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 12:38 PM

Powergirl is also Kryptonian, and they age very slowly. Not that you wouldn't know that by some artists. And I have an issue with Kara being called Powergirl as well, haha.

Yet the Power Girl comic still sells, despite the gap between the "girl" name and her being a full-grown woman.

As for Kryptonians aging more slowly, it apparently doesn't work on breasts -- her boobies are all woman.

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:40 PM

Yet the Power Girl comic still sells, despite the gap between the "girl" name and her being a full-grown woman.

As for Kryptonians aging more slowly, it apparently doesn't work on breasts -- her boobies are all woman.

I wasn't saying Babs can't sell, but it wouldn't be selling as good as Batman and Robin or any book like that. And on Kara, Kryptonian implants? lol

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 12:40 PM

Semi-retired still has the word "retired" in it. She operated for two missions, it's not like she was as active as before then.

I really don't get the point you are attempting to make. Can you please spell it out for me?

Are you implying that just because Babs had retired that she wouldn't have returned to crimefighting? If so, I find a flaw in your logic, because even getting her spine shot out didn't seem to stop her return.

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 12:42 PM

I wasn't saying Babs can't sell, but it wouldn't be selling as good as Batman and Robin or any book like that. And on Kara, Kryptonian implants? lol

Agreed. The only way a Batgirl could sell as well as Batman is if DC published a "Batman and Batgirl" title.

Batman's a juggernaut -- there's no competing with him.

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:46 PM

I really don't get the point you are attempting to make. Can you please spell it out for me?

Are you implying that just because Babs had retired that she wouldn't have returned to crimefighting? If so, I find a flaw in your logic, because getting her spine shot out didn't even seem to stop her return.

My point is that people act like she had the title stripped away from her. Like how are they so sure she would go back to being Batgirl? She gave it up. Maybe she prefers her role as Oracle. Has anyone ever considered that she regain the use of her legs and continue as Oracle?

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:46 PM

Agreed. The only way a Batgirl could sell as well as Batman is if DC published a "Batman and Batgirl" title.

Batman's a juggernaut -- there's no competing with him.

Someone apparently thinks "sales would be through the roof".

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 12:47 PM

Someone apparently thinks "sales would be through the roof".

Compared to other Batgirl sales, probably. But comparing Batgirl to Batman is quite unfair.

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:49 PM

Compared to other Batgirl sales, probably. But comparing Batgirl to Batman is quite unfair.

When I think of the term "through the roof" I imagine it would be very high selling, like Batman.

RonnieThunderbolts

10-07-2009, 12:53 PM

As Jim reminded us yesterday (myself included)

What's this thread about again? Oh yeah, do you want BOP to return.

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 12:54 PM

My point is that people act like she had the title stripped away from her. Like how are they so sure she would go back to being Batgirl? She gave it up. Maybe she prefers her role as Oracle. Has anyone ever considered that she regain the use of her legs and continue as Oracle?

I'd love for Babs to walk again and stay Oracle, but DC won't allow her to walk.

As for Babs having her Batgirl title stripped away -- well, she did. DC editors did it by having Joker shoot her. That's the ultimate reason DC had her "retire" was so she could be crippled without people complaining that she was still Batgirl and they shouldn't have done that. (Think it worked?)

By the way, Babs still sometimes refers to herself as Batgirl. For an example, check out Gail Simone's final issue of Birds of Prey -- it's in there. Also, Babs is currently very unhappy being confined to a wheelchair and was seen in the final issue of Birds of Prey dragging out an old Batgirl suit and staring forlornly at it. Does that sound like she's happier in a wheelchair?

invisiboy

10-07-2009, 12:58 PM

As Jim reminded us yesterday (myself included)

Are we never allowed to stray from the topic, even a little? Personally, I don't see the harm. We're talking about Babs, den mother of the Birds of Prey, so it seems on-topic to me.

By the way, I want birds of Prey to return. Is that on-topic enough now?

DetectiveDupin

10-07-2009, 12:59 PM

I'd love for Babs to walk again and stay Oracle, but DC won't allow her to walk.

As for Babs having her Batgirl title stripped away -- well, she did. DC editors did it by having Joker shoot her. That's the ultimate reason DC had her "retire" was so she could be crippled without people complaining that she was still Batgirl and they shouldn't have done that. (Think it worked?)

By the way, Babs still sometimes refers to herself as Batgirl. For an example, check out Gail Simone's final issue of Birds of Prey -- it's in there. Also, Babs is currently very unhappy being confined to a wheelchair and was seen in the final issue of Birds of Prey dragging out an old Batgirl suit and staring forlornly at it. Does tha sound like she's happier in a wheelchair?

You sir have won this discussion.

On topic, I change my answer to yes, I'd like it to return because there is a fan base for it.