Superman: For All Seasons vs. Secret Origin

[WorstThingUS]

Everything has its price and the cost of Secret Origin's return to a more Silver Age-orientation is that the great Jeph Loeb/Tim Sale mini For All Seasons is now gone. Was it worth it to you? Do you think they should have tried to incorporate it somehow or is the last page so awesome it banished from your mind?

[Vigilante Man]

I voted for Superman For All Seasons. It's a classic and beautiful story. It also fit well as a companion to Byrne's Man of Steel series. To tell you the truth even though I like Man of Steel and For All Seasons, I Love Birthright. Birthright is a great character analysis and the definitive origin for me. Waid is the man.

[Ian J.N.]

I don't think For All Seasons has aged well. I still love the art, but the story feels artificial somehow. It's hard to articulate.

[dupersuper]

I voted combo...no reason I can't enjoy both...and Man of Steel...even throw a little Birthright in...

[ryerye17]

I'm confused. I thought we hated Loeb.

[carabas]

I don't see how For All Seasons was so terribly important to continuity that it just had to be kept in. Nor do I see how it is gone now, since the books have not vanished. I kinda doubt DC is going to stop reprinting it as Loeb's stardom continues to rise.

[carabas]

I'm confused. I thought we hated Loeb.We hate Loeb, but we love Loeb+Sale.
Apparently Sale either manages to get good writing out of Loeb, or he just goes wildly off script and draws good stories instead of gore.

[Tra-EL]

For All Seasons and Birthrights were good reads, but for me, it lacked that definite Origin that should be portrayed as Superman. Yeah there were amazing parts and the story was well handled , but there was something missing for me in both books to the point where I couldn't go by those stories as a new origin. They were good, but didn't have the IT factor to where it needed to click on all cylinders.


So far, judging by this first issue of SO #1, I am very much pleased already with the story and Johns tells it so damn well to the point where it has you craving more Superman and has that "This is Superman" feel, all around. My vote is SO, but Birthright and All Seasons were still good.

[WorstThingUS]

I'm confused. I thought we hated Loeb.

This was before the fall.

I don't see how For All Seasons was so terribly important to continuity that it just had to be kept in. Nor do I see how it is gone now, since the books have not vanished. I kinda doubt DC is going to stop reprinting it as Loeb's stardom continues to rise.

For Seasons was clearly part of the continuity of no Superboy and Luthor being an older man he meets for the first time in Metropolis. Clark is pretty much a man trying to decide what to do with his life, he hasn't revealed his secret to Lana yet...it's very different. And beautiful.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/bobmitchell/blog%20pics/the%20daily%20superman/lanafly3.jpghttp://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/image/Superman_Seasons3.jpg

[Mat001]

I don't have FAS, but as I've mentioned, I place the origins separately to reflect the differences. Rather than cram MOS with SO. So for me, if I had FAS, I'd do what I've done. Place it with MOS while SO will go with Action Comics Annual #10.

[bongoes]

I'm confused. I thought we hated Loeb.

You should go read The Long Halloween. Now. That's the old good Loeb. Bad Loeb is the current one.

[DonC]

Isn't it a little early to be comparing SO to the fifty other origins we've had in the past 20 years? There's only one issue so far. It could turn out to be a horrible series.

[Karl O'Neill]

What DonC said.

I loved secret origins #1 and am very fond of superman for all seasons but it's far too early to tell.

[Mat001]

Isn't it a little early to be comparing SO to the fifty other origins we've had in the past 20 years? There's only one issue so far. It could turn out to be a horrible series.

We're only comparing two stories, not the other ones.

[Mainline]

It's a little too early to call, but so far- while I think Secret Origins is an enjoyable read- I think For All Seasons is more timeless. The story is in broader strokes and comfortable leaving most things ambiguous, subtle, or symbolic (only a few minor exceptions like nailing down Clark's childhood denomination) which means the overall tone, emotions, and storyline is... pardon... for all seasons, variations, and media representations of Superman.

So far, Secret Origins has a relatively hard modern edge (they, thankfully, glossed over the mechanics of adoption- wouldn't that have been a thrill? To read pages of adoption regulation circumvention reconciliation!) with its emphasis on rationalization, explanation, and obsession with specific trivia which may get embodied in a story or two but not really timeless (akin to Superman having an Amazonian Fortress- sure, it's rational, flows from characterization, and appears in a handful of stories... but ultimately it gets lost to time under the weight of the traditional icon). Only time will tell if it has the same heart and soul as For All Seasons, because right now there certainly are bang on emotional moments... but they have all the subtly of a mac truck. Such direct emotional manipulation is great to get the point across when a lot of your other pages are dedicated to apologetics and character introductions... but risks being artificial/put-on depending on how far its taken. But again too soon to say.

[carabas]

I agree, far far too early to tell. But so far Johns + Frank is one of the best superman creative teams in the history of the character IMO.
Also, in recent years I have developed the inability to pass impartial judgement on the works of Loeb.

It'(they, thankfully, glossed over the mechanics of adoption- wouldn't that have been a thrill? To read pages of adoption regulation circumvention reconciliation!).It's easy: Ma Kent stays out of sight for a couple of months, and then they just take baby Clark to city hall and register him as their own flesh and blood, born on the farm.

[Seven_Ride]

Where's the poll option for, "I like them both, and don't see a need to choose between them?" Because For All Seasons is great, but there have been several good origin stories over the years. None of them are name-checked in current stories, but that doesn't mean they're gone, or somehow lessened.

And someday we'll get the next canonical origin after Johns. Hopefully that one will be good too.

[dupersuper]

I agree, far far too early to tell. But so far Johns + Frank is one of the best superman creative teams in the history of the character IMO.
Also, in recent years I have developed the inability to pass impartial judgement on the works of Loeb.

It's easy: Ma Kent stays out of sight for a couple of months, and then they just take baby Clark to city hall and register him as their own flesh and blood, born on the farm.

That's the Man of Steel/World of Smallville story...

[Mat001]

That's the Man of Steel/World of Smallville story...

Which has not been contradicted. Johns is focusing on stuff that he's bringing to the table. What he's not messing with, is still canon.

[David Walton]

I really don't think it matters whether FOS it's canonical or not.

It's just a beautiful Superman story. I still cry sometimes when I read it.

I haven't read SO #1 yet, but I've got no beef with the concept. I actually think it's cool that DC reworks these things every ten to fifteen years. And they do it without going to obsessive lengths to reconcile everything now.

[dupersuper]

Which has not been contradicted. Johns is focusing on stuff that he's bringing to the table. What he's not messing with, is still canon.

I never meant to say it wasn't.

[ManofTheAtom]

Everything has its price and the cost of Secret Origin's return to a more Silver Age-orientation is that the great Jeph Loeb/Tim Sale mini For All Seasons is now gone. Was it worth it to you? Do you think they should have tried to incorporate it somehow or is the last page so awesome it banished from your mind?

Those last two options are making my head hurt.

Which one to pick? Which one to pick?

[Will.S]

I really don't think it matters whether FOS it's canonical or not.

It's just a beautiful Superman story. I still cry sometimes when I read it.

I haven't read SO #1 yet, but I've got no beef with the concept. I actually think it's cool that DC reworks these things every ten to fifteen years. And they do it without going to obsessive lengths to reconcile everything now.
My main problem was having DC go ahead with Birthright and then discard it and do Secret Origins but at least they've incorporated some elements of Birthright into Secret Origins.

By the way, isn't For All Seasons a little more in line with Byrne's Man of Steel stuff? It seems like more of an expansion of that but with a little more emotional weight thrown in. I'm actually more curious as to where Darwyne Cooke & Tim Sale's Superman Kryptonite would fit in but I'm almost convinced that it's been relegated to an out of continuity style Elseworlds.

[ManofTheAtom]

My main problem was having DC go ahead with Birthright and then discard it and do Secret Origins but at least they've incorporated some elements of Birthright into Secret Origins.

By the way, isn't For All Seasons a little more in line with Byrne's Man of Steel stuff? It seems like more of an expansion of that but with a little more emotional weight thrown in. I'm actually more curious as to where Darwyne Cooke & Tim Sale's Superman Kryptonite would fit in but I'm almost convinced that it's been relegated to an out of continuity style Elseworlds.

Yes, FOS works within the framework of MoS.

[Will.S]

Yes, FOS works within the framework of MoS.
Ahh, figured as much.

Thanks for the confirmation.

[WorstThingUS]

By the way, isn't For All Seasons a little more in line with Byrne's Man of Steel stuff? It seems like more of an expansion of that but with a little more emotional weight thrown in. I'm actually more curious as to where Darwyne Cooke & Tim Sale's Superman Kryptonite would fit in but I'm almost convinced that it's been relegated to an out of continuity style Elseworlds.

You're right. For All Seasons is based on the MOS conditions. And Geoff Johns will probably have his own "first kryptonite" story in SO, so "Kyrptonite" will probably just become an out-of-continuity story as well. But I kinda felt that way about it anyway.

[Will.S]

You're right. For All Seasons is based on the MOS conditions. And Geoff Johns will probably have his own "first kryptonite" story in SO, so "Kyrptonite" will probably just become an out-of-continuity story as well. But I kinda felt that way about it anyway.
Yeah, in a way it sort of set itself up to become a vague point in Superman continuity.

[dupersuper]

My main problem was having DC go ahead with Birthright and then discard it and do Secret Origins but at least they've incorporated some elements of Birthright into Secret Origins.

By the way, isn't For All Seasons a little more in line with Byrne's Man of Steel stuff? It seems like more of an expansion of that but with a little more emotional weight thrown in. I'm actually more curious as to where Darwyne Cooke & Tim Sale's Superman Kryptonite would fit in but I'm almost convinced that it's been relegated to an out of continuity style Elseworlds.

If you replace the Clark robot with something else (Martian Manhunter, maybe), that story still works fine.

[Seraku]

no price it too large to have Superboy and Legion of Super-Heroes canon again

[ManofTheAtom]

no price it too large to have Superboy and Legion of Super-Heroes canon again

We already had that when DnA put Superboy in the Legion series before Waid's reboot.

OOOOOOH, you mean Clark Kent as Superboy like it was in the 60s and 70s... my bad.

You didn't really mean Superboy in the Legion, you meant an outdated rehash of Superboy in the Legion that pretends that the last 25 years didn't happen.

The entire situation is absurd. Pandering has replaced storytelling.

[WorstThingUS]

We already had that when DnA put Superboy in the Legion series before Waid's reboot.

OOOOOOH, you mean Clark Kent as Superboy like it was in the 60s and 70s... my bad.

You didn't really mean Superboy in the Legion, you meant an outdated rehash of Superboy in the Legion that pretends that the last 25 years didn't happen.

The entire situation is absurd. Pandering has replaced storytelling.

You'll sing a different tune when it's you they're pandering to.

[ManofTheAtom]

You'll sing a different tune when it's you they're pandering to.

I don't want to be pandered to, I want new stories, I want to stop reading the same Supermn stories over and over again, as has been the case for the last decade

Orign

Superman Vs Zod

Superman Vs Lex

Superman Vs Bizarro

Superman Vs Brainiac

Repeat

Over and over again for a decade.

[WorstThingUS]

I don't want to be pandered to, I want new stories, I want to stop reading the same Supermn stories over and over again, as has been the case for the last decade

Orign

Superman Vs Zod

Superman Vs Lex

Superman Vs Bizarro

Superman Vs Brainiac

Repeat

Over and over again for a decade.

Actually 7 decades of Lex, 5 of Bizarro and Brainiac and 2 of Zod.

[ManofTheAtom]

Actually 7 decades of Lex, 5 of Bizarro and Brainiac and 2 of Zod.

You missed the point.

Over the last decade, the witers have told the same four stories over and over again.

They have introduced four or so different versions of Zod and Brainiac, four or so different origins, and variations on Lex and Bizarro as well.

[The Batman]

So, if they're introducing new and different versions of the characters, how are they telling the same stories?

[ManofTheAtom]

So, if they're introducing new and different versions of the characters, how are they telling the same stories?

Oh, please.

They are compiting to see which one of them can tell the better regurgitated story at the cost of consistancy, character, and continuity to pander to fans of the 60s.

Don't make excuses for why it's acceptable to follow a formula.

[The Batman]

That really didn't answer my question.

How, for example, was "Last Son" just like the Phatom Zod storyline or the Russian Zod storyline?

[ManofTheAtom]

That really didn't answer my question.

How, for example, was "Last Son" just like the Phatom Zod storyline or the Russian Zod storyline?

They were all Zod stories, period.

This isn't about content, it's about telling "yet another Zod story".

How about telling stories with characters that haven't been used a handful of times in the last decade, or creating new characters, or advancing the character's arcs instead of continue to circle the same drain?

[The Joker]

A wee bit too early for me to really choose which is better, but I have to say that "For All Seasons" was a superb Superman story, and I enjoyed it very much. Even more so than Byrne's "Man of Steel", which I actually like quite a bit as well. One of my favourite moments in FOS, was the scene where after being saved by Superman, a kid gives Superman a compliment on his costume, and Supes responds with, "Thanks. My mom made it for me".

Great stuff.

[WorstThingUS]

You missed the point.

Over the last decade, the witers have told the same four stories over and over again.

They have introduced four or so different versions of Zod and Brainiac, four or so different origins, and variations on Lex and Bizarro as well.

No, you missed the point. Just because a character is used repeatedly doesn't mean every story is the same in content, style or purpose. Businessman Lex isn't President Lex isn't Mad Scientist Lex. And over the last decade Superman carred four books a month and I'm pretty sure it wasn't those four villains only in them. Those are just the ones you remember and that should tell you something.

[Mat001]

Since 1999 the main villains in the Superman books have been Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Zod, Ruin, Gog, the Mxy twins, Imperiex, Mongul, the Parasite, Ignition, Ultraman, Darkseid, Preus, Doomsday, Manchester Black, Earthman, Superboy-Prime, Equus and Mr. Orr. And in the years before them, Lex was used a whole bunch. As was the Phantom Zone villains, Brainiac, Metallo, the Toyman, the Parasite and so on.

And I hate to say it, but after 71 years, at some point the story will be told over and over. Lex was used in every decade since his debut in the 40's. Why didn't you complain about that then? Lex was used about twice a year before 1986 and then he was in nearly every issue, save for a few gaps here and there. But once that was done, he was back in the spotlight again.

[ManofTheAtom]

No, you missed the point. Just because a character is used repeatedly doesn't mean every story is the same in content, style or purpose. Businessman Lex isn't President Lex isn't Mad Scientist Lex. And over the last decade Superman carred four books a month and I'm pretty sure it wasn't those four villains only in them. Those are just the ones you remember and that should tell you something.

Irrelevant.

It is still "yet ANOTHER Zod/Lex/Braniac/Bizarro story", and I'm fed up with reading the same characters again and again.

Just because the fanboy writers are unable to come up with new stories and characters that don't fall within the pervue of pandering to the Silver Age or redoing a character our of hatred of Byrne, it doesn;t mean it can't be done, it only means that THEY can't do it.

[ManofTheAtom]

Since 1999 the main villains in the Superman books have been Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Zod, Ruin, Gog, the Mxy twins, Imperiex, Mongul, the Parasite, Ignition, Ultraman, Darkseid, Preus, Doomsday, Manchester Black, Earthman, Superboy-Prime, Equus and Mr. Orr. And in the years before them, Lex was used a whole bunch. As was the Phantom Zone villains, Brainiac, Metallo, the Toyman, the Parasite and so on.

And I hate to say it, but after 71 years, at some point the story will be told over and over. Lex was used in every decade since his debut in the 40's. Why didn't you complain about that then? Lex was used about twice a year before 1986 and then he was in nearly every issue, save for a few gaps here and there. But once that was done, he was back in the spotlight again.

Correction, since 87 until Loeb, there were no "Phantom Zone villains". They appeared only once when Superman executed them for genocide.

The difference between then and now is that then the Lex stories told a continuing arc, they didn't retcon or reboot the character willy-nilly because a new origin has been done, which is the case today.

Same goes for Brainiac and Zod.

"Zod is Russian... no, wait, he's a Phantom Zone villain in an armor... no, wait, he is a Phantom Zone villain in a grey suit!!"

"Brainiac is an android... no, wait, he's from the future... no, wait, he is a virus... no, wait, he has no pants... no, wait, he is a... whatever the current Brainiac is!"

"Bizarro is Superman's clone... no, wait, he is from Mxy's world... no, wait, he is a clone again!!"

BS pilled on top of bs in the space of a single decade... and you're excusing it?

[BeastieRunner]

I liked All-Star's origin best.

[WorstThingUS]

Irrelevant.

It is still "yet ANOTHER Zod/Lex/Braniac/Bizarro story", and I'm fed up with reading the same characters again and again.

Just because the fanboy writers are unable to come up with new stories and characters that don't fall within the pervue of pandering to the Silver Age or redoing a character our of hatred of Byrne, it doesn;t mean it can't be done, it only means that THEY can't do it.

By your logic All Star Superman comes under that heading and unworthy of your time and Morrison is an unimaginative fanboy for using Luthor and showing so much love of the Silver Age. As another poster noted, the last 20 years of Superman have been filled with villains, but you only remember the presence of the iconic ones making you ironically part of the problem as someone who overlooks attempts to create new ones.

[WorstThingUS]

Correction, since 87 until Loeb, there were no "Phantom Zone villains". They appeared only once when Superman executed them for genocide.

The difference between then and now is that then the Lex stories told a continuing arc, they didn't retcon or reboot the character willy-nilly because a new origin has been done, which is the case today.

Same goes for Brainiac and Zod.

But their reboot in 87 was okay, right? Because that was your time. Screw all those people who enjoyed the previous versions, right?

is Russian... no, wait, he's a Phantom Zone villain in an armor... no, wait, he is a Phantom Zone villain in a grey suit!!"

There was one real Zod and Superman killed him. The other COMPLETELY DIFFERENT Zod was Russian and the For Tomorrow Zod wasn't even real. No character was being continuously rebooted.

"Brainiac is an android... no, wait, he's from the future... no, wait, he is a virus... no, wait, he has no pants... no, wait, he is a... whatever the current Brainiac is!"

Your ignorance is staggering. All the Braniacs are one and the same. He hasn't been rebooted, only his use of probes extrapolated upon. The Brainiac of the last 20 years who thought he was the main one, was actually only a probe himself.

Bizarro is Superman's clone... no, wait, he is from Mxy's world... no, wait, he is a clone again!!"

Again your ignorance at work. The original Bizarro died, period. The Joke recreated him during the great Emperor Joker storyline. That's it. A whopping two and yet this confused the hell out of you. Shocking.

pilled on top of bs in the space of a single decade... and you're excusing it?

He's not and it's your utter ignorance of the last twenty years of Superman that you're criticizing that has no excuse.

[ManofTheAtom]

By your logic All Star Superman comes under that heading and unworthy of your time and Morrison is an unimaginative fanboy for using Luthor and showing so much love of the Silver Age. As another poster noted, the last 20 years of Superman have been filled with villains, but you only remember the presence of the iconic ones making you ironically part of the problem as someone who overlooks attempts to create new ones.

I'm not focusing on the last 20 years, I'm focusing on the last 10 years.

Origin

Lex

Zod

Bizarro

Brainic

Repeat

Origin

Lex

Zod

Bizarro

Brainiac

Repeat

Lame, lame, lame, lame

[ManofTheAtom]

But their reboot in 87 was okay, right? Because that was your time. Screw all those people who enjoyed the previous versions, right?

The versions from the SA and GA ENDED in 87 with Crisis and WHTTMOT. Those iterations got a conclusion to their story.

It's not "screw you, fanboy!" or "nah nah nah nah, fanboy", it's "the version of Superman YOU enjoyed got a satisfying ending that honored his particular history, and new version replaced him."

Instead of accepting that, the SA fanboys, full of hatred, refuse to accept the end of the SA versions and DEMAND their eternal inclusion in the comics at the cost of any others.

There was one real Zod and Superman killed him. The other COMPLETELY DIFFERENT Zod was Russian and the For Tomorrow Zod wasn't even real. No character was being continuously rebooted.

Oh, please. Lame excuse.

Then why doesn't Superman recall meeting the other Zods if they are different characters?

Why the frak did Busiek try to sell us the "Yod" bs?

Your ignorance is staggering. All the Braniacs are one and the same. He hasn't been rebooted, only his use of probes extrapolated upon. The Brainiac of the last 20 years who thought he was the main one, was actually only a probe himself.

Again, poor excuse.

Again your ignorance at work. The original Bizarro died, period. The Joke recreated him during the great Emperor Joker storyline. That's it. A whopping two and yet this confused the hell out of you. Shocking.

That Bizarro came over to the "real" reality and was later "revealed" to still be a clone of Superman.

Poor writing pilled on top of poorer writing.

He's not and it's your utter ignorance of the last twenty years of Superman that you're criticizing that has no excuse.

Again with the 20 years.

Focus on the last 10 years of fanboy bs.

[WorstThingUS]

Oh, please. Lame excuse.

No, it's an explanation using facts you didn't know and clearly don't like. There was only one Zod. You said there were reboots of Zod. You were wrong.

Then why doesn't Superman recall meeting the other Zods if they are different characters?

Why the frak did Busiek try to sell us the "Yod" bs?

Superman recalls every Zod. He wondered how the Russian Zod could be because he knew the real Zod was dead. And again, the For Tomorrow Zod wasn't even real.

Again, poor excuse.

You might want to look that word up so you know a fact that counters your opinion is not an excuse.


That Bizarro came over to the "real" reality and was later "revealed" to still be a clone of Superman.

Poor writing pilled on top of poorer writing.

You claimed the character was being endlessly rebooted. He was not. There were two Bizarros. One is dead and remained dead. The other was created under completely different circumstance but based on the first (which is why he'd still be a clone) and had a completely different personality.

Again with the 20 years.

Focus on the last 10 years of fanboy bs.

That's not making anything you've said about Zod or Bizarro or Brainiac or even Luthor any less wrong. They haven't been continuously rebooted. They are his prime bad guys and have earned the spot by being more interesting and challenging that the dozens of other created over the last decade. They have to show up on a semi-regular basis. If you don't know that, welcome to comics.

[ManofTheAtom]

No, it's an explanation using facts you didn't know and clearly don't like. There was only one Zod. You said there were reboots of Zod. You were wrong.

There have been THREE Kryptonian Zods and one Russian Zod counting the one from Last Son (though I may be forgetting one or two as Johns said that there are like five or six).

When Superman saw the Last Son Zod he acted like he had never met a man named Zod before in his life.

Superman recalls every Zod. He wondered how the Russian Zod could be because he knew the real Zod was dead. And again, the For Tomorrow Zod wasn't even real.

BULL

He recalled the real Zod DURING Our Worlds At War when he visited his psychiatrist, but since Infinite Crisis he has behaved like the only Zod he has ever met is the one from Last Son.

Busiek's explanation at the time was that the Russian Zod and those that came before him were not really Zod, they were other people (a retcon due to the reboots).

He refered to the Russian Zod as "Yod" during his half-assed justification to the Superman Homepage.

Where are you getting this "For Tomorrow was not real" idea?

You might want to look that word up so you know a fact that counters your opinion is not an excuse.

And you might want to look into doing some research on the issue before you get your facts wrong.

You claimed the character was being endlessly rebooted. He was not. There were two Bizarros. One is dead and remained dead. The other was created under completely different circumstance but based on the first (which is why he'd still be a clone) and had a completely different personality.

BULL, again.

In the amptly named "Birthwrong" two-page story in a Superman Secret Files one shot it was "revealed" that the Bizarro who believed himself to have originated from the Joker's world in Emperor Joker was really one of the clones Lex Luthor created, thus RETCONING his origin.

That's not making anything you've said about Zod or Bizarro or Brainiac or even Luthor any less wrong. They haven't been continuously rebooted. They are his prime bad guys and have earned the spot by being more interesting and challenging that the dozens of other created over the last decade. They have to show up on a semi-regular basis. If you don't know that, welcome to comics

Once more, you are missing the point.

These are the only four or five stories we have seen in the last decade.

An origin, a fight with Lex, a fight with Zod, a fight with Brainiac, a fight with Bizarro, and that's it.

Those have been the five stories that have taken precedent and the ones that keep being altered with each subsequent origin.

When Loeb's Silver Age crap was intented to become the new origin, Lex was President and knew Superman's secret Bizarro came from Joker's world, and Brainiac came from the future, and Zod was Russian.

When Birthright became the origin, Lex was a kid who hired an actor to pretend to be his dad so he could move to Smallville and investigate alies, Bizarro still came from Joker's world, Brainiac became a computer virus, and Zod was an armored Kryptonian in a paradise Phantom Zone that Superman created who Jor-El imprisoned there.

When Infinite Crisis happened, Lex was now the son of Lionel Luthor who moved to Smallvlle to become a man or some such crap, Bizarro became Superman's clone again, Brainiac is now an alien probe, and Zod is the one from Last Son, who is NOT the same as the one from For Tomorrow.

That's, at the very least, three retcons and/or reboots of the same five characters in less than a decade.

And you have the gull to make excuses for it?

Stop defending subpar writing.

I've been reading Superman comics since 87 and I had never seen this level of incompetence.

Massive correction.. I've been reading comics in general for over 20 years and I have never seen this level of incompetence on any other series, with any other character, from any other publisher that has ever existed.

Three different versions of the same five characters in the space of a decade?

You would think that writers who are supposed to be good at their job would do better than this, but instead of telling compelling, consistant stories, they are more worried with pandering to fans of the Silver Age, outdoing each other, and are driven by their hatred for Man of Steel.

[dupersuper]

Since 1999 the main villains in the Superman books have been Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Zod, Ruin, Gog, the Mxy twins, Imperiex, Mongul, the Parasite, Ignition, Ultraman, Darkseid, Preus, Doomsday, Manchester Black, Earthman, Superboy-Prime, Equus and Mr. Orr. And in the years before them, Lex was used a whole bunch. As was the Phantom Zone villains, Brainiac, Metallo, the Toyman, the Parasite and so on.

And I hate to say it, but after 71 years, at some point the story will be told over and over. Lex was used in every decade since his debut in the 40's. Why didn't you complain about that then? Lex was used about twice a year before 1986 and then he was in nearly every issue, save for a few gaps here and there. But once that was done, he was back in the spotlight again.

Don't forget Russian Zod, his version of Faora, Kancer, Dracula, Dominous, Millenium Giants, Millenium Guard, the Futuresmiths, Cybermoths, Cyborg Superman, Tangent Superman, Blaze, Satanus, the Kryptonian-hunter from Busieks run, Subject 17, Auctioneer...
and Bloodsport, Riot and Intergang were all in last issue
Blackrock 2 then 3 have been introduced
and General Lane, K Squad, Codename Assassin, their sorceress, Atlas and the rest of 7334 are a new wrinkle for Superman enemies
Reactron and Neutron have been featured prominently lately
even Loophole showed up in JLA/Avengers, and Bloodsport 3 and Riot were seen in Back in Action along with Puzzler 2, Silver Banshee, Helgramite and Livewire
and then there was the Kandorian empath
and the army of mind-controlled villains from Manchester Blacks final arc
Johns did a whole issue on Toyman, and Busiek loved using Prankster
to say nothing of Mercy, Doomsday, Persuader, Livewire, Neutron, Metallo, Parasite, Intergang, Toyman etc. getting featured in Smallville, Parasite, Silver Banshee, Mongul, Riot and others in the background in Public Enemies, Doomsday and Toyman in Superman/Doomsday, Silver Banshee, Metallo, Bloodsport, Toyman, etc. in JLU, Mongul and Mongal in Brave&Bold, Imperiex in the Legion cartoon...
The lesser and newer villains have gotten plenty of facetime the past decade

[carabas]

our ignorance is staggering. All the Braniacs are one and the same. He hasn't been rebooted, only his use of probes extrapolated upon. The Brainiac of the last 20 years who thought he was the main one, was actually only a probe himself.That is a very, very recent retcon.

Superman recalls every Zod. He wondered how the Russian Zod could be because he knew the real Zod was dead. And again, the For Tomorrow Zod wasn't even real.A wee bit out of date: Byrne-Zod at least has been wiped from continuity.

[ManofTheAtom]

That is a very, very recent retcon.

A wee bit out of date: Byrne-Zod at least has been wiped from continuity.

The Milton Fine Brainiac was the disembodied intelect of the Brainiac from Colu who, after he was dissasemgbled by the Tyrants of Colu, found refuge in Fine's mind.

Was that addressed in Johns' story? I haven't bothered to read it.

[WorstThingUS]

There have been THREE Kryptonian Zods and one Russian Zod counting the one from Last Son (though I may be forgetting one or two as Johns said that there are like five or six).

First of all, under Byrne, there was no Kyrptonian Zod, period. The Kryptonian Zod was from the pocket universe created by the Time Trapper. That character was killed. One Russian Zod. Also dead. One Zod in the universe Brainiac created to try and trap Superman who was also killed. The For Tomorrow Zod was a result of the Birthright revamp, so that's one actual Zod from the same reality as Superman, no reboots of his character in 20 years.

When Superman saw the Last Son Zod he acted like he had never met a man named Zod before in his life.

Which is the post Infinite Crisis reboot so why should he?



BULL

He recalled the real Zod DURING Our Worlds At War when he visited his psychiatrist, but since Infinite Crisis he has behaved like the only Zod he has ever met is the one from Last Son.

Again, Last Son is post reboot in which the entire DCU was rebooted, so it really doesn't apply to your "within ten year" criteria.

Busiek's explanation at the time was that the Russian Zod and those that came before him were not really Zod, they were other people (a retcon due to the reboots).

He refered to the Russian Zod as "Yod" during his half-assed justification to the Superman Homepage.

And Russian Zod was supposed to be Superman from the pocket universe Brainiac created. So what? What matters is what finally appeared in the comic in the context of the story. Clearly your issues extend beyond the comics.

Where are you getting this "For Tomorrow was not real" idea?

I was clearly confusing him with the robots that were destroyed.

And you might want to look into doing some research on the issue before you get your facts wrong.

I did. And you're still wrong. Zod never existed in the Byrne version so he couldn't be rebooted. All the other Zods were totally different characters.

BULL, again.

In the amptly named "Birthwrong" two-page story in a Superman Secret Files one shot it was "revealed" that the Bizarro who believed himself to have originated from the Joker's world in Emperor Joker was really one of the clones Lex Luthor created, thus RETCONING his origin.

One retcon. One. The original Bizarro died and has never returned and his death wasn't retconned away. The Emperor Joker Bizarro was retconned as from that same experiment. So that's still two whole Bizarros that confused you, and one retcon, not multiple retcons as you claim.

Once more, you are missing the point.

These are the only four or five stories we have seen in the last decade.

An origin, a fight with Lex, a fight with Zod, a fight with Brainiac, a fight with Bizarro, and that's it.

Those have been the five stories that have taken precedent and the ones that keep being altered with each subsequent origin.

One origin that changed things: Birthright.

When Loeb's Silver Age crap was intented to become the new origin, Lex was President and knew Superman's secret Bizarro came from Joker's world, and Brainiac came from the future, and Zod was Russian.

Sigh. The Brainiac from the future was a descendant of the Brainiac in the present. The virus Brainiac was still that Brainiac. It's spelled out clearly in the story. Sorry you so clearly missed it though one thinks that it was #13 might have helped you. One Brainiac for 20 years. Not multiple retconned Brainiacs and even the one from Johns comes post-Infinite Crisis. So Brainaic went without retcon for 20 years.


That's, at the very least, three retcons and/or reboots of the same five characters in less than a decade.

And you're totally wrong.
Luthor: retconned in Birthright
Brainiac: never retconned
Zod: multiple versions, but a Zod from the same krypton as Superman didn't exist until Birthright
Bizarro: Original died, second retconned from being created by The Joker to being from the same as the original.

And you have the gull to make excuses for it?

Stop defending subpar writing.

Stop defending and making excuses for your clear confusion and ignorance. You didn't know none of those Zods were the same Zod. You didn't know the original Bizarro died and never came back. You didn't know that the virus and future Brainiacs were all the same.

I've been reading Superman comics since 87 and I had never seen this level of incompetence.

Massive correction.. I've been reading comics in general for over 20 years and I have never seen this level of incompetence on any other series, with any other character, from any other publisher that has ever existed.

Three different versions of the same five characters in the space of a decade?

I question your definition of "reading" since "comprehension" may be a problem and "retention" sure is.

You would think that writers who are supposed to be good at their job would do better than this, but instead of telling compelling, consistant stories, they are more worried with pandering to fans of the Silver Age, outdoing each other, and are driven by their hatred for Man of Steel.

You'd think someone who's speaking with such outrage would buy a clue. You don't know what's going and I notice there's never any mention of the actual stories involved. Your outrage isn't based on the quality of writing so much as your inability to understand what's going on so you blame others and insist it's bad writing. That's like skipping chapters and complaining the book is bad. The problem lies not within the comics, but yourself.

[dupersuper]

A wee bit out of date: Byrne-Zod at least has been wiped from continuity.

Not in my happy world...


Again, Last Son is post reboot in which the entire DCU was rebooted, so it really doesn't apply to your "within ten year" criteria.


Using that logic any discussion of the reboots the past decade are meaningless since you're only recognizing the past few years

[ManofTheAtom]

I'm not gonna bother, it's pointless.

Clearly you enjoy poor writing and like to defend it.

[WorstThingUS]

Using that logic any discussion of the reboots the past decade are meaningless since you're only recognizing the past few years

It ain't my logic, but his. He insisted on the ten year rule.

I'm not gonna bother, it's pointless.

Clearly you enjoy poor writing and like to defend it.

Ha! I'm not one to gloat but...yes I am. I proved you wrong on all counts and you know it.

And my point remains, you never spoke of the stories themselves, only the machinery within the stories. Let's say you were right---and you weren't---and there had been five character reboots or retcons in five years. If the stories were good, so what? Most retcons are Jason Todd, but some are occasionally Bucky Barnes.

[ManofTheAtom]

It ain't my logic, but his. He insisted on the ten year rule.



Ha! I'm not one to gloat but...yes I am. I proved you wrong on all counts and you know it.

And my point remains, you never spoke of the stories themselves, only the machinery within the stories. Let's say you were right---and you weren't---and there had been five character reboots or retcons in five years. If the stories were good, so what? Most retcons are Jason Todd, but some are occasionally Bucky Barnes.

All you proved is your admiration for sub par writing and your lack of understanding of the stories.

The stories were shit, that's why they had to be replaced.

Good stories stand the test of time. Shitty stories need to be ignored like they never happened.

We've had 10 years of shitty Superman comics, which is why very little, to anything,, of consequence, has happened in them that is still valid today, unlike before the shit started, when we had over 20 years of consistant stories that build on each other to create that would be called a saga.

There is nothing in the comics today that came from the comics made in the last 10 years that can be traced back to when the shit started

[WorstThingUS]

All you proved is your admiration for sub par writing and your lack of understanding of the stories.

Says the man who never understood there was only one Brainiac for 20 years.

stories were shit, that's why they had to be replaced.

Good stories stand the test of time. Shitty stories need to be ignored like they never happened.

Good stories get retconned just like bad stories. Nothing is set in stone. Nothing.

had 10 years of shitty Superman comics, which is why very little, to anything,, of consequence, has happened in them that is still valid today

Because you were wrong, you're not understanding that nothing Brainiac has done for 20 years is gone. Nothing Bizarro has done is gone. Luthor stories involving him being a contemporary of Perry White are gone (bye bye, Jerry) not a lot depended on him being older than Clark so they aren't gone. Pocket Universe Zod is gone and Brainiac Dimension Zod is gone, but For Tomorrow Zod was merely rebooted and Russian Zod remains untouched.

unlike before the shit started, when we had over 20 years of consistant stories that build on each other to create that would be called a saga.

Really, because the last I heard Crisis on Infinite Earths was rebooted with Zero Hour which meant it only lasted ten years. The irony here is, the one thing that did go untouched for 20 years and can compose a saga is...Brainiac. And you didn't understand it.

There is nothing in the comics today that came from the comics made in the last 10 years that can be traced back to when the shit started

Except Brainiac....and Luthor....and Bizarro

[ManofTheAtom]

Says the man who never understood there was only one Brainiac for 20 years.

That's a RETCON, you stupid idiot!!!

Again, it's pointless to argue with you.

The last 10 years have been filled with retcons and reboots that have changed the same five characters multiple times.

[WorstThingUS]

That's a RETCON, you stupid idiot!!!

For 20 years there was one Brainiac. Post Infinite Crisis, Geoff Johns changed that Brainiac into just being a clone probe of the "real" Brainiac. That means from the appearance of Milton Fine to Brainiacs 6, 12 and 13 from the future, it's all been one character. No retcons. And even with this retcon, none of those stories change.

Again, it's pointless to argue with you.

The last 10 years have been filled with retcons and reboots that have changed the same five characters multiple times.

No, they haven't and I've proven that. Brainiac was never retconned. Luthor was retconned once with Birthright. Zod was retconned into existence with Birthright, but the other three were all different. The second Bizarro's origin was retconned into being the same as the first Bizarro.

You're the only person not getting this.

[thehod]

Seeing as Tim Sale draws, hands down, the best version of Superman I've ever seen, I'll always love SFAS.

However, Secret Origin was a very enjoyable read.

So that's both then.

[ManofTheAtom]

For 20 years there was one Brainiac. Post Infinite Crisis, Geoff Johns changed that Brainiac into just being a clone probe of the "real" Brainiac. That means from the appearance of Milton Fine to Brainiac 13 from the future, is all one character. No retcons.

You don't even know what retcon means!!!

Retcon is short hand for retroactive continuity.

What Johns did was alter past continuity, he retconned it, to introduce his probe idea.

That's a retcon.

You are an ignorant fool who doesn't even understand simple terminlogy. You are ill equipt to have this argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon

Get educated and then you can come back to have this discussion.

Retcons often add information that effectively states "what you saw isn't what really happened" and then introduce a different version of the backstory.

How is what Johns did NOT a retcon?

[Duy]

Seeing as Tim Sale draws, hands down, the best version of Superman I've ever seen, I'll always love SFAS.


I think Tim Sale's Superman looks like a dunce, honestly.

[WorstThingUS]

You don't even know what retcon means!!!

Retcon is short hand for retroactive continuity.

What Johns did was alter past continuity, he retconned it, to introduce his probe idea.

That's a retcon.

You are an ignorant fool who doesn't even understand simple terminlogy. You are ill equipt to have this argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon

Get educated and then you can come back to have this discussion.

Retcons often add information that effectively states "what you saw isn't what really happened" and then introduce a different version of the backstory.

How is what Johns did NOT a retcon?

It's a retcon, but you were the who said there were years of retcons before that. There were not. You're so busy frothing at the mouth and screaming insults you can't read my words any better than you can read comics. For 20 years there were no retcons with Brainiac be 1 or 13 until Infinite Crisis which rebooted the entire DCU and so doesn't apply to your "last ten years" criteria which I was following.

You're so wrong you can't even agree with yourself.

[ManofTheAtom]

It's a retcon, but you were the who said there were years of retcons before that. There were not. You're so busy frothing at the mouth and screaming insults you can't read my words any better than you can read comics. For 20 years there were no retcons with Brainiac be 1 or 13 until Infinite Crisis which rebooted the entire DCU and so doesn't apply to your "last ten years" criteria which I was following.

You're so wrong you can't even agree with yourself.

You idiot. These retcons and reboots were justified before Infinite Crisis as being caused by Superboy Prime's punches, which altered continuity, retconning it.

There have been multiple retcons and reboots in the Superman comics over the last 10 years, but you enjoy them so much because you're a fan of poor writing that you're blinded to them.

Your ego won't allow you to admit that when you claimed that what Johns did with Brainiac was not a retcon you were wrong.

[Duy]

You idiot. These retcons and reboots were justified before Infinite Crisis as being caused by Superboy Prime's punches, which altered continuity, retconning it.

There have been multiple retcons and reboots in the Superman comics over the last 10 years, but you enjoy them so much because you're a fan of poor writing that you're blinded to them.

Your ego won't allow you to admit that when you claimed that what Johns did with Brainiac was not a retcon you were wrong.

How could something be justified BEFORE Infinite Crisis as being cause by Superboy Prime's punches?????

Who are you to call what someone enjoys "poor writing," just because you don't??

And to top it all off, calling someone "idiot" is a bannable offense.

[ManofTheAtom]

How could something be justified BEFORE Infinite Crisis as being cause by Superboy Prime's punches?????

Who are you to call what someone enjoys "poor writing," just because you don't??

And to top it all off, calling someone "idiot" is a bannable offense.

Superboy Prime's punches had an effect before Infinite Crisis came out, like bringing Jason Todd back to life.

Jason had been alive since Hush (as a RETCON later revealed).

Hush came out years before Infinite Crisis.

Prime's punches resulted in the stupid ass retcons and reboots that occured Pre IC, while IC itself (or rather, "New Earth") resulted in Secret Origin.

[WorstThingUS]

You idiot. These retcons and reboots were justified before Infinite Crisis as being caused by Superboy Prime's punches, which altered continuity, retconning it.

There's nothing in Brainiac's past that was altered or changed by a "Superboy punch." You simply didn't understand that they were all the same character.

There have been multiple retcons and reboots in the Superman comics over the last 10 years, but you enjoy them so much because you're a fan of poor writing that you're blinded to them.

I've shot down all your claims about Luthor, Zod and Bizarro being retconned multiple times. I've shot down all your claims about Brainiac being retconned at all. Show me where I'm wrong, because I've easily shown where you were.

Your ego won't allow you to admit that when you claimed that what Johns did with Brainiac was not a retcon you were wrong.

You're the one who set the criteria of the last ten years, which I took to mean "up until Inifinite Crisis" which shouldn't apply because EVERYTHING got rebooted. Brainiac was not rebooted over the last ten years or even twenty. You. Were. Wrong. But hey let me do it again in your simple terms you can understand:

Luthor: retconned once in Birthright...and once for Infinite Crisis
Brainiac: never retconned...until Infinite Crisis
Zod: multiple versions, but a Zod from the same krypton as Superman didn't exist until Birthright...and retconned once for Infinite Crisis
Bizarro: Original died, second retconned from being created by The Joker to being from the same as the original.

Where are the "multiple retcons" for each character you claim exist?

[Duy]

Superboy Prime's punches had an effect before Infinite Crisis came out, like bringing Jason Todd back to life.

Jason had been alive since Hush (as a RETCON later revealed).

Hush came out years before Infinite Crisis.

Prime's punches resulted in the stupid ass retcons and reboots that occured Pre IC, while IC itself (or rather, "New Earth") resulted in Secret Origin.

Regardless, how could it have been justified BEFORE Infinite Crisis when Superboy Prime's punch wasn't shown UNTIL Infinite Crisis?

[ManofTheAtom]

Regardless, how could it have been justified BEFORE Infinite Crisis when Superboy Prime's punch wasn't shown UNTIL Infinite Crisis?

Very well..

These stupid ass retcons were justified as being created by Superboy Prime's stupid "I want the multiverse back to pander to fanboys" tantrum.

Better?

[Duy]

Very well..

These stupid ass retcons were justified as being created by Superboy Prime's stupid "I want the multiverse back to pander to fanboys" tantrum.

Better?

Perhaps the multiverse was brought back because it's a legitimate storytelling device that is used in pretty much any area of science fiction, which includes Marvel comics, and there's zero reason for DC to not use it.

Regardless, your sentence was badly worded, as is much of your arguments.

You keep saying everything is pandering to fanboys, but you're just as much a fanboy for the stuff you like, and you don't want it changed.

[WorstThingUS]

It is one of many retcons seen in the last decade.

You keep saying that and offer no examples of "many."

Because you cannot.

Because you are wrong.

[Duy]

Because you are wrong.

He tends to be.

[Rev. Calibos]

I had to go with Byrne's Krypton was good for me.

I'm not the biggest Bryne fan in the world but I liked his approach to the character. For 50 years the character had grown and had added a significant supporting cast and Byrne was right, there were a number of 'barnacles' that had attached themselves to the side of the ship.

With Man of Steel Byrne was able to wipe all of that away and leave what was most vital about the character. And while I'm all for embracing history it seems that re-affixing those portions that were removed seems sort of counter intuitive.


For instance, let's look at Krypto.

A lot of Amercan boys had dogs so it stands to reason that Superboy while growning up in Smallville would have a dog. But not just ANY dog, this would have to be a Super Dog, a dog sent to Earth by Jor-El and.....well, we all know the story.

Post Crisis Krypto didn't exist but they found a way to make Krypto a part of the story without adding on the barnacle of 'Alien Dog'.

Bibbo, one of Superman's former supporting cast members, happened to see a woman toss a bag of puppies into the river.

She couldn't afford to keep and feed them so drowning them seemed to be the only kind thing to do.

Bibbo sees this and, awesome guy that he is, jumps in after them to save them.

Despite his best efforts he's only able to save one. Thinking of a name he wants to honor his 'favrit' hero Sooperman' by naming the puppy 'Krypton'.

Unfortunately, the dog tag only fit the first 6 letters of that leaving the dog to be named 'Krypto'.

(and if I recall correctly there was more to the story than that but I don't have that issue handy, if someone else remembers this particular story and would like to elaborate feel free)

With that one little switch they found a realistic, sensible way to give the Superman family of books their Krypto without adding an alien dog with a cape to the cast.


Anyway, as much as I'm loving the new current storyline in the Superman books with WONK I can't help but feel that the Superman end of the DCU is far too cluttered. I figure once WONK comes to a close we'll see the newly restored Kryptonians leave our orbit for greener pastures but that will still leave us with a crowded Super Family. I'd much prefer a return to the more streamlined feel that we received post Man of Steel.

[ManofTheAtom]

Perhaps the multiverse was brought back because it's a legitimate storytelling device that is used in pretty much any area of science fiction, which includes Marvel comics, and there's zero reason for DC to not use it.

Regardless, your sentence was badly worded, as is much of your arguments.

You keep saying everything is pandering to fanboys, but you're just as much a fanboy for the stuff you like, and you don't want it changed.

Wrong.

I liked MoS, in which Lois & Clark are not married as much as I like them married.

That's change.

I liked the original Post Crisis Lex as much as I liked Lex II.

That's change.

What I don't like is the pseuudo Silver Age brought back to pander to fanboys who can't let go of the past.

The multiverse has only been used in shity stories like Countdown and Final Crisis, which were not received well by readers. Only the fanboys loved them.

Even the people who make the comics can't keep their shit straight, as Kyle appearing in Countdown at the same time as he was taken over byParallax in Sinestro Wars, and the discrepency between the crystal Fortress in Lighting Saga and the Silver Age Fortress in Countdown on what was supposed to be a replica of the same exact scene prove.

If the morons who make the comics can't be bothered to give a damn to keep their shit straight, why should I?

[Seraku]

also really, aside from TLH/DV all the Sale/Loeb stuff are only barely in the continuity.

[Mat001]

The multiverse has only been used in shity stories like Countdown and Final Crisis, which were not received well by readers. Only the fanboys loved them.

Just because the stories didn't hold to your standards, doesn't mean that the Multiverse is a bad idea. See "Thy Kingdom Come" and "Legion Of 3 Worlds".

Even the people who make the comics can't keep their shit straight, as Kyle appearing in Countdown at the same time as he was taken over byParallax in Sinestro Wars, and the discrepency between the crystal Fortress in Lighting Saga and the Silver Age Fortress in Countdown on what was supposed to be a replica of the same exact scene prove.

"Sinestro Corps War" takes place before Kyle joins the Challengers in "Countdown To Final Crisis". And it was explained before "Countdown To Final Crisis" that Superman has more than one Fortress around the world. In fact in Action Comics #840, one year before then. In fact, in "52", Booster Gold and Rip Hunter refer to one of Clark's old Fortresses. Clark refers to this fact and it showed up again in Superman #670. So seeing the Silver Age Fortress is not out of the question. Clark hadn't finished transfering all of his stuff to the Sunstone Fortress.

If the morons who make the comics can't be bothered to give a damn to keep their shit straight, why should I?

Wow, real mature. Let's follow this again.

1. Lex Luthor was only retconned twice since 1986. But Luthor appeared in the Superman books nearly all the time. So where's your complaints about those stories?

2. Brainiac was never retconned until "Infinite Crisis" and the "Brainiac" arc. The only thing that's ever changed is what he looks like. He's appeared a lot over the years. Next to Lex, the two of them make up the bulk of Superman's long history in terms of appearences. Where's your complaints about "Headhunter", "The Brainiac Trilogy", "Panic In The Sky", "Dead Again", "Identity Crisis" and "The Doomsday Wars"?

3. Bizarro clone #1 debuted in MOS #5. He was killed. Clone #2 debuted in 1993's, "Bizarro's World". He died by story's end. A third clone debuted in "Superman Forever" #1 and was killed off. Bizarro #4 is the one created by the Joker in "Emperor Joker". He's been around ever since, so that they don't have to keep killing him off. He's been used in either team efforts or solo tales.

http://www.dccomics.com/media/_dcu/heroes_and_villains/origin_stories/bizarro/1.jpg

http://www.dccomics.com/media/_dcu/heroes_and_villains/origin_stories/bizarro/2.jpg

All Bizarro stories are in continuity as shown in this profile.

What I don't like is the pseuudo Silver Age brought back to pander to fanboys who can't let go of the past.

Here's an idea, STOP READING THE DAMN THING!

[David Walton]

With that one little switch they found a realistic, sensible way to give the Superman family of books their Krypto without adding an alien dog with a cape to the cast.

It's certainly much more sensible, but much less like a superhero fantasy.

If Krypto can't fly, what's the point?

[Rev. Calibos]

It's certainly much more sensible, but much less like a superhero fantasy.

If Krypto can't fly, what's the point?

This is true I suppose, I take issue with the flying dog from another planet but not the flying man from another planet?

Krypto and other silver age flourishes that are making their way back to the books aren't bad per se, I just feel that there are certain elements of the past that are, although charming, elements that should remain in the past.



Take Luthor for instance. In the older and current origins Lex lived in Smallville for a spell and met Clark when they were children.

In Man of Steel Lex is much older and was friends with Perry White when he was younger.

Now while both stories make sense to most of us, I prefer the Man of Steel version of Lex because to me the antagonism of that relationship was more compelling compared to 'well, they've known each other for years...'

I think the DC Universe post Crisis was the happy medium between super hero fantasy and grim and gritty uber nonsense. It was a good place to tell fantastic stories that delved into the heroic fantasy while not straying too far from reality.

[The Batman]

They were all Zod stories, period.

This isn't about content, it's about telling "yet another Zod story".

How about telling stories with characters that haven't been used a handful of times in the last decade, or creating new characters, or advancing the character's arcs instead of continue to circle the same drain?


If this isn't about content then it isn't about anything. Those may have all been Zod stories, but they were all very different Zod stories. Each a writer trying something different even if still using the Zod brand.

If this isn't about content, then all those stories (and many, many more) have something more basic in common: that they're all Superman stories. And then those same complaints about reusing the same character and circling the same drain should also apply.

[dupersuper]

Luthor stories involving him being a contemporary of Perry White are gone (bye bye, Jerry) Pocket Universe Zod is gone and Brainiac Dimension Zod is gone,


Call me hopelessly stubborn, but I'm holding on to these. I'll say Lex is Clarks older friend and Perrys younger, so we still get Jerry, and I see no reason at all to discard the Zods (other than DC's silly insistance that the latest versions of him is somehow weakened by a few alternate reality versions showing up first).


Really, because the last I heard Crisis on Infinite Earths was rebooted with Zero Hour which meant it only lasted ten years.

I'd hardly say Zero Hour was a reboot, it was a slight streamlining.



Bizarro: Original died, second retconned from being created by The Joker to being from the same as the original.


Actually, the 1st 2 died, and I don't think the 3rd need be retconned. I won't call you an idiot if you disagree though. :wink:


The multiverse has only been used in shity stories like Countdown and Final Crisis,
If the morons who make the comics can't be bothered to give a damn to keep their shit straight, why should I?

I don't personally care if people swear, but on a Superman board it might be polite to keep it pg...

[WorstThingUS]

Call me hopelessly stubborn, but I'm holding on to these. I'll say Lex is Clarks older friend and Perrys younger, so we still get Jerry, and I see no reason at all to discard the Zods (other than DC's silly insistance that the latest versions of him is somehow weakened by a few alternate reality versions showing up first).

You can, but it casts Alice in a poorer light to have her get knocked up by some kid. And it still remains to be seen if the pocket universes that had the first two Kryptonian Zods are gone. I think they are, but we don't know for sure. There's no reason at all Russian Zod has to go.

I'd hardly say Zero Hour was a reboot, it was a slight streamlining.

Kenny Braverman didn't exist before it and Joe Chill vanished with it. It was definitely a reboot and while not a COIE level reboot, enough so that every book got a "0" issue to explain changes.

I'd Actually, the 1st 2 died, and I don't think the 3rd need be retconned. I won't call you an idiot if you disagree though. :wink:

Heh. I took no offense. It was like being yelled at by a 12-year-old for telling him Smallville was actually taking things from Superman the Movie.


I don't personally care if people swear, but on a Superman board it might be polite to keep it pg...

Like I said, a 12-year-old. The constant use of the world "lame" was a hint to the maturity level. Wait. Was I just arguing with Superboy Prime!?!

[dupersuper]

Kenny Braverman didn't exist before it and Joe Chill vanished with it. It was definitely a reboot and while not a COIE level reboot, enough so that every book got a "0" issue to explain changes.


Still, those were minor retcons that didn't really change anything, and the Joe Chill thing didn't last.

[David Walton]

This is true I suppose, I take issue with the flying dog from another planet but not the flying man from another planet?

To be fair, I'm not anxious for the return of all the Super-pets. I did enjoy the Krypto cartoon, though!

Krypto and other silver age flourishes that are making their way back to the books aren't bad per se, I just feel that there are certain elements of the past that are, although charming, elements that should remain in the past.

I can see why you feel that way. Personally, after all the deconstruction and the maimings I welcome the more charming elements. I'd go so far as to say they're needed now more than ever. I don't think they should supplant modern sensibilities, but they can co-exist and form a new "bigger-tent" sensibility.

Take Luthor for instance. In the older and current origins Lex lived in Smallville for a spell and met Clark when they were children.

In Man of Steel Lex is much older and was friends with Perry White when he was younger.

Now while both stories make sense to most of us, I prefer the Man of Steel version of Lex because to me the antagonism of that relationship was more compelling compared to 'well, they've known each other for years...'

I like both versions fine, but I suppose if push comes to shove I do prefer the idea that Lex and Clark are contemporaries with a history.

I think the DC Universe post Crisis was the happy medium between super hero fantasy and grim and gritty uber nonsense. It was a good place to tell fantastic stories that delved into the heroic fantasy while not straying too far from reality.

I think we could say the same of the post FC era.

[Mat001]

To be fair, I'm not anxious for the return of all the Super-pets. I did enjoy the Krypto cartoon, though!

Well, only Krypto and Streaky are here. With the latter being just a normal cat that belongs to Kara. Comet is still fresh being an angel that was also a horse at times. And no one has touched on Beppo. So, I think just have two pets and one of them being super is enough.

[The Shadow]

Byrne for me!

Though if that wasn't an option i would have voted For All Seasons.

[WorstThingUS]

Still, those were minor retcons that didn't really change anything, and the Joe Chill thing didn't last.

It lasted ten years. As long as anything else. Then there was also the Hawkman retcon as well as a Legion retcon with Valor/Mon-El filling in for Superboy. It wasn't a major reboot for every character, but it was a reboot. Hal Jordan as Parallax literally restarted the DCU.

[dupersuper]

It lasted ten years. As long as anything else. Then there was also the Hawkman retcon as well as a Legion retcon with Valor/Mon-El filling in for Superboy. It wasn't a major reboot for every character, but it was a reboot. Hal Jordan as Parallax literally restarted the DCU.

Eh, I just don't see it as much of 1, especially compared to other crises.

[WorstThingUS]

Eh, I just don't see it as much of 1, especially compared to other crises.

Well, you could actually put it under the COIE heading moreso than an independent reboot considering its job was to repair all the holes in that one. It's like an "update" or a "patch."

[another_version]

I actually enjoyed Birthright more than Seasons, but then again I'm a Waid fanatic so....

[Alex Smith]

Hey, I enjoyed Birthright too, heh, I'm surprised there isn't a pro-birthright option in the poll. I liked For All Seasons more, but Birthright was still a pretty good read.