About Harem Leads [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Ghost

09-24-2009, 08:49 PM

I was in the Spider-Man forum and somehow the conversation shifted to unwanted harems. That got me started thinking about my favorite harem leads, and I realized that I really hate the stereotypical loser/normal guy that somehow attracts lots of girls (I am looking at you Tsukune).

Keitaro is the only one from this archetype I actually like. Mostly because he actually earns the respect of the girls around him over time and not overnight. Plus, he does deals with his relationship with the girls instead of being indecisive/stringing them along.

Also, picking out the girl he liked early on, confessing his feelings, and forming a relationship with her well before the end of the series.

Yeah, Keitaro was all kinds of awesome.

What are your thoughts? Which type of harem leads do you like or dislike and why? I am curious

Not sure I have any particular dislikes...

Possibly the Tenchi-type. You know, the kind that is indecisive to the point of actually appearing uninterested or indifferent, without having a good excuse. I prefer an honest pervert or a doormat looser to that, since I can at least relate to them.

yeoman

09-24-2009, 09:50 PM

The one that gets pegged as a harem lead that always makes me a bit mad is Hibiki Tokai of Vandread. The only women remotely interested in him included:

1. The xenophile that he eventually connected with.
2. The woman who only wants him for the status of being first from her world to bear the child of a man, and who had *no clue what making such actually entailed.* Her girlfriend was helping her in this quest.
3. The emotionless squad leader, who's romantic interest in him was pretty muted, even for that trope, and who seemed to be paired up with someone else in season 2.

No one else really shows much in the way of romantic interest in him.

Sorry... needed that off my chest...

Anyhow, ones I actually liked? Probably Sokka of the Southern Water Tribe who managed it by deserving it for the amount of crap he took in the rest of his life, and Allen Schezar, a man so pimp he was working his way through the royal family as each princess came of age.

There's also Fat Cobra, but that is but one facet of the awesome of Fat Cobra.

Yun Lao

09-25-2009, 01:48 AM

I'm not a big fan of typical harems, although there are some exceptions.

Tenchi - I'm more tolerate to him mainly since his series was the first harem I watched.

Girls Saurus DX - This is mainly due to the humor of the series, considering the main character is afraid of females in general (even his mother and sister,) thanks to the near-death incident involving the heroine. Also, chapter 49 shows us a nice little role-reversal when the main character gets pissed.

Onihime Vs - Unless the story uses an ass-pull, this one is unique since, save for one girl, the others are after him romantically so at the end of his one-year deal, he'll choose her to eat his heart and become the ruler of their realm

Now as for my favorite...Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei. To be honest, I doubt most label it as a harem, but it is, and unfortunately for Itoshiki, nearly all of them can go into Yandere territory at the drop of a hat (Chiri herself can supply enough Yandere for the rest of the female cast who don't hurt him...as well as the male cast.)

OverMaster

09-25-2009, 09:26 AM

The one that gets pegged as a harem lead that always makes me a bit mad is Hibiki Tokai of Vandread. The only women remotely interested in him included:

1. The xenophile that he eventually connected with.
2. The woman who only wants him for the status of being first from her world to bear the child of a man, and who had *no clue what making such actually entailed.* Her girlfriend was helping her in this quest.
3. The emotionless squad leader, who's romantic interest in him was pretty muted, even for that trope, and who seemed to be paired up with someone else in season 2.

No one else really shows much in the way of romantic interest in him.

Sorry... needed that off my chest...

It's the result of the Pseudo-Harem subgenre being confused with the pure Harem.

Vandread, Oh my Goddess and a few more *are* Pseudo-Harem. That is, the genre where the guy coexists with all the pretty girls, and the creators love to throw ship-teasing imagery and tiny suggestions. It's just the actual story doesn't follow with that actual line of harem plotting.

Hazard

09-25-2009, 07:01 PM

Now as for my favorite...Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei.

Your favorite harem is the one that is pretty much certain to end with Kafuka snapping and killing them all. :confused:

Kidding aside, yeah you got to feel sorry for Itoshiki, but it is so much fun.

Darth Joker

09-25-2009, 09:04 PM

Also, picking out the girl he liked early on, confessing his feelings, and forming a relationship with her well before the end of the series.

Yeah, Keitaro was all kinds of awesome.

I never really saw Ah My Goddess! as a harem anime for precisely this reason, as well as one other. That one other is that while Keitaro is surrounded by females, I only recall two having a significant romantic and/or sexual interest in him (Belldandy and Urd).

And as for Keitaro being "all kinds of awesome"... don't you think that's giving the guy way too much credit, Ghost? He's taking forever to get the romance beyond first base (if you can call it even that). Sure, the romance is pretty much established, but it's not going anywhere. It's like it's stuck in perpetual 1st or 2nd phase.

Keitaro looks good compared to most actual harem leads, but he's one slow operator...

Not sure I have any particular dislikes...

Possibly the Tenchi-type. You know, the kind that is indecisive to the point of actually appearing uninterested or indifferent, without having a good excuse.

Maybe he does have a good excuse. Maybe he's simply gay. :wink:

The one that gets pegged as a harem lead that always makes me a bit mad is Hibiki Tokai of Vandread. The only women remotely interested in him included:

1. The xenophile that he eventually connected with.
2. The woman who only wants him for the status of being first from her world to bear the child of a man, and who had *no clue what making such actually entailed.* Her girlfriend was helping her in this quest.
3. The emotionless squad leader, who's romantic interest in him was pretty muted, even for that trope, and who seemed to be paired up with someone else in season 2.

No one else really shows much in the way of romantic interest in him.

Sorry... needed that off my chest...

Good points. There's being a harem lead, and then there's simply being a male main protagonist with normal amounts of romantic conflict surrounding him. This is the latter.

As for harem leads I liked?

Negi handles it as well as can be reasonably expected. He has some pretty good excuses for not reciprocating much (the teacher/student relationship, and his age).

As for Lelouch in Code Geass... I always wanted him to go for Kallen, but I can see why he didn't. Romance was certainly not a major concern for him, and given the circumstances, it's hard to blame him.

yeoman

09-25-2009, 09:23 PM

I never really saw Ah My Goddess! as a harem anime for precisely this reason, as well as one other. That one other is that while Keitaro is surrounded by females, I only recall two having a significant romantic and/or sexual interest in him (Belldandy and Urd).

Sayoko goes after him a little, mostly just to piss off Belldandy, and I think Sora had a bit of a thing for him, but her real crush was Aoishima. So...

1) A Goddess.
2) Her sister who doesn't really seem intrested in him beyond that she flaunts her sexuality at *everyone,*
3) The Bitch who wants to use him.
4) The girl whose main crush is a total douchebag.
5) Maybe HIld. But that seems more like, again, using that to attack Belldandy and Urd in an emotional way.

Also? It's Keiichi. Keitaro is the lead of Love Hina.

Good points. There's being a harem lead, and then there's simply being a male main protagonist with normal amounts of romantic conflict surrounding him. This is the latter.

Well, Hibiki had slightly more than usual. But, no one other than Dita really last long.

Darth Joker

09-25-2009, 09:56 PM

Sayoko goes after him a little, mostly just to piss off Belldandy, and I think Sora had a bit of a thing for him, but her real crush was Aoishima. So...

1) A Goddess.
2) Her sister who doesn't really seem intrested in him beyond that she flaunts her sexuality at *everyone,*
3) The Bitch who wants to use him.
4) The girl whose main crush is a total douchebag.
5) Maybe HIld. But that seems more like, again, using that to attack Belldandy and Urd in an emotional way.

Also? It's Keiichi. Keitaro is the lead of Love Hina.

... You mean that somebody thinks that the lead of Love Hina is all kinds of awesome? :eek:

I wasn't aware that being a complete and utter doormat that tolerates extreme physical abuse for no good reason makes one all kinds of awesome...

Sorry for the mix-up, but it's because while I can at least understand Keiichi being seen in a very positive light, I really can't understand that for Keitaro...

mgs

09-25-2009, 10:28 PM

oh you kids and your new 'terms'!

That got me started thinking about my favorite harem leads, and I realized that I really hate the stereotypical loser/normal guy that somehow attracts lots of girls (I am looking at you Tsukune).

ya see, this is why some people think english is confusing. You're not even using the word correctly. The word, 'harem' doesn't refer to the singular person (usually male), it refers to the 'collection' of females.

Harem Lead? That's just an odd, stupid way of saying a lead (alpha) male, or 'stud'.

Rod G

09-25-2009, 11:42 PM

Going on a tangent here . . .

I'm surprised you didn't mention the female leads of reverse harems series (Miaka,Tohru,etc.) . . .

. . . what about them?

Nik Hasta

09-26-2009, 07:17 AM

... You mean that somebody thinks that the lead of Love Hina is all kinds of awesome? :eek:

I wasn't aware that being a complete and utter doormat that tolerates extreme physical abuse for no good reason makes one all kinds of awesome...

Sorry for the mix-up, but it's because while I can at least understand Keiichi being seen in a very positive light, I really can't understand that for Keitaro...

Sorry Joker but have you actually read Love Hina at all?

Because this statement implies to me that you've read maybe the first volume only and judged the rest of the series based on that.

Keitaro is awesome. If you'd read the series you'd see that.

He's not a doormat, or rather he starts as one but he grows out of it quickly, he doesn't string any of the other girls along, he's a kind and decent man who will go to insane lengths to help the people he cares about and he ends up marrying Naru and living happily ever after as successful archeologist.

I fail to see how he isn't awesome. Yes, he's flawed, he's sometimes petty, short-tempered, clumsy and prone to badly misjudging situations. God forbid that he should have the audacity to be a three-dimensional character. And yes, he gets hit a lot but again that sort of thing becomes less prominent as the series continues.

Ghost

09-26-2009, 07:43 AM

... You mean that somebody thinks that the lead of Love Hina is all kinds of awesome? :eek:

How much of the manga did you read, again?

I wasn't aware that being a complete and utter doormat that tolerates extreme physical abuse for no good reason makes one all kinds of awesome...

You'd be surprised.

Really, I could try to explain in great detail what a great guy Keitaro is. But you know, I recall we've been through this a couple of times before, DJ, and frankly, if you haven't listened by now I doubt you ever will.

It's too bad; I really thought a man like you, who is one of the few to share my opinion that Tatewaki Kuno is awesome, would have been able to appreciate Love Hina.

I wash my hands of this issue. Think whatever you like.

Darth Joker

09-26-2009, 08:14 AM

Sorry Joker but have you actually read Love Hina at all?

Read the 1st Volume. Watched about a dozen episodes of the anime before I got tired of the excessive amounts of slapstick comedy.

The 1st Volume showed some differences from the anime for me, but Keitaro was still taking the abuse. I didn't see much reason to think that the manga would be significantly different from the anime in this respect, so I dropped it.

Because this statement implies to me that you've read maybe the first volume only and judged the rest of the series based on that.

Or maybe I simply think that guys who take unwarranted physical abuse with out standing up for themselves aren't "all kinds of awesome" period.

Keitaro is awesome.

That's just your opinion, Nik.

I think that Haruhi Suzumiya is an awesome character. Yeoman thinks she's a terrible sociopath. I don't get upset with Yeoman over that because his threshold for Haruhi's more questionable activities is lower than mine is. That's fine - he has a right to his take on the character, and I have a right to mine.

Keitaro is no different. I simply have a lower threshold for the way he's willing to take abuse than you and Ghost do. Guys that are "all kinds of awesome" simply don't put up with that crap, unless they're in an universe where everybody does (i.e. Ranma 1/2 - incidentally, Ghost, this is why I don't mind Kuno putting up with it).

He's not a doormat, or rather he starts as one but he grows out of it quickly, he doesn't string any of the other girls along, he's a kind and decent man who will go to insane lengths to help the people he cares about and he ends up marrying Naru and living happily ever after as successful archeologist.

I fail to see how he isn't awesome.

"Awesome" is perhaps the most overused word on the internet. Awesome means awe-inspiring. What inspires outright awe out of what you wrote above?

What you wrote above doesn't make Keitaro awe-inspiring; it simply makes him a nice guy. Good for him in that regard.

However, a truly awesome guy... like, say, Kamina... wouldn't put up with the crap that Keitaro does. That's part of what makes Kamina awe-inspiring... a very small part, but a part nonetheless.

Yes, he's flawed, he's sometimes petty, short-tempered, clumsy and prone to badly misjudging situations. God forbid that he should have the audacity to be a three-dimensional character. And yes, he gets hit a lot but again that sort of thing becomes less prominent as the series continues.

In one anime episode, he got punched four times. Four times in one freakin' episode. And not once did he protest it.

I don't mind his other flaws.

How much of the manga did you read, again?

You'd be surprised.

Really, I could try to explain in great detail what a great guy Keitaro is. But you know, I recall we've been through this a couple of times before, DJ, and frankly, if you haven't listened by now I doubt you ever will.

It's too bad; I really thought a man like you, who is one of the few to share my opinion that Tatewaki Kuno is awesome, would have been able to appreciate Love Hina.

The difference between Ranma 1/2 and Love Hina! is that in Ranma 1/2 the slapstick comedy is directed all over the place; virtually nobody is spared completely, and no one character is the constant butt of all the slapstick comedy. So, I take the slapstick comedy as an aspect of the fictional universe itself, rather than a reflection of a particular character's willingness to be physically abused to excessive degrees.

If you like Keitaro, fine. He definitely has his good points.

But the word "awesome" implies something a bit more than simply likable, imo. It means a guy that you could look up to and be impressed by in some important way. And "all kinds of awesome"... well, that means a guy that's so awesome that he never fails to impress.

For me, it's very hard to "never fail to be impressed" by a guy who accepts physical abuse with out protest or counter-punch.

I sincerely worry a bit about people who would call Keitaro "all kinds of awesome". It makes me think that such a person could get into a real life relationship with a girl, and let her abuse him/have him thoroughly whipped because "Keitaro is awesome, and he put up with it, so why shouldn't I?".

I like you and Nik. I'd hate to think of you guys in relationships with abusive women because Keitaro makes you think it's no big deal. :(

Hazard

09-26-2009, 09:00 AM

oh you kids and your new 'terms'!

ya see, this is why some people think english is confusing. You're not even using the word correctly. The word, 'harem' doesn't refer to the singular person (usually male), it refers to the 'collection' of females.

Harem Lead? That's just an odd, stupid way of saying a lead (alpha) male, or 'stud'.

Thanks, I wasn't sure what the correct spelling for harem was. However, I am using harem lead instead of what you suggested because leading male could refer to any other type of anime, plus some harem leads are female.

Also Darth Joker, I once thought the same thing as you having never read the manga. Trust me, the anime does not do Love Hina justice. To give you an idea, by the last three volumes Keitaro can actually hold his own against Motoko in a fight and actually win in some cases.

Nik Hasta

09-26-2009, 09:02 AM

Read the 1st Volume. Watched about a dozen episodes of the anime before I got tired of the excessive amounts of slapstick comedy.

The 1st Volume showed some differences from the anime for me, but Keitaro was still taking the abuse. I didn't see much reason to think that the manga would be significantly different from the anime in this respect, so I dropped it.

So you are in fact, judging the entire series based on one book and an anime series version that is absolutely terrible and majorly upped the violence content because the show needed filler.

Good to know.

Or maybe I simply think that guys who take unwarranted physical abuse with out standing up for themselves aren't "all kinds of awesome" period.

Again, Keitaro doesn't just take it. He stands up for himself all the time. If you'd actually read the series then you'd know this.

That's just your opinion, Nik.

I'm aware of that. Hear me trumpet my opinion from the rooftops and defend it when someone questions it, such are my rights as an individual.

Keitaro is no different. I simply have a lower threshold for the way he's willing to take abuse than you and Ghost do. Guys that are "all kinds of awesome" simply don't put up with that crap, unless they're in an universe where everybody does (i.e. Ranma 1/2 - incidentally, Ghost, this is why I don't mind Kuno putting up with it).

Again, this assumption is based on your own opinions derived from very little knowledge of the actual content of the manga.

"Awesome" is perhaps the most overused word on the internet. Awesome means awe-inspiring. What inspires outright awe out of what you wrote above?

Surprisingly enough, I am aware of the meaning of the word "Awesome," and what about Keitaro inspires awe in me? Allow me to clarify.

Keitaro isn't a strong man, he isn't particularly smart, he's mostly a coward, nebbish, shy, clumsy, unsuccessful and a loner. He is not, at the start of the series, something anyone would aspire to be.

Despite this though, he rises above these qualities. The story documents his journey from the aforementioned loser to a man who is confident in himself, knows what he wants from life, surrounded by friends who love him and care about him and he himself is willing to go to outright insane lengths to help in any way he can.

That inspires awe in me. I look at Keitaro and I don't see an everyman, I see something less than that, someone below average, and I see him grow and change and become the maximum of his potential. A miserable loner transformed into the centre of one of the closest knit circles of friends I have come across in fiction. But further still he doesn't fall into the trap that some characters do of losing all their flaws and becoming perfect. Keitaro is still clumsy, he's still occasionally pretty stupid but by the end of the story he has the confidence to stand up and be happy in who he is, flaws and all.

His insane devotion to his friends, though they are more akin his family, his love for his partner that leads him to accept her for who she is neurosis and all, his successful completion of his journey despite the amount of crap that life has dumped on him. These are the things that inspire awe in me and I take a certain amount of offence at someone who has admitted that he has no idea what he's taking about claiming that I am wrong in this assertion.

Is that good enough for you?

In one anime episode, he got punched four times. Four times in one freakin' episode. And not once did he protest it.

Again, the anime majorly ups the violence so this is a moot point.

I sincerely worry a bit about people who would call Keitaro "all kinds of awesome". It makes me think that such a person could get into a real life relationship with a girl, and let her abuse him/have him thoroughly whipped because "Keitaro is awesome, and he put up with it, so why shouldn't I?".

I like you and Nik. I'd hate to think of you guys in relationships with abusive women because Keitaro makes you think it's no big deal. :(

Your concern is quite unwarrented. None of my relationships have been abusive and yet I've still tried to emulate Keitaro to a certain degree while in them.

Darth Joker

09-26-2009, 09:57 AM

So you are in fact, judging the entire series based on one book and an anime series version that is absolutely terrible and majorly upped the violence content because the show needed filler.

Good to know.

Believe it or not, but bad first impressions matter in life. The manga gave me the same bad first impression as the anime did. That being said, when I'm talking about Keitaro, I'm primarily talking about his anime self.

Again, Keitaro doesn't just take it. He stands up for himself all the time. If you'd actually read the series then you'd know this.

He's not standing up for himself in the beginning, hence causing a very bad first impression.

I'm aware of that. Hear me trumpet my opinion from the rooftops and defend it when someone questions it, such are my rights as an individual.

And I have the same right as an individual to not view a character the way that you do.

Plus... first and foremost, I'm an anime fan. Manga is very much secondary to me. About the only time I read a manga is to compare it to an anime. I just have little interest in manga in general; mainly due to how I like color and manga is all black-and-white typically.

Look, the anime versions of characters do matter. They're the only versions that a lot of people are familiar with. When I talk about a character, I'm almost always talking about the anime version.

This is the anime & manga board... it's not just manga.

Surprisingly enough, I am aware of the meaning of the word "Awesome," and what about Keitaro inspires awe in me? Allow me to clarify.

Keitaro isn't a strong man, he isn't particularly smart, he's mostly a coward, nebbish, shy, clumsy, unsuccessful and a loner. He is not, at the start of the series, something anyone would aspire to be.

Despite this though, he rises above these qualities. The story documents his journey from the aforementioned loser to a man who is confident in himself, knows what he wants from life, surrounded by friends who love him and care about him and he himself is willing to go to outright insane lengths to help in any way he can.

That inspires awe in me. I look at Keitaro and I don't see an everyman, I see something less than that, someone below average, and I see him grow and change and become the maximum of his potential. A miserable loner transformed into the centre of one of the closest knit circles of friends I have come across in fiction. But further still he doesn't fall into the trap that some characters do of losing all their flaws and becoming perfect. Keitaro is still clumsy, he's still occasionally pretty stupid but by the end of the story he has the confidence to stand up and be happy in who he is, flaws and all.

His insane devotion to his friends, though they are more akin his family, his love for his partner that leads him to accept her for who she is neurosis and all, his successful completion of his journey despite the amount of crap that life has dumped on him. These are the things that inspire awe in me and I take a certain amount of offence at someone who has admitted that he has no idea what he's taking about claiming that I am wrong in this assertion.

I never admitted I have 'no idea' what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the anime character, which I do know a lot about.

That being said, Naru's neurosis (if it hasn't improved considerably by the end of the manga) should be treated. Seriously. It's not something that should simply be tolerated; it's a dangerous anger management problem. It's a major psychological problem that needs to be addressed. I don't see strength in putting up with that - I see weakness. I see a man unwilling to tell a loved one "Look, this is extreme and needs to be fixed. You need to try to change here."

Even freakin' Kyon stands up to Haruhi's shenanigans from time-to-time, and for precisely this sort of reason... and Haruhi doesn't actually physically abuse Kyon. It's not like this is completely unheard of in anime/manga; there are characters that in fact stand up to the sort of crap that Naru tries to pull, and helps the people they love become better people because of it.

What impresses me is a character like Sakai Yuji that doesn't just accept terrible self-harmful flaws in the woman he loves, but rather tries to help her become more of a well-rounded human being. In Yuji's case, he successfully managed to get Shana to view herself as more than just a flame haze. He helped her overcome that major psychological barrier.

Is that good enough for you?

You very thoroughly explained why you see Keitaro in a good light.

However, presuming that your explanation is completely accurate... I still very much dislike how he's just letting Naru off with it. He shouldn't. For her own sake, and most certainly for those poor souls that she goes off on.

Again, the anime majorly ups the violence so this is a moot point.

... What makes you think that we're only talking about manga here? It's quite legitimate to talk about the anime version of a character as well.

Ghost

09-26-2009, 10:16 AM

I think that Haruhi Suzumiya is an awesome character. Yeoman thinks she's a terrible sociopath. I don't get upset with Yeoman over that because his threshold for Haruhi's more questionable activities is lower than mine is. That's fine - he has a right to his take on the character, and I have a right to mine.

Uh-huh. Fair enough.

As for me, I've seen a total of one episode of TMoHS. Aside from that, all my knowledge concerning the show is what I've managed to pick up from conversations around the forum. And you know what my opinion of her is?

Nothing. I have no opinion on Haruhi Suzumiya.

The reason I have no opinion is because I don't know the character. I can't get to know her from just a glancing look, I can't judge her from a single episode. I simply don't have the right to have an opinion about her.

Do you understand what I'm getting at here? You admit you haven't read the manga past the first volume, and that you're basing your entire argument on first impressions. Nik and I have read the entire thing. Yes, it's just our opinions. But our opinions are based on, you know, our actual understanding of the character.

But the word "awesome" implies something a bit more than simply likable, imo. It means a guy that you could look up to and be impressed by in some important way. And "all kinds of awesome"... well, that means a guy that's so awesome that he never fails to impress.

For me, it's very hard to "never fail to be impressed" by a guy who accepts physical abuse with out protest or counter-punch.

Look, all I'm saying is this: there are two fictional characters I've genuinely aspired to become more similar to over the last decade or so. One of them is Tatewaki Kuno. The other is Keitaro Urashima.

I don't know what else to say. You obviously don't trust my judgment at all.

I'm so tired of this.

I sincerely worry a bit about people who would call Keitaro "all kinds of awesome". It makes me think that such a person could get into a real life relationship with a girl, and let her abuse him/have him thoroughly whipped because "Keitaro is awesome, and he put up with it, so why shouldn't I?".

I like you and Nik. I'd hate to think of you guys in relationships with abusive women because Keitaro makes you think it's no big deal. :(

Your concern is noted, but unnecessary. And, frankly, a bit insulting.

I'm not stupid, you know. I can actually tell the difference between exaggerated cartoon violence and real life abuse.

Ghost

09-26-2009, 10:50 AM

Believe it or not, but bad first impressions matter in life. The manga gave me the same bad first impression as the anime did. That being said, when I'm talking about Keitaro, I'm primarily talking about his anime self.

He's not standing up for himself in the beginning, hence causing a very bad first impression.

Now you're just being stubborn.

"I had a bad first impression, so I definitely can't find the character likable" isn't a reasonable argument.

That being said, Naru's neurosis (if it hasn't improved considerably by the end of the manga)

It did.

... What makes you think that we're only talking about manga here? It's quite legitimate to talk about the anime version of a character as well.

No, it's not. Because the thing that started this whole discussion was you reacting to my comment about Keitaro.

And if you have ever listened to me at all, you should know by now that I usually talk about manga, and that I never talk about the Love Hina anime. And even if you missed that, you should have picked up on it once I asked how much of it you've read.

Remember that huge argument we had about Akane Tendo, which turned out to be completely redundant because we were talking about two different Akane Tendos? Did we learn nothing from that?

Point is, you can't discuss the anime while we discuss the manga and think it's still going to make sense. That's like me logging into the Hulk forum and going: "Oh, come on! I've seen that show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incredible_Hulk_(TV_series)) and he didn't seem that strong."

sun tzu

09-26-2009, 10:56 AM

As someone who did read all of Love Hina (and enjoyed it enough to plow through, despite its faults)...My opinion is actually pretty close to Darth Joker's.
Yes, Keitaro got better after a while. Yes, so did Naru.
Even so, I still get angry thinking about how most of the girls (with rare exceptions) treated Keitaro for a very large part of the story. For much of the manga, I wanted to beat the ever-loving crap out of most of the cast. That they always got away with it only made things worse. :mad:

...My favorite harem lead? I'm...guessing Harui.
Not Suzumiya. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OuranHighSchoolHostClub)

Bakasama

09-26-2009, 11:43 AM

I've always wondered if this harem anime is some kind of wish fulfillment fantasy. I can certainly see the appeal but anyone who dealt with real women has to deal with jealous rage and cattiness.

Hazard

09-26-2009, 11:54 AM

I've always wondered if this harem anime is some kind of wish fulfillment fantasy. I can certainly see the appeal but anyone who dealt with real women has to deal with jealous rage and cattiness.

At its worst yeah that is what harem anime/manga is; lots of fan service, bland characters, and guys that would never be able to have a real relationship. At its best it can be both funny and sad, and presents us with very emotionally deep and awesome characters that grow and mature as we follow their journey.

Darth Joker

09-26-2009, 02:36 PM

Ghost and Nik - You took this a bit more personally than I expected. I never meant to offend.

I can certainly understand somebody finding Keitaro to be a nice guy, a likable character with some admirable qualities, and perhaps... wanting to emulate his loyalty to his friends (there's no question that he's very loyal), and his... desire for them to be happy. Even I would say that he's a nice guy with a mostly likable personality.

However, I was pretty taken aback at the word awesome being applied to him, and... I had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to that, I'll admit.

When I think 'awesome' I think of people who kick ass, who make things happen, who have bold charismatic personalities, who don't take crap with out standing up for themselves/others... people like Batman, Wolverine, Superman, Goku, Ichigo Kurosaki, Nanoha Takamachi, Shana, Kamina, Simon, etc... and even Tatewaki Kuno to a limited extent (he's a great fighter albeit usually outmatched, he doesn't give up easily, he has a lot of charisma, etc...).

If Keitaro is awesome to you, fine, but I doubt he'll ever be that to me. That being said, after I get through some of the anime watching I have to do, I might delve back into the Love Hina! manga, simply in the interest of fairness. If so, I'll try to keep an open mind while I do so, and key in on Keitaro in particular. I suspect that I'll end up feeling like Sun Tzu does, but you never know. :)

Ghost

09-26-2009, 04:35 PM

Okay, enough of this. Nik, DJ, I'm calling Cheer The Hell Up on this whole Love Hina discussion:

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2031/smiledammitpostersn1.jpg

Let's turn the seriousness down a notch, shall we?

As someone who did read all of Love Hina (and enjoyed it enough to plow through, despite its faults)...My opinion is actually pretty close to Darth Joker's.

Yeah, but you've read it. We can't ask more of you then that.

I believe I speak for Nik as well when I say that all we want is that you give the damn manga a fair chance before publicly disapproving of our choice of personal heroes.

I've always wondered if this harem anime is some kind of wish fulfillment fantasy.

*gasp* You think!? :eek: :tongue:

Ghost and Nik - You took this a bit more personally than I expected. I never meant to offend.

I can certainly understand somebody finding Keitaro to be a nice guy, a likable character with some admirable qualities, and perhaps... wanting to emulate his loyalty to his friends (there's no question that he's very loyal), and his... desire for them to be happy. Even I would say that he's a nice guy with a mostly likable personality.

However, I was pretty taken aback at the word awesome being applied to him, and... I had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to that, I'll admit.

When I think 'awesome' I think of people who kick ass, who make things happen, who have bold charismatic personalities, who don't take crap with out standing up for themselves/others... people like Batman, Wolverine, Superman, Goku, Ichigo Kurosaki, Nanoha Takamachi, Shana, Kamina, Simon, etc... and even Tatewaki Kuno to a limited extent (he's a great fighter albeit usually outmatched, he doesn't give up easily, he has a lot of charisma, etc...).

I'm a very literal person. It kinda comes with the Asperger Syndrome.

Trust me when I tell you that when I refer to a character as "awesome", you can be pretty sure that characters has indeed inspired awe in me at some point.

Oh, and this:

(he's a great fighter albeit usually outmatched, he doesn't give up easily, he has a lot of charisma, etc...).

This would actually be a pretty fitting description of Keitaro as well. Just saying.

If Keitaro is awesome to you, fine, but I doubt he'll ever be that to me. That being said, after I get through some of the anime watching I have to do, I might delve back into the Love Hina! manga, simply in the interest of fairness. If so, I'll try to keep an open mind while I do so, and key in on Keitaro in particular. I suspect that I'll end up feeling like Sun Tzu does, but you never know. :)

Success!

*does victory dance*

OverMaster

09-27-2009, 07:48 AM

At its worst yeah that is what harem anime/manga is; lots of fan service, bland characters, and guys that would never be able to have a real relationship.

And *girls* who would never be able to have a real relationship either, as well.

Seriously, as if a real-life Naru could ever find a real-life Keitaro to stand her.

As someone who did read all of Love Hina (and enjoyed it enough to plow through, despite its faults)...My opinion is actually pretty close to Darth Joker's.
Yes, Keitaro got better after a while. Yes, so did Naru.
Even so, I still get angry thinking about how most of the girls (with rare exceptions) treated Keitaro for a very large part of the story. For much of the manga, I wanted to beat the ever-loving crap out of most of the cast. That they always got away with it only made things worse.

Agreed. Suu I didn't mind since she ever mistreated Keitaro with any actual malice/despise, and Motoko was otherwise awesome enough to overlook her sentimental shortcomings. The rest of them, though? Pheh. I only like Mutsumi. And before you say 'Shinobu'... no, I don't like her character type either. There's something kinda creepy about the whole Loliconesque submissive perfect wife archetype Japanese are so crazy about.

OverMaster

09-27-2009, 08:06 AM

My favorite harem male protagonists:

- Otaru (Saber Marionette J): one of the few examples of this genre who actually grows leaps and bounds beyond his kinda obtuse and selfish starting self into a complex, perseverant, completely unselfish man by the final series' end. And without turning into an overpowered, GAR-forced-fed standard shonen Boring Invincible Hero like so many others. Keep in mind this only applies to the anime version, which for a change is so much better than the manga.

- Akito (Martian Succesor Nadesico): The only real shame with him is he had no working dynamics/chemistry with Yurika, yet the plot pushed them into it against all rhyme and reason. Apart, they're both awesome, but putting the together cheapens them both. Yurika, especially, should have been allowed to grwo up beyond her childish crush.

- Negi (Negima): Negi is all kinds of awesome. The end.

- Itoshiki (Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei): Actually, he is an excellent *comedy* protagonist, but a rather bad (and that's an understatement) *romantic* protagonist, but with he kind of series he is at, and the kind of misfits surrounding him, can you blame him?

- Kaoru (Ai Yori Aoshi): Yes, I absolutely HATE the choice he made (Aoi 'Domestic Prop' Sakuraba), but I give the guy major props for sticking to his choice from beginning to end with such determination, and also for refsuing to be his wretched family's tool as soon as he could.

Honorable mentions:

- Tate (Mai HiME manga): While the anime Tate was such a collection of headbangers, I actually like his harem-pumped manga self. Much less of a cypher, but more determinated and overall more of an owner of his own fate instead of just letting life to drag him around by the balls.

- Lelouch (Code Geass): The only reason he ranks below the Top Five is because I see him as an action drama protagonist, and not much of a romantical figure a all.

- Makoto (El Hazard): Actually, I don't like his choice either (a woman who didn't have any personality before you gave her one. Mmm-hmmm. Okay). And he really should see Jinnai for the creep he is. But other than that, he's an okay man and I congratulate him for not being an undecisive moron.

- Keiichi (Oh my Goddess): Actually, as I noted before, he isn't even Harem but Pseudo-Harem, and he has lost tons of points because his romance actually has DEVOLVED to ridiculous degrees, instead of evolving. But that's Belldandy's fault as well, and I still like him for some reason.

You better comment, because I didn't type all that just to be ignored! :tongue:

Ghost

09-27-2009, 09:52 AM

Agreed. Suu I didn't mind since she ever mistreated Keitaro with any actual malice/despise, and Motoko was otherwise awesome enough to overlook her sentimental shortcomings. The rest of them, though? Pheh. I only like Mutsumi. And before you say 'Shinobu'... no, I don't like her character type either. There's something kinda creepy about the whole Loliconesque submissive perfect wife archetype Japanese are so crazy about.

What about Sarah-chan?

Why do you haet Sarah-chan!? oO

OverMaster

09-27-2009, 09:56 AM

What about Sarah-chan?

Why do you haet Sarah-chan!? oO

... I'd post you a list, but'd need three hours I don't have right now... :tongue:

Let's just say she strikes me as an insufferable brat... and this is coming from a guy who actualy kinda likes ChibiUsa.

Ghost

09-27-2009, 10:13 AM

... I'd post you a list, but'd need three hours I don't have right now... :tongue:

Let's just say she strikes me as an insufferable brat... and this is coming from a guy who actualy kinda likes ChibiUsa.

But she's cute! And... er....

...Okay, I got nuthin'.

sun tzu

09-27-2009, 11:51 AM

And *girls* who would never be able to have a real relationship either, as well.

Seriously, as if a real-life Naru could ever find a real-life Keitaro to stand her.

Agreed. Suu I didn't mind since she ever mistreated Keitaro with any actual malice/despise, and Motoko was otherwise awesome enough to overlook her sentimental shortcomings. The rest of them, though? Pheh. I only like Mutsumi. And before you say 'Shinobu'... no, I don't like her character type either. There's something kinda creepy about the whole Loliconesque submissive perfect wife archetype Japanese are so crazy about.

Shinobu I actually liked, on account that, well, she was one of the few people who were genuinely nice to Keitaro (and I'm not going to hold it against her if she's crushing on someone older than her. Now, if Keitaro was crushing on her, that would creep me out).
Suu and Motoko, though? Hated them as much as Naru.

OverMaster

09-27-2009, 11:56 AM

Suu and Motoko, though? Hated them as much as Naru.

Motoko offered cool fight scenes and was a nice butt of the joke when the case called for it. Also, her upbringing at least gave her more of an excuse than Naru.

Suu grew on me after my first re-reading. The fact she's basically the lovechild of Ed from Cowboy Bebop and Hakase from Negima helps.

HectorP

09-27-2009, 02:13 PM

Shinobu I actually liked, on account that, well, she was one of the few people who were genuinely nice to Keitaro (and I'm not going to hold it against her if she's crushing on someone older than her. Now, if Keitaro was crushing on her, that would creep me out).
Suu and Motoko, though? Hated them as much as Naru.

Motoko had family issues but she grew out of them and her sister was crazy awesome. Motoko became one of my favorite characters by the end, I liked her more than Narusegawa. And Suu's mad scientist jokes were better to me than Naru's abusive antics.

Ghost

09-27-2009, 02:16 PM

Motoko had family issues but she grew out of them and her sister was crazy awesome. Motoko became one of my favorite characters by the end, I liked her more than Narusegawa. And Suu's mad scientist jokes were better to me than Naru's abusive antics.

Motoko is pretty much my favourite. Not that I disliked any one them.

HectorP

09-27-2009, 02:19 PM

And now I remembered Motoko's forays into writing. :biggrin:

Ghost

09-27-2009, 02:39 PM

And now I remembered Motoko's forays into writing. :biggrin:

Yeah, that pretty much sealed the deal for me. Between her swordsmanship and her writing, she had my own main interests covered.

OzBat!

09-27-2009, 11:46 PM

What, no mention of Ranma? How many fiances did that guy/girl end up with before the end of the series, anywho? :biggrin:

Hazard

09-28-2009, 05:13 AM

What, no mention of Ranma? How many fiances did that guy/girl end up with before the end of the series, anywho? :biggrin:

That's more because while the girls were there, they never really felt like serious competition. Plus, Ranma while a good action protagonist is sadly lacking when it comes to dealing with his own feelings. In Love Hina, even though we all knew Keitaro was going to end up with Naru, there were lots of moments that had us cheering for girls like Motoko and Mutsumi.

EDIT: 100 Posts Yeah!

Ghost

09-28-2009, 07:40 AM

What, no mention of Ranma? How many fiances did that guy/girl end up with before the end of the series, anywho? :biggrin:

He actually only had four, and Kodachi was more of a stalker then an official fiancé. As harems go, Ranma was never that impressive.

Dark Soul # 7

09-28-2009, 08:10 AM

As far as harem leads go I'd have to say that Ikuto from Nagasarete Airantou.

He's not a loser per se. It's just that when he comes to the island his skills and physical abilities are lower than the regular island-residents, and especially when compared to the other main characters. But through his hard work and willingness he gets closer to the lot of them.

When it comes the girls themselves the reason why he doesn't just get with them is because he's had a rather conservative upbringing which clashes with the islanders' more relaxed way of life. And since he's the first human male that most of them have ever seen not everybody's reason for getting with him is entirely honourable.

Still, he becomes friends with the lot of them, unfortunately for them it is to the point where doesn't really think of them much as girlfriends, and actually earns their affection on top of their initial feelings.

So yeah. Ikuto's cool.

yeoman

09-28-2009, 10:33 AM

He actually only had four, and Kodachi was more of a stalker then an official fiancé. As harems go, Ranma was never that impressive.

It also wasn't much of a Harem series. The romance was secondary, there wern't that many of them (and far less in the manga), and of the main four no one but Akane even had a chance. Kodachi was crazy, Shampoo was smothering and Ukyo he was never going to see as anything but a guy friend.

Ghost

09-28-2009, 01:25 PM

I nearly forgot another one of my favorites: Hayate the Combat Butler.

It's notable because the main girl thinks she's in a relationship with the hero, while he's completely oblivious himself.

It's also interesting because the harem effect seems to be kinda spilling over to secondary character Wataru, who's starting to establish a harem of his own.

It also wasn't much of a Harem series. The romance was secondary, there wern't that many of them (and far less in the manga),

I'd call it a harem manga, just a harem manga with a strong focus on martial arts. Ranma's relationship with the girls still provided a majority of the plot one way or another, and Nerima-style romance typically involved a lot of fighting.

and of the main four no one but Akane even had a chance. Kodachi was crazy, Shampoo was smothering and Ukyo he was never going to see as anything but a guy friend.

Shampoo and Ukyo did kinda have a shot, though, they just had the wrong approach. The Reversal Jewel storyline illustrated pretty clearly that Ranma likes their attention, but that he prefers girls who plays hard to get.

Anyway, how often do we actually see harem stories where all the girls appear to have equal chances of winning?

yeoman

09-28-2009, 02:24 PM

Shampoo and Ukyo did kinda have a shot, though, they just had the wrong approach. The Reversal Jewel storyline illustrated pretty clearly that Ranma likes their attention, but that he prefers girls who plays hard to get.

He likes attention because he's an ego-maniac. Shampoo has nothign becuase if he goes with her he's stuck in the amazon village. And Ukyo, on a subconsious level he thinks of not only as just a good friend, but he thinks of her as a guy.

Darth Joker

09-29-2009, 06:17 PM

My favorite harem male protagonists:

- Otaru (Saber Marionette J): one of the few examples of this genre who actually grows leaps and bounds beyond his kinda obtuse and selfish starting self into a complex, perseverant, completely unselfish man by the final series' end.

- Negi (Negima): Negi is all kinds of awesome. The end.

- Itoshiki (Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei): Actually, he is an excellent *comedy* protagonist, but a rather bad (and that's an understatement) *romantic* protagonist, but with he kind of series he is at, and the kind of misfits surrounding him, can you blame him?

Good picks. I completely agree with you on what I'm quoting above.

- Tate (Mai HiME manga): While the anime Tate was such a collection of headbangers, I actually like his harem-pumped manga self. Much less of a cypher, but more determinated and overall more of an owner of his own fate instead of just letting life to drag him around by the balls.

I can't speak to the Mai HiME manga, but the Mai HiME anime has too many lesbians/possible lesbians for Tate to count as a harem lead, imo. I never had much of a problem with Tate in the anime, however; not that I can remember at least.

- Lelouch (Code Geass): The only reason he ranks below the Top Five is because I see him as an action drama protagonist, and not much of a romantical figure a all.

I agree that he's an action drama protagonist. And, given how Code Geass ended, romance was never significant to Lelouch at all, really.

- Makoto (El Hazard): Actually, I don't like his choice either (a woman who didn't have any personality before you gave her one. Mmm-hmmm. Okay).

Yes, but, due to the time loop nature of El Hazard the Magnificent World, she had a personality when he met her first. Also, Ifurita is the most physically attractive of his potential suitors, imo. And then there's the benefits that come with having someone as powerful as her as your girlfriend. :wink:

And he really should see Jinnai for the creep he is.

If a great, brilliant, relentless villain wanted me dead, I'd very much want to reform him as well. :wink:

- Keiichi (Oh my Goddess): Actually, as I noted before, he isn't even Harem but Pseudo-Harem, and he has lost tons of points because his romance actually has DEVOLVED to ridiculous degrees, instead of evolving. But that's Belldandy's fault as well, and I still like him for some reason.

You better comment, because I didn't type all that just to be ignored! :tongue:

Good points.

Of the picks you made that I recognized, I agreed with you on them all. Actually, the only thing I disagreed with you on is Jinnai, but you probably saw that coming; as a recent fanfic of mine shows, all he needs is the right woman to set him straight. :biggrin:

On the topic of Ranma 1/2 - one thing that I really like about Ranma is that it's a dual harem: the main male protagonist and the main female protagonist each have their own harem, and are members of one another's harem. Akane has guys after her as much as Ranma has girls after him.

This allows for so many different permutations of pairings. It's a shipper's dream... or nightmare, lol.