Is Gurren Lagann an upbeat anime?

[Darth Joker]

On another board, I ran into somebody that argued, much to my shock, that Gurren Lagann is not an upbeat anime; he said that Gurren Lagann simply pretends to be upbeat. He said that Gurren Lagann is idealistic, but not upbeat; he argued that the two are very different.

Well, I personally think that Gurren Lagann is definitely upbeat, and for many reasons. One reason being that all of the protagonist cast (except Rossiu) are upbeat... and the one guy who wasn't upbeat was basically proven wrong for not being that way, imo.

However... what do my fellow anime fans here on CBR think? Is Gurren Lagann an upbeat anime?

I'm curious to see if my view of the anime is the common one (as I thought) or not.

[Sound Silence]

Depends on your definition of "upbeat".

I would define upbeat as having a more perky and playful quality to it. While Kamina and the others are very positive thinkers, I would not call them "upbeat" per se.

The series also got increasingly dark near the end, and while it kept a positive message and outlook, I can't see that alone as being "upbeat".

[Hitokiri]

The world isn't as depressing as EVA's, that's for sure. Upbeat in the sense of characters, yes. The rest is up to the viewer.

[Guy1]

I'd say yes and it is most certainly hot blooded.

[Hiromi]

Up until the last episode, which was sorta a mix

[Darth Joker]

Depends on your definition of "upbeat".

I would define upbeat as having a more perky and playful quality to it. While Kamina and the others are very positive thinkers, I would not call them "upbeat" per se.

The series also got increasingly dark near the end, and while it kept a positive message and outlook, I can't see that alone as being "upbeat".

Myself, I'm going by a slightly altered formal definition of the adjective upbeat (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/upbeat); altered so that it would apply to the show.

Upbeat = Optimistic, happy, cheerful (going by the formal definition)

So, to me, an upbeat anime would be one in which the central characters typically maintain an optimistic, happy, and cheerful philosophy and/or vision for the world... and typically succeed in the realization of their upbeat philosophy/vision.

That certainly describes Kamina at almost all times. And Yoko. And Simon for the most part (especially in the two big climaxes). And just about all of the Dai Gurren Brigade. The only exception (protagonist-wise) is the Rossiu camp... and their camp was the ones that came out looking the worse and basically being proven wrong.


Still, in fairness to you, I don't know if I would call Gurren Lagann downright perky and playful - it certainly had plenty of great comedy moments, but it was a serious suspenseful war drama for the most part. Perhaps some folks can't reconcile that with 'upbeat'.


The world isn't as depressing as EVA's, that's for sure. Upbeat in the sense of characters, yes. The rest is up to the viewer.

I see your point here. For me, the series is character-driven moreso than plot-driven, making the characters viewpoints the central over-riding factor, imo. At least insofar as those viewpoints are validated (and the anime does tend to validate them, imo).


I'd say yes and it is most certainly hot blooded.

Amen to that. :biggrin:


Up until the last episode, which was sorta a mix

I totally agree with this. To me, that's a case of the last episode simply failing a bit to live up to the general thrust of the anime.


Thanks to everyone who provided feedback and/or votes. :smile:

[yeoman]

I see your point here. For me, the series is character-driven moreso than plot-driven, making the characters viewpoints the central over-riding factor, imo. At least insofar as those viewpoints are validated (and the anime does tend to validate them, imo).

I'd argue it was theme driven more than anything else. The plot is pretty much an excuse to show those themes and for giant robots to be awesome. The characters exist to show the themes and to be awesome.

[Darth Joker]

I'd argue it was theme driven more than anything else. The plot is pretty much an excuse to show those themes and for giant robots to be awesome. The characters exist to show the themes and to be awesome.

What would you say are the themes of the anime?

[Ghost]

I'd say it's optimistic and idealistic, mostly. It starts pretty up-beat, but then grows less up-beat as it goes along - Kamina's death being the first major sign that things aren't going to be all fun times and high-fives.

Myself, I'm going by a slightly altered formal definition of the adjective upbeat (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/upbeat); altered so that it would apply to the show.

Upbeat = Optimistic, happy, cheerful (going by the formal definition)

So, to me, an upbeat anime would be one in which the central characters typically maintain an optimistic, happy, and cheerful philosophy and/or vision for the world... and typically succeed in the realization of their upbeat philosophy/vision.

That certainly describes Kamina at almost all times. And Yoko. And Simon for the most part (especially in the two big climaxes). And just about all of the Dai Gurren Brigade. The only exception (protagonist-wise) is the Rossiu camp... and their camp was the ones that came out looking the worse and basically being proven wrong.

Keep in mind that this exact attitude was fortold to bring about the destruction of the universe. That kind of takes the edge of the cheerfulness.

Basically, instead of presenting Kamina's outlook on life and entirely positive, the show asks us if it's worth the cost in the end. And, well, Simon ultimately decided that it wasn't.

To me, it's more a question of mood and theme, and how the attitudes of the characters relate to the story as opposed to those attitudes in themselves.

What would you say are the themes of the anime?

That life/evolution/human society cannot be suppressed, but that this comes with a heavy responsibility.

[Kevin M.]

I would say it is upbeat for the most part, but also has a sense of dread sprinkled throughout the series to keep if from getting to out of whack.

[Darth Joker]

I'd say it's optimistic and idealistic, mostly. It starts pretty up-beat, but then grows less up-beat as it goes along - Kamina's death being the first major sign that things aren't going to be all fun times and high-fives.

Well, I wouldn't say that it's constantly upbeat. Usually upbeat is probably a better way of putting it.


Keep in mind that this exact attitude was fortold to bring about the destruction of the universe.

Hmm? How so? I don't recall that part, Ghost. Any specific quotes?

I know that the Anti-Spirals felt that Spiral power would bring destruction to the universe... but they were obviously wrong.


That kind of takes the edge of the cheerfulness.

Well, I'll need to see specific quotes first.




Basically, instead of presenting Kamina's outlook on life and entirely positive, the show asks us if it's worth the cost in the end. And, well, Simon ultimately decided that it wasn't.

... I'm not following you here. Simon followed Kamina's life outlook right to the letter; right to the great triumph over the Anti-Spirals.




To me, it's more a question of mood and theme, and how the attitudes of the characters relate to the story as opposed to those attitudes in themselves.

When all of the central protagonists share the same upbeat attitude, and they end up victorious in the end of each battle, I think that's pretty upbeat. It's not flawlessly cheerful because there are casualties along the way, but it's pretty upbeat. The first few episodes post-time skip notwithstanding of course; those were pretty dark, I will say.



That life/evolution/human society cannot be suppressed, but that this comes with a heavy responsibility.

I could perhaps see this as a secondary theme of Gurren Lagann.

However, the principle theme, I think, is that you should believe in yourself, strive for the best, and not let anything get in your way (much like how a good drill doesn't ;) ). This is what Kamina preached constantly, and this is what Simon followed almost flawlessly, typically with success.


I would say it is upbeat for the most part, but also has a sense of dread sprinkled throughout the series to keep if from getting to out of whack.

Well-put. I agree with this. :smile:

[yeoman]

However, the principle theme, I think, is that you should believe in yourself, strive for the best, and not let anything get in your way (much like how a good drill doesn't ;) ). This is what Kamina preached constantly, and this is what Simon followed almost flawlessly, typically with success.


And Determination, moving forward and to dream to go beyond the impossible. Gurren Lagann is *not* subtle with its themes. Often subtle with how things relate to those themes, but not the message itself.

[Kevin M.]

Well-put. I agree with this. :smile:



Ultimately, the message of Gurren Lagann is never give up no matter how dire the situation is. That in itself is an upbeat message. The downer part, which in itself is pretty well placed, is that even crowning moments of awesome require some kind of sacrifice.

[yeoman]

Ultimately, the message of Gurren Lagann is never give up no matter how dire the situation is. That in itself is an upbeat message. The downer part, which in itself is pretty well placed, is that even crowning moments of awesome require some kind of sacrifice.

I also kinda think Simon and Kamina, over the pre-timeskip peroid, represent the Super Robot genre as a whole.

In the beggining out lead, really, is the uncoplicated, brash, yet awesome Kamina, representing the roots of the genre.

After his death, Simon is at his most emo, and pretty much becomes Shinji, representing the Eva peroid.

After he pulls out of that though, he learns the lessons Kamina had treid to teach him, but applies them to himself, learns from them, but is determined to be his own man, learning from the past, but being strengthened by it rather than blindly imitating it, this being the construction of the genre peroid.

Or maybe that's just me...

[Kevin M.]

I also kinda think Simon and Kamina, over the pre-timeskip peroid, represent the Super Robot genre as a whole.

In the beggining out lead, really, is the uncoplicated, brash, yet awesome Kamina, representing the roots of the genre.

After his death, Simon is at his most emo, and pretty much becomes Shinji, representing the Eva peroid.

After he pulls out of that though, he learns the lessons Kamina had treid to teach him, but applies them to himself, learns from them, but is determined to be his own man, learning from the past, but being strengthened by it rather than blindly imitating it, this being the construction of the genre peroid.

Or maybe that's just me...



Sounds about right.

[Ghost]

Hmm? How so? I don't recall that part, Ghost. Any specific quotes?

Spiral Power creates an excess of energy which would eventually lead to the all-devouring singularity called Spiral Nemesis.

The Anti-Spiral believed that suppressing intelligent life to a minimum was the only way to avoid that. Kamina's belief that one should always rise up and overcome hardships rather then accepting them was the direct antithesis of that.

I know that the Anti-Spirals felt that Spiral power would bring destruction to the universe... but they were obviously wrong.

Um, no they weren't. It was pretty clearly stated that Spiral Nemesis was a real threat that would definitely come about in a universe controlled by the spiral races. I believe Simon even confirmed it.

When the anime ended, everyone pledged to find a way to stop Spiral Nemesis before it happened, but there was nothing to indicate whether they succeeded or not.

... I'm not following you here. Simon followed Kamina's life outlook right to the letter; right to the great triumph over the Anti-Spirals.


And afterwards Nia died. And Gimmy was like: "Screw that! We can do anything! Let's use the Spiral Power to bring her back!"

But Simon was like: "Nah, you know what, I think I'm going to quit this whole Spiral Power thing and live as a lonely, nameless vagabond from now on."

(I don't blame you if you've somehow managed to repress these things from your memory, of course. God knows I tried.)

I could perhaps see this as a secondary theme of Gurren Lagann.

However, the principle theme, I think, is that you should believe in yourself, strive for the best, and not let anything get in your way (much like how a good drill doesn't ;) ). This is what Kamina preached constantly, and this is what Simon followed almost flawlessly, typically with success.


I think it's a mistake to think of it as the secondary theme. What you're talking about is initial, superficial theme we are presented with: "If you want it bad enough, you can do anything..."

But once it gets to the end and you look deeper, the perspective changes and results in: "...you can do anything, but maybe that's not necessarily a good thing."

Like many good themes, this one is actually slightly ambiguous.

[Robotech Master]

And afterwards Nia died. And Gimmy was like: "Screw that! We can do anything! Let's use the Spiral Power to bring her back!"

But Simon was like: "Nah, you know what, I think I'm going to quit this whole Spiral Power thing and live as a lonely, nameless vagabond from now on."

(I don't blame you if you've somehow managed to repress these things from your memory, of course. God knows I tried.)



But there is a prevailing theory that this decision on Simon's part was a bittersweet positive note. The fact that he was willing to accept certain inevitabilities, even painful ones, rather than bypass them with Spiral Power, may have been an indication that Spiral Power *won't* lead to the Spiral Nemesis--not when its used responsibly like with Simon.

[yeoman]

Um, no they weren't. It was pretty clearly stated that Spiral Nemesis was a real threat that would definitely come about in a universe controlled by the spiral races. I believe Simon even confirmed it.

According to Lord Genome anyone with high spiral power, once they are told or figure it out, will know it as an inherent truth.

When the anime ended, everyone pledged to find a way to stop Spiral Nemesis before it happened, but there was nothing to indicate whether they succeeded or not.

It's pretty ovious they did. That's why Captain GARlock in the first five minutes is an alternate reality.


And afterwards Nia died. And Gimmy was like: "Screw that! We can do anything! Let's use the Spiral Power to bring her back!"

But Simon was like: "Nah, you know what, I think I'm going to quit this whole Spiral Power thing and live as a lonely, nameless vagabond from now on."

No, Simon relaized that bringing her back is the start of the slippery slope that leads to the Spiral Nemisis.* He choose to found the new alliance of spiral peoples on the premise of responsible use of spiral power.

Also, nameless? What the hell does he have to prove to some punk kid? He saved the universe and constructed a giant robot out of his awesome. Not to mention that anyone that thinks he wouldn't come back the second he's really and honestly needed wasn't paying attention. And, personally, I see him as the wandering hero rather than anything else.



*So, we've just brought Nia back. Well, obviously Kamina should be brought back too. And, hey, Kittan and the rest of Team Dai-Gurren. As national heroes they deserve it. Oh, and everyone that died in anti-spiral attacks. And everyone that died to beastmen didn't deserve it. And their loved ones from natural caueses. And my bunny Mr. Flopsy. And. And. And. Boom. Spiral Nemisis.

[yeoman]

But there is a prevailing theory that this decision on Simon's part was a bittersweet positive note. The fact that he was willing to accept certain inevitabilities, even painful ones, rather than bypass them with Spiral Power, may have been an indication that Spiral Power *won't* lead to the Spiral Nemesis--not when its used responsibly like with Simon.

And, even if he's not immortal, even if he can't see it through to the end? Viral is and can. He left behind an immortal, indestructable, messanger who has first hand witnessed both out of control Spiral Power and all consuming desire to repress it.

[Darth Joker]

*So, we've just brought Nia back. Well, obviously Kamina should be brought back too. And, hey, Kittan and the rest of Team Dai-Gurren. As national heroes they deserve it. Oh, and everyone that died in anti-spiral attacks. And everyone that died to beastmen didn't deserve it. And their loved ones from natural caueses. And my bunny Mr. Flopsy. And. And. And. Boom. Spiral Nemisis.

I disagree with that line of thinking, Yeoman. There's a big difference between preventing a death, and resurrecting the dead. Also, Nia's death was kind of like a person dying from a birth defect (in Nia's case, being an anti-spiral); one can argue that if you have the medical science to cure a birth defect, that you should use it. Simon could have drawn a line right after Nia, and he would have been right to do so, imo.


But thanks for pointing out how the Captain GARlock scene indicates that Simon et al ultimately did beat the Spiral Nemisis. :)


But there is a prevailing theory...

Prevailing? I don't know if I would say that it's prevailing. Many Gurren Lagann fans weren't happy with the end (Nia's part in it, anyway), and I'm one of them. Ghost too, apparently.

Overall, it was a good ending in most respects, but not this part of it, anyway. I would have preferred it if they had stuck to Kamina's philosophy to the very end... instead of for just every episode before it (hence why I consider Gurren Lagann upbeat until the mixed end).

[Rod G]

Believe it or not,there's this theory that the Captain GARlock character may in fact have been Lordgenome as a young man,which would make the first minutes of episode 1 take place in the past .

[yeoman]

Believe it or not,there's this theory that the Captain GARlock character may in fact have been Lordgenome as a young man,which would make the first minutes of episode 1 take place in the past .

Except those five minutes ended with the Spiral Nemisis. Also, we've seen a young Lord Genome. He really didn't look like that from what I recall. And he'd have had Guame rather than humanoid Boota.

[yeoman]

I disagree with that line of thinking, Yeoman. There's a big difference between preventing a death, and resurrecting the dead. Also, Nia's death was kind of like a person dying from a birth defect (in Nia's case, being an anti-spiral); one can argue that if you have the medical science to cure a birth defect, that you should use it.


Excapt that Nia was only holding onto existance by sheer force of will. She was already starting to fade back during the fight with Grand Zamboa. By this point she was already dead.

Simon could have drawn a line right after Nia, and he would have been right to do so, imo.

No. He can't. You can't do something and then say "No one can ever do what I have done to save a loved one ever again." There will always be someone to whom their love was just as great as yours. Ever see Full Metal Alchemist? Do you think the Elric Brothers cared that there was a line saying "Don't do this. Ever. No. Really. We mean it. Seriously."

Simon knew that for the new people of the spiral to have a meaningful example of how to use spiral power then ye couldn't step over that line at all. And Nia seemed to agree.

[Rod G]

Except those five minutes ended with the Spiral Nemisis. Also, we've seen a young Lord Genome. He really didn't look like that from what I recall. And he'd have had Guame rather than humanoid Boota.


Lordgenome's band could have beaten the Spiral Nemesis back,but not without a major cost,which may have caused Lordgenome to agree with the Anti-Spirals and embark on his role as tyrranical overlord.

Guame could have evolved from his "boota".


I'm just saying.

[yeoman]

Lordgenome's band could have beaten the Spiral Nemesis back,but not without a major cost,which may have caused Lordgenome to agree with the Anti-Spirals and embark on his role as tyrranical overlord.

Guame could have evolved from his "boota".


I'm just saying.

Except this was covered in Parrallel Works 8. We saw what caused Lordgenome to break, and we saw the unevolved Guame. None of it was anything like Captain GARlock.

[Rod G]

Except this was covered in Parrallel Works 8. We saw what caused Lordgenome to break, and we saw the unevolved Guame. None of it was anything like Captain GARlock.


Or maybe Parallel Works 8 was another interpretation of the events in episode 1.

[Hazard]

Believe it or not,there's this theory that the Captain GARlock character may in fact have been Lordgenome as a young man,which would make the first minutes of episode 1 take place in the past .

You do know that GARlock is Simon right? Same coat, same hair, same voice actor,He even has Boota with him. The scene was originally supposed to take place in the future of Gurren Lagann, but due to some changes it no longer fit with the storyline. Later, they changed it so that the scene represents an alternate reality where Simon and the rest of the Dai-Gurren dan become the Spiral Nemesis.

[yeoman]

Or maybe Parallel Works 8 was another interpretation of the events in episode 1.

every single thing about Parallel Works 8 leads it up to be Lord Genome's background. The parallels with Simon, how he got Tepplin, why he betrayed the Spiral Knights, how he did so, everything. Also, IIRC, official statements from Gainax back this up.

[Rod G]

You do know that GARlock is Simon right? Same coat, same hair, same voice actor,He even has Boota with him. The scene was originally supposed to take place in the future of Gurren Lagann, but due to some changes it no longer fit with the storyline. Later, they changed it so that the scene represents an alternate reality where Simon and the rest of the Dai-Gurren dan become the Spiral Nemesis.



GARlock has A boota,not THE boota.

Besides,even if Guame isn't Boota or vice versa,Guame could still be in that scene somewhere.



Let's get one thing clear,I'm not saying any of you are wrong.
All I'm saying is what I've heard.Which means GARlock could just
as easily be an alternate future Simon as a past Lordgenome.



If one were to accept GARlock as a past Lordgenome,then Parallel Works
8 could be,as I said,an alternate interpretation of the prelude in episode 1.

[yeoman]

GARlock has A boota,not THE boota.

Besides,even if Guame isn't Boota or vice versa,Guame could still be in that scene somewhere.



Let's get one thing clear,I'm not saying any of you are wrong.
All I'm saying is what I've heard.Which means GARlock could just
as easily be an alternate future Simon as a past Lordgenome.



If one were to accept GARlock as a past Lordgenome,then Parallel Works
8 could be,as I said,an alternate interpretation of the prelude in episode 1.

No, no not really. Saying that it could jsut as eaily is saying that there's an even chance they were always meant as such. And that's prtty much the oppsosite of the truth. They are clearly intended at PW8=The Adventures of Young Lordgenome, Captain GARlock=Alternate future Simon.

If one wanted to write fanfic saying the opposite, hey, your deal. But that's pretty clearly not the authorial intent. It's not like we're discussing the metaphors in Utena where it really is totally up in the air. We're talking about something that does have clear intent, Wild Mass Guessing aside.

[Darth Joker]

Excapt that Nia was only holding onto existance by sheer force of will. She was already starting to fade back during the fight with Grand Zamboa. By this point she was already dead.

I just don't agree with that. That's like saying Sakai Yuji's already dead over in the Shana anime... especially after he had the Reiji Maiko (Sp?) taken out of him for awhile during the 2nd half of Shana Season II.

Shana didn't treat Yuji as 'already dead' after Hecate took his Reiji Maiko so I don't think that Simon should have treated Nia that way either.


I agree with you that outright resurrection of dead loved ones would be taking it too far, because you really are on a slippery slope there that would inevitably lead to the spiral nemesis.

But one healing exception for Nia given her unique status as an anti-spiral who would rather be human? I think that it would have been good if Simon had made an exception here.

Don't take this too strongly; Simon is still an excellent character and person overall, and really, he's simply a victim of Gainax like many of their other prominent characters are...

[yeoman]

I agree with you that outright resurrection of dead loved ones would be taking it too far, because you really are on a slippery slope there that would inevitably lead to the spiral nemesis.

But one healing exception for Nia given her unique status as an anti-spiral who would rather be human? I think that it would have been good if Simon had made an exception here.

He can't make any exceptions. At all. He needs to come down firmly on the use of SPiral Power for personal gain. Any personal gain. It *has* to be used when necessary or not at all. Otherwise the Anti-Spirals were right.

[Hazard]

Gainax killing happy endings to teach non practical moral lessons. This is why the ending of Code Geass is my favorite. Those that want to assume Lelouch died can do so, and those that want to assume he is alive can do so too.

[Rod G]

Gainax killing happy endings to teach non practical moral lessons. This is why the ending of Code Geass is my favorite. Those that want to assume Lelouch died can do so, and those that want to assume he is alive can do so too.

Word of God states that Lelouch is DEFINITELY dead.

[Becoming An Anthropologist]

By my own standards I wouldn't go so far as to call it upbeat, but I suppose one could call it upbeat by Anime standards. Really, there are only about a total of 5 episodes I wouldn't call remotely upbeat; whereas the message is pretty much " you can do anything". Heck, the characters and sons shot it out throughout the series!

It's very upbeat compare to a series like Evagelion though. That series was just annoying in parts with Shinji and his whining.

[Hazard]

Word of God states that Lelouch is DEFINITELY dead.

Yet afterwards a poster of Lelouch in the countryside with C.C. was released. Please lets not get into this subject. There are enough arguments about it already. I hate beating a dead horse.

[yeoman]

Gainax killing happy endings to teach non practical moral lessons. This is why the ending of Code Geass is my favorite. Those that want to assume Lelouch died can do so, and those that want to assume he is alive can do so too.


Nah, that would be the end of Utena, where what happens to the main character is entirely dependent on if you are a pessimist or a romantic.