Who's the Bigger @sshole?: Tony Stark or Reed Richards

[durty dee]

Reed

But how is "Reed Richards as A$$hole" out of character? As someone else pointed out he:

-led his girlfriend, a teenager, and his best friend to steal a shuttle and fly through radiation ...over the warnings of his best friend who got turned into a monster. (Ben was right...)

-failed to turn his friend back into a man despite his genius.

-On multiple occassions, after his friend DID get turned back into a man, intentionally turned him back into the Thing because he deemed something else more important than his friends humanity (is that really his decision?)

- habitually ignored his wife and kids because he thought his work was more important... but paid attention when Namor, the jock to his geek, came calling on her.

Maybe Reed has always just been an a$$hole? If I was Ben Grimm, I certainly would not still be friends with him. Even the skrull $hit with turning them into cows was pretty f'd up.

and

Tony
.
..... You all know the jerk stuff he's done. People talk about it everyday...

So who's worse?

[Monty_Cristo]

my boy Eric O'Grady! did you see that sh!t he did to Monkey Speedball?

high lights:

- sponged off his friend for years; culminating in sneaking into SHIELD

- talked friend into trying on experimental ant-man suit and then running like hell when he thought the suit had killed him (actually just went ant-size)

- got said friend killed; stealing the ant-man costume right off of him

- lied to every character he encountered throughout the series

- responsible for high ranking SHIELD agent Mitch Carson's disfigurement, early retirement, and false imprisonment

- impregnated said friend's girlfriend after telling her that the friend was cheating on her w/ a girl Eric actually slept with/took naked photos of to sell to the SHIELD cafeteria workers in exchange for jumping ahead in line

- when pregnant girl asked him to get serious relationship-wise he tells her that he was only in it for the sex

- saves a woman from being raped at knife point only to exhort an expensive dinner out of her, make an awkward attempt to get her into bed, and (after being asked to leave) sneaks back into her apartment to spy on her showering

- pretends to help She-Hulk fight Mister Hyde to impress his girlfriend but bails immediately after they are out of view

- ratting on Black Fox/getting the old guy arrested after the former risked his life to come rescue Eric aboard the Helicarrier

- beating up Cassie Lang after verbally disparaging her father in front of the other Initiative recruits

- bullying Monkey Speedball because he's a monkey

- being enough of a b@stard to make Taskmaster like him

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26948/516122-6_super.jpg
http://bp2.blogger.com/_RM1nTPpMDEc/RZ5-br7gnEI/AAAAAAAAAVM/b4Nc6_QxPL0/s1600-h/AntMan_03_Odororeo_+038.jpg

[Alan2099]

Tony. Reed is far too oblivious to human nature to really be an a-hole. Tony at least socializes and belives he knows people.

[durty dee]

my boy Eric O'Grady! did you see that sh!t he did to Monkey Speedball?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26948/516122-6_super.jpg
http://bp2.blogger.com/_RM1nTPpMDEc/RZ5-br7gnEI/AAAAAAAAAVM/b4Nc6_QxPL0/s1600-h/AntMan_03_Odororeo_+038.jpg

Man.... you can't let a dead guy c*ckblock you..... even if he was your best friend. I'd do the same thing.

[Monty_Cristo]

Man.... you can't let a dead guy c*ckblock you..... even if he was your best friend. I'd do the same thing.

granted. but Eric made his move before Chris was dead. he lied to break the two of them up because the chick rejected him numerous times. and he didn't wear a condom. and he got her preggers. and he basically said "sucks to be you" and split. it's one thing if he wanted to get with Veronica; to date her. but he just wanted a one night stand. and he broke man code to get it. it's a good thing Chris didn't have a sister. Eric would have knocked her up, too. no one out-@$$hole's O'Grady. :biggrin:

[Fatguy]

Tony.

Reed seems by far more annoying though.

[XPac]

It's a tough call.

Tony's actions in a lot of ways were worse. But you could at least see the regret.

In Reeds case, I sometimes wonder if he even cares.

[Brother Justin Crowe]

Tony's a people person who does it all "for the future".

Reed's socially inept and does it all "for science."

Tony's the bigger jerk, by far.

[mikekerr3]

Both are morally and ehically clueless much of the time, Both are sublimely arrogant about thier own judgment evwn about things where they are clueless,


Reed does have a support structure that tends to help him stay on the straight and a narrow a touch more though

[Syrant]

I don't think of either of them as assholes. They're geniuses with the weight of world on their shoulders. They try their best to save the world.

That's a lot more then I would do with powers. My actions would be more of the...Ant-Man variety.

[Sighphi]

Reed gets away with everything because he is doing his stuff for "Science" yet we have never seen how any of that is actually applied.

For Tony we actually saw his thing applied and it went a bit to the left and all of a sudden he is a major A-Hole because heroes need to get it right for the first time or not at all.

[Iron Maiden]

I don't think of either of them as assholes. They're geniuses with the weight of world on their shoulders. They try their best to save the world.

That's a lot more then I would do with powers. My actions would be more of the...Ant-Man variety.

The Lamp of Diogenes is shining on you :biggrin:

I have to counter a couple of things in the OP about Reed:

Originally Posted by dkostus
But how is "Reed Richards as A$$hole" out of character? As someone else pointed out he:

-led his girlfriend, a teenager, and his best friend to steal a shuttle and fly through radiation ...over the warnings of his best friend who got turned into a monster. (Ben was right...)

Sue was the one that actually goaded Ben into going because she basically called him a wuss. Reed told Sue and Johnny that only he and Ben were qualified to go but they both insisted on coming.

-failed to turn his friend back into a man despite his genius.

Byrne's run revealed that Ben subconciously resisted any cures because he thought he would lose the love of Alicia. At some point, I can't recall where, it's been pretty much given that he's reached the point of no return and can't be changed back.


-On multiple occassions, after his friend DID get turned back into a man, intentionally turned him back into the Thing because he deemed something else more important than his friends humanity (is that really his decision?)

Not true....Ben's made the choice willingly in most cases. The only questionable time was in the fight with Doom at the Baxter Building. He was the only one at that time that could have tackled Doom one on one and was more angry that Doom's threat forced it on him.

- habitually ignored his wife and kids because he thought his work was more important... but paid attention when Namor, the jock to his geek, came calling on her.

You can say that about a lot of workaholics. He doesn't avoid them deliberately though....it's more of a benign neglect. His love for them is not questioned. Heck, he's never been even tempted by anyone nearly as much as Sue has been by Namor.

Maybe Reed has always just been an a$$hole? If I was Ben Grimm, I certainly would not still be friends with him. Even the skrull $hit with turning them into cows was pretty f'd up.

I think the a$$hole tag comes more from recent behavior than past. The Skull thing was pretty wacky to begin with. They actually fell for Reeds' assertion that horrible monsters infested the Earth by his showing the Skrull Emperor a comic book. It was a bit of a joke by Stan and Jack. The Skrulls in FF #2 whined about the fact that they hated being Skrulls so Reed said they had to agree to change into what he told them. The Skrulls only wanted to have a peaceful existence...one says "Promise us that we will be contented." Carnation Milk had a famous ad at the time that said their milk came from contented cows. Pretty obscure punchline these days.

Coming back to the present, it's a moot point going over old ground about Reed's various transgresssions. To me, you may as well have called Tony and Reed the Dick Cheney tag team, trampling on past friendships and basic civil rights like habeas corpus. I'd say Tony wins the contest by a nose, only because he seemed to be the one calling the shots while Reed willngly followed his lead.

[Drdmx]

I'll roll with Stark.... simply cause there were some instances where it was all about him playing God; and while maybe that wasnt his intent.. it is what he did.

For all his faults, I think Reed was just trying to support a plan he thought was worthwhile. But apparently it's bad writing to want to see the character come to terms with that. :wink:

[Jason Abbadon]

Tony's a people person who does it all "for the future".

Reed's socially inept and does it all "for science."

Tony's the bigger jerk, by far.

But also the bigger hero by far- his means might not be suitable for everyone but his goal- to help the world- is always noble.
Tony sees the world as someting he can elevate and people as a means to that end- he sees a threat and acts before it happens.

Reed kinda waits for some menace to attack and then defeats it- he's sorta oblivious to his fellow man- the real people working from day to day.
He's a good guy, just more of a professor than a player.

It's also why Reed and Tony get along so well- they dont have to dumb anything down when talking and their strengths compliment one another.

[SquidSquod]

Tony, it's his schtick to force his way most of the times. Reed is a good family man who tends to be overawed by the wonder of science. Tony knows what he wants to achieve and like Nick Fury long-lost brother he carries out his mission swiftly under that benign guise of a preppy, smarmy inventor.

.

[mdg1]

Tony. Especially in the late 80's & early 90's, Tony couldn't go six months without alienating his friends (especially Rhodey) because he was manipulating them.