Discussing Tom Brevoort's belief on Comic Fans not supporting Minority Characters

[babybro]

Comic Diversity did an article on Tom Breevort remarks regarding comic book fans not supporting non-white leads. Here are some direct quotes from Tom, Mark Waid, and the article itself. Here is what Tom Breevort had to say.

“I don't know that it's any one thing, but if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that it's all part of the same phenomenon that makes it more difficult to sell series with female leads, or African-American leads, or leads of any other particular cultural bent. Because we're an American company whose primary distribution is centered around America, the great majority of our existing audience seems to be white American males. So while within that demographic you'll find people who are interested in a wide assortment of characters of diverse ethnicities and backgrounds, whenever your leads are white American males, you've got a better chance of reaching more people overall. I don't know that it's any one thing, but if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that it's all part of the same phenomenon that makes it more difficult to sell series with female leads, or African-American leads, or leads of any other particular cultural bent. Because we're an American company whose primary distribution is centered around America, the great majority of our existing audience seems to be white American males. So while within that demographic you'll find people who are interested in a wide assortment of characters of diverse ethnicities and backgrounds, whenever your leads are white American males, you've got a better chance of reaching more people overall.”

Quote From Mark Waid Backing him up.

"Tom's syntax following that is a little blunt...man, I wish it were wrong, but it's not. Every comics publisher ever, including BOOM!, can tell you maddening tales of retailers who, even now, in the 21st century, are hesitant to order books with non-white, non-American leads because their community won't support them. It's absurd, it's crazy-making, I don't know what it's going to take to change that other than time...but like it or not, it is an unfortunate truth of the time in which we live.”

And a quote from the article.

have seen this statement given before by other writers, editors, and artists of the industry, and yet fans constantly refuse this statement claims any truth? Could all of these individuals who claim the fault of female and non white leads failure lies on the fans be right? Possibly

[Link (http://comicdiversity.atspace.com/Tom%20Breevort%20Remark2.html)

[Hulk_Is]

They're not saying anything I didn't already know.

[XPac]

It's interesting that they mentioned that retailers are more hesitant to buy books with non white male leads. That's a perspective I never thought about.

There's not a whole lot marvel or Disney can do about that if that's the case, apart from trying to do more and hoping people buy it so retailers will be more willing to buy more.

[CyberHubbs]

Batgirl (Cassandra Cain, yo) sold fairly well back in the day, didn't it? 'Course, that could be the exception to the rule.

[XPac]

Batgirl (Cassandra Cain, yo) sold fairly well back in the day, didn't it? 'Course, that could be the exception to the rule.

I think the advantage of Batgirl (or Supergirl) is that they can sort of ride the coat tails off of a more popular established character.

That doesn't always work... but it can help.

[babybro]

It's interesting that they mentioned that retailers are more hesitant to buy books with non white male leads. That's a perspective I never thought about.

There's not a whole lot marvel or Disney can do about that if that's the case, apart from trying to do more and hoping people buy it so retailers will be more willing to buy more.

In that aspect, yeah, Marvel cannot do much, but I definitely believe Disney can do much more. Disney is of course, a marketing and producing powerhouse. If anyone can get retailers to purchase minority products, it's disney. Secondly, Disney can reach a demographic that Marvel hasn't been able to, primarily non-white readers.
So it's even further proof that the disney and marvel plan was a good idea, but it open my eyes to comic book readers and makes me feel flustered with emotion. Because the most I can do is purchase the books with non-white leads and recommend them to others. Other than that, there is very little I can do.

[carabas]

There is one thing Marvel or Disney can do. Fix distribution so that comics would no longer be non-returnable. It would make it a lot more enticing for retailers to take a few risks when ordering books.

[oscarwildebeest]

It's a good point. I like to think I'm supportive of diversity in comics, but if you look at what I buy, "Air" is the only title with female and non-white protagonists (at least that's been the case since "Runaways" started sucking). "Echo" also has a female lead and a few female principles, but its definitely a pretty white comic.

Well, this is my plan for "Operation shake the haters": get somebody to write me a good Storm book again, like maybe in the Ultimates line since Ultimates isn't doing anything with the X-Men right now, and I'll buy the hell out of it.

Marvel actually has a lot of strong minority characters that are very popular (like Storm) but they tend to be parts of teams since they are easier to sell that way. So why not work a few more of them into their own titles?

[Cthulhudrew]

I've kind of wondered, myself, if it might not make good business sense for the "big guns" to try and directly target certain demographics with titles, rather than attempt to go through the retailers. For example, what if Marvel tried to market an American Eagle comic to the Navajo reservation, to build a demographic base directly. (Surely there are retailers on the reservations who would order such titles aimed at their markets?)

Possibly not the best example, but it seems to me that some direct to demographic marketing and surveys would allow them to build larger bases for non-white, non-male titles? And perhaps (one could only hope) bring in some creators from those demograhpics as well?

[Michael P]

He's right.

[XPac]

It's a good point. I like to think I'm supportive of diversity in comics, but if you look at what I buy, "Air" is the only title with female and non-white protagonists (at least that's been the case since "Runaways" started sucking). "Echo" also has a female lead and a few female principles, but its definitely a pretty white comic.

Well, this is my plan for "Operation shake the haters": get somebody to write me a good Storm book again, like maybe in the Ultimates line since Ultimates isn't doing anything with the X-Men right now, and I'll buy the hell out of it.

Marvel actually has a lot of strong minority characters that are very popular (like Storm) but they tend to be parts of teams since they are easier to sell that way. So why not work a few more of them into their own titles?

Storm did get her own mini awhile back... not sure how well it did though. Hopefully it did well enough for marvel to at least give her another shot.

Or give her another X-Men team to lead, like they did with Xtreme X-Men. That might work.

[carabas]

It's not just books with non-white, non-male leads that are hatd sells.
Any book that doesn't star a character that has already been succesfull for decades has basically zero chance of succeeding unles a very A-list creative team is involved.

[babybro]

It's not just books with non-white, non-male leads that are hatd sells.
Any book that doesn't star a character that has already been succesfull for decades has basically zero chance of succeeding unles a very A-list creative team is involved.

Incorrect, it does happen, just not as much. Excellent examples includes Skaar and Deadpool. But it's not just about the sells about acknowledgement of these characters in the first place. Imagine how many people know Sentry or skaar, and now imagine that with how many people know Josiah Power or Blue Marvel. It still goes back to what Tom was saying, non-white fans appear to have a harder time reacting to leads who are non-white leads.

[4sake]

I've kind of wondered, myself, if it might not make good business sense for the "big guns" to try and directly target certain demographics with titles, rather than attempt to go through the retailers. For example, what if Marvel tried to market an American Eagle comic to the Navajo reservation, to build a demographic base directly. (Surely there are retailers on the reservations who would order such titles aimed at their markets?)

Possibly not the best example, but it seems to me that some direct to demographic marketing and surveys would allow them to build larger bases for non-white, non-male titles? And perhaps (one could only hope) bring in some creators from those demograhpics as well?

I'd buy Jason Strongbow comic. :cool:

[XPac]

Incorrect, it does happen, just not as much. Excellent examples includes Skaar and Deadpool. But it's not just about the sells about acknowledgement of these characters in the first place. Imagine how many people know Sentry or skaar, and now imagine that with how many people know Josiah Power or Blue Marvel. It still goes back to what Tom was saying, non-white fans appear to have a harder time reacting to leads who are non-white leads.

Though I DO consider Deadpool the next major break through character in marvel, the guy has been around since 1991. It took him a long time to get to where he is now.

If Blue Marvel is as lucky ad Deadpool is, he'll get his big moment to shine in about a decade and a half.

[Sighphi]

So..... he is basically saying that he somehow has a demographic that says almost all people that buy comics are white males?

They cant even accurately tell how many comics they sell but they know that is mostly a white-male medium.

It's very interesting that the comic book medium seems to be the ONLY medium where diversity isnt wanted.

[Will.S]

Though I DO consider Deadpool the next major break through character in marvel, the guy has been around since 1991. It took him a long time to get to where he is now.

If Blue Marvel is as lucky ad Deadpool is, he'll get his big moment to shine in about a decade and a half.
Well Marvel is currently, and to borrow a term used by Comics Culture Warrior's Elliot Serrano, "carpet bombing" the shelves with Deadpool books among the Dark Reign books so they're really trying their hardest to make Deadpool more popular than he currently is. Although whether that's working on a sales basis remains to be seen.

So..... he is basically saying that he somehow has a demographic that says almost all people that buy comics are white males?

They cant even accurately tell how many comics they sell but they know that is mostly a white-male medium.

It's very interesting that the comic book medium seems to be the ONLY medium where diversity isnt wanted.I'm guessing that they're measuring or comparing the sales data of books that feature a Caucasian male/female lead vs books that feature a Black, Asian or his Hispanic male/female lead.

But as carabas said, it's not always a diversity type of thing as it may be endemic of fans just not bothering to take risks with other superhero books and clutch desperately to their favorite characters.

[Hrist]

But as carabas said, it's not always a diversity type of thing as it may be endemic of fans just not bothering to take risks with other superhero books and clutch desperately to their favorite characters.

The fact that most long-established characters with ongoing titles are white males is surely a diversity problem, anyway, though, right? It's a big chicken-and-egg scenario no one seems to want to break out of.

[XPac]

The fact that most long-established characters with ongoing titles are white males is surely a diversity problem, anyway, though, right? It's a big chicken-and-egg scenario no one seems to want to break out of.

The problem is that it's nearly impossible to break out of it, because most books fail.

Wolverine was probably the first new character to break through that glass ceiling since the first Stan Lee/Kirby batch and that took at least a good or so decade worth of ground breaking X-Men stories.

I'm not sure we've gotten a real break through character since then... though Deadpool is coming close.

I hoped Blade would be a break through character after 3 movies (2 of which were pretty dam good)... and I still have hope for Storm. I still think she's one strong push away from going to another level. But it's tough... marvel can do everything in it's power to ram a particular character down our throats (as mentioned earlier they're trying that with Deadpool), but in the end they can only do so much.

[Maestro]

I would totally support a solo series about X-23!

[Fatguy]

The problem is that it's nearly impossible to break out of it, because most books fail.

Wolverine was probably the first new character to break through that glass ceiling since the first Stan Lee/Kirby batch and that took at least a good or so decade worth of ground breaking X-Men stories.

I'm not sure we've gotten a real break through character since then... though Deadpool is coming close.

I hoped Blade would be a break through character after 3 movies (2 of which were pretty dam good)... and I still have hope for Storm. I still think she's one strong push away from going to another level. But it's tough... marvel can do everything in it's power to ram a particular character down our throats (as mentioned earlier they're trying that with Deadpool), but in the end they can only do so much.
Yeah, that's the biggest obstacle for minorities, there's (which is really, really sad) no longer a market for new characters. 99% of the characters which are popular and successful now, came from a time when minorities were pretty much completely absent.

[Iron Maiden]

Maybe Oprah should get an ongoing series.

[Freakzeek]

there not saying anything I didn't already know

[Hulk_Is]

Maybe Oprah should get an ongoing series.

Um, no. She'd be hard to identify with remember?

[dirtydozen]

They need to promote non-white lead characters without even paying attention to their race. If a character is awesome they will sell regardless what race they are. Blade being black isn't what made 3 movies and all the comics. Blade being friggin awesome sold all that. We don't need a lesson in race relations in our comic books, we need good stories and good characters. Storm won't succeed on her own because she's some ridiculous African princess now.

Books with minority leads fail because they promote diversity over quality.

[zebop]

Breevort and Waid are both right, but I don't see anything in the pipeline that's going to change this dynamic. :frown:

[Hulk_Is]

Books with minority leads fail because they promote diversity over quality.

So, an emphasis on diversity automatically kills quality? And a book featuring a minority lead means it's primary purpose is to promote diversity?

[carabas]

Incorrect, it does happen, just not as much. Excellent examples includes Skaar and Deadpool.Deadpool has been around for ages, he is linked to Wolverine by his origin...

Skaar hasn't been around long enough to be called succesfull. And his sales are below 30K and still haven't leveled out yet. Hardly succesfull.

Besides, there is bound to be an exception everynow or then.

[Hrist]

The problem is that it's nearly impossible to break out of it, because most books fail.

I totally agree with you, when I said "no one seems to want to" I meant to type "no one seems to know how to."

As for diversity over quality, there's no way you can tell me that Jaime Reyes did not have an awesome series.

[Jason Abbadon]

It's more about the comic's quality (or severe lack thereof) that makes or breaks, IMHO.

If they made a Luke Cage comic, written by Bendis (who has done a lot for the character), I'd certainly buy it.
Because I know they story would be good and the charcater would not be a drastic change from his former appearances.

But in waaay to many cases, a comic featuring a minority lead is a soapbox for social issues and reads like an after-school special.
Or worse, you have a comic where (for example) the black lead only fights black bad guys and those are second-stringers or new characters made just to fight the lead- the comics insustry seems afraid to have whites fighting blacks or vice-versa because they fear it will be misread as racism.

So they either avoid books with a minority or handle them with kid gloves.

Give us a good story with compelling characters and good art and it will sell.
Period.

What we dont need is another Black Goliath or Apache Chief or Shamrock or Ace or Sabra beating us over the head with their racial identity.
Seriously, Ace was Michael Jackson, for god's sake- and he kicked Spider-Man's butt.

Impossibly lame.

[Greg Anderson]

<sighs> I can only hope people look past race and support the Doctor Voodoo book. But it's probably wishful thinking. :frown:

[TimmyTony]

It's a sad reality that still a lot of fans like to pretend doesn't happen.

[XPac]

It's more about the comic's quality (or severe lack thereof) that makes or breaks, IMHO.

If they made a Luke Cage comic, written by Bendis (who has done a lot for the character), I'd certainly buy it.
Because I know they story would be good and the charcater would not be a drastic change from his former appearances.

But in waaay to many cases, a comic featuring a minority lead is a soapbox for social issues and reads like an after-school special.
Or worse, you have a comic where (for example) the black lead only fights black bad guys and those are second-stringers or new characters made just to fight the lead- the comics insustry seems afraid to have whites fighting blacks or vice-versa because they fear it will be misread as racism.

So they either avoid books with a minority or handle them with kid gloves.

Give us a good story with compelling characters and good art and it will sell.
Period.

What we dont need is another Black Goliath or Apache Chief or Shamrock or Ace or Sabra beating us over the head with their racial identity.
Seriously, Ace was Michael Jackson, for god's sake- and he kicked Spider-Man's butt.

Impossibly lame.

I agree that ultimately quality is the best shot these guys have.

It won't necessarily make a book sell enough to sustain an on-going (as we all know, most books DO fail). But hopefully it will at least generate interest in other writers do try and use that character.

Bendis opted to use Sentry, Ares, Marvel Boy, and Hood because he liked their mini's. Even if readers weren't necessarily picketing marvel to give any of these guys their own books, they were quality enough to at least attract the attention of another writer.

Same thing with Antman. Slott threw the character a life raft, and the character continues to be used.

A good character is a good character regardless of race. And sooner or later a writer will see that, even if the masses don't.

As far as social issues go... I do agree that it can turn readers off (even though I personally think such stories can be fun when done well). I think the sucess of the Xmen books lied in the fact that they used metaphors to convey the social commentary. So it's there for people that like that sort of thing, but not conveyed in an overly heavy manner so it doesn't bother those that don't. Buffy the vampire slayer often did the same thing. It DID have an after school message in there at times... but it was fictionally conveyed and overall very well done.

[RolandJP]

They need to promote non-white lead characters without even paying attention to their race. If a character is awesome they will sell regardless what race they are. Blade being black isn't what made 3 movies and all the comics. Blade being friggin awesome sold all that. We don't need a lesson in race relations in our comic books, we need good stories and good characters. Storm won't succeed on her own because she's some ridiculous African princess now.

Books with minority leads fail because they promote diversity over quality.


Boulderdash!


Storm wasn't supported before the wedding so its a bit of a stretch to say she doesn't now because of a marriage. Frankly, if not for the marriage she would probably end up dead or trapped in another dimension never to be seen again.

Deathlok, Bishop and Monica Rambeau weren't used as social sounding boards..nor Falcon. And the fanbase that you spoke of did nothing to support those characters.

Lets face it racial prejudice has never gone away. I listen to rock and roll, Korn, Guns and Roses and the like..I even had there posters up on my wall. But youll be hard pressed to find a white kid with a Biggie Smalls Tupac or Boys 2 men poster on their wall. Even If they liked the music they would be afraid of the social backlash.

Its a cultural problem not a publishing one. The thing I find fascinating is the fact that minorities are now 1/3rd of the nations populace and this is still going on. I guess when the nations children are 53% minority by the year 2023 things will change. In 2009 the nation elected the first Black president--yet in comics you will be hard pressed to find one OMEGA level black character leading a superhero team. (Luke Cage notwithstanding)

That being said, its still a race issue. Ive walked into some Comic shops and gotten the, "what the hell are you doing in our place" look. And until that type of mentality fades..minority issues will prevail.


Strangely, with Disney's acquisition of Marvel I believe a lot of this Super Hero Stake claiming will end. Disney will force Marvel to open up to a wider audience. Look at Super Hero Squad cartoon--the show features more minority members on its teams than the Avengers or X-men do in the comics.

Finally, when a book like Irredeemable Antman, Deadpool 's first 2 series or the Order fails they just chalk it up to the market. When a Book like Blade fails these same people say, " See, black characters do not do well. Why do they keep pushing them down our throats." Such Hypocritical nonsense

[AllisterH]

re: Deadpool

Marvel is REALLY pushing him...check your google search engine and if you type in "dea", (not even dead), deadpool is the 2nd result and 1st if you type in dead.

That to me anyway, seems to say that marvel is being successful.

[Frank]

I think you're always more interested by a character that you can identity with. It's the same for every elements of entertainment. I started to like Cap as a kid when I discovered he was a blond like me and he was such an inspiring character that I wanted to be like him and modeled my life afterwards after him. I'm not kidding, he was an inspiration. So i'm not surprised that the magority of comic buyers want to read about characters they can most identify with them.

(As a writer it's usualy the opposite, though. You prefer writing on the largest menu possible with various characters from different ages, races, gender, etc...)

[XPac]

I think you're always more interested by a character that you can identity with. It's the same for every elements of entertainment. I started to like Cap as a kid when I discovered he was a blond like me and he was such an inspiring character that I wanted to be like him and modeled my life afterwards after him. I'm not kidding, he was an inspiration. So i'm not surprised that the magority of comic buyers want to read about characters they can most identify with them.

(As a writer it's usualy the opposite, though. You prefer writing on the largest menu possible with various characters from different ages, races, gender, etc...)

Yeah... but do you identity with a character more for their skin color, or for their character?

Yeah, I can understand kids wanting to see a superhero that looks like them.

But for most people of color in the US, is it easier to relate to a hard on his luck guy trying to make ends meet to pay the rent like Peter Parker, or an african king like T'Challa?

I do like the Black Panther... he's cool. But I can honestly say I didn't really feel like the character reflected me in any way. Peter Parker, who looks nothing like me, did a better job of that.

[RolandJP]

Yeah... but do you identity with a character more for their skin color, or for their character?

Yeah, I can understand kids wanting to see a superhero that looks like them.

But for most people of color in the US, is it easier to relate to a hard on his luck guy trying to make ends meet to pay the rent like Peter Parker, or an african king like T'Challa?

I do like the Black Panther... he's cool. But I can honestly say I didn't really feel like the character reflected me in any way. Peter Parker, who looks nothing like me, did a better job of that.


But the problem isnt the disconnect with characterization. Its with Power. Lets face it, Minorites with power scare the hell out of some people. Look at the superhero landscape all the powerful minoritiy characters are Humble or MEEK to the point of insanity.

Can you image a minority hero with Clint Barton's attitude? it would not be accepted.

BP is no more arrogant than Namor or Blackbolt, but you see what happens when the character's braggadocio is shown.

[Frank]

Yeah... but do you identity with a character more for their skin color, or for their character?

Yeah, I can understand kids wanting to see a superhero that looks like them.

But for most people of color in the US, is it easier to relate to a hard on his luck guy trying to make ends meet to pay the rent like Peter Parker, or an african king like T'Challa?

I do like the Black Panther... he's cool. But I can honestly say I didn't really feel like the character reflected me in any way. Peter Parker, who looks nothing like me, did a better job of that.

Yea I mentioned this in the Black Panther thread that the main problem with BP and reading about him is not his color particuarly but mainly it's that he's a king in a "far away land" that most people do not care about. Marvel has had the same problem with Thor. In that if he stays too long in Asgard and doesn't fight super-villains, fans lose interest.

[Frank]

But the problem isnt the disconnect with characterization. Its with Power. Lets face it, Minorites with power scare the hell out of some people. Look at the superhero landscape all the powerful minoritiy characters are Humble or MEEK to the point of insanity.

*facepalm*

Do you see people wanting to read about "Namor in Atlantis"? It has nothing to do with seeing a minority having powers. Jesus, paranoiac, much?

Can you image a minority hero with Clint Barton's attitude? it would not be accepted.

I think he would be accepted. As long as he doesn't whine about his race.

BP is no more arrogant than Namor or Blackbolt, but you see what happens when the character's braggadocio is shown.

Did I just wake up and Namor and BB were great sellers?

[XPac]

But the problem isnt the disconnect with characterization. Its with Power. Lets face it, Minorites with power scare the hell out of some people. Look at the superhero landscape all the powerful minoritiy characters are Humble or MEEK to the point of insanity.

Can you image a minority hero with Clint Barton's attitude? it would not be accepted.

BP is no more arrogant than Namor or Blackbolt, but you see what happens when the character's braggadocio is shown.

I think there are a few exceptions to that.

Storm certainly isn't humble or meek. I think she's the most dominant female in marvel, skin color be damned.

Moninca sort of goes back and forth (interestingly enough, I think one can argue her meekest potrayals were under Hudlin).

[RolandJP]

I think there are a few exceptions to that.

Storm certainly isn't humble or meek. I think she's the most dominant female in marvel, skin color be damned.

Moninca sort of goes back and forth (interestingly enough, I think one can argue her meekest potrayals were under Hudlin).


Storm dominant?? interestingly enough I think one can argue her strongest portrayals were under Hudlin. :tongue:

[XPac]

Storm dominant?? interestingly enough I think one can argue her strongest portrayals were under Hudlin. :tongue:

Storm is absolutely a dominant character.

She was the leader of the X-Men during the book height. Even depowered, she was still a driving force in the book. It wasn't about her powers (which are dam formitable), it was the sheer force of will of the character.

Unfortunately, her best days in that regard are behind her. Which isn't to say that being BP's wife isn't a bad spot... but she's no longer the leader of the comic book industrys top title. Unless they can squeze her into the New Avengers (something I pray for every day), her spotlight is unfortunately dimmed a bit.

[oscarwildebeest]

<sighs> I can only hope people look past race and support the Doctor Voodoo book. But it's probably wishful thinking. :frown:

Oh cool is he getting his own book now that he's Sorcerer Supreme?

[MichaelChen]

Storm was my favorite X-Man as a kid. She was awesome back in the Claremont days. However, she hasn't aged well. In fact, she seems to have aged at exactly the rate that Claremont's quasi-shaksperean style has aged. She was all about being very melodramatic and larger than life, and she doesn't work now that that style of writing no longer works. They've tried to create a new take on her, but so far the efforts have failed. The things that made her work no longer work generally, and so she has become a broken character. :-(

[psycwave]

Oh cool is he getting his own book now that he's Sorcerer Supreme?

Yes he is. Starting in October writtten by Rick Remender. Check it out.

[Fatguy]

Storm was my favorite X-Man as a kid. She was awesome back in the Claremont days. However, she hasn't aged well. In fact, she seems to have aged at exactly the rate that Claremont's quasi-shaksperean style has aged. She was all about being very melodramatic and larger than life, and she doesn't work now that that style of writing no longer works. They've tried to create a new take on her, but so far the efforts have failed. The things that made her work no longer work generally, and so she has become a broken character. :-(

That's actually really well put. I hadnt thought of it like that, but I absolutely agree.

[MichaelChen]

Dr. Voodoo is doomed. Sorcerer characters in general don't sell well. The genre is too much about punching for a character who is about chanting to succeed. Even Harry Potter is actually a mediocre wizard who is more about being a great quidich player and athleting through traps and a warrior's heart than about tremendous magical power. The truly powerful wizards in Harry Potter are villains and supporting characters. And that's in a format, novels, that are kinder to magical characters than comics.

When you add the general distaste for wizards in comics to the minority thing, Doc Voodoo is clearly dooomed.

[Will.S]

It does seem like the only place where minority characters will thrive will be in the X-Men due to it's already built in message and their wild popularity.

I sincerely hope Doctor Voodo succeeds as I'm definitely going to be picking it up although I'd like to see more hispanic superheroes used more often as well.

[XPac]

It does seem like the only place where minority characters will thrive will be in the X-Men due to it's already built in message and their wild popularity.

I sincerely hope Doctor Voodo succeeds as I'm definitely going to be picking it up although I'd like to see more hispanic superheroes used more often as well.

I also think an interest area where minorites have an easier time being incorporated is in alternate universe, where they can show up in the ground floor.

In the Ultimate Universe, we had a black Nick Fury. And I think Wasp was asian... towards the end there, I couldn't tell. In JMS's Supreme Powers, we also had an african american Nighthawk and Blur.

I think that sort of shows us how the comic landscape would look if it started up today, rather than the Silver Age.

[Frank]

That's actually really well put. I hadnt thought of it like that, but I absolutely agree.

Yea he pretty much nailed it. And having her marry BP made it worse, imo. She's become even more of a one note cliche.

[ShaunN]

I think that this is pretty clearly true. Women and minorities and "foreigners" don't sell too well in comics. The likely explanation is the limited range of the comic-buying public.

I don't buy the idea that people only buy what they can "identify" with. I am a non-white male and I could certainly identify with/idolize characters with whom I had nothing in common, at least on the surface. Admirable characters, to me, were admirable, regardless of their gender/race etc. It could be, of course, that people like me had few options, but it may also be that other people are taught not to identify with those people who don't look like them or are not of their gender.

I'm also somewhat ambivalent about the idea of washing the race/ethnicity out of characters who are "different". Yes, I agree that can get quite tiring very quickly. At the same time, however, it may be disingenous to suggest that some of these factors do not matter or do not affect how the character sees the world. But I accept that confronting comic fans with uncomfortable realities might not sell well. At the end of the day, people reveal their attitudes in what they choose to support.

[XPac]

Yea he pretty much nailed it. And having her marry BP made it worse, imo. She's become even more of a one note cliche.

I don't think marrying BP and being put in his book necessarily hurt the character too much, since she frankly wasn't doing a whole lot in the X books anyways.

But I do think there's the potential for Storm to be reduced to just a member of Black Panthers supporting cast, rather than her own indepenent character. I'd always said they should have retitled this book Black Panther and Storm, because she's more than just T'Challa's Mary Jane. She's her own character (who is arguably ABOVE Black Panther on the marvel totem pole), and shouldn't be there just to support the Black Panther character.

I'm not on board with saying that the marriage is necessarily a bad thing for the character, but they DO need to continue to push her character independently and not fall into the trap of making her a side kick.

[Greg Anderson]

Speaking of Storm, when the hell is her Softcover for her last mini coming out?!? :mad:

[Fatguy]

Speaking of Storm, when the hell is her Softcover for her last mini coming out?!? :mad:

Real fans buy hardcovers, poser!

[Greg Anderson]

Real fans buy hardcovers, poser!

Touche, my friend. Touche. :frown:

[Frank]

I don't think marrying BP and being put in his book necessarily hurt the character too much, since she frankly wasn't doing a whole lot in the X books anyways.

But I do think there's the potential for Storm to be reduced to just a member of Black Panthers supporting cast, rather than her own indepenent character. I'd always said they should have retitled this book Black Panther and Storm, because she's more than just T'Challa's Mary Jane. She's her own character (who is arguably ABOVE Black Panther on the marvel totem pole), and shouldn't be there just to support the Black Panther character.

I'm not on board with saying that the marriage is necessarily a bad thing for the character, but they DO need to continue to push her character independently and not fall into the trap of making her a side kick.

I think the marriage was something forced by editorial as a selling point. That's my main thing. Plus Storm has always been better on her own. The best strories that had Storm in it was her finding her own path, discovering herself, whether it was going back to Africa, etc...

As the previous poster said I think Storm didn't work anymore as a character. But the marriage pretty much put the final nail in the coffin of this character.

[C. Earl]

Oddly enough, people don't have identity problems with people who have green, blue, or no skin at all...

Wha's up wit' dat?

[7thangel]

people say more in their comments and words than they realize but i'm not really in the mood, it's draining.

i'll say this though, the readers haven't proven them wrong much like those that watch movies haven't proven them wrong, especially when the patrons ignore and justify casting whitewashing.

personally i don't want non-white characters that are basically white characters with a tan.
i don't want female characters that are basically male characters with tits, vagina and a uterus.
i don't want a lgbt character that is basically a straight character but you know....

there are experiences that help define groups and they shouldn't be washed away just so someone can pretend they're not there. i know there's tons of people that despite the pride they show in telling others that comics are deep, are quick to say they don't want anything to challenge their comfortable view of the default norm and the mere mention of anything dealing with race, sex, orientation or religion get's them in a tizzy about being hit over the head about it. hell, for some the mere creation or inclusion equals 'pc', 'shoehorning', etc and the usual bs.

[Frank]

Shameless, Bruce Banner and Johnny Blaze are W.A.S.P., though.

[Ikonic]

Support Blue Marvel in Marvel.

Support Static in DC.

Great characters who don't fall into the same ol' same ol'.

[Will.S]

I also think an interest area where minorites have an easier time being incorporated is in alternate universe, where they can show up in the ground floor.

In the Ultimate Universe, we had a black Nick Fury. And I think Wasp was asian... towards the end there, I couldn't tell. In JMS's Supreme Powers, we also had an african american Nighthawk and Blur.

I think that sort of shows us how the comic landscape would look if it started up today, rather than the Silver Age.
I think that's certainly a valid point.

[Greg Anderson]

people say more in their comments and words than they realize but i'm not really in the mood, it's draining.

i'll say this though, the readers haven't proven them wrong much like those that watch movies haven't proven them wrong, especially when the patrons ignore and justify casting whitewashing.

personally i don't want non-white characters that are basically white characters with a tan.
i don't want female characters that are basically male characters with tits, vagina and a uterus.
i don't want a lgbt character that is basically a straight character but you know....

there are experiences that help define groups and they shouldn't be washed away just so someone can pretend they're not there. i know there's tons of people that despite the pride they show in telling others that comics are deep, are quick to say they don't want anything to challenge their comfortable view of the default norm and the mere mention of anything dealing with race, sex, orientation or religion get's them in a tizzy about being hit over the head about it. hell, for some the mere creation or inclusion equals 'pc', 'shoehorning', etc and the usual bs.

I like this post.

[StoneGold]

Support Blue Marvel in Marvel.

Support Static in DC.

Great characters who don't fall into the same ol' same ol'.

They both kind of do, though. Static followed the basic Spider-Man archetype, and Blue Marvel is yet another attempt at comic deconstruction. You can argue their merits as good characters (I'd agree with Static more than Blue Marvel, simply by virtue of better writing on the books), but they both fit pretty well into the standard comic archetypes.

[Omega Alpha]

It's not just books with non-white, non-male leads that are hatd sells.
Any book that doesn't star a character that has already been succesfull for decades has basically zero chance of succeeding unles a very A-list creative team is involved.

Yeah, pretty much.

In some cases, I don't think being white makes the character necessarily more popular. For example, Deadpool is most notably for being crazy and having a ridiculous (and funny) uniform. I don't think him being white under the mask influences anything, even because the most notorious physical characterstic of his is that he looks ugly as hell. Ultimate Nick Fury popularity shows the same applies to him. Though obviously characters like Superman or Cap. America would never reach the same level of popularity if they weren't white (not even close).

Storm is absolutely a dominant character.

She was the leader of the X-Men during the book height. Even depowered, she was still a driving force in the book. It wasn't about her powers (which are dam formitable), it was the sheer force of will of the character.

Unfortunately, her best days in that regard are behind her. Which isn't to say that being BP's wife isn't a bad spot... but she's no longer the leader of the comic book industrys top title. Unless they can squeze her into the New Avengers (something I pray for every day), her spotlight is unfortunately dimmed a bit.

She got unlucky because she was stuck with Claremont. Morrison wanted to use her instead of Emma Frost (I wonder if she'd have an affair with Cyke too), and Whedon wanted her to be a part of the AXM team too, but in both cases Claremont had the priority. CC's obvious obsession with her helped her become popular in the 80's, but ended up resulting in her losing a lot of popularity more recently. since I have no doubt that if Whedon was writing her, she wouldn't be removed from X-men, taken by Hudlin, married T'challa, etc.

Not being in the most popular books also meant she was left out of the big events (she barely appeared in both House of M and Utopia, and wasn't a leading character in Messiah Complex) and most acclaimed storylines (such as Morrison's and Whedon's).

And about her mini, it seemingly did alright, but it had X-men on the title, guest starred T'challa and the entire team, etc. X-men characters in general don't do that well solo sales wise.

Storm was my favorite X-Man as a kid. She was awesome back in the Claremont days. However, she hasn't aged well. In fact, she seems to have aged at exactly the rate that Claremont's quasi-shaksperean style has aged. She was all about being very melodramatic and larger than life, and she doesn't work now that that style of writing no longer works. They've tried to create a new take on her, but so far the efforts have failed. The things that made her work no longer work generally, and so she has become a broken character. :-(

That's well put (though personally Storm never ever worked for me).

[RolandJP]

Oddly enough, people don't have identity problems with people who have green, blue, or no skin at all...

Wha's up wit' dat?

That is because blue, green or purple people have no chance of moving into the neighborhoods of the readers who dont support minority characters thats why.

[Kasper Cole]

people say more in their comments and words than they realize but i'm not really in the mood, it's draining.

i'll say this though, the readers haven't proven them wrong much like those that watch movies haven't proven them wrong, especially when the patrons ignore and justify casting whitewashing.

personally i don't want non-white characters that are basically white characters with a tan.
i don't want female characters that are basically male characters with tits, vagina and a uterus.
i don't want a lgbt character that is basically a straight character but you know....

there are experiences that help define groups and they shouldn't be washed away just so someone can pretend they're not there. i know there's tons of people that despite the pride they show in telling others that comics are deep, are quick to say they don't want anything to challenge their comfortable view of the default norm and the mere mention of anything dealing with race, sex, orientation or religion get's them in a tizzy about being hit over the head about it. hell, for some the mere creation or inclusion equals 'pc', 'shoehorning', etc and the usual bs.

Trill post

[XPac]

She got unlucky because she was stuck with Claremont. Morrison wanted to use her instead of Emma Frost (I wonder if she'd have an affair with Cyke too), and Whedon wanted her to be a part of the AXM team too, but in both cases Claremont had the priority. CC's obvious obsession with her helped her become popular in the 80's, but ended up resulting in her losing a lot of popularity more recently. since I have no doubt that if Whedon was writing her, she wouldn't be removed from X-men, taken by Hudlin, married T'challa, etc.

Not being in the most popular books also meant she was left out of the big events (she barely appeared in both House of M and Utopia, and wasn't a leading character in Messiah Complex) and most acclaimed storylines (such as Morrison's and Whedon's).

And about her mini, it seemingly did alright, but it had X-men on the title, guest starred T'challa and the entire team, etc. X-men characters in general don't do that well solo sales wise.



Hmmm... that is interesting.

I LOVE what they've been doing with Emma for the past few years. But I do wonder how the landscape would be different if Storm was basically in her shoes.

Especially if she ended up hooking up with Cyclops... that would have just turned the X world upside down.

On paper I don't think Claremont taking Storm and giving her a team of her own was a bad thing (since Cyclops is pretty much always top dog whenever he's around), but in some ways I do agree it set up for the decline of the character in terms of exposure. It's a shame too because I certainly don't think that's what Claremont wanted. I don't think any writer loved Storm more than him.

[babybro]

people say more in their comments and words than they realize but i'm not really in the mood, it's draining.

i'll say this though, the readers haven't proven them wrong much like those that watch movies haven't proven them wrong, especially when the patrons ignore and justify casting whitewashing.

personally i don't want non-white characters that are basically white characters with a tan.
i don't want female characters that are basically male characters with tits, vagina and a uterus.
i don't want a lgbt character that is basically a straight character but you know....

there are experiences that help define groups and they shouldn't be washed away just so someone can pretend they're not there. i know there's tons of people that despite the pride they show in telling others that comics are deep, are quick to say they don't want anything to challenge their comfortable view of the default norm and the mere mention of anything dealing with race, sex, orientation or religion get's them in a tizzy about being hit over the head about it. hell, for some the mere creation or inclusion equals 'pc', 'shoehorning', etc and the usual bs.

Oh I agree partially, but at the same time there must be diversity within the group.
True, just about everybody goes through experiences within a specific group, but many react differently within that group depending upon familial ties, environment, friends, and etc.

What this boggles down to is that not every comic book character of a specific group should be the same. I don't mind some black characters mentioning about experiences and issues, but I wouldn't want every black character being an archetype of how black they are or how they effect them, yet at the same time, I wouldn't want all black characters to constantly ignore the struggles that they may face for being black.

I can use myself for example. I am black, but adopted by a white family. So my views on IR relationships, IR familial ties of non blood relation, and overall mindset "MIGHT" be entirely different from someone who has a black family and lived in an entirely black neighborhood. But not every character should resemble close to my mindset just like how not every character should reflect to their mindset. (Ex. I can never see someone who I view as a sister as a sort of romantic partner, because if I view them as a sister, they are essentially a sister, even though they aren't blood related. Someone whose not adopted might have a different view.)

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Support Blue Marvel in Marvel.

Support Static in DC.

Great characters who don't fall into the same ol' same ol'.

Nope.

I'll much rather support the characters I want to support, minority or not.


So, Mr. Terrific for DC, and well... I used to like Luke Cage... But I don't like Bendis' version of him. Um... I don't think there's a single minority character I like in Marvel currently.

[Kasper Cole]

Nope.

I'll much rather support the characters I want to support, minority or not.


So, Mr. Terrific for DC, and well... I used to like Luke Cage... But I don't like Bendis' version of him. Um... I don't think there's a single minority character I like in Marvel currently.

You don't like Static?

To me that's like someone saying they don't like Spider-Man. :confused:

[Greg Anderson]

Nope.

I'll much rather support the characters I want to support, minority or not.


So, Mr. Terrific for DC, and well... I used to like Luke Cage... But I don't like Bendis' version of him. Um... I don't think there's a single minority character I like in Marvel currently.

So no love for T'Challa, Storm, about 75% of the X-characters, Brother Voodoo, Photon, female superheroes/villains, etc etc etc?

[Ikonic]

Nope.

I'll much rather support the characters I want to support, minority or not.



Why you felt you had to reply like that I'll never know. Nobody is forcing you to support the particular ones I mentioned. I was making a show of support of characters I like for those who may be interested in such.

[RDMacQ]

I don't agree with this "not supporting minorities comment." If the comic is good, I'll support it, minority or not. The problem is that too often the minority character is written AS a minority character. I liked the Blue Marvel, but it really felt like the story was beating me over the head with racial issues. The same thing with Reginald Hudlind's the Black Panther.

There is also the issue that most of the white character in stories featuring minority characters are demonized to a ridiculous degree. Again, take Reginald Hudlind's Black Panther comic, which had practically no white characters of any morality and even had one white person calling the female residents of Wakanda "jungle bunnies." If we are not supposed to focus on race, stop making all the white people into the automatic bad guys. Like they pointed out on Rescue Me a few years back, other races are capable of being bigots, not just white people.

Also, I don't think it is fair to lay the blame for not supporting minorities squarely on the audience. Face facts- the major icons of the comic industry are white characters. Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Spider-Man, Captain America, Iron Man, Daredevil, the Fantastic Four, the list goes on. And these icons are GOING to attract the biggest name talent, white or black, in one form or another. And the audiences tend to follow the creators- people who like Bendis will follow him onto a book they don't normally read. I'm not much of a Superman fan, but I love Geoff John's, and I loved his run on Superman. It didn't matter that Superman was white. If creators want the audiences to support more minority characters, then they should use their names and their reputation to CREATE and PROMOTE more characters of different races that don't conform to racial stereotypes or even makes race a major issue.

Putting the blame solely on the audience for not supporting minority characters is utter bull@#$%. One of the biggest stars in the world is Will Smith, and his race hasn't stopped scores of movie goers from checking out his films and making millions at the box office. If creators want the audience to support more minority characters, then they should focus on telling entertaining stories with engaging characters WHO JUST HAPPEN to be of another race. People respond to the character and the entertainment value, and shouldn't be GUILTED into buying a product just because the character happens to be of another race other than white male.

[XPac]

I don't agree with this "not supporting minorities comment." If the comic is good, I'll support it, minority or not. The problem is that too often the minority character is written AS a minority character. I liked the Blue Marvel, but it really felt like the story was beating me over the head with racial issues. The same thing with Reginald Hudlind's the Black Panther.

There is also the issue that most of the white character in stories featuring minority characters are demonized to a ridiculous degree. Again, take Reginald Hudlind's Black Panther comic, which had practically no white characters of any morality and even had one white person calling the female residents of Wakanda "jungle bunnies." If we are not supposed to focus on race, stop making all the white people into the automatic bad guys. Like they pointed out on Rescue Me a few years back, other races are capable of being bigots, not just white people.

Also, I don't think it is fair to lay the blame for not supporting minorities squarely on the audience. Face facts- the major icons of the comic industry are white characters. Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Spider-Man, Captain America, Iron Man, Daredevil, the Fantastic Four, the list goes on. And these icons are GOING to attract the biggest name talent, white or black, in one form or another. And the audiences tend to follow the creators- people who like Bendis will follow him onto a book they don't normally read. I'm not much of a Superman fan, but I love Geoff John's, and I loved his run on Superman. It didn't matter that Superman was white. If creators want the audiences to support more minority characters, then they should use their names and their reputation to CREATE and PROMOTE more characters of different races that don't conform to racial stereotypes or even makes race a major issue.

Putting the blame solely on the audience for not supporting minority characters is utter bull@#$%. One of the biggest stars in the world is Will Smith, and his race hasn't stopped scores of movie goers from checking out his films and making millions at the box office. If creators want the audience to support more minority characters, then they should focus on telling entertaining stories with engaging characters WHO JUST HAPPEN to be of another race. People respond to the character and the entertainment value, and shouldn't be GUILTED into buying a product just because the character happens to be of another race other than white male.

I think the commendable thing about Bendis is that he does a pretty solid job of pushing females and characters of color completely under the radar.

If the comic book industry had more Bendis (a thought that frightens a lot of people I'm sure), we'd have more diversity without the additional race card baggage. He's able to avoid the mud that JLA seemed to get bogged down in.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

You don't like Static?

To me that's like someone saying they don't like Spider-Man. :confused:

I don't like Spider-Man. Static is kinda just there to me.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

So no love for T'Challa, Storm, about 75% of the X-characters, Brother Voodoo, Photon, female superheroes/villains, etc etc etc?

I excluded using "female" when it come to minorities, since I support a bunch of female characters already.

I don't like T'Challa, Storm, or the majority of the X-Men.

Brother Voodoo and Photon are currently just neutral to me, though I liked them in the past.


Honestly, I perfectly fine with supporting great characters that need the support, but I'm not gonna support a character because they are a minority, especially when they are written badly.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Why you felt you had to reply like that I'll never know. Nobody is forcing you to support the particular ones I mentioned. I was making a show of support of characters I like for those who may be interested in such.

Ok.

I felt like you were pushing an agenda of some sort (especially with the "same old, same old" part), which agitated me, and so I responded.

You weren't, and I'm sorry.

[RDMacQ]

I think the commendable thing about Bendis is that he does a pretty solid job of pushing females and characters of color completely under the radar.

If the comic book industry had more Bendis (a thought that frightens a lot of people I'm sure), we'd have more diversity without the additional race card baggage. He's able to avoid the mud that JLA seemed to get bogged down in.

And Bendis doesn't do it JUST to have females and minorities- he makes these characters ACTUALLY interesting and fun to read about. The same thing with Geoff John's and Mr. Terrific- his race is the last thing he has focused on with that character, and when he did talk about it, it was context specific. Like when Mr. Terrific went back in time to meet the original Mr. Terrific, and the talk about race basically lasted one panel. I know Mr. Terrific better as a person, what motivates him and how he sees the world, and he is one of my favorite characters on the JSA. His race has nothing to do with that.

And to we really want to have people buy comics featuring minority characters because they are guilted into it? Because they feel they HAVE to buy them, regardless of their quality? If creators want customers to buy more comics with minority characters, then shouldn't they try to make these comics with minorities as entertaining as possible and make the race something that is an afterthought? Robert Heinlein did that all the time- spending a lot of time developing a character, THEN revealing that the character was of another race. Race should be an afterthought. I don't think people were caring about the race of the protagonist of Grand Theft Auto San Andreas- they were excited for the gameplay and the production values.

And that's not even getting into Anime and Manga, all of which feature ASIAN protagonists in one form or another, and is some of the most popular pieces of fiction out there.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Yeah, though black people in superhero comics is a bad situation...


Black people in anime/manga is even worse, IMO.

[Ikonic]

I think the commendable thing about Bendis is that he does a pretty solid job of pushing females and characters of color completely under the radar.

If the comic book industry had more Bendis (a thought that frightens a lot of people I'm sure), we'd have more diversity without the additional race card baggage. He's able to avoid the mud that JLA seemed to get bogged down in.

XPac....I agree with 100%

[worstblogever]

Storm did get her own mini awhile back... not sure how well it did though.

I'll do the legwork.

October 2008
#82 X-Men Worlds Apart #1 $3.99 31,230
November 2008
#98 X-Men Worlds Apart #2 $3.99 26,972 (includes 2nd printing) -4258 -13.6%
December 2008
#112 X Men Worlds Apart #3 $3.99 23,924 -3,048 -11.30%
January 2009
#87 X Men Worlds Apart#4 $3.99 22,146 -1,778 -7.43%


If memory serves here on CBR, in one of the discussion threads (and I may be paraphrasing, forgive me if I am), Chris Yost commented on the sales, and thought this meant it could be awhile before there would be another Storm mini, or ongoing.

[Ikonic]

Ok.

I felt like you were pushing an agenda of some sort (especially with the "same old, same old" part), which agitated me, and so I responded.

You weren't, and I'm sorry.

The "same old, same old" was referring to the typical way black characters are written in comics. (i.e. oympian, gang memeber turned hero, morally superior, sidekick, backup, etc.) And why would it be an "agenda" if the topic is about supporting minorities?

[7thangel]

Oh I agree partially, but at the same time there must be diversity within the group.
True, just about everybody goes through experiences within a specific group, but many react differently within that group depending upon familial ties, environment, friends, and etc.

What this boggles down to is that not every comic book character of a specific group should be the same. I don't mind some black characters mentioning about experiences and issues, but I wouldn't want every black character being an archetype of how black they are or how they effect them, yet at the same time, I wouldn't want all black characters to constantly ignore the struggles that they may face for being black.

I can use myself for example. I am black, but adopted by a white family. So my views on IR relationships, IR familial ties of non blood relation, and overall mindset "MIGHT" be entirely different from someone who has a black family and lived in an entirely black neighborhood. But not every character should resemble close to my mindset just like how not every character should reflect to their mindset. (Ex. I can never see someone who I view as a sister as a sort of romantic partner, because if I view them as a sister, they are essentially a sister, even though they aren't blood related. Someone whose not adopted might have a different view.)

that's only if people choose to see groups as monolithic. there are plenty of different experiences and reactions within groups that are specific to that group. no ones advocating that they all be from the same cookie cutter but even someone like shelby steele will differ from jeb bush even if he deeply wishes it wasn't true, same for andrew sullivan and others.

[XPac]

I'll do the legwork.

October 2008
#82 X-Men Worlds Apart #1 $3.99 31,230
November 2008
#98 X-Men Worlds Apart #2 $3.99 26,972 (includes 2nd printing) -4258 -13.6%
December 2008
#112 X Men Worlds Apart #3 $3.99 23,924 -3,048 -11.30%
January 2009
#87 X Men Worlds Apart#4 $3.99 22,146 -1,778 -7.43%


If memory serves here on CBR, in one of the discussion threads (and I may be paraphrasing, forgive me if I am), Chris Yost commented on the sales, and thought this meant it could be awhile before there would be another Storm mini, or ongoing.

That's too bad. I guess this just wasn't her time.

[babybro]

And Bendis doesn't do it JUST to have females and minorities- he makes these characters ACTUALLY interesting and fun to read about. The same thing with Geoff John's and Mr. Terrific- his race is the last thing he has focused on with that character, and when he did talk about it, it was context specific. Like when Mr. Terrific went back in time to meet the original Mr. Terrific, and the talk about race basically lasted one panel. I know Mr. Terrific better as a person, what motivates him and how he sees the world, and he is one of my favorite characters on the JSA. His race has nothing to do with that.

And to we really want to have people buy comics featuring minority characters because they are guilted into it? Because they feel they HAVE to buy them, regardless of their quality? If creators want customers to buy more comics with minority characters, then shouldn't they try to make these comics with minorities as entertaining as possible and make the race something that is an afterthought? Robert Heinlein did that all the time- spending a lot of time developing a character, THEN revealing that the character was of another race. Race should be an afterthought. I don't think people were caring about the race of the protagonist of Grand Theft Auto San Andreas- they were excited for the gameplay and the production values.

And that's not even getting into Anime and Manga, all of which feature ASIAN protagonists in one form or another, and is some of the most popular pieces of fiction out there.

Sorry man, but you sound exactly like the fans Tom Breevort was mentioning. For one, someone's "race" shouldn't have to be hidden. It really shows your character with the mere discussion of race makes you uncomfortable. Blue Marvel was a fantastic book that did an excellent job of handling race AND being an entertaining book. The problem you have is that you segregate the two, meaning that a book cannot discuss about race and be good at the same time. Either it's about race, or it's a good story, never both.

And he never said anything about being guilted, it's Tom specifically mention that audience who are primarily white cannot relate or be reached by a minority books, or more specifically, they have a much more difficult time doing so, which no matter how much you wish to deny it, is the case primarily with comic book readers. Now you can rebuke it all you want, but they have the evidence, the statistics, and sales by their side, so they can make a much more convincing and suiteable case than you can as just one reader.

Now I'm not saying they are 100% right. I do believe that a small portion of the blame does lay on Marvel, and there is a much bigger problem at DC. But I do agree that the biggest issue does lie with the fans as the fans utterly dictate what is popular and what is not. It's up to the fan to support books with their wallet, as DC and Marvel are only a business.

Lastly, you cannot use Anime or Will Smith as an example as they are completely different to the comic book audience.

With Anime, you have books created by Japan for Japanese people, that have became very popular here in America. But Japan, even though is a international 1st world country, it is not a multicultural country. The population is till essentially 99% Japanese. (And this is fact, as current law dictates that the maximum amount of foreigners they can have is 2% of the full population.) Japan itself contains tons of xenophobic and racist behaviors that are ignored from the public, but to expect Anime or Manga to be as multicultural as American comics is like expecting African Comics to be that way, or Korean, or Italian, or, well you get my drift. One of the key aspects that makes America one of the greatest countries in the world is the fact that we are essentially a melting pot, something that a country the likes of Japan or Korea cannot state. We all are different, yet stand together as Americans, and such our comics should reflect our society that we help built for years.

As for the Will Smith ordeal, once again, incorrect. Will Smith is not limited to the comic book audience, if he was, he wouldn't be no where near the celebrity as he is today. It's a well known fact that out of all the media's out there, the comic book industry hugely lacks far behind movie and television shows. On Television, your almost guarentee to see at least one black person on every show as a supporting character, something that cannot be said for many American Comic books. The reason being? Because television is being exposed to the majority of Americans, and not the small niche and widely considered bigoted community of Comic Book Readers.

So again, Marvel makes a well made and widely accepted point, comic book readers just don't feel minority lead characters or heroes in general.

[worstblogever]

That's too bad. I guess this just wasn't her time.

For my part, I picked it up. It really was a good read, but yeah, it didn't exactly fly off shelves.

[7thangel]

And Bendis doesn't do it JUST to have females and minorities- he makes these characters ACTUALLY interesting and fun to read about. The same thing with Geoff John's and Mr. Terrific- his race is the last thing he has focused on with that character, and when he did talk about it, it was context specific. Like when Mr. Terrific went back in time to meet the original Mr. Terrific, and the talk about race basically lasted one panel. I know Mr. Terrific better as a person, what motivates him and how he sees the world, and he is one of my favorite characters on the JSA. His race has nothing to do with that.

And to we really want to have people buy comics featuring minority characters because they are guilted into it? Because they feel they HAVE to buy them, regardless of their quality? If creators want customers to buy more comics with minority characters, then shouldn't they try to make these comics with minorities as entertaining as possible and make the race something that is an afterthought? Robert Heinlein did that all the time- spending a lot of time developing a character, THEN revealing that the character was of another race. Race should be an afterthought. I don't think people were caring about the race of the protagonist of Grand Theft Auto San Andreas- they were excited for the gameplay and the production values.

And that's not even getting into Anime and Manga, all of which feature ASIAN protagonists in one form or another, and is some of the most popular pieces of fiction out there.

some authors have stated why they chose to wait before revealing the race of the main character or world, because of the need to ease it in for their readers to accept. it's not an afterthought. to this day, it's difficult to get non-white characters on book covers due to that fear, especially in sf/f and ya lit, so sometimes it gets a racechange on the cover or no character is shown.

[XPac]

For my part, I picked it up. It really was a good read, but yeah, it didn't exactly fly off shelves.

Yeah.

I liked it.

But I guess we shouldn't be too surpised. As others have discussed, Storm has been in somewhat of a decline in terms of spotlight for a while.

Hopefully she'll do something more significant in the X books to help prop the character a bit.

[RDMacQ]

Sorry man, but you sound exactly like the fans Tom Breevort was mentioning. For one, someone's "race" shouldn't have to be hidden. It really shows your character with the mere discussion of race makes you uncomfortable. Blue Marvel was a fantastic book that did an excellent job of handling race AND being an entertaining book. The problem you have is that you segregate the two, meaning that a book cannot discuss about race and be good at the same time. Either it's about race, or it's a good story, never both.

And he never said anything about being guilted, it's Tom specifically mention that audience who are primarily white cannot relate or be reached by a minority books, or more specifically, they have a much more difficult time doing so, which no matter how much you wish to deny it, is the case primarily with comic book readers. Now you can rebuke it all you want, but they have the evidence, the statistics, and sales by their side, so they can make a much more convincing and suiteable case than you can as just one reader.

Now I'm not saying they are 100% right. I do believe that a small portion of the blame does lay on Marvel, and there is a much bigger problem at DC. But I do agree that the biggest issue does lie with the fans as the fans utterly dictate what is popular and what is not. It's up to the fan to support books with their wallet, as DC and Marvel are only a business.

Lastly, you cannot use Anime or Will Smith as an example as they are completely different to the comic book audience.

With Anime, you have books created by Japan for Japanese people, that have became very popular here in America. But Japan, even though is a international 1st world country, it is not a multicultural country. The population is till essentially 99% Japanese. (And this is fact, as current law dictates that the maximum amount of foreigners they can have is 2% of the full population.) Japan itself contains tons of xenophobic and racist behaviors that are ignored from the public, but to expect Anime or Manga to be as multicultural as American comics is like expecting African Comics to be that way, or Korean, or Italian, or, well you get my drift. One of the key aspects that makes America one of the greatest countries in the world is the fact that we are essentially a melting pot, something that a country the likes of Japan or Korea cannot state. We all are different, yet stand together as Americans, and such our comics should reflect our society that we help built for years.

As for the Will Smith ordeal, once again, incorrect. Will Smith is not limited to the comic book audience, if he was, he wouldn't be no where near the celebrity as he is today. It's a well known fact that out of all the media's out there, the comic book industry hugely lacks far behind movie and television shows. On Television, your almost guarentee to see at least one black person on every show as a supporting character, something that cannot be said for many American Comic books. The reason being? Because television is being exposed to the majority of Americans, and not the small niche and widely considered bigoted community of Comic Book Readers.

So again, Marvel makes a well made and widely accepted point, comic book readers just don't feel minority lead characters or heroes in general.

I'm not saying race has to be hidden. But if the creators don't want a comic to be judged solely on the race of the protagonist, then they shouldn't make the character's race a principle issue. Again, take Reginald Hudlind's Black Panther- I decided to check it out because Reggie seemed to have an interesting take on the character in his interviews leading up to the comic and I like JRJr's art. I read the first arc, and I hated it. The characterizations were bland, the action was uninteresting and the story just plain lackluster. It had nothing to do with the Black Panther's race.

It's just as ludicrous as saying that something featuring a female protagonist is going to fail because the audience is primarily male. One of my favorite shows was Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and I liked it because of the quality of the writing and acting and the strength of the action scenes. The fact that the protagonist was female wasn't a big deal for me- it certainly didn't stop me from becoming a fan, because they were dealing with issues that were universal to both sexes.

And I believe that comics can discuss race, and do it intelligently. Geoff John's did an interesting issue of Superman tackling the topic of race relations, and shied away from any clear cut answers. But the problem is that whenever a comic does decide to tackle an issue such as this, they tend to beat people over the head with the issues to the point of numbness and have a very black and white view on the matter (pardon the pun.) I like being informed, but I don't like being preached to.

I think the audience is a lot more open to having protagonists of different races than the creators are willing to admit. Heck, the Savage Dragon has a GREEN protagonist, and that hasn't stopped that book from becoming a cult favorite. Pinning the blame on the audience is pretty easy. It means that the fault is not on the creators for not CREATING works with more minorities, but for the audience for not accepting them. If the creators want to see more minorities in comics, then they should create works with more minority characters in principal positions. I'd buy the comics if I heard it was any good and if I liked the creators involved, and I feel that other fans also respond to the same quality. But I'm not going to take the blame for the creators defeatist attitude and their poor perception of the audience. I doubt if there was a comic written by Geoff John's and drawn by Jim Lee that retailers would turn it away because it featured a black man as the protagonist.

[RolandJP]

I excluded using "female" when it come to minorities, since I support a bunch of female characters already.

I don't like T'Challa, Storm, or the majority of the X-Men.

Brother Voodoo and Photon are currently just neutral to me, though I liked them in the past.


Honestly, I perfectly fine with supporting great characters that need the support, but I'm not gonna support a character because they are a minority, especially when they are written badly.

Okay what books with minorities have you supported? Excluding team books with rare minority spotlighted characters.

War Machine by Greg Pak was/is well written same for Christopher Priest's Black Panther but the audience for the later was around 15,000.


I'll do the legwork.

October 2008
#82 X-Men Worlds Apart #1 $3.99 31,230
November 2008
#98 X-Men Worlds Apart #2 $3.99 26,972 (includes 2nd printing) -4258 -13.6%
December 2008
#112 X Men Worlds Apart #3 $3.99 23,924 -3,048 -11.30%
January 2009
#87 X Men Worlds Apart#4 $3.99 22,146 -1,778 -7.43%


If memory serves here on CBR, in one of the discussion threads (and I may be paraphrasing, forgive me if I am), Chris Yost commented on the sales, and thought this meant it could be awhile before there would be another Storm mini, or ongoing.

edited 4 snark.

Has there ever been a minority hero ongoing that got broad support??

Also why is that minorities have no problem reading about white heroes but the other way around is such a chore?

[RDMacQ]

some authors have stated why they chose to wait before revealing the race of the main character or world, because of the need to ease it in for their readers to accept. it's not an afterthought. to this day, it's difficult to get non-white characters on book covers due to that fear, especially in sf/f and ya lit, so sometimes it gets a racechange on the cover or no character is shown.

But then the creators are MAKING race into an issue, by deliberately withholding that information from the audience. And in a day and age when you have characters with full face masks (like Spider-Man or Deadpool) or a completely different colored skin altogether (like Hulk or Savage Dragon) or are even inhuman (Ghost Rider) and they can sell comics, I highly doubt that putting a black man or an asian man on the cover of a comic will turn people off. One of my favorite books right now is Agents of Atlas, featuring Jimmy Woo as the main character. And I love it, and I love Jimmy as a character. His asian nationality is PART of his character, but it isn't WHO he is completely. I have no problem accepting him as a main character, and have no trouble relating with him and liking him as a character. And back in the day, Marv Wolfman made it a point to NOT make race or sex an issue when creating new characters for the New Teen Titans. That's why Cyborg is just called "Cyborg," and the same goes for Starfire and Raven. Race wasn't a big issue because Marv didn't MAKE it into a big issue. Cyborg was black, but there was so much more to his character than just that.

[illikaspain]

Im not even going to lie they it don't please me with the handling of our characters they have Proton with Omega Level powers and don't utilize her at all she clearly one of the powerful beings in Marvel Universe and keep getting her take by other people straight up disrespect, another Omega Level being Storm now I know she's married and I love it with T'Challa and I don't care if others don't like it is what it is... it seems that people that be want her to be with Wolverine and be one of his little hoes on the side she moved on to be a Queen get over it!!! But anyway for as War Machine they totally fuck him up what's with the cyborg thing they totally wouldn't did that shit with Capitan America or Wolverine...straight disrespect!
I see that they alway going to put non- white character on the back burner! I mean okay they throw us Blue Marvel, Bishop, Luke Cage,Black Panther and etc...writers and artist they not really feeling minority characters that not Captain America, Emma Frost and Wolverine because they either fantasize about being these people are sleeping with them! And don't be fool by them throwing a bone like a mini series they only doing it for sales so they...so people won't say that they don't have diversity in Marvels which they do back do they really use them!

[RolandJP]

But then the creators are MAKING race into an issue, by deliberately withholding that information from the audience. And in a day and age when you have characters with full face masks (like Spider-Man or Deadpool) or a completely different colored skin altogether (like Hulk or Savage Dragon) or are even inhuman (Ghost Rider) and they can sell comics, I highly doubt that putting a black man or an asian man on the cover of a comic will turn people off. One of my favorite books right now is Agents of Atlas, featuring Jimmy Woo as the main character. And I love it, and I love Jimmy as a character. His asian nationality is PART of his character, but it isn't WHO he is completely. I have no problem accepting him as a main character, and have no trouble relating with him and liking him as a character. And back in the day, Marv Wolfman made it a point to NOT make race or sex an issue when creating new characters for the New Teen Titans. That's why Cyborg is just called "Cyborg," and the same goes for Starfire and Raven. Race wasn't a big issue because Marv didn't MAKE it into a big issue. Cyborg was black, but there was so much more to his character than just that.


I am sorry but I have to disagree. I know for a fact a black face on a cover = less sales.

Except for the Spiderman Obama inaugural issue..


Comics are segregated form of literature. Movies, Video Games, and TV are less so. That is why they see major bucks.

A Selena Gomez comic wouldnt survive 2 issues but on TV she strives. Same for "thats So Raven" and other Disney programs.

[RDMacQ]

I am sorry but I have to disagree. I know for a fact a black face on a cover = less sales.

Except for the Obama inaugural issue..

But doesn't that prove that a black face on the cover wouldn't affect sales?

And are you saying that having Storm on the cover of an X-Men comic would cause that comic to sell less?

[4sake]

Yeah... but do you identity with a character more for their skin color, or for their character?

Yeah, I can understand kids wanting to see a superhero that looks like them.

But for most people of color in the US, is it easier to relate to a hard on his luck guy trying to make ends meet to pay the rent like Peter Parker, or an african king like T'Challa?

I do like the Black Panther... he's cool. But I can honestly say I didn't really feel like the character reflected me in any way. Peter Parker, who looks nothing like me, did a better job of that.

I relate more to T'Challa than to Peter. :cool:

[7thangel]

But doesn't that prove that a black face on the cover wouldn't affect sales?


not in the least bit.
if you want you can try and find out about the politics and sales (and position/area on shelfs in bookstores) in regards to book covers and race in a medium that dwarfs comics in readership and sales. the fight authors of colour and those that are white with their publishers about the art and about their novels that feature non-white protagonists (lord forbid there be more than a couple). the further issues, if their lucky to get an adaptation, to keep the characters the same colour, sex, or orientation when the issue of appeal, sales and perception is brought up by the powers that be..

[RDMacQ]

not in the least bit.
if you want you can try and find out about the politics and sales (and position/area on shelfs in bookstores) in regards to book covers and race in a medium that dwarfs comics in readership and sales. the fight authors of colour and those that are white with their publishers about the art and about their novels that feature non-white protagonists (lord forbid there be more than a couple). the further issues, if their lucky to get an adaptation, to keep the characters the same colour, sex, or orientation when the issue of appeal, sales and perception is brought up by the powers that be..

Still sounds like it is a problem that is on the creative end of things- and their expectations from how they THINK the audience will react- rather than from the audience.

[Vic Vega]

I blame a lot of this on the Direct Sales Market.

Back in the days of newstand distrbution Marvel and D.C.had a broader market to consider and they did market to it how ever crude the attempts were. That's how you get a Luke Cage or a Black Lightning in the first place.

But now because of the Direct Sales market, Marvel and D.C. have basically become used to targeting the standard comics audience: that is mostly aging white fanboys. Moreover, the creative staff on most of these books are demographically identical to the fanbase.

So in effect its a closed in group selling stuff it already knows it likes to itself.

Marvel and D.C. are seriously ill-equipped to broaden thier market (tho with Vertigo, you can see D.C. is trying). And with rare exception they dont even try.

Look at Arana: targeted to a young Latina audience that probably naver even knew the book existed. I don't think Marvel ever advertised Black Panther or War Machine in The Source or XXL. We know Hip-Hop heads like Comic books look at M.F. Doom for one thing. It might be useful to try to market to that audience.

[worstblogever]

Has there ever been a minority hero ongoing that got broad support??

Also why is that minorities have no problem reading about white heroes but the other way around is such a chore?

Okay, back up.

I just said I bought the Storm mini. I'm not a minority, last I checked (I just wish, I'd have gotten more college scholarships) and I supported it within 2 posts of discussing its lower-than-expected sales. What matters to me, when I buy a title, isn't the color of the hero, or heroine's skin, but how well they're written.

But what are you on about with "broad support"? From fans, or the company?

And, as far as anyone blaming lower sales on non-minorities not buying the titles. How does anyone know, by ethnicity, who's buying titles, other than baseless assumption?

[7thangel]

has marvel and dc done anything significant to attract the hip hop nation? and collaborations? have they even tried to change how they do business? the fact that they lost a huge market of folks to manga, specifically women and non-whites, it should have been a wake up call not only for them but for the retailers as well.

if this is still being discussed tomorrow i'll be back but i'm out. tonight is about getting some pum pum, the almighty chocha

[worstblogever]

has marvel and dc done anything significant to attract the hip hop nation? and collaborations? have they even tried to change how they do business? the fact that they lost a huge market of folks to manga, specifically women and non-whites, it should have been a wake up call not only for them but for the retailers as well.

if this is still being discussed tomorrow i'll be back but i'm out. tonight is about getting some pum pum, the almighty chocha

Arguably, yes.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CGdbWRAh_KI/SXfH3lWnJHI/AAAAAAAAA_o/y5EwwVP9mpk/s400/house+party

[Frank]

I think the commendable thing about Bendis is that he does a pretty solid job of pushing females and characters of color completely under the radar.

If the comic book industry had more Bendis (a thought that frightens a lot of people I'm sure), we'd have more diversity without the additional race card baggage. He's able to avoid the mud that JLA seemed to get bogged down in.

Heck he does probably too much. Especially with the women. The guy has practically a vagina. :biggrin:

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Okay what books with minorities have you supported? Excluding team books with rare minority spotlighted characters.

War Machine by Greg Pak was/is well written same for Christopher Priest's Black Panther but the audience for the later was around 15,000.


This is without adding women to the "minority" list.

Blue Beetle for a while.

Checkmate was mostly a Mr. Terrific book.

Firestorm when Jason was in it.

Spawn for a while, but then I stopped when I slowly learned that Al Simmons' a loser.

Unknown Soldier.

Mangas in general, if that counts

Current Detective Comics

Dropped Blue Marvel.

Luke Cage Noir



But to be honest, most of the minority characters that do get titles just so happen to be the ones I have no interest in, or just plain don't like.

[Mr. Noodle]

Brevoort's comments reflect the small-mindedness of a tiresome New York leftist.

If Marvel was headquartered in Nairobi and mainly sold to the African continent, all their lead characters would be dark-skinned in some way or another. If Marvel was headquartered in Bangkok, all their lead characters would be Asians. If Marvel was headquartered in New Dehli, all their lead characters would be Indian. That's just the way of the world. But it does not automatically mean that the ethnic majorities of those continents or nations hate everybody else.

That's the slander that leftists always throw at people -- that emotionally identifying with a character because he or she is very similar to you is racist. But you don't see Bollywood casting too many red-headed white farm boys from Iowa in their musicals, do you?

Nor would I expect them to.

Nor do I resent them for not doing so.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Okay what books with minorities have you supported? Excluding team books with rare minority spotlighted characters.

War Machine by Greg Pak was/is well written same for Christopher Priest's Black Panther but the audience for the later was around 15,000.

War Machine just wasn't a very good book. I was excited as hell after the initial preview and the art was gorgeous, but the story was just so average that I dropped it after issue #2.

I am holding out hope in my dream of dreams though that DC gives Amanda Waller her own book. She's a Twofer and one of the most interesting characters in comics.

And if we're discussing books that deal with race and are entertaining, then the one that everyone should be reading regardless of whatever demographic you pigeonhole yourself as is Unknown Soldier. Bar none the best book on race relations, the 3rd world, violence, and imperialism I'm reading.

[XPac]

War Machine just wasn't a very good book. I was excited as hell after the initial preview and the art was gorgeous, but the story was just so average that I dropped it after issue #2.

I am holding out hope in my dream of dreams though that DC gives Amanda Waller her own book. She's a Twofer and one of the most interesting characters in comics.

And if we're discussing books that deal with race and are entertaining, then the one that everyone should be reading regardless of whatever demographic you pigeonhole yourself as is Unknown Soldier. Bar none the best book on race relations, the 3rd world, violence, and imperialism I'm reading.

Amanda Waller does rock. To talk down Batman is just scary.

And I think that's a good example of how to sneak a minority character in stories without having to have them carry a title.

Throw in more female and minority supporting character, but make them more than just window dressing. Give them important roles. Brand and Hill are more examples of new characters that get a lot of spotlight and are used. I'm starting to think the scariest thing in all of comics are women in government.

Ultimate Nick Fury is another example of a minority character used well. He's arguably the most important character in the Ultimate Universe, and he doesn't even have his own title.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

As bad as the 90s were we have to remember that an African American Character had one of the best selling books of the era with a character that broke through in film and television for more mature audienced defying the idea that comics are for kids. Granted he had a full face mask and looked like a burn victim when he took it off, he was also created by one of the most popular artists of the time, but SPAWN really showed the industry that fans are ready to embrace New characters that are of a different background. Maybe he used up all the ehnicpoints, but it was a bit refreshing and good while it lasted.

[RolandJP]

Brevoort's comments reflect the small-mindedness of a tiresome New York leftist.

If Marvel was headquartered in Nairobi and mainly sold to the African continent, all their lead characters would be dark-skinned in some way or another. If Marvel was headquartered in Bangkok, all their lead characters would be Asians. If Marvel was headquartered in New Dehli, all their lead characters would be Indian. That's just the way of the world. But it does not automatically mean that the ethnic majorities of those continents or nations hate everybody else.

That's the slander that leftists always throw at people -- that emotionally identifying with a character because he or she is very similar to you is racist. But you don't see Bollywood casting too many red-headed white farm boys from Iowa in their musicals, do you?

Nor would I expect them to.

Nor do I resent them for not doing so.

Yeah but this nation is one third minority. And women constitute 70% of literature IE Book purchasers.

So I am saying there is something wrong with the comic industry business model. No wonder the market is shrinking.

I think Vega is on point, tho. Marvel needs to place ads in XXL and the Source. How do you broaden your buyers.. By Broadening your advertisement and product. Can you imagine Coke or Pepsi cutting back there commercials to just MTV. Then deciding they will market their drinks to one demographic.

That doesnt make any business sense.


Will Smith's movie Hancock made more than Superman returns. The 3 Blade movies made more than Daredevil, Elektra, and Ghost Rider combined. Why is there such a drop off in the comics industry. I mean lets be frank, Ive seen some rude reactions from some comic fans when they find out a creator on a book they have read is a minority.

[XPac]

Yeah but this nation is one third minority. And women constitute 70% of literature IE Book purchasers.

So I am saying there is something wrong with the comic industry business model. No wonder the market is shrinking.

I think Vega is on point, tho. Marvel needs to place ads in XXL and the Source. How do you broaden your buyers.. By Broadening your advertisement and product. Can you imagine Coke or Pepsi cutting back there commercials to just MTV. Then deciding they will market their drinks to one demographic.

That doesnt make any business sense.


Will Smith's movie Hancock made more than Superman returns. The 3 Blade movies made more than Daredevil, Elektra, and Ghost Rider combined. Why is there such a drop off in the comics industry. I mean lets be frank, Ive seen some rude reactions from some comic fans when they find out a creator on a book they have read is a minority.

I honestly don't think advertising to adults (ethnic or otherwise) is necessarily going to work though. Maybe I'm wrong... but I don't think you can get adults to read comics if it wasn't something they were interested in as kids.

I think they need to take a page from the cigarette industry and target kids.

[RolandJP]

I honestly don't think advertising to adults (ethnic or otherwise) is necessarily going to work though. Maybe I'm wrong... but I don't think you can get adults to read comics if it wasn't something they were interested in as kids.

I think they need to take a page from the cigarette industry and target kids.

You think Adults by XXL or the Source or Slam magazine. really? wow

[babybro]

I'm not saying race has to be hidden. But if the creators don't want a comic to be judged solely on the race of the protagonist, then they shouldn't make the character's race a principle issue. Again, take Reginald Hudlind's Black Panther- I decided to check it out because Reggie seemed to have an interesting take on the character in his interviews leading up to the comic and I like JRJr's art. I read the first arc, and I hated it. The characterizations were bland, the action was uninteresting and the story just plain lackluster. It had nothing to do with the Black Panther's race.

It's just as ludicrous as saying that something featuring a female protagonist is going to fail because the audience is primarily male. One of my favorite shows was Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and I liked it because of the quality of the writing and acting and the strength of the action scenes. The fact that the protagonist was female wasn't a big deal for me- it certainly didn't stop me from becoming a fan, because they were dealing with issues that were universal to both sexes.

And I believe that comics can discuss race, and do it intelligently. Geoff John's did an interesting issue of Superman tackling the topic of race relations, and shied away from any clear cut answers. But the problem is that whenever a comic does decide to tackle an issue such as this, they tend to beat people over the head with the issues to the point of numbness and have a very black and white view on the matter (pardon the pun.) I like being informed, but I don't like being preached to.

I think the audience is a lot more open to having protagonists of different races than the creators are willing to admit. Heck, the Savage Dragon has a GREEN protagonist, and that hasn't stopped that book from becoming a cult favorite. Pinning the blame on the audience is pretty easy. It means that the fault is not on the creators for not CREATING works with more minorities, but for the audience for not accepting them. If the creators want to see more minorities in comics, then they should create works with more minority characters in principal positions. I'd buy the comics if I heard it was any good and if I liked the creators involved, and I feel that other fans also respond to the same quality. But I'm not going to take the blame for the creators defeatist attitude and their poor perception of the audience. I doubt if there was a comic written by Geoff John's and drawn by Jim Lee that retailers would turn it away because it featured a black man as the protagonist.


Ah but there is a huge difference between a principle issue and the sole issue. Just because a comic makes race a principle issue does not mean it's the only issue to be discussed about. You can have more than one principle issue. A lot of people seem to have a problem with hudlin's work which I respect, but that doesn't mean another chance shouldn't be given to the character once that creative team you dispised have left? If you originally enjoyed the character, than that means a writer is going to come in and do the character right. Because there will always be writers who get the character. I'm not saying hudlin didn't get the character, because many would mention otherwise, but if 'you" personally
didn't enjoy hudlin's work, than the problem lies with the creative team, not the character.

As for the discussion of race, the only way I can see that happening is if they go over the exact same topic almost the exact same way almost throughout the book. That, however, I have rarely seen happen. Now I'm not sure what you are referring to in regards to black or white instead of shades of grey, but I'll you explain that part before I continue further with the comment.

And in regards to you talking about Green. Of course you don't have to worry much about green, or purple, or blue, because they don't exist in real life. Minorities do, so it's much easier to accept someone if they don't exist or mimic your appearance. An excellent example of this is Superman. Technically, he's kryptonian, not white or any human breed. Yet if he was black, he would not reach no where near the success he has today. So it clearly shows that character appearance does play a role.

Now as I mention before, I definitely agree creators "partially play a role." They do need more minority characters IMO as well as place the minority characters they do have in larger role, but I still continue with the belief that the audience plays the largest role. An excellent example of this is the comic Josaih, Red, White and Black. This books was widely considered a writing success, perhaps the most successful books out to deal with race, and receive raving rooms from many writers including Alan Moore, and yet sales wise, this book was "barely" consider a success, with some even considering it a failure in regards to sales. Plus, not only do you have creators making these statements, but you have retailers making these statements. Review Mark Waids remark in regards to how retailers feel towards receiving non-white books. It clearly show that the reason retailers have problems (not the creators but retailers such as walmart and etc.) is because they believe the community would not accept these books.

So not only do you have creators and publishers making these remarks, you have retailers believing the same thing. So it is safe to say that there is probably a lot of truth with what they are saying. Now of course, this doesn't mean that "you personally" are included in this audience. But I'm sure all sides wouldn't be making these statements if there wasn't truth involved with them.

[babybro]

But doesn't that prove that a black face on the cover wouldn't affect sales?

And are you saying that having Storm on the cover of an X-Men comic would cause that comic to sell less?

Again, do research on Josaiah Powers Red White and Black, which essentially does prove the point.

[RDMacQ]

Ah but there is a huge difference between a principle issue and the sole issue. Just because a comic makes race a principle issue does not mean it's the only issue to be discussed about. You can have more than one principle issue. A lot of people seem to have a problem with hudlin's work which I respect, but that doesn't mean another chance shouldn't be given to the character once that creative team you dispised have left? If you originally enjoyed the character, than that means a writer is going to come in and do the character right. Because there will always be writers who get the character. I'm not saying hudlin didn't get the character, because many would mention otherwise, but if 'you" personally
didn't enjoy hudlin's work, than the problem lies with the creative team, not the character.

If I enjoy the creative team, yes. My problem isn't with the character, but the creative team. But I've never really been a big fan of the Black Panther because he hasn't been in too many stories. I've enjoyed him when he was part of Geoff John's Avengers, but I have a hard time getting behind the character. Partly because he is a king from a fictional character. I also have the same problem with a character like Namor. I haven't heard much about the new creative team on the book, good or bad, so I'm not going to alter my buying habits to pick up The Black Panther. And I don't want to feel guilted into buying it because it stars a minority character, and its a shame that as a white person I don't buy enough series with minority characters.

As for the discussion of race, the only way I can see that happening is if they go over the exact same topic almost the exact same way almost throughout the book. That, however, I have rarely seen happen. Now I'm not sure what you are referring to in regards to black or white instead of shades of grey, but I'll you explain that part before I continue further with the comment.

Well, again I'll use the Reginald Hudlind example and his initial arc on the Black Panther, where most of the bad guys were white and all the good guys were black. In and of itself, I have no problem with that. But Hudlind goes out of his way to paint the white characters in such a stereotypical light that it is almost laughable. Again, one character even calls the females of Wakanda "jungle bunnies." Plus, the only character on the bad guys side who is against the idea is black. It's kind of hard to take the discussion seriously when the its divided in such stark terms. I liked what was did in the Blue Marvel series, where someone like Dum Dum Dugan is confronted about what went on in the past- he is a good man, but has a hard time explaining his actions regarding the past. It's not clear here if Dum Dum was the "good guy" or the "bad guy," and that I feel is a more interesting debate. However, the series didn't stay on that point for very long.

And in regards to you talking about Green. Of course you don't have to worry much about green, or purple, or blue, because they don't exist in real life. Minorities do, so it's much easier to accept someone if they don't exist or mimic your appearance. An excellent example of this is Superman. Technically, he's kryptonian, not white or any human breed. Yet if he was black, he would not reach no where near the success he has today. So it clearly shows that character appearance does play a role.

That is a good point. However, take a film like Hancock, which features a black Superman like character. Audiences had no problem going to see that film, and it was relatively successful. Superman was created at a different time, when race relations were much different. Nowadays, I believe that the values in society have shifted to the point when a character can be successful, regardless of their race. The point is not to create a character that IS black, or IS asian, but to create characters that HAPPEN to be black, or asian, or whatever.



But again, that is a book that put race at the forefront of the issue. Some people don't want to be preached to. Comics are an entertainment industry, people are going to be drawn to the series that looks to hold the most entertainment value. Just look at film. It's like how a film like I Am Legend can be more successful financial than a film like Babel. Babel deals with more "issues" than I Am Legend, but people will go to I Am Legend because they are looking for a diversion, not an education. The same goes for comics- people are looking to primarily be entertained, not "educated." I'd rather have someone buy a comic because they WANTED to buy it, not because they felt OBLIGATED to buy it.

[Quote] So not only do you have creators and publishers making these remarks, you have retailers believing the same thing. So it is safe to say that there is probably a lot of truth with what they are saying. Now of course, this doesn't mean that "you personally" are included in this audience. But I'm sure all sides wouldn't be making these statements if there wasn't truth involved with them.

Well, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Retailers won't display works featuring minority characters because they feel they won't sell, so creators and publishers won't create them. And the reason that creators and publishers won't create them is because retailers feel they won't sell. All there needs to be is one example to disprove this theory wrong. Like how the idea of an action series with a female lead couldn't appeal to a large audience- then Buffy proved that wrong. I'd also say that there would be people who would have argued that an American audience wouldn't accept a series that didn't have an American as the star, yet the biggest star at Marvel is Wolverine- a Canadian. The cycle will keep feeding itself, until something comes along to break people's pre-conceived notions regarding the subject matter.

[hohenheim1]

As a Hispanic-American I am somewhat disappointed in the lack of minorities in comics. I say somewhat because it's not always the lack of popularity minority characters have in comics, part of it boils down to the quality of the writing. I have to commend DC and Giffen's work on Blue Beetle with Jamie Reyes taking in the scarab. The series was canceled due to poor sales, but I believe it became unpopular after Giffen left the book (#10).

An ongoing series I look forward to every month is Scalped by Vertigo. The main character, Dashiell Bad Horse, and most of the characters in this series are of Native American descent. Now if it weren't for the work of Jason Aaron and R.M. Guera, I probably wouldn't be reading it. They succeed because of their talent and wished Vertigo would advertise it more.

If DC and Marvel wanted a minority character in a 'majority' position like Superman, Batman, Wolverine etc. it would work but they can't be limited by stories that revolve around poverty and crime. This new character would need the writing talent and more importantly the vision to appeal to a mass audience.

[babybro]

If I enjoy the creative team, yes. My problem isn't with the character, but the creative team. But I've never really been a big fan of the Black Panther because he hasn't been in too many stories. I've enjoyed him when he was part of Geoff John's Avengers, but I have a hard time getting behind the character. Partly because he is a king from a fictional character. I also have the same problem with a character like Namor. I haven't heard much about the new creative team on the book, good or bad, so I'm not going to alter my buying habits to pick up The Black Panther. And I don't want to feel guilted into buying it because it stars a minority character, and its a shame that as a white person I don't buy enough series with minority characters.

No one is trying to guilt someone into buying one because it stars a minority character, what is being shown is the biased nature that the comic book audience seem to have to non-white heroes. It is up to the readers themselves to figure out how they decipher this piece of information, and will they be making any changes because of it. Most likely not, as it's been well shown that the comic book audience that marvel and dc are currently set in their ways. The creators are merely explaining the truth, it's up to the readers to determine what to do with it.



Well, again I'll use the Reginald Hudlind example and his initial arc on the Black Panther, where most of the bad guys were white and all the good guys were black. In and of itself, I have no problem with that. But Hudlind goes out of his way to paint the white characters in such a stereotypical light that it is almost laughable. Again, one character even calls the females of Wakanda "jungle bunnies." Plus, the only character on the bad guys side who is against the idea is black. It's kind of hard to take the discussion seriously when the its divided in such stark terms. I liked what was did in the Blue Marvel series, where someone like Dum Dum Dugan is confronted about what went on in the past- he is a good man, but has a hard time explaining his actions regarding the past. It's not clear here if Dum Dum was the "good guy" or the "bad guy," and that I feel is a more interesting debate. However, the series didn't stay on that point for very long.

Well I never read Hudlin's work. But if what you say is the truth than I can definitely see why Hudlin has such a negative reputation. There are ways to integrate race into the picture and with if he did perform such a one sided biased view, he deserved everything he receive. In regards to Blue Marvel, Dum Dum was primarily a NPC per say, but did provide an interesting picture of his mindset back than. However, it was important to note the time frame in which they were in. Of course, since the majority of the scenes were flashbacks, they had to be honest with what happened. What could be painted as good guy bad guy routine in the present would not work with what happened in the past. What was wrong was clearly wrong, and to shy away from that would've been not only a disservice to the character, but a disservice to the entire civil rights movement.
The excellent thing about blue marvel is the discussion about race evolved. It didn't stick to one topic, but reach across multiple topics and such primarily showed just one person's mindset.



That is a good point. However, take a film like Hancock, which features a black Superman like character. Audiences had no problem going to see that film, and it was relatively successful. Superman was created at a different time, when race relations were much different. Nowadays, I believe that the values in society have shifted to the point when a character can be successful, regardless of their race. The point is not to create a character that IS black, or IS asian, but to create characters that HAPPEN to be black, or asian, or whatever.

Again, you can't use Hancock as an example. Your talking about two COMPLETELY different demographics. With movies, you are open to the entire population of the US just about, with comics, well as you know, is a very niche small field almost entirely read by non-white male readers. Demographics show the difference between the two. Now if we stick to comics, let's examine the front. You have Icon, who was created by milestone is an alien like superman, but different as well. But it clearly did not reach the levels of Superman, or anywhere close. Than you have Blue Marvel, who is to this date, barely known by anybody. Often, when the top 10 strongest are given, Blue Marvel is rarely considered on anybody's list, even though he is by far one of the strongest people in Marvel. So by keeping it "within comics" you can truly see the point that
Tom was talking about.

[
But again, that is a book that put race at the forefront of the issue. Some people don't want to be preached to. Comics are an entertainment industry, people are going to be drawn to the series that looks to hold the most entertainment value. Just look at film. It's like how a film like I Am Legend can be more successful financial than a film like Babel. Babel deals with more "issues" than I Am Legend, but people will go to I Am Legend because they are looking for a diversion, not an education. The same goes for comics- people are looking to primarily be entertained, not "educated." I'd rather have someone buy a comic because they WANTED to buy it, not because they felt OBLIGATED to buy it.

But nobody is being preached to. It's those reader that feels like they are being preached to when frankly, their story being told is no different than spider-man stopping green goblin from robbing the bank. This isn't a biography, or a non-fiction, this is comics. And such there is no education evolve with the events that happen with Josaiah. Why? Because he is not real. What this does show, however, is the comic book population fear of dealing with anything racial related.
If people actually read the book, they would realize that Captain America played a huge and GOOD point in the story. But of course, this is sidestep because people blow it off, with one main aspect being that it has a black face, with the race related topics being another. Marvel has always pride itself for being the more humanistic and realistic of the big two, and such having topics dealing with race is easily feasible to be seen. But in the end, it's still fantasy, it's still entertainment.



Well, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Retailers won't display works featuring minority characters because they feel they won't sell, so creators and publishers won't create them. And the reason that creators and publishers won't create them is because retailers feel they won't sell. All there needs to be is one example to disprove this theory wrong. Like how the idea of an action series with a female lead couldn't appeal to a large audience- then Buffy proved that wrong. I'd also say that there would be people who would have argued that an American audience wouldn't accept a series that didn't have an American as the star, yet the biggest star at Marvel is Wolverine- a Canadian. The cycle will keep feeding itself, until something comes along to break people's pre-conceived notions regarding the subject matter.

They don't feel, they have data that shows. These are businesses we are talking about here. They don't react to demographics on opinions of feelings, they react to demographics by hard facts and sales data, and both Marvel and DC and retailers see within their data sheets that non-white characters don't sell. Now this fact you can't argue against, because you do not work at Marvel and DC sales department nor at a main spot in retailers. You can only view from your eyes what you believe. But because of this, they have the data and information to prove their point that non-white leads don't sell. Hence why the would not make such a remark if they didn't have the sales data to prove this. Now if you want to see this sales data, why don't you go to Marvel and ask them? They might be able to send it to you if they feel it's important enough.

[Kasper Cole]

Well, again I'll use the Reginald Hudlind example and his initial arc on the Black Panther, where most of the bad guys were white and all the good guys were black. In and of itself, I have no problem with that. But Hudlind goes out of his way to paint the white characters in such a stereotypical light that it is almost laughable. Again, one character even calls the females of Wakanda "jungle bunnies." Plus, the only character on the bad guys side who is against the idea is black. It's kind of hard to take the discussion seriously when the its divided in such stark terms. I liked what was did in the Blue Marvel series, where someone like Dum Dum Dugan is confronted about what went on in the past- he is a good man, but has a hard time explaining his actions regarding the past. It's not clear here if Dum Dum was the "good guy" or the "bad guy," and that I feel is a more interesting debate. However, the series didn't stay on that point for very long.
.

I gotta call you out on this stuff right here because I think you're being misleading. The scene you're referring does in fact show ONE character as acting like a bigot and the rest of the characters in the room basically look at him like he's an idiot, the same character is dragged out of the room later on by two guys when he can't deal with the fact that Cap was beaten by Black Panther. It should also be noted that the black woman in the book is one of the main villains who wants to see a regime change in Wakanda so the US can take advantage. Also Everett K Ross is featured and is shown being the voice of dissent in regards to staging a coup in Wakanda.

[Hrist]

I honestly don't think advertising to adults (ethnic or otherwise) is necessarily going to work though. Maybe I'm wrong... but I don't think you can get adults to read comics if it wasn't something they were interested in as kids.

I think they need to take a page from the cigarette industry and target kids.

Most people I know who are new readers of comics got into it in their twenties, myself included. Comics just aren't written for kids, by and large, any more.

[StoneGold]

Brevoort's comments reflect the small-mindedness of a tiresome New York leftist.

Glen Beck much?
If Marvel was headquartered in Nairobi and mainly sold to the African continent, all their lead characters would be dark-skinned in some way or another. If Marvel was headquartered in Bangkok, all their lead characters would be Asians. If Marvel was headquartered in New Dehli, all their lead characters would be Indian. That's just the way of the world. But it does not automatically mean that the ethnic majorities of those continents or nations hate everybody else.
And Marvel is headquartered in the US, a multi-ethnic nation that usually likes to celebrate its diversity.

That's the slander that leftists always throw at people
To quote JJ, "I resent that! Slander is spoken. In print, it's libel." And it's neither, because you can neither libel nor slander a group, and given its position on the internet, if you disagree, you have the same opportunity to write back.


-- that emotionally identifying with a character because he or she is very similar to you is racist. But you don't see Bollywood casting too many red-headed white farm boys from Iowa in their musicals, do you?

Nor would I expect them to.

Nor do I resent them for not doing so.

Just off the top of my head, I know Tom Jane got his start in Bollywood. Granted, he's blond, not a red head, but I figure close enough.

[Kasper Cole]

Brevoort's comments reflect the small-mindedness of a tiresome New York leftist.

If Marvel was headquartered in Nairobi and mainly sold to the African continent, all their lead characters would be dark-skinned in some way or another. If Marvel was headquartered in Bangkok, all their lead characters would be Asians. If Marvel was headquartered in New Dehli, all their lead characters would be Indian. That's just the way of the world. But it does not automatically mean that the ethnic majorities of those continents or nations hate everybody else.

That's the slander that leftists always throw at people -- that emotionally identifying with a character because he or she is very similar to you is racist. But you don't see Bollywood casting too many red-headed white farm boys from Iowa in their musicals, do you?

Nor would I expect them to.

Nor do I resent them for not doing so.

and where was anything like that said in the article? At most it was said that the majority readership is indifferent to minority and women characters.

[Daouda]

Posting acting funny.Double. See Below.

[Daouda]

Well I never read Hudlin's work. But if what you say is the truth than I can definitely see why Hudlin has such a negative reputation.

Nice Thread, Babybro.

I've just popped in to say if you haven't read any of Hudlin's BP, DON'T LISTEN TO THE HATERS! It was great! It got me reading comics again.

Even in the intial arc, whose continuity bending got fanboys in such a tizzy, had excellent characterization. All of the white characters where not written the same!

In fact, the differences between Batroc, the Rhino, Klaw and the Black Knight were brilliantly shown. Though perhaps too subtley expressed for fans who were still seeing red after a young Captain America got his ass beat!:evilsmile:

If there was ever a character I hated from Preist's run it was Ross, but even he (a white character) was shown competent and clear eyed. In fact, not at all ther sickening douche he was in Priest's run.

I've said before and I'll say again, Hudlin gets an inordinate amount of hate from people who NEVER even read the comic. The last thread I was in was started by another white fan who read about things in Black Panther and was offended; with out ever reading the actual issues. And this goes right to what Breevort is noting.


Babybro, read Hudlin's trades for yourself.

"Who is the Black Panther" to see what the fanboys are screaming about and what made me say, "Holy cow, a comic I want to read!"

"Bad Mutha" was another arc that got some geeks seeing too many black faces, but was a joy to behold! Again, Reggie's characterization of the various heroes was dead-on (loved Luke Cage!). Also, the art and coloring was fantastic!

The Marvel Zombie arc in "Four the Hard Way" was pure entertainment. Ben and Johnny are added to the cast while Reed and Sue try to mend their marriage. Again Reggie nails their personalities. The Zombies are alternately funny and terrifying as some revel in the canabilistic horror they have become while some wrestle with their broken humanity. Zombie Luke Cage and Zombie Tony Stark were especially funny. Poor Peter.

Last but not least, issue 19 might be my favorite. Doom is in it, and it ends with a kiss and a genuine laugh. I loved to just see Ororo and T'Challa laugh together.:smile:


I read your post and like where you are comiing from babybro.
Keep on brother.


Excelsior!

Daoud

[Vic Vega]

You think Adults by XXL or the Source or Slam magazine. really? wow

I'm fairly certain that XXL and The Souce at least, are going for the 18-35 year old market(I know very little about Slam). But since Hip-Hop is youth music most of thier readers are probably gonna trend to the younger side.

I'd also say that that 18-35 year old market is what Marvel and D.C are both targeting. Marvel only recenly started paying attention to younger readers with it's Marvel Adventures line. D.C.'s kids line has been around for a little while longer but in both cases it is only a fraction of thier total output. The kid market isn't thier top priority.

THe fanboys that they already know how to sell stuff to are.

[bfrank]

Yeah but this nation is one third minority. And women constitute 70% of literature IE Book purchasers.

So I am saying there is something wrong with the comic industry business model. No wonder the market is shrinking.

I think Vega is on point, tho. Marvel needs to place ads in XXL and the Source. How do you broaden your buyers.. By Broadening your advertisement and product. Can you imagine Coke or Pepsi cutting back there commercials to just MTV. Then deciding they will market their drinks to one demographic.

That doesnt make any business sense.


Will Smith's movie Hancock made more than Superman returns. The 3 Blade movies made more than Daredevil, Elektra, and Ghost Rider combined. Why is there such a drop off in the comics industry. I mean lets be frank, Ive seen some rude reactions from some comic fans when they find out a creator on a book they have read is a minority.
because movies are cool, comics are for geeks and nerds.....duh...why is that even a question......

[Mister Mets]

It's more about the comic's quality (or severe lack thereof) that makes or breaks, IMHO.

If they made a Luke Cage comic, written by Bendis (who has done a lot for the character), I'd certainly buy it.
Because I know they story would be good and the charcater would not be a drastic change from his former appearances.

But in waaay to many cases, a comic featuring a minority lead is a soapbox for social issues and reads like an after-school special.
Or worse, you have a comic where (for example) the black lead only fights black bad guys and those are second-stringers or new characters made just to fight the lead- the comics insustry seems afraid to have whites fighting blacks or vice-versa because they fear it will be misread as racism.

So they either avoid books with a minority or handle them with kid gloves.

Give us a good story with compelling characters and good art and it will sell.
Period.

What we dont need is another Black Goliath or Apache Chief or Shamrock or Ace or Sabra beating us over the head with their racial identity.
Seriously, Ace was Michael Jackson, for god's sake- and he kicked Spider-Man's butt.

Impossibly lame.A few titles with minority leads have been awesomely reviewed, and still sold like shit. It's not just the quality. Although a bad series is still damaging, making readers wary of the next project.

And wasn't Ace more Prince than Michael Jackson? Though, that was a character who appeared twice.

[XPac]

I'm fairly certain that XXL and The Souce at least, are going for the 18-35 year old market(I know very little about Slam). But since Hip-Hop is youth music most of thier readers are probably gonna trend to the younger side.

I'd also say that that 18-35 year old market is what Marvel and D.C are both targeting. Marvel only recenly started paying attention to younger readers with it's Marvel Adventures line. D.C.'s kids line has been around for a little while longer but in both cases it is only a fraction of thier total output. The kid market isn't thier top priority.

THe fanboys that they already know how to sell stuff to are.

The late teens/early 20's is the market they already have.

I think the best tactic to making the market GROW is to go for a younger audience, and thats why its' becoming more of a priority. If there's any place where they might see growth, it's going to be there.

You can tell across the board that both companies have made strong strides at catching that market in the last few years. The 90's may have been about snagging that hip Mortal Kombat vibe, but late in this decade I think the thrust is to cater to more family oriented entertainment.

[kalorama]

A good character is a good character regardless of race. And sooner or later a writer will see that, even if the masses don't.

But if the masses don't see (and buy) it, then the books will fail commercially and it's that commercial failure which pus a damper on the companies' willingness to try different things. Business that want to survive in a competitive marketplace aren't going to make repeated attempts to sell something that their consumer base has repeatedly refused to buy.

[kalorama]

But then the creators are MAKING race into an issue, by deliberately withholding that information from the audience. And in a day and age when you have characters with full face masks (like Spider-Man or Deadpool) or a completely different colored skin altogether (like Hulk or Savage Dragon) or are even inhuman (Ghost Rider) and they can sell comics, I highly doubt that putting a black man or an asian man on the cover of a comic will turn people off.

Apples and oranges. The skin color/appearance of the Hulk, Savage Dragon, Thing, et al have no real world parallels and, as such, have no real world psychological/emotional/historical triggers for the readers. The same can't be said of Black/Latino/Asian/Middle Eastern characters.

[Kasper Cole]

For those who say it's about the quality of the books written I have to point at Christopher Priest's critically acclaimed Volume of Black Panther which struggled from the first issue.

Also DC's Manhunter was considered on of the better comics on the market and that never sold either.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

For those who say it's about the quality of the books written I have to point at Christopher Priest's critically acclaimed Volume of Black Panther which struggled from the first issue.

Also DC's Manhunter was considered on of the better comics on the market and that never sold either.

That's not exclusive to minorities though.

Moon Knight was cancelled and recently relaunched and he's white.

[RDMacQ]

No one is trying to guilt someone into buying one because it stars a minority character, what is being shown is the biased nature that the comic book audience seem to have to non-white heroes. It is up to the readers themselves to figure out how they decipher this piece of information, and will they be making any changes because of it. Most likely not, as it's been well shown that the comic book audience that marvel and dc are currently set in their ways. The creators are merely explaining the truth, it's up to the readers to determine what to do with it.

But then again, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I can't buy a product that Marvel or DC won't produce, and I have no problem with buying a comic with a minority character (again, I love Agents of Atlas which features an asian protagonist.) Like you said, the companies are set in their ways and their way of thinking. I can only buy the products they put out. It's up to them to decide what comics to publish and why.

Well I never read Hudlin's work. But if what you say is the truth than I can definitely see why Hudlin has such a negative reputation. There are ways to integrate race into the picture and with if he did perform such a one sided biased view, he deserved everything he receive. In regards to Blue Marvel, Dum Dum was primarily a NPC per say, but did provide an interesting picture of his mindset back than. However, it was important to note the time frame in which they were in. Of course, since the majority of the scenes were flashbacks, they had to be honest with what happened. What could be painted as good guy bad guy routine in the present would not work with what happened in the past. What was wrong was clearly wrong, and to shy away from that would've been not only a disservice to the character, but a disservice to the entire civil rights movement.
The excellent thing about blue marvel is the discussion about race evolved. It didn't stick to one topic, but reach across multiple topics and such primarily showed just one person's mindset.

I kind of felt that Dum Dum was the one character and the one part of the comic that dealt with the situation honestly, and asked the question what was going on in people's minds back then- were people merely dealing with the cards they were dealt or did they actually feel that way.

Again, you can't use Hancock as an example. Your talking about two COMPLETELY different demographics. With movies, you are open to the entire population of the US just about, with comics, well as you know, is a very niche small field almost entirely read by non-white male readers. Demographics show the difference between the two. Now if we stick to comics, let's examine the front. You have Icon, who was created by milestone is an alien like superman, but different as well. But it clearly did not reach the levels of Superman, or anywhere close. Than you have Blue Marvel, who is to this date, barely known by anybody. Often, when the top 10 strongest are given, Blue Marvel is rarely considered on anybody's list, even though he is by far one of the strongest people in Marvel. So by keeping it "within comics" you can truly see the point that Tom was talking about.

I'm sorry, but no. There is a carryover audience. The same people that read Superman are the same type of movie goer that will go to see Hancock. And, yes, by keeping it "within comic" you can tailor the argument to make it look like it is the audience that is the problem, and not the creators. But if you look at the wider picture, in entertainment, society and even politics, you can see that a large audience has no major problems supporting a black actor, sports star or politician. Saying that comics is a "unique example" I feel, is a cop out. Heck, one of the most popular characters of the 90's was Spawn- a black character. And comics fans had no problem supporting that character, and continuing to support that character over the years.

But nobody is being preached to. It's those reader that feels like they are being preached to when frankly, their story being told is no different than spider-man stopping green goblin from robbing the bank. This isn't a biography, or a non-fiction, this is comics. And such there is no education evolve with the events that happen with Josaiah. Why? Because he is not real. What this does show, however, is the comic book population fear of dealing with anything racial related.
If people actually read the book, they would realize that Captain America played a huge and GOOD point in the story. But of course, this is sidestep because people blow it off, with one main aspect being that it has a black face, with the race related topics being another. Marvel has always pride itself for being the more humanistic and realistic of the big two, and such having topics dealing with race is easily feasible to be seen. But in the end, it's still fantasy, it's still entertainment.

It is admirable that Marvel chose to publish this story and make this part of their continuity. It's just when I go into the comic book store, I'm looking for some good, superhero entertainment. I'm not really looking to buy an "issue" book. I know that there are those out there look for something different, but I am primarily looking for a diversion. It's the same reason I would go to see a movie like I Am Legend over something like Crash in the theaters- I want to be entertained. I'll maybe check out Crash if I hear some good things about it, but if I'm going to be dropping some serious coin I want to make sure I can get some bang for my buck.

They don't feel, they have data that shows. These are businesses we are talking about here. They don't react to demographics on opinions of feelings, they react to demographics by hard facts and sales data, and both Marvel and DC and retailers see within their data sheets that non-white characters don't sell. Now this fact you can't argue against, because you do not work at Marvel and DC sales department nor at a main spot in retailers. You can only view from your eyes what you believe. But because of this, they have the data and information to prove their point that non-white leads don't sell. Hence why the would not make such a remark if they didn't have the sales data to prove this. Now if you want to see this sales data, why don't you go to Marvel and ask them? They might be able to send it to you if they feel it's important enough.

All I know is that I have no problem buying a comic featuring a minority character, or going to see a film or watch a TV show or play a video game starring a minority character. They can have all the studies they want, but I know what is true for me. Again, I feel that it is something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that their sales and data only go back to prove their point, but the reason people won't create or produce these works is because of all the data produced. All it takes is one work that breaks that mold. However, like you stated, Marvel and DC are stuck in their ways and introducing minority characters or changing characters to be more visible minorities would mostly be seen as just trying to fill quotas or be politically correct.

It is not an easy problem to solve, but I don't think that the blame can be levied upon the audience. The creators have to take some responsibility to for not trying to remedy the situation the best way they can.

[RDMacQ]

Apples and oranges. The skin color/appearance of the Hulk, Savage Dragon, Thing, et al have no real world parallels and, as such, have no real world psychological/emotional/historical triggers for the readers. The same can't be said of Black/Latino/Asian/Middle Eastern characters.

Then how do you explain Spawn, a long lasting comic starring (for the majority of the run) a black man?

[RDMacQ]

That's not exclusive to minorities though.

Moon Knight was cancelled and recently relaunched and he's white.

And the Order, which featured a predominately white cast, written by a hot, up and coming writer (Matt Fraction) and drawn by a talented artist (Barry Kitson) and that only lasted 10 issues.

The comic market nowadays seems to be primarily supportive of long lasting franchises- ones that have been around for decades and offer some form of stability. The problem is that most of the franchises were created at a time with different social attitudes, and feature mostly white characters. It's not the fault of the franchises or the audiences, it is just the way the market works at this time.

[Kasper Cole]

That's not exclusive to minorities though.

Moon Knight was cancelled and recently relaunched and he's white.

I know, which is why it's silly for anyone to even bring up the quality of the books mattering in this discussion because it clearly doesn't matter.

[Greg Anderson]

Then how do you explain Spawn, a long lasting comic starring (for the majority of the run) a black man?

You know, I'm entirely confused on what you and kalorama are arguing about... :confused:

[Kasper Cole]

Then how do you explain Spawn, a long lasting comic starring (for the majority of the run) a black man?

You talking about Mr. Crispy?

[RDMacQ]

You know, I'm entirely confused on what you and kalorama are arguing about... :confused:

It's saying that putting a black man or an asian man on the cover of a comic will turn people off, but putting a red or green man on a comic won't turn people away. However, there's the character of Spawn- to which the issue of his race is not a major factor in the series- who has been a very successful independent comic.

[Kasper Cole]

It's saying that putting a black man or an asian man on the cover of a comic will turn people off, but putting a red or green man on a comic won't turn people away. However, there's the character of Spawn- to which the issue of his race is not a major factor in the series- who has been a very successful independent comic.

You mean the same Spawn who's either always wearing a mask or burnt to the point that you can't tell what race he is?

[kalorama]

Then how do you explain Spawn, a long lasting comic starring (for the majority of the run) a black man?

Simple. Spawn's actual FACE was never on the cover of the book. He wore a mask that covered his face and what was actually left of his face made his race impossible to determine.

However, there's the character of Spawn- to which the issue of his race is not a major factor in the series . . .

And then there's that.

[RDMacQ]

You mean the same Spawn who's either always wearing a mask or burnt to the point that you can't tell what race he is?

Yes. And we know from flashbacks that Spawn used to be black. But again, it's never really been an issue for the comics. Spawn's race isn't focused on because it's not a vital part to what is going on- it is WHAT he is, not WHO he is.

[RDMacQ]

Simple. Spawn's actual FACE was never on the cover of the book. He wore a mask that covered his face and what was actually left of his face made his race impossible to determine. And while I never read the book, the impression I've always gotten from people who had was that his race had little, if anything, to do with the stories themselves.

Exactly my point. Race wasn't an issue for the comic. There was other stuff going on.

I'd also point out that characters like Spider-Man and Deadpool rarely show their face on the covers on their comic as well, and their race is never an issue in the comics. Deadpool also has a scarred visage, and we can't really determine what race HE is, exactly, but that hasn't diminished his popularity.

[kalorama]

I'm sorry, but no. There is a carryover audience.

Yeah, FROM comics TO movies. Not so much the other way around. So the amount of audience support for Will Smith as a superhero has no direct relevance to the amount of reader support for Black superheroes in comics.

[kalorama]

Exactly my point. Race wasn't an issue for the comic. There was other stuff going on.

No. Your point was that Spawn was proof that putting a Black face on the cover wouldn't effect sales. It wasn't because, by the very nature of the character's appearance, there was never actually a Black face on the cover of the book.

And pointing out that the book never dealt with the issue of race does nothing to support your point and everything to support the opposing one, because it makes Spawn the poster boy for a Black character who is portrayed Black in appearance only, as opposed to Black characters whose life experiences as Black people are reflected in the characters themselves.

In other words, it was easy for readers to ignore the fact that Spawn was "Black" because the book did little or nothing to remind them. That won't work with Cage, Storm, Black Lightning, Brother Voodoo, et al.

[RDMacQ]

Yeah, FROM comics TO movies. Not so much the other way around. So the amount of audience support for Will Smith as a superhero has no direct relevance to the amount of reader support for Black superheroes in comics.

So a comic reader will willingly go to a superhero movie starring a black actor, but they wouldn't read about a comic featuring a black protagonist? That seems to be strange behavior to me- they've already displayed a willingness to support a work with a black protagonist.

[kalorama]

Yes. And we know from flashbacks that Spawn used to be black. But again, it's never really been an issue for the comics. Spawn's race isn't focused on because it's not a vital part to what is going on- it is WHAT he is, not WHO he is.

A distinction not quite so easily made as you would seem to like to believe.

[kalorama]

So a comic reader will willingly go to a superhero movie starring a black actor, but they wouldn't read about a comic featuring a black protagonist? That seems to be strange behavior to me- they've already displayed a willingness to support a work with a black protagonist.

That's quite clearly not what I was saying.

[Kasper Cole]

Yes. And we know from flashbacks that Spawn used to be black. But again, it's never really been an issue for the comics. Spawn's race isn't focused on because it's not a vital part to what is going on- it is WHAT he is, not WHO he is.

I thought you and the other guy were going on about how some people won't buy a comic with a black character on the cover and you brought up Spawn despite the fact that he's always covered up or burnt to a crisp.

[RDMacQ]

No. Your point was that Spawn was proof that putting a Black face on the cover wouldn't effect sales. It wasn't because, by the very nature of the character's appearance, there was never actually a Black face on the cover of the book.

And pointing out that the book never dealt with the issue of race does nothing to support your point and everything to support the opposing one, because it makes Spawn the poster boy for a "Black" character who is Black in name only, as opposed to Black characters who's life experiences as Black people are reflected in the characters themselves.

In other words, it was easy for readers to ignore the fact that Spawn was "Black" because the book did little or nothing to remind them. That won't work with Cage, Storm, Black Lightning, Brother Voodoo, et al.

I wouldn't say ignore. It just wasn't a factor. Storm is one of the most popular X-Men character- because she has a strong personality and interesting powers along WITH being Black. Characters like Black Lightning , I feel, have the unfortunate implication of being created solely as "black superheroes." They were created to help fill a quota, or be politically correct. And this goes back to not wanting to buy a comic out of guilt- I want to buy a comic because I want to be entertained and I like the character, not because I feel it is my duty to support comics featuring minority characters.

It goes back to the feeling I have that if creators don't WANT race to be an issue, then they shouldn't MAKE it an issue. I think that we are in agreement in that it was easy to overlook a character like Spawn's race because it wasn't an issue- he wore a mask and had a scarred visage. What race he was was an afterthought. Which is the way I feel it should be.

[RDMacQ]

I thought you and the other guy were going on about how some people won't buy a comic with a black character on the cover and you brought up Spawn despite the fact that he's always covered up or burnt to a crisp.

But he is still a black character. It's just not displayed at every single instance, like say, Black Goliath.

[kalorama]

I wouldn't say ignore.

You already did. You said, repeatedly, that it wasn't a factor in the book. If it wasn't a factor, then there was no reason for readers to think about it. If that's not ignoring something, I don't know what is. Except, of course, for those readers who didn't even know he was Black to begin with.

[XPac]

But if the masses don't see (and buy) it, then the books will fail commercially and it's that commercial failure which pus a damper on the companies' willingness to try different things. Business that want to survive in a competitive marketplace aren't going to make repeated attempts to sell something that their consumer base has repeatedly refused to buy.

Well, the reality is most books get canceled regardless of the race or gender of the character. That's just the reality of it.

They'll keep trying as long as there are writers with a story to tell. But unless you've been around for decades, odds are pretty good you won't be around decades from now.

[RDMacQ]

You already did. You said, repeatedly, that it wasn't a factor in the book. If it wan't a factor, then there was no reason for readers to think about it. If that's not ignoring something, I don't know what is.

I think there is a difference between ignoring something and just not caring. Ignoring something means that you are willingly trying to avoid something. Just not caring means that it doesn't matter one way or the other.

[kalorama]

What race he was was an afterthought. Which is the way I feel it should be.

And if we lived a Utopian society, it would be. But we don't and it's not.

[XPac]

I know, which is why it's silly for anyone to even bring up the quality of the books mattering in this discussion because it clearly doesn't matter.

I think it matters.

Most book fail, regardless of quality.

But if you write a quality book, then there's at least a descent shot that another writer will try again or use that character.

Characters like Ant-Man, Hood, Ares, and Sentry were given second chances despite their mini's failing because other writers enjoyed the book enough to want to use the characters.

[kalorama]

I think there is a difference between ignoring something and just not caring. Ignoring something means that you are willingly trying to avoid something. Just not caring means that it doesn't matter one way or the other.

I fail to see how that distinction helps your argument. First of all, it can't be applied to most existing minority characters because they aren't burned so badly that their race is impossible to determine. And once it becomes clear that they are Black (or Asian, or Middle Eastern, or whatever) then it becomes something that for most people is impossible to either ignore or not care about. That is simply antithetical to the basic reality of the world we live in.

[7thangel]

Brevoort's comments reflect the small-mindedness of a tiresome New York leftist.

If Marvel was headquartered in Nairobi and mainly sold to the African continent, all their lead characters would be dark-skinned in some way or another. If Marvel was headquartered in Bangkok, all their lead characters would be Asians. If Marvel was headquartered in New Dehli, all their lead characters would be Indian. That's just the way of the world. But it does not automatically mean that the ethnic majorities of those continents or nations hate everybody else.

That's the slander that leftists always throw at people -- that emotionally identifying with a character because he or she is very similar to you is racist. But you don't see Bollywood casting too many red-headed white farm boys from Iowa in their musicals, do you?

Nor would I expect them to.

Nor do I resent them for not doing so.

srsly, you need to come down to yabs and the community forum, we need more freepers to debate

now if nairobi, bangkok and new delhi had the same history as the u.s., damn, as all of the north, central, and south america with various 'races' and colours being a huge and intrinsic part of what they are today, please inform us.

obviously you don't know about the problems of colourism in indian media (and society) and the fight and critiques of bollywood about their images, representations, and messages in reference to colour.

i don't recall tom calling you a racist or your imaginary straw man bleeding heart lefties. no ones called you racist for possibly implying that america is a white country by bringing up kenya, thailand or india that are more homogeneous 'racially' if not ethnically.
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on another note, it must be said again, no ones trying to guilt anybody to do a damn thing.

one more thing, please stop bringing in will smith unless you're willing to bring up the struggle by actors, writers and directors of colour that got him in that position he's in now and how most are still struggling despite their acknowledged talents just to get a sidekick role.
nevermind how many can unofficially be on the screen before it's dubbed an ethnic movie which translates into less promo and less theaters regardless of the last box office profits.
will smith didn't just get there, and combined with those struggles and hardships, specific hollywood folk made sure to keep giving him projects as a co-star and not let him fade away even if there was a flop and basically gave him a chance that they've given white actors that we know have had flop after flop before getting a hit. if hollywood did what marvel did to reyes, BM, and others he would be Leon or Cheadle or Cho or Union and a shitload of others.

airbender and the reactions of those that backed the casting and the reason for the casting racechange reinforces and justifies what they industry does.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
we haven't even addressed the diversity of the creators, specifically writers and editors.

plus being a friend of scientology hasn't hurt him.

[RDMacQ]

I fail to see how that distinction helps your argument. First of all, it can't be applied to most existing minority characters because they aren't burned so badly that their race is impossible to determine. And once it becomes clear that they are Black (or Asian, or Middle Eastern, or whatever) then it becomes something that for most people is impossible to either ignore or not care about. That is simply antithetical to the basic reality of the world we live in.

I really didn't care that Jimmy Woo was an asian in Agents of Atlas. I just thought he was a cool character, with a cool supporting cast of characters. He wasn't "JIMMY WOO, ASIAN MAN." He was Jimmy Woo, Agent of Atlas. The same way I don't care that Cage is black. I think he is a tough as nails character with interesting powers and a strong sense of morality.

[kalorama]

Well, the reality is most books get canceled regardless of the race or gender of the character. That's just the reality of it.

They'll keep trying as long as there are writers with a story to tell. But unless you've been around for decades, odds are pretty good you won't be around decades from now.
True. But the chances of a new book getting canceled increase significantly if the lead character in said book projects characteristics and qualities that the audience has already proven to be hesitant to support. In other words, a brand new book starring a character who reminds people of Spider-Man still has a poor chance of survival, but because he's patterned after a character with a long proven history of longevity, he'll have a better chance than a book starring a brand new character who reminds people of Black Lightning, a character who's never been able to sustain a book long-term

[kalorama]

I really didn't care that Jimmy Woo was an asian in Agents of Atlas. I just thought he was a cool character, with a cool supporting cast of characters. He wasn't "JIMMY WOO, ASIAN MAN." He was Jimmy Woo, Agent of Atlas. The same way I don't care that Cage is black. I think he is a tough as nails character with interesting powers and a strong sense of morality.

And that's nice for you. But the abundant evidence of history pretty clear suggests that most people don't see it that way, even if it's only subconsciously (which, for most, I believe it is).

[RDMacQ]

I think it matters.

Most book fail, regardless of quality.

But if you write a quality book, then there's at least a descent shot that another writer will try again or use that character.

Characters like Ant-Man, Hood, Ares, and Sentry were given second chances despite their mini's failing because other writers enjoyed the book enough to want to use the characters.

That's a good point. I didn't read The Irredeemable Ant-Man because I really wasn't interested in his character, despite being a big Robert Kirkman fan. The fact that he was a white guy didn't factor into the equation.

There is a lot of focus on all the books featuring minorities that don't do well, but why don't we ever stop to look at all the books featuring WHITE protagonists that fail as well?

[Kasper Cole]

I think it matters.

Most book fail, regardless of quality.

But if you write a quality book, then there's at least a descent shot that another writer will try again or use that character.

Characters like Ant-Man, Hood, Ares, and Sentry were given second chances despite their mini's failing because other writers enjoyed the book enough to want to use the characters.

I get what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that the idea that white readers would pick up a book with Black lead characters IF it was a quality title has been proven false.

[RDMacQ]

And that's nice for you. But the abundant evidence of history pretty clear suggests that most people don't see it that way, even if it's only subconsciously (which, for most, I believe it is).

But there's no way to prove that. It's like counting on the Bradley Effect to take effect- there's no way to prove that will happen or that is governing people's decisions. My father thought that the Bradley Effect would keep Obama out of office- obviously, he was wrong. And so were many others who believed that people would say they would vote for a black politician, but then switch to the white guy when it comes time to vote.

There just comes a point where we have to consider that it is not the audience themselves that is the problem, but certain people's attitudes TOWARDS the audience that is holding things back.

[RDMacQ]

I get what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that the idea that white readers would pick up a book with Black lead characters IF it was a quality title has been proven false.

But there have also been instances when a white audience wouldn't pick up a quality book with WHITE characters. Just look at Captain Britain and the MI-6. That was loved by a lot of fans and critics, but that didn't last long. And that stared a blond haired, blue eyed superman type character with several white supporting characters.

[Greg Anderson]

I thought you and the other guy were going on about how some people won't buy a comic with a black character on the cover and you brought up Spawn despite the fact that he's always covered up or burnt to a crisp.

Well, after 119, he wasn't always "burnt." He was able to look like a black man for a while until Hine started writing again. He then lost his symbiote for a bit and he was back to looking like a black man until he was killed. Though in the series his race didn't play much of anything, there was that one issue where he faced the KKK and turned the leader black. Through the issue, Al had a bit more emotion to it given that he was defending a black family against them.

There was also a later arc in Spawn in a flashback issue where you meet his family and I believe race was mentioned once due to the fact that they were in the middle of a murder, etc. I need to read that arc again, good stuff when Hine was writing.

And we do have one cover with Al's true face on the cover. :wink:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/308/254812-4937-119946-1-spawn_super.jpg

Also take into consideration that a MAJORITY of Spawn covers have almost nothing to do with the issues themselves. For years it was like that until Hine started writing.

[Greg Anderson]

But there have also been instances when a white audience wouldn't pick up a quality book with WHITE characters. Just look at Captain Britain and the MI-6. That was loved by a lot of fans and critics, but that didn't last long. And that stared a blond haired, blue eyed superman type character with several white supporting characters.

At my shop, the book started selling out when Blade joined the crew.

[XPac]

I get what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that the idea that white readers would pick up a book with Black lead characters IF it was a quality title has been proven false.

Priests Black Panther had a pretty descent run. What was it... something like 60 plus issues?

There are plenty of runs with white characters that didn't last a third of that.

So I don't think the notion that quality helps is proven entirely false.

[mikekerr3]

I get what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that the idea that white readers would pick up a book with Black lead characters IF it was a quality title has been proven false.

Where has it been proven false?

[kalorama]

But there's no way to prove that.

The high failure rate among books with lead minority characters is proof .

There is a lot of focus on all the books featuring minorities that don't do well, but why don't we ever stop to look at all the books featuring WHITE protagonists that fail as well?

Because it's not the same thing. As has been pointed out, the majority of new books have low odds of longevity, regardless of the race/ethnicity of the lead character. But the simple fact of the matter is that among the low percentage of books that do beat the odds, the protagonist in the vast majority of those books are primarily white. So simply saying that most books with white leads fail doesn't dispute the point about lack of audience support for minority characters. The real proof is in the demographics of the few books that actually succeed.

[Kasper Cole]

But there have also been instances when a white audience wouldn't pick up a quality book with WHITE characters. Just look at Captain Britain and the MI-6. That was loved by a lot of fans and critics, but that didn't last long. And that stared a blond haired, blue eyed superman type character with several white supporting characters.

*sighs* I never said anything to the contrary. Someone else basically said that the quality of books with black leads play a role in them failing, obviously that's not the case considering more than a few of them have been well written and critically acclaimed, so the quality of the books shouldn't even be brought up in this discussion.

[kalorama]

Priests Black Panther had a pretty descent run. What was it... something like 60 plus issues?

And a part of the reason why it lasted that long was because the book got a good bit of positive media attention that it was in Marvel's interests to milk for as long as possible (as well as to avoid the negative backlash that would come from canceling it). I would bet that the actual sales of Panther were no better (and in some cases, maybe worse) than many of the books that didn't make it.

[babybro]

But then again, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I can't buy a product that Marvel or DC won't produce, and I have no problem with buying a comic with a minority character (again, I love Agents of Atlas which features an asian protagonist.) Like you said, the companies are set in their ways and their way of thinking. I can only buy the products they put out. It's up to them to decide what comics to publish and why.

Ah yes, you personally can only dictate what you purchase. But you, just like myself, are only a small ripple in a very huge lake. As someone mention first and foremost, they are a business. They go by what their sales data show and how
much money they bring in. And as a business, it would be borderline madness to continue trying to push out products featuring minorities when it clearly shows the demographics do not support lead minorities, AND YET, they still continue to push out books like black panther, blue marvel, and josaiah. If anything, that tells you how much marvel is willing the try to pursue diversity.



I kind of felt that Dum Dum was the one character and the one part of the comic that dealt with the situation honestly, and asked the question what was going on in people's minds back then- were people merely dealing with the cards they were dealt or did they actually feel that way.

I definitely feel the entire comic dealt with racism honestly, as many can attest to being in the military and receiving the same amount of abuse as Adam did. Blue Marvel did an excellent job of showing both sides of the spectrum. Those that were just dealing with the cards they dealt with, like Dum Dum and his wife who later on came to love him, and others who literally felt like bigots and racists in the comic. Overall, Blue Marvel was excellent in this ordeal.



I'm sorry, but no. There is a carryover audience. The same people that read Superman are the same type of movie goer that will go to see Hancock. And, yes, by keeping it "within comic" you can tailor the argument to make it look like it is the audience that is the problem, and not the creators. But if you look at the wider picture, in entertainment, society and even politics, you can see that a large audience has no major problems supporting a black actor, sports star or politician. Saying that comics is a "unique example" I feel, is a cop out. Heck, one of the most popular characters of the 90's was Spawn- a black character. And comics fans had no problem supporting that character, and continuing to support that character over the years.

In your own words, I'm sorry but no. If what you speak was truth than Static Shock would not only be sending the teen titans to the top 10 slot, mini's and ongoings of his would go through the same route. His TP also would be at the Top 10 if there was a carry over audience. At the moment, Static Shock is currently one of the highest rating shows on Disney, has received emmy awards,
and usually tear up the charts wherever the show is being placed on. And yet in comics, not only was his TP not in the top 20, it wasn't even in the top 50. Plus, the teen titans still range in the lower end of the top 100. Same with Teen Titans, which had an excellent run on Cartoon Network, and yet cannot spawn no where near the same success in comics. Why? Because the comic book audience and television audience doesn't mix. For christ sake, the top selling book in comics only reach 128,000 sales this month, yet 90210 from the CW spans 2.4 million views. That is 20 times the amount of people watching one episode of that show over purchasing blackest night. If there was a carry over audience like you say, the comic book industry, as a whole, not just minorities, would be at a much better state than it is now.



It is admirable that Marvel chose to publish this story and make this part of their continuity. It's just when I go into the comic book store, I'm looking for some good, superhero entertainment. I'm not really looking to buy an "issue" book. I know that there are those out there look for something different, but I am primarily looking for a diversion. It's the same reason I would go to see a movie like I Am Legend over something like Crash in the theaters- I want to be entertained. I'll maybe check out Crash if I hear some good things about it, but if I'm going to be dropping some serious coin I want to make sure I can get some bang for my buck.

So since you don't pick up issue books, I assuming you don't pick up any xmen title. Seeing as the prime aspect of Xmen is to relate to the similar struggles of the civil rights movement. Yet Xmen continues to top the chart in regards to sells, even though it is an issue book. Now perhaps it's just you personally that don't like issue book, which is fine. But that means it's no longer about quality, as your previous statement seem to suggest. As mention before, Josaiah receive raving reviews from across the board, and yet was not a success. On the other hand, Static Shock was not an issue book, but was attributed very similar to the life of peter parker as the everyman's person, and sales wise in comics, it was not a success.



All I know is that I have no problem buying a comic featuring a minority character, or going to see a film or watch a TV show or play a video game starring a minority character. They can have all the studies they want, but I know what is true for me. Again, I feel that it is something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that their sales and data only go back to prove their point, but the reason people won't create or produce these works is because of all the data produced. All it takes is one work that breaks that mold. However, like you stated, Marvel and DC are stuck in their ways and introducing minority characters or changing characters to be more visible minorities would mostly be seen as just trying to fill quotas or be politically correct.

It is not an easy problem to solve, but I don't think that the blame can be levied upon the audience. The creators have to take some responsibility to for not trying to remedy the situation the best way they can.

Oh I do agree that the creators are "partially responsible" for the problem. They continue to keep minorities from the spotlight and making things involving them being the "big thing" per say They also could use some creation in minorities in general, for example there is literally almost no more black mutants left because of scarlet witch. So nobody is saying that the creators are scott free in this situation, but I definitely agree that the large portion of the blame should go to the audience, because it's the audience that determines what is successful, not the creators. They can only put out the product, it's up to the audience to support it with their funds, and as Tom mention, the audience are a lot less likely to support it with non-white leads.

[Kasper Cole]

Priests Black Panther had a pretty descent run. What was it... something like 60 plus issues?

There are plenty of runs with white characters that didn't last a third of that.

So I don't think the notion that quality helps is proven entirely false.

Despite the length of the run the book was always on the brink of cancellation. Certain people in editorial fought like crazy to keep the book on the shelves at one point even going as far as to consider raising the price on the book.Priest himself commented that he always thought the book was going to be cancelled because of the low sales (to the point where he didn't even write a script for one issue because he was so sure it was being cancelled).

[XPac]

Despite the length of the run the book was always on the brink of cancellation. Certain people in editorial fought like crazy to keep the book on the shelves at one point even going as far as to consider raising the price on the book.Priest himself commented that he always thought the book was going to be cancelled because of the low sales (to the point where he didn't even write a script for one issue because he was so sure it was being cancelled).

And I think people fought like crazy to keep the book on the shelves because it was a DAM GOOD BOOK. Which goes back to my initial point about quality.

Yes, the book had to fight to keep on the shelves and was constantly on the brink of cancellation... but plenty of new books are in the same boat, regardless of the gender or race of the characters involved.

All I'm saying is that in regards to quality, Priests book showed that a black character in a quality book can have a descent run.

[RolandJP]

The question that lingers for me; Will non-minorities support a comic book showcasing a minority or one written by a minority. Larry Hama's Wolverine dealt with race as well as other issues. And this argument that race issues put off readers is a mystery to me. Maybe when a minority does it--it is amplified.

Also, why were fans quick to label Christopher Priest's the Crew as a black book?
Yet the MIghty Avengers is never labeled a white book.

[StoneGold]

Well, after 119, he wasn't always "burnt." He was able to look like a black man for a while until Hine started writing again. He then lost his symbiote for a bit and he was back to looking like a black man until he was killed. Though in the series his race didn't play much of anything, there was that one issue where he faced the KKK and turned the leader black. Through the issue, Al had a bit more emotion to it given that he was defending a black family against them.

There was also a later arc in Spawn in a flashback issue where you meet his family and I believe race was mentioned once due to the fact that they were in the middle of a murder, etc. I need to read that arc again, good stuff when Hine was writing.

And we do have one cover with Al's true face on the cover. :wink:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/308/254812-4937-119946-1-spawn_super.jpg

Also take into consideration that a MAJORITY of Spawn covers have almost nothing to do with the issues themselves. For years it was like that until Hine started writing.

Course, I also remember that originally, Todd was going to make it a plot point that Al could look human, but only as a white guy. I think he only pulled that shtick off once, though.

[StoneGold]

Also, why were fans quick to label Christopher Priest's the Crew as a black book?
Yet the MIghty Avengers is never labeled a white book.

Because white is default, duh.

[Greg Anderson]

Course, I also remember that originally, Todd was going to make it a plot point that Al could look human, but only as a white guy. I think he only pulled that shtick off once, though.

Only in issue 3 did he turn white. In the recent issues, the guy he turned into is the new Spawn. Much later in the series before Hine;s run, Al was able to turn back into Al, but it didn't last too long. But in Hine's run also, Al's girlfriend, Nyx, was helping him with his powers to turn human again, but that run ended before it could go further.

[kalorama]

And I think people fought like crazy to keep the book on the shelves because it was a DAM GOOD BOOK. Which goes back to my initial point about quality.
Yes, the book had to fight to keep on the shelves and was constantly on the brink of cancellation... but plenty of new books are in the same boat, regardless of the gender or race of the characters involved.

All I'm saying is that in regards to quality, Priests book showed that a black character in a quality book can have a descent run.

The people who fought to keep it alive weren't consumers, they were Marvel employees, which goes back to the initial point about a lack of audience support for books with minority leads. At the end of the day, sales are what determines a book's success, and Black Panther didn't sell well enough to survive, despite Marvel's attempts to keep it alive. If it hadn't been for behind the scenes intervention, the book wouldn't have lasted as long as it did, based on sales.

[7thangel]

a self fulfilling fallacy becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

i wouldn't give the big 2 a pat on their back because they had a few titles headed by non-whites or non-straight (?), because of their impression that it wouldn't sell to the larger audience from the get-go (whether they're right or not). they haven't done it consistently and at times haven't made sure the quality is up to par (usually art-wise) for them to truly make that assessment.
tyler perry continues to prove hollywood wrong and does something that they choose not to do consistently, same can be said of new york and tv. the big 2 hasn't put in half the time and effort they think they have and i don't expect them to, they still don't know how to stop shedding customers, find a new business model for the changing tech or find ways to attract those that manga has, specifically women, girls and other minorities, as well as what they see as their natural base.

[kalorama]

Also, why were fans quick to label Christopher Priest's the Crew as a black book?
Yet the MIghty Avengers is never labeled a white book.

For the same reason that white bigotry directed at blacks is "racism" while black bigotry directed at whites is "reverse racism."

[Kasper Cole]

And I think people fought like crazy to keep the book on the shelves because it was a DAM GOOD BOOK. Which goes back to my initial point about quality.

Yes, the book had to fight to keep on the shelves and was constantly on the brink of cancellation... but plenty of new books are in the same boat, regardless of the gender or race of the characters involved.

All I'm saying is that in regards to quality, Priests book showed that a black character in a quality book can have a descent run.

It had a decent run because editorial backed it so much, not because the sale warranted it.

Again, the original argument that someone else basically made was that a book with a black lead character will sell well if it has quality writing and art. History has shown that to not be the case...Black Panther had a LONG run but it was ALWAYS a low seller....I never said it was as low seller because it was a a book with a black lead character, I'm saying that books with black lead character are usually never big sellers regardless of the quality of the book.

[XPac]

The question that lingers for me; Will non-minorities support a comic book showcasing a minority or one written by a minority. Larry Hama's Wolverine dealt with race as well as other issues. And this argument that race issues put off readers is a mystery to me. Maybe when a minority does it--it is amplified.

Also, why were fans quick to label Christopher Priest's the Crew as a black book?
Yet the MIghty Avengers is never labeled a white book.

I actually have heard a FEW people label Mighty Avengers a white book.

But I think the issue there is purely numbers in regards to why few even notice most of the MA are white. The vast majority of superheroes are white, so it doesn't really seem out of ordinary to see a team mostly or even completely white. If you were to place the sames of every single hero in a hat and randomly drew 8 names, it wouldn't be that unlikely to draw 8 white characters.

When you have a team that's composes largely of minorities, it does stand out (and that's not necessarily a bad thing). I didn't actually read the Krew, so I'm not in a position to really argue why anyone would call it a black book other than perhaps the number of minority characters was an indication that the writer was trying to attract a large minority audience. But presumably, like any other book it's trying to get as wide an audience as possible.

I will say this though... if Bendis had decided to compose the entire New Avengers rooster of jewish characters, a part of me would suspect that there might be an agenda at work there. Whether it's fair of me to assume that or not, in all honestly that's what I would think.

[Kasper Cole]

And I have to say the whole idea of a character being black and his race being ignored is a cop out. That's just as much BS as having Gay and Lesbian characters in a book but them NEVER being in relationships.

[Kasper Cole]

Also, why were fans quick to label Christopher Priest's the Crew as a black book?Yet the MIghty Avengers is never labeled a white book.

Not only that but around the same time Mighty Avengers launched the New Avengers were being called the "ghetto" Avengers while Luke Cage was leading them.

[RolandJP]

I actually have heard a FEW people label Mighty Avengers a white book.

But I think the issue there is purely numbers in regards to why few even notice most of the MA are white. The vast majority of superheroes are white, so it doesn't really seem out of ordinary to see a team mostly or even completely white. If you were to place the sames of every single hero in a hat and randomly drew 8 names, it wouldn't be that unlikely to draw 8 white characters.

When you have a team that's composes largely of minorities, it does stand out (and that's not necessarily a bad thing). I didn't actually read the Krew, so I'm not in a position to really argue why anyone would call it a black book other than perhaps the number of minority characters was an indication that the writer was trying to attract a large minority audience. But presumably, like any other book it's trying to get as wide an audience as possible.

I will say this though... if Bendis had decided to compose the entire New Avengers rooster of jewish characters, a part of me would suspect that there might be an agenda at work there. Whether it's fair of me to assume that or not, in all honestly that's what I would think.

I would buy a Jewish Avengers book.

Put the Thing on that team.:biggrin:

[XPac]

I.I never said it was as low seller because it was a a book with a black lead character, I'm saying that books with black lead character are usually never big sellers regardless of the quality of the book.

Sure.

But the problem is that you can also say most new books in general are usually never big sellers regardless of the quality of the book.

[XPac]

I would buy a Jewish Avengers book.

Put the Thing on that team.:biggrin:

Oh, there are quite a few jewish characters I'd like to see as Avengers (Thing and Kitty), so I'd buy it too.

But I'd still be calling it the Jewish Avengers, regardless of how much I liked it. Fair or not, I don't think I'd be able to help myself.

[illikaspain]

And I have to say the whole idea of a character being black and his race being ignored is a cop out. That's just as much BS as having Gay and Lesbian characters in a book but them NEVER being in relationships.

Shatterstar and Rictor
http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/illikspain/rictor-shatterstar-kiss-186.jpg

Hulking and Wiccan
http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/illikspain/hulkingwiccan-456.jpg

[Kasper Cole]

Shatterstar and Rictor
http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/illikspain/rictor-shatterstar-kiss-186.jpg

Hulking and Wiccan
http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/illikspain/hulkingwiccan-456.jpg


and surprise surprise people bitched and moaned about both of those relationships. I don't think Wiccan and Hulkling have ever kissed on panel. I'm not sure why there was such a fuss about Rictor and Shatterstar.

[Greg Anderson]

and surprise surprise people bitched and moaned about both of those relationships. I don't think Wiccan and Hulkling have ever kissed on panel. I'm not sure why there was such a fuss about Rictor and Shatterstar.

Because gay characters are contrived. You can read all about it in my column linked in my signature below. :biggrin:

[illikaspain]

When they brought back Shatterstar I was hella happy...I don't know care if his gay or not.... as long as he can slice your face it's all good to me!

[Greg Anderson]

When they brought back Shatterstar I was hella happy...I don't know care if his gay or not.... as long as he can slice your face it's all good to me!

Caught the last issue? He sliced a hand off. :biggrin:

[illikaspain]

Didn't get the book! But will cop tomorrow! Any body who comes from Mojoworld is a beast! That's why I like Shatterstar!!

[Frank]

Not only that but around the same time Mighty Avengers launched the New Avengers were being called the "ghetto" Avengers while Luke Cage was leading them.

Who labelled them as such? Instead of throwing a few "they" there and there, I would like to know who was throwing that moniker around since i've heard read it. I think your self-esteem problems make you invent stuff up.

[XPac]

and surprise surprise people bitched and moaned about both of those relationships. I don't think Wiccan and Hulkling have ever kissed on panel. I'm not sure why there was such a fuss about Rictor and Shatterstar.

There may have been some complaints over the YA... but by and large I think the books is viewed pretty positively by comic book fans. I don't see a good deal of hate on the characters or the writers for that.

As far as Shatterstar and Rictor... I think a part of the reason there was a fuss is because the creator of Shatterstar went on record as saying that the character isn't gay, and that he'd change this if he ever had the opportunity. Or something like that.

[Frank]

and surprise surprise people bitched and moaned about both of those relationships. I don't think Wiccan and Hulkling have ever kissed on panel. I'm not sure why there was such a fuss about Rictor and Shatterstar.

Because Shatterstar and Rictor were not created as gays. I'm sure Rob Liefeld, Shatterstar's creator would disagree with what happened.

As for Wiccan and Hulking, nobody screamed. Again, you're making stuff up.

[XPac]

Who labelled them as such? Instead of throwing a few "they" there and there, I would like to know who was throwing that moniker around since i've heard read it. I think your self-esteem problems make you invent stuff up.

I've actually heard the term before too. Don't recall from who.

But I don't think it was just about Cage leading the team. I think a part of it had to do with them being a street level team living out of some apartment. This was sort of the poor man's Avengers.

[Frank]

Well yea they're street level. Because Bendis has picked street-level characters. But ghetto? lol

[Greg Anderson]

I still don't see why the harsh response to Shatterstar and Rictor being gay... or bi, whatever. People I know who at many times least expect end up coming out. Sure it's a surprise, but doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[illikaspain]

I still don't see why the harsh response to Shatterstar and Rictor being gay... or bi, whatever. People I know who at many times least expect end up coming out. Sure it's a surprise, but doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Living in San Francisco people that I grew up with you would never thought that they was gay but it happen when they feel comfortable with themselves as adults...aint X-Men supposes to teach tolerance to other even if they have purple skin or gay! That's what I got X-universe!!! People need to get over it! Shatterstar rocks

[AJBopp]

Part of the problem of non-white male leads is simply the creative approach taken. Too often Marvel gets in the mindset that if you have an African American lead, then you have to do a lot of stories in which ethnicity of the lead or supporting characters is part of the plot. Not that it's a bad thing, but over-emphasis is pretty much always a bad thing. Same thing for female leads.

These kinds of sub-plots work better for supporting cast (look at 1968-70 era Spider-man with Randy Robertson, for example) but throwing those kinds of issues to the forefront each and every issue, as Marvel is wont to do, gets old quickly.

This mindset isn't limited to a characters ethnicity or sex, either. We've seen for years how simply making a hero married seems to focus undue attention to subplots involving marriage. Undoing the marriage demonstrates more clearly than anything else how the creative approach was wrong, rather than that the marriage was wrong. The creative teams just start focusing on the wrong things.

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

Also, why were fans quick to label Christopher Priest's the Crew as a black book?
Yet the MIghty Avengers is never labeled a white book.

Cho is Asian. But this definitely applies to the previous MA team.

[RDMacQ]

Ah yes, you personally can only dictate what you purchase. But you, just like myself, are only a small ripple in a very huge lake. As someone mention first and foremost, they are a business. They go by what their sales data show and how much money they bring in. And as a business, it would be borderline madness to continue trying to push out products featuring minorities when it clearly shows the demographics do not support lead minorities, AND YET, they still continue to push out books like black panther, blue marvel, and josaiah. If anything, that tells you how much marvel is willing the try to pursue diversity.

But what about all the comics featuring white characters that fail, like The Order, The Irresponsible Ant-Man, Captain Britain and the MI-6, and others? Where is the racial bias in the failure of those titles? Why is it when a book featuring a minority fails it is because of the racial bias of the audience, but when a book featuring a white cast fails it is for other reasons?

In your own words, I'm sorry but no. If what you speak was truth than Static Shock would not only be sending the teen titans to the top 10 slot, mini's and ongoings of his would go through the same route. His TP also would be at the Top 10 if there was a carry over audience. At the moment, Static Shock is currently one of the highest rating shows on Disney, has received emmy awards,and usually tear up the charts wherever the show is being placed on. And yet in comics, not only was his TP not in the top 20, it wasn't even in the top 50. Plus, the teen titans still range in the lower end of the top 100. Same with Teen Titans, which had an excellent run on Cartoon Network, and yet cannot spawn no where near the same success in comics. Why? Because the comic book audience and television audience doesn't mix. For christ sake, the top selling book in comics only reach 128,000 sales this month, yet 90210 from the CW spans 2.4 million views. That is 20 times the amount of people watching one episode of that show over purchasing blackest night. If there was a carry over audience like you say, the comic book industry, as a whole, not just minorities, would be at a much better state than it is now.

Hey, I watched Static Shock. And I liked it. But it skewed to a different audience than comics usually do- since Static Shock was for a younger crowd and comics these days skew a bit older. But I have a hard time believing that part of the millions of people that went to see Hancock AREN'T also comic book fans. There is little carryover from movies to comics, but I believe that the same audience that buys a Superman comic is the same audience that would go to see Hancock.

So since you don't pick up issue books, I assuming you don't pick up any xmen title. Seeing as the prime aspect of Xmen is to relate to the similar struggles of the civil rights movement. Yet Xmen continues to top the chart in regards to sells, even though it is an issue book. Now perhaps it's just you personally that don't like issue book, which is fine. But that means it's no longer about quality, as your previous statement seem to suggest. As mention before, Josaiah receive raving reviews from across the board, and yet was not a success. On the other hand, Static Shock was not an issue book, but was attributed very similar to the life of peter parker as the everyman's person, and sales wise in comics, it was not a success.

Actually, no, I don't pick up X-Men. Never really got into the title. But I DID go to see every X-Men movie in the theaters. I don't feel it is an "issue" title, just that it had a bit of a convoluted continuity when I was growing up that turned me off the title. It had nothing to do with the notion of the X-Men being a stand in for different minorities.

Oh I do agree that the creators are "partially responsible" for the problem. They continue to keep minorities from the spotlight and making things involving them being the "big thing" per say They also could use some creation in minorities in general, for example there is literally almost no more black mutants left because of scarlet witch. So nobody is saying that the creators are scott free in this situation, but I definitely agree that the large portion of the blame should go to the audience, because it's the audience that determines what is successful, not the creators. They can only put out the product, it's up to the audience to support it with their funds, and as Tom mention, the audience are a lot less likely to support it with non-white leads.

Whereas I feel the blame lays largely on the creators. Tom can say all he wants that the audience is not likely to support a comic starring a minority with their funds, but how can we prove that if he won't PRODUCE a comic featuring a minority lead? I am happy to support Agents of Atlas which stars an asian lead because I found it to be an entertaining and well written title. But I can't support with my funds something that isn't produced.

[RDMacQ]

There may have been some complaints over the YA... but by and large I think the books is viewed pretty positively by comic book fans. I don't see a good deal of hate on the characters or the writers for that.

As far as Shatterstar and Rictor... I think a part of the reason there was a fuss is because the creator of Shatterstar went on record as saying that the character isn't gay, and that he'd change this if he ever had the opportunity. Or something like that.

Yeah, I liked the tactic that was taken with Young Avengers regarding Hulkling and Wiccan. It wasn't this big deal that they were gay. It just WAS. There wasn't a big moment when Wiccan or Hulkling came in and said "I... am... GAY!!!!" It was just part of who they were as people.

[Michael P]

Just off the top of my head, I know Tom Jane got his start in Bollywood. Granted, he's blond, not a red head, but I figure close enough.

Especially when you consider that most of the white farmboys in Iowa are blond, not red-headed.

It's saying that putting a black man or an asian man on the cover of a comic will turn people off, but putting a red or green man on a comic won't turn people away. However, there's the character of Spawn- to which the issue of his race is not a major factor in the series- who has been a very successful independent comic.

The key word there being "independent." The margin for success is much lower there than it is in the corporate comics world, and the readership isn't as hidebound. And while Spawn sold like gangbusters when Todd was drawing it, its sales today would put it dangerously close to the chopping block at either Marvel or DC. As for the cartoon and the movie, you'd be hard-pressed to find a non-comics fan today who remembers much about either.

For all these reasons and more, Spawn's what statisticians call an outlier. And you don't base sound theory on outliers.

[XPac]

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9661284']Cho is Asian. But this definitely applies to the previous MA team.

If Cho counts as an Avenger, I think he's only the second Asian Avenger, isn't he? Mantis I think was asian.

[RDMacQ]

The key word there being "independent." The margin for success is much lower there than it is in the corporate comics world, and the readership isn't as hidebound. And while Spawn sold like gangbusters when Todd was drawing it, its sales today would put it dangerously close to the chopping block at either Marvel or DC. As for the cartoon and the movie, you'd be hard-pressed to find a non-comics fan today who remembers much about either.

For all these reasons and more, Spawn's what statisticians call an outlier. And you don't base sound theory on outliers.

But it still shows that a series starring a minority character can be very successful, and won't turn readers off in and of itself. And again, while Spawn may not be doing great business now, there are plenty of titles starring white characters that have failed over the years (arguably more so than ones starring minorities, I'm going to say) so where is the racial bias that?

[Michael P]

But it still shows that a series starring a minority character can be very successful, and won't turn readers off in and of itself.

Sure, if it's written and drawn by the hottest artist going and there's a speculator boom. None of which have anything to do with the character's race.

And again, while Spawn may not be doing great business now, there are plenty of titles starring white characters that have failed over the years (arguably more so than ones starring minorities, I'm going to say) so where is the racial bias that?

There isn't any. No one has ever said that race is the only reason a comic fails. Just that it is one.

[RDMacQ]

Sure, if it's written and drawn by the hottest artist going and there's a speculator boom. None of which have anything to do with the character's race.

Exactly. Race doesn't become an obstacle if it isn't treated as one, or is made into an issue. It is simply what the character is, not who the character is.

There isn't any. No one has ever said that race is the only reason a comic fails. Just that it is one.

But other comics fail for other reasons, and don't have the race card to play to blame for the titles failure.

[Free-Man]

It's interesting that they mentioned that retailers are more hesitant to buy books with non white male leads. That's a perspective I never thought about.

There's not a whole lot marvel or Disney can do about that if that's the case, apart from trying to do more and hoping people buy it so retailers will be more willing to buy more.

Milestone Comics dealt with that problem in the 90's. A lot of comic shops straight up refused to carry many of the books they put out.

[kalorama]

Part of the problem of non-white male leads is simply the creative approach taken. Too often Marvel gets in the mindset that if you have an African American lead, then you have to do a lot of stories in which ethnicity of the lead or supporting characters is part of the plot. Not that it's a bad thing, but over-emphasis is pretty much always a bad thing. Same thing for female leads.

Exactly. Race doesn't become an obstacle if it isn't treated as one, or is made into an issue. It is simply what the character is, not who the character is.

In other words, it's okay to have a lead character be Black or female or gay or Hispanic, as long as the creators don't call too much attention to it? I'm really not sure how that works. Luke Cage can be Black as long as he doesn't . . . talk about being Black? Interact with other Black people? Listen to "Black music"? How much of his cultural heritage is he allowed to express in a story before it becomes too intrusive or off-putting?

Of course, the supreme irony of that kind of thinking is that it's one of the things that most people who want more diversity in comics are most actively opposed to.

[RDMacQ]

In other words, it's okay to have a lead character be Black or female or gay or Hispanic, as long as the creators don't call too much attention to it? I'm really not sure how that works. Luke Cage can be Black as long as he doesn't . . . talk about being Black? Interact with other Black people? Listen to "Black music"? How much of his cultural heritage is he allowed to express in a story before it becomes too intrusive or off-putting?

Of course, the supreme irony of that kind of thinking is that it's one of the things that most people who want more diversity in comics are most actively opposed to.

Well, Spider-Man is a white character, but how often do we see him talking about being white? Or making a big deal about interacting with other white characters. Or listen to "white music." How often does Spider-man call attention to his race? Or the FF, or Thor, or Captain America? Why is it that a white character doesn't have to focus on race, but a comic featuring a minority has to make it into an issue or a plot point. Luke Cage can be black, have black friends, and listen to black music, but we don't have to hear about it every other page. Being black is WHAT Cage is, not WHO he is, and that is a distinction that a lot of creators have tripped themselves up over. I'm open to diversity, and showing different cultures in comics, but not when they take the reader out of the story or make the issue of race into a central, governing point.

[XPac]

In other words, it's okay to have a lead character be Black or female or gay or Hispanic, as long as the creators don't call too much attention to it? I'm really not sure how that works. Luke Cage can be Black as long as he doesn't . . . talk about being Black? Interact with other Black people? Listen to "Black music"? How much of his cultural heritage is he allowed to express in a story before it becomes too intrusive or off-putting?

Of course, the supreme irony of that kind of thinking is that it's one of the things that most people who want more diversity in comics are most actively opposed to.

That's actually the doubled edged sword of the matter.

When a minority character is conveying some ethnicity, a part of the problem is that it's often a middle class middle age white guy trying to convey it. Most writers are white. And when it's not done "right" it can be criticized as being stereotypical or even offensive.

A lot of the time, it probably is easier to just NOT convey cultural heritage rather than risking conveying it wrong.

[Freakzeek]

Well, Spider-Man is a white character, but how often do we see him talking about being white? Or making a big deal about interacting with other white characters. Or listen to "white music." How often does Spider-man call attention to his race? Or the FF, or Thor, or Captain America? Why is it that a white character doesn't have to focus on race, but a comic featuring a minority has to make it into an issue or a plot point. Luke Cage can be black, have black friends, and listen to black music, but we don't have to hear about it every other page. Being black is WHAT Cage is, not WHO he is, and that is a distinction that a lot of creators have tripped themselves up over. I'm open to diversity, and showing different cultures in comics, but not when they take the reader out of the story or make the issue of race into a central, governing point.
Maybe Cage's identity as a superhero and A black man, are inseparable , maybe he can't put it aside or just " happen" to be man who is a black superhero? I know as a Black man, while i'm a individual, my skin makes me into a collective entity,a race, and a way of thinking that may be quite different from the not so silent majority and I carry my culture and heritage everyday were every I go, I liked to imagine it's the same situation for cage. He maybe Black and He can transcend his blackness, like will smith, Micheal Jackson, or Muhammad ali, but at the end of the day he is Black and he Identifies as black, hence the whole civil war/slave speech. Luke Cage refuses to register, comparing the act to both slavery and Jim Crow laws, and later joins Cap's side after a squadron of S.H.I.E.L.D. "cape killers" attack Cage immediately after the act becomes law (at 12:01 am), even though he is sitting at home, watching T.V., and has not used his powers since the act went into place.


"When I was born, I was black. When I grow up, I'm black. When I'm ill, I'm black. When I die, I'm black. But you - When you're born, you're pink. When you grow up, you're white. When you're ill, you're green. When you go out in the sun, you go red. When you're cold, you go blue. When you die, you're purple. And you have the nerve to call me Colored?-Malcom X

[RDMacQ]

Maybe Cage's identity as a superhero and A black man, are inseparable , maybe he can't put it aside or just " happen" to be man who is a black superhero? I know as a Black man, while i'm a individual, my skin makes me into a collective entity,a race, and a way of thinking that may be quite different from the not so silent majority and I carry my culture and heritage everyday were every I go, I liked to imagine it's the same situation for cage. He maybe Black and He can transcend his blackness, like will smith, Micheal Jackson, or Muhammad ali, but at the end of the day he is Black and he Identifies as black, hence the whole civil war/slave speech. Luke Cage refuses to register, comparing the act to both slavery and Jim Crow laws, and later joins Cap's side after a squadron of S.H.I.E.L.D. "cape killers" attack Cage immediately after the act becomes law (at 12:01 am), even though he is sitting at home, watching T.V., and has not used his powers since the act went into place.

And that is a point when race is used to very great effect. If you look at it this way, the story came to Cage. The notion of the Civil War being similar to what the slaves went through it something that would be a good story point for Cage to comment on. But not every story has to be that with Cage, as it becomes ham fisted to try and force the issue of race into every story featuring Cage. And Cage isn't the only character to carry his race with him- again, each and every Marvel character carries their race with them every day. Be it asian (Jimmy Woo), african american (Cage and Storm) or jewish (The Thing). But their race and/ or religion doesn't have to be at the forefront of every single issue. It's there, and can be commented on if the story allows it, but it shouldn't be something that the story goes out of its way to point out.

[7thangel]

And that is a point when race is used to very great effect. If you look at it this way, the story came to Cage. The notion of the Civil War being similar to what the slaves went through it something that would be a good story point for Cage to comment on. But not every story has to be that with Cage, as it becomes ham fisted to try and force the issue of race into every story featuring Cage. And Cage isn't the only character to carry his race with him- again, each and every Marvel character carries their race with them every day. Be it asian (Jimmy Woo), african american (Cage and Storm) or jewish (The Thing). But their race and/ or religion doesn't have to be at the forefront of every single issue. It's there, and can be commented on if the story allows it, but it shouldn't be something that the story goes out of its way to point out.

who is advocated that?

[kalorama]

Well, Spider-Man is a white character, but how often do we see him talking about being white? Or making a big deal about interacting with other white characters. Or listen to "white music." How often does Spider-man call attention to his race? Or the FF, or Thor, or Captain America? Why is it that a white character doesn't have to focus on race, but a comic featuring a minority has to make it into an issue or a plot point. Luke Cage can be black, have black friends, and listen to black music, but we don't have to hear about it every other page. Being black is WHAT Cage is, not WHO he is, and that is a distinction that a lot of creators have tripped themselves up over. I'm open to diversity, and showing different cultures in comics, but not when they take the reader out of the story or make the issue of race into a central, governing point.

With every word you type, you pretty much make my case for me. I'd bet money that's a major part of the line of "reasoning" used (consciously or not) by many of the same readers whose unwillingness to buy books with minority leads so frequently results in their premature termination. They're "okay" with reading books about characters with Black faces, but they don't want to read about actual Black/Brown/whatever people doing the things that actual Black/Brown/whatever people do.

That's actually the doubled edged sword of the matter.

When a minority character is conveying some ethnicity, a part of the problem is that it's often a middle class middle age white guy trying to convey it. Most writers are white. And when it's not done "right" it can be criticized as being stereotypical or even offensive.

Then don't do it wrong. Most people seem to agree that Tony Isabella got it right with Black Lightning. I haven't heard much complaint about Bendis getting it "wrong" with Cage in Avengers. In fact, the most vocal complaining I've heard has been from people who want the jive-talkin' "Sweet Christmas" 70s version back. Now that's wrong.

The idea that only women can write women or only minorities can write minorities is nonsense. To the extent it's been a problem in the past it wasn't because of the writers' race or gender, it was because of a deficit in their writing ability.

A lot of the time, it probably is easier to just NOT convey cultural heritage rather than risking conveying it wrong.

Big time cop out.

[kalorama]

And that is a point when race is used to very great effect. If you look at it this way, the story came to Cage. The notion of the Civil War being similar to what the slaves went through it something that would be a good story point for Cage to comment on. But not every story has to be that with Cage, as it becomes ham fisted to try and force the issue of race into every story featuring Cage. And Cage isn't the only character to carry his race with him- again, each and every Marvel character carries their race with them every day. Be it asian (Jimmy Woo), african american (Cage and Storm) or jewish (The Thing). But their race and/ or religion doesn't have to be at the forefront of every single issue. It's there, and can be commented on if the story allows it, but it shouldn't be something that the story goes out of its way to point out.

Cage's race was not at the "forefront" of every single issue of his book, in any of its previous forms, beyond the fact that he was a Black character who lived in a Black neighborhood, surrounded by Black people. If that's too much for some people to take, I renew my contention that the problem isn't the stories.

It often did come into play in more explicit ways, but it's not like each issue started off with a 1st person narrative caption box that said, "My name is Luke Cage, I'm the Blackest man alive."

[babybro]

But what about all the comics featuring white characters that fail, like The Order, The Irresponsible Ant-Man, Captain Britain and the MI-6, and others? Where is the racial bias in the failure of those titles? Why is it when a book featuring a minority fails it is because of the racial bias of the audience, but when a book featuring a white cast fails it is for other reasons?

It's quite simple, because there are books that feature caucasian characters and are a success. The same CANNOT be said for minority characters. When you have black panther, blue marvel, Josaih, the red white and black, or other minority lead characters in the front. Or something that has not happened yet, have a minority lead character in the top 3 comics, than we can talk. With caucasian characters, it's okay for captain britian to fail because you have Thor, it's okay for Ant-Man to fail because you have Spider Man. You don't have that with minority books, as almost all minority books do not sell well.



Hey, I watched Static Shock. And I liked it. But it skewed to a different audience than comics usually do- since Static Shock was for a younger crowd and comics these days skew a bit older. But I have a hard time believing that part of the millions of people that went to see Hancock AREN'T also comic book fans. There is little carryover from movies to comics, but I believe that the same audience that buys a Superman comic is the same audience that would go to see Hancock.

Definitely disagree, Static Shock was aimed at the same audience as Spider Man, the creator Dwayne Mcduffie said so himself. And as you can see, Spider Man definitely doesn't have a problem with sales, that's for sure. As for some people going to see Hancock? I would not be surprised as well, but Hancock isn't from the marvel or dc universe. He is his own entity. Now imagine if Hancock was brought to the DC universe, see how well he would sells. (Hint, look at Icon for your answer.)



Actually, no, I don't pick up X-Men. Never really got into the title. But I DID go to see every X-Men movie in the theaters. I don't feel it is an "issue" title, just that it had a bit of a convoluted continuity when I was growing up that turned me off the title. It had nothing to do with the notion of the X-Men being a stand in for different minorities.

Oh there is no problem with you not enjoying the Xmen, but to not call it an issue title would be a disservice to the xmen themselves. They are constantly talking about mutant rights, I mean, the entire sentinenal thing was because humans wanted the extermination of mutants. Now doesn't that sounds familiar?



Whereas I feel the blame lays largely on the creators. Tom can say all he wants that the audience is not likely to support a comic starring a minority with their funds, but how can we prove that if he won't PRODUCE a comic featuring a minority lead? I am happy to support Agents of Atlas which stars an asian lead because I found it to be an entertaining and well written title. But I can't support with my funds something that isn't produced.

They do, Blue Marvel mini just came out, and the sales were horrible. Marvel does try, do they try enough? I do not know, but to say that they don't try is factually incorrect. It's like a person hitting his head against the wall, after so many times, they learn their lesson and not do it anymore. Marvel is still hitting their head against the wall, hoping the wall would break (ala audience would pick up minority books.) but it never seems to happen. I am very glad that you support some titles. I definitely appreciate it, but you are definitely placing the blame in regards to your reasoning at the wrong direction.

[XPac]

Then don't do it wrong. I haven't heard much complaint about Bendis getting it "wrong" with Cage in Avengers. In fact, the most vocal complaining I've heard has been from people who want the jive-talkin' "Sweet Christmas" 70s version back. Now that's wrong.

The idea that only women can write women or only minorities can write minorities is nonsense. To the extent it's been a problem in the past it wasn't because of the writers' race or gender, it was because of a deficit in their writing ability.


Big time cop out.

But the problem is you don't know if it's wrong until people start complaining about it after the fact.

As far as avoiding the notion of cultural heritage being a cop out... it's a risk/reward kind of thing.

The race card is a potentially sensitive area that CAN overshadow the actual story. In the case of McDuffie's JLA run, I honestly think the thing people will remember about it more than anything else are the ridiculous racial drama that sprang out of it.

[7thangel]

Cage's race was not at the "forefront" of every single issue of his book, in any of its previous forms, beyond the fact that he was a Black character who lived in a Black neighborhood, surrounded by Black people. If that's too much for some people to take, I renew my contention that the problem isn't the stories.

It often did come into play in more explicit ways, but it's not like each issue started off with a 1st person narrative caption box that said, "My name is Luke Cage, I'm the Blackest man alive."
and for the win.

clint: cage, fing fang foom is destroying new jersey"

cage: "well as the blackest man alive i say we hop on the jet and whup some ass!!!! and later we can head to the apollo and buy some bean pies outside"

[kalorama]

But the problem is you don't know if it's wrong until people start complaining about it after the fact.

That's true of everything. You don't know if anything is going to work until you try it. If you try it and it doesn't work, the proper response it to try and fix it, not to decide to quit and never try it again, because getting it right is too hard or too much work. That's a recipe for institutionalized mediocrity. And the fact is that Marvel and DC have both given it multiple tries. They've both put out books with minority lead characters, some of which were well done and critically well-received. They were also canceled because no one bought them. At some point, business survival logic has to kick in. Every business has to protect the bottom line. That's not a moral failing on the companies' fault.

As far as avoiding the notion of cultural heritage being a cop out... it's a risk/reward kind of thing.

The race card is a potentially sensitive area that CAN overshadow the actual story. In the case of McDuffie's JLA run, I honestly think the thing people will remember about it more than anything else are the ridiculous racial drama that sprang out of it.

Except (and this is from the perspective of someone read some issues here and there and scanned the trades in-store, but didn't actually pick up the book regularly) the "racial drama" wasn't the result of anything happening in the stories, it was a result of fan reaction to the mere presence of too many Black characters in the book (which only underscores my point). It's not like McDuffie had the JLA bopping down to Harlem to clean up the streets. They fought pretty much the same collection of crappy villains with the same ridiculous plans for world domination the JLA always fight.

[XPac]

That's true of everything. You don't know if anything is going to work until you try it. If you try it and it doesn't work, the proper response it to try and fix it, not to decide to quit and never try it again, because getting it right is too hard or too much work. That's a recipe for institutionalized mediocrity. And the fact is that Marvel and DC have both given it multiple tries. They've both put out books with minority lead characters, some of which were well done and critically well-received. They were also canceled because no one bought them. At some point, business survival logic has to kick in. Every business has to protect the bottom line. That's not a moral failing on the companies' fault.



Except (and this is from the perspective of someone read some issues here and there and scanned the trades in-store, but didn't actually pick up the book regularly) the "racial drama" wasn't the result of anything happening in the stories, it was a result of fan reaction to the mere presence of too many Black characters in the book (which only underscores my point). It's not like McDuffie had the JLA bopping down to Harlem to clean up the streets. They fought pretty much the same collection of crappy villains with the same ridiculous plans for world domination the JLA always fight.

It may be true of everything, but the difference is the potential consequences of being wrong are different.

South Park and How I Met Your Mom takes liberties with their potrayals of Canadians all the time... and for the most part no one cares. But if they were to handle African american potrayals in the same manner, they'd probably be forced to cancel after one season. There are certain things you can sort of get away with, and certain things you can't.

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't necessarily try to handle racial issues... I'm just saying I can understand why a lot of writers may not bother. Again, it's a reward/risk kind of thing.

[RDMacQ]

It's quite simple, because there are books that feature caucasian characters and are a success. The same CANNOT be said for minority characters. When you have black panther, blue marvel, Josaih, the red white and black, or other minority lead characters in the front. Or something that has not happened yet, have a minority lead character in the top 3 comics, than we can talk. With caucasian characters, it's okay for captain britian to fail because you have Thor, it's okay for Ant-Man to fail because you have Spider Man. You don't have that with minority books, as almost all minority books do not sell well.

Again, I point to Spawn as being a series featuring a minority character that has been very successful and long lasting, and didn't make a big deal about the main character being black. And of all the series you mentioned, race and race relations were a major issue, and sometimes people tend to stray away from "issue" comics. Sometimes a spoonful of sugar can help the medicine go down, hence the success of the X-Men which has such heady issues as an undercurrent, but at it's core is a superhero slugfest. Sometimes, people just want to see @#$% get blown up.

Definitely disagree, Static Shock was aimed at the same audience as Spider Man, the creator Dwayne Mcduffie said so himself. And as you can see, Spider Man definitely doesn't have a problem with sales, that's for sure. As for some people going to see Hancock? I would not be surprised as well, but Hancock isn't from the marvel or dc universe. He is his own entity. Now imagine if Hancock was brought to the DC universe, see how well he would sells. (Hint, look at Icon for your answer.)

Still, these are superhero works, and it stands to reason that people who buy superhero comics would also be interested in seeing a superhero movie. I'm not a big Batman or X-Men or Superman fan, but I still went to see their movies. I'm also not a fan of Blade, but I still went to see that film in the theaters.

Oh there is no problem with you not enjoying the Xmen, but to not call it an issue title would be a disservice to the xmen themselves. They are constantly talking about mutant rights, I mean, the entire sentinenal thing was because humans wanted the extermination of mutants. Now doesn't that sounds familiar?

Again, a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. The X-Men can talk about race and even gender relations without putting minorities at the forefront as they can have a stand in of any ethnic group. A white man can experience the same discrimination that a black man experienced, and a heterosexual person can experience the same sort of discrimination that a homosexual person goes through. The race relations there are hidden, and not at the direct forefront of the series. Usually on the covers, you have Wolverine slashing a bad guy or Cyclops blasting a giant robot. That doesn't exactly scream "issue comic."

They do, Blue Marvel mini just came out, and the sales were horrible. Marvel does try, do they try enough? I do not know, but to say that they don't try is factually incorrect. It's like a person hitting his head against the wall, after so many times, they learn their lesson and not do it anymore. Marvel is still hitting their head against the wall, hoping the wall would break (ala audience would pick up minority books.) but it never seems to happen. I am very glad that you support some titles. I definitely appreciate it, but you are definitely placing the blame in regards to your reasoning at the wrong direction.

Yes, but Blue Marvel wasn't exactly written by a big name writer or drawn by a big name artist. The quality of the material was an unknown factor. It wasn't like a work by Bendis or Johns, or McNiven or Hitch, where the audience knows they are going to get some form of quality. As nice of a guy as he seems (and as intimidating as he may be) Kevin Gievioux isn't a well respected name and isn't really known for his comic work. The same thing with Mat Broome. I checked it out because I was interested in the subject matter, but I'll admit, it wasn't the best comic produced in the last year. However, I liked the character of the Blue Marvel and would like to see more of him in the regular comics- maybe in the Avengers and take it from there.

This goes back to my original statement- how am I supposed to support a title if Marvel or DC won't produce it, or give these titles the same attention and focus they give others? The creators can beat their heads against the wall all they want, but they are in control of the content and what is produced. Placing the blame on the audience for not buying a nonexistent product seems a little foolhardy for me.

[RDMacQ]

Cage's race was not at the "forefront" of every single issue of his book, in any of its previous forms, beyond the fact that he was a Black character who lived in a Black neighborhood, surrounded by Black people. If that's too much for some people to take, I renew my contention that the problem isn't the stories.

It often did come into play in more explicit ways, but it's not like each issue started off with a 1st person narrative caption box that said, "My name is Luke Cage, I'm the Blackest man alive."

No, but his title did have the header "The FIRST Black Superhero." And besides being black and a superhero, what did Cage have that really made him stand out from the other heroes? And I would say that the creators went a little overboard on establishing this, as every threat that Cage faced early on was some over the top racial caricature in one form or another (The Cockroach and El Muerte come to mind.) It's not surprising that the book is mostly remembered for the Power Man and Iron Fist era, where it focused more on the contrast of characters between the more hot blooded Cage and the more cool tempered Iron Fist.

[RDMacQ]

It may be true of everything, but the difference is the potential consequences of being wrong are different.

South Park and How I Met Your Mom takes liberties with their potrayals of Canadians all the time... and for the most part no one cares. But if they were to handle African american potrayals in the same manner, they'd probably be forced to cancel after one season. There are certain things you can sort of get away with, and certain things you can't.

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't necessarily try to handle racial issues... I'm just saying I can understand why a lot of writers may not bother. Again, it's a reward/risk kind of thing.

Actually, South Park did take an over the top look at African Americans. Look at the character of Token Black, or the episode "Here Comes the Neighborhood" which played with racial stereotypes.

[7thangel]

Again, a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. The X-Men can talk about race and even gender relations without putting minorities at the forefront as they can have a stand in of any ethnic group. A white man can experience the same discrimination that a black man experienced, and a heterosexual person can experience the same sort of discrimination that a homosexual person goes through. The race relations there are hidden, and not at the direct forefront of the series. Usually on the covers, you have Wolverine slashing a bad guy or Cyclops blasting a giant robot. That doesn't exactly scream "issue comic."


i''m trying to understand what you're saying here. i think i know but i don't want to put words in your mouth so can you explain this bit once again so i'm clear.

No, but his title did have the header "The FIRST Black Superhero." And besides being black and a superhero, what did Cage have that really made him stand out from the other heroes? And I would say that the creators went a little overboard on establishing this, as every threat that Cage faced early on was some over the top racial caricature in one form or another (The Cockroach and El Muerte come to mind.) It's not surprising that the book is mostly remembered for the Power Man and Iron Fist era, where it focused more on the contrast of characters between the more hot blooded Cage and the more cool tempered Iron Fist.
why are you comparing cage's early blaxploitation appearances that we already know were fucked up?

they were fucked up like most blaxploitation movies were that wallowed in the stereotypes that the makers thought black people were like, and created new ones that are still with us now. same with asians, latin@'s, arabs, and natives. we're talking about now (ignoring the marvel plans to bring that version back in the future)

[kalorama]

It may be true of everything, but the difference is the potential consequences of being wrong are different.

South Park and How I Met Your Mom takes liberties with their potrayals of Canadians all the time... and for the most part no one cares. But if they were to handle African american potrayals in the same manner, they'd probably be forced to cancel after one season. There are certain things you can sort of get away with, and certain things you can't.

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. No one's saying anything about "taking liberties" with anything. We're talking about simply portraying Black people in a way that doesn't attempt to ignore or downplay the fact that they're Black. That's worlds different than doing mean-spirited, profane, scatological satires about the fact that they're Black. The one has nothing to do with the other.

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't necessarily try to handle racial issues... I'm just saying I can understand why a lot of writers may not bother. Again, it's a reward/risk kind of thing.

The only risk is that the book gets canceled. The only reward is that it doesn't. Those are the exact same risks and rewards faced by any writer on any comic book. It's not like the Black Panthers are going to bomb the writer's house because he wrote a lousy comic book.

[global74]

I think that the people are ready for a great title feat minority leads. The story just needs to be compelling, and the publisher will need to show patience until the ideas catch on.

In my opinion, characters like Storm, Bishop, and War Machine have tonnes of potential

[XPac]

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. No one's saying anything about "taking liberties" with anything. We're talking about simply portraying Black people in a way that doesn't attempt to ignore or downplay the fact that they're Black. That's worlds different than doing mean-spirited, profane, scatological satires about the fact that they're Black. The one has nothing to do with the other.



The only risk is that the book gets canceled. The only reward is that it doesn't. Those are the exact same risks and rewards faced by any writer on any comic book. It's not like the Black Panthers are going to bomb the writer's house because he wrote a lousy comic book.

Well, if you don't feel my point makes any sense I won't waste anymore time trying to convey it.

But as far as risk goes, cancellation is worst case scenario. I think the lesser problem is simply racial issues overshadowing the actual story. If that becomes the focus rather than the actual story, then such issues can hinder more than help.

Of course, in theory if the story is good enough that won't happen.

[kalorama]

Well, if you don't feel my point makes any sense I won't waste anymore time trying to convey it.

But as far as risk goes, cancellation is worst case scenario. I think the lesser problem is simply racial issues overshadowing the actual story. If that becomes the focus rather than the actual story, then such issues can hinder more than help.

It only "hinders" people who are predisposed to be turned off by a story that deals with race. And, again, if that's an issue for them, then the problem is with them, not the story.

[kalorama]

No, but his title did have the header "The FIRST Black Superhero." And besides being black and a superhero, what did Cage have that really made him stand out from the other heroes?

Let's see . . . he workded for hire, he didn't have a secret identity, he didn't (at least at first) have a code name, he was an ex-con, living under an assumed name. I'm sure there's more, but I can't recall.

And, of course, the obvious counter to your question is to ask: If he didn't have anything that set him apart from other heroes, if he was just like every other hero in existence, what would be the point of making him Black in the first place? One of the reasons a big deal was made out of it was because he was different and brought something to comics that Spider-Man, Daredevil, etc. didn't.

[XPac]

It only "hinders" people who are predisposed to be turned off by a story that deals with race. And, again, if that's an issue for them, then the problem is with them, not the story.

If it hinders people to the point where they're turned off to the book, then the problem is marvels and the books too. Again, risk and reward.

But it doesn't always turn people off... if it's done WELL it probably won't be a problem. I don't recall too many complaints over Cage playing the race card a bit during Civil War. That worked just fine. Maybe it's a simple matter of writing... maybe the times where racial issues rerailed the story was a simple matter of the stories not being strong enough to keep people on the rails.

[7thangel]

If it hinders people to the point where they're turned off to the book, then the problem is marvels and the books too. Again, risk and reward.

But it doesn't always turn people off... if it's done WELL it probably won't be a problem. I don't recall too many complaints over Cage playing the race card a bit during Civil War. That worked just fine. Maybe it's a simple matter of writing... maybe the times where racial issues rerailed the story was a simple matter of the stories not being strong enough to keep people on the rails.

can we stop calling it the race card? no one says the white privilege card, the male privilege card, the rich card, the poor card, etc, etc. how a shitty term meant to derail and dismiss became the default term after all these years is beyond me.

can we also not just concentrate on black characters.

[RolandJP]

It only "hinders" people who are predisposed to be turned off by a story that deals with race. And, again, if that's an issue for them, then the problem is with them, not the story.

Agreed. And that is the bigger issue. As the nation's demographics change, evident by the diverse forms of entertainment that are presently successful--Wizards of Waverly place, High School Musical, True Blood, Lost, etc. Its is only a matter of time before this changes the comics landscape.

And I agree diversity doesn't begin and end with Black People. I am for more Women, Asians, Latinos, Russian(wink at Winter Guard) Native peeps, overweight, working class, elderly ( like Destroyer) and disabled heroes. And more.

[RDMacQ]

i''m trying to understand what you're saying here. i think i know but i don't want to put words in your mouth so can you explain this bit once again so i'm clear.

What I am trying to say is that while the X-Men may have dealt with issues like racism or proxies thereof, it wasn't a factor of the books that was actively promoted over the more superhero centric action. It wasn't like the Truth series, which was putting race issues at the very forefront of the comic.

why are you comparing cage's early blaxploitation appearances that we already know were fucked up?

they were fucked up like most blaxploitation movies were that wallowed in the stereotypes that the makers thought black people were like, and created new ones that are still with us now. same with asians, latin@'s, arabs, and natives. we're talking about now (ignoring the marvel plans to bring that version back in the future)

Which is why they are largely ignored or overlooked. It wasn't until the series moved beyond that that it started to get some significant recognition. Again, despite starting as Cage's book, the series really took off once Iron Fist became a co-star and it became more about the characters than the issue of race.

[RDMacQ]

Let's see . . . he workded for hire, he didn't have a secret identity, he didn't (at least at first) have a code name, he was an ex-con, living under an assumed name. I'm sure there's more, but I can't recall.

And, of course, the obvious counter to your question is to ask: If he didn't have anything that set him apart from other heroes, if he was just like every other hero in existence, what would be the point of making him Black in the first place? One of the reasons a big deal was made out of it was because he was different and brought something to comics that Spider-Man, Daredevil, etc. didn't.

I get that the comic was produced at a different time, and producing a comic about a black superhero was pretty brave. However, Cage being a black superhero doesn't really set him apart from other heroes these days, as there are plenty of minority superheroes like Cyborg and Storm and the Falcon who don't have their race at the forefront of their identities. You do make a good point about if Cage wasn't black, his debut wouldn't be that big of a deal. However, that sort of thing isn't going to carry the book forever, and to be successful the series needed to offer more than just being a noble ideal.

[XPac]

Agreed. And that is the bigger issue. As the nation's demographics change, evident by the diverse forms of entertainment that are presently successful--Wizards of Waverly place, High School Musical, True Blood, Lost, etc. Its is only a matter of time before this changes the comics landscape.

And I agree diversity doesn't begin and end with Black People. I am for more Women, Asians, Latinos, Russian(wink at Winter Guard) Native peeps, overweight, working class, elderly ( like Destroyer) and disabled heroes. And more.

Yeah, it is interesting how diversity often translates to black people.

Mighty Avengers has been criticised as being overly white... but right now it does an asian on board.

And the prior team had a female leader, a russian, and a greek on board. But diversity often equates to skin color, so white is white at least in terms of perception.

I suppose because the black community is the most vocal about it, it just sort of unofficially ended up equating to the notion of diversity.

[7thangel]

What I am trying to say is that while the X-Men may have dealt with issues like racism or proxies thereof, it wasn't a factor of the books that was actively promoted over the more superhero centric action. It wasn't like the Truth series, which was putting race issues at the very forefront of the comic.



Which is why they are largely ignored or overlooked. It wasn't until the series moved beyond that that it started to get some significant recognition. Again, despite starting as Cage's book, the series really took off once Iron Fist became a co-star and it became more about the characters than the issue of race.

the plight of mutants is always present in the x-books

powerman's issue wasn't race it was a clumsy attempt to cash in on blaxploitation but at the same time it succeeded in bringing a black character in the MU. and he's still around despite his dubious start.

i'm really curious about what you consider putting race or sex or orientation out there in the forefront means, and please let's keep it in this century.

[kalorama]

I get that the comic was produced at a different time, and producing a comic about a black superhero was pretty brave. However, Cage being a black superhero doesn't really set him apart from other heroes these days, as there are plenty of minority superheroes like Cyborg and Storm and the Falcon who don't have their race at the forefront of their identities.

Again, as long as it's obvious that they are, in fact, Black, their race is and always will be at the forefront of their identities. It's the first thing people will notice about them and shapes, to varying degrees, how people will view them. That's a simple, basic fact of life in American society.

[kalorama]

Which is why they are largely ignored or overlooked. It wasn't until the series moved beyond that that it started to get some significant recognition. Again, despite starting as Cage's book, the series really took off once Iron Fist became a co-star and it became more about the characters than the issue of race.

The book was never "about the issue of race." it was about a Black character whose life experiences were shaped in large part by his race. That's a huge distinction.

[kalorama]

And the prior team had a female leader, a russian, and a greek on board. But diversity often equates to skin color, so white is white at least in terms of perception.

I suppose because the black community is the most vocal about it, it just sort of unofficially ended up equating to the notion of diversity.

It has nothing to do with being "vocal." It has to do with the history of how the issue of race in this country. To anyone passing them on the street (or the comic rack) Greeks and Russians are white and are treated as such. The same doesn't apply to Blacks.

[Kasper Cole]

If it hinders people to the point where they're turned off to the book, then the problem is marvels and the books too. Again, risk and reward.

But it doesn't always turn people off... if it's done WELL it probably won't be a problem. I don't recall too many complaints over Cage playing the race card a bit during Civil War. That worked just fine. Maybe it's a simple matter of writing... maybe the times where racial issues rerailed the story was a simple matter of the stories not being strong enough to keep people on the rails.

Actually it was, Look at some old posts about it on this board and others and you'll see a good bit of complaining (mostly by folks who were pro reg) about that line. I think most people misinterpret the line though as cage saying the SHRA is JUST like slavery when in reality he's simply saying just because something is a law doesn't mean it's right (eg slavery).

[StoneGold]

Let's see . . . he workded for hire, he didn't have a secret identity, he didn't (at least at first) have a code name, he was an ex-con, living under an assumed name. I'm sure there's more, but I can't recall.



He didn't have a skintight costume. At least, not as first. You look at those early issues, and he was clearly wearing blue-for-black leather pants.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/luke%20cage.jpg


Although, you look at the early FF costumes, they weren't that skin tight either. Either way, this was an early non-costume costume.

[StoneGold]

Actually it was, Look at some old posts about it on this board and others and you'll see a good bit of complaining (mostly by folks who were pro reg) about that line. I think most people misinterpret the line though as cage saying the SHRA is JUST like slavery when in reality he's simply saying just because something is a law doesn't mean it's right (eg slavery).

Eh, giving Bendis too much credit. Figure it's just a white guy writing a black guy, so when he gets mad, it's right to slavery. Although given the occasional post on the board, it's not like it's a completely out of left-field characterization.

[XPac]

Actually it was, Look at some old posts about it on this board and others and you'll see a good bit of complaining (mostly by folks who were pro reg) about that line. I think most people misinterpret the line though as cage saying the SHRA is JUST like slavery when in reality he's simply saying just because something is a law doesn't mean it's right (eg slavery).

Yeah, but that doesn't really derail the story. If anything, it raises the level of debate for the story. That's a case where I think it REALLY worked. The picked exactly the right character to raise exactly the right point which struck exactly the right cord.

Bringing up racial issues doesn't always hurt the story... it can HELP it. It did in that instance (in my opinion anyways). It's all about execution.

[Kasper Cole]

Yeah, it is interesting how diversity often translates to black people.

Mighty Avengers has been criticised as being overly white... but right now it does an asian on board.

And the prior team had a female leader, a russian, and a greek on board. But diversity often equates to skin color, so white is white at least in terms of perception.

I suppose because the black community is the most vocal about it, it just sort of unofficially ended up equating to the notion of diversity.

the FIRST mighty Avengers team was criticized for being totally white. I don't think anyone has said anything about the current team. Nobody said that the Mighty Avengers team was totally devoid of diversity.

The reason you heard so much complaining about the all white team was because the idea of an all black Avengers team is constantly being blasted as being forced and such, then all of a sudden the Mighty "white" Avengers as they were sometimes called show up and initially nobody even blinked or said anything about it, while conversely The Crew has a predominantly black cast and gets labeled a ghetto book.

[Kasper Cole]

Eh, giving Bendis too much credit. Figure it's just a white guy writing a black guy, so when he gets mad, it's right to slavery. Although given the occasional post on the board, it's not like it's a completely out of left-field characterization.

No that's exactly how it was written.

Iron man says "This is about breaking the law" and Cage says in response "Slavery used to be a law" that's him saying just because something is a law doesn't make it right.

Now you could say the dialog before that was him "playing the race card" (a phrase I hate but for the purpose of this debate will use) because he just brought up Mississippi in the 1950 out of no where.

[Kasper Cole]

Yeah, but that doesn't really derail the story. If anything, it raises the level of debate for the story. That's a case where I think it REALLY worked. The picked exactly the right character to raise exactly the right point which struck exactly the right cord.

Bringing up racial issues doesn't always hurt the story... it can HELP it. It did in that instance (in my opinion anyways). It's all about execution.

Why does a racial issue have to derail a story though? Sometimes the story IS about a racial issue. For all the talk of the X-Men keeping it subtle I see no complaints about God Loves, Man Kills or Magneto: Testament.


In the X-Men comics characters like Colossus, Nightcrawlers, Warpath, Dani Moonstar, Cannonball nationalities, races, and culture are NEVER ignored or downplayed, if anything they're celebrated so why does it have to be ignored with black character? :confused:

[StoneGold]

No that's exactly how it was written.

Iron man says "This is about breaking the law" and Cage says in response "Slavery used to be a law" that's him saying just because something is a law doesn't make it right.


Yeah, but it's also a vaginal hair away from being Godwin's Law. How are you going to argue with a black man who just brought up that your law is the moral equivalent to slavery? Just engaging in the argument is a losing battle. There's no discourse at that point.

Granted, Cage wasn't really trying to have a lively debate.