Discussing Tom Brevoort's belief on Comic Fans not supporting Minority Characters

[marvell2100]

Count me in for the Voodoo fest.

[marvell2100]

Well to be fair they are part white and can easily pass for white, unlike Shadowman.

Really. I didn't know that Slash from Guns N Roses is half black too.

[Greg Anderson]

Is this the cover you're talking bout, Blade X? I don't see what's wrong with it, but maybe it's just me.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48157/934245-177680_20090827140248_large_super.jpg

[Umbra]

Is this the cover you're talking bout, Blade X? I don't see what's wrong with it, but maybe it's just me.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48157/934245-177680_20090827140248_large_super.jpg


I agree...

There is nothing wrong with Cage. There is nothing wrong at all. I like the love and support Bendis is giving him, damn the costume. What matters is he is a focal point, and a lot of the time the main focal point of the most popular and influence marvel title.

Who cares about a costume? To me that is nitpicking and very trivial. But that is my opinion. I can see him wearing a costume once and a while, but that fact that he just wears clothing is different. It makes him stand out. Good job Bendis.

Also lets give him a hand for pushing Brother Voodoo, spear heading his redefining, and adding the third male minority solo (the other being BP and WM even though the latter is going away).

Also, give props to Marvel for the support of Black Panther. From the things folks are saying he is going to have a big 2010.

[Greg Anderson]

Loving the current Black Panther book. T'Challa is gonna kick all types of much needed ass.

I have noticed a bit of a rise in popularity for Cage. Since they put him in the first Marvel Alliance game, I've noticed quite a few people ended up knowing about him, non-readers I mean. And a few weeks ago a friend of mine walked into the store with a Marvel t-shirt displaying Daredevil, Spidey, Captain America, Iron Man, Hulk, Wolverine and with them was Luke Cage.

[Umbra]

Loving the current Black Panther book. T'Challa is gonna kick all types of much needed ass.

I have noticed a bit of a rise in popularity for Cage. Since they put him in the first Marvel Alliance game, I've noticed quite a few people ended up knowing about him, non-readers I mean. And a few weeks ago a friend of mine walked into the store with a Marvel t-shirt displaying Daredevil, Spidey, Captain America, Iron Man, Hulk, Wolverine and with them was Luke Cage.

Agreed.

I was reading this debate between a few creators and they even talked about some heroes not always wearing costumes. So right there, this is where Luke Cage is ahead.

Give him a suit, but unless it's some big mission...then he should not wear it. It something that makes him stand out. Lets not send this character backward, no tiara or gold bangles either.

[Freakzeek]

I agree...

There is nothing wrong with Cage. There is nothing wrong at all. I like the love and support Bendis is giving him, damn the costume. What matters is he is a focal point, and a lot of the time the main focal point of the most popular and influence marvel title.

Who cares about a costume? To me that is nitpicking and very trivial. But that is my opinion. I can see him wearing a costume once and a while, but that fact that he just wears clothing is different. It makes him stand out. Good job Bendis.

Also lets give him a hand for pushing Brother Voodoo, spear heading his redefining, and adding the third male minority solo (the other being BP and WM even though the latter is going away).

Also, give props to Marvel for the support of Black Panther. From the things folks are saying he is going to have a big 2010.

^ OFT !!!!, There's nothing wrong with Cage or The cover, I'm not the

stereotypical Black dude whose into Gangsta Rap or Loose/Urban Culture, & I

would like more variation regarding Black Characters as a whole, but Cage is

Perfect as he is, He really reminds me of my Boxing Coach wears baggy

clothing, speaks in slang but one of the most refined & cultured people I have

ever met.

When you really think about He's more of a marvel hero than Spidey, An

average man of the streets, that was wrongly put away & accidentally got

powers from it, Like most people would do in real life, he used his powers for

gain(Hero for Hire) & eventually over the years rose into being a true hero.

That's layered story telling, he's just not a man who decided to don a silly

costume to fight crime, he's just a dude that just came into power & decided to

do all he can to help those in need. Not out of personal guilt(spiderman,

Ironman, not out of duty/responsibility(Black Panther), not of patriotism(Captain
America),

But out of true blue desire to help & defend the little man. So what if he wears

Baggy clothing & speaks a certain way? I know plenty of people who do, He's

not a walking stereotype, though the world may see him as such, just like they

do most black people, he leads a double life, what the world sees & who he

truly is.

[Monty_Cristo]

I agree...

There is nothing wrong with Cage. There is nothing wrong at all. I like the love and support Bendis is giving him, damn the costume. What matters is he is a focal point, and a lot of the time the main focal point of the most popular and influence marvel title.

Who cares about a costume? To me that is nitpicking and very trivial. But that is my opinion. I can see him wearing a costume once and a while, but that fact that he just wears clothing is different. It makes him stand out. Good job Bendis.

Also lets give him a hand for pushing Brother Voodoo, spear heading his redefining, and adding the third male minority solo (the other being BP and WM even though the latter is going away).

Also, give props to Marvel for the support of Black Panther. From the things folks are saying he is going to have a big 2010.

Cage sucks as a focal point. i hate what has been done to him. and i'm not giving Bendis props for any of this. it makes me so sick that he gets credit while everyone else does the damn work. he didn't make the Sentry great. he didn't make the Hood great. he didn't make White Tiger great. he's not writing Brother Voodoo. if the character takes off, Bendis will get the credit for it. if the character fails as the Sorceror Supreme it won't be Bendis who gets the blame. the man just isn't all that creative. he just name drops old characters.

[Majinoaw]

Cage sucks as a focal point. i hate what has been done to him. and i'm not giving Bendis props for any of this. it makes me so sick that he gets credit while everyone else does the damn work. he didn't make the Sentry great. he didn't make the Hood great. he didn't make White Tiger great. he's not writing Brother Voodoo. if the character takes off, Bendis will get the credit for it. if the character fails as the Sorceror Supreme it won't be Bendis who gets the blame. the man just isn't all that creative. he just name drops old characters.

Shortpack is the best minority character ever.

[Monty_Cristo]

Shortpack is the best minority character ever.

technically, he's the only minority character; ever. don't reply. just go with me on this one. :biggrin:

[RolandJP]

technically, he's the only minority character; ever. don't reply. just go with me on this one. :biggrin:


Im gonna need some scans as proof. :tongue:

[Umbra]

Cage sucks as a focal point. i hate what has been done to him. and i'm not giving Bendis props for any of this. it makes me so sick that he gets credit while everyone else does the damn work. he didn't make the Sentry great. he didn't make the Hood great. he didn't make White Tiger great. he's not writing Brother Voodoo. if the character takes off, Bendis will get the credit for it. if the character fails as the Sorceror Supreme it won't be Bendis who gets the blame. the man just isn't all that creative. he just name drops old characters.

Why would he not get credit? Tom Brevoort (former BP editor for Priest also) also get major credit. As does Axel Alonso, Hudlin, Maberry (when talking about BP). After reading the first issue of Doctor Voodoo...give Mr. R.R major credit.
But Bendis still deserves credit for pushing to use this characters that for years were mostly in the back ground or second fiddle.

If Bendis uses a character or pushes them into the spot light...why should that be ignored? I wish more creators that had this much power would push more characters in the same way.

I also give props to Gage, and Aaron (think you forever for the SI arc) and Yost (Worlds Apart).

But in this case I'm giving Bendis credit.

But that is just my opinion. :biggrin:

[Blade X]

Is this the cover you're talking bout, Blade X? I don't see what's wrong with it, but maybe it's just me.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48157/934245-177680_20090827140248_large_super.jpg

Yep, that's the cover.

[Ikonic]

It's the same costume as the Hulk! What's the problem? A green guy can wear purple pants, a red guy can wear black pants, but a brown guy wearing dark jeans is too much? Lol!

[Alan2099]

Is this the cover you're talking bout, Blade X? I don't see what's wrong with it, but maybe it's just me.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48157/934245-177680_20090827140248_large_super.jpg

If I didn't know for a fact that was supposed to be Cage, I wouldn't have the slightest clue who I was looking at.

As it is, I know it's supposed to be Cage and I'm still not positive that's him.

Not having a costume only works when you've got a definite look that stands out and aren't surrounding yourself with other people in costume.

[Monty_Cristo]

It's the same costume as the Hulk! What's the problem? A green guy can wear purple pants, a red guy can wear black pants, but a brown guy wearing dark jeans is too much? Lol!

being green or red is a costume.

[XPac]

If I didn't know for a fact that was supposed to be Cage, I wouldn't have the slightest clue who I was looking at.

As it is, I know it's supposed to be Cage and I'm still not positive that's him.

Not having a costume only works when you've got a definite look that stands out and aren't surrounding yourself with other people in costume.

It's really not that hard.

More often than not, he's the only guy in a scene not wearing brightly colored spandex.

[Whirlwind Dinamo]

Yeah and part of the problem is the Majority ethnic group is buying up the comic, can you see a comic where they have this spanish dude leading the pack and he goes home and for 40% of the comic the dialogue is no longer in English but in SPANISH, with Spanish families, totally immersed in latino culture. There might even be some online protests that not only did people have to pay four bucks for the issue the also had to buy a dictionary or use google translate to figure out what the hell was going on. Don't get me wrong, I think a Mexican dude leading the Avengers with almost half the text in Spanish might make a great arc if done right, make it a dude from the Caribbean forcing French on young readers or even a few phrases in Chinese or Kiswahili. But the facts are comics over the years were mostly aimed at the Majority and Marvel still has work to do if it wants to bridge the gap to Minority Characters.

[DavidMunroe]

Storm did get her own mini awhile back... not sure how well it did though. Hopefully it did well enough for marvel to at least give her another shot.

Or give her another X-Men team to lead, like they did with Xtreme X-Men. That might work.


The mini was great IMO! Yost writes a bad-ass Storm, who knows how to very much so use her powers in many ways!

I think it would be cool if down the line Storm would get her own team....like maybe Storm finds out about X-Force and rejects Cyclops ways and forms her own team of X-Men that still believe in the old school dream...then we could have cool confrontations where her team is stopping X-Force from killing targets...opps sorry got lost in my "I wish I wrote for Storm" moments lol... but yeah she is marketable, appealing, popular...why doesn't marvel use her like they do Emma, Scott or Wolverine! Hell, let Storm lead a bad-ass Wakandian team!

PS to Marvel... don't bring comic Storm down to movie Storms level please...demand movie Storm is on comic Storms level!

[7thangel]

Yeah and part of the problem is the Majority ethnic group is buying up the comic, can you see a comic where they have this spanish dude leading the pack and he goes home and for 40% of the comic the dialogue is no longer in English but in SPANISH, with Spanish families, totally immersed in latino culture. There might even be some online protests that not only did people have to pay four bucks for the issue the also had to buy a dictionary or use google translate to figure out what the hell was going on. Don't get me wrong, I think a Mexican dude leading the Avengers with almost half the text in Spanish might make a great arc if done right, make it a dude from the Caribbean forcing French on young readers or even a few phrases in Chinese or Kiswahili. But the facts are comics over the years were mostly aimed at the Majority and Marvel still has work to do if it wants to bridge the gap to Minority Characters.
i'm sorry, but why would he need to speak spanish when he goes home?

[kalorama]

being green or red is a costume.

No it's not. It's a skin color. And it makes them readily identifiable because there's no one else who looks like them anywhere around them. Same for Cage. He doesn't need a costume for people to ID him in the Avengers because, last I checked, he was the only 6 foot tall bald Black guy on the team.

[Freakzeek]

Yeah and part of the problem is the Majority ethnic group is buying up the comic, can you see a comic where they have this spanish dude leading the pack and he goes home and for 40% of the comic the dialogue is no longer in English but in SPANISH, with Spanish families, totally immersed in latino culture. There might even be some online protests that not only did people have to pay four bucks for the issue the also had to buy a dictionary or use google translate to figure out what the hell was going on. Don't get me wrong, I think a Mexican dude leading the Avengers with almost half the text in Spanish might make a great arc if done right, make it a dude from the Caribbean forcing French on young readers or even a few phrases in Chinese or Kiswahili. But the facts are comics over the years were mostly aimed at the Majority and Marvel still has work to do if it wants to bridge the gap to Minority Characters.
First things first, Most Latino's aren't spainish & why would he speak spanish at home, assuming he can speak spanish?

[7thangel]

hell, did comics stop using *<this to show that someone is speaking another language>?


*in case you didn't know, i was speaking tagalog

[Kasper Cole]

i'm sorry, but why would he need to speak spanish when he goes home?

Some families who are bilingual make it a point for them and their kids to ONLY speak their native language in the home.



hell, did comics stop using *<this to show that someone is speaking another language>?


*in case you didn't know, i was speaking tagalog

I wish that was used so much more. It bugs me to see people in Wakanda speaking english all the time.

[7thangel]

Some families who are bilingual make it a point for them and their kids to ONLY speak their native language in the home.






but the point is, why would 'this imaginary hero' have to?
why assume that this character even speaks the language or that it's their native tongue?

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Not sure how many people have read it, but Doctor Voodoo is a great new ongoing and I think the success of the book will either prove or disprove the main argument in this thread.

Great creative team, an "important title" and it's part of the Avenger family. Along with good word of mouth, it has everything it needs to succeed except for a formerly D-list character. I hope other readers try it out because it's worth it, and it'll show that the comic fanbase will support books with minorities when they're good.

[Alan2099]

I hate when characters speak in a language I can't understand in books.

I think they should either stick to the basic "*translated from whatever" captions and maybe occasionally have them toss in a few words of their native lanfgaue like Colossus and Nightcrawler always used to do.

[Sandy Hausler]

There is one thing Marvel or Disney can do. Fix distribution so that comics would no longer be non-returnable. It would make it a lot more enticing for retailers to take a few risks when ordering books.

Hasn't that been the case for decades?

Sandy Hausler

[carabas]

No. Comic books sales in the direct market are non-returnable.
You buy 100 copies of Criminal and are able to sell only 20, you get stuck with 80 books.

[RolandJP]

No. Comic books sales in the direct market are non-returnable.
You buy 100 copies of Criminal and are able to sell only 20, you get stuck with 80 books.

Fun times.

[Blade X]

It's the same costume as the Hulk! What's the problem? A green guy can wear purple pants, a red guy can wear black pants, but a brown guy wearing dark jeans is too much? Lol!

1. Being "brown" or "black" in both real life and the fictional world of superhero comics is not the same thing as being a green or red skin man monster.

2. Neither Hulk or this current version of Cage is wearing a costume.

3. The problem with this drawing of Cage is that it smacks of an artist either deciding on his own or being told to draw a tough looking black man from the ghetto/streets, instead of deciding to or being told to draw a tough looking superhero character who happened to be black.

[Kasper Cole]

3. The problem with this drawing of Cage is that it smacks of an artist either deciding on his own or being told to draw a tough looking black man from the ghetto/streets, instead of deciding to or being told to draw a tough looking superhero character who happened to be black.


But Cage IS a tough looking black man from the streets.......

The only difference between That cover and the cover of Luke Cage Hero for Hire is the yellow shirt, tiara and blue pants.

[kalorama]

But Cage IS a tough looking black man from the streets.......

Exactly. . .

[kalorama]

There is one thing Marvel or Disney can do. Fix distribution so that comics would no longer be non-returnable. It would make it a lot more enticing for retailers to take a few risks when ordering books.

No it wouldn't. If anything it would make them even less likely to take any risks.

[kalorama]

1. Being "brown" or "black" in both real life and the fictional world of superhero comics is not the same thing as being a green or red skin man monster..

It's not the same thing in "real life" because last I checked there are no green or red people in real life, so that's a largely irrelevant issue. As far as comics go . . . no one said Cage was a monster. Nice try at trying to skew the argument with a straw man, though. Now, as far as skin color and mode of non-costumed dress goes: in terms of being an identifying characteristic because of its uniqueness . . . yeah, it's exactly the same thing. The Hulk stands out because he doesn't look like anyone else around him, so a costume is superfluous. Among the Avengers Cage stands out for much the same reason, making a costume superfluous (not to mention in contradiction to his character's background).

[G. Boney]

The Hulk stands out because he doesn't look like anyone else around him, so a costume is superfluous. Among the Avengers Cage stands out for much the same reason, making a costume superfluous (not to mention in contradiction to his character's background).

Are you saying because he's black a costume is superfluous?

[kalorama]

Are you saying because he's black a costume is superfluous?

I'm saying that the argument (which has been presented here by more than one person) that he needs a costume for the purposes of identification or recognizability is ridiculous. He's the only person on the Avengers who looks anything like he does, so anyone who claims they have trouble ID-ing him is talking nonsense. He's easily identifiable among the Avengers (or among any of Marvel's hero's for that matter), partly because he's the only Black member, sure; but mostly because he's the only one not wearing a brightly colored costume. The argument that he needs a costume because his look isn't identifiable or unique is a nonstarter because, in the world of Marvel's costumed heroes, his look is unique.

[Blade X]

But Cage IS a tough looking black man from the streets.......

The only difference between That cover and the cover of Luke Cage Hero for Hire is the yellow shirt, tiara and blue pants.

Not all tough black guys from the streets either (a) pose like that or (b) look tough.

And if you think that the only difference between that NA variant cover and the cover for LCHFH is the yellow shirt, then I think you need to borrow my glasses.


It's not the same thing in "real life" because last I checked there are no green or red people in real life, so that's a largely irrelevant issue. As far as comics go . . . no one said Cage was a monster. Nice try at trying to skew the argument with a straw man, though. Now, as far as skin color and mode of non-costumed dress goes: in terms of being an identifying characteristic because of its uniqueness . . . yeah, it's exactly the same thing. The Hulk stands out because he doesn't look like anyone else around him, so a costume is superfluous. Among the Avengers Cage stands out for much the same reason, making a costume superfluous (not to mention in contradiction to his character's background).

Where in my post did I say or imply that anyone said Cage was a monster? My was/is that equating a black person's skin color as an identifying and distinctive characteristic similar to the two Hulks, is pretty damn stupid and ignorant.

And for the record, I'm not calling you or anyone else on the opposing side pf this debate, stupid and/or ignorant.


I'm saying that the argument (which has been presented here by more than one person) that he needs a costume for the purposes of identification or recognizability is ridiculous. He's the only person on the Avengers who looks anything like he does, so anyone who claims they have trouble ID-ing him is talking nonsense. He's easily identifiable among the Avengers (or among any of Marvel's hero's for that matter), partly because he's the only Black member, sure; but mostly because he's the only one not wearing a brightly colored costume. The argument that he needs a costume because his look isn't identifiable or unique is a nonstarter because, in the world of Marvel's costumed heroes, his look is unique.

And yet, if you put Cage in the middle of a picture with other bald headed male black heroes who are out of costume and wearing normal clothes, you would have a hard time telling those characters apart. There's nothing special or outstanding about Cage's current look.

[Alan2099]

So, let me see if I'm getting you here.

His definitive trait is that he looks like some generic black guy that wandered in from the crowd?

(I still remember somebody asking me who the black guy Captain America and Spider-man was defending on the cover of New Avengers #2.)

[Greg Anderson]

(I still remember somebody asking me who the black guy Captain America and Spider-man was defending on the cover of New Avengers #2.)

AHAHAHA!! :biggrin:

[pitbull in a skirt]

“I don't know that it's any one thing, but if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that it's all part of the same phenomenon that makes it more difficult to sell series with female leads, or African-American leads, or leads of any other particular cultural bent. Because we're an American company whose primary distribution is centered around America, the great majority of our existing audience seems to be white American males. So while within that demographic you'll find people who are interested in a wide assortment of characters of diverse ethnicities and backgrounds, whenever your leads are white American males, you've got a better chance of reaching more people overall. I don't know that it's any one thing, but if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that it's all part of the same phenomenon that makes it more difficult to sell series with female leads, or African-American leads, or leads of any other particular cultural bent. Because we're an American company whose primary distribution is centered around America, the great majority of our existing audience seems to be white American males. So while within that demographic you'll find people who are interested in a wide assortment of characters of diverse ethnicities and backgrounds, whenever your leads are white American males, you've got a better chance of reaching more people overall.”

People still say "African American"? I wasn't aware all black people are American :smile:

I know people think they're being 'proper' when they say that, but they couldn't be in any more inaccurate, actually. We reside from other places besides Africa and America.

[Kasper Cole]

Not all tough black guys from the streets either (a) pose like that or (b) look tough.

Not all do but Luke Cage does....If that was Falcon or War Machine posing like that on a cover then I'd agree with you, but for Luke Cage there is nothing wrong with it at all.


And if you think that the only difference between that NA variant cover and the cover for LCHFH is the yellow shirt, then I think you need to borrow my glasses.

Obviously they're not EXACTLY the same but both covers have Luke Cage mean mugging looking like he's about to whoop somebodies ass.

[Hypestyle]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=1453

Dr. voodoo had better be promoted heavily, advertisements in other comics..

[Calvin Government]

Not sure how many people have read it, but Doctor Voodoo is a great new ongoing and I think the success of the book will either prove or disprove the main argument in this thread.

Great creative team, an "important title" and it's part of the Avenger family. Along with good word of mouth, it has everything it needs to succeed except for a formerly D-list character. I hope other readers try it out because it's worth it, and it'll show that the comic fanbase will support books with minorities when they're good.

But we've already illustrated that the comic fanbase won't support minorities when they're good. There have been a lot of great books led by minority casts that have failed miserably, and the rather middling reviews Voodoo's first issue received aren't promising.

Even if Doctor Voodoo manages to overcome both negatives (being a minority AND being in a 'mystic' book) because of the Avengers tie, one random outlier does not disprove a long-running, well-established trend.

[Kasper Cole]

People still say "African American"? I wasn't aware all black people are American :smile:

I know people think they're being 'proper' when they say that, but they couldn't be in any more inaccurate, actually. We reside from other places besides Africa and America.

Uhhh, what? :confused:

I get what you're saying but I don't see how it relates to that article.

[kalorama]

Where in my post did I say or imply that anyone said Cage was a monster?

Right here:


1. Being "brown" or "black" in both real life and the fictional world of superhero comics is not the same thing as being a green or red skin man monster.

My original post only equated Hulk and Cage on the issue of them both having hued skin and how that stands out in a crowd of people who don't. I made no reference or inference to either of them being a monster, so you were clearly attempting to make a point by bringing it up in response, given that I never mentioned it.


My was/is that equating a black person's skin color as an identifying and distinctive characteristic similar to the two Hulks, is pretty damn stupid and ignorant.

And given what I actually said (which is quite a bit different than what you're trying to act like I said) , that point had no real merit.


And for the record, I'm not calling you or anyone else on the opposing side pf this debate, stupid and/or ignorant.

And, for the record, that's a load of B.S. Scroll up a few lines. You just did.


And yet, if you put Cage in the middle of a picture with other bald headed male black heroes who are out of costume and wearing normal clothes, you would have a hard time telling those characters apart.

Only if you assume that all Black people look alike or have trouble telling one from the other, which is a pretty damn stupid and ignorant thing to think. To say nothing of the fact that you pretty much made my argument: He stands out on the Avengers precisely because he's not "in the middle of a picture with other bald headed male black heroes who are out of costume and wearing normal clothes." Also, given how some artists are incapable of differentiating non-costumed faces and bodies, you could say (and many have said) the same thing about any group of heroes in their civilian clothes, regardless of race (or even gender). But we're not talking about being able to recognize him in a crowd of civilians.


There's nothing special or outstanding about Cage's current look.

Standing on a street corner in Detroit or the South Side of Chicago there isn't. On the roster of the Avengers it's every bit as distinctive as Spider-Man's or Captain America's

[pitbull in a skirt]

Uhhh, what? :confused:

I get what you're saying but I don't see how it relates to that article.

It bothers me.

[Blade X]

Right here:



My original post only equated Hulk and Cage on the issue of them both having hued skin and how that stands out in a crowd of people who don't. I made no reference or inference to either of them being a monster, so you were clearly attempting to make a point by bringing it up in response, given that I never mentioned it.



And given what I actually said (which is quite a bit different than what you're trying to act like I said) , that point had no real merit.



And, for the record, that's a load of B.S. Scroll up a few lines. You just did.



Only if you assume that all Black people look alike or have trouble telling one from the other, which is a pretty damn stupid and ignorant thing to think. To say nothing of the fact that you pretty much made my argument: He stands out on the Avengers precisely because he's not "in the middle of a picture with other bald headed male black heroes who are out of costume and wearing normal clothes." Also, given how some artists are incapable of differentiating non-costumed faces and bodies, you could say (and many have said) the same thing about any group of heroes in their civilian clothes, regardless of race (or even gender). But we're not talking about being able to recognize him in a crowd of civilians.



Standing on a street corner in Detroit or the South Side of Chicago there isn't. On the roster of the Avengers it's every bit as distinctive as Spider-Man's or Captain America's

1. No I didn't. You're trying to twist my words to make it seem like I'm trying to say that you are equating Cage (and black people in general) to monsters, which was not my intent. Again, my point/intent was/is that it's silly to put a black person (or any person of any skin tone) in the same category of a green or read man monster.

2. I did not specifically call you "stupid" or "ignorant". I was saying that it was just stupid or ignorant to equate as an identifying and distinctive characteristic in the same vein as the Hulk.

3. You know as well as I do, that when it comes drawing black characters (both male and female) there is less effort in making those characters (especially when it comes to drawing hairstyles) look different. It seems that most (not all) artists tend to settle on the easiest and most generic hairstyle for black characters. Artists often put in more effort in making the hairstyles of white characters more distinct and different then they do black characters.

4. Again, you're missing my point. When it comes to his current visual depiction, Cage's look is not all that special or unique or distinct from the average Joe. His current look is both generic and boring looking.

[Freakzeek]

1. No I didn't. You're trying to twist my words to make it seem like I'm trying to say that you are equating Cage (and black people in general) to monsters, which was not my intent. Again, my point/intent was/is that it's silly to put a black person (or any person of any skin tone) in the same category of a green or read man monster.

2. I did not specifically call you "stupid" or "ignorant". I was saying that it was just stupid or ignorant to equate as an identifying and distinctive characteristic in the same vein as the Hulk.

3. You know as well as I do, that when it comes drawing black characters (both male and female) there is less effort in making those characters (especially when it comes to drawing hairstyles) look different. It seems that most (not all) artists tend to settle on the easiest and most generic hairstyle for black characters. Artists often put in more effort in making the hairstyles of white characters more distinct and different then they do black characters.

4. Again, you're missing my point. When it comes to his current visual depiction, Cage's look is not all that special or unique or distinct from the average Joe. His current look is both generic and boring looking.
Have you checked out the new artist for Black Panther, Will Conrad? Every Black Person in that book looks different with Different Facial features & hairstyles

[kalorama]

1. No I didn't. You're trying to twist my words to make it seem like I'm trying to say that you are equating Cage (and black people in general) to monsters, which was not my intent. Again, my point/intent was/is that it's silly to put a black person (or any person of any skin tone) in the same category of a green or read man monster.

I'm twisting your words? Wow, that's rich.

I wasn't putting Cage in the "same category" as the Hulk. I wasn't putting him in any "category" at all. I was making a qualitative comparison between certain elements of two utterly fictional characters. Period. Everything else is a figment of your imagination.


2. I did not specifically call you "stupid" or "ignorant". I was saying that it was just stupid or ignorant to equate as an identifying and distinctive characteristic in the same vein as the Hulk.

Still B.S. You took what you claimed was my argument (even though it was actually your obvious (and likely willful) misrepresentation of my argument) and called it stupid and ignorant, and then tried to have it both ways by falling back on that old straw man of "I wasn't calling YOU stupid and ignorant, I was just calling what you SAID stupid and ignorant." Again, utter B.S. That tired old dodge has as much integrity as "I didn't actually SAY he so-and-so was an asshole; I was just asking the question "Is he an asshole?" It's a weak attempt to have it both ways, to be able to insult people while ducking any blowback that comes from doing so. B.S.


3. You know as well as I do, that when it comes drawing black characters (both male and female) there is less effort in making those characters (especially when it comes to drawing hairstyles) look different. It seems that most (not all) artists tend to settle on the easiest and most generic hairstyle for black characters. Artists often put in more effort in making the hairstyles of white characters more distinct and different then they do black characters.

Please refrain from attempting to tell me what I know. You don't know what I know. But since you brought it up . . . What I know is that some artists are exceptionally good at differentiating their characters physically (without costumes) regardless of race or gender, while some are really awful at it. As for how much "effort" artists put into drawing Black characters . . . unless you're standing next to their drawing boards, how do you know what kind of effort they're exerting. Not only is that a gross generalization, not only is it a speculative assumption with no provable basis in fact, it's also a one-sided argument that ignores how most artists who are weak in differentiating black characters are usually weak at doing the same with white characters, and women of all races. The idea that hordes or artists fail at depicting distinctly different faces of only Black people out of sheer laziness or disregard is a ridiculous, unsupportable, and very ugly accusation.


4. Again, you're missing my point. When it comes to his current visual depiction, Cage's look is not all that special or unique or distinct from the average Joe. His current look is both generic and boring looking.

And, again, I'm not missing your point. I'm refuting it. To wit:

It doesn't matter whether Cage's look is distinctive compared to the "average Joe" (a meaningless signifier, because there is no such thing) because the name of the book isn't "The New Average Joes" it's the New Avengers, and his look is very distinctive among their ranks.

[Freakzeek]

I'm twisting your words? Wow, that's rich.

I wasn't putting Cage in the "same category" as the Hulk. I wasn't putting him in any "category" at all. I was making a qualitative comparison between certain elements of two utterly fictional characters. Period. Everything else is a figment of your imagination.



Still B.S. You took what you claimed was my argument (even though it was actually your obvious (and likely willful) misrepresentation of my argument) and called it stupid and ignorant, and then tried to have it both ways by falling back on that old straw man of "I wasn't calling YOU stupid and ignorant, I was just calling what you SAID stupid and ignorant." Again, utter B.S. That tired old dodge has as much integrity as "I didn't actually SAY he so-and-so was an asshole; I was just asking the question "Is he an asshole?" It's a weak attempt to have it both ways, to be able to insult people while ducking any blowback that comes from doing so. B.S.



Please refrain from attempting to tell me what I know. You don't know what I know. But since you brought it up . . . What I know is that some artists are exceptionally good at differentiating their characters physically (without costumes) regardless of race or gender, while some are really awful at it. As for how much "effort" artists put into drawing Black characters . . . unless you're standing next to their drawing boards, how do you know what kind of effort they're exerting. Not only is that a gross generalization, not only is it a speculative assumption with no provable basis in fact, it's also a one-sided argument that ignores how most artists who are weak in differentiating black characters are usually weak at doing the same with white characters, and women of all races. The idea that hordes or artists fail at depicting distinctly different faces of only Black people out of sheer laziness or disregard is a ridiculous, unsupportable, and very ugly accusation.



And, again, I'm not missing your point. I'm refuting it. To wit:

It doesn't matter whether Cage's look is distinctive compared to the "average Joe" (a meaningless signifier, because there is no such thing) because the name of the book isn't "The New Average Joes" it's the New Avengers, and his look is very distinctive among their ranks.

I don't think I agree with Kalorama alot on this board, but I got to give the whole Cage Discussion to him/her. Luke Cage Is Unique in a world filled with spandex

[Blade X]

I'm twisting your words? Wow, that's rich.

I wasn't putting Cage in the "same category" as the Hulk. I wasn't putting him in any "category" at all. I was making a qualitative comparison between certain elements of two utterly fictional characters. Period. Everything else is a figment of your imagination.



Still B.S. You took what you claimed was my argument (even though it was actually your obvious (and likely willful) misrepresentation of my argument) and called it stupid and ignorant, and then tried to have it both ways by falling back on that old straw man of "I wasn't calling YOU stupid and ignorant, I was just calling what you SAID stupid and ignorant." Again, utter B.S. That tired old dodge has as much integrity as "I didn't actually SAY he so-and-so was an asshole; I was just asking the question "Is he an asshole?" It's a weak attempt to have it both ways, to be able to insult people while ducking any blowback that comes from doing so. B.S.



Please refrain from attempting to tell me what I know. You don't know what I know. But since you brought it up . . . What I know is that some artists are exceptionally good at differentiating their characters physically (without costumes) regardless of race or gender, while some are really awful at it. As for how much "effort" artists put into drawing Black characters . . . unless you're standing next to their drawing boards, how do you know what kind of effort they're exerting. Not only is that a gross generalization, not only is it a speculative assumption with no provable basis in fact, it's also a one-sided argument that ignores how most artists who are weak in differentiating black characters are usually weak at doing the same with white characters, and women of all races. The idea that hordes or artists fail at depicting distinctly different faces of only Black people out of sheer laziness or disregard is a ridiculous, unsupportable, and very ugly accusation.



And, again, I'm not missing your point. I'm refuting it. To wit:

It doesn't matter whether Cage's look is distinctive compared to the "average Joe" (a meaningless signifier, because there is no such thing) because the name of the book isn't "The New Average Joes" it's the New Avengers, and his look is very distinctive among their ranks.

1. Yes you're twisting my words, and you know it. You're the one who put Cage and Hulk in the "same category" when you said that Cage's skin color made him distinct/stand out among the Avengers like Hulk's skin color did, not me.

Aside from both character's having super strength and a invulnerability, there is no "qualitative comparison" between the two characters. Especially when it comes to the issue of race.

2. Trust me, if I wanted to call you stupid and/or ignorant, I would have and I wouldn't try to do it in a slick round about way. Remember, just because someone says or does something ignorant or stupid, does not make that person ignorant or stupid. By using your logic, if someone says that someone has failed at doing something, in your mind, that means that person is calling that other person a "failure", which is not the case or true.

3. I don't have to be in the room when they are drawing black characters to know if they are not putting in that much effort in drawing black characters, so that they are more distinct looking. All I have to do is look at the final product to see that they aren't putting that much effort into making black characters look more distinct from each other.

And for the record, I was (and still am) talking about the distinction in regards to hairstyles NOT facial features (because I agree with you that most artists have a hard time drawing distinct faces).

4. I see you continue to miss my point. No matter what book he is appearing in, Cage's current look is generic and boring and is not distinct or as unique as what the average Joe in both the real world and the fictional world of the MU wears.

[Frank]

Yea Cage needs a costume. I thought about one: How about the old costume that Doc Samson used to wear, the one with the lightning bolt? It's badass yet it's not too spandex. If somebody could photoshop it on Cage, go ahead.

[Crimson]

I'm going to throw this out there, how many mainstream TV shows or films are headed by ethnic or female stars? By comparison to white male leads, very few. Even essemble shows like Heroes, Lost and now Flashforward play a white male at the center stage (Peter, Jack and... that cop ha).

Unless you're aiming for a niche audience, the best way of getting a primetrime TV slot still seems to be sticking a white male in the lead.

And I'd still say it holds true for comics.

[babybro]

People still say "African American"? I wasn't aware all black people are American :smile:

I know people think they're being 'proper' when they say that, but they couldn't be in any more inaccurate, actually. We reside from other places besides Africa and America.

Technically, black peoeple is just as inaccurate as african american.

1) Very few black people are actually shades of black, (if any.) We are all different shades of brown. I'm lighter than this clipboard that I'm drawing on at the moment and that's brown for example, but I'm labelled black.

2) There are plenty of individuals who are as dark as we are that do not reside from Africa. I have came across more Indian people who were darker than me than lighter, but they are not called black people at all.

3) Than you have many latin american individuals who wish to claim there heritage and not be associated with "black people" and yet are as dark as we are.

Overall, IF I had a choice on what to be called. I'd just rather be called American, that's it.

[kalorama]

1. Yes you're twisting my words, and you know it. You're the one who put Cage and Hulk in the "same category" when you said that Cage's skin color made him distinct/stand out among the Avengers like Hulk's skin color did, not me.

Aside from both character's having super strength and a invulnerability, there is no "qualitative comparison" between the two characters. Especially when it comes to the issue of race.

2. Trust me, if I wanted to call you stupid and/or ignorant, I would have and I wouldn't try to do it in a slick round about way. Remember, just because someone says or does something ignorant or stupid, does not make that person ignorant or stupid. By using your logic, if someone says that someone has failed at doing something, in your mind, that means that person is calling that other person a "failure", which is not the case or true.

3. I don't have to be in the room when they are drawing black characters to know if they are not putting in that much effort in drawing black characters, so that they are more distinct looking. All I have to do is look at the final product to see that they aren't putting that much effort into making black characters look more distinct from each other.

And for the record, I was (and still am) talking about the distinction in regards to hairstyles NOT facial features (because I agree with you that most artists have a hard time drawing distinct faces).

4. I see you continue to miss my point. No matter what book he is appearing in, Cage's current look is generic and boring and is not distinct or as unique as what the average Joe in both the real world and the fictional world of the MU wears.

Actually responding in detail to this assortment of misrepresentations, evasions, and half-truths would be a waste of time. Every time someone offers a pointed counter to your argument you proceed by moving the goal posts. You unhesitatingly make unsupportable claims that cast aspirations on the motives and integrity of others, but both the tone and substance of your response call your own into serious question.

[Blade X]

Actually responding in detail to this assortment of misrepresentations, evasions, and half-truths would be a waste of time. Every time someone offers a pointed counter to your argument you proceed by moving the goal posts. You unhesitatingly make unsupportable claims that cast aspirations on the motives and integrity of others, but both the tone and substance of your response call your own into serious question.

Whatever floats your boat buddy.

[Blade X]

Have you checked out the new artist for Black Panther, Will Conrad? Every Black Person in that book looks different with Different Facial features & hairstyles

I haven't flipped through an issue of BP since the first issue of this recent series. I'll flip through it when I get the chance to.

[Blade X]

After flipping through the book at our shop, I finally gave in and read DOCTOR VOODOO #1, and I actually thought it was a pretty decent issue. It had nice art and lots of action. The only problem I had with the issue is the same problem I have with most sorcerer superheroes, his powers aren't clearly define and at times (like with the magic crows sealing off the Dark Dimension) seem to be a deux ex machina.

[Jake V]

4. I see you continue to miss my point. No matter what book he is appearing in, Cage's current look is generic and boring and is not distinct or as unique as what the average Joe in both the real world and the fictional world of the MU wears.
You might have a point if Cage appeared in books where he was only among regular civilians. He isn't. He appears in books with costumed superheroes. The fact that he doesn't wear a costume when standing next to other superheroes makes him stand out. He's a guy with superpowers who has no use for spandex. He stands out among regularly dressed "average joes" because he does things that none of them could. He's one of the most unique characters in the marvel universe in that regard.

[Umbra]

You might have a point if Cage appeared in books where he was only among regular civilians. He isn't. He appears in books with costumed superheroes. The fact that he doesn't wear a costume when standing next to other superheroes makes him stand out. He's a guy with superpowers who has no use for spandex. He stands out among regularly dressed "average joes" because he does things that none of them could. He's one of the most unique characters in the marvel universe in that regard.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[Blade X]

He's one of the most unique characters in the marvel universe in that regard.

No he's not. Pete Wisdom,Gambit (the version in X-MEN FOREVER),Hulk,John Wraith,Daughters of the Dragon (back in the day),several of the members of X-Factor,and the Fantastic Four in the first few issues of their series didn't wear costumes and dressed like the average Joe (and Jane).

[XPac]

No he's not. Pete Wisdom,Gambit (the version in X-MEN FOREVER),Hulk,John Wraith,Daughters of the Dragon (back in the day),several of the members of X-Factor,and the Fantastic Four in the first few issues of their series didn't wear costumes and dressed like the average Joe (and Jane).

Though he isn't the first or only hero to wear street clothes, I do think he does stand out because of it. He usually is the only guy in the room not wearing brightly colored spandex.

Of course, even when he did wear a costume I'd argue the metal tiarra made him stand out, but that's an entirely different issue.

[Jake V]

No he's not. Pete Wisdom,Gambit (the version in X-MEN FOREVER),Hulk,John Wraith,Daughters of the Dragon (back in the day),several of the members of X-Factor,and the Fantastic Four in the first few issues of their series didn't wear costumes and dressed like the average Joe (and Jane).

I suppose that's something for bendis to keep in mind if he ever writes Cage travelling back in time to the fantastic four's first appearance, and I'm sure some clever dialogue cues could help distinguish Cage from Pete Wisdom if they ever team up (I certainly can't tell them apart!).

Honestly, if you're arguing that because Cage dresses similarly to less than a dozen characters that he doesn't interact with, he should then dress up like literally thousands of other characters to look unique... Well, I'm not sure that me or anyone else can help you.

[Mitsaso]

I suppose that's something for bendis to keep in mind if he ever writes Cage travelling back in time to the fantastic four's first appearance, and I'm sure some clever dialogue cues could help distinguish Cage from Pete Wisdom if they ever team up (I certainly can't tell them apart!).

Honestly, if you're arguing that because Cage dresses similarly to less than a dozen characters that he doesn't interact with, he should then dress up like literally thousands of other characters to look unique... Well, I'm not sure that me or anyone else can help you.

I have a solution for Blade X! :smile:

Cage can dress in a tutu, thusly being distinguished from spandex-clad superheroes AND from super-powered people in civilian clothing.

:evilsmile:

[Freakzeek]

Actually I tire of costumes and the like. It seems utterly ridiculous that any self-respecting adult without a fetish would wear such a thing.

No. If he needs anything in the area of a costume get him some kind of belt buckle. Or certain colors to wear. when he's in one of those big hero shots.
They could give him a good one but play up the "you have a costume you should wear it so people can recognize you" and he would say something like "Fuck that costume. I hate that damn thing"....thing.

[RolandJP]

I have a solution for Blade X! :smile:

Cage can dress in a tutu, thusly being distinguished from spandex-clad superheroes AND from super-powered people in civilian clothing.

:evilsmile:

Only if Emma wears coveralls and a hardhat.

[kalorama]

No he's not. Pete Wisdom,Gambit (the version in X-MEN FOREVER),Hulk,John Wraith,Daughters of the Dragon (back in the day),several of the members of X-Factor,and the Fantastic Four in the first few issues of their series didn't wear costumes and dressed like the average Joe (and Jane).


Wisdom was the only one of that group who actually wore regular street clothes as members of a super team, and even then he always wore nice suits. Misty Knight and Colleen Wing were have always worn stylized outfits when going into action, as opposed to Cage, who wears normal off-the rack street wear.

Bringing up the first issue of the FF is just a desperate reach.

[kalorama]

I suppose that's something for bendis to keep in mind if he ever writes Cage travelling back in time to the fantastic four's first appearance, and I'm sure some clever dialogue cues could help distinguish Cage from Pete Wisdom if they ever team up (I certainly can't tell them apart!).

Honestly, if you're arguing that because Cage dresses similarly to less than a dozen characters that he doesn't interact with, he should then dress up like literally thousands of other characters to look unique... Well, I'm not sure that me or anyone else can help you.

Nicely said.

[pitbull in a skirt]

3) Than you have many latin american individuals who wish to claim there heritage and not be associated with "black people" and yet are as dark as we are.


There's a lot of black-aphobia with afro-latinos. They rather claim they're "Spanish" than black, even though they're A) Not from Spain B) Spaniards are white C) Spanish is a language anyway.

[Ikonic]

Honestly, if you're arguing that because Cage dresses similarly to less than a dozen characters that he doesn't interact with, he should then dress up like literally thousands of other characters to look unique... Well, I'm not sure that me or anyone else can help you.

A very impressive reply!

[babybro]

There's a lot of black-aphobia with afro-latinos. They rather claim they're "Spanish" than black, even though they're A) Not from Spain B) Spaniards are white C) Spanish is a language anyway.

Huh? Spain was never mention. I'm talking about black mexicans, black Puerto Ricans, Brazilians, and literally hundreds of latin countries where they only associate with their latin culture. I live in san diego, and watched a television show in spanish along with my friend regarding a few black mexicans and their experience in the states. How people automatically looped them in as being black when they are not black, they are mexican. But because everything is judge by looks, they are associated as being black.

So initially, it's still one of the three main points that show that the "black usage" is filled with holes and errors. If I had to choose between African American and black, I'd choose African American, but if I had a complete choice, I'd just say American.

[G. Boney]

Huh? Spain was never mention. I'm talking about black mexicans, black Puerto Ricans, Brazilians, and literally hundreds of latin countries where they only associate with their latin culture. I live in san diego, and watched a television show in spanish along with my friend regarding a few black mexicans and their experience in the states. How people automatically looped them in as being black when they are not black, they are mexican. But because everything is judge by looks, they are associated as being black.

Which goes right back to this:


There's a lot of black-aphobia with afro-latinos.

[babybro]

Which goes right back to this:

Not really sure what you and he meant by black-aphobia?

[4sake]

Not really sure what you and he meant by black-aphobia?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Blackaphobia&defid=4218076

[babybro]

Ah gotcha, and with that said, I partially agree but mostly don't. There are a few people that do not wish to associate with being viewed as black because of the possible negative stereotypes that are effected with being black.

But at the same time, there are many dark skin latinos who just want to be associated with their culture. The problem that exist within the us that is seen by both black and white culture is that if you look afro, you are afro, even if you are not. There is this automatic inclusion that assumes that someone needs to be associated with the afro group just because of physical appearance, and that's not how it should be.

Ex. Obama. Obama is constantly viewed as a black men even though he isn't JUST a black man, he is a black man, but also a white man, but because of his appearance, people wnat to include him as being black, even though he isn't JUST black. To say he is just black rudely ignores his white heritage which is equally as important, for without his white heritage, there is no obama.

But even more so are the dark skin latinos. Because they have their own culture. The latin culture of whatever country they belong to. They should not be forced or need to be included in the american of african descent culture because essentially, they aren't. They are latin, and if they want to be seen and viewed as latin, they should be without ridicule by the white and black population.

Edit: Another example, I go to college for a visual arts major so I can draw comics. I go home and check my email and I receive this letter from the African American association discussing how they are having groups and and meet up and blah blah blah.

and I was like

1) How in the world did they get my email.

2) How can they just assume that I want to come.

Of course I didn't go, I don't associate base on race. If we are friends, we're friends, if not, we aren't. But this AA association automatically assumed I wanted to be part of it and I should be part of it, only because I'm black. So again, this auto inclusion process creates it's downsides.

[Blade X]

Ah gotcha, and with that said, I partially agree but mostly don't. There are a few people that do not wish to associate with being viewed as black because of the possible negative stereotypes that are effected with being black.

But at the same time, there are many dark skin latinos who just want to be associated with their culture. The problem that exist within the us that is seen by both black and white culture is that if you look afro, you are afro, even if you are not. There is this automatic inclusion that assumes that someone needs to be associated with the afro group just because of physical appearance, and that's not how it should be.

Ex. Obama. Obama is constantly viewed as a black men even though he isn't JUST a black man, he is a black man, but also a white man, but because of his appearance, people wnat to include him as being black, even though he isn't JUST black. To say he is just black rudely ignores his white heritage which is equally as important, for without his white heritage, there is no obama.

But even more so are the dark skin latinos. Because they have their own culture. The latin culture of whatever country they belong to. They should not be forced or need to be included in the american of african descent culture because essentially, they aren't. They are latin, and if they want to be seen and viewed as latin, they should be without ridicule by the white and black population.

In other words, you're saying that Latinos of African descent should have the right to see/identify themselves by their culture and/or nationality instead of their African ancestry. Am I correct?

As you have already pointed out in your post, any non Latino person of black African descent is automatically considered to be black in America due to the asinine and racist 1/16 drop of black blood rule. As I have said several times before on these boards, if the 1/16 drop of black blood rule is to be adhered to, then a very large number of Latinos could be labeled "black of African descent".

OMT, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a lot of Latino culture derived from Africa as well as Spain and Native American culture.

[babybro]

In other words, you're saying that Latinos of African descent should have the right to see/identify themselves by their culture and/or nationality instead of their African ancestry. Am I correct?

As you have already pointed out in your post, any non Latino person of black African descent is automatically considered to be black in America due to the asinine and racist 1/16 drop of black blood rule. As I have said several times before on these boards, if the 1/16 drop of black blood rule is to be adhered to, then a very large number of Latinos could be labeled "black of African descent".

OMT, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a lot of Latino culture derived from Africa as well as Spain and Native American culture.

Exactly! You caught my point exactly. In regards to latino culture, you have to keep in mind that latino's are not looped into one group. For example, mexican culture is quite different from brazilian culture which is quite different from spainard culture which is quite different from argetina culture, and so on and so forth. So what might be applied to say mexican culture cannot be the same as brazilian culture.

It's just like how people group asian cultures together when there are a lot of differences between them.

With that said, your last statement would primarily depend upon the country. I do believe that mexican culture has a lot of fusion with Native American culture because Native Americans traveled deeply in Mexico. Certain countries at the bottom of south america has more influence from Africa. As stated before, it just depends upon which country you are speaking of.

[RolandJP]

Race politics usually boils down to color doesnt it? The criteria of nation of origin isnt even a factor.

As I stated in another thread if an Asian is born and raised in Dublin that doesnt mean the populace at large will view him as Irish.

Skin tone is the prejudice. Hence the shock of some toward Michael Jackson's children. ( they look white or are seen as such) mentality

[Freakzeek]

though i like the discussion, what does any of this have to do with comics?

[Blade X]

Honestly, if you're arguing that because Cage dresses similarly to less than a dozen characters that he doesn't interact with, he should then dress up like literally thousands of other characters to look unique... Well, I'm not sure that me or anyone else can help you.

The last time I checked, every superhero costume is not ecactly the same. So if Cage did start wearing a superhero costume again, it most likely wouldn't look anything like the other costumes worn by the other Avengers.

[Blade X]

Race politics usually boils down to color doesnt it? The criteria of nation of origin isnt even a factor.

As I stated in another thread if an Asian is born and raised in Dublin that doesnt mean the populace at large will view him as Irish.

Skin tone is the prejudice. Hence the shock of some toward Michael Jackson's children. ( they look white or are seen as such) mentality

I agree with everything you said.

[G. Boney]

But at the same time, there are many dark skin latinos who just want to be associated with their culture. The problem that exist within the us that is seen by both black and white culture is that if you look afro, you are afro, even if you are not. There is this automatic inclusion that assumes that someone needs to be associated with the afro group just because of physical appearance, and that's not how it should be.

But even more so are the dark skin latinos. Because they have their own culture. The latin culture of whatever country they belong to. They should not be forced or need to be included in the american of african descent culture because essentially, they aren't. They are latin, and if they want to be seen and viewed as latin, they should be without ridicule by the white and black population.


The examples you give only work if one thinks black = african-american, which it of course doesn't. There are black people from many different countries.



Skin tone is the prejudice. Hence the shock of some toward Michael Jackson's children. ( they look white or are seen as such) mentality

Please. Few people believe those are his kids because the average mixed child doesn't look completely white...especially that third child who is supposed to have a black mother. Mike is their father...but not biologically.

[RolandJP]

The examples you give only work if one thinks black = african-american, which it of course doesn't. There are black people from many different countries.



Please. Few people believe those are his kids because the average mixed child doesn't look completely white...especially that third child who is supposed to have a black mother. Mike is their father...but not biologically.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/46329-johnwill.gif

Thanks for proving my point.

My niece thanks you too.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/100_8902.jpg

[G. Boney]

Heh. Not quite. If I'd said there are no mixed children who look white...

[Monty_Cristo]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/46329-johnwill.gif

Thanks for proving my point.

My niece thanks you too.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/100_8902.jpg

Tron Carter? :confused:

[pitbull in a skirt]

Please. Few people believe those are his kids because the average mixed child doesn't look completely white...especially that third child who is supposed to have a black mother. Mike is their father...but not biologically.

You mean was (rest in peace, MJ). I think the third child having a black mother isn't a shock -- she would just have to be very light skin. Think of Tisha Campbell, LisaRaye, Raven Symone, etc light complexion. I've seen/known mixed children who look like Michael Jackson's children.

Besides, I don't think they look completely white anyway.

I feel odd posting paparazzi pictures of kids, but just to point out a few examples.

Blanket

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt249/exist2live/misc/nhuy76xdxs.jpg

The oldest one, Prince

http://floacist.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/987678.jpg

[RolandJP]

Tron Carter? :confused:

That baby was not bought "Straight Cash"

:wink:

[Monty_Cristo]

i wonder if Patriot would work as Falcon's sidekick.

[babybro]

My great thread is back! LOL, but towards the question, I'm not sure, I kinda like him on the young avengers as a leader. He has that captain american spunk and his lines in the latest YA was great. Perhaps he could do both, just to take him out as a leader of the YA.

[GalactaSurfer]

i wonder if Patriot would work as Falcon's sidekick.

Patriot should totally be in the Cap book period. I'd like to see some follow up by Bru on the Truth story.

[Monty_Cristo]

My great thread is back! LOL, but towards the question, I'm not sure, I kinda like him on the young avengers as a leader. He has that captain american spunk and his lines in the latest YA was great. Perhaps he could do both, just to take him out as a leader of the YA.

on that note, i'd like to fill you in on the rest of my idea. i think the Young Avengers need legitimacy pretty bad. each character should have a mentor of some sort (doesn't necessarily have to be an Avenger). but they'd continue fighting as a team. the mentor stuff would be extracurricular. i don't think it's all that different from Captain America both leading the Avengers and also being a crimfighting duo with the Falcon, at one point. and when i say "mentoring" i'm not just talking about fighting techniques. maybe some of them have aspirations to lead or go into politics. Sam has been a community planner. he could pass along that knowledge, as well. Wonderman could giving acting lessons to Kate Bishop (just as an example).