Flight or no Flight?

[Shatagni]

Just want to gather people's opinions here.

Although I'm a fan of Post-crisis Wonder woman, recently I've being considering that maybe she works better as a ground-based brawler, especially after watching The animated movie and reminiscing about her days in the Linda Carter show.

Sometimes I feel flight makes things too easy for her. Like if she's surrounded by a bunch of enemies, all she has to do is fly away and then attack again. But then again, being flightless means fighting someone like Giganta would be a real pain.

I dunno, thoughts?

[loneangel74]

I like Diana with the power of flight! It is not necessarily a new idea for her in the comic book… they just used to call it “gliding on air currents” pre-crisis. I always felt it was a slap in the face for Diana since Donna could fly but she couldn’t. I have had her flying for over 20 years and I really cannot see her not be able to do so in the future. Besides, every character evolves. Why not Wonder Woman? Superman did not start off flying… only leaping tall buildings in a single bound. Considering Diana’s supernatural background, flying is more plausible for her than any other character.

Just a little angelic thinking… :wink:

Regards,

[Gail Simone]

Great, great question.

I actually am in a weird spot here, as I like both. The wind currents/invisible jet combination is incredibly powerful and evocative.

But it DOES leave her underpowered against other superheroes.

At this point, I don't think there's any going back. But if I were doing a WW movie for live action, I wouldn't immediately throw out the idea of going with the classic not-quite-full-flight powers.

She could fly in my WW animated drafts.

[Cayman]

No flight for me.

[Donna M.]

FLIGHT! "Gliding on air currents" is just bloody silly.

[suedenim]

But it DOES leave her underpowered against other superheroes.


This is a point I made in the "Invulnerability" topic, that sometimes it's kind of a shame that Wonder Woman is in a "shared universe" with Superman et al.

In many (and probably most) ways, it's a Good Thing, but there are drawbacks, and the implicit need to have her on a rough par with Superman turn some Wonder Woman shticks (like "bullets and bracelets" or the invisible jet) into not-entirely-necessary quirks.

[JKCarrier]

Among superheroes, flying is no big deal. The invisible plane is cooler, and uniquely hers, so I say stick with that. "Because Superman does it" is a dumb reason for anything. Should Diana have x-ray vision, too? :rolleyes:

[Kevenn]

FLIGHT!!!! :biggrin:

[Sijo]

I always thought it was cool that Diana had her own way to fly, instead of just going up on force of will ala Superman (I even remember an issue of Super Friends from the 70's -seriously, the comic book version was actually good- where an enemy with elemental powers dropped her from the sky by stopping the air currents!

Still, normal flight works too.

[Xeres]

Yeah I like the flight. I was never a fan of the wind currents - she's not a kite.

[scary harpy]

Flight.

Call it "gliding on air currents" if you wish but she should fly.

[ryerye17]

Flight

How is this EVEN a question

[West Mantooth]

Honestly, how is it even possible to tell the difference(flight -gliding) in a static medium like comics unless she it tells you so?

[Phil Jimenez]

I'm with Gail. As much as I love that she can fly, I also love the invisible jet. In the film, I'd actually prefer she didn't fly, and that she uses the invisible jet for long-distance transport.

In the comics, when she does fly, I wish people would remember how fast she can travel -- I think she was clocked at Mach 3 during Grant's early JLA run.

Weren't the Amazons' gliding powers pre-Crisis by-products of Amazon Training? Didn't they have to study and practice and channel their mental energies to glide on those currents?

[Superbeast]

I always thought she'd use the jet for long trips and her normal flight to get across town or something. I always had WW as a notch below Superman or the Flash in terms of speed and much lower than Superman in terms of endurance because she isn't constantly being powered by the sun. So I assumed flying all the way to China would tire her out and given she isn't completely invulnerable, the invisible jet gave her more defensive options.

[Black Atom]

I could go either way. I do like the idea of the flightless WW in the context of the Marston origin where the Amazons are all super-charged Olympiads (it's not like one could become so athletically able that they suddenly are able to fly).

[Wonder Watcher]

I haven't seen the animated film but I think Wonder Woman as a character works equally well without flight.

She spends much more time fighting on her feet than smashing through things, Superman style, anyway. She often brings the fight down to the earth and when she's not fighting, she stands. By which I mean she's hardly ever shown just hanging in the air that way Superman or Black Adam et al do.

I think Diana prefers having her feet on the ground and I believe with her origin and ties to Gaea that is correct. Even her classic pose is 'grounded' and has her planted there, feet shoulder width apart, hands on hips.

Having said all that I think it's too late to change anything now and having her fly is pretty cool too.

Maybe contact with Gaea even replenishes her somehow and flying extreme distances consumes energy. It would be an explanation (other than practicality) why she would use the jet for long distances - hundreds / thousands of miles.

[greatmetropolitan]

If you wanted to go Gaimanesque in your Gods, you could say that Wonder Woman, her powers being tied to the Gods, gets more powerful with more belief. Maybe she starts out with the invisible plane, but the more she goes out there and changes the world, the more people see this incredible woman and "believe" in her and what she can do, the stronger she gets, culminating in her flying one day when we need her most...

Ultimately, I'm in the "invisible jet is cool, but she'd be underpowered" camp. Without giving it too much though, I usually just assume that Wondy has always had been equal to superman in the strength/speed/flight/durability departments. The more I think though, it'd be cool to shake things up.

[troy2g1]

I don't see what the major issue is with Diana having both flight and the invisible plane.

What is the obsession with people wanting to remove powers from Wonder Woman!?

[Fake Shemp]

Flight, definitely. For one thing, she's always doing business all over the world (even moreso back in her ambassador days...oh, how I miss Ambassador!Diana), and it seems like her flying on her own would be more convenient than the plane. But more importantly, it just fits her power set. It seems like something that's all Greek godly, and, while I don't mean to just make it sound like "Well Superman has it, so why can't she?", it DOES make a lot more sense for her to have it than Supes (and speaking of which, Kryptonian heat vision is just idiotic. How does shooting lasers out of your eyes fit the whole "the man of tomorrow" theme? Bahh, never mind...Silver Age logic does not resemble our Earth logic. Although I've gotta admit, super-weaving and super-shooting-a-miniaturized-version-of-yourself-out-of-a-rainbow-out-of-your-hand are pretty badass).

If they do decide to scrap flight, though, I'd still (and don't hurt me for this) prefer that they didn't use the invisible plane. I know, I get that it's iconic and "hers" and whatever, but I just can't understand how Greek gods and Amazons equal invisible plane. I'd rather they use something like Hermes' sandals. Plus, it would be so hard to keep from looking cheesy or fake if DC finally decides to make a live action movie.

[Zembo]

Agreed, flight just makes sense from a practical standpoint. If you must, give her the plane until she has to crash it into something, then say that she was given the power to fly till it's repaired. She has an invisible flight-necklace or something.

[Leto]

What makes it awkward is that it's so inconsistent across WW's portrayal in different media.

I feel that WW works really well as a warrior, and if she can fly freely that makes flying sword fights a strange possibility. When she can fly freely every fight becomes rock'em sock'em robots like a lot of Superman's fights.

Justice League Unlimited had that problem a bit, with Wondy being Superman-light. I don't recall them doing a lot with the the lasso's powers, but that's for another thread.

I think gliding on air currents combined with superstength jumps and a transparent jet works well enough. The gliding gives her range but not enough that she can be buzzing around enemies.

[West Mantooth]

I don't see what the major issue is with Diana having both flight and the invisible plane.

What is the obsession with people wanting to remove powers from Wonder Woman!?

I think the invisible plane just rubs people the wrong way for so many reasons, imo. It's creation into the mythos is kind of obtuse(alien tech, bruce) and further points to her in relation to her fellow heroes. Bats has a plane because he lacks power. Supes, GL, and etc don't because they can fly.

[JKCarrier]

What is the obsession with people wanting to remove powers from Wonder Woman!?

Because in a few cases, they've added powers that undercut what makes Wonder Woman cool and unique. Flight powers make the invisible plane redundant. It would be like Spider-Man having the organic web-shooters, and still wearing the mechanical ones too. When you have two mechanisms that do exactly the same thing, it makes sense to ditch the one that's more commonplace and keep the one that's unusual and interesting.

[RealWonderman]

Flight, but active, muscular flight (call it purposefully and actively gliding on air currents) I think Diana and Kal fly differently, but to the same effect. Diana's flight is active rather than passive, where Kal's flight is a passive thing...more of a gravity defying feat. Diana's flight is muscular, it's active and I'd bet there was some Amazon Training involved at some point. Don't ask me to get all scientific, cause I don't think I could quite explain what I think about it...but passive flight for Kal and active flight for Diana is the short version.

[nightforce]

I don't see what the major issue is with Diana having both flight and the invisible plane.

What is the obsession with people wanting to remove powers from Wonder Woman!?

That is the problem with some Wonder Woman fans that grates me to no end. They say "Why does she have to have flight? Because Superman has them??" So they in essence already equate her with Superman before the Wonder Woman fans can.

They tend to forget that Superman did NOT fly when he was first created, he gained those powers later. So why is he allowed to gain more powers as time goes on and not Wonder Woman?

Wonder Woman was created to let little girls know that whatever a boy can do so can a girl. But you have some with that trouble. It is a comic book for Gods Sake! Not reality let the character fly!! Let her have her plane too to carry injured heroes or civilians.

I love the flight. She deserves it. No matter what is done with Wonder Woman she will always be compared to either Batman, Superman or Captain Marvel.

It irks me when some want her to work THAT much harder to prove herself while the others get those gifts "handed" to them on a Silver Platter because they are men.

[MinaRho1]

What is the obsession with people wanting to remove powers from Wonder Woman!?

I think when people write wonder woman, they get embarrassed about the subject matter. Something about having Wonder Woman as a top tier powerhouse makes people squirm so they gloss over that while claiming "credibility". Everything about her is so big and flashy and bold-- combined with the bright costume, it just makes people scoff as a knee-jerk reaction.

I see the same thing in fanart. People want to draw Wonder Woman, but they pass it off as a joke because they're embarrassed. Like it or not there are lots of people who don't like Wonder Woman and say it's tokenism to have her be as powerful as she is-- us trying to lump her with Superman.

When theygo about removing Wondy's powers it just looks to me like they're trying too hard to NOT look like they're trying too hard.

Granted the ONE power that I don't like Diana having is "Sisterhood with Fire." It doesn't even mean anything, its hard to utilize. If its not serving a purpose, it's just in the way.

[Black Atom]

I think when people write wonder woman, they get embarrassed about the subject matter. Something about having Wonder Woman as a top tier powerhouse makes people squirm so they gloss over that while claiming "credibility". Everything about her is so big and flashy and bold-- combined with the bright costume, it just makes people scoff as a knee-jerk reaction.

I see the same thing in fanart. People want to draw Wonder Woman, but they pass it off as a joke because they're embarrassed. Like it or not there are lots of people who don't like Wonder Woman and say it's tokenism to have her be as powerful as she is-- us trying to lump her with Superman.

When theygo about removing Wondy's powers it just looks to me like they're trying too hard to NOT look like they're trying too hard.

Granted the ONE power that I don't like Diana having is "Sisterhood with Fire." It doesn't even mean anything, its hard to utilize. If its not serving a purpose, it's just in the way.

I think it's sorta the opposite, really.

Over the years, it seems that various creators have heaped more powers on WW in an (in my opinion, misguided) attempt to make her as relevant as Superman and Batman. They gave her flight, which made the invisible plane concept redundant and Superman-like durability, which made the bracelets redundant. Now you've got folks insisting she can outfight Batman in pure hand-to-hand fighting skill and is the best warrior in the JLA, and downplaying the peaceful elements of her origin. So really, you've got various creators sloughing off everything that makes WW unique in what seems like a really self-conscious effort to prove she's as good as the other guys. for one am less concerned about how WW stacks up with Superman power-wise than I am how she stands in her own right, which is why I wouldn't mind if she were powered down if it meant the return of her more unique elements.

[Vic Vega]

Well in the original stories I guess she needed a plane to cart injured Steve Trevor back to the States.

I think it makes sense that this version of Diana has both flight and an Invisible Jet.

After all Diana, as an ambassador/diplomat of sorts is a lot more likey to have passengers in tow than say, Superman is. Her carrying dignitaries from place to place would be uncomfortable for them.

Moreso over long distances.

'Tho I'm sure there are a whole bunch that are into that kind of thing.

[Leto]

I say give Wonder Woman fire breath and let her propel herself backwards through the air like a rocket ship!

WHOOOOSH!

[gargoylekitty]

I think it's sorta the opposite, really.

Over the years, it seems that various creators have heaped more powers on WW in an (in my opinion, misguided) attempt to make her as relevant as Superman and Batman.
Sure, you could say that but it would be completely ignoring that Superman has been given a boost over the years as well. Superman started off only strong enough to lift cars, only faster than trains, and able to jump high. No heat vision, no x-ray vision, no flying. Though over the years Superman's power level, along with other heroes, has increased. In that I don't see why Wonder Woman's shouldn't as well.


They gave her flight, which made the invisible plane concept redundant and Superman-like durability, which made the bracelets redundant.
The plane can be, and has been, used for passengers as Vic Vega, and others, mentioned. As for the bracers, you're ignoring that bullets can still harm her.


Now you've got folks insisting she can outfight Batman in pure hand-to-hand fighting skill and is the best warrior in the JLA, and downplaying the peaceful elements of her origin.
She's from a society of warriors and has probably been training since before Batman was born. I really don't see what's so damaging about the idea that she'd be able to beat him.

[Leto]

Whenever Wonder Woman vs Batman is brought up, I'm always reminded of the scene from the Hiketeia where Batman swoops into the Themysciran embassy.

They talk for a bit; things don't work out, Batman throws some batarangs which Diana deflects. Batman throws a punch, Diana catches it. Diana throws a punch, Batman is launched across the road into a street lamp.

Diana could rip Bruce in half at her current power level. I say stick with it. If DC wants to ground her in the future they're welcome to.

[Black Atom]

Sure, you could say that but it would be completely ignoring that Superman has been given a boost over the years as well. Superman started off only strong enough to lift cars, only faster than trains, and able to jump high. No heat vision, no x-ray vision, no flying. Though over the years Superman's power level, along with other heroes, has increased. In that I don't see why Wonder Woman's shouldn't as well.

It's not that WW's not allowed to get a power up. It's just that the power-ups have made her more like other generic bricks at the expense of her
own unique powers/abilities. She has the same basic powerset as all the Kryptonians, the Marvels and Martian Manhunter.


The plane can be, and has been, used for passengers as Vic Vega, and others, mentioned. As for the bracers, you're ignoring that bullets can still harm her.

I'm not ignoring it. I acknowledge that those things are still around in some capacity, but it seems like they're almost grudgingly fit in now, where as they were once staples of the character's mythology.


She's from a society of warriors and has probably been training since before Batman was born. I really don't see what's so damaging about the idea that she'd be able to beat him.

It's not that it's "damaging". It's that it's a trait ascribed to WW to make her stand out but accomplishes, in my opinion, the opposite. The DCU and even the JLA is full of warriors and martial artists (the Justice League cartoon underscored, for me, how similar WW and Hawkgirl seemingly were, as I struggled to find meaningful differences between the two hot-blooded female exiles of warrior cultures) What's unique about WW is her peace message, which seems more important than if she can beat up Batman.

[mgs]

no flight. it's a stupid idea.

great leaping and kind of a 'floating' ability, sure. Check! but actual power pf flight?!?? Stupid. Bleah.

[lariatofhestia]

What's the point in gliding on wind currents? When she loses one mid battle what she going to do? Land and do nothing?


It's either she flies or she does not. But I love the flight. How come Martian Manhunter,Supergirl,Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel,GL and many others fly and no one goes, oh they are rip off of Superman?

It's plain silly. I don't care for the jet really but it can be made to be cool ,especially if she had to go out of space etc. I mean if Batman can have toys why not Diana? But really is flight such a weird concept after she can now survive nuclear blasts?:rolleyes:

I think most younger fans would be confounded that they would consider stripping Diana of her powers of flight. Step backwards,I would say.

[suedenim]

What's the point in gliding on wind currents? When she loses one mid battle what she going to do? Land and do nothing?

It's either she flies or she does not. But I love the flight. How come Martian Manhunter,Supergirl,Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel,GL and many others fly and no one goes, oh they are rip off of Superman?

It's plain silly. I don't care for the jet really but it can be made to be cool ,especially if she had to go out of space etc. I mean if Batman can have toys why not Diana? But really is flight such a weird concept after she can now survive nuclear blasts?:rolleyes:

I think most younger fans would be confounded that they would consider stripping Diana of her powers of flight. Step backwards,I would say.

Yeah, I think it's, at best, an academic point now, except perhaps when it comes to a new movie.

I always hated that "gliding on wind currents" business whenever I saw it (and I'm blanking, but wasn't there some other prominent or semi-prominent character circa 1980-85 who had that?) If you treat it seriously, it should be really limiting, and in annoying ways, not interesting ones. If you don't, you might as well just say "She can fly."

[Jeff O.]

The year KINGDOM COME came out, I gave the series as a Christmas present to a friend of mine who, when he read comics, usually read Marvel Comics.

He primarily knew Wonder Woman through the classic Lynda Carter show and from Mego dolls and the SUPERFRIENDS cartoon. The next time I saw him, he told me he had read KINGDOM COME. He said he got into the story quite a lot and especially was interested in Batman's relationship with Ibn. But then he exclaimed, "But one thing -- Wonder Woman can fly?!? Since when?"

Of all of KINGDOM COME, Wonder Woman being able to fly was the concept he found most jarring. I proceeded to tell him about how I first read a story where she glided on air currents in the seventies, and that after CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, it was full-blown flight for her. It was hard for him to accept since it was so foreign to his concept of Wonder Woman.

I guess it got me to wonder that since Wonder Woman can fly, were the eagle wings she wore for the final battle in KC purely ceremonial? I mean, I suppose the wings gave her additional armored protection, but did they aid her power of flight in any way?


__________________

[nerites]

Flight flight flight!

[JKCarrier]

They tend to forget that Superman did NOT fly when he was first created, he gained those powers later. So why is he allowed to gain more powers as time goes on and not Wonder Woman?

Well, if your argument is that more powers = better character, why stop at flight? Give her teleportation powers too. And since Batman gets to have both a plane AND a car, it's clearly sexist not to give her a Wonder-Mobile. Add wings growing out of her back, since we certainly can't have a second-stringer like Hawkman having powers that she doesn't. And I'm sure you'll agree, Wonder Woman will never be as respected as Wolverine until she gets some of those claws that extend out from her hands. Gads, it's a miracle the poor girl has lasted as long as she has, with the minuscule number of powers she's been stuck with.

[MinaRho1]

Sure, you could say that but it would be completely ignoring that Superman has been given a boost over the years as well. Superman started off only strong enough to lift cars, only faster than trains, and able to jump high. No heat vision, no x-ray vision, no flying. Though over the years Superman's power level, along with other heroes, has increased. In that I don't see why Wonder Woman's shouldn't as well.


The plane can be, and has been, used for passengers as Vic Vega, and others, mentioned. As for the bracers, you're ignoring that bullets can still harm her.


Let's not forget one of the reasons Superman's powers were amped up. Captain Marvel.

The publishing rights to Captain Marvel did not yet belong to DC (was Superman even a DC property or did DC not exist in that point in time?)

Anyway, it was a long running war, and a good chunk of time Captain Marvel outsold Superman and Batman combined. The writer's of superman stole ideas shamelessly from Captain Marvel. At one point they had exactly the same powers. Then someone had the bright idea to give Superman heat vision, cold breath, and angel farts to differentiate the two.

Every superhero gets ramped up from time to time for varying reasons. People tend to go with it or ignore it. But with Diana, we're still getting our spangled panties in a twist for a minor change that happened decades ago. Come on, people. Decades. I still think that Diana gets depowered when she's in something mainstream (cough, movie, cough) so everyday Joe won't scoff at her.

[dupersuper]

I'm for flight. It's bad enough she has to be vulnerable to bullets for the "bullets and bracelets" to mean anything. Even though she's in their league in terms of strength and speed, it's hard to consider her equal with Superman, Supergirl, Power Girl, Capt. Marvel, Martian Manhunter, Valor/Mon-el etc. in terms of power when she can be taken down by a mugger. Flying definitely helps put her back on that godly level in terms of awe and intimidation.

[hobomystical]

She spends much more time fighting on her feet than smashing through things, Superman style, anyway. She often brings the fight down to the earth and when she's not fighting, she stands. By which I mean she's hardly ever shown just hanging in the air that way Superman or Black Adam et al do.

I think Diana prefers having her feet on the ground and I believe with her origin and ties to Gaea that is correct. Even her classic pose is 'grounded' and has her planted there, feet shoulder width apart, hands on hips.

Having said all that I think it's too late to change anything now and having her fly is pretty cool too.

Maybe contact with Gaea even replenishes her somehow and flying extreme distances consumes energy. It would be an explanation (other than practicality) why she would use the jet for long distances - hundreds / thousands of miles.

when perez did it, she couldn't stay out of the sky. he had her flying with the birds all the time.

i say flight, and i say with the potential of hermes himself. but she should still have her jet, too.

[hobomystical]

He primarily knew Wonder Woman through the classic Lynda Carter show and from Mego dolls and the SUPERFRIENDS cartoon. The next time I saw him, he told me he had read KINGDOM COME. He said he got into the story quite a lot and especially was interested in Batman's relationship with Ibn. But then he exclaimed, "But one thing -- Wonder Woman can fly?!? Since when?"

Of all of KINGDOM COME, Wonder Woman being able to fly was the concept he found most jarring. I proceeded to tell him about how I first read a story where she glided on air currents in the seventies, and that after CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, it was full-blown flight for her. It was hard for him to accept since it was so foreign to his concept of Wonder Woman.

i blame dc comics for this. there is absolutely no reason for people to have an outdated version of her that is more than 20 years old.

[lariatofhestia]

I think I kinda notice a trend here. It's seems the folks who grew up on Superfriends and Lynda Carter that mostly want Diana to stay as she was. I mean I knew Lynda and the Superfriends but I was also introduced to Perez and Kingdom Come and I thought damn time.


Powered by the Gods,yes makes sense she should fly. Why the heck would the gods give you the ability to catch air currents?

I mean if they want to give her flight she flies properly or has something like the sandal of Hermes in her arrow ,much like how Perseus was given the power of flight. Proper flight .Not namby pamby floating.


I think the next generation expects and wants Diana to fly .

[lariatofhestia]

I think I kinda notice a trend here. It's seems the folks who grew up on Superfriends and Lynda Carter that mostly want Diana to stay as she was. I mean I knew Lynda and the Superfriends but I was also introduced to Perez and Kingdom Come and I thought damn time.


Powered by the Gods,yes makes sense she should fly. Why the heck would the gods give you the ability to catch air currents?

I mean if they want to give her flight she flies properly or has something like the sandal of Hermes in her arrow ,much like how Perseus was given the power of flight. Proper flight .Not namby pamby floating.


I think the next generation expects and wants Diana to fly .


Sorry I meant armor,not arrow.:redface:

[Mars Getsoian]

I'm for flight. It's bad enough she has to be vulnerable to bullets for the "bullets and bracelets" to mean anything. Even though she's in their league in terms of strength ang speed, it's hard to consider her an equal with Superman, Supergirl, Power Girl, Capt. Marvel, Martian Manhunter, Valor/Mon-el etc. in terms of power when she can be taken down by a mugger.

She's vulnerable to bullets, but I wouldn't go so far as to say she can be taken down by a mugger. There's a fair amount of evidence that you could empty a Sig into her to about the same level of fatality as a broken arm. Back in WML's run, Mayfly shot her through the shoulder with a "special meta-killing bullet" and it wasn't even an issue a dozen panels later - and this is WML, who played down Diana's power level significantly. A bullet wound will hurt, and distract her, and depending where it ends up, could have serious long-term consequences if she doesn't get it dealt with, and if I were her I wouldn't chance taking one to the face if I could help it, but she's not as far behind the true invulnerable types as "bullets and bracelets" makes her sound, even before you get into the fact that, because of bullets & bracelets, she's de facto invulnerable to ranged attacks anyway.

Oh, and flight, duh. I don't get the "uniqueness" argument. It's not like there aren't even more non-fliers in the DCU.