What if Diana were stripped of her Olympian powers?

[brettc1]

This is not altogether impossible in the current scenario.

What if Diana lost her powers given by the Olympians, and had to replace them another way. A sort of modern version of Amazon Training.

After all, she would still have her link to Gaea through the nature of her rebirth. Could she learn to draw on the power of the Earth herself, in a way that is possible for any human given the right attitude and enought training? Maybe Diana's stronger link could simply enable her to learn to do this faster?

[Sijo]

I would actually love to see this, if it were part of a "Diana rejects her gods" storyline (which needs to happen. Let's face it, those pricks don't deserve her faith.)

[Deus ex Chris]

I'd love it. As a feminist icon and symbol of self-empowerment, I think it's important that she actually be self-empowered. Let's see her attain godlike power through her own means rather than having it handed to her.

[hobomystical]

I'd love it. As a feminist icon and symbol of self-empowerment, I think it's important that she actually be self-empowered. Let's see her attain godlike power through her own means rather than having it handed to her.

we have to be careful with this way of thinking, though. it could be seen as a woman having to have to work for what she gets while men simply have things handed to them.

but anyway, i don't see why it can't be a combination of both things. diana could have excelled in amazon training from the get go and as a reward the gods increased those abilities (or gave diana the increased potential) so that she could be an adequate foil for ares. all it would mean is that she did it on her own first and then got blessed by the gods for proving herself.

my way of doing it, though, would be having her blessed at birth and then have athena and artemis devise amazon training so that diana could eventually use it to control her vast powers. because of the nature of amazon training, the rest of the amazons, and others that fully subscribe to it including worship of the greek gods, can also benefit from its virtues. this would also serve to make the rest of the amazons perfect assistants for diana's mission.

[Shatagni]

She was stripped of her powers once.

It happened in the "God war" arc except it was because Cronus took over Olympus and banished Zeus.

[WorstThingUS]

Again?

http://www.amazonarchives.com/Images/178.gif

[scandalsavage]

Again?

http://www.amazonarchives.com/Images/178.gif

I totally agree. It would be back to "Diana Peel"

The powers are intrinsic to what makes her Wonder Woman.

[Deus ex Chris]

I totally agree. It would be back to "Diana Peel"

The powers are intrinsic to what makes her Wonder Woman.

I think you're missing the point of the thread. The original poster isn't suggesting that she be made powerless again.

[BBeeryan]

Storm would totally own her eve worst this time because she doesn't have her powers to save her... but then again, they didn't save her last time.

[americanwonder]

... but anyway, i don't see why it can't be a combination of both things. diana could have excelled in amazon training from the get go and as a reward the gods increased those abilities (or gave diana the increased potential) so that she could be an adequate foil for ares. all it would mean is that she did it on her own first and then got blessed by the gods for proving herself.

my way of doing it, though, would be having her blessed at birth and then have athena and artemis devise amazon training so that diana could eventually use it to control her vast powers. because of the nature of amazon training, the rest of the amazons, and others that fully subscribe to it including worship of the greek gods, can also benefit from its virtues. this would also serve to make the rest of the amazons perfect assistants for diana's mission.

This is a great post - in large part, because it's how I see things as well. :wink:

Although, I wouldn't include direct worhip of the great gods, just an adherance to the truths of their teachings/principles. Just a personal preference. And, can we please get a story or two that shows the up-side of the gods/goddesses? They aren't "bad" all the time, are they?

Still, Brett's idea is interesting, too - I can see it working.

[brettc1]

I think you're missing the point of the thread. The original poster isn't suggesting that she be made powerless again.

Indeed I am not.

The idea I am trying to convey is that in days of old, Diana's powers were ones that any human could develop given time, knowledge, and discipline. Amazons were like Jedi, except anybody could develop powers.

What I am proposing is a scenario where, because of her actions with Zeus, Diana's powers granted her at birth were removed. After all, they are blessings of her gods - and as has been pointed out, they have been stripped from her before during Cronus coup.

BUT - Diana still retains her link with Gaea, the Earth Mother. In the past she has called on the Mother to heal her, even spoken with her during the Shattered God saga. If Diana were able to learn how to channel the energies of Mother Earth, be a conduit for them, she could conceivable have almost all the powers she has now. Strength, speed, even invulnerability. It might mean that she flies on air currents again, but that is a matter of interpretation - if by her link with the Earth she were able to manipulate those currents in her immediate area, something like Storm, she could fly pretty damn fast! Her link with the beasts and birds would absolutely be conceivable. She would retain all her Amazon skills. Heck, if she were strongly linked to Gaea like all other living things, we could even see the return of the 'mental radio' :wink:

As for her wisdom - instead of having the Wisdom of Athen, maybe she could go back to being 'as wise as Athena'. And as a champion of the Goddess, her understanding that all life is linked would help to her preserve her loving and compassionate heart.

And the best part - this is knowledge that Diana can actually pass on. No, I don't want to to see an army of people at her power level, but others could start to use her abilities at substantially reduced levels. Diana will always be the foremost champion of Amazons and Mother Earth, instead of it being because she is blessed among us, it would be because she is BEST among us.:smile:

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

Interesting, if irrelevent note: The listing for this thread on the WW Message Board listing on Comic Block Forums reads: "What If Wonder Woman Were Stripped..."

Which is one way of getting new posters, I guess...:biggrin:

[Tyr]

I totally agree. It would be back to "Diana Peel"

The powers are intrinsic to what makes her Wonder Woman.

Not to mention it would likely set off another wave of feminist protest, which I would back because they were right about it the first time.


Storm would totally own her eve worst this time because she doesn't have her powers to save her... but then again, they didn't save her last time.

Well maybe the fans will vote for Wonder Woman to win the fight this time, which is the real reason she lost to Storm the first time.


Interesting, if irrelevent note: The listing for this thread on the WW Message Board listing on Comic Block Forums reads: "What If Wonder Woman Were Stripped..."

Which is one way of getting new posters, I guess...:biggrin:

Hell I'd be down with it if its Ragdoll doing the stripping, cause then we Ragdoll wearing her stuff. :tongue:

[brettc1]

Interesting, if irrelevent note: The listing for this thread on the WW Message Board listing on Comic Block Forums reads: "What If Wonder Woman Were Stripped..."

Which is one way of getting new posters, I guess...:biggrin:

Hmmm - might have to post a new thread..."What if Catman were stripped of his - um - well who really cares, as long as he's stripped"

:biggrin:

[ScottyQuick]

I'd love it. As a feminist icon and symbol of self-empowerment, I think it's important that she actually be self-empowered. Let's see her attain godlike power through her own means rather than having it handed to her.

Why not? Clark had his powers handed to him.

[Tyr]

Hmmm - might have to post a new thread..."What if Catman were stripped of his - um - well who really cares, as long as he's stripped"

:biggrin:

Catman gets stripped on a regular basis, so there would be no "what if" about it, I'm still waiting for the issue where every secret six member is naked and in the same room.

[Leto]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/TylerXKJ/wwvariant.jpg

Diana was created by Hippolyta and given life by the Greek Gods. At birth she was endowed with special powers and gifts from them.

Dealing with mortality is something superheroes deal with at least once in their careers. Diana has already gone through this. The subtext about DC stripping the most iconic female superhero of her powers did not go over well.

Although Diana using secret agent kung fu in a glam dress is amusing.

Let's stick with what continuity she has before trying to reinvent the wheel.

[Falconen]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/TylerXKJ/wwvariant.jpg

Diana was created by Hippolyta and given life by the Greek Gods. At birth she was endowed with special powers and gifts from them.

Dealing with mortality is something superheroes deal with at least once in their careers. Diana has already gone through this. The subtext about DC stripping the most iconic female superhero of her powers did not go over well.

Although Diana using secret agent kung fu in a glam dress is amusing.

Let's stick with what continuity she has before trying to reinvent the wheel.

A little off topic, but I really like that outfit. Clean, simple lines, and it would be something I could easily see Diana wearing.

[scandalsavage]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/TylerXKJ/wwvariant.jpg

Diana was created by Hippolyta and given life by the Greek Gods. At birth she was endowed with special powers and gifts from them.

Dealing with mortality is something superheroes deal with at least once in their careers. Diana has already gone through this. The subtext about DC stripping the most iconic female superhero of her powers did not go over well.

Although Diana using secret agent kung fu in a glam dress is amusing.

Let's stick with what continuity she has before trying to reinvent the wheel.

This is really quite lovely. Are you the artist?

[Leto]

Nope, got it from an imageboard.

I've been trying to track down the artist, no such luck.

[Deus ex Chris]

Why not? Clark had his powers handed to him.

Superman isn't a feminist icon or a symbol of self-empowerment.

[Fake Shemp]

Superman isn't a feminist icon or a symbol of self-empowerment.

And yet somehow, in spite of the fact that he had his powers handed to him, Superman is still recognized as the most iconic, idealistic hero out there. Just sayin'. Also, since when has WW been a symbol of self-empowerment? She's always been a "privilege hero," so to speak. Even back in the Marston era, Amazons were said to naturally be a lot stronger than humans, and she just-so-happened to be their princess and likewise the most powerful of them. IMO, the real symbols of self-empowerment are meant to be the street levelers like Batman, Oracle, Huntress, Nightwing, etc., and I don't really think Diana can be categorized with them.

[Adrian Tullberg]

Once upon a time, there was a woman of incredible majesty and power. Blessed by the Gods, she used her abilities in a never-ending quest to bring peace and harmony to all.

The Father and King of all Gods desired this woman, and told her so. She rejected his offers; as much as a command to wear a thong, oil herself down, and 'shake it' to Sir Mix-A-Lot's greatest opus can be considered an offer.

The Father God was angry, and vengeful in his anger. He stripped her of the blessings that the Gods under him had granted her, and cast her down to Earth, to live a mortal life.

The woman stood up, and knew her abilities would prevent much suffering, and swore to regain what was rightfully hers.

The man called Steel forged for her The Sword of Glass; a weapon with a blade comprised of a 'sub-molecular force field lattice', which could cut through any man, beast or thing.

The strange visitor from another world handed her a device taken from one of his greatest enemies; a belt that would protect her from any harm.

The dark knight gifted her a secret fortress in the city of Boston, filled with treasures, devices and resources to aid her quest.

The woman called Zatanna granted her a talisman that allowed her to walk between realms; where none dared venture but she must tread.

The woman who had been struck down took all her gifts with thanks, knowing that these would only help the start of her quest ...

[Deus ex Chris]

And yet somehow, in spite of the fact that he had his powers handed to him, Superman is still recognized as the most iconic, idealistic hero out there. Just sayin'. Also, since when has WW been a symbol of self-empowerment? She's always been a "privilege hero," so to speak. Even back in the Marston era, Amazons were said to naturally be a lot stronger than humans, and she just-so-happened to be their princess and likewise the most powerful of them. IMO, the real symbols of self-empowerment are meant to be the street levelers like Batman, Oracle, Huntress, Nightwing, etc., and I don't really think Diana can be categorized with them.

Wonder Woman's abilities came from training and meditation (or "Amazon concentration"). She was always about self-empowerment. Yeah, she was a princess, but she was also the best of her people.

[Kyle Sing]

I have no desire to see Diana stripped of her powers again. This doesn't happen to the other heroes of the DCU and it shouldn't happen to Diana.

There are about a thousand interesting story lines that can be written for Diana at this very moment from Gail, Greg, Phil, George, etc. and all of them involve a fully powered Diana in my humble opinion.

Peace,

[batGRRRl4ever]

I would actually love to see this, if it were part of a "Diana rejects her gods" storyline (which needs to happen. Let's face it, those pricks don't deserve her faith.)

It would be an interesting evolution for her wouldn't it?

[SJNeal]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/TylerXKJ/wwvariant.jpg



Now THIS would make a great Donna Troy costume!!!! :biggrin:

[brettc1]

And yet somehow, in spite of the fact that he had his powers handed to him, Superman is still recognized as the most iconic, idealistic hero out there. Just sayin'. Also, since when has WW been a symbol of self-empowerment? She's always been a "privilege hero," so to speak. Even back in the Marston era, Amazons were said to naturally be a lot stronger than humans, and she just-so-happened to be their princess and likewise the most powerful of them. IMO, the real symbols of self-empowerment are meant to be the street levelers like Batman, Oracle, Huntress, Nightwing, etc., and I don't really think Diana can be categorized with them.

Amazons, as I recall, were stronger than normal humans because they had the benefit of Amazons Training, which allows a human to develop their mental and physical potential to its highest level. [hobomystical could probably tell you more about it than I] For example, in the Marston era any Amazons could perform bullets and bracelets - Diana was just he best at it.

Whereas Clark has his powers handed to him by genetics and a yellow sun, Diana had to work all her life to develop to the level she achieved at the time she became WW. The fact that Clark uses his incredible powers for good rather than selfish reasons is a tribute to his unfailingly noble character, but it does not change the fact that he did not work to achieve them in the same way Diana did before COIE.

[brettc1]

I have no desire to see Diana stripped of her powers again. This doesn't happen to the other heroes of the DCU and it shouldn't happen to Diana.

There are about a thousand interesting story lines that can be written for Diana at this very moment from Gail, Greg, Phil, George, etc. and all of them involve a fully powered Diana in my humble opinion.

Peace,


Again, maybe I should have titles this thread What if Diana had her Olympian powers replaced. I dont want to see Diana depowered either - I was just speculating about if she found a way to be more self-empowered, to use the term others have mentioned here :smile:

[AaronJ]

I cannot imagine what the point of adding complications would be, when the payoff would be ... non-existent.

Basically, this is asking "What if Wonder Woman were a totally different character?"

Well, I'm not down with that.

[Deus ex Chris]

Basically, this is asking "What if Wonder Woman were a totally different character?"

No, he's asking what would happen if the original source of Wonder Woman's abilities was restored.

It seems like lots of people are just reacting without actually reading the thread.

[AaronJ]

No, he's asking what would happen if the original source of Wonder Woman's abilities was restored.

It seems like lots of people are just reacting without actually reading the thread.

But THAT Diana is not THIS Diana.

THAT Diana is dead. THIS Diana is a different character. So, it is, in fact, asking what if she were an entirely different character.

[brettc1]

But THAT Diana is not THIS Diana.

THAT Diana is dead. THIS Diana is a different character. So, it is, in fact, asking what if she were an entirely different character.

On the other hand, this Diana did not have an invisible plane for ten years, but now she does. So did she become a different character when that part of her original story was restored? Did she revert to being another charcter from before COIE? I think we would all say no.

Changing the source of Diana's powers does not change Diana herself. Except in as much it reflects how she may be developing as a character, as all characters do. There seem to be quite a few folks who like the idea of Diana representing the actualization of the ultimate human potential.

[Deus ex Chris]

But THAT Diana is not THIS Diana.

THAT Diana is dead. THIS Diana is a different character. So, it is, in fact, asking what if she were an entirely different character.

No, it isn't. She isn't defined by the source of her powers. Each time she's been stripped of her powers, she's remained Diana. Making her abilities entirely her own again wouldn't change who she is or what she's about.

[korok]

This has happened once, maybe twice, in the current continuity... one was a confusing mess, and the other was just boring. (The boring one may have just been a memory loss... it was so boring I don't remember much about it.) I vote no for a power loss. There's no reason for it... it would just be a sales gimmick, and I'd prefer that most of Diana's stories not be sales gimmicks.

[AaronJ]

On the other hand, this Diana did not have an invisible plane for ten years, but now she does. So did she become a different character when that part of her original story was restored? Did she revert to being another charcter from before COIE? I think we would all say no.

I didn't have the Director's Cut of Watchmen on BD until a couple weeks ago. Now I do. I'm still the same person.

But if suddenly, tomorrow, I woke up in Sweden, was 6'3" tall, had blonde hair, and a Prince, then yeah ... I'd be a different person.


Changing the source of Diana's powers does not change Diana herself. Except in as much it reflects how she may be developing as a character, as all characters do. There seem to be quite a few folks who like the idea of Diana representing the actualization of the ultimate human potential.

They may like that. That's fine. But that's not Diana.

And I don't see how further complicating her story adds anything.

Superman -- The son of a dying planet, rocketed to Earth, and brought up by loving parents in Kansas, Clark Kent/Kal-El gained great powers under the yellow sun and became SUPERMAN!

Batman -- The son of Gotham's First Family, he watched his parents gunned down in an alley as a child. Determined to keep this horror from happening to any others, he perfected himself, and became The Dark Knight, BATMAN!

Wonder Woman -- Princess Diana of Themyscira, beloved child of the Queen of the Amazons, she was formed from clay, gifted with life and with great power by her gods, and came to Patriarch's World where she battles Evil and Oppression as WONDER WOMAN!


I'm still not seeing the advantage of changing any of those. Hell, if you want a character who is the pinnacle of human achievement, you've already got one in Batman.

[MinaRho1]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/TylerXKJ/wwvariant.jpg

Diana was created by Hippolyta and given life by the Greek Gods. At birth she was endowed with special powers and gifts from them.

Dealing with mortality is something superheroes deal with at least once in their careers. Diana has already gone through this. The subtext about DC stripping the most iconic female superhero of her powers did not go over well.

Although Diana using secret agent kung fu in a glam dress is amusing.

Let's stick with what continuity she has before trying to reinvent the wheel.

I agree with Falconen and ScandalSavage. This is lovely. I had an idea a while ago to draw something like this, but this design has my ideas soundly beaten. At the time I thought it would be great if Diana cast away her role as princess, AND the secret identity and made Diana Prince her real identity-- no hiding, no alter egos.

Every superhero who has powers goes through a time when they're redefined. Look at Rogue, Ms. Marvel, Donna Troy, Jean Grey, Vixen, etc. Its just a fact that comicbook readers have to live with. Our attention spans will be tossed around and strained by constant reboots.

Still some reboots are better than others. I would prefer if they were not done as STUNTS but as an honest attempt to explain and streamline a character's powers.

My own vision for Diana's power redefinition goes as this:

Gaia doesn't technically count as an Olympian goddess, right?

Since Diana is made from the earth, she gets her power from the earth. She still heals and renews herself by the cycles of the earth--- that's simple enough. Keep it. Someone mentioned in the "Flight or No Flight" thread that since she gets her power from the earth that flight pretty much goes against that logic. I think Diana is simply beautiful when she flies, but I am inclined to agree. I am not against her making epic leaps and bounds--- like the Hulk but with much more grace and precision. That would be cool and not contradict her existing powers.

It also works well with her environmentalist message that Greg Rucka emphasized. She has a stake in the well-being of the planet as almost a daughter of Mother Earth, and as a hero.

As for speed and the bullets and bracelets thing-- I'm more flexible on that.

The Sisterhood with Fire power makes no sense. That goes.
Whatever powers she does or does not have my conclusion is that she overthrows the Gods and maybe lets a few of them live-- Athena, Artemis, Gaia and a couple others that I like. They live out the rest of eternity more as spirits-- not gods exerting their will and power over anyone else.

[Mars Getsoian]

I'm still not seeing the advantage of changing any of those. Hell, if you want a character who is the pinnacle of human achievement, you've already got one in Batman.

This just says to me that Dinah needs to be a hell of a lot more prominent. The boys get Superman, the power fantasy of the ideal man, something better than human, pure and beautiful and perfect and godlike, and Batman, the power fantasy of self-improvement, something that any man could potentially be, flawed and determined and heroic. And they're best friends! Each respects and loves the other! They fit like hand and glove! :biggrin: They're sort of a matched set at DC, and thus are typically considered together and are able to balance each other with this kind of thing.

Diana has always been the Superman archetype - even in the Golden Age, when Marston upheld the pretense that it was all just "amazon training" that any female could benefit from, the fantasy was of flight (excuse me, "air current gliding") and steel-bending strength and car-racing speed, something well beyond human, a godlike paragon of beauty and wonder. But who's the female Batman archetype? Well, there isn't one, so people try to put that on Diana too.

If Black Canary, who has, just like the trinity types, been around since the beginning, been JLA and JSA, who just like Batman, has been a detective and an undercover agent and a gadget user and a pinnacle martial artist, if Dinah had had Batman's prominence all this time, if she and Diana had a World's Finest or Wonder Woman/Black Canary history of their own (instead of a rarely referenced, almost entirely informed friendship), we wouldn't get this argument about how Diana needs to be depowered to properly represent empowerment. (We wouldn't get the "she's too perfect, where are her flaws" nonsense either, at least not to the degree we do now.) Because people who felt that way would just read Black Canary instead, the way people who feel that way about Superman just read about Batman instead.

Probably much too late now, of course, I'm just spitballing here. But wouldn't it be neat?

[MinaRho1]

Diana has always been the Superman archetype - even in the Golden Age, when Marston upheld the pretense that it was all just "amazon training" that any female could benefit from, the fantasy was of flight (excuse me, "air current gliding") and steel-bending strength and car-racing speed, something well beyond human, a godlike paragon of beauty and wonder. But who's the female Batman archetype? Well, there isn't one, so people try to put that on Diana too.



I agree it WOULD be neat. I agree with pretty much everything.
I'll throw this out there too: When people talk about Diana's physical abilities Superman's name always comes up. When they talk about her skills, Batman always comes up. Doesn't that strike anyone else as kind of distasteful? So everything she does has to relate to one of the two biggest guys in the DC universe? I think its effed up.

[West Mantooth]

I agree it WOULD be neat. I agree with pretty much everything.
I'll throw this out there too: When people talk about Diana's physical abilities Superman's name always comes up. When they talk about her skills, Batman always comes up. Doesn't that strike anyone else as kind of distasteful? So everything she does has to relate to one of the two biggest guys in the DC universe? I think its effed up.

Blame it on DC.

Imo, the Trinity concept(not the series) wasn't very helpful to WW. Someone had to end up the middle sibling. Between the overachieving big brother and the gets everything he wants little brother.

[MinaRho1]

Blame it on DC.

Imo, the Trinity concept(not the series) wasn't very helpful to WW. Someone had to end up the middle sibling. Between the overachieving big brother and the gets everything he wants little brother.

Ah Middle Child syndrome. That actually makes the most sense out of anything else people have told me.

[AaronJ]

I think, and this is not a criticism of anyone here (I promise!), that WW fans themselves are the most guilty of creating these WW v Supes v Bats dichotomies.

There's this sort of "inferiority complex" that seems rampant in Wonder Woman fandom, and it drives me nuts. "OH MY GOD! Superman did so-and-so! And they would NEVER let Diana do that!"

That kind of thing.

I think the key to any of this is just appreciating WW stories for what they are, good or bad, and not trying to judge everything against Superman (or Batman).

The best writers tend to see the complex elements that make these characters who they are, and investigate them, without constant comparisons.

[greatmetropolitan]

I think, and this is not a criticism of anyone here (I promise!), that WW fans themselves are the most guilty of creating these WW v Supes v Bats dichotomies.

There's this sort of "inferiority complex" that seems rampant in Wonder Woman fandom, and it drives me nuts. "OH MY GOD! Superman did so-and-so! And they would NEVER let Diana do that!"

That kind of thing.

I think the key to any of this is just appreciating WW stories for what they are, good or bad, and not trying to judge everything against Superman (or Batman).

The best writers tend to see the complex elements that make these characters who they are, and investigate them, without constant comparisons.

Just want to say I completely agree with this.

[West Mantooth]

I struggle not to do it but I still slip up. If Joker is to Batman and Lex is to Supes then.....yada yada.

[Mars Getsoian]

Well, aside from the fact that Marston explicitly created Wonder Woman in response to Superman, it's a pretty normal human behavior to compare things to other things. Particularly similar things. Particularly when the regular interaction between those things is a major component of what those things even are.

[West Mantooth]

Yeah, but I think many, including myself, sometimes use Bats and Supes as a barometer to make decisions in the first place instead of what WW as character needs. Like a change to the character isn't good unless it meets some unmeasureable standard established in the other Trinity members.

[Mars Getsoian]

Diana doesn't exist in a vacuum. She exists as part of a universe full of other superheroes, and as part of a larger-than-comics cultural phenomenon in which she is a single brick in a much larger edifice alongside Batman and Spider-Man and Superman and the Hulk and innumerable other characters. To consider her in a vacuum is therefore meaningless.

I mean, what are we talking about in this thread? Ostensibly, how can Diana best represent empowerment, right? The fact that her powers are god-given is presented as somehow detrimental to her symbolic impact, and a solution to this perceived problem is presented, while others dispute that such a problem even exists.

This conversation makes no sense whatsoever if you try to limit the conversation to Only Wonder Woman, because her symbolic impact is entirely intertwined with the symbolic impact of other superheroes. It is all one system, in which we have, culturally, chosen certain characters to fill certain roles, and which roles get filled and how is completely dependent on the whole pool of available characters. Trying to divorce a discussion of how Diana can best represent whatever it is you want her to represent from any mention of what other superheroes represent or how that affects her is like trying to make plans to dam a river without considering anything beyond a mile downstream and twenty feet up it.

[West Mantooth]

Good post, but misses the main point.

Most people use only Bats and Supes as the barometer. Not the whole DCU and it. Making decisions on how she fits in the DCU is great. Making her character worthwhile if Bats and Supes are the establishing mark isn't.


When was the last time someone said WW needs a Sinestro type character or a Reverse Flash? I personally don't understand the importance of WW being a JL founding member other than the fact Bats and Supes were, but some people care immensely.

[Leto]

Well, aside from the fact that Marston explicitly created Wonder Woman in response to Superman, it's a pretty normal human behavior to compare things to other things.

Batman was also made to capitalize on the success of Superman. Every classic superhero was.


When was the last time someone said WW needs a Sinestro type character or a Reverse Flash? I personally don't understand the importance of WW being a JL founding member other than the fact Bats and Supes were, but some people care immensely.

WW has Cheetah as her archnemesis. Ares, Giganta, Circe, Silver Swan, Doctors Cyber, Poison, & Psycho, fill out the rest of her rogues gallery not counting a variety of mythological monsters.

[Mars Getsoian]

Most people use only Bats and Supes as the barometer. Not the whole DCU and it. Making decisions on how she fits in the DCU is great. Making her character worthwhile if Bats and Supes are the establishing mark isn't.


When was the last time someone said WW needs a Sinestro type character or a Reverse Flash? I personally don't understand the importance of WW being a JL founding member other than the fact Bats and Supes were, but some people care immensely.

Except that Batman and Superman are the DCU's iconic superheroes, the ones who are comparable to Wonder Woman. Flash and Green Lantern don't stand for things in the wider American/Western zeitgeist the way Wonder Woman does. Batman and Superman do.

And she has a Sinestro type, it's Cheetah. Much better comparison than Lex or Joker. That, I'll give you, is definitely a problem of perception and a place where people need to adjust their thinking away from the World's Finest comparisons. But Cheetah doesn't actually get Lex or Joker treatment either, really, so that's a bit academic anyway.

[hobomystical]

Batman was also made to capitalize on the success of Superman. Every classic superhero was.

wonder woman wasn't created to capitalize on the success of superman. wonder woman was specifically created by marston to be the female counterpoint to superman. he created her as a female who could stand on equal ground with him. more specifically, he created her to be a hero young girls and boys would like and equally aspire to be like. he created her to balance the scales in a world dominated by men.

[brettc1]

Superman -- The son of a dying planet, rocketed to Earth, and brought up by loving parents in Kansas, Clark Kent/Kal-El gained great powers under the yellow sun and became SUPERMAN!

Superman - excellent example :smile:

Superman's origin story has changed several times in the past three decades, from Byrne's reboot to Waid's reimagining to the current origin. And fans keep buying the book. His Kryptonian origin is now much closer to the original storyline than it was immediately after John Byrne's Man of Steel. But even with all those changes and re-changes, whether he was an embroyo on Krypton or a toddler, whether the Bid Red S is an invention of Martha Kent or a Kryptonian glyph, he remains Superman. Just as Wonder Woman would remain Wonder Woman.

The only difference in what I am proposing in this WW scenario is that her powers be returned to a closer version of her origin story by means of an organic process withing the book, rather than just a sudden radical alterartion.

[hobomystical]

Superman -- The son of a dying planet, rocketed to Earth, and brought up by loving parents in Kansas, Clark Kent/Kal-El gained great powers under the yellow sun and became SUPERMAN!

Superman - excellent example :smile:

Superman's origin story has changed several times in the past three decades, from Byrne's reboot to Waid's reimagining to the current origin. And fans keep buying the book. His Kryptonian origin is now much closer to the original storyline than it was immediately after John Byrne's Man of Steel. But even with all those changes and re-changes, whether he was an embroyo on Krypton or a toddler, whether the Bid Red S is an invention of Martha Kent or a Kryptonian glyph, he remains Superman. Just as Wonder Woman would remain Wonder Woman.

The only difference in what I am proposing in this WW scenario is that her powers be returned to a closer version of her origin story by means of an organic process withing the book, rather than just a sudden radical alterartion.

i like the gods' blessings. but i want to see more of an emphasis on amazon training, too, for the amazons and for donna especially. i also want to see diana referring to it and invoking it more. i don't think she should be where she is now without it. her gifts, given before or after birth (doesn't matter to me, though i prefer before) should be the result of mastering amazon training first and foremost. the training should have its natural limits even though it places amazons far above average humans. but diana's gifts should take amazon training to the far extreme, placing her far above amazons.

[brettc1]

i like the gods' blessings. but i want to see more of an emphasis on amazon training, too, for the amazons and for donna especially. i also want to see diana referring to it and invoking it more. i don't think she should be where she is now without it. her gifts, given before or after birth (doesn't matter to me, though i prefer before) should be the result of mastering amazon training first and foremost. the training should have its natural limits even though it places amazons far above average humans. but diana's gifts should take amazon training to the far extreme, placing her far above amazons.

On a tangent, I have to say that giving a toddler the strength of a god is just ludicrous. I am speaking of the father of an 18 month old girl here, who is fond of having all his limbs functioning LOL

[hobomystical]

On a tangent, I have to say that giving a toddler the strength of a god is just ludicrous. I am speaking of the father of an 18 month old girl here, who is fond of having all his limbs functioning LOL

ludicrous, and yet there's superman. :wink:

i agree. if they did it before her birth, i would expect it to not really start to show until puberty. i like the thought of a gradual development of powers from puberty to young adulthood.

[AaronJ]

Superman -- The son of a dying planet, rocketed to Earth, and brought up by loving parents in Kansas, Clark Kent/Kal-El gained great powers under the yellow sun and became SUPERMAN!

Superman - excellent example :smile:

Superman's origin story has changed several times in the past three decades, from Byrne's reboot to Waid's reimagining to the current origin. And fans keep buying the book. His Kryptonian origin is now much closer to the original storyline than it was immediately after John Byrne's Man of Steel. But even with all those changes and re-changes, whether he was an embroyo on Krypton or a toddler, whether the Bid Red S is an invention of Martha Kent or a Kryptonian glyph, he remains Superman. Just as Wonder Woman would remain Wonder Woman.

The only difference in what I am proposing in this WW scenario is that her powers be returned to a closer version of her origin story by means of an organic process withing the book, rather than just a sudden radical alterartion.

No. You're suggesting what is a huge alteration.

The changes with Superman have been superficial. Who honestly cares whether the 'S' is Martha's idea or his family crest? It doesn't matter, one way or the other.

An equivalent idea with Superman would be that it's not really that he's Kryptonian, and the yellow sun makes him super-powered. He actually went to Nanda Parabat as a young man, found Total Enlightenment, and became the greatest of all men, able to achieve practically anything, because he possesses total inner peace and contentment.

I think people would find that sort of idea a bit out there, and undermining of who Superman is. Likewise, the idea that Diana was blessed by the gods with life and powers is fairly key to the character's identity.

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/TylerXKJ/wwvariant.jpg



One problem with that outfit is that it's yellow and white. Diana's one of the few female characters to wear red and blue, primary colors. But if we add red and blue to that outfit, she turns into Cathy Lee Crosby.

The other problem: It's a tad... ABBAesque...

[MinaRho1]

One problem with that outfit is that it's yellow and white. Diana's one of the few female characters to wear red and blue, primary colors. But if we add red and blue to that outfit, she turns into Cathy Lee Crosby.

The other problem: It's a tad... ABBAesque...

It would look good red

[brettc1]

No. You're suggesting what is a huge alteration.

The changes with Superman have been superficial. Who honestly cares whether the 'S' is Martha's idea or his family crest? It doesn't matter, one way or the other.

An equivalent idea with Superman would be that it's not really that he's Kryptonian, and the yellow sun makes him super-powered. He actually went to Nanda Parabat as a young man, found Total Enlightenment, and became the greatest of all men, able to achieve practically anything, because he possesses total inner peace and contentment.

I think people would find that sort of idea a bit out there, and undermining of who Superman is. Likewise, the idea that Diana was blessed by the gods with life and powers is fairly key to the character's identity.

Interesting final thought, except that she would still be blessed with life [by Gaea]. Which is more important than the powers.

Your illustration about Superman is also interesting, since that is a parallel to where Diana is now! Post COIE the orgin of her powers WAS changed, but opposite to what you are saying here. Instead of her being about self-empowerment, her abilities of strenghth, speed, empathy come from the outside.

It actually dismepowers her a bit, because [until the last few months] she was more in service to the often fickle Gods. Before that she first and foremost served an ideal. It does make for some good drama when the gods desires and Amazon ideals clash, but sometimes, as was the case in Rucka's run, I just found myself wishing Diana would tell the Olympians to just go and %$#@ themselves :tongue:

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I have no desire to see Diana stripped of her powers again. This doesn't happen to the other heroes of the DCU and it shouldn't happen to Diana.

There are about a thousand interesting story lines that can be written for Diana at this very moment from Gail, Greg, Phil, George, etc. and all of them involve a fully powered Diana in my humble opinion.

Peace,

You would be amazed at the number of people who´d LOVE to see Diana stripped of her powers and reduced to "Captain America in a tiara".

[Tiberious]

Interesting final thought, except that she would still be blessed with life [by Gaea]. Which is more important than the powers.

Your illustration about Superman is also interesting, since that is a parallel to where Diana is now! Post COIE the orgin of her powers WAS changed, but opposite to what you are saying here. Instead of her being about self-empowerment, her abilities of strenghth, speed, empathy come from the outside.

It actually dismepowers her a bit, because [until the last few months] she was more in service to the often fickle Gods. Before that she first and foremost served an ideal. It does make for some good drama when the gods desires and Amazon ideals clash, but sometimes, as was the case in Rucka's run, I just found myself wishing Diana would tell the Olympians to just go and %$#@ themselves :tongue:

I would actually love to see some scenes where Diana is either training or references it. Ex: Diana had taken Tom to work out and his response was "I can't do that! I'm only human!" Amazon training should make a return.

[brettc1]

I would actually love to see some scenes where Diana is either training or references it. Ex: Diana had taken Tom to work out and his response was "I can't do that! I'm only human!" Amazon training should make a return.

I am drooling over the thought of Diana teaching Tom how to fight like an Amazon. :tongue:

And just so I know - is this sonofdiana, or son-of-diana?

[Tiberious]

This is "sonofdiana". Thank you for letting everyone know on the DC Boards that son-of-diana was not me. I really appreciated it!

--Ryan