OGNs

[paperbackreader]

Steven,

I can't remember if it was you who said this, or Mark Evanier a long time ago, and Google isn't helping me. I think the phrase was "Comic's dirty secret."

The idea was that at least a portion of the economics of comics buying relied on some of them, some day, being worth something more than you paid for them. Certainly not all of them, and most likely not a lot, but the "residual value" of a collectible was much higher than the residual value of a book.

One of the reasons that OGNs will struggle to make sense is that once you remove this economic support, you need to price them significantly lower than their counterparts, and you wind up becoming unprofitable.

Do you feel this argument holds any water?

[Steven Grant]

Do you feel this argument holds any water?

No.

Or, rather, it doesn't need to hold water.

The main reason comics even need the secondary "collectible value" is that for the most part little emphasis is placed on immediate value of content. Even today, the vast majority of comics are rather puerile throwaway items that can be read and pretty much totally appreciated in a few minutes time. Pure "entertainment." Not that I have any problem with entertainment, but if I have, say, $12 to spend, I can go buy three or four comics, go to a movie or, living in southern Nevada as I do, go to a casino. A movie, regardless of quality, gives me 90-200 minutes of distraction, if distraction value is all we're considering. I can nurse nickel slots for a couple hours worth of distraction even if I lose (and I find the best attitude toward gambling is to view the money you're putting in as entertainment money, so you don't become too concerned with winning) and if I win I can either quit happy or nurse the entertainment value sometimes substantially longer.

I don't think it has taken me more than 15 minutes to read four comics in over 30 years.

If comics require the secondary value, it's because there's little appreciable immediate - which is to say entertainment or distraction - value in them for the price.

If your idea of an original graphic novel is simply a long standard comic book, sure, then you'll run into problems.

But nothing limits the graphic novel to that, and it's the perfect place to add considerably more entertainment/distraction value to the package (not that I've anything against edification value or commentary value or any of that, but we're talking comics basics here). The comics world has generally been very, very bad at that, but that's not much of an excuse to tolerate it.

There's a "back issue" trade in books too, both hard and soft cover. In fact, there are two: those who want those books for their content and those who want their books for perceived collectible value. This doesn't mean new books factor that into their prices at all. New books do or don't become collectibles on the strength of their popularity at time of sale and subsequently, not because they're books. Strangely enough, book publishers rarely take secondary market value into consideration because a) their objective is not to support a secondary market but to sell as many copies of their books in primary markets as possible and b) they don't make any money off the secondary market, since that's generally a subset of their primary market and not a superset, so the secondary market rarely drives sales in the primary market, meaning the former is of only negligible interest to the latter.

So the "collectible market" value argument, if accepted, is only another way of saying the comics business has its collective head up its collective ass... when it doesn't need to be there.

If someone feels graphic novels have not enough intrinsic value to be considered on their own merits, the solution seems simple enough: solicit and publish better graphic novels with more intrinsic value.

- Grant

[comicsmetal]

No.

Or, rather, it doesn't need to hold water.

The main reason comics even need the secondary "collectible value" is that for the most part little emphasis is placed on immediate value of content. Even today, the vast majority of comics are rather puerile throwaway items that can be read and pretty much totally appreciated in a few minutes time. Pure "entertainment." Not that I have any problem with entertainment, but if I have, say, $12 to spend, I can go buy three or four comics, go to a movie or, living in southern Nevada as I do, go to a casino. A movie, regardless of quality, gives me 90-200 minutes of distraction, if distraction value is all we're considering. I can nurse nickel slots for a couple hours worth of distraction even if I lose (and I find the best attitude toward gambling is to view the money you're putting in as entertainment money, so you don't become too concerned with winning) and if I win I can either quit happy or nurse the entertainment value sometimes substantially longer.

I don't think it has taken me more than 15 minutes to read four comics in over 30 years.

If comics require the secondary value, it's because there's little appreciable immediate - which is to say entertainment or distraction - value in them for the price.

If your idea of an original graphic novel is simply a long standard comic book, sure, then you'll run into problems.

But nothing limits the graphic novel to that, and it's the perfect place to add considerably more entertainment/distraction value to the package (not that I've anything against edification value or commentary value or any of that, but we're talking comics basics here). The comics world has generally been very, very bad at that, but that's not much of an excuse to tolerate it.

There's a "back issue" trade in books too, both hard and soft cover. In fact, there are two: those who want those books for their content and those who want their books for perceived collectible value. This doesn't mean new books factor that into their prices at all. New books do or don't become collectibles on the strength of their popularity at time of sale and subsequently, not because they're books. Strangely enough, book publishers rarely take secondary market value into consideration because a) their objective is not to support a secondary market but to sell as many copies of their books in primary markets as possible and b) they don't make any money off the secondary market, since that's generally a subset of their primary market and not a superset, so the secondary market rarely drives sales in the primary market, meaning the former is of only negligible interest to the latter.

So the "collectible market" value argument, if accepted, is only another way of saying the comics business has its collective head up its collective ass... when it doesn't need to be there.

If someone feels graphic novels have not enough intrinsic value to be considered on their own merits, the solution seems simple enough: solicit and publish better graphic novels with more intrinsic value.

- Grant

Are you for or against trade and OGN.To me I love Trade and OGN because they allow me to read with them with out having to wait six or seven mounth(especially about trade).

You sound like trade are not doing well but it seems like more new readers are reading trade.

[bartl]

I can't remember if it was you who said this, or Mark Evanier a long time ago, and Google isn't helping me. I think the phrase was "Comic's dirty secret."
Definitely not Mark. Could have been Grant. Could have been me, for that matter. It sounds like the kind of thing I would have written back in the early-mid 90's.

[badMike]

I can nurse nickel slots for a couple hours worth of distraction even if I loseDuring my last recent trip to Vegas, I noticed that the casino that I normally stay and play at had removed all of the nickel slots. All they had this time were the buck, quarter, and penny machines. I usually did pretty good on the nickel machines, so I was a little annoyed they were gone. And I wonder if nickel machines vanishing is a general Vegas trend or just this particular casino.

If someone feels graphic novels have not enough intrinsic value to be considered on their own merits, the solution seems simple enough: solicit and publish better graphic novels with more intrinsic value.Speaking of nickels and things that annoy me, how come there are never any graphic novels or trades on the bargain shelves at Borders or BN or any chain store?

[Steven Grant]

Are you for or against trade and OGN.To me I love Trade and OGN because they allow me to read with them with out having to wait six or seven mounth(especially about trade).

No books of any kind are doing especially well at the moment, but in general trades are doing okay. I have no problem with either format but I'd prefer OGNs. The ones that are any good, anyway.

- Grant

[Steven Grant]

Definitely not Mark. Could have been Grant. Could have been me, for that matter. It sounds like the kind of thing I would have written back in the early-mid 90's.

Pretty sure I never made that argument. Sounds like something an apologist for pamphlets would make. Interestingly, most graphic novels are less expensive than the same number of pages in comics form, but that's mostly because production costs are lower for one book than, say, six. (They only go to press once instead of six times, only one cover needed instead of six, etc.) Pass those savings on to the consumer!

- Grant

[Steven Grant]

During my last recent trip to Vegas, I noticed that the casino that I normally stay and play at had removed all of the nickel slots. All they had this time were the buck, quarter, and penny machines. I usually did pretty good on the nickel machines, so I was a little annoyed they were gone. And I wonder if nickel machines vanishing is a general Vegas trend or just this particular casino.

With the advent of video slots, penny slots are nickel slots. You just set the amount you want to bet yourself, most machines allow a variety of denominations. It's not like any machine accepts coins anymore anyway.

Funny true story from five or six years back: Jerry "The Beaver" Mathers is walking through Caesar's Palace looking mystified. A security guard asks if he can help.

"Where are the penny slots?" says Mather.

The guard replies, "Circus Circus."

Speaking of nickels and things that annoy me, how come there are never any graphic novels or trades on the bargain shelves at Borders or BN or any chain store?

Generally books that end up are bargain shelves are those with either overlarge print runs that have been remaindered by the publisher or that the store has been unable to sell yet for some reason can't return. (The book market, unlike the direct comics market, is largely returnable.) I have occasionally seen comics books on the bargain shelves at both major chains, but you can assume graphic novels by and large either don't have excessive print runs, sell well enough to avoid the bargain bin fate, or can be returned to the distributor for credit.

- Grant

[paperbackreader]

So the "collectible market" value argument, if accepted, is only another way of saying the comics business has its collective head up its collective ass... when it doesn't need to be there.


I wouldn't put it that way, I'd call it monetizing the best way it knows how. I remember in grad school, learning that movie theatres made no money on the tickets, and only barely made them on popcorn. They made most of their money on the float generated by the fact that they were an all cash business. Once it moved away from being all cash and into plastic, prices lept up considerably.

I have little doubt that the comics companies market towards collectors (not speculators or investors, but collectors) at least as much as readers. Of course there's a gigantic overlap, but I think a lot of buying patterns hold to form.

The comparison to the book market isn't that great, as the secondary market for books is non-material. The secondary market for comics is significantly stronger, and indeed was most of the business for a long time.

Baseball cards right now are being propped up by the lottery ticket mentality (maybe this pack will have one of Babe Ruth's tooths in it!) And the comics market is at least partially propped up by multiple covers, chase covers, limited editions, etc. I think the race to a better value book is harder than just monetizing the collectors more.

[badMike]

With the advent of video slots, penny slots are nickel slots. You just set the amount you want to bet yourself, most machines allow a variety of denominations.First off, I just have to say I loathe the video slots. But even for the old-school-reel penny slots with changing the denomination, it's not the same as the straight-up nickel machines. I'm not exactly sure how to explain why though, but the pennies trip you up with the gazillion lines you have to play in order to hit anything.

Honestly, I'd rather play limit hold 'em poker all day long, but that's not always an option.

you can assume graphic novels by and large either don't have excessive print runs, sell well enough to avoid the bargain bin fate, or can be returned to the distributor for credit.Damn.

[dancj]

Speaking of nickels and things that annoy me, how come there are never any graphic novels or trades on the bargain shelves at Borders or BN or any chain store?
Around 10-25 years ago there were floods of graphic novels in the discount bookshops. Mostly licensed stuff (Star Wars, Terminator, X-Files etc). I haven't seen any in years now. The last thing I found was Ethel and Ernest by Raymond Briggs several years ago.

(oh, but I do see the occasional Manga book, but they'll have loads of copies of volume 5 and 6 out of a run of 18 volumes so it's not much use)

[Charles RB]

Around 10-25 years ago there were floods of graphic novels in the discount bookshops. Mostly licensed stuff (Star Wars, Terminator, X-Files etc). I haven't seen any in years now. The last thing I found was Ethel and Ernest by Raymond Briggs several years ago.


I keep finding trades in bookstores, but yeah, it's mainly manga, licenses, or superheroes. 2000 AD trades also have quite a presence.

[NatGertler]

First off, realize that many of the books you see on the bargain piles these days are not remainders, but rather books manufactured specifically for those bargain piles (and lots of the ones at Barnes & Nobel are B&N exclusives - they've had their own editions of Marvel Masterworks, manga collections, a nice big book of Ultimate Spidey.

Graphic novels and TPBs certainly do end up being remaindered. However, the direct market-friendly companies often prefer to sell them through the direct market, where they tend to show up not as "bargain pile" but as sale items, or even just retailers selling at retail but willing to stock a slower-moving item. (Some publishers also have bargain tables at conventions, of course, and some do big mail-order sales, like Top Shelf's current $3 GN sale (http://www.topshelfcomix.com/catalog.php?section=specialdeals).)

But beyond that, yes, GNs and collections do show up at the remainder racks. Currently at some B&N stores and on their website they have the Stephen King Dark Tower hardcovers, $24.95 list, for $6.98 each for volume 1 (http://AAUGH.com/bn.htm?9781615531318) and volume 2 (http://AAUGH.com/bn.htm?9781615564750). Similarly priced are volume 1 (http://AAUGH.com/bn.htm?9781615531363) and volume 2 (http://AAUGH.com/bn.htm?9781615531356) of the Orson Scott Card Red Prohet adaptations. They also have a scattering of manga at this point... but note that they generally end up with the books that have stronger book-world hooks than direct-market hooks.

[NatGertler]

And to follow up on this, it looks like Marvel has been remaindering some more-comics-mainstream material now as well, judging by these hardcovers that are available thrugh Barnes & Noble online for $6.98 apiece (and free shipping at $25):

Ultimate Iron Man v. 1 (http://AAUGH.com/bn.htm?9781615599318) - list $19.99
Spider-Man: One More Day (http://AAUGH.com/bn.htm?9781615599264) - list $24.99
New Avengers v. 6 (http://AAUGH.com/bn.htm?9781615599233) - list $19.99
Marvel Zombies: The Covers (http://AAUGH.com/bn.htm?9781615599219) - list $19.99
Silver Surfer: Requiem (http://AAUGH.com/bn.htm?9781615599257) - list $19.99
Wolverine: Evolution Black and White (http://AAUGH.com/bn.htm?9781615599325) - list $19.99
Supreme Power v. 1 (http://AAUGH.com/bn.htm?9781615599301) and v. 2 (http://AAUGH.com/bn.htm?9781615599301) - these are actually $7.98 apiece, but the list is $29.99