When will Reed Richards get what is coming to him ?

[CMBMOOL]

When it comes to feelings it often feels that Reed Richards doesn't have any. I mean when he does finally shows them, it either too late and everyone around him is hurt badly.

I mean when ahve we ever sen Reed reflect over his recent choices that he helped played a part in and shaped the Marvel Universe , Civil War World War Hulk and The Secret Invasion ?

When will we sort of see someone asked him over his decisions and how it affected himself and his family ?

I mean is he truly too smart of a man to understand basic emotions ?

What do you all think of this ?

[coconutphone]

I mean when ahve we ever sen Reed reflect over his recent choices that he helped played a part in and shaped the Marvel Universe , Civil War World War Hulk and The Secret Invasion ?
?

It's called "Dark Reign: Fantastic Four". This was the entire premise. It has also spilled over into the new direction for the main FF book (same writer).

[4sake]

Never :mad: :frown:

[CMBMOOL]

It's called "Dark Reign: Fantastic Four". This was the entire premise. It has also spilled over into the new direction for the main FF book (same writer).

Yeah, but that was for the Civil War alone, and it still didn't solve anything, but lead into Hickman's run on FF. :frown:

[coconutphone]

It wasn't really JUST Civil War he was talking about all his big recent decisions and obvious what led to WWH weighs on his mind.

[CMBMOOL]

It wasn't really JUST Civil War he was talking about all his big recent decisions and obvious what led to WWH weighs on his mind.


I really didn't see that within the mini. I mean maybe he did mention his other mistakes briefly, but it was mostly him finding a way to alter the Civil War and have the outcome turn out differently.

[Shellhead]

When it comes to feelings it often feels that Reed Richards doesn't have any. I mean when he does finally shows them, it either too late and everyone around him is hurt badly.

I mean when ahve we ever sen Reed reflect over his recent choices that he helped played a part in and shaped the Marvel Universe , Civil War World War Hulk and The Secret Invasion ?

When will we sort of see someone asked him over his decisions and how it affected himself and his family ?

I mean is he truly too smart of a man to understand basic emotions ?

What do you all think of this ?

These questions are pretty meaningless. Reed was written badly out of character because the story required it. To pretend otherwise is useless, because then you are left trying to reconcile two very different characters, Reed Richards and Civil War Reed Richards.

[ExodusCloak]

I really didn't see that within the mini. I mean maybe he did mention his other mistakes briefly, but it was mostly him finding a way to alter the Civil War and have the outcome turn out differently.

What happened at the end of the mini? I read the first 3 issues, got the impression they're trying to pass off that Reeds failings are down to the interference of the rest of the illuminati and dropped the mini afterwards cause that seemed like a complete crap.

[Iron Maiden]

These questions are pretty meaningless. Reed was written badly out of character because the story required it. To pretend otherwise is useless, because then you are left trying to reconcile two very different characters, Reed Richards and Civil War Reed Richards.

Bingo. I will have to look to see if I can find it but I could swear that in one of his interviews before CW started, Millar said he thought Reed was an ***hole. I always found his supposed hype for the FF suspect too. You have to remember, Millar is one of those that follow the school of writers from across the pond that really think the concept of heroes as a quaint American tradition, then proceed to write them as jerks.

[Mark_S]

It's called "Dark Reign: Fantastic Four". This was the entire premise. It has also spilled over into the new direction for the main FF book (same writer).

Yea, but it was a premise that never really did much but set up the current run on the FF. Nothing was resolved, nothing explained and Reed came off as not so much caring about what happened but that he might have been wrong. Personal guilt has not been part of his make up since cw.


Mark_S

[CyberCoyote]

Bingo. I will have to look to see if I can find it but I could swear that in one of his interviews before CW started, Millar said he thought Reed was an ***hole. I always found his supposed hype for the FF suspect too. You have to remember, Millar is one of those that follow the school of writers from across the pond that really think the concept of heroes as a quaint American tradition, then proceed to write them as jerks.

Not just an a-hole, but the biggest one in Marvel Comics if I remember right (and I get my wife's birthday wrong STILL after 13 years.. so that's suspect) I always thought that was rather odd, myself.. the switcheroo on his take on Reed.

Reed's not the only one to suffer in the CW/SI stuff, but since the FF are more alienated than some of the others there's probably more people that have read those versions of Reed and company than have read the regular FF representations (Millar's Reed in the FF was not as big an A-Hole as he was in CW)

[Sighphi]

Stark was the figurehead of the thing and he gets all the blame.
Not even when Pym was Pym and not a skrull was he getting any crap either.

[XPac]

Bingo. I will have to look to see if I can find it but I could swear that in one of his interviews before CW started, Millar said he thought Reed was an ***hole. I always found his supposed hype for the FF suspect too. You have to remember, Millar is one of those that follow the school of writers from across the pond that really think the concept of heroes as a quaint American tradition, then proceed to write them as jerks.

Reed is a guy that talked his girlfriend and her teenage brother into flying an experimental rocket through cosmic radiation with him. And that was day one.

I can buy that he's a bit of an ***hole.

[Mechano]

smart people don't have to pay the price for their mistakes... because they don't make any. civil war, wwh, secret invasion...all part of reed's plan.

[XPac]

smart people don't have to pay the price for their mistakes... because they don't make any. civil war, wwh, secret invasion...all part of reed's plan.

That was sort of the moral of the story for McDuffies FF book.

Reed didn't actually make any mistakes, and the ends did apparently justify the means. I wasn't a fan of the message myself... but it does go a long ways in terms of getting Reed off the hook.

[Mechano]

That was sort of the moral of the story for McDuffies FF book.

Reed didn't actually make any mistakes, and the ends did apparently justify the means. I wasn't a fan of the message myself... but it does go a long ways in terms of getting Reed off the hook.

i actually had the whole mcduffie run... i bought it along with some other ff books on ebay. i tried reading it, but it just did not click with me. plus, i didn't really care for the art. i like paul p., just not on ff.

[Drdmx]

These questions are pretty meaningless. Reed was written badly out of character because the story required it. To pretend otherwise is useless, because then you are left trying to reconcile two very different characters, Reed Richards and Civil War Reed Richards.

i havent been an avid buyer of FF, not will I be in the future... so admittedly I'm not keen on "well written Reed vs badly written Reed". However, I'm not sure I buy that just because a new writer takes him on and happens to "write him better" doesnt mean that some of his actions in the past shouldnt be reconciled.

An example would be the Hulk. I personally didnt care for Bruce Jones run all that much. But when PAD came in, he at least dealt with the characters during that run in some form. I would hope that any new writers to the FF might take on that challenge, rather than use the copout of "oh he was just written badly during those stories..."

[CMBMOOL]

One tihng I wonder is why doesn't any of the Fantastic four talk to Reed about Civil War, I mean even Ben should try to reach out to him, since Reed had a hand in killing one of their friends and betraying others, including the Hulk, who is almost like Ben in terms of power. :frown:

[Expletive Deleted]

I actually wouldn't mind it if the FF would stop dealing with Civil War. McDuffie did at least two storylines on it. Dark Reign: FF was partially about Reed and his mistakes. The current "Solve Everything" arc is at least tangentially related. Even if you're not getting what you want out of those storylines, I don't see how you could say it's not being dealt with. Ad nauseum.

Seriously, what exactly would "get[ting] what he has coming to him" entail? Should Marvel devote a six issue arc to Reed sobbing, rending his garments, getting beaten up by a resurrected Bill Foster, and breaking the fourth wall to beg for your forgiveness?

[XPac]

I actually wouldn't mind it if the FF would stop dealing with Civil War and its fallout. McDuffie did at least two storylines on it. Dark Reign: FF was partially about Reed and his mistakes. The current "Solve Everything" arc is at least tangentially related. Even if you're not getting what you want out of those storylines, I don't see how you could say it's not being dealt with.

Seriously, what exactly would "get[ting] what he has coming to him" entail? Should Marvel devote a six issue arc to Reed sobbing, rending his garments, getting beaten up by a resurrected Bill Foster, and breaking the fourth wall to beg for your forgiveness?

For me, I'd like to see him actually bothering to clean up the messes he left.

He made Clor. If Clor is a danger and running out there lose, go out and get him. And beyond that an apology to Thor would be nice.

He made the prison. If Blastar overruns it, don't lock the door and toss away the key. Get in there and help free the prisoners that Reed himself was stupid enough to help put in there in the first place. I know the Initiative took care of that, but FF should have at least helped.

It's not just about begging for forgiveness. It's not enough for him to just shrug and acknowledge that Clor is a mistake... he helped make the mess, he should roll up his sleeves and help clean the mess up.

[Drdmx]

For me, I'd like to see him actually bothering to clean up the messes he left.

He made Clor. If Clor is a danger and running out there lose, go out and get him. And beyond that an apology to Thor would be nice.

He made the prison. If Blastar overruns it, don't lock the door and toss away the key. Get in there and help free the prisoners that Reed himself was stupid enough to help put in there in the first place. I know the Initiative took care of that, but FF should have at least helped.

It's not just about begging for forgiveness. It's not enough for him to just shrug and acknowledge that Clor is a mistake... he helped make the mess, he should roll up his sleeves and help clean the mess up.

Exactly...


I dont want them to generalize the issue of Civil War as a whole... I want them to deal with some issues specifically. Iron Mans doing it, and it seems to have provided for some interesting stories and evolutions in the relationships. His exchange with Thor was a nice precursor, and didnt they have a little more dialogue during SI?

Again, Im not saying go through everything .... but have him confront some of the things he did specifically, and deal with it.

[vitruvian]

For me, I'd like to see him actually bothering to clean up the messes he left.

He made Clor. If Clor is a danger and running out there lose, go out and get him. And beyond that an apology to Thor would be nice.

He made the prison. If Blastar overruns it, don't lock the door and toss away the key. Get in there and help free the prisoners that Reed himself was stupid enough to help put in there in the first place. I know the Initiative took care of that, but FF should have at least helped.

It's not just about begging for forgiveness. It's not enough for him to just shrug and acknowledge that Clor is a mistake... he helped make the mess, he should roll up his sleeves and help clean the mess up.

Absolutely, he should be involved in cleaning up his own messes. Of course, given that he supported Tony during Civil War, one of those messes happens to be Osborn now being in charge of everything.... and he might have to solve that one before he's even allowed by the government to fix others like the situation in 42 or decommisioning Clor, excuse me, Ragnarok.

On the other hand, he should also take credit where credit is due for cleaning up other's messes. Osborn wants to take credit for being the savior against Skrull invasion, just because he took a potshot at their leader's head? He wouldn't have had much luck knowing who to shoot if Reed hadn't whipped up a handy Skrullo-detector within minutes of being rescued by Abigail Brand, would he? Sure, Reed and the other Illuminati bear some responsibility for provoking the Skrull Empire way back when and getting captured for study that advanced the Super-Skrull tech, but even that misstep was in reaction to the first umpteen Skrull invasions, most of them thwarted by... who? By Reed Richards, that's who! In fact, he was SWORD before there was a SWORD, from Gormuu on.

Really, if the government felt (and feels) that there needs to be some sort of a 'superhero czar' in place to handle government handling and oversight of the superhuman community, there is and has been only one logical candidate, and it's neither Tony Stark nor Norman Osborn.

[Kasper Cole]

Well the Hulk did beat the breaks off his ass during WWH.

[Shellhead]

If Millar gets to ignore more than 40 years of character development for Reed, why can't subsequent FF writers ignore Millar's brief time writing Reed?

[Expletive Deleted]

If Millar gets to ignore more than 40 years of character development for Reed, why can't subsequent FF writers ignore Millar's brief time writing Reed?Exactly. tenchars

[rick]

When will Reed Richards get what is coming to him ?


The question Doom asks himself every morning while shaving.

[Kasper Cole]

If Millar gets to ignore more than 40 years of character development for Reed, why can't subsequent FF writers ignore Millar's brief time writing Reed?

You talking CW or Millar's run on FF? I dropped FF after like the 3rd issue of his run.

[XPac]

If Millar gets to ignore more than 40 years of character development for Reed, why can't subsequent FF writers ignore Millar's brief time writing Reed?

Well, that's what FF writers seem to be doing.

They're having Reed ignore Clor's rampage and the prison falling to Blastaar, and the consequences of his actions in general.

Personally I think that just makes him look like a bigger jerk... but if you think such an approach is helping the characters, we can agree to disagree.

[CMBMOOL]

If Millar gets to ignore more than 40 years of character development for Reed, why can't subsequent FF writers ignore Millar's brief time writing Reed?

Well they sure aren't doing the same thing for Tony Stark, and where he ended up ?:tongue:

[Drdmx]

If Millar gets to ignore more than 40 years of character development for Reed, why can't subsequent FF writers ignore Millar's brief time writing Reed?

Thats your rationale? How on earth does that make for a better written Reed Richards?

[mikekerr3]

If Millar gets to ignore more than 40 years of character development for Reed, why can't subsequent FF writers ignore Millar's brief time writing Reed?

Because on case of editorial laziness and incompetence does not justify another:biggrin:

[Shellhead]

Thats your rationale? How on earth does that make for a better written Reed Richards?

Get used to it, that's how Marvel deals with mistakes... instead of heavy-handed retcons or reality punches, they tend to just ignore mistakes made in the past. And I dispute your concept of a better-written Reed Richards, where one writer with a grudge gets to ignore all previous interpretations for the sake of a bad story.

[passenger]

While I do not feel the need to see Thor beating the living daylights out of Reed,I hope the two of them confront each other about the Clor thing.Plus,Reed owes a lot of explanations to those he threw in 42,like the Tinkerer,and Jack Flag.Since GotG and the FF move in similar circles,I hope to see a team-up (and the confrontation) at some point.

[XPac]

Get used to it, that's how Marvel deals with mistakes... instead of heavy-handed retcons or reality punches, they tend to just ignore mistakes made in the past. And I dispute your concept of a better-written Reed Richards, where one writer with a grudge gets to ignore all previous interpretations for the sake of a bad story.

So you're arguing a better written Reed Richards is going to ignore Clor and the 42 prison? He'll let the rest of the MU deal with his mistakes while he moves on to other things.

Mind you I'm not saying you're wrong if you are saying that... because Reed can be a jerk with tunnel vision at times.

[Iron Maiden]

If Millar gets to ignore more than 40 years of character development for Reed, why can't subsequent FF writers ignore Millar's brief time writing Reed?

This make perfect sense to me. They should ignore MOD and the megladons too. I think this is why at times Joe Q makes a lousy EIC. He doesn't know how to reign in some of these "rock star" writers or just doesn't know a bad story when he sees one either (BND).

[Mark_S]

I actually wouldn't mind it if the FF would stop dealing with Civil War. McDuffie did at least two storylines on it. Dark Reign: FF was partially about Reed and his mistakes. The current "Solve Everything" arc is at least tangentially related. Even if you're not getting what you want out of those storylines, I don't see how you could say it's not being dealt with. Ad nauseum.

Seriously, what exactly would "get[ting] what he has coming to him" entail? Should Marvel devote a six issue arc to Reed sobbing, rending his garments, getting beaten up by a resurrected Bill Foster, and breaking the fourth wall to beg for your forgiveness?

It hasn't dealt with it. Dark Reign: FF barely mentioned cw and wwh, it was more a fun romp through alternate realities that resolved nothing but set up the current run on the FF. The storyline before that did nothing but throw Sue into danger so Reed could save her. The actually consequences for Reed from his actions in cw/wwh have been at most getting beat up a bit by the Hulk in wwh.

I'm not sure what 'getting what was coming to him' would entail. But at the very least I'd like a few scenes with Ben asking him what the hell was up with cloning Thor and if there are any more clones out there, maybe of Ben, Sue and Johny. Or how about Reed explaining to Franklin just why 42 was a good idea. Because after FF:Secret Invasion I'm sure Franklin has some questions. Then there are the people who were dragged through the Baxter building for life-long exile in 42, I'm sure they have some hurt feelings. A storyline where Dr. Doom uses these people-or survivors from the current attack on 42-against Reed and the FF would be a great one, it would be so like Doom to use people that Reed has wronged against him.

Mark_S

[dkostus]

But how is "Reed Richards as A$$hole" out of character? As someone else pointed out he:

-led his girlfriend, a teenager, and his best friend to steal a shuttle and fly through radiation ...over the warnings of his best friend who got turned into a monster. (Ben was right...)

-failed to turn his friend back into a man despite his genius.

-On multiple occassions, after his friend DID get turned back into a man, intentionally turned him back into the Thing because he deemed something else more important than his friends humanity (is that really his decision?)

- habitually ignored his wife and kids because he thought his work was more important... but paid attention when Namor, the jock to his geek, came calling on her.

Maybe Reed has always just been an a$$hole? If I was Ben Grimm, I certainly would not still be friends with him. Even the skrull $hit with turning them into cows was pretty f'd up.

[Mark_S]

Reed's biggest problem has always been his connection to humanity, it is one of the things he shares in common with Victor. The main difference was always that while Reed could be pre-occupied with a problem to the point of indifference he was never indifferent to human suffering that he himself had a hand in causing. With wwh there was no hint that he was bothered by the fact that the ship exploded killing who knows how many. The old Reed wouldn't have stopped until he found out why that happened. This current Reed considers humanity a group of sheep to be guided, not helped and that is not the Reed of the past.
Reed didn't talk Sue and Johnny onto the ship, he just let them come along. And as he confessed to Val it was an aroguant thing to do. When they came back mutated Reed realized that going the X-men route with masked and hidden ID's would be counter productive. It was his idea to make the FF public, no hidden agendas, no masked and not so much a group of crime fighters as a family of adventurers. That Reed had a bit of humility and realized that his intellect did not give him the right to choose the destiny of mankind.
At times though he has made a decision where he hurt the ones he loved in order to save the rest of the world or more. Not only with Ben but there was a time he shut down Franklin's mind when his son's powers were triggered prematurely. The current Reed would do that, but wouldn't suffer any guilt over it. The current Reed doesn't have any guilt. Just an overwhelming arrogance. He's the most un-appealing, un-caring Reed I've ever read and I've read him since 74.

Mark_S

[Monty_Cristo]

i'm surprised that the FF ever get what's coming to them. have you seen their mailman? you could start forest fires with those bifocals.

[SquidSquod]

Never. Enough with the witch hunt. F4 needs a more constructive rehabilitation.

[Drdmx]

Get used to it, that's how Marvel deals with mistakes... instead of heavy-handed retcons or reality punches, they tend to just ignore mistakes made in the past. And I dispute your concept of a better-written Reed Richards, where one writer with a grudge gets to ignore all previous interpretations for the sake of a bad story.

No. You're taking what I said out of context and turning it into something else.

You're saying the writer wrote Reed badly back then. Ok.... that's your opinion. As I stated before, I dont know or care enough about Reed for it to really matter one way or the other.

My argument is that "good writing" as you stated earlier isnt to ignore the writer that came before you. You could even make the argument that Stark wasnt written to character during Civil War... but hey he got picked to be the "bad guy". Whatever. But it would be stupid for Matt Fraction to come in and start writing Iron Man and just ignore any fallout from Civil War, regardless of EVERYONES opinion on the way Stark was written at any point during the event.

How come that same logic wouldnt apply to Reed Richards?

[CMBMOOL]

My argument is that "good writing" as you stated earlier isnt to ignore the writer that came before you. You could even make the argument that Stark wasnt written to character during Civil War... but hey he got picked to be the "bad guy". Whatever. But it would be stupid for Matt Fraction to come in and start writing Iron Man and just ignore any fallout from Civil War, regardless of EVERYONES opinion on the way Stark was written at any point during the event.

How come that same logic wouldnt apply to Reed Richards?

I have to admit with the people wanting Tony Stark's head for his actions in Secret Invasion, it makes no sense why the people aren't attack the Fantastic four for their involvement with the Skrulls ?:frown:

[XPac]

I have to admit with the people wanting Tony Stark's head for his actions in Secret Invasion, it makes no sense why the people aren't attack the Fantastic four for their involvement with the Skrulls ?:frown:

There were a few reasons for that (Osborns PR machine for example), but in general I think the idea is that Stark had more publicity and power than Reed. That means he gets more credit when things go right, and more blame when things go wrong.

And that to me works up to a point.. though I do nonetheless think FF writers went out of their way to make sure Reed wasn't too badly burned by his decision. WWH was a glaring exception.

[CMBMOOL]

There were a few reasons for that (Osborns PR machine for example), but in general I think the idea is that Stark had more publicity and power than Reed. That means he gets more credit when things go right, and more blame when things go wrong.

And that to me works up to a point.. though I do nonetheless think FF writers went out of their way to make sure Reed wasn't too badly burned by his decision. WWH was a glaring exception.

Hold on, as I recall In the events of World War Hulk and Plant Skarr following it, Reed did get involved in trying to save the Hulk and his son from Osborn's forces, and back then noone questioned his original decision to banish the green skin goliath, not even Ben. :frown:

[Frank]

Hey if Pym was a Skrull during Civil War they can make Reed a Kree. Problem solved.

[Mark_S]

Hold on, as I recall In the events of World War Hulk and Plant Skarr following it, Reed did get involved in trying to save the Hulk and his son from Osborn's forces, and back then noone questioned his original decision to banish the green skin goliath, not even Ben. :frown:

Except for Sue no one in the FF seems to have had a long term problems with Reed's actions in cw/wwh and even she was pretty much muzzled after a few issue of the FF and was only allowed one line during wwh. It's a case in my opinion of the writers not wanting to bother with the work that it would take to face it all.

Mark_S

[Jason Abbadon]

But how is "Reed Richards as A$$hole" out of character? As someone else pointed out he:

-led his girlfriend, a teenager, and his best friend to steal a shuttle and fly through radiation ...over the warnings of his best friend who got turned into a monster. (Ben was right...)

-failed to turn his friend back into a man despite his genius.

-On multiple occassions, after his friend DID get turned back into a man, intentionally turned him back into the Thing because he deemed something else more important than his friends humanity (is that really his decision?)

- habitually ignored his wife and kids because he thought his work was more important... but paid attention when Namor, the jock to his geek, came calling on her.

Maybe Reed has always just been an a$$hole? If I was Ben Grimm, I certainly would not still be friends with him. Even the skrull $hit with turning them into cows was pretty f'd up.
add to that how he''s done NOTING to help his friend Tony! I mean, Tony is being publicly tarred and feathered by Osborn, hinted by HAMMER nad ever villian Osborn can dredge up and called a traitor to the human race on national TV- but Reed's too busy playing with himself to help out.
(playing with his alterante reality selves to be precise)

Sue should mention Reed's fair-weather friend attitude- really, anyone not in the FF cant expect help from them unless specificly asked.
And that's pretty crappy for Marvel's "First Family".

[Jason Abbadon]

But how is "Reed Richards as A$$hole" out of character? As someone else pointed out he:

-led his girlfriend, a teenager, and his best friend to steal a shuttle and fly through radiation ...over the warnings of his best friend who got turned into a monster. (Ben was right...)

-failed to turn his friend back into a man despite his genius.

-On multiple occassions, after his friend DID get turned back into a man, intentionally turned him back into the Thing because he deemed something else more important than his friends humanity (is that really his decision?)

- habitually ignored his wife and kids because he thought his work was more important... but paid attention when Namor, the jock to his geek, came calling on her.

Maybe Reed has always just been an a$$hole? If I was Ben Grimm, I certainly would not still be friends with him. Even the skrull $hit with turning them into cows was pretty f'd up.
add to that how he''s done NOTHING to help his friend Tony!
Tony is being publicly tarred and feathered by Osborn, hinted by HAMMER and called a traitor to the human race on national TV- but Reed's too busy playing with himself to help out.
(playing with his alterante reality selves to be precise)
Reed could easily go on national TV nad explain that Tony is no traitor, Osborn's mentally ill and there was no way to detect the Skrull invasion in advance.

Sue should mention Reed's fair-weather friend attitude- really, anyone not in the FF cant expect help from them unless specificly asked.
And that's pretty crappy for Marvel's "First Family".

Of course, it's really Marvel doing a poor job integrating the FF into the greater crossover storyline of Dark Reign.

The FF have a ton of popularity but never use it to help their friends- heck, the Torch should never stand for the mayor of New York sending Mandroid hit-squads after his pal Spidey...but Marvel lets it happen over and over.

[Jason Abbadon]

But how is "Reed Richards as A$$hole" out of character? As someone else pointed out he:

-led his girlfriend, a teenager, and his best friend to steal a shuttle and fly through radiation ...over the warnings of his best friend who got turned into a monster. (Ben was right...)

-failed to turn his friend back into a man despite his genius.

-On multiple occassions, after his friend DID get turned back into a man, intentionally turned him back into the Thing because he deemed something else more important than his friends humanity (is that really his decision?)

- habitually ignored his wife and kids because he thought his work was more important... but paid attention when Namor, the jock to his geek, came calling on her.

Maybe Reed has always just been an a$$hole? If I was Ben Grimm, I certainly would not still be friends with him. Even the skrull $hit with turning them into cows was pretty f'd up.
add to that how he''s done NOTHING to help his friend Tony!
Tony is being publicly tarred and feathered by Osborn, hinted by HAMMER and called a traitor to the human race on national TV- but Reed's too busy playing with himself to help out.
(playing with his alterante reality selves to be precise)
Reed could easily go on national TV nad explain that Tony is no traitor, Osborn's mentally ill and there was no way to detect the Skrull invasion in advance.

Sue should mention Reed's fair-weather friend attitude- really, anyone not in the FF cant expect help from them unless specificly asked.
And that's pretty crappy for Marvel's "First Family".

Of course, it's really Marvel doing a poor job integrating the FF into the greater crossover storyline of Dark Reign.

The FF have a ton of popularity but never use it to help their friends- heck, the Torch should never stand for the mayor of New York sending Mandroid hit-squads after his pal Spidey...but Marvel lets it happen over and over.

[Whirlwind Dinamo]

But how is "Reed Richards as A$$hole" out of character? As someone else pointed out he:

-led his girlfriend, a teenager, and his best friend to steal a shuttle and fly through radiation ...over the warnings of his best friend who got turned into a monster. (Ben was right...)

-failed to turn his friend back into a man despite his genius.

-On multiple occassions, after his friend DID get turned back into a man, intentionally turned him back into the Thing because he deemed something else more important than his friends humanity (is that really his decision?)

- habitually ignored his wife and kids because he thought his work was more important... but paid attention when Namor, the jock to his geek, came calling on her.

Maybe Reed has always just been an a$$hole? If I was Ben Grimm, I certainly would not still be friends with him. Even the skrull $hit with turning them into cows was pretty f'd up.

One thing I don't get is why everyone is still screaming for Tony's head after Clor, when Reed is so deep in that mess aswell and also responsible for any death/murder

[Mark_S]

One thing I don't get is why everyone is still screaming for Tony's head after Clor, when Reed is so deep in that mess aswell and also responsible for any death/murder

It's a puzzle only marvel can solve and I don't think that they are even aware of it, much less have any intention of solving it.

Mark_S

[finfangfool]

With an Asgard-themed event they should bring Clor back. Maybe Reed can face his fear that one day his experiments could result in the death of a loved one (maybe have Clor take out one of his kids?) It's unlikely at this point with the new title and all, but I'd be fine with the Richards' getting a divorce.

She's too level-headed and strong a woman (especially compared to her character when she married him) to be with such an inattentive and emotionally detached man. She's probably just staying for the kids, but if his damned Frankenstein takes out her precious Franklin (what use is that kid anyway?) maybe she'll finally come to her senses and start shacking up with Namor. Plus, half of Reed's money? She could buy her own country. This is why I'll never be a comic book writer (well, that and I'm unqualified). But maybe Millar's reading this and wants in for another run. I can hope.

[SeritoNiN]

To the OP, I think it's a great question. I'd love to see a storyline with karma hitting him hard.

[Mark_S]

I doubt it will happen, especially now. It would require a lot of heavy lifting writing-wise and the marvel writers have very little inclination to do that sort of thing. They don't have too as long as the events keep selling. Sometimes you'll get a writer who takes a character that's been shredded-like Tigra in Avengers Accademy-that the writer will strain to lift from what has been done, but it's rare. Given the editorial staff at marvel now I can't see them tackling stuff like Reed's actions in cw/wwh anymore than they'd deal with Ms. Marvel's hypocrisy. I believe that they are more than capable of doing so, but there's no need to put that much effort into the stories as long as the events are selling.

Mark_S

[Monty_Cristo]

Reed should be an @$$hole. i'm surprised that he can relate to people, at all. he's like a super-genius version of Don Draper but w/o the philandering.

[Shellhead]

This year is the 50th anniversary for the Fantastic Four. I doubt that Marvel will observe the occasion by emphasizing how badly Reed was out of character for several months in 2009.

[Monty_Cristo]

add to that how he''s done NOTING to help his friend Tony! I mean, Tony is being publicly tarred and feathered by Osborn, hinted by HAMMER nad ever villian Osborn can dredge up and called a traitor to the human race on national TV- but Reed's too busy playing with himself to help out.
(playing with his alterante reality selves to be precise)

Sue should mention Reed's fair-weather friend attitude- really, anyone not in the FF cant expect help from them unless specificly asked.
And that's pretty crappy for Marvel's "First Family".

he helped Tony out at the start of Stark Resilient. Reed's just extremely self-absorbed. i don't his awareness of Stark's earlier troubles.

[Petes12]

Yeah, but that was for the Civil War alone, and it still didn't solve anything, but lead into Hickman's run on FF. :frown:

So you've looked at the pretty pictures but you're basically illiterate? Seriously, did you just not read the first arc of hickman's FF run?

[toneloak]

First, in regards to the 42 prison: Reed is a government employee and was contracted to build that prison. He has built them in the past this one was just another one he was paid for. In no way was he the decision maker in who gets imprisoned. Side Note if he didn't build the prison chances are the government would have just put out a kill on site order for any illegals seen seeing how without 42 they had other possible way of dealing with the powered vigilantes.

Second, he is not so much a hero as he is a scientist & classic adventurer character, I say this because in those role traditional adventurers in fiction (ex: Dr. Quest from Johnny quest). Adventurers usually represented some governing body, the people and their sponsors. Which unlike heroes they don't buck the system unless the system interferes with whatever adventure they have planned. I think Millar or JMS cover this topic during the Civil War series.

Clor, 42, and Hulk's exile all falls under the umbrella that he had the public and government support. And, it was shown that like any scientist he regret the mistakes he's made but he is not psychologically handicapped so when his family forgave him he forgave himself. All of which seems to play well in his continuity given that his mistakes & successes put his family in danger every day, if not then he would have been emotionally crippled a long time ago.

I don't think there is much more story to be told unless there is some kind of deep relationship between Reed and Thor I don't know about.

[Brannon]

I agree that you can't reconcile Richard's recent actions. Modern Reed, at least the version presented in Civil War and the Illumanti stuff, isn't the same character as portrayed by Lee, Kirby and Byrne. I think as fans we have the right to simply wait for some retconned explanation as to why he acted so unheroic. Same with Stark.

Part of the problem is that many writers no longer seem to look at Reed with respect, awe and a bit of humor (like the contrast with Ben). They seem intimidated by him and as a consequence grow to dislike him. He's really one of the more interested characters when you get past the fady, superficial surface level of most characters that these writers seem to prefer.

[ZooperSaiyan]

To the OP, I think it's a great question. I'd love to see a storyline with karma hitting him hard.


I hope his kid turns psycho and cripples him, he tried to lobotomize his son you know. and his girl was never his, Doom shacked up with Sue so many times now.

[Iron Maiden]

I hope his kid turns psycho and cripples him, he tried to lobotomize his son you know. and his girl was never his, Doom shacked up with Sue so many times now.

You must get a different version of the FF from what I've been reading :confused: Other than an alternate reality, when did this alleged shacking up occur??

[ZooperSaiyan]

Sue has been with Namor, Panther to name a few
This is not Watchmen, you'll get a toned down vegetarian diet on Marvel, no meatballs and taco showing all that detail. Marvel after all is a comic company for kids, all they can do is imply something has been going on
Sue has been in comics doing stuff with Namor and Panther that's very close to the edge without getting too graphic, Reed ignores her for his science gizmos and I'm pretty sure she's been lonely
There have been questions about the DNA of one of his kids, pure Maury soap opera there


and the kid Valeria really has a natural knack for magic and an affinity for Doom style armor

wonder why?

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7320/sosueme.jpg

Everyone's shocked, but Wolverine looks sad he never had a go on the village bicycle/ office-pump

[the dot and the line]

Everyone's shocked, but Wolverine looks sad he never had a go on the village bicycle

My favorite is Daredevil looking in the completely wrong direction

[FanboyStranger]

Sue has been with Namor, Panther to name a few
This is not Watchmen, you'll get a toned down vegetarian diet on Marvel, no meatballs and taco showing all that detail. Marvel after all is a comic company for kids, all they can do is imply something has been going on
Sue has been in comics doing stuff with Namor and Panther that's very close to the edge without getting too graphic, Reed ignores her for his science gizmos and I'm pretty sure she's been lonely
There have been questions about the DNA of one of his kids, pure Maury soap opera there


and the kid Valeria really has a natural knack for magic and an affinity for Doom style armor

wonder why?

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7320/sosueme.jpg

Everyone's shocked, but Wolverine looks sad he never had a go on the village bicycle/ office-pump

Reed was trapped in Doom's armor at the time.

[Iron Maiden]

Reed was trapped in Doom's armor at the time.

Beat me to it. It's like people who see the cover of the Enquirer and take it ont face value. :wink:

[Taiso]

My favorite is Daredevil looking in the completely wrong direction

I was just about to post that this thread is built on a terrible portrayal of Reed Richards and that it, like the stories it came from, should be forgotten and we should all pretend that it never happened because it was a horrible, horrible depiction of Mr. Fantastic.

Then I read this comment and laughed long enough for two people.

Marvel hates blind people. Ironic.

[Monty_Cristo]

I was just about to post that this thread is built on a terrible portrayal of Reed Richards and that it, like the stories it came from, should be forgotten and we should all pretend that it never happened because it was a horrible, horrible depiction of Mr. Fantastic.

Then I read this comment and laughed long enough for two people.

Marvel hates blind people. Ironic.

i thought they just hated the deaf. look at how Echo was treated.

[FanboyStranger]

My favorite is Daredevil looking in the completely wrong direction

Heh. I never caught that. That's actually really funny. This just became my favorite piece of Sal Larroca art.

[Finganforn]

My favorite is Daredevil looking in the completely wrong direction

He isn't looking in the wrong direction. As a blind guy he "looks" with his ears, he pointed one in the right direction to get a clear "view" of the situation :tongue:

[FanboyStranger]

He isn't looking in the wrong direction. As a blind guy he "looks" with his ears, he pointed one in the right direction to get a clear "view" of the situation :tongue:

Damnit, why did you have to go and ruin it with a perfectly reasonable explanation? I hope you choke on your No-Prize.:biggrin:

[DoomScribe]

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/doomscribe/Den%20of%20Madness/Card%20Collections/Sketch%20Cards/DuronMarvelMasterpieces2.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/doomscribe/Den%20of%20Madness/Card%20Collections/Sketch%20Cards/AdamClevelandHeroesnVillains2.jpg

... oh my ....

[Regulus B.]

Soon I hope. Then Susan can ditch that −273.15°C and get with a hero. Like Namor and/or Doom.

[petran]

Richards is lacking in emotional intelligence and exhibits traits of sociopathy pure and simple. This isn't unique, in real life studies have documented similar traits and patterns of behaviour in high-powered professionals and other occupational categories including science. In that sense Marvel was spot on with this character...

[Finganforn]

Damnit, why did you have to go and ruin it with a perfectly reasonable explanation? I hope you choke on your No-Prize.:biggrin:

I'm evil (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM) :wink:

[tigerkaya]

I like Reed actually. His character in being so delved into science but tends to forget to be human at times is one of the things I enjoy out of him. But I don't agree with the majority on this thread. I've read some good stories of Reed showing humility, emotions, and care for his family. Now does this mean I should ignore Civil War characterization, no. But then again no one came back looking good in that event. What I'm saying is that Reed has displayed these levels of emotion for his kids and wife. This hate on Reed is just hate for how boring he is. Which is his character by the way. Its one of the reasons I enjoy the Doom and Reed rivalry both perspective being clashed with one another and both questioning the others ethics.

[Skaddix]

No one on Team Stark looked good u mean.

[nanteen]

Personally I live for the day that a large line of protestors show up in front of FF Tower. Made up of people representing every charity and illness on the planet. Led by a small bald child.

When Reed finally comes outside the child steps forward explaining her name and how she is dying from leukemia, she then looks at Reed and asks.

"Mr Fantastic sir, we are all here to ask you one thing. Why don't you care about us?

Reed of course would sputter.

She continues "Everyone says your the smartest man on the planet. You create all these wonderful inventions. But why can't you help :points at a child in a wheelchair: Him walk, or :pointing to another person: or her she is dying from chemicals that have polluted her water, or any of the diseases or cancers, or starvation around the world?

" Why does it seem you only want to use your mind to make flashes costumes and flying cars? Why can't you help us?"


Sorry but I have always thought that Marvel made the various "super geniuses" in Marvel WAAaAAAyyyyy to smart. And they have never been made to answer why dont they try to actually fix the worlds problems.

Hell if the Leader, High Evolutionary, Dr DOOM, Modok, Mad Thinker, The Wizard, and Insert character I forgot. Got together and decided to fix the worlds problems the humans of the world would probably just let them rule the planet since they would be their saviors. (and yes I know the Emperor DOOM graphic novel so it might not last)

Its just a thing that's always nagged at me when people dont do the STUPIDLY obvious in books. Like how in DC, why the hell a gotham cop hasnt put like 30 rounds into the jokers skull after Batman turns him in again is beyond me.

[Iron Maiden]

Personally I live for the day that a large line of protestors show up in front of FF Tower. Made up of people representing every charity and illness on the planet. Led by a small bald child.

When Reed finally comes outside the child steps forward explaining her name and how she is dying from leukemia, she then looks at Reed and asks.

"Mr Fantastic sir, we are all here to ask you one thing. Why don't you care about us?

Reed of course would sputter.

She continues "Everyone says your the smartest man on the planet. You create all these wonderful inventions. But why can't you help :points at a child in a wheelchair: Him walk, or :pointing to another person: or her she is dying from chemicals that have polluted her water, or any of the diseases or cancers, or starvation around the world?

" Why does it seem you only want to use your mind to make flashes costumes and flying cars? Why can't you help us?"

Because he can't in a lot of those cases. Reed couldn't even prevent Sue's miscarriage and went to others like Dr. Michael Morbius and Otto Octavious for help. Besides, since the FF staved off the Galactus way back when, they get a pass don't you think? Or are you one of those "yeah, but what have you done lately?" types? :wink:

Come to think of it...Why doesn't Storm just dedicate her life to making sure any drought stricken area get the rain they need?


Sorry but I have always thought that Marvel made the various "super geniuses" in Marvel WAAaAAAyyyyy to smart. And they have never been made to answer why dont they try to actually fix the worlds problems.

That's sort of what happens in the Englehart/McKone mini series Fantastic Four: Big Town from about 10 years ago (http://www.westfieldcomics.com/wow/low/low_int_043.html)

Hell if the Leader, High Evolutionary, Dr DOOM, Modok, Mad Thinker, The Wizard, and Insert character I forgot. Got together and decided to fix the worlds problems the humans of the world would probably just let them rule the planet since they would be their saviors. (and yes I know the Emperor DOOM graphic novel so it might not last)

Its just a thing that's always nagged at me when people dont do the STUPIDLY obvious in books. Like how in DC, why the hell a gotham cop hasnt put like 30 rounds into the jokers skull after Batman turns him in again is beyond me.

But would you really want to read a comic about Reed Richards, billionaire industrialist and his day to day business operations? That's already been done to some extent in Iron Man. There are some companies that pay Reed to keep from commercial applications of his work because it might upset the world economic balance too quickly and put too many people out of work.


In the case of Doom and the other villains mentioned, they are by default just aren't designed to be altruistic. Or take Doom's case for example...he could simply say "where were you when my parents and fellow gypsies were mistreated and killed in Latveria?" and give the world the one finger salute if they wanted to force him into sharing his tech. Sure comic books take the concept of the polymath and push the envelope beyond what is believable. This is nothing new since it goes back to the days of Doc Savage, a pulp era creation who probably inspired Stan and Jack's version of Reed Richards.

[nanteen]

yes i understand if they did what I asked that no there wouldnt be a comic series anymore.

I would like to see a one shot.

As for people like Storm, umm ya why would she not help out drought victims?

[Monty_Cristo]

yes i understand if they did what I asked that no there wouldnt be a comic series anymore.

I would like to see a one shot.

As for people like Storm, umm ya why would she not help out drought victims?

because weather changes in one area can have an adverse effect on weather on the opposite side of the world. she psionically influences weather patterns. but there is a price associated with it.

[blopblopblop]

When it comes to feelings it often feels that Reed Richards doesn't have any. I mean when he does finally shows them, it either too late and everyone around him is hurt badly.

I mean when ahve we ever sen Reed reflect over his recent choices that he helped played a part in and shaped the Marvel Universe , Civil War World War Hulk and The Secret Invasion ?

When will we sort of see someone asked him over his decisions and how it affected himself and his family ?

I mean is he truly too smart of a man to understand basic emotions ?

What do you all think of this ?

Those were all gawd-awful stories by hacks who either didn't get Reed as a character, or tried to change his character to fit their stories.

Seeing as how these writers ignored decades of characterization, I think it's only fair for everyone else to pretend events in the character assassination never happened and ignore those tales altogether.
It's much easier to write off a brief out-of-character portrayal rather than accept it and ignore everything that's come bfore

[Iron Maiden]

Those were all gawd-awful stories by hacks who either didn't get Reed as a character, or tried to change his character to fit their stories.

Seeing as how these writers ignored decades of characterization, I think it's only fair for everyone else to pretend events in the character assassination never happened and ignore those tales altogether.
It's much easier to write off a brief out-of-character portrayal rather than accept it and ignore everything that's come bfore

I wish I could find the interview, it might have been in an old Wizard magazine, but I recall Millar at least saying that he thought Reed was the MU's biggest $%#hole, and this was a promo for Civil War. If you have that attitude about a character going in, it's not hard to see why CW turned out that way.

I thought Mark Waid wrote a very nice scene in one of his early FF stories where he is telling little Valeria a bedtime story, but he's really talking to himself. He expresses his feelings of regret and guilt about having dragged his best friend and future wife and brother-in-law into his project and ended up changing their lives forever. The late Dwayne McDuffie had a great one shot story and in that he even conceded to Sue that he felt a lot of fault on his side in the ongoing hostilities between him and Victor. It's only certain writers that like to write him as detached and uncaring.

[vitruvian]

I wish I could find the interview, it might have been in an old Wizard magazine, but I recall Millar at least saying that he thought Reed was the MU's biggest $%#hole, and this was a promo for Civil War. If you have that attitude about a character going in, it's not hard to see why CW turned out that way.

I thought Mark Waid wrote a very nice scene in one of his early FF stories where he is telling little Valeria a bedtime story, but he's really talking to himself. He expresses his feelings of regret and guilt about having dragged his best friend and future wife and brother-in-law into his project and ended up changing their lives forever. The late Dwayne McDuffie had a great one shot story and in that he even conceded to Sue that he felt a lot of fault on his side in the ongoing hostilities between him and Victor. It's only certain writers that like to write him as detached and uncaring.

And only one, whose work I usually like, mind you, who wrote him as somebody that would actually approve of a relative being blacklisted for not cooperating with HUAC or the McCarthy hearings.

But no, in the MU he's really not supposed to be Randall Dowling. The not sharing his technology with the world thing is something not at all unique to him, as very little of anybody's superscience can 'trickle down' and still allow the MU to retain its similarity to 'the world outside your window'. Even things like Tony Stark's current attempts to market cars powered by repulsor tech are almost certainly doomed to failure (likely through sabotage), since if they succeeded the world would shortly change to look at least as different as Moore's Watchmen universe did with the electric cars that recharged at fire hydrant-looking 'spark plugs'.

[Iron Maiden]

And only one, whose work I usually like, mind you, who wrote him as somebody that would actually approve of a relative being blacklisted for not cooperating with HUAC or the McCarthy hearings.

Yes, I thought that was a bizarre to use that for Reed's reasoning for his actions in CW. In Simonson's FF, he and the rest of the FF traveled to D.C to testify at a congressional hearing to protest against a similar bill before a committee.

But no, in the MU he's really not supposed to be Randall Dowling. The not sharing his technology with the world thing is something not at all unique to him, as very little of anybody's superscience can 'trickle down' and still allow the MU to retain its similarity to 'the world outside your window'. Even things like Tony Stark's current attempts to market cars powered by repulsor tech are almost certainly doomed to failure (likely through sabotage), since if they succeeded the world would shortly change to look at least as different as Moore's Watchmen universe did with the electric cars that recharged at fire hydrant-looking 'spark plugs'.

That's a very good point...it would make the MU evolve into a utopian society if they did have Stark and Richards be more civic minded. This is what made Marvel stand out in the Silver Age...that they started to bring in RW issues like college protests, etc.

[vitruvian]

That's a very good point...it would make the MU evolve into a utopian society if they did have Stark and Richards be more civic minded.

Well, the world that would result would likely have its own problems. A true utopia is kind of difficult so long as people remain people. Take a look at Englehart's miniseries from many moons ago, Fantastic Four: Big Town for some ideas.

But what it would be, even if not truly utopian, would be different and probably futuristic, which is probably not what Marvel wants for their whole line. Heck, even DC only has Legion of Super-heroes as a niche product, not the majority of their books.

[Whirlwind Dinamo]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Doom and Sue did it, and she gets around

Panther can hit it :biggrin:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/10390/429510-TORC_2x03c_550x367_super.jpg

[Whirlwind Dinamo]

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/MarvelKnights-4021page14.jpg

:eek:

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/MarvelKnights-4021page15.jpg

T'Challa's feet wasn't the only thing Sue could feel!
:biggrin:


Bendis also stated Sue and Namor have been f*cking

[dupersuper]

I thought Mark Waid wrote a very nice scene in one of his early FF stories where he is telling little Valeria a bedtime story, but he's really talking to himself. He expresses his feelings of regret and guilt about having dragged his best friend and future wife and brother-in-law into his project and ended up changing their lives forever.

It was in the 10 Cent preview: it's why I'll likely pick up his run in trade some day.

[Ravin' Ray]

Bendis also stated Sue and Namor have been f*cking
*puts hands over ears*

[Jer]

I don't care what Bendis says.

[tigerkaya]

Bendis also stated Sue and Namor have been f*cking[/B]

Bendis also said Bucky killed Hitler, made Hellcat say she got in bed with Thor and Iron Man and Steve Roger molested Santa Clause.

But do we believe him. No, because he's full of himself and if you do believe the contrivance he writes well I'll need to introduce you to a writer by Chuck Austen.

[Iron Maiden]

[

Bendis also stated Sue and Namor have been

Bendis never wrote the FF so he gets no say in that... and it was just a stupid joke in an interview.