COUNTDOWN: The Novel. Well, look at that.... (SPOILERS)

[Sean Walsh]

"A spoiler for a novelization of a comic series? Really?"

Yup. Because when I browsed it, they changed at least 1 thing: a big happening at its ending.

The Infinity Man kills Darkseid, and then dies alongside his brother.

So not only does the writer, Greg Cox, "not forget" about Infinity Man's fate in this whole big thing, but acknowledges that Drax/Infinity Man is Darkseid's brother....a retconned-by-Byrne-yet-still-pre-established fact that was never mentioned, IIRC, in DOTNG or any Countdown comic.

That change got me to buy it, by gawd, because that was one big flaw muddled in editorial confusion that's been revised for the better.

[Clockan]

"A spoiler for a novelization of a comic series? Really?"

Yup. Because when I browsed it, they changed at least 1 thing: a big happening at its ending.

The Infinity Man kills Darkseid, and then dies alongside his brother.

So not only does the writer, Greg Cox, "not forget" about Infinity Man's fate in this whole big thing, but acknowledges that Drax/Infinity Man is Darkseid's brother....a retconned-by-Byrne-yet-still-pre-established fact that was never mentioned, IIRC, in DOTNG or any Countdown comic.

That change got me to buy it, by gawd, because that was one big flaw muddled in editorial confusion that's been revised for the better.

interesting retcon.. i like that

[CBikle]

That says to me that a Final Crisis novelization may be on the horizon; if that's the case, I hope that Countdown actually leads into and meshes with Final Crisis instead of contradicting it.

[T Hedge Coke]

Wow, a Final Crisis novelization would just miss the point on a lot of fronts (and, I'm sure, be nowhere near as adventurous as the techniques in the comic were). I hadn't even consider the possibility.

I understand the possibility of a Countdown novelization, I just fail to see the point. Was it anywhere near enough of a seller? Can prose bring something other than a more syncretizing vision to the story? Are the comics not readily available as collections? (Then again, the still novelize movies, don't they? Maybe, I'm just not meant to get it.)

[CBikle]

Wow, a Final Crisis novelization would just miss the point on a lot of fronts (and, I'm sure, be nowhere near as adventurous as the techniques in the comic were). I hadn't even consider the possibility.


Not saying that it's a good idea or will even work, but Final Crisis was what Countdown was supposed to be leading up to. Otherwise what's the point ?

IMO, for a variety of reasons, Countdown is the biggest embarrassment in comics history and I'm surprised that DC keeps dredging it up in the form of TPBs and novelizations.

Edit: I'm also curious about a Death Of The New Gods novelization and I'm very curious about how the deaths of Lightray and Orion play out in comparison to each other.

[Thok]

I understand the possibility of a Countdown novelization, I just fail to see the point. Was it anywhere near enough of a seller? Can prose bring something other than a more syncretizing vision to the story? Are the comics not readily available as collections? (Then again, the still novelize movies, don't they? Maybe, I'm just not meant to get it.)

It's meant to be a way of presenting the same story in a different media; a novel allows for a fairly major expansion of ideas that were presented in one page. (Also, it will probably be less rushed than Countdown, and will allow for a rewrite of some of the stupider moments.)

Some people also like novels as a medium better than comic books, or are more likely to buy them randomly at a book store.

Even parts of Final Crisis might work better with a rewrite: the whole "Superman sings to defeat Darkseid" may very well work better with 3-4 paragraphs of prose to describe the process seriously than one panel that's easily mocked.

[T Hedge Coke]

Final Crisis was what Countdown was supposed to be leading up to. Otherwise what's the point ?

I meant the point (or points) of FC, itself part of which was to try out techniques that aren't entirely mainstream for comics, including narrative pointillism and the transparency of the narrative(s) by the end, there. I would be amazed if a novelization attempted any sort of departure from mainstream prose techniques while attempting to still remain a commercial product.

[dmhaight]

I'd like to see him do a Final Crisis novelization. Not only might it make some of the storyline flow a little better (or make more sense for that matter), it'd serve as a good finish to the series. He's written novelizations now for Infinite Crisis, 52, and Countdown; not doing Final Crisis seems like it'd leave the novel versions "incomplete".

[Jolly Mon]

It's meant to be a way of presenting the same story in a different media; a novel allows for a fairly major expansion of ideas that were presented in one page. (Also, it will probably be less rushed than Countdown, and will allow for a rewrite of some of the stupider moments.)

Some people also like novels as a medium better than comic books, or are more likely to buy them randomly at a book store.

Even parts of Final Crisis might work better with a rewrite: the whole "Superman sings to defeat Darkseid" may very well work better with 3-4 paragraphs of prose to describe the process seriously than one panel that's easily mocked.

But who is this supposed to appeal to? No one that I can see other than people who are already reading comics. And was anyone so enthralled with Countdown that they want to revisit it in another form of media?

And as far as Final Crisis: if there is a novelization of it and the writer makes "Superman saves the day by singing" sound good, then I'll want to buy everything he's ever written because he'd be an incredible writer.

[Sean Walsh]

But who is this supposed to appeal to? No one that I can see other than people who are already reading comics. And was anyone so enthralled with Countdown that they want to revisit it in another form of media?

I was attracted to the idea of a COUNTDOWN novel when Greg Cox said a while ago he was given permission to change some stuff. I presumed that they were changes for the better, as COUNTDOWN was full of.......well, we all know what..... :wink:

The change mentioned in my 1st post (not the only change, I take it) was a change I liked, as it reached outside CD (wasn't expecting that) and fixed a DOTNG problem as well.

I didn't pay any mind to the INFINITE CRISIS and 52 novels, as they worked as comics. By COUNTDOWN needed a "do-over."

[Samuraixsithlord]

a Final Crisis Novelization would be good, and it could explain alot of stuff. Like how Wonder Woman was freed from the ALE or how Mary Marvel got possessed by Desaad.

[theblock]

Y'know, I liked some of Countdown, the whole Jimmy Olsen being a carrier of all the dead New Gods souls as a part of Darkseid's plan to rule alone in the 5th World, Granny Goodness taking over Themyscira, and Jason Todd wearing the Red Robin costume for a time, but then it collapses into complete nonsense, Mary Marvel going evil, then good, then evil AGAIN without any real regret. Then in Fina Crisis becoming possessed by Desaad, and then after FC in that loousy JSA Marvel Family wrap up ark, she's Desaad S&M Marvel for no real reason, and Jerry drew it sooooo awfuly that I stoped caring anymore. I wish they'd just killed her off but then we'd have Black Lantern Mary Marvel..shit you just can't win :mad:
!

[jtd]

A Final Crisis novelization should consist of a front and back cover. No pages.

That would be as understandable as that miniseries.

:biggrin:

[dupersuper]

"A spoiler for a novelization of a comic series? Really?"

Yup. Because when I browsed it, they changed at least 1 thing: a big happening at its ending.

The Infinity Man kills Darkseid, and then dies alongside his brother.

So not only does the writer, Greg Cox, "not forget" about Infinity Man's fate in this whole big thing, but acknowledges that Drax/Infinity Man is Darkseid's brother....a retconned-by-Byrne-yet-still-pre-established fact that was never mentioned, IIRC, in DOTNG or any Countdown comic.

That change got me to buy it, by gawd, because that was one big flaw muddled in editorial confusion that's been revised for the better.

Ooooo...Greg Cox wrote this? It may actually be good then...of course Paul Dini was involved in the original, so you never can tell...

[Sean Walsh]

So far (I'm about 90 pages in) it's a pretty straightforward read. Certain story threads are seperated, so if you wanna skip the Jimmy Olsen stuff, for example, you can do so rather easily.

I (sadly?) can't open up COUNTDOWN the comic series to compare specific things, but the only major thing missing that I've noticed is the whole Karate Kid/Duo Damsel thread. Oh, and I think the Monarch stuff should've shown up by now but hasn't.

[Mat001]

But who is this supposed to appeal to? No one that I can see other than people who are already reading comics. And was anyone so enthralled with Countdown that they want to revisit it in another form of media?

The novelizations of comics stories dates back to "The Death And Life Of Superman" in 1993. The novel by Roger Stern adapted the majority of the arc and was released to not only cash-in, but make it so that those who don't feel comfortable reading comics can enjoy it. This has been followed by "Batman: Knightfall", "Kingdom Come", "Batman: No Man's Land", "Crisis On Infinite Earths", "Infinite Crisis" and "52". So this and a forthcoming "Final Crisis" adaption are in keeping with that. Fans who didn't pick up the trades or the singles, can read the books as well. KC, for instance, really fleshed out the mini-series.

[CBikle]

The novelizations of comics stories dates back to "The Death And Life Of Superman" in 1993. The novel by Roger Stern adapted the majority of the arc and was released to not only cash-in, but make it so that those who don't feel comfortable reading comics can enjoy it. This has been followed by "Batman: Knightfall", "Kingdom Come", "Batman: No Man's Land", "Crisis On Infinite Earths", "Infinite Crisis" and "52". So this and a forthcoming "Final Crisis" adaption are in keeping with that. Fans who didn't pick up the trades or the singles, can read the books as well. KC, for instance, really fleshed out the mini-series.

But this is Countdown we're talking about...

DC fans already know that Countdown was irrelevant and bad and non comics readers aren't likely to care about a series that focuses on obscure characters and elements from the DCU.

All the novelizations you mentioned above feature Superman or Batman as main characters and/or are based off a more successful miniseries.

Who exactly is Countdown supposed to appeal to ?

[Jolly Mon]

But this is Countdown we're talking about...

DC fans already know that Countdown was irrelevant and bad and non comics readers aren't likely to care about a series that focuses on obscure characters and elements from the DCU.

All the novelizations you mentioned above feature Superman or Batman as main characters and/or are based off a more successful miniseries.

Who exactly is Countdown supposed to appeal to ?

Thank you, that's my point exactly. I suppose the poster who called it a "do-over" made the most sense, but I see it as throwing money down a rat hole, then going back and doing it again.

[Jolly Mon]

The novelizations of comics stories dates back to "The Death And Life Of Superman" in 1993. The novel by Roger Stern adapted the majority of the arc and was released to not only cash-in, but make it so that those who don't feel comfortable reading comics can enjoy it. This has been followed by "Batman: Knightfall", "Kingdom Come", "Batman: No Man's Land", "Crisis On Infinite Earths", "Infinite Crisis" and "52". So this and a forthcoming "Final Crisis" adaption are in keeping with that. Fans who didn't pick up the trades or the singles, can read the books as well. KC, for instance, really fleshed out the mini-series.

I (having not existed under a rock) am not in need of a run-down of all the novelizations of comics. My point is why make novels out of bad comics?

[Mat001]

But this is Countdown we're talking about...

DC fans already know that Countdown was irrelevant and bad and non comics readers aren't likely to care about a series that focuses on obscure characters and elements from the DCU.

It's still relevant. It's been mentioned throughout DCU books since it's conclusion. Captain Atom remembers being Monarch and blowing up. Earth-51 was still destroyed. Jason Todd's Red Robin costume now belongs to Tim Drake. Ray Palmer is back on Earth-0. Jimmy Olsen remembers that he has different powers and transformations. Plus, it's being used to lead into the "Final Crisis" novelization, which is why the ending was changed for this. I'm a DC fan and I enjoyed the series and will probably pick up the book. "52" focused on obscure characters like Booster Gold, the Question and Black Adam, yet they did a novelization of that. So really, this isn't that big of an issue. People know Jimmy Olsen. Superman appears throughout. There's a Green Lantern in there.

All the novelizations you mentioned above feature Superman or Batman as main characters and/or are based off a more successful miniseries.

And this one leads into the next novelization.

Who exactly is Countdown supposed to appeal to ?

Me, for one. I know there are fans of the series out there. And it will appeal to new readers who have been picking up the last two books Cox has put out.

My point is why make novels out of bad comics?

Because not everyone thinks it was bad and not everyone has read the original comics trade. And as I've been saying, it'll lead into the next one.

[Sean Walsh]

I (having not existed under a rock) am not in need of a run-down of all the novelizations of comics. My point is why make novels out of bad comics?

Because a novel, written after the comic has come out, has the ability to make it better. Here, some stuff (that readers didn't like) is left out, and certain mistakes have been corrected and altered.

[CBikle]

It's still relevant. It's been mentioned throughout DCU books since it's conclusion. Captain Atom remembers being Monarch and blowing up. Earth-51 was still destroyed. Jason Todd's Red Robin costume now belongs to Tim Drake. Ray Palmer is back on Earth-0. Jimmy Olsen remembers that he has different powers and transformations.


I don't think (at least half of) this is true.

Unless I somehow missed it, there's been no Countdown reference in the Captain Atom backup in Action.

The same goes for Jimmy Olsen, who hasn't referenced the Mr. Action ID, knowing Superman's secret ID, anything about Forager or his big fistfight with Darkseid.

And again, the same goes for Ray Palmer, who I don't recall mentioning Earth 0 or the "Challengers Of The Beyond".

I don't read Red Robin, so I'll have to take your word on the Tim Drake stuff.

From what I can tell, most writers seem to be ignoring Countdown and its tie-ins, with Johns, Morrisson and Robinson having had some civil, but non-complementary things to say about it.

[Desaad]

The Jimmy thing is true -- no reference to any of that stuff, and he doesn't know Superman's identity.

But Captain Atom's time as monarch definitely got a flashback scene, as Atom starts to remember more of his past.

[CBikle]

But Captain Atom's time as monarch definitely got a flashback scene, as Atom starts to remember more of his past.

What issue of Action Comics references him blowing up Earth 51 ?

[Mat001]

I don't think (at least half of) this is true.

Unless I somehow missed it, there's been no Countdown reference in the Captain Atom backup in Action.

Action Comics #882 deals with this.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2009/09/ac-88228inks2.jpg

The same goes for Jimmy Olsen, who hasn't referenced the Mr. Action ID, knowing Superman's secret ID, anything about Forager or his big fistfight with Darkseid.

No, but he mentioned in the Jimmy Olsen Special that the reason Agent Assassin is unable to read his mind, has to do with all the transformations he's endured. He doesn't remember Superman identity because the knowledge was lost when Ray Palmer disabled Darkseid's device.

And again, the same goes for Ray Palmer, who I don't recall mentioning Earth 0 or the "Challengers Of The Beyond".

In "Final Crisis", he and Ryan Choi were tapped for the trip to another Earth. He also mentions Jean's death which occured during "Countdown To Final Crisis".

I don't read Red Robin, so I'll have to take your word on the Tim Drake stuff.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3335/3444213330_9b68471885.jpg

http://media.insidepulse.com/zones/comicsnexus/uploads/2009/06/red-robin-001001-500x764.jpg

In the final issues of the Robin series, Red Robin shows up and Tim thinks it's Anarky, but it turns out to be the General. The suit was found in a garbage can, which was where Jason left it. Tim takes the suit from him and when he and Dick have a falling out over Daiman Wayne, Tim puts on the suit and goes off as Red Robin to find out what happened to Bruce.

From what I can tell, most writers seem to be ignoring Countdown and its tie-ins, with Johns, Morrisson and Robinson having had some civil, but non-complementary things to say about it.

Well, you'd be wrong. There are writers dealing with it. Those three may not have anything nice to say, but it's still a part of DC. Rucka and Robinson are working on the Captain Atom co-feature, so they're acknowledging it.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Even parts of Final Crisis might work better with a rewrite: the whole "Superman sings to defeat Darkseid" may very well work better with 3-4 paragraphs of prose to describe the process seriously than one panel that's easily mocked.

No they still will mock - some people just can't grasp certain concepts...

A Final Crisis novelization should consist of a front and back cover. No pages.

That would be as understandable as that miniseries.

:biggrin:

Hilarious.

Action Comics #882 deals with this.
No, but he mentioned in the Jimmy Olsen Special that the reason Agent Assassin is unable to read his mind, has to do with all the transformations he's endured. He doesn't remember Superman identity because the knowledge was lost when Ray Palmer disabled Darkseid's device.
In "Final Crisis", he and Ryan Choi were tapped for the trip to another Earth. He also mentions Jean's death which occured during "Countdown To Final Crisis".
In the final issues of the Robin series, Red Robin shows up and Tim thinks it's Anarky, but it turns out to be the General. The suit was found in a garbage can, which was where Jason left it. Tim takes the suit from him and when he and Dick have a falling out over Daiman Wayne, Tim puts on the suit and goes off as Red Robin to find out what happened to Bruce.
Well, you'd be wrong. There are writers dealing with it. Those three may not have anything nice to say, but it's still a part of DC. Rucka and Robinson are working on the Captain Atom co-feature, so they're acknowledging it.

You really see these few scattered reference and set ups that the 52 issue series really, really matters and was an important story that writers are still building off of?
Really?

I don't know why they would do this unless there was a pre-existing deal or some such.
You certainly don't need to know any of it for FC.

[Will.S]

Y'know, I liked some of Countdown, the whole Jimmy Olsen being a carrier of all the dead New Gods souls as a part of Darkseid's plan to rule alone in the 5th World, Granny Goodness taking over Themyscira, and Jason Todd wearing the Red Robin costume for a time, but then it collapses into complete nonsense, Mary Marvel going evil, then good, then evil AGAIN without any real regret. Then in Fina Crisis becoming possessed by Desaad, and then after FC in that loousy JSA Marvel Family wrap up ark, she's Desaad S&M Marvel for no real reason, and Jerry drew it sooooo awfuly that I stoped caring anymore. I wish they'd just killed her off but then we'd have Black Lantern Mary Marvel..shit you just can't win :mad:
!I also liked several stories and aspects of Countdown and I think it has certain redeeming qualities to it but like Final Crisis, it seemed to be marketed as one thing but actually did something completely different.

It was more of a multiverse romp than anything Final Crisis related. It just happened to have the New Gods in it.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

It was more of a multiverse romp than anything Final Crisis related.

Which is weird, because you'd think it would've made more sense to have the 'multiverse romp' (that needs to be be a genre!) after FC than before it.

[Will.S]

Which is weird, because you'd think it would've made more sense to have the 'multiverse romp' (that needs to be be a genre!) after FC than before it.
Heh, I think that might need it's own genre as well.

Morrison is doing his own version with Multiversity but I don't think the timing for Countdown was too bad. Mostly because it came hot off the heels of 52 which had the last issue show fans that there were in fact 52 different multiverses.

That stuff was definitely worth exploring and Countdown did some things right but unfortunately instead of exploring some of these new universes they decided to just use them as fodder for Morticoccus, Superboy Prime, Monarch, etc.

[CBikle]

Well, you'd be wrong. There are writers dealing with it. Those three may not have anything nice to say, but it's still a part of DC. Rucka and Robinson are working on the Captain Atom co-feature, so they're acknowledging it.

Time travel and/or alternate world's are two of the tools often employed to fix bad comics like Countdown; Captain Atom's history of wandering through history and parallel worlds and his history with Monarch as something of an arch-enemy makes him an ideal candidate for this kind of story.

I wouldn't read too much out of few panels or offhand remarks (vaguely relating to Countdown) scattered through different titles as anything important.

[Adam C]

Even parts of Final Crisis might work better with a rewrite: the whole "Superman sings to defeat Darkseid" may very well work better with 3-4 paragraphs of prose to describe the process seriously than one panel that's easily mocked.

Weirdly taking the time and effort to build it up as some serious process would actually make me take it less seriously, as opposed the dashed-off lunacy of the original which follows the logic of the dream-like and fantastic.

[Mat001]

You really see these few scattered reference and set ups that the 52 issue series really, really matters and was an important story that writers are still building off of?
Really?

The series was meant to be a lead-in. Hence certain story beats from FC were introduced in CDTFC. The main problem of the weekly series is that story beats were dragged out too much for fans. If it was 26 issues, it wouldn't have been so bad. The aftermath of said the weekly series were used, so yes, they are building off of certain things.

I don't know why they would do this unless there was a pre-existing deal or some such.
You certainly don't need to know any of it for FC.

You do for Darkseid and the fate of Earth-51.

Time travel and/or alternate world's are two of the tools often employed to fix bad comics like Countdown; Captain Atom's history of wandering through history and parallel worlds and his history with Monarch as something of an arch-enemy makes him an ideal candidate for this kind of story.

Or it could be that he was turned into Monarch by 7734, which originally had set up Command-D, but the explosion wiped away the personality alterations and he's becoming normal again. Either one is possible.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

You do for Darkseid and the fate of Earth-51.

No you don't.

FC told you those things itself.

[Mat001]

Except it comes across as half-assed if you just go by FC alone. Especially with the Monitors and Earth-51. CD at least built up to it. To those who read it by itself, they don't have a vested interest in Nix Uotan or a reason to care about Earth-51, if they don't know the backstory.

[CBikle]

Except it comes across as half-assed if you just go by FC alone. Especially with the Monitors and Earth-51. CD at least built up to it.

Countdown didn't build up to anything except massive failure.

Final Crisis was seriously screwed up by Countdown and to what extent, we'll probably never know.

Countdown was also great at unintentionally spoiling events in better comics, like Green Lantern, Secret Six, et al.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Except it comes across as half-assed if you just go by FC alone. Especially with the Monitors and Earth-51. CD at least built up to it. To those who read it by itself, they don't have a vested interest in Nix Uotan or a reason to care about Earth-51, if they don't know the backstory.

The trial scene and it's fall out was enough to make you care for Nix Uotan, and was also enough to set up the disappearance of Earth-51.
From that you learned that something is coming, a monitor alone isn't enough to stop it, and yet only one monitor sees it as a multiverse threatening problem.

(And from what we've heard about how Countdown was done, that was how Morrison planned to introduce it, the Countdown writers worked backwards from there).

[CBikle]

(And from what we've heard about how Countdown was done, that was how Morrison planned to introduce it, the Countdown writers worked backwards from there).

The phrase "working backwards" is particularly apt when describing Countdown.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

The phrase "working backwards" is particularly apt when describing Countdown.

People give Geoff Johns hell for turning 8 page Alan Moore stories into crossovers, yet the Countdown writers took 52 issues tell a story Morrison was able to do in a couple of lines: explain Earth 51, explain the Monitor and say where Darkseid is.

[CBikle]

Dan Didio on Countdown at SDCC.

Here: (http://gamblerstelevision.com/241611)

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Dan Didio on Countdown at SDCC.

Here: (http://gamblerstelevision.com/241611)

'Don't worry about the books that have come out, get excited for the books that will come out' is poor advice, and logically flawed.

People paid for Countdown, and it shows how unprepared DC is at these big events they like to think they are all about.

[Will.S]

'Don't worry about the books that have come out, get excited for the books that will come out' is poor advice, and logically flawed.

People paid for Countdown, and it shows how unprepared DC is at these big events they like to think they are all about.
Yeah I actually had the same reaction.

I paid hard earned money and expected a better story and actual pay off, why shouldn't I still be pissed about it? If there was ever time where I wish a customer satisfaction guarantee should be granted, Countdown would be the main reason for it. But as of the moment, DC has lost me with weeklies so thanks to Countdown I don't think I'll be seeing myself buying more of those anytime soon.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Yeah I actually had the same reaction.

I paid hard earned money and expected a better story and actual pay off, why shouldn't I still be pissed about it?

Especially when those who made it still try and justify it's existence, and don't seem to be learning all the lessons they should from it.
As you say, it put you off their weeklies.

But as of the moment, DC has lost me with weeklies so thanks to Countdown I don't think I'll be seeing myself buying more of those anytime soon.

Wednesday Comics was pretty much the exact opposite of Countdown - creator driven stories, self contained and a beautiful show case for the medium.

[Will.S]

Wednesday Comics was pretty much the exact opposite of Countdown - creator driven stories, self contained and a beautiful show case for the medium.
Yeah, I was going to actually give it a chance at some point but I just couldn't for various reasons. Mostly because of the price and the paper quality.

[Sean Whitmore]

My first instinct is to laugh at the idea of a Countdown novel.

(And I did.)

But y'know what? I'd actually read this.

(For free. From the library.)

If for no other reason than I'd finally be able to understand what people are talking about when they discuss what happened in the series after I dropped it.

(After issue 2.)

Plus, God knows the story could only benefit from a tighter focus and having only one writer.


SEAN

[Paul Newell]

So what did you think, Sean?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

So what did you think, Sean?

Even if he had the book in his hand, it'll probably take him more than 26mins to read it!

That said (going off of Sean's point) I read the Knightfall novel when I was a young lad (several times).
When a friend, bolstered by the novel, brought the first trade, we were all rather let down.
It wasn't as much a cohesive whole as the novel.
(Especially as the novel crammed four issue spin off mini's into a chapter).

[Sean Whitmore]

So what did you think, Sean?

Oops, sorry for the heteronym-based confusion. I meant I would read it, not that I had read it. :smile:


SEAN

[Sean Walsh]

I finished it today.......


Eh, not bad.


They completely skipped the Trickster/Piper, Monarch and Karate Kid storylines. No Buddy Blank or Kamandi world, no Cadmus beyond Jimmy's tests, no Superboy Prime or Mxyzptlk.....and curiously, the destructions of Nix Uotan's Earths are completely absent too.

The Infinity Man is Darkseid's killer, not Orion. It works (although Cox gets the prophecy wrong in the final battle), and they don't touch on the Anti-Life Entity aspect of DOTNG - he's just an agent of the Source who has found the Fourth World "wanting."

They use the Challengers name a lot, which the comic series didn't until the very end. But.....well, they keep the Challengers together at the end, even though DC did absolutely nothing with the "who monitors the Monitors" schtick past COUNTDOWN.

And yes, they still have Turtle Jimmy vs. Darkseid in the ending. :tongue:

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

the destructions of Nix Uotan's Earths are completely absent too.


But then how will Final Crisis work?

Oh noes!

What?
They'll just have the scene start with the trial and give you all the information and character introduction from there?
Ballsy.

[Sean Walsh]

They'll just have the scene start with the trial and give you all the information and character introduction from there?
Ballsy.

IIRC (sad that I have to use that acronym for something I read a mere couple hours ago), Uotan sided with the Challengers at the end. Maybe that's the reason for a trial in the as-of-yet FINAL CRISIS novel.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

IIRC (sad that I have to use that acronym for something I read a mere couple hours ago), Uotan sided with the Challengers at the end. Maybe that's the reason for a trial in the as-of-yet FINAL CRISIS novel.

Or like with the comic, they'll just have the trial, and it all happened off panel.

I was mocking the idea that FC didn't have enough information on it, even though it was nutted out first, and the countdown writers worked backwards from it.

[CYOTI]

Worked backwards?

You are being far too charitable here.

It was more likely they took all the nonsensical orders from DC Editorial and tried to incorporate it into some semblance of a story while knowing absolutely nothing or ignoring entirely the premise of Final Crisis because really the backstory to FC was pretty simple, the New Gods Ragnorak happens and Darkseid wins. How anyone could go wrong with such a simple storyline and create the absolute suckfest that was Countdown is beyond me especially since so much of the crap in Countdown had nothing to do with FC.

[Sean Whitmore]

They completely skipped the Trickster/Piper, Monarch and Karate Kid storylines. No Buddy Blank or Kamandi world, no Cadmus beyond Jimmy's tests, no Superboy Prime or Mxyzptlk.....and curiously, the destructions of Nix Uotan's Earths are completely absent too.

This may sound like a silly question, but...what's the story about, then?

Pretty much all I knew of the main plot was world-hopping to find the Atom so he can cure a super-virus.


SEAN

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

This may sound like a silly question, but...what's the story about, then?

SEAN

Maybe it's a bunch of odd events start happening, leading to the slow realisation that there are other dimensions with different copies of Earth on them and something bad is happening, leading into Final Crisis....

Oh, hang on, that would almost make sense... much better to have people blindly running from Earth to Earth, before their existence is revealed to all in Final Crisis.

[Jolly Mon]

Even parts of Final Crisis might work better with a rewrite: the whole "Superman sings to defeat Darkseid" may very well work better with 3-4 paragraphs of prose to describe the process seriously than one panel that's easily mocked.

No they still will mock - some people just can't grasp certain concepts...


Are you seriously claiming that people who think "Superman sings to defeat Darkseid" is well worthy of mocking are the ones at fault because they "just can't grasp certain concepts"? You actually believe there is any scenario where the "Superman karaoke" scene is anything but stupid? I'm sorry, but that scene makes "Bat Shark Repellent" sound intelligent.

[Sean Walsh]

This may sound like a silly question, but...what's the story about, then?

Pretty much all I knew of the main plot was world-hopping to find the Atom so he can cure a super-virus.

The world-hopping is there, but the virus element is not. Atom's being seeked out......because he was living on another Earth and that was a no-no, but eventually Solomon was talked out of killing him. It was kinda weak without that virus element.

The Holly/Harley/Paradise Island stuff is pretty much intact, as is Mary Marvel's and Jimmy Olsen's sagas.

[The Batman]

Are you seriously claiming that people who think "Superman sings to defeat Darkseid" is well worthy of mocking are the ones at fault because they "just can't grasp certain concepts"? You actually believe there is any scenario where the "Superman karaoke" scene is anything but stupid? I'm sorry, but that scene makes "Bat Shark Repellent" sound intelligent.


Well, "Superman karaoke" or "Superman sings to defeat Darkseid" as descriptions of what happened practically border on obfuscation.

A better, more accurate description might talk about Superman creating a sound wave of perfect vibrational frequency to counter and dissipate Darkseid's energy form. A better, more accurate description might talk about the obvious symbolism of Superman defeating the God of Anti-Life -- Anti-Life of course not being death but rather the lack of spark, creativity, independence, and imagination -- with a burst of independent, creative energy.

That's something that, in the hands of a gifted writer, could be made cool in a few paragraphs of text. That's something that, in the hands of Morrison and Manke, was made cool in a single comic book panel.

[Mat001]

The trial scene and it's fall out was enough to make you care for Nix Uotan, and was also enough to set up the disappearance of Earth-51.
From that you learned that something is coming, a monitor alone isn't enough to stop it, and yet only one monitor sees it as a multiverse threatening problem.

Except from the people who read it and not "Countdown", they didn't understand a damn thing that was going on.

[Thok]

A better, more accurate description might talk about Superman creating a sound wave of perfect vibrational frequency to counter and dissipate Darkseid's energy form.

I should point out that science doesn't work that way. (Just because sound and electro magnetic radiation are post described by wave equations doesn't mean that they interact with each other directly. It's like comparing apples to orange; they're both fruit, but you need to do something to compare them in terms of price or nutritional value.)

One can posit that Superman's singing vibrated the nearby molecules in a way to construct the necessary electro magnetic waves to counter Darkseid, but that's an incredibly complicated feat that requires fairly precise calculation.

(And somebody will point out that I'm ignoring the metaphorical point of view. Which is fine and irrelevant to the above discussion.)

[Jolly Mon]

Well, "Superman karaoke" or "Superman sings to defeat Darkseid" as descriptions of what happened practically border on obfuscation.

He sang, Darkseid went down. No obfuscation, a straight-forward description of the silliest panel I've ever seen dragged out of left field.

A better, more accurate description might talk about Superman creating a sound wave of perfect vibrational frequency to counter and dissipate Darkseid's energy form.

Please, where was any of this mentioned, hinted at, or even remotely winked at in anything written (or drawn) in the comic? Or failing that, any indication that there even was a "sound wave of perfect vibrational frequency to counter and dissipate Darkseid's energy form" and if there was one, how would Superman know of it, and how did he get the brand-new superpower that could reproduce it vocally?

A better, more accurate description might talk about the obvious symbolism of Superman defeating the God of Anti-Life -- Anti-Life of course not being death but rather the lack of spark, creativity, independence, and imagination -- with a burst of independent, creative energy.

So a coming up with a quick limerick would have worked as well?

That's something that, in the hands of a gifted writer, could be made cool in a few paragraphs of text. That's something that, in the hands of Morrison and Manke, was made cool in a single comic book panel.

No, it's still the most embarrassing thing I've ever read in a comic.

[Ian J.N.]

Please, where was any of this mentioned, hinted at, or even remotely winked at in anything written (or drawn) in the comic?

http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?pid=1957&pg=3
http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/images/preview/1957/prv1957_pg4.jpg

[Jolly Mon]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?pid=1957&pg=3
http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/images/preview/1957/prv1957_pg4.jpg

Thanks for the scans. Obviously, I will concede that there was mention of music before the Superman scene in question.

It doesn't change any of my other points that I addressed to the other poster, but it's nice to be reminded that perhaps it didn't come completely out of left field. Maybe shortstop.

[Sean Whitmore]

Thanks for the scans. Obviously, I will concede that there was mention of music before the Superman scene in question.

It doesn't change any of my other points that I addressed to the other poster, but it's nice to be reminded that perhaps it didn't come completely out of left field. Maybe shortstop.

What other points?

You said it didn't make sense and that you didn't like it. The first was wrong and the second is subjective.


SEAN

[The Batman]

He sang, Darkseid went down. No obfuscation, a straight-forward description of the silliest panel I've ever seen dragged out of left field.


Batman finds the Joker with a cellphone. Dave Bowman sits around in a room for the last bit of the movie and then we saw a giant floating baby. Ahab chases a whale for a while.

While technically correct, they're not really describing what's going on are they? "Superman sings to defeat Darkseid" is kinda like that.


Please, where was any of this mentioned, hinted at, or even remotely winked at in anything written (or drawn) in the comic? Or failing that, any indication that there even was a "sound wave of perfect vibrational frequency to counter and dissipate Darkseid's energy form" and if there was one, how would Superman know of it, and how did he get the brand-new superpower that could reproduce it vocally?


Ian J. N. put up the scans. Thanks Ian!

As to how Superman did it? He's Superman, he does these kinds of amazing things everyday. If you need more than that, it's the same sort of precise muscle control that lets him kiss Lois Lane without crushing her face or move about through the world without leaving a trail of destruction.

So a coming up with a quick limerick would have worked as well?

Symbolically I suppose? With what was set up in the story probably not. And it would've been SO much less cool.

No, it's still the most embarrassing thing I've ever read in a comic.


Somehow I really doubt that, but if it's true you are a very, very lucky person.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Except from the people who read it and not "Countdown", they didn't understand a damn thing that was going on.

No, I understood it perfectly - it's all there in the dialogue.

I think those who read Countdown see it as being a lot more integral than it actually was.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Thanks for the scans. Obviously, I will concede that there was mention of music before the Superman scene in question.

There was also, I believe, talk of counteracting vibrational frequencies, which is what the song was - he was counteracting Darkseid, and as he is the anti-life, the vibration to counteract that was a perfect piece of music.


It doesn't change any of my other points that I addressed to the other poster, but it's nice to be reminded that perhaps it didn't come completely out of left field. Maybe shortstop.

What do you mean?
It totally destroys all your points, and very much backs up mine that the people who mock the scene/panel, just didn't grasp the concept.

It wasn't from the left field - it was very much set up in Superman Beyond - which also voids your problem with 'how did Superman know this', and shows that a limerick wouldn't have worked.

[CYOTI]

I should point out that science doesn't work that way. DC Science works that way since the days of the original multiverse and the explaination of vibrational frequencies keeping the multiverse worlds separate. Morrison clearly remembers it and it's not his fault that the same bunch of continuity porn loving fans don't.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Morrison clearly remembers it and it's not his fault that the same bunch of continuity porn loving fans don't.

They scream about him ignoring continuity at some parts, and then ridicule him for having knights on dogs in others... such a fine line for him to walk, let alone dance on and tell an entertaining story on.

[Thok]

DC Science works that way since the days of the original multiverse and the explaination of vibrational frequencies keeping the multiverse worlds separate. Morrison clearly remembers it and it's not his fault that the same bunch of continuity porn loving fans don't.

This comment (and FGJ's follow-up) are almost too ridiculous to respond to.

If you want the Multiverse to be based off of the science fiction of the 1950's, go right ahead. Some of us think there's been some progress in the last 50 years and that fiction should reflect that.

[CYOTI]

Yes almost as ridiculous as interstellar policemen wielding power rings or men that can run at supersonic speeds after being doused with chemicals and lightning. If you have a problem with the authenticity of the science, comics isnt the place for you.

[CBikle]

This comment (and FGJ's follow-up) are almost too ridiculous to respond to.

If you want the Multiverse to be based off of the science fiction of the 1950's, go right ahead. Some of us think there's been some progress in the last 50 years and that fiction should reflect that.

Yeah, but what we think we know keeps changing.

Every day, there's a news story about scientists being astonished or baffled by something going on in deep space, that completely changes or redefines some aspect of what we thought we knew.

In the Ivy University professor's lounge, Ray Palmer probably has spirited discussions with his peers, trying to convince them that dinosaurs did in fact, coexist with cavemen (because he'd seen it with his own eyes) and that it's possible for a human to shrink in size, while maintaining his/her mass.

Let's face it, Earth-Prime scientists don't know squat about how the multiverse works.

[Sean Whitmore]

This comment (and FGJ's follow-up) are almost too ridiculous to respond to.

If you want the Multiverse to be based off of the science fiction of the 1950's, go right ahead. Some of us think there's been some progress in the last 50 years and that fiction should reflect that.

That's fair. You have fun with that, I'm gonna have fun with the flying people in tights and talking monkeys and time travel.


SEAN

[CBikle]

In an established comic book shared-universe, if the writer wants to use current scientific theory in his stories, it should only be used to "prove" already established silver-age rubber science, rather than "disprove" it.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

This comment (and FGJ's follow-up) are almost too ridiculous to respond to.

I think whinging about a creator not following continuity and also for following continuity is pretty ridiculous, but I've seen it here, in the same post.

If you want the Multiverse to be based off of the science fiction of the 1950's, go right ahead. Some of us think there's been some progress in the last 50 years and that fiction should reflect that.

The thing is, people went ape at him stating the fourth world is over, we're now in the Fifth world... so at what point is change allowed to creep in?

You don't want 50's continuity in there, but do want 60's?
Where's the cut off?

Also, as we're seeing in this thread, some people don't seem to be able to handle narrative devices or concepts that are modern... again, where should the line be drawn?

[Thok]

In an established comic book shared-universe, if the writer wants to use current scientific theory in his stories, it should only be used to "prove" already established silver-age rubber science, rather than "disprove" it.

Or, the writer can just ignore explanations and treat the subject as soft science fiction instead of hard science fiction. But the whole Superman sings at Darkseid falls on the hard side of science fiction (by attempting to describe a precise mechanic to a device), and can be judged by those standards and fails pretty badly as hard SF.

(Stuff like GL rings generally are hand waved as "super-advanced technology", and thus generally tend to be soft SF. And even GL rings can be mostly modeled by a nano-sized super computer+a battery to store charge+a tweaked variant of holographic projection. The Flash's origin is always treated as soft-SF.)

[CYOTI]

Providing an in-universe explaination based on prior DC continuity has suddenly become an example of "hard SF".

[Sean Whitmore]

Personally, just the fact that Superman appears in a story should suggest that anything in the vicinity of "hard SF" is merely a headfake.


SEAN

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Or, the writer can just ignore explanations and treat the subject as soft science fiction instead of hard science fiction. But the whole Superman sings at Darkseid falls on the hard side of science fiction (by attempting to describe a precise mechanic to a device), and can be judged by those standards and fails pretty badly as hard SF.

(Stuff like GL rings generally are hand waved as "super-advanced technology", and thus generally tend to be soft SF. And even GL rings can be mostly modeled by a nano-sized super computer+a battery to store charge+a tweaked variant of holographic projection. The Flash's origin is always treated as soft-SF.)

So the things you like are OK and pass, but the element you don't like is a failure?

How is setting up that the flying super strong guy needs to sing at the guy who is the ultimate evil hard science fiction, yet explanation on the GL rings running off of willpower, with the side effect of self doubt stopping them, not?

It's fine if you don't like it, but when you say there are standards, that implies objective one's, so it's best not to follow that up by showing how subjective they are.

[Thok]

How is setting up that the flying super strong guy needs to sing at the guy who is the ultimate evil hard science fiction, yet explanation on the GL rings running off of willpower, with the side effect of self doubt stopping them, not?

It's fine if you don't like it, but when you say there are standards, that implies objective one's, so it's best not to follow that up by showing how subjective they are.

I have a fairly objective standard: an attempt at an explanation.

The ability to turn willpower into energy has always been treated as a black box and nobody has tried to force an explanation on how it works, other than the Guardians being really smart.

Morrison made a clear attempt at an explanation of the physics of the situation in the Superman sings at Darkseid scene.

(Basically, it's the difference between the Force as a mystical thing that's just there in Star Wars, and the attempt to add in mitochlorians as some sort of genetic explanation in Episode 1.)

Without an explanation, we can reasonably say "We don't know enough to disprove this". Once the explanation is there, it better be reasonable.

[Jolly Mon]

What other points?

You said it didn't make sense and that you didn't like it. The first was wrong and the second is subjective.


SEAN

The rest of my points: "Or failing that, any indication that there even was a "sound wave of perfect vibrational frequency to counter and dissipate Darkseid's energy form" and if there was one, how would Superman know of it, and how did he get the brand-new superpower that could reproduce it vocally?"

[The Batman]

Addressed, addressed, and addressed.

[Jolly Mon]

There was also, I believe, talk of counteracting vibrational frequencies, which is what the song was - he was counteracting Darkseid, and as he is the anti-life, the vibration to counteract that was a perfect piece of music.

I'd like to see a scan of that, please.

What do you mean?
It totally destroys all your points, and very much backs up mine that the people who mock the scene/panel, just didn't grasp the concept..

I grasped it fine. Superman sang, using a previously unknown ability to produce "a perfect piece of music", defeated Darkseid, through his previously unknown vulnerability to "vibrational frequencies". Anything else that was pulled out of someone's butt that I missed?

By the way, congratulations on your ability to "grasp the concept". And aren't Emperor's clothes particularly attractive today?

It wasn't from the left field - it was very much set up in Superman Beyond - which also voids your problem with 'how did Superman know this', and shows that a limerick wouldn't have worked.

So your contention is that, when I already despise the alleged story so much that I want my money back (or to build a bonfire), I should have spent EVEN MORE MONEY in the hope that any of it will make sense? Nope.

[The Batman]

Yes, if only Morrison had mentioned something somewhere in the story about sound and vibration and the Multiverse and how counter-vibrations that can cancel them out.

If only he'd done that. (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/File:Final_Crisis_7_Superman_shatters_Darkseid.JPG )

[Thok]

Yes, if only Morrison had mentioned something somewhere in the story about sound and vibration and the Multiverse and how counter-vibrations that can cancel them out.

If only he'd done that. (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/File:Final_Crisis_7_Superman_shatters_Darkseid.JPG )

Everything just numbers. I can convert ambient heat to intelligence, because they're just numbers on a scale.

[The Batman]

How does Superman fly? They started explaining it with sunlight and solar battery super-cells but they never finished.

I just think that if we're going to complain about comic book science we should take things in order and that problem comes up well before Final Crisis #7.

[Thok]

How does Superman fly? They started explaining it with sunlight and solar battery super-cells but they never finished.

I just think that if we're going to complain about comic book science we should take things in order and that problem comes up well before Final Crisis #7.

TACTILE TELEKINESIS!

(aka, it's a big black box.)

[The Batman]

So why can't the precise physics that transforms the vibrations of whatever is vibrating within the multiverse into a sound that Supermen can hear also be a similar black box?

[T Hedge Coke]

Everything just numbers. I can convert ambient heat to intelligence, because they're just numbers on a scale.

But we know the DCU multiverse is made up of physical vibrations. Literal vibrations. Like sound, like movement. That's how Flashes get across.

No, it's not great and solid and provable science, but it is how the DCU multiverse thing works and the application in FC is consistent with those fictional rules of that fictional world of a fictional multiverse full of fictional flying solar batteries with haircuts and two eyes, will-powered jewelry, and a moral barometer with a rear appreciated by many, Richie "Who's the Goddammed Batman, Now, Punk?" Grayson.

And in a story about the power of story, the meanings behind Darkseid's distaste for (and weakness in the face of) music and song is even more powerful than the literal explication. As anyone who has ever sung for religious, celebratory, or coping purposes should understand.

[Thok]

But we know the DCU multiverse is made up of physical vibrations. Literal vibrations. Like sound, like movement. That's how Flashes get across.

Actually, let's use Superman Beyond to try to justify this (and point out how the scene should have been explained.)

In Superman Beyond, the Mulitverse is clearly not the original three dimensions, but includes an extra dimension. Morrison actually takes the time to point out that Superman can view these extradimension with his super-senses.

So Superman isn't really "singing" in the normal sense, but he's creating the four dimensional version of a song, a skill that he's learned he's capable of because of his recent trip through the multiverse in Superman Beyond. (In this sense it's not just a song, but rather a one dimensional simultaneous performance of songs, each one to cancel a different Multiversal element of Darkseid; whatever song you hear with your three dimensional ears reflects what Darkseid represented to you, so Superman is singing directly to you.)

OK, that explanation I can buy [it still begs the question of why a song can cancel a specific representation of Darkseid as it never has before, but whatever, we can chalk that up to his weakened form.] It also sounds better than what Morrison actually wrote on the page. Don't you wish Morrison had actually bothered to explain that at all?

[CBikle]

Actually, let's use Superman Beyond to try to justify this (and point out how the scene should have been explained.)

In Superman Beyond, the Mulitverse is clearly not the original three dimensions, but includes an extra dimension. Morrison actually takes the time to point out that Superman can view these extradimension with his super-senses.

So Superman isn't really "singing" in the normal sense, but he's creating the four dimensional version of a song, a skill that he's learned he's capable of because of his recent trip through the multiverse in Superman Beyond. (In this sense it's not just a song, but rather a one dimensional simultaneous performance of songs, each one to cancel a different Multiversal element of Darkseid; whatever song you hear with your three dimensional ears reflects what Darkseid represented to you, so Superman is singing directly to you.)

OK, that explanation I can buy [it still begs the question of why a song can cancel a specific representation of Darkseid as it never has before, but whatever, we can chalk that up to his weakened form.] It also sounds better than what Morrison actually wrote on the page. Don't you wish Morrison had actually bothered to explain that at all?

I disagree; what you just posted above wasn't really entertaining to read and long-winded exposition like that doesn't really work in a comic (When Mr. Fantastic starts to rattle on in super-scientific gobbledygook, he'll usually get interrupted by the Thing, who'll say "OK, enough big brain, we get it !").

For most comics, the panel-format, just doesn't lend itself to the exhaustive breaking down of complex theories into laymen's terms.

[Thok]

"My recent travels across the multiverse have shown me that everything is just 4 dimensional vibrations."

"I've learned how to hear, and create those vibrations. They're like a host of orchestras playing together, and I know how to counter yours."

Superman sings.

[Not much different than what Morrison wrote, but emphasizing the 4 dimensionalness in a correct way.]

[The Batman]

Yeah, it's so not all that much different from what Morrison wrote that complaining about it comes across as a weird nitpick.

I men, we already knew from other parts of the story that Superman can sense the vibrations of the Multiverse, so you're complaining about Morrison's lack of specificity regarding the number of dimensions that are vibrating.

[Thok]

Yeah, it's so not all that much different from what Morrison wrote that complaining about it comes across as a weird nitpick.

I men, we already knew from other parts of the story that Superman can sense the vibrations of the Multiverse, so you're complaining about Morrison's lack of specificity regarding the number of dimensions that are vibrating.

Singing is implicitly a three dimensional act unless otherwise stated. As much as anything, the main strength of my explanation over Morrison's is pointing out that Superman can create four dimensional vibrations by singing. (I should point out that my last comment represents a change in my point of view: the DC science is not so much bad, but poorly explained.)

Moreover, the stuff that Morrison has said in interviews suggests that he hasn't been taking the four dimension point of view properly (specifically his answer to "What song do you hear?", which I think my longer explanation does a better job of handling, even if we get to the same point.)

[The Batman]

Is singing still an implicitly simple, three-dimensional act when it's Superman doing it to destroy an Evil God and only after considering the vibrational qualities of the Multiverse itself?

Or is that enough to imply that maybe something a little more was going on? It was for me.

This still feels like nitpicking. Sorry.

[Thok]

Is singing still an implicitly simple, three-dimensional act when it's Superman doing it to destroy an Evil God and only after considering the vibrational qualities of the Multiverse itself?

Or is that enough to imply that maybe something a little more was going on? It was for me.

There's a whole bunch of three dimensional imagery in the final scene: Morrison describes the multiverse as an orchestra, not a host of orchestras, and the target is an Evil God who has been working his latest plan mostly in Earth-1 and not all of the Multiverse. (The effects on the Multiverse, while there, are very peripheral.) The purpose of the Miracle Machine is to rebuild Earth-1, not the multiverse.

Even his answer to "What song did Superman sing?" suggests that he thinks that Superman sang a three dimensional song.

[The Batman]

I'm not quite sure how a host of orchestras is any more fourth dimensional than an orchestra when looking for a metaphor for the Multiverse. I'm also not quite sure how a greater focus on the multiversal consequences of Darkseid's plan would've been any more fourth dimensional either. I'm also kind of wondering exactly what kind of four dimensional imagery you'd have needed Morrison to include.

And still, all this attention on the lack of explicit discussion of a fourth dimension by Morrison feels like nitpicking.

Oh, and a nitpick of my own: The purpose of the Miracle Machine was to give the story, and everyone in it, a happy ending. It wasn't just to rebuild Earth-1 or New Earth or whatever they're calling it now.

[The Batman]

Now, I'm also wondering why four dimensions suddenly makes this work? Why not the eleven dimensions that String Theory predicts?

[Thok]

Now, I'm also wondering why four dimensions suddenly makes this work? Why not the eleven dimensions that String Theory predicts?

Because the DCU Multiverse isn't the real Multiverse. (I've been neglecting that issue, because at some point I do need to throw in some suspension of disbelief and story telling concerns.) Or because one only needs to travel along those dimensions to reach everywhere. Or because it really should be 11 dimensions, but I'm using four because that's the number Morrison seems to be implying with his description of the multiverse.

Also, there are different scientific concepts of the Multiverse: the one that arises from String Theory is parallel to the mulitverse arising from the many worlds concept of quantum mechanics, and that one doesn't even have a well defined dimension. (The latter seems to be what happens when Booster Gold affects the time stream.)

[The Batman]

Okay well, good luck. Sorry Morrison not mentioning the specific number of dimensions things were vibrating in ruined things for you.

[Mat001]

Because the DCU Multiverse isn't the real Multiverse. (I've been neglecting that issue, because at some point I do need to throw in some suspension of disbelief and story telling concerns.) Or because one only needs to travel along those dimensions to reach everywhere. Or because it really should be 11 dimensions, but I'm using four because that's the number Morrison seems to be implying with his description of the multiverse.

Also, there are different scientific concepts of the Multiverse: the one that arises from String Theory is parallel to the mulitverse arising from the many worlds concept of quantum mechanics, and that one doesn't even have a well defined dimension. (The latter seems to be what happens when Booster Gold affects the time stream.)

Well, way back at the end of "52", Rip Hunter mentioned the Megaverse. So the 11 dimensions would include the worlds not yet seen in the Megaverse. That might be what comes out of "Multiversity".

[FeminineMystique]

Wow, a Final Crisis novelization would just miss the point on a lot of fronts (and, I'm sure, be nowhere near as adventurous as the techniques in the comic were). I hadn't even consider the possibility.

I understand the possibility of a Countdown novelization, I just fail to see the point. Was it anywhere near enough of a seller? Can prose bring something other than a more syncretizing vision to the story?

Yes. QUALITY:biggrin:

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I have a fairly objective standard: an attempt at an explanation.

The ability to turn willpower into energy has always been treated as a black box and nobody has tried to force an explanation on how it works, other than the Guardians being really smart.

Morrison made a clear attempt at an explanation of the physics of the situation in the Superman sings at Darkseid scene.

(Basically, it's the difference between the Force as a mystical thing that's just there in Star Wars, and the attempt to add in mitochlorians as some sort of genetic explanation in Episode 1.)

Without an explanation, we can reasonably say "We don't know enough to disprove this". Once the explanation is there, it better be reasonable.

How did he not do that right?
He said producing the right vibrations will counteract Darkseid... Darkseid represents non-existence/death/nothing... so the vibration to take him out was the same as a beautiful song.

It worked with the stories logic, a nod was made to explaining it, it played out.
I really don't see how it's a fail, but the ring being powered by willpower (specifically the power to overcome great fear) is a pass.
It's just using a slightly higher level of pseudo-science.


So your contention is that, when I already despise the alleged story so much that I want my money back (or to build a bonfire), I should have spent EVEN MORE MONEY in the hope that any of it will make sense? Nope.

You're the one who came in, full of bluster, that it wasn't set up and came out of no where... so don't get crabby at me because you didn't read the parts that set it up.
If you don't like the series, then by all means, don't like the series, but you should really keep in mind that you haven't read the whole thing when you complain that parts don't make sense, and stuff came out of nowhere.
(And yes, technically 'Superman Beyond' was a separate mini, but they made it pretty clear you needed to read it to follow along).

So..."You actually believe there is any scenario where the "Superman karaoke" scene is anything but stupid?"
....Yes, I do, because that's not what he did, and an in-story explanation was given as to why the vibrations took the form of music.

And... "Please, where was any of this mentioned, hinted at, or even remotely winked at in anything written (or drawn) in the comic? Or failing that, any indication that there even was a "sound wave of perfect vibrational frequency to counter and dissipate Darkseid's energy form" and if there was one, how would Superman know of it, and how did he get the brand-new superpower that could reproduce it vocally?"
... Again yes, we've shown you.

Right, so it wasn't stupid, and it was set up.
Again, if you hate the series, have fun hating it, but you're misguided in hating it for that scene (and also misguided in lashing out at us because you didn't enjoy it, and so didn't buy the issue where it was set up).


OK, that explanation I can buy [it still begs the question of why a song can cancel a specific representation of Darkseid as it never has before, but whatever, we can chalk that up to his weakened form.] It also sounds better than what Morrison actually wrote on the page.

So now he should have explained it more rather than less?
G-Mozz just can't win!

I believe the song could take him out as it's the opposite of Darkseid, a song is full of life and colour, whilst he isn't. Life Vs Anti-Life.
(It's such a Kirby styled representation of the whole Fourth World set up, that I'm surprised it hasn't been done before).

Don't you wish Morrison had actually bothered to explain that at all?

We got it from what he wrote on the page!
He didn't need to do more, it was all there!

This is why I originally stated 'the only people who are mocking it are those who can't grasp the concept'.
I know some people get really irked by 'Morrison fans' saying things like that, but more often than not, it's true!

Yeah, it's so not all that much different from what Morrison wrote that complaining about it comes across as a weird nitpick.


Originally he felt there was too much of an attempt at an explanation, and so it failed as pseudo-science because it became an attempt at real science.
But now he agrees that as pseudo-science it works perfectly, and so more detail should be added to flesh it out.

[The Batman]

Originally he felt there was too much of an attempt at an explanation, and so it failed as pseudo-science because it became an attempt at real science.
But now he agrees that as pseudo-science it works perfectly, and so more detail should be added to flesh it out.

Funky, you had it right when you said the G-Mozz just can't win.

[Thok]

I believe the song could take him out as it's the opposite of Darkseid, a song is full of life and colour, whilst he isn't. Life Vs Anti-Life.
(It's such a Kirby styled representation of the whole Fourth World set up, that I'm surprised it hasn't been done before).

I would suspect that if Darkseid was anywhere near full strength, he could corrupt the song into something static and lifeless by manipulating the person singing it.

Also, Pied Piper did something similar by destroying Apocalips with the power of Queen in Countdown (again in a situation where all of the New Gods had been moved off of the field of play.)

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I would suspect that if Darkseid was anywhere near full strength, he could corrupt the song into something static and lifeless by manipulating the person singing it.


Well, if he wasn't usually beyond anyone's power to take down, he wouldn't be much of a threat!
It would've all been over in one issue!

(Yes, I said that just to get the tears from everyone who hated Final Crisis and wished it was only one issue).