Secret Six...Cry for Justice...Kingdom Come?

[brettc1]

If you have not read Cry for Justice 3 and intend to pick it up, read no further til you do.

I love the way Gail mixes great story with social commentary, the latest Secret Six being a prime example. Meanwhile, over in Cry for Justice, Ray Palmer and Hal Jordan are using torture to extract information from prisoners. All in all, we are pretty far from the bright and sunny DCU that was supposed to follow in the wake of Infinite Crisis.

Here is some discussion going on over at the DC WW boards - its pretty thought provoking, so I thought I would repost it here for other folks opinions.

This is a story where the superheroes have to deal with the consequences of someone close to them being murdered. For them to continue to give supervillsins involved the patty cakes treatment would not make any sense.

Even Superman and Diana are not above beating up a supervillain to get needed info if their respective lived ones are in danger.

This statement serves to highlight another facet of the story - that things are quickly devolving into a feud between heroes and villains. Rather than the fight between good and evil, the situation is now turning into the fight between evil and less evil.

After all, the heroes are not and should not be a law unto themselves. What are they going to do with these villains when they catch them? This is all starting to look more and more like Kingdom Come ...and I daresay most of us know how that ended :rolleyes:


So what do folks think? Is Hal right? Or are things just getting more and more out of control? How far is it from the US sending meta prisoners to Devil's Island to using weapons of mass destruction to prevent a meta war from engulfing the planet?

[BlackCanaryGuy]

I'll preface this by saying Robinson's Starman is one of my favorite comic book runs ever. His talent, as exhibited there, astounds me.

That said, I'm not liking Cry for Justice at all. After finishing the first three issues my estimation of the work was even more cutting, but I'll just leave it at that.

It exhibits some serious tone-deafness about the characters (Huntress, Hal and Lady Blackhawk? Really? The Atom shrinking down and torturing a villain after the shock and disbelief that he feel when his ex-wife did the same thing to Sue Dibney? Really?). But as if that weren't problematic enough, over these first few issues the story revolves around dialogue that seems so sophomoric it doesn't build character or my interest as a reader. Wait let me guess, Supergirl wants...justice.

Most egregiously, it's a book that so desperately want to be "adult" that it apes maturity without any of its hallmarks. These characters don't seem to struggle at all with the major thematic elements of the book, including 1.) their loss 2.) their choices and 3.) the consequences of their actions. We're getting three issues of set-up where there's little real development, only a derailment of previous characterizations.

I won't even get into my feelings about killing the three Global Guardians as a way of making Prometheus a menacing figure again. It was unnecessary, unmotivated, and did nothing to re-establish the character as far as I'm concerned.

It kills me because I was really excited for this series. If I didn't know better, I would suspect Robinson had been replaced by a Skrull.

[Free-Man]

I'll preface this by saying Robinson's Starman is one of my favorite comic book runs ever. His talent, as exhibited there, astounds me.

That said, I'm not liking Cry for Justice at all. After finishing the first three issues my estimation of the work was even more cutting, but I'll just leave it at that.

It exhibits some serious tone-deafness about the characters (Huntress, Hal and Lady Blackhawk? Really? The Atom shrinking down and torturing a villain after the shock and disbelief that he feel when his ex-wife did the same thing to Sue Dibney? Really?). But as if that weren't problematic enough, over these first few issues the story revolves around dialogue that seems so sophomoric it doesn't build character or my interest as a reader. Wait let me guess, Supergirl wants...justice.

Most egregiously, it's a book that so desperately want to be "adult" that it apes maturity without any of its hallmarks. These characters don't seem to struggle at all with the major thematic elements of the book, including 1.) their loss 2.) their choices and 3.) the consequences of their actions. We're getting three issues of set-up where there's little real development, only a derailment of previous characterizations.

I won't even get into my feelings about killing the three Global Guardians as a way of making Prometheus a menacing figure again. It was unnecessary, unmotivated, and did nothing to re-establish the character as far as I'm concerned.

It kills me because I was really excited for this series. If I didn't know better, I would suspect Robinson had been replaced by a Skrull.

Totally agree. And the killing of the Guardians seemed totally unneccesary, and kinda shocking coming from Robinson. Let's not forget, he did a storyline where Nash murdered the JLE in the hopes that it would raise her profile, and ended up being mocked and derided by other villains because they JLE was made up of C-list heroes very few people cared about. For him to write that and then have Prometheus seem bad@ss by killing the GGs seems out of character for Robinson.

And the whole torture thing has been handled poorly. If it were done well, the whole idea of heroes brutalizing villains and the psychological effects it creates could be interesting. But instead, Robinson is doing it 24-style, with no emotional consequences. IT's just shoddy writing.

[FeminineMystique]

Totally agree. And the killing of the Guardians seemed totally unneccesary, and kinda shocking coming from Robinson. Let's not forget, he did a storyline where Nash murdered the JLE in the hopes that it would raise her profile, and ended up being mocked and derided by other villains because they JLE was made up of C-list heroes very few people cared about. For him to write that and then have Prometheus seem bad@ss by killing the GGs seems out of character for Robinson.

And the whole torture thing has been handled poorly. If it were done well, the whole idea of heroes brutalizing villains and the psychological effects it creates could be interesting. But instead, Robinson is doing it 24-style, with no emotional consequences. IT's just shoddy writing.

Bingo. There's nothing wrong with heroes using torture, if it's used to create some interesting debates/conflicts, both in the comics and from the fans. But the scene was just so matter of fact and poorly done, even people IN FAVOUR of legalised torture would probably say it was a bad idea

[Mark_S]

Also a lot of this should have been covered after Identity Crisis where it was revealed that Zatanna and a group of heroes were grabbing villains and basically doing some brain surgery on them to change them/neutralize them. Z was the only one who ever really dealt with that, in a great issue with her, Bruce and the Joker and some interesting stuff with Catwoman (and recently thrown into her face by Ivy in Gotham Sirens), the rest of the mind wipe crowd skipped away from that mud from what I think is just as bad as torture.
Heroes pushed into the dark side by circumstances, by their own faults and fear (and I think Cry for Justice is a lot about scared heroes) can be interesting, but using the storyline to beat on the whole subject of rendition/torture lacks a lot of subtlety and strikes me more of an angry writer venting his feelings over the matter.

Mark_S

[JKCarrier]

20 years later, and "Watchmen-envy" is still rampant. Writers think they can be the next Alan Moore just by inserting more "realism" (i.e., sleaze) into their superhero stories. And thanks to the "shared universe", when a writer drops one of these turds, everyone who comes after him has to deal with it. The mindwipe thing gets brought up every single time Zatanna appears. Snapping necks has become Wonder Woman's defining characteristic. Ray Palmer will be Mr. Tiptoe-Through-The-Cerebellum for years to come. It took a decade of penance and massive hand-waving to get Hal Jordan back to some kind of viable status quo. I wish the writers and editors would spend five minutes thinking about the consequences of this stuff before indulging their Dirty Harry fantasies.

[BlackCanaryGuy]

Also a lot of this should have been covered after Identity Crisis where it was revealed that Zatanna and a group of heroes were grabbing villains and basically doing some brain surgery on them to change them/neutralize them. Z was the only one who ever really dealt with that, in a great issue with her, Bruce and the Joker and some interesting stuff with Catwoman (and recently thrown into her face by Ivy in Gotham Sirens), the rest of the mind wipe crowd skipped away from that mud from what I think is just as bad as torture.
Heroes pushed into the dark side by circumstances, by their own faults and fear (and I think Cry for Justice is a lot about scared heroes) can be interesting, but using the storyline to beat on the whole subject of rendition/torture lacks a lot of subtlety and strikes me more of an angry writer venting his feelings over the matter.

Mark_S

I think you make two really good points here:

First, that some of these issues should have been dealt with more adroitly in Identity Crisis, which has its own host of problems as far as I'm concerned. I like a lot of Meltzer's stories, and I'm not obsessed with continuity, but I do like clearly identifiable characters that exhibit some general consistency across time. I was all for raising moral/political issues in Identity Crisis, but I don't think Meltzer really had a clear handle on the positions of the individual characters.

Second, that the underlying issue here is fear, and, more specifically, the relationship between fear and justice or fear and the law. If the comic book I were reading were more clearly exploring that with care, I might be enjoying it more.

I think a comic book is a fine place for writers to explore is or her feelings about rendition and torture, but I don't think this is a comic book that is trying to wrestle with that issue specifically. Torture (not so much rendition) may be one of the "adult" plot elements it incorporates, but it's just one of many in a stable of violent images meant to achieve some broader and much vaguer goal. Perhaps if it were to hone in more clearly on these ideas, it would feel like a more focused story.

[Free-Man]

I think you make two really good points here:

First, that some of these issues should have been dealt with more adroitly in Identity Crisis, which has its own host of problems as far as I'm concerned. I like a lot of Meltzer's stories, and I'm not obsessed with continuity, but I do like clearly identifiable characters that exhibit some general consistency across time. I was all for raising moral/political issues in Identity Crisis, but I don't think Meltzer really had a clear handle on the positions of the individual characters.

Second, that the underlying issue here is fear, and, more specifically, the relationship between fear and justice or fear and the law. If the comic book I were reading were more clearly exploring that with care, I might be enjoying it more.

I think a comic book is a fine place for writers to explore is or her feelings about rendition and torture, but I don't think this is a comic book that is trying to wrestle with that issue specifically. Torture (not so much rendition) may be one of the "adult" plot elements it incorporates, but it's just one of many in a stable of violent images meant to achieve some broader and much vaguer goal. Perhaps if it were to hone in more clearly on these ideas, it would feel like a more focused story.

Well, ultimately, one of my biggest problems with the attempts at crafting complex moral issues for heroes is that it rarely sticks. Zatanna, as some posters have mentioned, has her actions in IC brought up quite a bit. It was a big factor in Grant Morrison's 7 Soldiers: Zatanna mini, and an issue of Catwoman dealt with Selina nearly killing Zee in retaliation for her mindwipe.

But Black Canary and the other heroes involved in the mindwipes got off scott free with their actions never being brought up again. While leading the JLA, Canary still felt that she had the right to bash Hal and Ollie's decision for form their new JLA, despite her having been involved in the same sorts of shady dealings Hal and his team are doing.

[BlackCanaryGuy]

But Black Canary and the other heroes involved in the mindwipes got off scott free with their actions never being brought up again. While leading the JLA, Canary still felt that she had the right to bash Hal and Ollie's decision for form their new JLA, despite her having been involved in the same sorts of shady dealings Hal and his team are doing.

My sense was that Dinah was upset about the way they were essentially undermining her authority, not necessarily what they were going to do in their new version of the League. Did she really have a sense of how far over the line they would go? I can't quite remember right now.

You're right, though, that there seem to have been no real repercussions for anyone but Zatanna. I think it was out of character for a character like Dinah to have been involved in the first place, which (I suspect) is one of the reasons so many subsequent writers chose not to deal with it head-on.

[Free-Man]

My sense was that Dinah was upset about the way they were essentially undermining her authority, not necessarily what they were going to do in their new version of the League. Did she really have a sense of how far over the line they would go? I can't quite remember right now.

You're right, though, that there seem to have been no real repercussions for anyone but Zatanna. I think it was out of character for a character like Dinah to have been involved in the first place, which (I suspect) is one of the reasons so many subsequent writers chose not to deal with it head-on.

I don't think she knew about the brain torture or anything, but Hal made it very clear that he was "taking the fight to the villains."

But another issue I have with the "mature" attempt at DC heroes is that it just isn't all that serious to begin with. So Prometheus wiped out the Global Guardians? It sucked, but big deal. They were C-listers anyways.

In the context of the story, it's supposed to make him seem like a threat and how "kewl" he is. Cool,he killed Gloss. Let's see him kill Superman. Or the Flash. Or Wonder Woman.

Won't happen. It just won't. I'm guessing we'll see a member of Robinson's league die before the end of the story, but even then you can bet it will be on of the smaller guys. No way is DC letting Robinson kill GA, Hal, Batwoman, Shazam, or Supergirl. So we're probably gonna be shown how dangerous and serious the situation is by killing off some C-lister like Starman or something. Big whoop.:rolleyes:

[Mark_S]

It looses in the story though, because when you kill a c-lister it's a bit like when a red shirt on Star Trek dies, he was put there to die. Emotional impact is zero.

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

20 years later, and "Watchmen-envy" is still rampant. Writers think they can be the next Alan Moore just by inserting more "realism" (i.e., sleaze) into their superhero stories. And thanks to the "shared universe", when a writer drops one of these turds, everyone who comes after him has to deal with it. The mindwipe thing gets brought up every single time Zatanna appears. Snapping necks has become Wonder Woman's defining characteristic. Ray Palmer will be Mr. Tiptoe-Through-The-Cerebellum for years to come. It took a decade of penance and massive hand-waving to get Hal Jordan back to some kind of viable status quo. I wish the writers and editors would spend five minutes thinking about the consequences of this stuff before indulging their Dirty Harry fantasies.

That hasn't been the trend. Marvel is far worse than DC on it but DC has it's problems there too, Mary Marvel comes to mind. The idea of this sort of series is the bring the decay of the heroes moral along gradually and then have them cross a line and then have them realize it and deal with why they crossed it. But when you think of the characters involved... well that is the main problem here. I can imagine Supergirl being like this based on what I've read of her, but Ray? Hal? Ollie? Not this quick, not this completely.

Mark_S

[nightforce]

As everyone knows by now I am all for the Villains being tortured. I say you want to kill planets and innocents? Then you should feel pain right back and/or death.


To me the term "HEROES" is so grade school "Good is White" "Bad is Black". You can't stop evil by playing pattycake with them. To me it is that simple.

Nip that shit in the bud I say

[cockrumfan]

I think you have to consider the grief aspect of this, as well. None of these characters are thinking clearly because they've all just lost someone important. That may be a point Robinson is trying to make, or it just be something that's there. Hal, being a military guy is going to be more likely to think this way anyway, which might be why Parallax could get him to start down that road. I think, of all people, Robinson has proven that heroes can't sink down to the villains level, or else they become what they were fighting. The series isn't even half way finished yet, so I think we'll see this dealt with soon.

[Free-Man]

I think you have to consider the grief aspect of this, as well. None of these characters are thinking clearly because they've all just lost someone important. That may be a point Robinson is trying to make, or it just be something that's there. Hal, being a military guy is going to be more likely to think this way anyway, which might be why Parallax could get him to start down that road. I think, of all people, Robinson has proven that heroes can't sink down to the villains level, or else they become what they were fighting. The series isn't even half way finished yet, so I think we'll see this dealt with soon.

I'd hope so. And let's hope the horrible pacing and dialgue will also be dealt with.

[cockrumfan]

I'd hope so. And let's hope the horrible pacing and dialgue will also be dealt with.

Robinson's one of the writers that has earned my trust, so I think it'll be alright.

[brettc1]

As everyone knows by now I am all for the Villains being tortured. I say you want to kill planets and innocents? Then you should feel pain right back and/or death.


To me the term "HEROES" is so grade school "Good is White" "Bad is Black". You can't stop evil by playing pattycake with them. To me it is that simple.

Nip that shit in the bud I say

You may be right - but non of these heroes are even deputized law enforcement officers and yet they are grabbing people and torturing them. To whom are Hal and his team accountable? And how do they possibly believe the public will support them in the long term if this continues?

Hal says he wants justice, but it really seems more like he is after revenge. They hurt us, we hurt them. Sounds awful like revenge to me.

[cockrumfan]

You may be right - but non of these heroes are even deputized law enforcement officers and yet they are grabbing people and torturing them. To whom are Hal and his team accountable? And how do they possibly believe the public will support them in the long term if this continues?

Hal says he wants justice, but it really seems more like he is after revenge. They hurt us, we hurt them. Sounds awful like revenge to me.
But then you dive into the question of whether or not humanity can truly enact justice. How can anyone truly enact justice? Even when the law is involved, often justice isn't achieved for victims. Anything built by humanity will fail like humanity, so we have to determine whether true justice is achievable, or even comprehensible to humanity.

[Retro315]

20 years later, and "Watchmen-envy" is still rampant. Writers think they can be the next Alan Moore just by inserting more "realism" (i.e., sleaze) into their superhero stories. And thanks to the "shared universe", when a writer drops one of these turds, everyone who comes after him has to deal with it. The mindwipe thing gets brought up every single time Zatanna appears. Snapping necks has become Wonder Woman's defining characteristic. Ray Palmer will be Mr. Tiptoe-Through-The-Cerebellum for years to come. It took a decade of penance and massive hand-waving to get Hal Jordan back to some kind of viable status quo. I wish the writers and editors would spend five minutes thinking about the consequences of this stuff before indulging their Dirty Harry fantasies.

Could be worse. Could be more Frank Miller Jingoism.

[brettc1]

But then you dive into the question of whether or not humanity can truly enact justice. How can anyone truly enact justice? Even when the law is involved, often justice isn't achieved for victims. Anything built by humanity will fail like humanity, so we have to determine whether true justice is achievable, or even comprehensible to humanity.

Any human made justice system will be flawed, its true. But what I think is equally true is that a system of justice overseen by society collectively will almost always serve better than one justice dispensed by a single powerful individual, or a small select group, that is answerable to none.

[Free-Man]

Any human made justice system will be flawed, its true. But what I think is equally true is that a system of justice overseen by society collectively will almost always serve better than one justice dispensed by a single powerful individual, or a small select group, that is answerable to none.

Right on. I don't care how heroic Hal Jordan is. He's human. The idea of Hal "Parrallax" Jordan leading up a rogue JLA team who answer to no one is actually pretty frightening.

[brettc1]

And does it strike anyone else as odd that Supergirl is just standing there watching this happen?

Forget about the fact that she can stand to watch a man screaming in agony and yet she burst into tears when Hal used his mean voice on her [blech] - does that shield on her costume mean nothing!?