Justice by Krueger and Ross

[Vigilante Man]

I was thinking about picking this one up. Is it a good read?

[Gef]

I loved it, but then I'm a big Alex Ross fan.

Actually Doug Braithwaite did the pencils on it. I've talked to Doug about it and have examined a few of his original pencilled pages, and they are amazing. That's why he's my favourite artist!

Storywise it's a mish-mash of Silver Age stuff. Not bad, not amazing, but very pretty and quite entertaining.

[superchick]

Best Justice League story ever. Its got everything and the kitchen sink

[carabas]

It's crap.

Starts out vaguely boring but promising, superfriends done seriously, the nostalgia factor amped through the roof, and then later descends in a hyper-convoluted quagmire of pontles plotstrands while the main story gets forgotten.

Pretty art though.

[dumbstruck]

superfriends done seriously,

This is exactly what it is. I liked it though.

[Mainline]

Storywise, it lacks emotional resonance or depth barring nostalgia... the rest is going through the motions for various action and heavy-handed character setups. The art isn't pure Alex Ross either which is- in my opinion- noticeable.

It's a mini-series worth taking note of because of the Superfriends perspective and Ross contribution to the art, but it's not one of those instant-classics, must-read/buy, universal acclaim. Worth a browse.

[Hullababy]

I have volume 1 and 2 in hc and the third one in normal paperback format. The art is absolutely gorgeous and I loved the story. This was one of the first hardcovers I ever bought :tongue: .

[Shellhead]

Justice was okay. Yeah, it's kind of like a serious Superfriends, or a very retro JLA story. The artwork is good, but falters in some of the action sequences when the panel-to-panel flow omits important information. Likewise, the writing includes some good ideas, but comes across choppy at times, skimming over important points too quickly. So there were times when I just didn't get what or why something was happening when I was supposed to, and that took me mentally out of the story for a moment.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

If you like Challenge of the Super Friends and you like Alex Ross, you should pick this up. The art is wonderful and there's some interesting character beats.

[Lupek]

I thought it was very good. DC's best characters and comics best artist. And I enjoyed the story. Actually, now that it's been mentioned, I am going to reread it.

[SJNeal]

Art-wise it's beautiful, like everyone's said. The story lost me though by the last few issues, when everyone busted out that ridiculous armor. It felt like they were writing the comic in support of the toy line; "Hey, let's put the JLA in these stupid suits so we can sell even more Battle Armor Batman figures!"

[Gef]

Art-wise it's beautiful, like everyone's said. The story lost me though by the last few issues, when everyone busted out that ridiculous armor. It felt like they were writing the comic in support of the toy line; "Hey, let's put the JLA in these stupid suits so we can sell even more Battle Armor Batman figures!"

True, but I think the idea of the armour was cool - without giving a spoiler, what the armour was made of was a great idea, even if the final designs had an eye on the toy line to come.

[Bob Violence]

Art-wise it's beautiful, like everyone's said. The story lost me though by the last few issues, when everyone busted out that ridiculous armor. It felt like they were writing the comic in support of the toy line; "Hey, let's put the JLA in these stupid suits so we can sell even more Battle Armor Batman figures!"
That, to me was poor pacing. The armor seemed to indicate the beginning of the end, but it dragged on a while after that. It probably reads better in a trade, especially considering it took ages to get each issue out.

[Ilash]

Eh.

Pretty art and a very underwhelming story. It's another wird case of going dark with these SIlver Age characters and it simply doesn't work. There was worse reads out there to be sure but there are loads better too.

[Raker616]

Justice is an incredible comic and probably the single best JLA story i've ever read. The artwork is incredible Doug and Alex combined on the art and really blend perfectly together the JLA has never looked this good ever. Jim's script hit all the points, it presents the badguys as real legit threats to the heroes and shows them overcoming all obstacles by using their skills to defeat them. From top to bottom almost every issue has at least one great moment for all heroes from Captain Marvel to Aquaman. This is what the current JLA should be and I would love nothing more than to see DC bring back all 3 guys to make a Justice part 2 it would be equally epic and much needed at this point.

[Karl O'Neill]

great story and art. read it. it's a classic.

[Lupek]

This is what the current JLA should be and I would love nothing more than to see DC bring back all 3 guys to make a Justice part 2 it would be equally epic and much needed at this point.

Agreed 100% on both counts.

Personally I think Alex Ross should be running the creative end of DC comics.

[Ilash]

Personally I think Alex Ross should be running the creative end of DC comics.

Yuck, no! Good painter, he may be but he's not much on the storytelling.

[Lupek]

Yuck, no! Good painter, he may be but he's not much on the storytelling.

He has a vision of the DC characters that people respond to with cash. DC needs fewer niche books that make the online message board posters happy but don't sell, and more books like Justice, that the mainstream audience is willing to pay for.

[Mainline]

While it was being released as a monthly, as many has 50% of the readers who picked up that first issue abandoned the series before it was done. It's got an all-star cast, a celebrity artist, only needs to sustain mini-series audience, outside continuity thus accessible, and a powerful DC marketing push... but with all that going for it, more than half dropped it.

Storywise- the quality of the read- it is far from a classic.

As a benchmark for how many people will buy into a book for all the bells and whistles... it definitely proves sales can be juiced. Justice, essentially, would've gotten a 49% RottenTomatoes critical rating (half deciding it not worth continuing on) but nevertheless a commercial success.

[Ilash]

He has a vision of the DC characters that people respond to with cash. DC needs fewer niche books that make the online message board posters happy but don't sell, and more books like Justice, that the mainstream audience is willing to pay for.

Alex Ross art = The Big Bucks.

Alex Ross' vision = Nobody gives a crap.

And niche books rule! To a large degree, they were the saving grace of the 90s.

[Seraku]

great mini. like people have said, it was "niche" book. but I just loved it all.

[jtd]

I thought it was awful. I'm still ticked, too...as I toughed it out and bought the whole series. The story was very hard to follow, mostly due to the poor storytelling of Alex Ross' art. There were plenty of time I had to stare at/study a panel or page for quite awhile to try to figure out what the heck was going on in it. (And not in the good way...in the 'this is way too confusing" way).

I was very much let down, as Earth X is one of the best comic series ever IMO.

[WorstThingUS]

superfriends done seriously, the nostalgia factor amped through the roof...

Pretty art though.

Quoted yet again for truth.

But I enjoyed it. It was by no means any sort of an achievement and certainly not worth the two years it took to create. And their Avengers/Invaders is one of the single worst books of the last two years.

He has a vision of the DC characters that people respond to with cash. DC needs fewer niche books that make the online message board posters happy but don't sell, and more books like Justice, that the mainstream audience is willing to pay for.

He as a "limited" vision which is Silver and Bronze age and there's too much looking backwards already with Geoff Johns & Co. This is why he never drew a Nightwing picture until this year because it didn't "fit" in it. And Nightwing is what, 25 years old now?

[Raker616]

While it was being released as a monthly, as many has 50% of the readers who picked up that first issue abandoned the series before it was done. It's got an all-star cast, a celebrity artist, only needs to sustain mini-series audience, outside continuity thus accessible, and a powerful DC marketing push... but with all that going for it, more than half dropped it.

Storywise- the quality of the read- it is far from a classic.

As a benchmark for how many people will buy into a book for all the bells and whistles... it definitely proves sales can be juiced. Justice, essentially, would've gotten a 49% RottenTomatoes critical rating (half deciding it not worth continuing on) but nevertheless a commercial success.

I think your a bit confused there, first off Justice was bi-monthly from the start second Justice was also a huge sales success for DC and considering the fact that is was bimonthly and lasted 2 years it was quite impressive.

[Seraku]

newsflash - Ross didn't pencil this series

He as a "limited" vision which is Silver and Bronze age and there's too much looking backwards already with Geoff Johns & Co. This is why he never drew a Nightwing picture until this year because it didn't "fit" in it. And Nightwing is what, 25 years old now?why exactly did he give in and draw Nightwing and Oracle?

[dushuai]

If you like Challenge of the Super Friends and you like Alex Ross, you should pick this up. http://www.photosnag.com/img/4673/n09x0302vnsn/clear.gifThe art is wonderful and there's some interesting character beats.

I agree you to pick it up,interesting.

[carabas]

He has a vision of the DC characters that people respond to with cash. DC needs fewer niche books that make the online message board posters happy but don't sell, and more books like Justice, that the mainstream audience is willing to pay for.Comics are a niche medium in america. The mainstream audience has never read even a single comic.

[Mainline]

I think your a bit confused there, first off Justice was bi-monthly from the start second Justice was also a huge sales success for DC and considering the fact that is was bimonthly and lasted 2 years it was quite impressive.I think you're missing the forest for the trees over the lack of a mere letters ("bi"). First, I NEVER denied the commercial success of Justice. Even after it shed a ton of readers, I acknowledged it did well. Second, my point was that it did not retain or grow readership like a genuine quality story would.

A ton of people bought issue #1. It doesn't matter if they were speculators, merely curious, or genuinely enamored with the concept... unless people bought that issue and never read it, the dramatic drop-off (losing half your audience) shows that it wasn't able to capture people who actually put down money for the first issue. We can't even be sure those who stuck with it actually liked the writing- some may simply be completists, speculators, art fans, character fans, promoters of the concept, loyalists, etc. We CAN be sure that 50% who bought the first issue, didn't complete the set, which a powerful story would mitigate.

This doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, but it does mean it's an acquired taste rather than something with universal acclaim or appeal and worthy of being called a story-telling benchmark. That claim is pretty far off.

[Karl O'Neill]

It's a modern classic. IMHO.

It has all the trappings of great storytelling and the art is simply wonderful.

Not to push aside some peoples honest critisisms of it, I can't help but feel because alex ross is a voice in comics that some people don't agree with they would let that make them bias towards anything he is involved with.

[Mainline]

It's a modern classic. IMHO.In YOUR opinion, perhaps that's fair... you can use it as a benchmark for other stories to test your enjoyment. But for more than half the people who read it, they walked away, which doesn't make it a benchmark for MOST people... which kinda negates the claim of it being a classic.

A classic means that it's something with universal appeal to be used as a standard or measuring stick. If it lacks that universal part, then there's way too much subjectivity for it to be used to measure anything and therefore cannot be a classic.

Not to push aside some peoples honest critisisms of it, I can't help but feel because alex ross is a voice in comics that some people don't agree with they would let that make them bias towards anything he is involved with.Only a small fraction of comic fans know what writers have to say beyond the pages of their book and certainly this argument doesn't fly if you consider how many people bought the book initially. Politics is a red herring. If people wanted to sink Ross because of his views they would've boycotted the series outright and it would've have been a commercial success overall.

[Karl O'Neill]

And what about all the people who came back and bought VOL 1 in HC, The VOL 2 in HC and then VOL 3 in HC.

Then all the people who came back and got VOL 1 in trade, VOL 2 in trade, and VOL 3 in trade.

The the ABSOLUTE version sold pretty well too.

And lets face it, The same people who bought the singles are not all the same people who waited for the hardcovers, trades and absolute version of the story. Plus all the new readers who took a chance of in the shops when they see it on the shelf.

Below tells me if at issue 10 justice was still hitting close to 100K that was pretty awesome, And add all the reorders the month after.

265,935 Civil War #7 (of 7)

172,147 Dark Tower: The Gunslinger Born #1 (of 7)

142,956 Amazing Spider-Man #538

130,531 New Avengers #27

119,736 Astonishing X-Men #20

97,181 Wolverine #51

94,960 Justice #10 (of 12)

94,694 52 Week #40

94,486 52 Week #41

94,220 52 Week #42

93,505 52 Week #43

92,881 New Avengers: Illuminati #2 (of 5)

92,091 Brave & Bold #1

89,163 Civil War Frontline #11 (of 11)

84,356 Justice Society of America #3

83,167 Batman #663

83,009 Uncanny X-Men #483

78,901 Wolverine: Origins #11

75,707 X-Men #196

74,376 Ultimate Spider-Man #105

69,860 Wonder Woman #4

65,569 X-Men Annual #1

64,554 Action Comics #846

64,363 Ultimate X-Men #79

62,791 Thunderbolts #111

[greatmetropolitan]

It was basically just Ross's love-note to his favourite characters. If you're interested in the JLA portrayed how Alex Ross sees them, (lots and lots of hal jordan love) with no regard given to, well, just about anything else, you'll love it. They even do little files on each character at the back "from the bat-computer" that puts forward their favoured origin for the character. Being a 12 issue maxi with little screen time for any one character, I can see why that would be important.

[Stanlos]

I was thinking about picking this one up. Is it a good read?

I liked it for the Captain Marvel goodness.

[Mainline]

And what about all the people who came back and bought VOL 1 in HC, The VOL 2 in HC and then VOL 3 in HC.

Then all the people who came back and got VOL 1 in trade, VOL 2 in trade, and VOL 3 in trade.

The the ABSOLUTE version sold pretty well too.

And lets face it, The same people who bought the singles are not all the same people who waited for the hardcovers, trades and absolute version of the story. Plus all the new readers who took a chance of in the shops when they see it on the shelf.

Below tells me if at issue 10 justice was still hitting close to 100K that was pretty awesome, And add all the reorders the month after.

You're jumping all over the place in terms of what you're talking about. "Let's face it" was EXACTLY what I broke down two posts ago. And by talking about absolute numbers as "awesome" there is no disagreement in terms of commercial success... the question is of quality.

I am saying, "Look at the PERCENTAGE of how many people took a bite and decided they didn't want to eat a whole slice." You're saying, "But look how many people decided to buy a whole pie without tasting it!" (buying anthologies, which, by the way ALSO dipped off after VOL1 in either format, but is impossible with Absolute Edition- essentially, a complete impulse buy), alternatively, the sheer number of those who stuck with it. Again, no question, McDonald's or KFC is a commercial success in sheer numbers, but it's a different question whether it appeals to the palette in terms of quality. Something can do very well in numbers but still bomb a taste test, as Justice did.

[Seven_Ride]

A ton of people bought issue #1. It doesn't matter if they were speculators, merely curious, or genuinely enamored with the concept... unless people bought that issue and never read it, the dramatic drop-off (losing half your audience) shows that it wasn't able to capture people who actually put down money for the first issue. We can't even be sure those who stuck with it actually liked the writing- some may simply be completists, speculators, art fans, character fans, promoters of the concept, loyalists, etc. We CAN be sure that 50% who bought the first issue, didn't complete the set, which a powerful story would mitigate.
No it wouldn't: Most every series that runs more than one year experiences exactly that sort of attrition, regardless of what sales level it's at.

Your first statement should be: "Retailers ordered a lot of copies of issue #1." Because orders on the first 3 issues of any series are done pretty much blind to consumer demand. Also, retailers like having extra copies of issues 1-2 around for several reasons; speculation, late-blooming customer interest, etc. Which means it's standard for most series lose 20-25% in orders just by the 2nd issue. And another 10-15% by the 3rd issue. It's a few months before retailers can order books based solely on consumer demand, and even beloved books decline in sales over time- standard attrition.

This pattern exists for most series regardless of critical acclaim, interest level or long-term viability. Which means the first several issues of any series isn't solid ground upon which to judge reader acceptance level.

[carabas]

...I can't help but feel because alex ross is a voice in comics that some people don't agree with they would let that make them bias towards anything he is involved with.
While it is true that I don't care for nostalgia elevated to a raison d'etre for a comic, my problems are more with Krueger than with Ross.
Ross's ideas proved worthwhile in Kingdom Come, when he was coupled with a good writer.

With Krueger, there is this complete emotional disconnect from the story. Any and all emotion in his writings is what that the reader already had towards the characters to begin with.
To me he is a lazy writer who figures he doesn't have to bother making us care for the characters because they're Green Lantern or Captain America, and if we didn't already care we woldn't be reading it in the first place. And can't pace his stories properly.

I had this with Justice, with Earth X, even with the Buffy single issue he did a few month ago, and I didn't even know it was him until I checked the creditts half way though to see which fill-in writer was sucking this badly.

[Seven_Ride]

He as a "limited" vision which is Silver and Bronze age and there's too much looking backwards already with Geoff Johns & Co. This is why he never drew a Nightwing picture until this year because it didn't "fit" in it. And Nightwing is what, 25 years old now?
So basically he cherishes comics from the last era where they appealed to a MUCH larger audience with broader tastes. Before they became a fetish for an insular demographic of aging adolescents who expect the fictional constructs to age and change with them, limiting their viability.

Got it. Man he IS evil!

[Karl O'Neill]

I am saying, "Look at the PERCENTAGE of how many people took a bite and decided they didn't want to eat a whole slice."

Rubbish.

Many people including myself buy first issues, and then drop a title by default be4because we want to read something cool in HC or SC when the story is complete. I can list several titles as an example.

People wait for the trades.

And an ABSOLUTE EDITION speaks volumes of the quality of the story. As not many stories actually get that Treatment.

See kingdom come, New frontier, GL Rebirth for example.

[Mainline]

No it wouldn't: Most every series that runs more than one year experiences exactly that sort of attrition, regardless of what sales level it's at.

This pattern exists for most series regardless of critical acclaim, interest level or long-term viability. Which means the first several issues of any series isn't solid ground upon which to judge reader acceptance level.Here's where you're wrong. Those with acclaim, universal appeal, and powerful word of mouth sell out, grow in sales, and have multiple reprintings to cover accommodate the demand. Trending with everything else shows it's just as subject to banal market tenancies as anything else rather than a classic.

Rubbish.

Many people including myself buy first issues, and then drop a title by default be4because we want to read something cool in HC or SC when the story is complete. I can list several titles as an example.

People wait for the trades.You realize this only hurts your absolute sales argument because then the people who got into the future editions were really just double dipping? In terms of percentage, it's still irrelevant because the discussion is STORY. If the story was that compelling, people would be hooked, unwilling to defer to a later collected edition- heck, this is what the comic book industry relies upon with the ubiquitousness of trades today. The STORY wasn't classic enough for people to say, "I've got to read this NOW, be part of the discussion, to avoid spoilers, irrespective of trades."

It was weak enough that, according to you, those dropping said "Yawn, I'll wait for the trade... it's the art and the collection that really matter anyways."

And an ABSOLUTE EDITION speaks volumes of the quality of the story. As not many stories actually get that Treatment.This is a laugh. Danger Girl and Superman: For Tomorrow have Absolute Editions. Again, no one doubts the theoretical perfect storm of Justice's marketability- okay, maybe it lacks the pin-up model cast of Danger Girl- but that's a far cry from claiming it's story is somehow certified as great merely by getting an Absolute Edition. You're also off point again with respect to the taste test. If KFC moves a promo item to its regular value meal menu, that just means it's marketable not that it's a classic compared to all food.

[carabas]

So basically he cherishes comics from the last era where they appealed to a MUCH larger audience with broader tastes.It would be correcter to say that it was an era in which comics were available to a much wider audience than they are now.
If you cut your retailers by 90%, sales will follow.

[carabas]

And an ABSOLUTE EDITION speaks volumes of the quality of the story. As not many stories actually get that Treatment.Pffft. Hush got an Absolute Edition.

[Karl O'Neill]

It was weak enough that, according to you, those dropping said "Yawn, I'll wait for the trade... it's the art and the collection that really matter anyways."



Wrong again.

All you done here is tried to use my comment and twist it to help your argument. Which I seen throught and am pointing that out to you now.

I got the first issue of fables and then switched to trades. and that's a title I rate higher than preacher or sandman.

Alot of people want to read stories in one sitting these days regardless of how compelling the periodicals are.

[Karl O'Neill]

Pffft. Hush got an Absolute Edition.

That's a clear cash in for jim lee's art. I didn't know danger girl got this treatment. I suspect something to do with the art here as well.

Kingdom come, New frontier and Justice are all brillaint stories that deserve new additions every few years to get new readers to pick them up. Heck i can't stop recommending the above 32 to anybody who shows an interest in comics.

[Mainline]

Wrong again.
Rather spot on. Switching to trades proves the story wasn't enough to get you to buy the periodical which classics accomplish. Whatever esteem you may hold for it retroactively doesn't speak well to its ability to keep you on.

Alot of people want to read stories in one sitting these days regardless of how compelling the periodicals are.As for this notion, it's a pretty vague and self-centered view of the universe that doesn't account for the STEADY drop-off in sales AND the drop-off even amongst the HC & TPB editions. If they were all noble purists such as yourself, there would've been one astronomical plummet instead of the almost continual decline (barring the final issue). If they were all so keen an intent on getting the collected editions, there would be no drop off from Volumes 1 to Volumes 2 & 3.

[Karl O'Neill]

UM, No.

Going around in circles here. (Grievous whistles to himself)

I EXPLICLY told you that regardless of the quality, I would switch to trades anyways, Got that?

other people have TONS of reasons to drop a title as it progresses.

You have not really given a good analysis of the numbers, Because you don't know much about numbers to begin with, Either do I, But I don't pretend to.

[carabas]

Rather spot on. Switching to trades proves the story wasn't enough to get you to buy the periodical which classics accomplish. Whatever esteem you may hold for it retroactively doesn't speak well to its ability to keep you on.Some books simply are not terribly enjoyable when read in monthly 22 page instalments. Some books, and in my experience especially the really well written ones, simply read better when you can read all of the story in one sitting.

Classics accomplish getting you to buy the singles because there wasn't any trades program to speak of when the classics were published. "Justice" is far too recent and flawed a work to go bandying around a word like 'classic'.

[Karl O'Neill]

Classics accomplish getting you to buy the singles because there wasn't any trades program to speak of when the classics were published. "Justice" is far too recent and flawed a work to go bandying around a word like 'classic'.

How is it flawed?

Recent means nothing.

As Batman RIP, Umbrella academy and Neil Gaiman's recent Batman work are all considered instant CLASSICS by Bloggers, reviewers and most importantly fans. I would add ALL STAR SUPERMAN to that list as well.

I couldn't read watchmen in single installments, The trade works perfectly to me. But I guess this was not how moore intended it? ;-). Bear in mind to some watchmen itself is considered a turd! But a small number of people think that.

You simply can't win with fanboys!

[Mainline]

I EXPLICLY told you that regardless of the quality, I would switch to trades anyways, Got that?And I said that it's an oddity to project that onto everyone who dropped the book, when the more likely reason is that it simply wasn't their cup of tea... it certainly wasn't compelling enough to get them to buy it up front. Instead of buying the KFC limited item, you're WAITING for the value menu option. The dish doesn't sound all that savory then... unless you're not deferring your hunger but sating it through, what, piracy?

other people have TONS of reasons to drop a title as it progresses.I agree, the only issue for me is that they didn't KEEP buying the issues and that includes the collected editions.

For something to be classic, there needs to be agreement. "Superman's cape is red." There might be some wrestling as to what constitutes "red" but overall there a consensus that deems a red cape to be classic. "Batman's suit is black" is a thornier, less agreeable statement- it ranges from black, to grey, to blue, etc...

"Justice is a classic story." is further off the mark than Batman's suit color which, despite debate, can at least be categorized as "dark"... with Justice, the quality of the story is far more controversial and subjective. I think, all along, you're having this problem of believing your opinion is projected onto the public at large and therefore deems what constitutes a classic or not.

[Carter Hall]

Justice is an incredible comic and probably the single best JLA story i've ever read. The artwork is incredible Doug and Alex combined on the art and really blend perfectly together the JLA has never looked this good ever. Jim's script hit all the points, it presents the badguys as real legit threats to the heroes and shows them overcoming all obstacles by using their skills to defeat them. From top to bottom almost every issue has at least one great moment for all heroes from Captain Marvel to Aquaman. This is what the current JLA should be and I would love nothing more than to see DC bring back all 3 guys to make a Justice part 2 it would be equally epic and much needed at this point.


I'm going to jump in here and say that I also loved this series, not just for the stellar art but also the story- I, too, would say it's the best Justice League story I've ever read.

I was underwhelmed by the first issue, too, and also felt that it was just Superfriends taken a little more seriously, but man, the book picked up and grew beyond that. Everybody got great spotlight and the plot was believable, epic, action-packed, everything- and had great characterization. For instance, has Aquaman ever been better? Any time Alex Ross works on Aquaman, the character is awesome- many would say this is a gift! And I guess I'm in a minority, but I actually thought all those armors the characters wore at the end were really, really cool.

Yes, Alex Ross is in love with the Golden Age and Silver Age, and the book was a tip of the hat to those eras, yes. But that's why this book was done outside continuity as a stand-alone story. Nothing wrong with this at all.

Maybe it didn't flow as well as other stories at times but I really don't understand what all this hate is about. Great book. I'd recommend it without a second thought.

[Mainline]

Some books simply are not terribly enjoyable when read in monthly 22 page instalments. Some books, and in my experience especially the really well written ones, simply read better when you can read all of the story in one sitting.That's fine, but that's different from saying that every person who dropped the book suddenly made that decision half-way through the run OR after buying one volume of the trade... that's a pretty absurd leap which was what I was arguing against.

Classics accomplish getting you to buy the singles because there wasn't any trades program to speak of when the classics were published. "Justice" is far too recent and flawed a work to go bandying around a word like 'classic'.I agree with the misuse of classic, but I disagree that the trade issue eliminates the issue when you have a steady decline in sales (rather than people quickly and consciously deciding, "I'll wait") and when the trades suffer drop-offs too. If the trades were siphoning off the periodical sales, we wouldn't see those trends.

[Karl O'Neill]

Justice is a classic story." is further off the mark than Batman's suit color which, despite debate, can at least be categorized as "dark"... with Justice, the quality of the story is far more controversial and subjective. I think, all along, you're having this problem of believing your opinion is projected onto the public at large and therefore deems what constitutes a classic or not.

Again, If somebody doesn't like something, It;s not hard to find flaws. have you read peoples posts who hate watchmen and kingdom come?

Like the egg example Tony hopkins gave in that film FRACTURE. No egg is without flaws. But I guess, what you are saying is, some eggs have more cracks than others.

Another + point for JUSTICE is that it is not in continuity. Everything you get can be enjoyed and read as GOSPEL.

Also. I don't mean to be snarky when saying you don't know you sales stuff, Either of us do, There are people who analise this stuff for a living. All I can say is, Everything loses readers and gains readers, some have different brackets than others.

Look, Secret six does Only OK numbers, and does okay in trades as well I hear, And the FANS(me being one of them) are Fucking Rabid about that book, And yet, Justice had double the readers that book has now, Does that leave it opened to a wider fanbase of feedback? yes.

[Vigilante Man]

I'm gonna pick this up. I am a fan of Ross especially his DC work. His renditions of Superman and Wonder Woman are two of my favorite versions of those characters.

[Salvester]

It is Alex Ross's love letter to the JLA.

It has beautiful art.

It isn't really dark and gritty at all.

It shows some not very often seen character be awesome (The Elongated(sp haha) Man.

It has...unique, if not consistant, showings of some character.

Watching Bizzaro/Metallo/Grundy/Parasite pound on Supes made me feel warm and fuzzy.

Capt. Marvel is shown in a good light.

In other words, it is a good story, kind of like Super Friends, in constrast to some of the stories today, very pretty to look at.

Is Kingdom Come? No. But still, a good read if you like JLA and pretty art.

And like seeing Supes get a good whopping sometimes.

[Vigilante Man]

I heard Brainiac has some cool moments in it as well.

[Seven_Ride]

Here's where you're wrong. Those with acclaim, universal appeal, and powerful word of mouth sell out, grow in sales, and have multiple reprintings to cover accommodate the demand.
This might happen in isolated instances, but again: You can't judge reader acceptance by the first few issues of a series sales, since those "sales" are orders by retailers, who tend to order more # 1s and # 2s than any other issues.

If this were isolated to Justice, you MIGHT have a point. But it's universal, so you don't.

[Seven_Ride]

Some books simply are not terribly enjoyable when read in monthly 22 page instalments. Some books, and in my experience especially the really well written ones, simply read better when you can read all of the story in one sitting.I bought the first 2 issues of Justice, only flipped through them, and never even bought the remaining issues. I figured there'd be a trade someday really cheap, and I'd read it then. And someday I will.

Classics accomplish getting you to buy the singles because there wasn't any trades program to speak of when the classics were published.We're moving goalposts by adding additional terms to the definition of a classic. The actual definition works fine.

Besides, "classic" is awfully subjective. If someone says Countdown to Final Crisis is classic, they must believe it is of the highest quality and will withstand the test of time. Or their name is Dan Didio.

[WorstThingUS]

So basically he cherishes comics from the last era where they appealed to a MUCH larger audience with broader tastes. Before they became a fetish for an insular demographic of aging adolescents who expect the fictional constructs to age and change with them, limiting their viability.

Got it. Man he IS evil!

Um, how exactly is Alex Ross not one of those "aging adolescents" in his own right by that nature of his viewpoint that pretty much everything stopped pre-crisis? He's the epitome of that. It's one thing for the characters not to grow up, it quite another for the creators to attempt the feat.

Evil he's not, nor is he a great writer. Like I said, I enjoyed Justice, but it is not Kingdom Come or The New Frontier or All Star Superman or any of an number of mini-series that are universally held to higher acclaim. It's no classic by any stretch of the imagination. A great deal of the JLA satellite era stories it's an homage to are much, much better.

So to answer the OP's question, yeah, if you can find it cheap and not get screwed over by their piecemeal HC release, then it's worth a rainy Saturday afternoon read. But I wouldn't shell out big bucks for it, nor would I a waste a nice afternoon inside reading it.

[earl]

I thought it was pretty good. It was way better than the way the JLA has been used over the past few years, but I would agree it isn't as good as say All Star Superman or The New Frontier, which are recent DC projects to have a similar nostalgic feel but are better comics.

I got into it right before it ended and read most of the series in a setting.

I liked Justice enough to get the first couple of issues of both Avengers/Invaders and those Project Superhero books, neither of which I could get into at all.

[Seven_Ride]

Um, how exactly is Alex Ross not one of those "aging adolescents" in his own right by that nature of his viewpoint that pretty much everything stopped pre-crisis?
If it was "everything should be like it was when I was 13", I'd agree. But the 70s was the last great hurrah for these characters in their classic form, on a wide stage. At that point, there wasn't yet a downside: Killing them off, replacing them, Marvelizing them, etc.

Every longrunning act has its peaks and valleys, and classic period. Even artists. Is the John Byrne of now as good as the 80s? DC's main heroes were still in classic form at the dawn of the 80s. Then they began mucking with them to make them Marvel-friendly. By the 90s, many of them were in dire need of repair, from Aquaman to Green Lantern to Flash, etc.

The 70s represents the end of the classic period, before the downside set in.

[Karl O'Neill]

it's be happy with this sort of rating then.

All star superman--5 stars (Being the highest)
Kingdom come--4.5 stars
New frontier Vols 1&2 --5 stars
JUSTICE--4 stars.
Dark Knight Returns--5 stars
Watchmen--5stars
Seven soldiers and 52--4 stars
Cry for Justice--- Minus 5 stars!:biggrin:

[carabas]

I bought the first 2 issues of Justice, only flipped through them, and never even bought the remaining issues. I figured there'd be a trade someday really cheap, and I'd read it then. And someday I will.I don't recommend it. I was talking in general, not about Justice specifically.

[Wilder Midnight]

I was thinking about picking this one up. Is it a good read?

i not only waited until the entire series was complete and published i waited all the way until all three trades were collected pretty much avoiding any and all spoilers and as little preview art as i could.

i pretty much got the whole thing and ate it all up in one big long sitting.

it was amazing.


totally go for it.

[Mainline]

This might happen in isolated instancesActually it's pretty consistent for most of the other Absolute editions if they're the benchmark.

If this were isolated to Justice, you MIGHT have a point. But it's universal, so you don't.Except you're wrong, it's the exact reverse. Justice follows the trend of all other banal books starting with a #1, while most other classics require reprintings of #1 issues or result in larger orders of subsequent issues (like the Wonder Woman bump on Six). And let's not forget- far from selling out- Justice was the book they had to GIVE AWAY on Free Comic Book Day without that translating into consistent sales for VOL 2 & 3 of the trades.

Besides, "classic" is awfully subjective. Not if you're actually using the correct definition....

[WorstThingUS]

it's be happy with this sort of rating then.

All star superman--5 stars (Being the highest)
Kingdom come--4.5 stars
New frontier Vols 1&2 --5 stars
JUSTICE--4 stars.
Dark Knight Returns--5 stars
Watchmen--5stars
Seven soldiers and 52--4 stars
Cry for Justice--- Minus 5 stars!:biggrin:

I'm sorry, but Justice above Dark Knight and Watchmen!?! Their own mothers wouldn't tell that lie.

[WorstThingUS]

If it was "everything should be like it was when I was 13", I'd agree. But the 70s was the last great hurrah for these characters in their classic form, on a wide stage. At that point, there wasn't yet a downside: Killing them off, replacing them, Marvelizing them, etc.

Every longrunning act has its peaks and valleys, and classic period. Even artists. Is the John Byrne of now as good as the 80s? DC's main heroes were still in classic form at the dawn of the 80s. Then they began mucking with them to make them Marvel-friendly. By the 90s, many of them were in dire need of repair, from Aquaman to Green Lantern to Flash, etc.

The 70s represents the end of the classic period, before the downside set in.

No matter how you say it, it's still "everything the way it was when I was 13." You and Alex Ross just happen to think that was a great time so it's an okay exception to the rule.

And while I do feel that the late 70's are underrated at DC (especially Batman), Superman needed revamping like he needed air. It was beyond boring (I know because I have all at Elliot S! Maggin, Cary Bates and Curt Swan stuff). Generalizing the 90's as bad only makes you sound like the people who generalize the 70's as bad because it wasn't the 50's before stories had to be burdened with "realism" and social topics. For some it was Harry Osborn and Roy Harper on drugs that ended their classic period. It's never a good idea to be trapped in the past, especially when it result in painfully eccentric behavior like refusing to draw characters two decades old, because "they weren't like that when I was 13" which is just the type of behavior Alex Ross has engaged in. What kind of professional does that?

[Karl O'Neill]

U read it wrong.

The grades are at the end of each choice, 5 is the highest.

[Vic Vega]

I'm sorry, but Justice above Dark Knight and Watchmen!?! Their own mothers wouldn't tell that lie.

The first issue of Dark Knight is truly great, epic stuff. The second issue is almost as good.

After that it get so over the top that I assumed at the time that it was trying to be intentionally funny.

Then you get the "Batman kicks Superman butt" deal and Superman has jobbed out to Batman ever since then.

Not saying its not better that Justice but the thing has flaws.

[Seven_Ride]

No matter how you say it, it's still "everything the way it was when I was 13."
Not at all. I got into comics in the mid-80s. But it's like Star Trek. Or the Rolling Stones: They've been around the entire time you've been alive, right? But their classic period was the mid-60s to maybe the early 70s. They made some good music after that, sure. But come on- what made them LEGENDS is the material from those classic years, it's what people will remember them for. For the main DC characters, it's either the 40s stuff or the 60s stuff. And even the stuff after is completely influenced by those eras.

It's true for Marvel too. Except there fandom is honest about recognizing that the lion's share of their line is driven by the 60s characters and stories.

And while I do feel that the late 70's are underrated at DC (especially Batman), Superman needed revamping like he needed air. It was beyond boringActually Superman in those days didn't need air.

Superman was one of the most popular fictional characters in the world in the 70s. A revamp was "needed"? If they had wanted to increase sales, it would have been easy. Create more epic stories, and have them drawn by better artists. Hell, just put Neal Adams or George Perez on Superman, and any problem disappears.

Generalizing the 90's as bad only makes you sound like the people who generalize the 70's as bad because it wasn't the 50's before stories had to be burdened with "realism" and social topics.
Who generalized the 90s as bad? Yeah they damaged some of their brands, but other great material popped up as well. Lots of good stories came around then. Some even with the classic characters, like Batman Year One or Death of Superman.

But that doesn't make the Superman of the 90s a faithful, timeless take on the character.

[Raker616]

I think you're missing the forest for the trees over the lack of a mere letters ("bi"). First, I NEVER denied the commercial success of Justice. Even after it shed a ton of readers, I acknowledged it did well. Second, my point was that it did not retain or grow readership like a genuine quality story would.

A ton of people bought issue #1. It doesn't matter if they were speculators, merely curious, or genuinely enamored with the concept... unless people bought that issue and never read it, the dramatic drop-off (losing half your audience) shows that it wasn't able to capture people who actually put down money for the first issue. We can't even be sure those who stuck with it actually liked the writing- some may simply be completists, speculators, art fans, character fans, promoters of the concept, loyalists, etc. We CAN be sure that 50% who bought the first issue, didn't complete the set, which a powerful story would mitigate.

This doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, but it does mean it's an acquired taste rather than something with universal acclaim or appeal and worthy of being called a story-telling benchmark. That claim is pretty far off.

The fact that you don't realise the difference between a monthly book and bi-monthly book say alot, trust me I loved Justice but the wait for it was hell if it wasn't for the quality I would have dropped it half way through. Also trying to equate first issue sales with somesort of bigger meaning than it has is also a reach, anyone who follows sales knows #1 issue sales mean very little. The true way to measure things is how it does sales wise after the first handfull of issue, Justice held up it's end very well in that respect. Finally everything here is an acquired taste, I think Justice is a classic you don't the world won't end and everything will be fine but anyway you can judge it Justice was a huge hit for DC.

[Kiryu]

I don't really care for Justice. It started off interesting, with the villains helping the world and a really awesome way to see Superman get his ass kicked. But then it just descended into silliness with the armored heroes and paper-thin characterizations and overall disappointing end as it just turns into "Well the villains are villains and the Superfriends are here to save the day, wonder twin powers activate huzzah!" rather then actually explore the notion that heroes WILL fail and that the dredges of humanity who are blessed with intellect and power on par with or beyond those of the heroes might, when push come to shove, save the world.

Alex Ross's art is gorgeous, no doubt, but I find he's lackluster as a storyteller. His art is perfect for Kingdom Come due to the way it's writter, as this dream-like nostalgic journey to the end of an era, like war photos and the like. But otherwise it just seems stiff and without life.

[Mainline]

The fact that you don't realise the difference between a monthly book and bi-monthly book say alot, trust me I loved Justice but the wait for it was hell if it wasn't for the quality I would have dropped it half way through. Also trying to equate first issue sales with somesort of bigger meaning than it has is also a reach, anyone who follows sales knows #1 issue sales mean very little. The true way to measure things is how it does sales wise after the first handfull of issue, Justice held up it's end very well in that respect. Finally everything here is an acquired taste, I think Justice is a classic you don't the world won't end and everything will be fine but anyway you can judge it Justice was a huge hit for DC.First, you're being anal about two letters. Second, the trend goes beyond the first issue. Third, precisely why acquired taste alone is insufficient to establish a classic. Fourth, the world won't end but the word "classic" gets mauled just a little bit more. Finally, good job pointing out something conceded over and over when the issue was it's quality in terms of story-telling, not commercial success... All-Star Batman sells well too, it's far from classic. Justice has not and never will win critical awards for writing and did not earn the consensus of the public... that's hardly a metric for classic.

[WorstThingUS]

Not at all. I got into comics in the mid-80s. But it's like Star Trek. Or the Rolling Stones: They've been around the entire time you've been alive, right? But their classic period was the mid-60s to maybe the early 70s. They made some good music after that, sure. But come on- what made them LEGENDS is the material from those classic years, it's what people will remember them for. For the main DC characters, it's either the 40s stuff or the 60s stuff. And even the stuff after is completely influenced by those eras.

First of all, for DC the 50's were one of it's greatest periods. It's the birth of the Silver Age. Hal Jordan, Barry Allen...all from the 50's. All the reboots you see are going back to it, not the 60's or 70's. And a more proper analogy would be to say that rock itself peaked in that time period, not a single group and yes, some do believe that it ended there. But that doesn't mean stop or spend your time just listening to Exile on Main Street for the rest of your life. Thinking like that means The Clash never comes into existence.


Actually Superman in those days didn't need air.

Superman was one of the most popular fictional characters in the world in the 70s. A revamp was "needed"? If they had wanted to increase sales, it would have been easy. Create more epic stories, and have them drawn by better artists. Hell, just put Neal Adams or George Perez on Superman, and any problem disappears.

No, all the way up until the very end Superman was still primarily done-in-one or two part stories with "shocking" hyperbole covers like it was still 1973. It wasn't simply art, it was an entire approach that should have been jettisoned a decade previously. The world had passed him by.


Who generalized the 90s as bad? Yeah they damaged some of their brands, but other great material popped up as well. Lots of good stories came around then. Some even with the classic characters, like Batman Year One or Death of Superman.

Batman Year One was great, while Death of Superman was shallow, empty stunt.

But that doesn't make the Superman of the 90s a faithful, timeless take on the character.

Closer to timeless than some of those stories towards the end, like where Superman has to face off against a "hippie" who gets alien powers and forces everyone over 30 to leave Metropolis. I'll take Panic in the Sky, They Saved Luthor's Brain and Time After Time or that any day of the week.

[Raker616]

First, you're being anal about two letters. Second, the trend goes beyond the first issue. Third, precisely why acquired taste alone is insufficient to establish a classic. Fourth, the world won't end but the word "classic" gets mauled just a little bit more. Finally, good job pointing out something conceded over and over when the issue was it's quality in terms of story-telling, not commercial success... All-Star Batman sells well too, it's far from classic. Justice has not and never will win critical awards for writing and did not earn the consensus of the public... that's hardly a metric for classic.

Ok first I never equated sales with quality I just pointed out how you were wrong in claiming that sales wise Justice was not a huge hit. Second the fact that you compared that atrocity that is ASBAR to Justice is wrong in more ways that I can point out.

[Seven_Ride]

First of all, for DC the 50's were one of it's greatest periods. It's the birth of the Silver Age. Hal Jordan, Barry Allen...all from the 50's. All the reboots you see are going back to it, not the 60's or 70's.
Flash and GL both really got underway in the early 60s. Plus the JLA debuted in 1960 itself. Their peak era was undoubtedly the 60s.

And a more proper analogy would be to say that rock itself peaked in that time period, not a single group and yes, some do believe that it ended there. But that doesn't mean stop or spend your time just listening to Exile on Main Street for the rest of your life. Thinking like that means The Clash never comes into existence.
Not at all. The analogy speaks purely to the Rolling Stones, not the development of other acts or music in general. The Stones classic period ended in the early 70s. It was all downhill after that. I grew up with the 80s Stones. And while they were still a big act, they were several steps down from being one of the most important musical acts in the world.

The same could be applied to the main DC heroes: Dominant in the 60s, less so in the 70s, and fractured by the 80s. Except maybe Batman.

No, all the way up until the very end Superman was still primarily done-in-one or two part stories with "shocking" hyperbole covers like it was still 1973. It wasn't simply art, it was an entire approach that should have been jettisoned a decade previously. The world had passed him by.
Not at all. In the late 70s and early 80s Superman was still one of the most popular fictional characters in the world. Especially in the wake of Super Friends and the Christopher Reeve films.

It was the comics approach that had become obsolete. As I said, dynamic stories with better artists would have solved that problem. Arc-driven storytelling wouldn't have hurt either, but at that stage it wasn't essential.

Closer to timeless than some of those stories towards the end, like where Superman has to face off against a "hippie" who gets alien powers and forces everyone over 30 to leave Metropolis. I'll take Panic in the Sky, They Saved Luthor's Brain and Time After Time or that any day of the week.
This is just cherrypicking. There are lots of bad stories in every era.

The difference between Superman in the 60s-70s and the 90s is simple: In 10-20 years, people will still revere the best stories from the 60s. The 90s and 00s? Notsomuch.

[WorstThingUS]

Flash and GL both really got underway in the early 60s. Plus the JLA debuted in 1960 itself. Their peak era was undoubtedly the 60s.

All the Batman and Superman stuff you see being referenced and brought back now? The 50's.


Not at all. The analogy speaks purely to the Rolling Stones, not the development of other acts or music in general. The Stones classic period ended in the early 70s. It was all downhill after that. I grew up with the 80s Stones. And while they were still a big act, they were several steps down from being one of the most important musical acts in the world.

The same could be applied to the main DC heroes: Dominant in the 60s, less so in the 70s, and fractured by the 80s. Except maybe Batman.

The analogy doesn't work because has pretty much has a set core of individuals while comics as a revolving door.


Not at all. In the late 70s and early 80s Superman was still one of the most popular fictional characters in the world. Especially in the wake of Super Friends and the Christopher Reeve films.

It was the comics approach that had become obsolete. As I said, dynamic stories with better artists would have solved that problem. Arc-driven storytelling wouldn't have hurt either, but at that stage it wasn't essential.

I was never talking about anything but the comics.


This is just cherrypicking. There are lots of bad stories in every era.

The difference between Superman in the 60s-70s and the 90s is simple: In 10-20 years, people will still revere the best stories from the 60s. The 90s and 00s? Notsomuch.

Unless you have a time machine, you have no clue. If you'd asked anyone in the grim 'n gritty 80's or its 90's fallout if there would ever be a fond look back on the lighter, 50's Batman or the late 70's Batman who was still a superhero, they'd have sworn up and down "Never" and yet here we are, Morrison's very Silver Age very superhero Batman is best selling and critically praised. Superman of the 90's and 00's had great storylines like Time and Time Again, Emperor Joker and The Neverending Battle. Not to mention Adventures of Superman over all was an underrated book. The only thing anyone can say for sure is that the mullet was freaking horrible. And very few people are praising much about the late 70's early 80's run of Superman. I read it all and memorable stories are few and far between. Not even Grant Morrison cites any of it.

[Lupek]

Alex Ross' vision = Nobody gives a crap.


Do you even believe that?

How many opinions did you seek for your polling data? Or were you elected the peoples poet? lol

[Ilash]

Do you even believe that?

How many opinions did you seek for your polling data? Or were you elected the peoples poet? lol

My point is simple: Alex Ross has a huge following because of his art. I've never seen any indication whatsoever that his writing, let alone his vision of the DCU, has much of a following whatsoever.

How often is Alex Ross really brought up in any capacity beyond his abilities as an artist. Darwyn Cooke, he ain't.

[The Batman]

I dunno, I think somebody gives a crap about Alex Ross' vision. That being said, I'm fairly certain that Alex Ross the artist is a bigger draw than Alex Ross the storyteller.

As for Justice, it was alright. I dug the big cast and the epic scope of the story. There were some great character beats and some fun ideas. Also, I thought including Doug Braithwaite gave Ross's work some much needed dynamism. One of the biggest weaknesses in Ross's art, for me, is the tendency for his figures to come across as static, over-posed, and lifeless.

The major flaw with this was the lack of flow. The pacing of the thing just seemed off and the story just didn't move well from panel to panel, especially in the action sequences.

All in all, worth checking out, but I wouldn't spend a lot of money on it.

[Ilash]

I dunno, I think somebody gives a crap about Alex Ross' vision. That being said, I'm fairly certain that Alex Ross the artist is a bigger draw than Alex Ross the storyteller.


Well, yes. I was exaggerating. Lupek, for one, clearly does and that's cool. I just don't think that there are a whole lot of others out there like him.


The major flaw with this was the lack of flow. The pacing of the thing just seemed off and the story just didn't move well from panel to panel, especially in the action sequences.

And this is a big reason why. I genuinely don't think he's much of a storyteller at all.

[Vigilante Man]

I've looked at some sample pages of this series and I must say that Braithwaite and Ross are a great team. Their styles meld together so well that if I didn't know that Braithwaite had worked on this series I would have thought that Ross had done the whole series by himself.

[Vigilante Man]

Did anyone purchase any of the action figures based on this series? They look great.

[arrowsonthemyscira]

Rather spot on. Switching to trades proves the story wasn't enough to get you to buy the periodical which classics accomplish. Whatever esteem you may hold for it retroactively doesn't speak well to its ability to keep you on.

But there are some people out there who only buy trades. I haven't bought comics in their regulary periodical format for over 5 years. And I haven't bought anything DC published as anyting other than a trade since I was about 12 years old (which would be 15 years).

Further, I thought Justice was an absolute triumph of storytelling. I thought that the hook in the first issue was spectacular. I read that at my LCS before I decided to purchase the 1st edition in hardcover. I have all three volumes in HC and have re-read them several times. Sure, nostalgia plays a part in my love of the story. But that's not the only reason that I think its great. I thought that the plot was straightforward and easy to follow. I thought that the portrayals of the villains were beautifully done. And even more so the story treatment given to the heroes. Aquaman was a particular bright spot in the story for me. Toward the end when he wants his son and vengence... wow... it was breathtaking storytelling.

The art was good too. Seriously good.

[WorstThingUS]

Did anyone purchase any of the action figures based on this series? They look great.

Best part about the series IMO.