Favorite and least favorite supporting characters?

[Shatagni]

Since there's already a thread about the amazons, I figured I'd do one on Wonder woman's other supporting characters. But because Wonder Woman's gone though such an excessive change in her status quo, she actually has tons of them in her history.

So list out all your favorites and non-favorites and what do you like or dislike about them.

You can pick them from any era, Golden age Steve Trevor, I-Ching, Micha Rains from the "Taco era", The Embassy Staff, the Gorillas of Today, anybody.

[BnL]

My favorites are Julia and Vanessa, Hippolyta, and Golden Age Etta.

Least favorites are Tom and Byrne's Cassie.

[Shatagni]

Yeah, It's kinda sad we don't get to see much of Julia anymore.

I always thought she was to Diana what Leslie Thomkins was to Bruce. As in she helped Diana get settled in her role.

[Xeres]

Gail's Etta by a lot as my favorite.

Least favorite? Hrm sooo many. I'm going to surprise you and not say Tom. I hated the relationship but I didn't hate the character. I hated the role that character was put in.

Sooo my least favorite supporting character was... the Lansarian.

Here's why. Diana who is among the top 5 most powerful heroes in DC is essentially given a sentient power ring. WTH? I mean when is it enough? One thing I like about Diana is her simplicity. She doesn't have gadgets, or frost breath or laser eyes. She has her god given gifts (which are abundant I might add) her bracers, tiara and lasso. That's it. She takes those and tackles problems head on. Adding extra things to me detracts from the character. That's why I didn't like the screaming chicken armor, or when she uses an axe, or lightning from the bracers or the Lansarian.

[4PointOh]

I love Etta Candy as written by Gail because she's so strong and capable.

I loved Diana's embassy staff because they were very well-written and gave the comic a West Wing-meets-Mythology feels.

I loved Julia and Vanessa Kapatelis as written by George Perez because I liked the way they were set up as Diana's surrogate family.

I love Phillipus (Perez), Io (Rucka), Hippolyta, Alkyone as the Amazons who have actual personalities.

I like Tom Tresser because I liked the chemistry between him and Diana.

I dislike Steve Trevor who I don't think has ever had a personality. And when they decided to give him one (in the animated film), it made him boorish and unlikeable.

[shanejayell]

My faves have been, in no particular order, the Gorillas, Vanessa and Julia and the embassy staff.

[turnedm]

Among the favorite supporting cast, I would have to say Julia, Vanessa, Cassie, Mike Indelicato, the goddesses (all of them), Io (where is she?), Turfar and of course Donna.

In the least favorite category, I have to say Sarge Steel and Prof. Sandsmark.

[SJNeal]

Dislike: Indelicato, Trevor Barnes, the Gorillas, Steve Trevor, Helena Sandsmark.

Like: Tom Tresser (mostly for eye candy purposes :tongue: ), Cassie Sandsmark.

LOVE: Donna Troy, Etta Candy, The Kapetelis, The Embassy staff (Argh! Why can't I remember the name of the bald guy who's kid got "stoned"?!?! He was a great character!)

[PabloD]

I love Etta Candy as written by Gail because she's so strong and capable.

I loved Diana's embassy staff because they were very well-written and gave the comic a West Wing-meets-Mythology feels.

I loved Julia and Vanessa Kapatelis as written by George Perez because I liked the way they were set up as Diana's surrogate family.

I love Phillipus (Perez), Io (Rucka), Hippolyta, Alkyone as the Amazons who have actual personalities.

I like Tom Tresser because I liked the chemistry between him and Diana.

I'm mostly in agreement here. I also like Toliphar and the talking gorillas.

If I had to choose a least favorite supporting character, I'd probably have to go with Sarge Steel. Guy just doesn't seem particularly likable or appealing.

[Constantine Drakon]

Ferdinand & the Embassy Staff, Artemis, Phillipus, Hippolyta, Io, Rucka's gods, and Etta.

The rest can go to blazes.

[SJNeal]

Ferdinand & the Embassy Staff, Artemis, Phillipus, Hippolyta, Io, Rucka's gods, and Etta.

The rest can go to blazes.

Ooh how could I forget them! Definitely my favorite portrayal of Diana's pantheon, ever!!! How great would an Olympus mini by Rucka have been?! It'd be like a Greek Melrose Place! :biggrin:

[Evil Eleanor]

The embassy staff, especially Ferdinand and Leslie.
Etta.
Artemis, Io, Phillipus, Hippolyta.
The "Dome Creatures".
Pre-Johns Wonder Girl/Cassie.

[tangentman]

My Favorites

The Kapatelis family--Julia & Vanessa provided a touchstone for humanity when Diana first arrived. Julia was Diana's substitute mother in "Man's World", so much so that Hippolyta envied her. Vanessa was the first child Diana had ever seen, not to mention a "little sister". Many powerful stories came from Diana's relationships with these two remarkable women.

Etta Candy--from "Sassy Sorority Girl" of the 40's to the compulsive bon-bon nibbler of the Bronze Age to the military "Girl Friday" to "Sassy Military Hero" we love today, I've always enjoyed Etta! One of the things I've always loved about Etta was the way she'd been established as being fairly strong even before meeting Diana. This certainly shone through in the Post-Crisis redux, with Etta as a competent (if often insecure) Air Force officer. She may have fretted over her weight, but put her in a crisis, and her strength immediately came to the fore. Easily a standout among the supporting cast!

Hippolyta, Donna Troy, Artemis, & The Amazons--Diana's family, her true "home". I've always enjoyed seeing the Amazons, particularly the more enterprising mother & sisters! Jiminez, Rucka, Perez, & Simone wove wonderful stories with the Amazons. I hope we'll see more in the year to come!

Ferdinand & Leslie--I'm a sucker for star-crossed romance. I loved Leslie's "redemption", not to mention the brilliance of a Kithotaur-as-chef!

Paula Von Gunther--A character who shows the core power of Wonder Woman, namely, her ability to inspire & redeem!. The former Baroness went from ruthless arch-enemy to benevolent BFF, thanks to the efforts of Wonder Woman. As I've often said, Superman & Batman NEVER managed a victory of this scale!

The Holliday Girls (aka Beeta Lambda Sorority)--Etta's flamboyant, raucous sorority sisters, these girls fearlessly followed Wonder Woman into battle with fists at the ready and a song on their lips. Frankly, I'd like this concept even more than funny, talking gorillas...

I-Ching, Johnny Double, & Catwoman--I liked the eccentric, groovy craziness of the blind martial arts sage, hard-luck detective, and a jet-setting thief hanging out with non-powered Diana Prince. Goofy, slick fun--and I really, REALLY would have liked seeing Catwoman become part of Wonder Woman's supporting cast, even occasionally! Note that Selena's early signs of reformation showed through in Wonder Woman, first, IIRC! Hmmm....


Characters I Could Have Gone The Rest Of My Life Without Seeing & Been Perfectly Happy

Helena Sandsmark--Dumpster-diving edition of Julia, with none of the latter's charm, class or resourcefulness. Whiny, troublesome, more of an albatross than support. It took Peter David to even make this character marginally readable!

Mike Shorr--Again, Byrne ripped off existing characters by giving us his take on Ed Indelicato, down to the unrequited crush. Ed was tedious enough, but Mike came off too much like a Marty Stu for my taste.

Pre-Gail Tom Tresser--Asinine frat boy who was an insult to the memory of a character I'd actually liked in Suicide Squad. Hated what Heinberg & Picoult did with--or should I say, to--him.

I won't say I don't like the Embassy staff, but I wasn't crazy about the "West Wing" feel of the early Rucka run. I'm probably a minority on that point, but I found those stories bordering on "bromide".

[raporfest]

Favorites: Julia and Vanessa Kapatelis, Myndi Mayer, Ferdinand

Least Favorite: Cassie Sandsmark (most especially Geoff Johns version), Helena Sandsmark, Nemesis

[Mars Getsoian]

Etta and the Beeta Lambdas are easy awesome for pre-Crisis, but that's Diana's heritage, not Diana now. For the Diana of today, excluding amazons:

Ferdinand is at the top. He was absolutely perfect. Myndi runs a close second. I like the Sandsmarks quite a bit, though I agree with tangentman that any virtue Helena has, PAD gave her, and I can only like Cassie by ignoring everything that's happened to her since PAD left. Julia and Vanessa are alright - I liked what they meant for the story more than them for themselves, if that makes sense; likewise most of the non-Ferdinand embassy staff, though I have a kind of inexplicable love for Rachel, Diana's PA. (She's got like, three lines, but they're snarky!)

I absolutely unconditionally loathe Ed and his cronies, Mike and his cronies, and Tresser and Steel and their cronies. Don't much care for Trevor Barnes, either.

The gorillas alternately crack me up and annoy me, depending on the tides more than anything they're actually doing. Post-ICk Etta I'm undecided on; I hated the character pre-Gail not just for being such a pathetic millstone, but for not being the awesome incarnate that her original self was... but while the awesome incarnate she's returned to is a marked improvement, I'm having some issues being comfortable with them suddenly being long-time BFF in the face of twenty years of very contrary characterization.

[ismlatbri]

Out of the many posts, this one attract my attention. I believe it is possible for anyone to participate.
Excellent ! I like it very much.

[Gail Simone]

This is tough because I'm so biased.

Hm. For me to write, Hippolyta, no question, and I adore Etta. The Gorilla Knights are fun and I know I'm going to like Steve.

All time, I like Julia and Vanessa, and Ferdinand, probably.


But yeah, I could write an Hippolyta book forever.

[JKCarrier]

Favorite: Golden age Etta, by a mile.

Least favorite: The Kapatelis girls. Every scene with them was like something out of a bad Lifetime Network movie.

[Black Atom]

Favorite: Golden age Etta, by a mile.

Least favorite: The Kapatelis girls. Every scene with them was like something out of a bad Lifetime Network movie.

Wow, I couldn't agree more. Never cared much for the Kapatelses. Moreover, I think you could get rid of them forever and the book wouldn't miss a beat.

As for characters I do like, Hippolyta (if she counts) and current Etta are quite nice.

[BnL]

I like Julia and Vanessa, but the way the book has been written post-Perez, it's been made nearly impossible for them to have a place in the book at this point. And it's shitty of Diana to have just abandoned them, basically. So we're stuck in a place where Diana looks bad for having left them behind, and it's not really feasible to find a place for them in the book. Her supporting cast is already crowded, and we're stuck with Cassie and Helena instead, who serve the same role, but with Cassie being the new Wonder Girl making her role a lot more permanent and important, even though she and her mother are inferior characters to Julia and Vanessa.

Honestly, now that I think about it, I think when they relaunched the title after COIE, the Julia character should have actually been named Etta Candy. That way, we wouldn't have to deal with the horrible Bronze Age version of Etta, who I never liked. Vanessa would be her daughter who would later become Wonder Girl, and then we could kill three birds with one stone. Both characters would be vital parts of the WW mythos (Etta and Wonder Girl), there would be no need for Cassie and Helena to come along later to overcrowd the supporting cast, and we'd have an interesting new take on Etta Candy.

[TripleX]

HATE - Steve Trevor, Mike Schor- Whoever called him "Marty Stu" was right on the money, V3 Etta- She's contrived and her "WooWoos" seem forced, Vanessa- I hated her since she was pissed at Diana for Barry liking her, I was like "Duh b*tch, have you looked in a fu@%ing mirror? Do something about that hair" and she could'a been Wonder Girl if her inept @ss had shown any type of gumption, V3 Donna Troy- Once a supervillain has you knocked out and on a string around their neck it's time to hang up the tights, Helena Sandsmark- She's always in the way and there's something slutty about her sleeping with Zeus

LOVE- Julia- She's smart and tough, Chiron- He was one of the few supporting characters I felt was Diana's peer, he'd seen it all and was a good cutman to have in your corner, Ferdinand, Myndi Mayer- What's not to love? Artemis- Again, what's not to love? Gun toting Etta Candy with the curly perm, Rucka's Athena- She had all the bases covered, Rucka's Ares- Red eyes, battle scars and dressed in black, by far the scariest version, Indelicato- He was so grimey and 80's pornstar like, I could see him with Diana 'cause opposites attract, Hippolyta- She's righteous, Io- She was sweet, plus she made the PDR, Hoppy- (Yes Hoppy) I know that lady without an education, that works in fast food, has kids and a weave ponytail, She reminds me of a crackhead named Sunshine that used to do my braids and had an Uzi on the coffee table cause her son sold drugs, she'd do one continuous braid that criss crossed itself all over my head like a Cosby sweater...ahhhhh the 90's

[suedenim]

I really like the Golden Age Etta, though I also wish her candy obsession was dialed down just a notch or two. And the other Holliday Girls! I'm not sure they could be modernized in any way that wouldn't be grating in one way or another, but I'd love to see Gail give it a shot!

[jason_w]

Absolutely hated Trevor Barnes as well as Vanessa. I used to hate Cassie, but I've started to come around.

I can tolerate Donna Troy, but I think she's a bit overrated and hasn't been interesting since the Wolfman/Perez run on NTT.

I love Hippolyta, Artemis, and Phillipus. I'd like to see a story featuring just these three.

[Mars Getsoian]

Hoppy- (Yes Hoppy)

Hoppy was pretty awesome, gotta agree.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

The gorillas are my absolute favorite support characters of all times.
Not Wonder Woman´s support characters, mind you, but DCU support characters, period.
Nothing comes even close to their sheer awesomeness, they should have a title or a mini of their own.

Least favorite... Steve Trevor. Sorry, I was never too keen of cardboard cutouts.

[Shatagni]

Didn't even know this was bumped:biggrin:

I'd like to one day see some kind of reunion where all of WW's supporting characters in current DC continuity gather in one room. Imagine the awkward moments! Ferdinand interacting with the Gorillas would make my day.

[suedenim]

I love the gorillas! Like my grandpappy always said, ain't nothing you can't make better by adding monkeys!*

One thing I'm curious about, though - Gail, what thought pattern led to the idea in the first place? Despite its obvious rightness, it probably wouldn't occur to most people that Wonder Woman is a comic in dire need of monkeys.




* - Yeah, gorillas are apes, not monkeys, but my grandpappy also knew that "monkey" is a superior and inherently funny word, so there.

[tangentman]

I'm calling out Black Atom's comments on Julia & Vanessa. One of the complaints from comics readers who don't really know Wonder Woman is that "she's too perfect, she's not human enough[/i]." Whenever I read such comments, I immediately recognize people who don't know a DAMN thing about Wonder Woman! lol

When Diana first arrived in Man's World, she was not only a foreigner, but a woman arguably still in her late teens, and centuries out of touch with the world. Her relationships with Julia & Vanessa provided a touchstone with the modern age. Because of Julia's help, Diana quickly mastered English, and learned about "Patriarch's World". Instead of depending on the reactionary legends of her Amazon sisters, Diana learned from actual research and firsthand experience; the latter being lessons Julia was qualified to impart.

Diana not only learned facts, though; she also learned about the customs of the human race from which her mother's people had long segregated themselves. It was from Julia & Vanessa that Diana learned about the traditional family model involving fathers, brothers, and sons. Hearing tales about Julia's late husband, seeing the impact of his death on the Kapatelis women, gave Diana emotional insights into the relationships between men & women that dealings with Steve Trevor alone could never cover. Confused by romance, Diana often sought advice from Julia--Hell, she even approached Vanessa because the younger girl had more experience with boys! :biggrin:

Living with the Kapatelis family taught Diana more about the human experience than she probably would have learned hiding behind a "Diana Prince" identity early on. Her experiences in that household prepared her for her new world. These same experiences also provided funny, telling, often poignant moments that revealed layers of ALL characters concerned. To compare them with the fluff of the typical "Lifetime" movie dishonestly trivializes the wonderful stories told by Perez.

Not only that, but Julia was just a damned cool character to read about! I found her witty, intelligent, funny, fierce, strong, and one of the most well-rounded characters to EVER grace a Wonder Woman page. Even moreso than Etta, whom I love profoundly. Julia showed a devoted love for her family (including Diana) rarely seen in comics. Threaten Vanessa or Diana, and you saw a protective rage that not even the most ferocious mother grizzly bear could probably match! Julia also showed Diana--and us--the frailty of human life: single motherhood, widowhood, conflict between professional & domestic obligations, aging (menopause), struggles of faith. As a character, I think Julia showed a depth, wisdom, and sense of humor you simply would never find in one of those maudlin "Lifetime" movies.

Vanessa also served a valuable purpose. Yes, she was often annoying back in the day. Her self-centeredness, obsessiveness, shallowness, and petulance could induce extreme teeth-grinding. However, I think Vanessa served to remind us of how insufferable many of us were in adolescence. She shows the errors of youth, the awkwardness of that tumultuous transition to adulthood. While not an easy character to read at times, she was a refreshingly honest one.


TripleX: I love Hoppy, too! If we caught up with a supporting cast from the past, she's one of the first I'd want to see. I've often said that I would like a story that showed Hoppy's daughter graduating college--thanks largely to the back payments of child support that Wonder Woman won for her friend. Maybe someday that story will happen...

[Deus ex Chris]

The embassy staff and Rucka's gods are my favorites by far. My least favorites are probably the gorillas, and I really don't care for Vanessa and Julia.

[BnL]

Vanessa also served a valuable purpose. Yes, she was often annoying back in the day. Her self-centeredness, obsessiveness, shallowness, and petulance could induce extreme teeth-grinding. However, I think Vanessa served to remind us of how insufferable many of us were in adolescence. She shows the errors of youth, the awkwardness of that tumultuous transition to adulthood. While not an easy character to read at times, she was a refreshingly honest one.

It's odd, but even with all of Vanessa's faults, I never disliked her. I think it takes a talented storyteller to craft a character who has such flaws, but still remains likable. I'd read her treating a friend badly, or being selfish, or acting like an obnoxious teenager--but even knowing that she was making mistakes, I couldn't help but like her anyway. And I definitely think there was room for her to grow and mature (which we saw flashes of in WML's run, but no one really picked up the torch after that).

[Black Atom]

I'm calling out Black Atom's comments on Julia & Vanessa. One of the complaints from comics readers who don't really know Wonder Woman is that "she's too perfect, she's not human enough[/i]." Whenever I read such comments, I immediately recognize people who don't know a DAMN thing about Wonder Woman! lol

When Diana first arrived in Man's World, she was not only a foreigner, but a woman arguably still in her late teens, and centuries out of touch with the world. Her relationships with Julia & Vanessa provided a touchstone with the modern age. Because of Julia's help, Diana quickly mastered English, and learned about "Patriarch's World". Instead of depending on the reactionary legends of her Amazon sisters, Diana learned from actual research and firsthand experience; the latter being lessons Julia was qualified to impart.

Diana not only learned facts, though; she also learned about the customs of the human race from which her mother's people had long segregated themselves. It was from Julia & Vanessa that Diana learned about the traditional family model involving fathers, brothers, and sons. Hearing tales about Julia's late husband, seeing the impact of his death on the Kapatelis women, gave Diana emotional insights into the relationships between men & women that dealings with Steve Trevor alone could never cover. Confused by romance, Diana often sought advice from Julia--Hell, she even approached Vanessa because the younger girl had more experience with boys! :biggrin:

Living with the Kapatelis family taught Diana more about the human experience than she probably would have learned hiding behind a "Diana Prince" identity early on. Her experiences in that household prepared her for her new world. These same experiences also provided funny, telling, often poignant moments that revealed layers of ALL characters concerned. To compare them with the fluff of the typical "Lifetime" movie dishonestly trivializes the wonderful stories told by Perez.

Not only that, but Julia was just a damned cool character to read about! I found her witty, intelligent, funny, fierce, strong, and one of the most well-rounded characters to EVER grace a Wonder Woman page. Even moreso than Etta, whom I love profoundly. Julia showed a devoted love for her family (including Diana) rarely seen in comics. Threaten Vanessa or Diana, and you saw a protective rage that not even the most ferocious mother grizzly bear could probably match! Julia also showed Diana--and us--the frailty of human life: single motherhood, widowhood, conflict between professional & domestic obligations, aging (menopause), struggles of faith. As a character, I think Julia showed a depth, wisdom, and sense of humor you simply would never find in one of those maudlin "Lifetime" movies.

Vanessa also served a valuable purpose. Yes, she was often annoying back in the day. Her self-centeredness, obsessiveness, shallowness, and petulance could induce extreme teeth-grinding. However, I think Vanessa served to remind us of how insufferable many of us were in adolescence. She shows the errors of youth, the awkwardness of that tumultuous transition to adulthood. While not an easy character to read at times, she was a refreshingly honest one.


Keep in mind, this purely just a matter of taste on my part. I just happened to find them oppressively boring. Moreover, those character moments didn't come off to me as terribly genuine, but rather like cliches of how women would interact ("Lifetime" movie seems accurate).
The hugging and crying--ugh, what an estrogen fest.

To tackle your point about Diana's humanity, I have reservations about the decision to portray Diana as so doe-eyed and ethereal that she seemed, if not inhuman, like a being from another world (think Enchanted) and having to have her human experiences come via cyphers like the Kapatelises. To point, I question the logic behind your assertion that WW learned more about relationships from Julia talking about her husband than she ever would have by actually being in one. As counter-intuitive as that is, even if it were true, I'm sure I know which situation would've been a more entertaining read.

[tangentman]

Keep in mind, this purely just a matter of taste on my part. I just happened to find them oppressively boring. Moreover, those character moments didn't come off to me as terribly genuine, but rather like cliches of how women would interact ("Lifetime" movie seems accurate).
The hugging and crying--ugh, what an estrogen fest.

Because Harvard professors who've traveled the world researching cultures of antiquity, bore a child later in life, lost a husband, fought gods & monsters alongside the premier super-heroine of her universe, and was the spiritual daughter of a mythical race are a dime a dozen? Your definition of cliche astonishes, to say the least! I don't know about you, but across the span of my own life, I've seen plenty of real women hug and cry. Are you sure you're not confusing your inaccurate "Lifetime movie" comment with behaviors drawn from real life? You conveniently left out the full ranges of human behavior & feeling demonstrated by the Kapatelises: laughing, raging, infatuation, questioning faith, standing up for principles, establishing & losing friendships, buying into media propaganda about "womanhood", questioning & defying the same, fighting to protect loved ones...among many more. There seems to be a wide disconnect between your perception & the reality of the Perez stories.

It's okay to admit that you don't get the characters, or their appeal. However, keep in mind that Julia & Vanessa also played into the principles of Wonder Woman's own creator by providing examples of "feminine strengths"--loving hearts, compassion, the ability to embrace "feminine" emotion over cold, "masculine" logic.


To tackle your point about Diana's humanity, I have reservations about the decision to portray Diana as so doe-eyed and ethereal that she seemed, if not inhuman, like a being from another world (think Enchanted) and having to have her human experiences come via ciphers like the Kapatelises. To point, I question the logic behind your assertion that WW learned more about relationships from Julia talking about her husband than she ever would have by actually being in one. As counter-intuitive as that is, even if it were true, I'm sure I know which situation would've been a more entertaining read.

Actually, the WW mythos tried that for over 40 years with the "Girl Meets Boy" paradigm of the Steve Trevor romance, and gained little ground. I don't know how entertaining you found stories where Diana came to Man's World with an immediate grasp of American culture, language, and slang. If you didn't like Diana's naivete, that's fair. However, many of us found it refreshing, especially in light of what came before.

It also seemed more honest--a foreigner with no prior experience of American culture would indeed find it overwhelming, confusing, even frightening at times. I think that compelling stories arose from that particular conflict. I enjoyed seeing Diana learn about the world from "the ground up".

As to your remarks about my "counter-intuitive logic", I'll reply by pointing out that sociological thought stresses the power of certain social imprints on adult development. The family is an important source of such imprints. Diana's family of origin failed to prepare her for the world she'd entered; they only offered dire cautionary tales, gender stereotypes, and near-superstition. Diana's family of choice provided a counter-influence on the notions she'd acquired from Themyscira. Learning about male-female relationships from a trusted adult authority isn't "counter-intuitive logic" at work, it's basic human learning at work.

[Black Atom]

It seems like you're twisting the meanings of my words, probably unintentionally. I'll try to clarify my points.


Because Harvard professors who've traveled the world researching cultures of antiquity, bore a child later in life, lost a husband, fought gods & monsters alongside the premier super-heroine of her universe, and was the spiritual daughter of a mythical race are a dime a dozen? Your definition of cliche astonishes, to say the least!

I don't think I did say that. The charactarization and the interactions is what struck me as uninspired cliches.


I don't know about you, but across the span of my own life, I've seen plenty of real women hug and cry. Are you sure you're not confusing your inaccurate "Lifetime movie" comment with behaviors drawn from real life? You conveniently left out the full ranges of human behavior & feeling demonstrated by the Kapatelises: laughing, raging, infatuation, questioning faith, standing up for principles, establishing & losing friendships, buying into media propaganda about "womanhood", questioning & defying the same, fighting to protect loved ones...among many more. There seems to be a wide disconnect between your perception & the reality of the Perez stories.

That's fine, I guess. Like I said, it's a matter of taste. If you really enjoyed that stuff, then I certainly can't begrudge you that. To me it came off as boring, forced and heavy handed, which is how I felt about quite a lot of the elements of the Perez reboot--like he was trying too hard to sell us on certain concepts (like feminism).


It's okay to admit that you don't get the characters, or their appeal. However, keep in mind that Julia & Vanessa also played into the principles of Wonder Woman's own creator by providing examples of "feminine strengths"--loving hearts, compassion, the ability to embrace "feminine" emotion over cold, "masculine" logic.

Actually, the WW mythos tried that for over 40 years with the "Girl Meets Boy" paradigm of the Steve Trevor romance, and gained little ground. I don't know how entertaining you found stories where Diana came to Man's World with an immediate grasp of American culture, language, and slang. If you didn't like Diana's naivete, that's fair. However, many of us found it refreshing, especially in light of what came before.

Why do you say it gained little ground? Surely, the “girl meets boy” version is the most iconic take on Wonder Woman’s origin. Contrarily, the Kapatelises barely survived after the Perez run. If you asked someone if the Wonder Woman story could work without the Kapatelises, they’d say “Who are the Kapatelises?”


It also seemed more honest--a foreigner with no prior experience of American culture would indeed find it overwhelming, confusing, even frightening at times. I think that compelling stories arose from that particular conflict. I enjoyed seeing Diana learn about the world from "the ground up".

That's okay. I didn't. I do like the idea of Diana being a bit naïve, but she didn’t come off like a real person. She reminded me of the mermaid from splash or a Tolkien elf or something.


As to your remarks about my "counter-intuitive logic", I'll reply by pointing out that sociological thought stresses the power of certain social imprints on adult development. The family is an important source of such imprints. Diana's family of origin failed to prepare her for the world she'd entered; they only offered dire cautionary tales, gender stereotypes, and near-superstition. Diana's family of choice provided a counter-influence on the notions she'd acquired from Themyscira. Learning about male-female relationships from a trusted adult authority isn't "counter-intuitive logic" at work, it's basic human learning at work.

That makes sense if your goal is a Wonder Woman comic that reads like a sociological exercise and not, you know, a superhero adventure. Which was, in my opinion, the problem. You don’t really need the Kapatelises. The fun and drama of Wonder Woman’s fish out of water experience is watching her figure stuff out on her own, with a few bumps along the way. By playing Diana’s acclimation so literally, going so far, even, to create the perfect agent to help her re-socialize (a woman who’s an expert on BOTH cultures) her situation becomes so specific that it’s, by and large, un-relatable. It would’ve more entertaining, in my opinion, to use Diana’s naivete to point out the absurdity of the customs we take for granted, while at the same time having her duplicate the sort of awkwardness all of us feel in certain situations with lots of different types of people. She didn’t need a secret identity to do that.

[Franklin]

I have never hated a WW-supporting character more than Glitch, the Gremlin. I liked some other things Mishkin brought to the book, like Keith Griggs & Sofia (although she may have been a Roy Thomas idea - I know she was introduced when Gene Colan was doing the art, but I think Thomas was gone by then, or at least Mishkin was co-plotting), but lord, lord, lord I hated that Gremlin. At least, I think it was Mishkin who introduced the Gremlin. I think the way I felt about Glitch matched the way Maplecroft feels about Nemesis. I'd even take the simpering Earth-2 rendition of Etta that Harris (or was it Conway?) gave us over Glitch.

I love Etta when she's portrayed with gumption, I liked Julia & Nessie, as well as Cassie (could do without her mom, except when she's written by Peter David), and I usually love Hippolyte. There's also a special place in my comic-loving heart for Hoppy, though it's hard for me to explain why.

[lariatofhestia]

Ferdinand & the Embassy Staff, Artemis, Phillipus, Hippolyta, Io, Rucka's gods, and Etta.

The rest can go to blazes.


Thank you. My sentiments exactly. :biggrin: