Latest Copy-Cat Move? Necrosha = Blackest Night?

[Tesseract]

It is a well-known, and hopefully not too controversial, claim that there is quite a bit of "borrowing" in the industry. I feel (ignoring the pre-Golden Age, early Golden Age, and (to a cetain extent) early Silver Age eras, during which the industry was first learning what works and later filtering through tons of new ideas that were mostly a combination of previous ones) that in modern times especially we have an unbelievable amount of copy-catting between not just little guys trying to make a name for themselves by taking ideas that are known to work, but quite a bit between the Big Two. I believe this is an inherent part of the world of comics. However, each time it happens, we have fanboys on one side bitching about how the other company stole an idea. Then, the next time it happens and it ends up that the other company releases something first, the other side's fanboys pip up. The most recent major example I can think of is Flash: Rebirth versus Captain America: Reborn. Before that, it was Bruce Wayne's "death" versus Captain America's. Alas both times, and each time it took place before, criticisms arose about idea-stealing.

With the most recent example almost upon us, Blackest Night versus Necrosha, I just wanted to pose the question(s) to the great fans on these boards: Is one company in particular taking more than it is creating itself? Is copy-catting truly a necessary evil within the industry? Is there even a correct answer here? I just thought it might be interesting to think/talk about.

Oh and the reason I posted this on the DC boards and not those of Marvel is because, well, Blackest Night came first. :wink:

[Verminous]

Well the seeds for Necrosha were laid back in New X-Men and has been an integral part of X-Force from the beginning. So I don't believe it's copycating just coincidence. We don't even know what the Necrosha story involves yet.

[Karl O'Neill]

As Sherlock Homles would say:

"There is nothing new under the sun" "Everything has been done before".

Blackest Night will clearly be better. But I don't see any harm in this crossover either.

[Crimson]

Well the seeds for Necrosha were laid back in New X-Men and has been an integral part of X-Force from the beginning. So I don't believe it's copycating just coincidence. We don't even know what the Necrosha story involves yet.

Exactly! Both of these stories have been building up for years, it's just Johns was a bit more blatent (The hand coming out of the grave is more then a hint) where New X-Men you couldn't really guess until you knew what was coming. If you look back now the hints are there.

[joao_miranda]

Exactly! Both of these stories have been building up for years, it's just Johns was a bit more blatent (The hand coming out of the grave is more then a hint) where New X-Men you couldn't really guess until you knew what was coming. If you look back now the hints are there.

But are they really hints? Or were just loose ends that someone decided to tie this way?

Because, for example, in the way Johns told the GL story, people could say that there are hints ever since Emerald Twillight. Or since the original Alan Moore story.

I normally like to think that Marvel doesn't copy DC and vice-versa. But releasing something called Necrosha in the same time DC is releasing its long-awaited Blackest Night doesn't seem anything more than just that: rip-off.

[Werehunter]

I normally like to think that Marvel doesn't copy DC and vice-versa. But releasing something called Necrosha in the same time DC is releasing its long-awaited Blackest Night doesn't seem anything more than just that: rip-off.

But then people could point to Marvel Zombies and say Blackest Night is just ripping that off and then others could point to Walking Dead and say Marvel Zombies just ripped that off, and so on and so on.

[joao_miranda]

But then people could point to Marvel Zombies and say Blackest Night is just ripping that off and then others could point to Walking Dead and say Marvel Zombies just ripped that off, and so on and so on.

Yeah, but that is the overall concept of zombies. Marvel didn't invent that in Marvel Zombies, neither did Walking Dead. So the fact that DC uses this old concept in a new way is not a copy of Marvel or Image.

What I see as rip-off is lauching a series with the same premise of the one DC is lauching at the same time. Bringing back dead heroes in continuity.

[celticguy]

wow next think you know movies studios will have duo Wyatt Earp movies or Robin Hood movies, or a bunch or Harry Potter wannabes or a bunch of imitation 007's.

I don't even know what Necrosha is.

[Green Griffin]

I Think it's just poor timing for Necrosha. But they are both two diff stoires.

1.) BN involves the whole DCU, Nercrosha will only involve X-Force and New Mutants.

2.) One of these stories can't be solved by having the heroes Hack and Slash there way.

3.) One will have really great art while the other nobody will be able to tell WTF is going on. (It's what happened to the X-Force issues of Messiah War.)

[Karl O'Neill]

I don't even know what Necrosha is.

It's an x-men/force CROSSOVER.

All you need to know is: THE DEAD WILL RISE!:biggrin:

[celticguy]

It's an x-men/force CROSSOVER.

All you need to know is: THE DEAD WILL RISE!:biggrin:


as is there habit to do.

[Karl O'Neill]

I wonder if they get black power rings?

[Kylun123]

As Sherlock Homles would say:

"There is nothing new under the sun" "Everything has been done before".

I always thought that was Ecclesiastes . . .

[Dave H]

But are they really hints? Or were just loose ends that someone decided to tie this way?

Because, for example, in the way Johns told the GL story, people could say that there are hints ever since Emerald Twillight. Or since the original Alan Moore story.

I normally like to think that Marvel doesn't copy DC and vice-versa. But releasing something called Necrosha in the same time DC is releasing its long-awaited Blackest Night doesn't seem anything more than just that: rip-off.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22418

[Tesseract]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22418

The beginning of that article includes what is unfortunately the generic response we get from the creative teams behind these "copy cat" moments: "We didn't do it on purpose, and we don't care what the competition is doing." That is, quite frankly, bull****. Just as Miller and Budweiser release new commercials and products based on what the other is doing, so do the Big Two. In addition, whenever there are interviews about this type of thing, nobody ever addresses the bigger picture, aka what I was trying to present to everyone with my original question. Oh well, the cycle continues.

[Raharu]

But are they really hints? Or were just loose ends that someone decided to tie this way?

Because, for example, in the way Johns told the GL story, people could say that there are hints ever since Emerald Twillight. Or since the original Alan Moore story.

I normally like to think that Marvel doesn't copy DC and vice-versa. But releasing something called Necrosha in the same time DC is releasing its long-awaited Blackest Night doesn't seem anything more than just that: rip-off.

Then they would be wrong. There's a big difference between dropping hints and taking something from previous stories to fit what you're doing. When Moore and Marz wrote their stories they weren't dropping hints to this current Blackest Nights event as neither of them probably knew Johns even existed at the time and/or knew/cared what the hell would be happening in 10-20 years later at DC.

And no, I doubt it's rip-off. Just as I highly doubt Brubaker and Morrison were ripping each other with the whole Cap/Batman analogies nonsense that people like to throw out. It's not like the dead rising is a hell of an original idea anyway. I swear people just look for controversy where there is none:rolleyes:

[joao_miranda]

Then they would be wrong. There's a big difference between dropping hints and taking something from previous stories to fit what you're doing. When Moore and Marz wrote their stories they weren't dropping hints to this current Blackest Nights event as neither of them probably knew Johns even existed at the time and/or knew/cared what the hell would be happening in 10-20 years later at DC.

And no, I doubt it's rip-off. Just as I highly doubt Brubaker and Morrison were ripping each other with the whole Cap/Batman analogies nonsense that people like to throw out. It's not like the dead rising is a hell of an original idea anyway. I swear people just look for controversy where there is none:rolleyes:

No one is saying that Geoff Johns invented zombies. But the timing seems to much of a coincidence. Blackest Night has been announced for more then two years and Marvel waits until now to launch their X-zombies story? Please!

[Raharu]

Please, damn nothing. You know these plans and stories aren't exactly spur of the moment. I'd say it's been talked about and planned for awhile. It's not like Fraction and co. sat up the mourning of the conference and said, 'Guys, we got rip off Blackest Night with a zombie related X-Men story, get Joe on the phone!'

Also, someone pointed out where there's been hints of this for quite awhile.

[joao_miranda]

Please, damn nothing. You know these plans and stories aren't exactly spur of the moment. I'd say it's been talked about and planned for awhile. It's not like Fraction and co. sat up the mourning of the conference and said, 'Guys, we got rip off Blackest Night with a zombie related X-Men story, get Joe on the phone!'

Also, someone pointed out where there's been hints of this for quite awhile.

Please, yes. They had years to put the story out and it ends up by coming out at the same time that Blackest Night?

[Raharu]

Please, yes. They had years to put the story out and it ends up by coming out at the same time that Blackest Night?

Yeah, and I guess you think Brubaker was ripping off Morrison too or Morrison was ripping off Brubaker or whatever nonsense they are trying to pedal? Please, indeed:rolleyes: Stuff like that happens sometimes. Even if they took the zombie aspect from BN (which I honestly doubt), that's it. For all we know it'll be a totally different take. If you can come back after both events are over, and bring indisputable panel by panel, dialog by dialog analogies then that's something. At most now you have a "borrowed" idea, a borrowed idea that's been done several times, in several different ways, in the past. I'll tell you right now, if that's what you got, you got shit

You do know that there was a story in the late 90s in GL where Nekron revived the dead GL Corps with his own lantern rings. Sounds way more like a rip-off story than Necrosha does. Maybe we need to start a thread about how Johns is ripping whoever wrote that story off, and how Fraction is really ripping that off.

[Werehunter]

Yeah, but that is the overall concept of zombies. Marvel didn't invent that in Marvel Zombies, neither did Walking Dead. So the fact that DC uses this old concept in a new way is not a copy of Marvel or Image.

What I see as rip-off is lauching a series with the same premise of the one DC is lauching at the same time. Bringing back dead heroes in continuity.

So the only reason this is a copy and the others are not, is because it takes place in the main universe? Please tell me your kidding. It sounds like your stretching to show why one is a rip off and the other isn't.

For the record, I don't think anyone is ripping off anyone in the way your suggesting.

Please, yes. They had years to put the story out and it ends up by coming out at the same time that Blackest Night?

And yet Johns has been working on leading up to Blackest Night for years, with the only real hint about zombies coming from the preview at the end of S war a little more then a year ago. Other then that, nothing expect for the actual zombies rising at the start of Blackest Night would suggest zombies play a major part. Some aspect of death, yes. But not zombies specifically.

With so many things going on in the X books at the moment, it's not surprising that they had to wait for the move to San Fran, the Messiah War, and Utopia to be over before putting Necrosha out.

[joao_miranda]

Yeah, and I guess you think Brubaker was ripping off Morrison too or Morrison was ripping off Brubaker or whatever nonsense they are trying to pedal? Please, indeed:rolleyes: Stuff like that happens sometimes. Even if they took the zombie aspect from BN (which I honestly doubt), that's it. For all we know it'll be a totally different take. If you can come back after both events are over, and bring indisputable panel by panel, dialog by dialog analogies then that's something. At most now you have a "borrowed" idea, a borrowed idea that's been done several times, in several different ways, in the past. I'll tell you right now, if that's what you got, you got shit

You do know that there was a story in the late 90s in GL where Nekron revived the dead GL Corps with his own lantern rings. Sounds way more like a rip-off story than Necrosha does. Maybe we need to start a thread about how Johns is ripping whoever wrote that story off, and how Fraction is really ripping that off.

Both Morrison and Brubaker have been working their ideas, by themselfes, for years. In that case, I don't think no one is ripping off no one.

Now, since 2007, Blackest Night was announced as the "Dead shall rise". During that period, we hear nothing from Marvel. Now, suddently, after BN starts, Marvel announces a series with the same premise. See the differences?

And how is Johns ripping off that story? That's part of the background and history that he's using. What the hell are you talking about?

[Raharu]

Both Morrison and Brubaker have been working their ideas, by themselfes, for years. In that case, I don't think no one is ripping off no one.

Now, since 2007, Blackest Night was announced as the "Dead shall rise". During that period, we hear nothing from Marvel. Now, suddently, after BN starts, Marvel announces a series with the same premise. See the differences?

Okay, so see this:

Stuff like that happens sometimes. Even if they took the zombie aspect from BN (which I honestly doubt), that's it. For all we know it'll be a totally different take. If you can come back after both events are over, and bring indisputable panel by panel, dialog by dialog analogies then that's something. At most now you have a "borrowed" idea, a borrowed idea that's been done several times, in several different ways, in the past. I'll tell you right now, if that's what you got, you got shit

and also this:

And yet Johns has been working on leading up to Blackest Night for years, with the only real hint about zombies coming from the preview at the end of S war a little more then a year ago. Other then that, nothing expect for the actual zombies rising at the start of Blackest Night would suggest zombies play a major part. Some aspect of death, yes. But not zombies specifically.

With so many things going on in the X books at the moment, it's not surprising that they had to wait for the move to San Fran, the Messiah War, and Utopia to be over before putting Necrosha out.

Boom, this guy got it way better than I did. What you may not know is that the X-franchise is in constant event mode. Unlike GL, which was building and building, the X-titles don't have the time to do that right now. This idea could have been in the pot for a year or two, but during the 5 events or so that came before it there really was no need to hype it that far back.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the main villain(s) involved have been known to fool around with rising the dead before. Now, that I may be wrong on as I'm not too well versed on X-lore, but I have heard that.

And how is Johns ripping off that story? That's part of the background and history that he's using. What the hell are you talking about?

Wow, *swoosh* I guess.

I wasn't saying that Johns was, I was being mostly sarcastic. It just goes to show you how truly unoriginal this idea really is. All we know about Necrosha at this point is that it will involve dead heroes rising from the grave. Been done before, and if you wanted to get really technical with it seems like, from what we know so far, Johns is doing way more ripping than the X-folk. Yes, yes, he's referencing within his own work, but dead heroes coming back via evil lantern rings by the exact same villain? Hmm, interesting, no? Of course, Johns isn't ripping it since the stories seem to be pretty different, but the idea was out there well before Johns thought it up for BN.

After they're done, come back with a panel by panel, dialog by dialog dissection of the works, and see if you can come up with a way that the X-writers ripped off Johns and co. with this. Otherwise, you, and most others with this fingering pointing, are just making rash nonsense accusations.

[HVulpes]

Necrosha seems to be, from the articles and bits I have been reading...

Selene, the Black Queen (an immortal psychic vampire witch mutant) attempt to bring back dead mutants by way of a techno-organic alien (which is the food form of matter once finished by another techno-organic alien, sorta like a fly barfing on food to make food goo it can sip up) in order to cast a major spell killing those undead mutants and more people to turn her divine or something.

Does this sound like anything to do with Nekron's scheme to kill the universe with zombies created by black lantern rings, those zombies killing people with certain emotions by crushing their hearts to power up a master lantern so Nakron can enter and kill the universe? Does it?

[DeadXMan]

Isn't Blackest night stealing the undead superheroes from Millar's Ultimate FF run and the whole Marvel Zombies franchise?

[kalorama]

wow next think you know movies studios will have duo Wyatt Earp movies or Robin Hood movies, or a bunch or Harry Potter wannabes or a bunch of imitation 007's.

Don't forget the dueling Christopher Columbus movies.

[paulski]

Personally, I don't doubt for a minute that Necrosha is Marvel ripping off (or reacting to) DC's Blackest Night. Where comics are concerned, I just don't believe in coincidence anymore.

This one's nearly as blatant as when Identity Disc just happened to come out the same month... no, scratch that - same week! - as Identity Crisis. Sure it had nothing to do with the latter's storyline, but come on! :rolleyes:

You guys want to think otherwise, that's perfectly cool. This is just what I think.

[paulski]

Don't forget the dueling Christopher Columbus movies.

Or kinda like when Armageddon and Deep Impact came out at the same time. Different studios coming up with different asteroid movies at the exact same time? Suuuure... :wink:

[RoguefanAM]

Yeah, I don't see how you can rip off the zombie concept. Besides, why would you want to? It's such an overdone plot. To be honest, I'm not interested in the dead coming back to life. I'm just hoping Selene finally comes off as the bad a** I know she can be.

You know what? I take it back. The dead coming back isn't a 'concept'. It's a darn genre.

[Tesseract]

One of the most important moments in the education of any literary fan, whatever the medium might be, is the understanding of the concept of "archetype". For me, it happened sometime during the middle of high school. Anyway, realizing that all our stories and lessons, no matter what the details are or how unique the manner of telling them is, come from an overall list of human experiences, is a strange feeling. But at the same time, it's a big step in being able to deconstruct the "Big Picture" of almost any piece.

With that said, there's a fine line between stories falling under the same archetype and stories being more or less the same. This seems to be the real issue at hand. But what makes it more volatile is the timing of the examples everyone has been describing. Yes, the archetype of "death and rebirth"/"resurrection" is a common one, not just in comics, but all over the place. However, what happens when two highly similar stories, at least in overall concept, are released a couple of weeks apart from each other? Do the companies pick up on the hints when they're first being dropped? Or maybe there are "moles" in each company whispering things across the aisle as they're being developed? Maybe. That would explain why this all happens then; both DC and Marvel keep tabs on what the other is doing and have events set up throughout certain titles, waiting to be triggered. Once one of them decides the time is right for a specific story and things start to go public, the other gives the go-ahead as well in order to compete, creating a staggered effect and causing us to start complaining about timing and copying.

[DeadXMan]

Or kinda like when Armageddon and Deep Impact came out at the same time. Different studios coming up with different asteroid movies at the exact same time? Suuuure... :wink:

it happens.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058083/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057012/

[Forseti]

X-Force started their 'undead' plotline early 2008 with its very first arc, a reconstituted Bastion reanimating a slew of dead X-men villains with the techno-organic whatchamacallit. Seems like they went from there and ended up with Necrosha.

[Verminous]

Personally, I don't doubt for a minute that Necrosha is Marvel ripping off (or reacting to) DC's Blackest Night. Where comics are concerned, I just don't believe in coincidence anymore.

This one's nearly as blatant as when Identity Disc just happened to come out the same month... no, scratch that - same week! - as Identity Crisis. Sure it had nothing to do with the latter's storyline, but come on! :rolleyes:

You guys want to think otherwise, that's perfectly cool. This is just what I think.

Ok so how do you explain the plot building up in New X-Men! And the fact that the 'Technarchy showed up in the first issue of X-Force 18 months ago?

Look at the facts.

[Raharu]

With that said, there's a fine line between stories falling under the same archetype and stories being more or less the same. This seems to be the real issue at hand. But what makes it more volatile is the timing of the examples everyone has been describing. Yes, the archetype of "death and rebirth"/"resurrection" is a common one, not just in comics, but all over the place. However, what happens when two highly similar stories, at least in overall concept, are released a couple of weeks apart from each other? Do the companies pick up on the hints when they're first being dropped? Or maybe there are "moles" in each company whispering things across the aisle as they're being developed? Maybe. That would explain why this all happens then; both DC and Marvel keep tabs on what the other is doing and have events set up throughout certain titles, waiting to be triggered. Once one of them decides the time is right for a specific story and things start to go public, the other gives the go-ahead as well in order to compete, creating a staggered effect and causing us to start complaining about timing and copying.

See, this is what gets me, too. Necrosha hasn't even been released, yet. You don't know how similar these stories or concepts are. The only thing you know is that they involve raising dead former heroes. You just automatically assume they are 'highly similar stories'.

Like I told the other guy, come back when the story is finished before you start making such claims. At most now we have a borrowed idea of zombies, which in the end, is pretty much nothing since it's such a tired old idea anyway

Ok so how do you explain the plot building up in New X-Men! And the fact that the 'Technarchy showed up in the first issue of X-Force 18 months ago?

Look at the facts.

X-Force started their 'undead' plotline early 2008 with its very first arc, a reconstituted Bastion reanimating a slew of dead X-men villains with the techno-organic whatchamacallit. Seems like they went from there and ended up with Necrosha.

See, this whole undead thing isn't even all that new of a thing over in the X-titles. It been there for like a year, and as noted, these stories are planned well in advance

[The Cool Thatguy]

Ok so how do you explain the plot building up in New X-Men! And the fact that the 'Technarchy showed up in the first issue of X-Force 18 months ago?

Look at the facts.

And boy do those facts look odd. To begin with, it's a plot that started over a year ago which is odd enough on it's own given the preference for trades, and is only coming to a climax after Blackest Night is already in full swing.

And whereas Blackest Night grew out of the War of Light, Necrosha is a mix mash of genres thrown together (Selene's a magic character, in a spy book, using technology to resurrect mutants) for some generic evil plot.

So without being privy to private conversations, it's impossible to say for sure. But one could make the case in a civil court, if nothing else.

[Darrell D.]

So without being privy to private conversations, it's impossible to say for sure. But one could make the case in a civil court, if nothing else.

"Your honor, I charge that Marvel knew about our client's Zombie story, bringing dead superheroes back to life and decided to copy cat it. And Bendis sucks, Wolverine sucks, while Green Lantern is dreamy."
I would love to see that case.

[Forseti]

"And also, your honor, you should just ignore the fact that X-Force actually had its first zombies appear on page as early as April 2008, because they didn't follow up on them right away and ran some other stories first."

[The Cool Thatguy]

"And also, your honor, you should just ignore the fact that X-Force actually had its first zombies appear on page as early as April 2008, because they didn't follow up on them right away and ran some other stories first."

Wasn't there a Blackest Night teaser at the end of the Sinestro War crossover? I'm pretty sure that predates X-Force

[AllisterH]

Wasn't there a Blackest Night teaser at the end of the Sinestro War crossover? I'm pretty sure that predates X-Force

Your honour, we would also like to point out we did a couple of years ago. In fact, before Johns was even on GL:Rebirth.

"Enemy of the State" - side plot was Hydra/Hand resurrecting supers for their army.

"I might also like to point out before your Honour, that for the past 4 years, we've been doing Marvel Zombies...."

"I would ALSO like to point out that since this storyline is involving the New Mutants primarily, Dani Moonstar, a character who was intimately tied with death (via Hela) is (likely) going to play a huge part.


(Yeah....I don't think DC wants to try that case...seriously, are you guys nuts??)

[pariah-1972]

There has always been a sort of back and forth "borrowing" between the two just look at Swamp Thing and Man Thing or Doom Patrol and X-men both came out around the same time and were similar idea's but noone has claimed anyone stole the original idea from anyone.


Also considering how popular all things zombies are right now i think it's just a coincidence.

[Verminous]

And boy do those facts look odd. To begin with, it's a plot that started over a year ago which is odd enough on it's own given the preference for trades, and is only coming to a climax after Blackest Night is already in full swing.

And whereas Blackest Night grew out of the War of Light, Necrosha is a mix mash of genres thrown together (Selene's a magic character, in a spy book, using technology to resurrect mutants) for some generic evil plot.

So without being privy to private conversations, it's impossible to say for sure. But one could make the case in a civil court, if nothing else.

Why is it strange that there are seeds planted for future stories which then grow organically from an ongoing narrative? You state yourself thatBlackest Night grew out of Sinestro Corps war.

Also how the hell does Selene in a spy book (which it is not do'h) using technology prove your point in any way. That's just wierd.

[4thHorseman]

I personally couldn't care less. I'm still not picking up Necrosha.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Why is it strange that there are seeds planted for future stories which then grow organically from an ongoing narrative? You state yourself thatBlackest Night grew out of Sinestro Corps war.

Also how the hell does Selene in a spy book (which it is not do'h) using technology prove your point in any way. That's just wierd.

It's weird because whereas they built up to the War of Lights, X-Force's build up to Necrosha was far more sloppy.

They introed Eli Bard, did another plot, then came back, devoted a whole issue to his origin and then forgot about him until now. Though since X-Force is poorly plotted as a whole IMO, I chalk it up to coincidence than anything else.

As for the spy book, yes X-Force is. A secret, wet-works team is almost by defination a spy-genre. That lends itself to a more gritty and realistic take (under good writers), whereas magic runs against that, being far looser and more metaphory.

[kalorama]

Here's a question:

What difference does it really make? If the stories good, it's good. if it's not, it's not. At the end of the day, does it really matter what the genesis of it was?

[Dave H]

It's weird because whereas they built up to the War of Lights, X-Force's build up to Necrosha was far more sloppy.

They introed Eli Bard, did another plot, then came back, devoted a whole issue to his origin and then forgot about him until now. Though since X-Force is poorly plotted as a whole IMO, I chalk it up to coincidence than anything else.

As for the spy book, yes X-Force is. A secret, wet-works team is almost by defination a spy-genre. That lends itself to a more gritty and realistic take (under good writers), whereas magic runs against that, being far looser and more metaphory.
It's called a subplot, man.

They didn't "forget" about him, the only arc he's not really mentioned in is Messiah War.

The whole "copy cat" thing is absurd, but I guess people are going to ignore the facts no matter what because the truth gives them nothing to bitch about.

[Verminous]

Here's a question:

What difference does it really make? If the stories good, it's good. if it's not, it's not. At the end of the day, does it really matter what the genesis of it was?

I love it, so true.

It's called a subplot, man.

They didn't "forget" about him, the only arc he's not really mentioned in is Messiah War.

The whole "copy cat" thing is absurd, but I guess people are going to ignore the facts no matter what because the truth gives them nothing to bitch about.

......But I also love this. I'm so conflicted!

[Mat001]

Here's a question:

What difference does it really make? If the stories good, it's good. if it's not, it's not. At the end of the day, does it really matter what the genesis of it was?

Because one company sucks and the other doesn't. That's the mentality at work here.

The whole "copy cat" thing is absurd, but I guess people are going to ignore the facts no matter what because the truth gives them nothing to bitch about

QFT. This is the way of the world, especially on the internet.

[Darrell D.]

Here's a question:

What difference does it really make? If the stories good, it's good. if it's not, it's not. At the end of the day, does it really matter what the genesis of it was?

No, you see, because Joey Q kicked my dog, no wait, it may have been Dan 'the Man' Didio.
And childhoods being raped.

[Will.S]

I personally couldn't care less. I'm still not picking up Necrosha.
Same here, I've become very picky with X-Men events.

[DeadXMan]

the latest of copy cat moves is Wonder woman 600:wink:

[Verminous]

the latest of copy cat moves is Wonder woman 600:wink:

You HAD to poke that hornet's nest?:biggrin:

[DeadXMan]

You HAD to poke that hornet's nest?:biggrin:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b22/tyran-t-briggs/PeterPokinganalligator.gif:biggrin:

[Tesseract]

So, now that the Necrosha checklist is out, it appears Marvel is pushing really hard to depict the event as a continuation of Messiah War/Utopia, however unrealistic that is. After reading the Exodus epilogue that came out this week, it seems Necrosha is really some off-shoot of Messiah War. Yet, how honest is it to claim that this was their plan all along? If we go back and reread MW, and even MC, would it seem like Necrosha was a built-in follow-up? After skimming it myself, I would say no, but who knows?

[Will.S]

So, now that the Necrosha checklist is out, it appears Marvel is pushing really hard to depict the event as a continuation of Messiah War/Utopia, however unrealistic that is. After reading the Exodus epilogue that came out this week, it seems Necrosha is really some off-shoot of Messiah War. Yet, how honest is it to claim that this was their plan all along? If we go back and reread MW, and even MC, would it seem like Necrosha was a built-in follow-up? After skimming it myself, I would say no, but who knows?
After having read the checklist, I feel sorry for the poor bastards who'll have to plunk down 25+ dollars for a storyline that probably doesn't even have a proper ending.

[Werehunter]

If we go back and reread MW, and even MC, would it seem like Necrosha was a built-in follow-up? After skimming it myself, I would say no, but who knows?

Go back and re-read Green Lantern Rebirth and S War and tell me if anything other then the last page ad suggested anything about zombies playing a huge part in Blackest Night?

[Raharu]

Haven't we already established that there was a zombie related character subplot like a year or so ago in X-Force that went unresolved? Would seem that there's some implication in that

[jester1436]

These threads are so ridiculous and over the top.

"Marvel is obviously ripping off DC, wah wah wah."

"No, DC is ripping off Marvel, wah wah wah."

Seriously?

Both publishers have a history of their deceased heroes and villains rising to torment the living:

The Avengers have fought five different incarnations of The Legion of the Unliving since 1975.

She-Hulk faced a team of resurrected mutant characters called the X-Humed during Sensational She-Hulk.

The Marvel Zombies franchise has launched numerous mini-series, events and crossovers since it was spawned in Ultimate Fantastic Four.

During the old War of the Gods event, characters were brought back from the dead to attack the heroes.

Geoff Johns had a story during his run on Teen Titans in which a group of zombie Titans was raised by Brother Blood to attack the then current line-up.

I'm sure there are other examples from both companies beyond these, but quite frankly it's incredibly silly to complain about who is ripping off who. Both events have been planned by their respective creators for some time. The concept of zombies and the undead is still a popular pop culture fad. It's really lame how people are so up in arms when neither story is the first to be told. Who cares? I'm loving Blackest Night and I'm looking forward to Necrosha.

[Dave H]

After having read the checklist, I feel sorry for the poor bastards who'll have to plunk down 25+ dollars for a storyline that probably doesn't even have a proper ending.
Define "proper ending".

I have complete faith in Kyle and Yost.
Just getting to see the characters they've already revealed in action is money well spent.

[Raharu]

These threads are so ridiculous and over the top.

"Marvel is obviously ripping off DC, wah wah wah."

"No, DC is ripping off Marvel, wah wah wah."

Seriously?

Both publishers have a history of their deceased heroes and villains rising to torment the living:

The Avengers have fought five different incarnations of The Legion of the Unliving since 1975.

She-Hulk faced a team of resurrected mutant characters called the X-Humed during Sensational She-Hulk.

The Marvel Zombies franchise has launched numerous mini-series, events and crossovers since it was spawned in Ultimate Fantastic Four.

During the old War of the Gods event, characters were brought back from the dead to attack the heroes.

Geoff Johns had a story during his run on Teen Titans in which a group of zombie Titans was raised by Brother Blood to attack the then current line-up.

I'm sure there are other examples from both companies beyond these, but quite frankly it's incredibly silly to complain about who is ripping off who. Both events have been planned by their respective creators for some time. The concept of zombies and the undead is still a popular pop culture fad. It's really lame how people are so up in arms when neither story is the first to be told. Who cares? I'm loving Blackest Night and I'm looking forward to Necrosha.

Wah, wah, wah:confused:

I don't think anyone is trying to deny that there's borrowing that happens in the industry, but borrowing and ripping off are two very different things. Seems like this whole deal of Necrosha ripping off Blackest Night is just an example of someone trying to find plagiarism where there is none, based solely on one detail that is about as original an idea as an alien invasion.

[DeadXMan]

After having read the checklist, I feel sorry for the poor bastards who'll have to plunk down 25+ dollars for a storyline that probably doesn't even have a proper ending.

Please don't use FC as reference point to other books

[Hawkman]

If the story's good, I don't really care where the idea originated from. And since dead coming back to haunt their living friends and family isn't exactly a new concept in fiction, I'm willing to take Marvel at their word that this isn't a ripoff.

That said, since I don't care for the X-Men at all these days, I won't even bother reading the solicits for Necrosha. Hope it's good for all those that are interested in it, though.

[Hullababy]

If the story's good, I don't really care where the idea originated from. And since dead coming back to haunt their living friends and family isn't exactly a new concept in fiction, I'm willing to take Marvel at their word that this isn't a ripoff.

This.

That said, since I don't care for the X-Men at all these days, I won't even bother reading the solicits for Necrosha. Hope it's good for all those that are interested in it, though.

And this.

[Maestro]

Yost and Kyle are good writers. I don't think they heard about Blackest Night and thought "huh, that sounds cool! how can we copy that in our comic??"

when both stories are finished you will see they are vastly different

[Will.S]

Define "proper ending".

I have complete faith in Kyle and Yost.
Just getting to see the characters they've already revealed in action is money well spent.
The thing is that Messiah Complex and Messiah War didn't really have "endings" per se, they just continued the battle in other books like Cable or X-Force.

Now if Necrosha is part 3 of a 3 part act then I might give the X-Books a little more credit but it just seems to me like the same old "lets interrupt these titles midstream so that we can get everyone to buy all these books, have a disappointing/anticlimactic ending, and continue it into another event" that's been happening a little too much these days.

Of the ones that I've personally bought, I thought Messiah Complex and Utopia were among the stronger of the mini events both in art and in story and Utopia had a better sense of an ending to a mini event than the other ones. But it's still the never ending event after event that will continue to dominate the X-Books for as long as they keep selling.

Please don't use FC as reference point to other books
I won't, but that did have a more definitive ending than most Marvel events. Even if DC dropped the ball on the follow up FC titles and the ending itself.

[daveageallen]

The thing is that Messiah Complex and Messiah War didn't really have "endings" per se, they just continued the battle in other books like Cable or X-Force.
.

tell me about it. last x book i will ever buy and now i am cutting down on marvel and dc. those kind of things make me hate the big companies for kinda ripping us off and letting fans down. nothing happened in Messiah war, and nothing was accomplished. it was just another comic to show off deadpool and wolverine

[the henchman]

i read somewhere that "lost" sprang from abc's desire to capitalize on the popularity of the film castaway. it doesn't take anything away from the story (or add anything to it), but it is interesting.

sometimes it's easy to picture a bunch of studio execs sitting around a giant mahogany table, "did you hear universal has a dragon movie lined up? where's our dragon movie?" or something along those lines. though when was the last good dragon movie...?

anywho, just saying everything that's out now has been done dozens of times before and it's up to the individual creators and writers and artists and whoever else is involved to make ideas like zombies (blackest night, obviously) or post apocalyptic old man revenge stories (old man logan, obviously) seem fresh. if they succeed, as both of those two examples have in my eyes, awesome.

personally, i'll take blackest night over anything x-men related, especially since the last x-men comic i enjoyed was during whedon's run on astonishing.

[Dave H]

The thing is that Messiah Complex and Messiah War didn't really have "endings" per se, they just continued the battle in other books like Cable or X-Force.

But they did have endings.

They found the baby in MC and the bad guys fought the good guys for control of her. The good guys won and the baby was taken by Cable to "safety" in the future.

X-Force was a product of MC, not a continuation of it.

MW followed X-Force as they went into the future to help Cable and Hope (who were stranded in that timeline) against Bishop. They did, then they returned home to pick up the plot threads they left behind.
(I didn't say it was a great story...)

I still don't get what you mean by "proper ending".
They're periodicals.
They'll never wrap every single thing up, that's the nature of comics.

[the henchman]

But they did have endings.

They found the baby in MC and the bad guys fought the good guys for control of her. The good guys won and the baby was taken by Cable to "safety" in the future.



where a bad guy (or whatever bishop is) continued to try to get the baby...

sorry, i disliked messiah complex so much i haven't bought an x-book since...

[daveageallen]

have you seen the latest marvel zombies cover. Blackest night #1 spoof.
http://acomicbookblog.com/comic-book-blog/dc-comics-blog/marvels-blackest-night-cover/

marvel zombies stopped being interesteding 2 pages into the first. volume 3 was like 4 issues and was good only because it was in continutiy and they put togther again their monster squad the midnight sons. which is awesome. otherwise lame.

[Dave H]

where a bad guy (or whatever bishop is) continued to try to get the baby...

sorry, i disliked messiah complex so much i haven't bought an x-book since...
You honestly think that at the end the kid is never going to have anyone after her ever again?
The very nature of the character, and what she represents, is that she's always in danger.

MC was not about Cable trying to raise Hope in the future. That's what Cable's series has been about.

[Will.S]

But they did have endings.

They found the baby in MC and the bad guys fought the good guys for control of her. The good guys won and the baby was taken by Cable to "safety" in the future.

X-Force was a product of MC, not a continuation of it.

MW followed X-Force as they went into the future to help Cable and Hope (who were stranded in that timeline) against Bishop. They did, then they returned home to pick up the plot threads they left behind.
(I didn't say it was a great story...)
It's interesting that we're having this conversation since I remember having a similar one with carabas about Marvel's events and taking your stance. My argument is not that they didn't have endings, it was that the endings were either too unsatisfying or left too open for the story to have a satisfying degree of closure which is more of a subjective thing.

The baby in Messiah Complex was a pretty important plot point for the story and for mutants in general which is very much continued in Cable. After having read Messiah Complex I was interested in where they would go with the baby as well as with Cable and Bishop so I had picked up Cable and X-Force after Messiah Complex. I gave Cable the first arc or so to impress me and do something with the premise that was laid down in Messiah Complex but I dropped it since that book wasn't really going anywhere with the baby plot which again was a continuation of the Messiah Complex's plot with the baby. X-Force was more or less the same thing with X-Force having been put together to continue to hunt down the Purifiers although that hasn't always been the main focus of the book.

I still don't get what you mean by "proper ending".
They're periodicals.
They'll never wrap every single thing up, that's the nature of comics.
I think I've answered your question with the above post but I'm not new to comics so of course I realize the ongoing nature of comics.

My main problem with the X-books and perhaps with comics in general right now is the frequency of these mini events such as with Necrosha which take up a huge chunk of issues which interrupts stories and demand a certain amount of money of the reader in order to get the full story and even then there's no guarantee that the ending will be all that much of one.

[Forseti]

My problem with first Messiah Complex and then Messiah War is, that there aren't any answers. I don't expect complete wrap-ups, I fully expect to be strung along when it comes to ongoing comics. But some answers would be nice.

After MC, we don't know what's so special about the baby and after MW, we still don't know. All we know is that one character comes to some realization about her, but he doesn't get to tell us because he slips into a coma soon after. Lame. :rolleyes:

Blackest Night isn't all that either. It's starting to look like a long string of typical Johns 'character moments' that people love so much, only this event they include the dead in some nasty fashion.

[Dave H]

It's interesting that we're having this conversation since I remember having a similar one with carabas about Marvel's events and taking your stance. My argument is not that they didn't have endings, it was that the endings were either too unsatisfying or left too open for the story to have a satisfying degree of closure which is more of a subjective thing.
Fair enough.

[DavidLeVack]

This may have been stated, but wading through the bitching and whining is a lot more work than anyone should be expected to do. I think the merit to the complaint that Marvel and DC (what, 50 or 75 percent of the comic market?) is doing the SAME stories. Maybe people get tired of rehashing things?

[DavidLeVack]

in defense of Will S. Proper endings. see: Y THE LAST MAN. (though it went too long.) You had questions answered (if you tease someone for too long, it loses it's effect. see: Woman taking 4 hours to strip tease.) but there was an arch and momentum.

[Spiffy]

Isn't Blackest night stealing the undead superheroes from Millar's Ultimate FF run and the whole Marvel Zombies franchise?
As much as anything.

[The Crime Dentist]

From what I've read of Necrosha it just seems too thrown together for me to believe their "yeah, we've been planning this for like 3 years we just didn't tell anybody" excuse. It's the exact same thing as Blackest Night but with half the ideas. Characters come back from the dead and lay zombie guilt trips on the heroes, but with none of the scope or intricacy of BN. At least the New Mutants issues were good, but the rest has been awful.

[Spiffy]

From what I've read of Necrosha it just seems too thrown together for me to believe their "yeah, we've been planning this for like 3 years we just didn't tell anybody" excuse. It's the exact same thing as Blackest Night but with half the ideas. Characters come back from the dead and lay zombie guilt trips on the heroes, but with none of the scope or intricacy of BN. At least the New Mutants issues were good, but the rest has been awful.
BN is a lot of things, but I'm not sure it's "intricate".

[The Crime Dentist]

BN is a lot of things, but I'm not sure it's "intricate".

There's a lot of groundwork that's been laid in the Green Lantern books, a ton of plot threads weaving here if you've been following them. But going by what's just in the main series, your point is fair enough.

[Freakzeek]

The Necrosha Storyline had it's seed planted in the first story arc of New X-men:childhoods end (2006)

Blackest Night, The storyline was first mentioned at the conclusion of the "Sinestro Corps War" in Green Lantern vol. 4, #25. (2007)

Nobody's riffing of anybody

[The Crime Dentist]

The Necrosha Storyline had it's seed planted in the first story arc of New X-men:childhoods end (2006)

Blackest Night, The storyline was first mentioned at the conclusion of the "Sinestro Corps War" in Green Lantern vol. 4, #25. (2007)

Nobody's riffing of anybody

Enh. The GL one is a direct reference, and Johns was pretty explicit in interviews and con appearances for two years as to what the story entailed. It was also just a part of his book, then DC later decided to take it line-wide.

That X-Men 'seed' not so much, it could have gone in any direction. The way the X-Men property is handled at Marvel, I do believe they try to work in broad arcs, but I don't believe they plot events like that that far in advance. There's just too many books with too many creators and editors that they don't know will still be there in 3 years (and who'll want to be paid for their ideas now) for them to say "and in 2012 this is what our event will be and this and this will happen so everybody avoid doing X and lay some seeds for Y." And if Necrosha is seriously a story that had 3 years of incubation, it's a pretty big creative failure.

Zombies are big in popular culture this decade, both series are probably just feeding off that. I don't think Marvel would be that shameless as to steal Johns' plot wholesale, they've got enough good creative people that they wouldn't feel the need. But I do think they said "hey, we should do a zombie thing of our own, we can use that plot thread that's been dangling the last 18 months" and both turned out remarkably similar.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The Necrosha Storyline had it's seed planted in the first story arc of New X-men:childhoods end (2006)

Blackest Night, The storyline was first mentioned at the conclusion of the "Sinestro Corps War" in Green Lantern vol. 4, #25. (2007)

Nobody's riffing of anybody

I'd hardly count that mass slaughter of characters as 'seeds planted'.

[AgPhoenix]

I'd hardly count that mass slaughter of characters as 'seeds planted'.

Then how about Selene actively going after a "lost" Whither, and giving him a home and direction when no one else cared to?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Then how about Selene actively going after a "lost" Whither, and giving him a home and direction when no one else cared to?

And? Wither kills people, he doesn't resurrect them. It's more like a dangling plot thread tied up than anything else.

[KevinTBrown]

Isn't Blackest night stealing the undead superheroes from Millar's Ultimate FF run and the whole Marvel Zombies franchise?

Not even close.

Marvel Zombies, if anything, is ripping off Dawn of the Dead with the zombies eating the living.

Blackest Night's raised dead aren't trying to eat the living, they're just ripping out hearts in order to have them rise, thereby strengthening the Black Lantern Corps.

Both may have animated corpses, but both are different in their execution of the stories.

[Karl O'Neill]

Guys. Both stories have their own merits. Clearly fan reaction, sales and excecution put Blackest night on another level but that does not mean you can't enjoy both events/stories.

isn't this an old thread anyways?:eek:

[CYOTI]

And? Wither kills people, he doesn't resurrect them. It's more like a dangling plot thread tied up than anything else. Wither kills people...the same way Black Hand does. More evidence that Johns is copying off Kyle and Yost.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Wither kills people...the same way Black Hand does. More evidence that Johns is copying off Kyle and Yost.

No, he doesn't. Black Hand drained people of life, and it was something started in Green Lantern:Rebirth. He's more like Selene, really.

Wither just kills people. Dissolves organic material, can't hurt plastics, etc.

[Will.S]

in defense of Will S. Proper endings. see: Y THE LAST MAN. (though it went too long.) You had questions answered (if you tease someone for too long, it loses it's effect. see: Woman taking 4 hours to strip tease.) but there was an arch and momentum.I've been meaning to check Y The Last Man out.

[Adam K]

The real question here is: Who cares? Just read your comics and shut up and stop worrying about what everybody else is doing.