Veronica Cale?

[Seraku]

what happened to her? I know she appeared for a bit in 52, but she's kinda just dropped off the face of the earth. which is too bad because I was really liking Rucka building her up as Diana's Luthor.

[Karl O'Neill]

The Preview for Doom Patrol #2 has just been put up on newsarama and dcu blog.

Your answer lies there:biggrin:

[FeminineMystique]

She was also in the "Four Horsemen" mini series a little while ago. It's in trade paperback form if you want to track it down darling

[4PointOh]

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2009/09/dpa3_2_dylux-1-copy.jpg

[MinaRho1]

I thought her pearls were black?

Ugh. I'm such a shallow bitch.

[Free-Man]

Damn....

I really wish Rucka would've left her in the closet....

[americanwonder]

I really like Cale - one of the best new WW foes to come along - so I may never forgive Doom Patrol for stealing her away (yes, I know there's more to it than that, and I am glad she's at least being used (hopefully well) somewhere in the DCU). Maybe we'll see her in the pages of WW (where she belongs) again some day. :mad: :frown:

[Spiffy]

which is too bad because I was really liking Rucka building her up as Diana's Luthor.

Well, if she's used in the BEST Luthor tradition (unlike the worst one which has often been thrust on readership) then it would be a version who's not always as binary as good or evil. The most interesting versions of Luthor were the ones who were explained to the audience as ruthless, but also "the good guy" within his own mind (if he consorted with "supervillains he usually held them in disdain and explained them as tools of his mission, at best). The bleah versions are the Luthor versions who go around labeling himself voluntarily as a villain and wearing ridiculous battle armor.

[4PointOh]

Well, if she's used in the BEST Luthor tradition (unlike the worst one which has often been thrust on readership) then it would be a version who's not always as binary as good or evil. The most interesting versions of Luthor were the ones who were explained to the audience as ruthless, but also "the good guy" within his own mind (if he consorted with "supervillains he usually held them in disdain and explained them as tools of his mission, at best). The bleah versions are the Luthor versions who go around labeling himself voluntarily as a villain and wearing ridiculous battle armor.

That seems to be where Rucka was going with Cale. She saw herself She saw Diana as dishonest and disconnected from the lives of real women. She believed that she was the proper role model for women as she presented a vision that normal women could actually attain, whereas Diana presented them with a fantasy that would ultimately discourage and maybe even destroy women. So she saw herself doing womankind a great service by exposing Diana's fraud and getting rid of her.

[Free-Man]

That seems to be where Rucka was going with Cale. She saw herself She saw Diana as dishonest and disconnected from the lives of real women. She believed that she was the proper role model for women as she presented a vision that normal women could actually attain, whereas Diana presented them with a fantasy that would ultimately discourage and maybe even destroy women. So she saw herself doing womankind a great service by exposing Diana's fraud and getting rid of her.

....And also had no qualms with murdering innocent people out of spite. That's personally one of the things that makes me dislike Cale. Even under Rucka's pen, she's all over the place.

[shanejayell]

Oooh. I may have to start getting DP now.

[Gail Simone]

I did ask to use VC but Greg had some qualms about it, and I try to be respectful of that stuff.

[AaronJ]

....And also had no qualms with murdering innocent people out of spite. That's personally one of the things that makes me dislike Cale. Even under Rucka's pen, she's all over the place.

She's not all over the place, IMO. She saw those murders as means to an end.

She's not a good woman, regardless of what she thinks in her own twisted head. She's a sociopath who, nonetheless, believes she is superior to Wonder Woman, because she is more real and has made herself into what she is, as opposed to being "handed everything on a silver platter, from the gods, no less."

But at the end of the day, she's a villain. So I don't understand why her murdering people (for whatever reason she felt was necessary) makes her a bad character.

[4PointOh]

She's not all over the place, IMO. She saw those murders as means to an end.

She's not a good woman, regardless of what she thinks in her own twisted head. She's a sociopath who, nonetheless, believes she is superior to Wonder Woman, because she is more real and has made herself into what she is, as opposed to being "handed everything on a silver platter, from the gods, no less."

But at the end of the day, she's a villain. So I don't understand why her murdering people (for whatever reason she felt was necessary) makes her a bad character.

Precisely. That's precisely who Veronica Cale is.

[princyjoshu]

Yeah pal she is good and dont think so she is killing the innocents,,,,,

[LittleMissVixen]

I did ask to use VC but Greg had some qualms about it, and I try to be respectful of that stuff.

I understand professional courtesy and respecting his wishes; but him having "qualms" seems like a disservice to fans, IMO. A provocative and engaging new villain is introduced to the Wonder Woman mythos, then is yanked off the table?

....that is just dissappointing to me.

[americanwonder]

I'm with LittleMissVixen, I can respect Ms. Simone for wanting to honor Mr. Rucka's wishes - I just don't like the end result. Cale being in charge of Oolong Island is such a perfect set-up for great WW stories. So sad. :frown:

[Gail Simone]

I don't know Greg's reasons, but I do believe in courtesy in these situations. I've had people use my characters when I had other plans for them and it's EXTREMELY frustrating. So I understand where Greg might be coming from.

Again, he's always been helpful whenever I have had any questions at all about his run, so he may have good reason.

[Mars Getsoian]

I really like Cale - one of the best new WW foes to come along - so I may never forgive Doom Patrol for stealing her away (yes, I know there's more to it than that, and I am glad she's at least being used (hopefully well) somewhere in the DCU). Maybe we'll see her in the pages of WW (where she belongs) again some day. :mad: :frown:

I don't think she's compatible with Diana at the moment. Cale's strength as a villain was that she wasn't Wonder Woman's enemy, but Diana of Themyscira's; her first attack on Diana was a publicity campaign, an attempt to discredit and demolish Diana's message and credibility. Her second attack was going to be a legal assault on Themyscira, suing the amazons for custody of Circe's child, and possibly helping to provoke the original US/Amazon war via her senator boyfriend. These are things that strike at Diana the diplomat, Diana-of-two-worlds, Diana who unites disparate parties and brings peace and betterment to mankind. There weren't any other rogues who attacked Diana that way - everyone else wants to hurt her physically, but Cale attacked the mission.

And now there is no mission, no Diana of Themyscira, diplomat of two worlds. There's just the superhero, who claims not to be an amazon and is being encouraged by her only remaining friends to "take a break" and be selfish for a while.* Where does that leave Veronica? Just another smart scheming woman who wants to hurt Wonder Woman, and that's an angle Circe already has more than covered, and with a lot more power and effectiveness, and which Cheetah and Ares have lately enroached on as well.

Without the Embassy and the Mission, Cale is just redundant.

* Not in a bad way. A certain amount of selfishness is healthy, and it has been probably longer since Diana spent much time on her personal life and her own desires than it should be, for her sake. But it's still a motion away from "my day job when I'm not saving the world? Saving the world differently, of course."

[americanwonder]

I don't think she's compatible with Diana at the moment. Cale's strength as a villain was that she wasn't Wonder Woman's enemy, but Diana of Themyscira's; ...

I don't see it that way, Mars. At the time, everyone knew Princess Diana and WW were one and the same. Cale hated the fact that WW was held up as the female icon in the DCU, but all her powers and status in life had been given to her at birth. Cale was trying to make the world see Diana/WW as a fraud (ironically, she's more of a fraud now).


Without the Embassy and the Mission, Cale is just redundant.

Again, I disagree (no offense). Take the Fantastic Four for example; they're a family of sci-fi adventurers, and yet, their biggest arch-foe fiend is a Dictator of a foreign country. As the leader of Oolong Island, Cale is in a great position to cause all kinds of unique trouble for WW, whether or not WW has an embassy.

Sadly, this probably won't happen. :frown:

[Spiffy]

I don't think she's compatible with Diana at the moment. Cale's strength as a villain was that she wasn't Wonder Woman's enemy, but Diana of Themyscira's;
Good villains can evolve. Sometimes it goes a bit astray (purple and green suited Luthor anyone?), but its not necessarily always a bad idea.

And I could see some interesting twists to keep her relevant. Her original motivation was jealousy--although why of Diana in particular was always a bit vague (basically her motivations made her Luthor Redux--although that's not necessarily a bad thing).

There could be a good story in her at least claiming she's changed her opinion, but then have the story arc come back to her opposing Wonder Woman for more practical reasons (if Cale has been using her office ruthlessly, then Wonder Woman would of course be obliged to interfere). Of course, as with Luthor and his so-called "valid" reasons for hating Superman (the whole "he weakens humanity's own ability to evolve and take care of ourselves"), it could simply be a layer of excuses covering up the same actual motivations.

[SJNeal]

I don't think she's compatible with Diana at the moment. Cale's strength as a villain was that she wasn't Wonder Woman's enemy, but Diana of Themyscira's; her first attack on Diana was a publicity campaign, an attempt to discredit and demolish Diana's message and credibility. Her second attack was going to be a legal assault on Themyscira, suing the amazons for custody of Circe's child, and possibly helping to provoke the original US/Amazon war via her senator boyfriend. These are things that strike at Diana the diplomat, Diana-of-two-worlds, Diana who unites disparate parties and brings peace and betterment to mankind. There weren't any other rogues who attacked Diana that way - everyone else wants to hurt her physically, but Cale attacked the mission.

And now there is no mission, no Diana of Themyscira, diplomat of two worlds. There's just the superhero, who claims not to be an amazon and is being encouraged by her only remaining friends to "take a break" and be selfish for a while.* Where does that leave Veronica? Just another smart scheming woman who wants to hurt Wonder Woman, and that's an angle Circe already has more than covered, and with a lot more power and effectiveness, and which Cheetah and Ares have lately enroached on as well.

Without the Embassy and the Mission, Cale is just redundant.

* Not in a bad way. A certain amount of selfishness is healthy, and it has been probably longer since Diana spent much time on her personal life and her own desires than it should be, for her sake. But it's still a motion away from "my day job when I'm not saving the world? Saving the world differently, of course."

Despite the fact that I really like Cale and would love to see her featured prominently in the WW book, I'd never thought of her character in these terms. Thanks for showing me a different perspective! :smile:

[Mars Getsoian]

Good villains can evolve [...] And I could see some interesting twists to keep her relevant.

Well, sure, but that's kind of my point, she definitely needs a new twist if you're going to use her with the current status quo, because right now she offers nothing. I mean, say I'm writing Spider-Man, for example, and I'm spitballing with my artist and I say, "okay, for this next story, I want Spidey to fight the Sandman." My artist doesn't want to draw Sandman, though, she finds the grain detail annoying, so she says, "why Sandman, can we do Goblin or Ock instead?"

I have an answer for this. I need to use Sandman, because I want to tell a story that explores redemption in a way that wouldn't work with the Doc or Norman. I need to use Sandman, because the central conceit of the story will be an escape that only Sandman could pull. I need to use Sandman, because his particular perspective on Spidey as a hero and foe is what I want to look at, and none of his other rogues look at him this way. There are Sandman Stories, basically, is what I'm saying, that I could confidently tell my team "this can only be told properly with this guy."

I can't say that with Cale, though. I couldn't justify using her to my team, with Diana's status quo the way it is. I want to explore her jealousy of Diana - well, thanks to Rucka, no reason I can't tell that exact same story with the Cheetah, and Cheetah's a more credible opponent. I want a story where Diana gets menaced by a series of engineered abominations like you might churn out of Oolong Island - well, I can tell that exact same story with Circe, and Circe's better at it. I want a story where somebody manipulates the people in Diana's life - well, I can tell that exact same story with Psycho, and a lot more effectively. I want to tell a story where Diana faces someone with an unreasoning hatred of her - any of the above, plus Ares, all of whom have more resources and pose a greater threat. There's absolutely nothing Cale can do to Diana right now that one of Diana's other rogues can't do better, nothing in her powerset they can't one-up, and nothing about her relationship with Diana that offers a story I couldn't tell equally well or better with someone else.

Now, Cale's the president of a sovereign nation, these days, and has a lot of political capital to spend, and that should set her apart. But Diana's not moving in political spheres, anymore, so what's it really worth? All it does for Cale is give her resources to physically attack Diana, and compared to Diana's other rogues, those resources are pretty sad.

You'd have to give her a new angle, a new power, something to set her apart. I don't think that's by any means impossible, but as someone who hopes, with foolish optimism, that this Diana Prince bull will be over sooner rather than later and Diana will get back to her mission where she belongs, I also don't think it's necessary - why reduce Cale to just another Wonder Woman enemy when she's already got such an interesting place as a foe of Diana the diplomat and amazon ruler? Let her spin her wheels on Oolong, Diana's got foes enough in desperate need of renovation to keep her occupied until there's room for a perfectly functional one to come back.


Again, I disagree (no offense).

None taken. If I were offended by folks disagreeing with me, I'd be a lot more conservative about spewing my strident overthought opinions all over an internet forum. :smile:

[Sean Whitmore]

Excellent analysis, Mars.

If Cale has to be changed to be relevant to the new status quo (and I agree that she would), then there probably aren't any stories demanding her presence at the moment. That being the case, let her cool her heels for a bit. If nothing else it'll save her from becoming as overexposed as Circe.


SEAN

[Xeres]

It's too bad really. The Veronica Cale character had a lot of potential as a main WW villain. Oh well.

[CarolStrick]

This is what I don't get. HOW is Veronica Cale--at least the one we saw in the pages of WW, since I don't read DP--such a great villain? I was incredibly surprised to see her origin/motivations presented the way they were when she was introduced. They were so shallow and unconvincing.

So someone persuade me otherwise. I just see VC as a serious misstep who should step aside and let the more interesting villains through. She's fine as a minor villain for some minor hero to go up against, but more than that--? Meh.

[suedenim]

This is what I don't get. HOW is Veronica Cale--at least the one we saw in the pages of WW, since I don't read DP--such a great villain? I was incredibly surprised to see her origin/motivations presented the way they were when she was introduced. They were so shallow and unconvincing.


I thought they were shallow and convincing actually. Or something like that. IMO, some of the most memorable villains have a combination of the grandiose and the really, really petty. Like Lex Luthor, who couldn't get over his hair falling out in an accident, or Victor Von Doom, who becomes one of the most grandiose villains of all time because he couldn't admit to making a calculation error.

[Mr. Kent]

I thought they were shallow and convincing actually.

I agree. Cale's selfish and petty and fueled by jealousy, but she's also brilliant and determined, a self-made "wonder woman". Diana's message is all about inspiration, and Veronica would be the perfect poster-child for that message if she wasn't so proud. I think her personality is completely believable because it's petty. We all know people like this.

Mars' assessment was spot on - and I think Cale has a place reserved in WW's Rogues as a great political enemy, if Diana ever gets back to that field.

[Gail Simone]

I thought they were shallow and convincing actually. Or something like that. IMO, some of the most memorable villains have a combination of the grandiose and the really, really petty. Like Lex Luthor, who couldn't get over his hair falling out in an accident, or Victor Von Doom, who becomes one of the most grandiose villains of all time because he couldn't admit to making a calculation error.

I LOVE YOUR AVATAR.

[3D Master]

I think it's too bad Veronica Cale was reduced to a murdering sociopath though.

She would have been so much more powerful an opponent of Wonder Woman, both literally and literary speaking, if she wasn't a villain.

If she spent her time discrediting and destroying Wonder Woman without ever breaking a single law, she'd be so much more powerful. For one thing, there is no way that Wonder Woman can just prove her crimes and have her removed to a jail; which would a. remove the threat, and b. discredit Veronica Cale's points and arguments handily as well. If all Diana can do, is debate her, and use her own political savvy to defeat her, only to know there will be another fight because Veronica has broken no law, and it is her right to champion her opinions and ideas, this automatically becomes a much more charged fight, and shows Diana having to deal with an opponent through her wits and wisdom, and not just stomp them into the ground with her super human strength and be done with it.

Literary she would work much better for the same reason. Veronica Cale and her ideas are not discredited to the reading public by her being a villain. (Turning someone with ideas contrary to the writer's own into a villain/idiot/etc. is actually an often used and very cheap literary device to discredit their points and ideas, often when there are no ways to show the villain is actually wrong, when he/she has legitimate points that you, or rather the writer, can't easily sweep away with one or two arguments.) Now you actually pose the question to your readers, forcing them to think about how and why Veronica is right, or Wonder Woman is right, or maybe both are right, or both are wrong, or even both are both right and wrong.

[suedenim]

I LOVE YOUR AVATAR.

Thanks, I think Cowgirl Diana is becoming my favorite Wonder Woman*, even though there hasn't been a single story about her.

* - and of course, her trusty invisible horse, Smokey Joe (named properly by someone in that Project Rooftop thread)!

[suedenim]

Bleh, posting error, move along, nothing to see here (why can't we delete posts?)

[King Rockwell]

(Turning someone with ideas contrary to the writer's own into a villain/idiot/etc. is actually an often used and very cheap literary device to discredit their points and ideas, often when there are no ways to show the villain is actually wrong, when he/she has legitimate points that you, or rather the writer, can't easily sweep away with one or two arguments.) Now you actually pose the question to your readers, forcing them to think about how and why Veronica is right, or Wonder Woman is right, or maybe both are right, or both are wrong, or even both are both right and wrong.
There's a term for that, it's called a "strawman". The lack of it is what I liked about Hiketeia, so we know Rucka's certainly capable of it. But I'm sure Cale considered her motivations separate from her methods. Means to and end, and all that, which made her a focused, but frightening antagonist.

[Scott E. Hileman]

Yknow, I never saw her as Diana's Lex Luthor as much as I saw as the 21st century heir to Baroness Paula Von Gunther. Whatever the case, I do wish it was possible for Gail to use her in Wonder Woman. Any uncertainity as to her status as a villain would surely be solved under Gail's pen.