I'd Like to See More Diana Prince!

[Hyperion322]

I'm a BIG fan of Wonder Woman's alter ego, DEO Agent Diana Prince, and would love to see more of her. I liked the idea that was introduced in Trinity of how Diana explained that her identity wasn't so much a secret life, rather a private life compared to her friends Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent. I would love that explained a bit more and to see her doing more mundane things with her human friends, much the same way we saw Diana during the Messner-Loebs era.

Anyone else like Diana Prince as much as Princess Diana or Wonder Woman?

~ Hype

[aegisbearer]

I'm okay with it if it's used well.

[korok]

I like that she has Diana Prince again... I'd like to see more of her in that identity... in fact, with the way things have been, how does Ms. Prince keep her job?

[MinaRho1]

I never liked the Diana Prince, thing. For one thing, the name is too much like Princess Diana. She might as well be walking around with neon signs pointing at her. How private can it be?

[SJNeal]

I never liked the Diana Prince, thing. For one thing, the name is too much like Princess Diana. She might as well be walking around with neon signs pointing at her. How private can it be?

Ask Superman. He's been getting away with it for 70 yrs... :wink:

[MinaRho1]

Ask Superman. He's been getting away with it for 70 yrs... :wink:

Reread what I said. That analogy would fit if he was called Man Supe in his civilian identity or something. My bad if I didnt get that across clearly

[Kurt Busiek]

Reread what I said. That analogy would fit if he was called Man Supe in his civilian identity or something.

Only if "Man" and "Supe" were common names.

If you meet someone named Charlie Prince, is your first thought going to be, "Is he really Prince Charles"?

Yes, it's a little close to the nose. So is putting on a pair of glasses and expecting your friends not to recognize you any more.

But if superhero comics need to be that realistic, we can apply actual physics to the fights and we'll have to rework them completely, too, because they generally make no sense.

There are elements of fantasy, and I hope there always will be.

kdb

[Gail Simone]

I need to get to it...the last couple stories didn't really allow for it. But it IS coming, and some changes, too!

[SJNeal]

Reread what I said. That analogy would fit if he was called Man Supe in his civilian identity or something. My bad if I didnt get that across clearly

You did, I was just extrapolating. As in, it's no more unrealistic to expect to fool people by swapping your first & last names than it is to call glasses and a tie your "secret identity".

My bad if it seemed like I was being a dick; I wasn't. :redface:

[MinaRho1]

If you meet someone named Charlie Prince, is your first thought going to be, "Is he really Prince Charles"?
kdb

If he looked *exactly* like Prince Charles-- his height, his weight, complete with his freakishly bloated pink hands, I would. And I would think that he was drunk or pretty darn high.

It would be frightening and hilarious. With diana the name just sounds lazy. I can understand her wanting to keep the first name. I always thought Diana was a beautiful name, but the last name just leaves me cold.

My bad if it seemed like I was being a dick; I wasn't
I didn't think you were! :D I think its safe to say that comicbook readers are sticklers for detail? It feels like home to talk to other fans.

And also guys. "Man Supe". That was lazy of me. You deserve better. But I'm not gonna think of something else

[SJNeal]

If he looked *exactly* like Prince Charles-- his height, his weight, complete with his freakishly bloated pink hands, I would. And I would think that he was drunk or pretty darn high.

It would be frightening and hilarious. With diana the name just sounds lazy. I can understand her wanting to keep the first name. I always thought Diana was a beautiful name, but the last name just leaves me cold.

My bad if it seemed like I was being a dick; I wasn't
I didn't think you were! :D I think its safe to say that comicbook readers are sticklers for detail? It feels like home to talk to other fans.

And also guys. "Man Supe". That was lazy of me. You deserve better. But I'm not gonna think of something else

"Man Supe" makes me think of something else entirely, but I won't go there. We're PG-13 here, after all... :cool:

[MinaRho1]

"Man Supe" makes me think of something else entirely, but I won't go there. We're PG-13 here, after all... :cool:

lol. I'm glad you said it and not me. But i was thinking it. Don't judge!

[Kurt Busiek]

If he looked *exactly* like Prince Charles-- his height, his weight, complete with his freakishly bloated pink hands, I would.

Yeah, but if he looked exactly like Prince Charles, you'd already be thinking that -- the name wouldn't be the tip-off.

Much like, if Bruce Wayne looked like Michael Keaton, and Batman looked like Michael Keaton in a Batman costume, that wouldn't fool anyone either.

So you seem to be applying standards to Wonder Woman that don't get applied to other superheroes. The name itself wouldn't be the sort of thing that would make someone suspicious, you needed to add "looked exactly like" him, too.

If we're applying that standard, most secret IDs are toast. Even Spider-Man's, since when Marvel staffers dressed up as Spidey to conduct the weekly office tours, I always knew who it was from their height, build and body language.

If we're not applying that standard, then "Diana Prince" is no more unrealistic than a pair of glasses or a domino mask.

kdb

[MinaRho1]

Yeah, but if he looked exactly like Prince Charles, you'd already be thinking that -- the name wouldn't be the tip-off.

Much like, if Bruce Wayne looked like Michael Keaton, and Batman looked like Michael Keaton in a Batman costume, that wouldn't fool anyone either.

So you seem to be applying standards to Wonder Woman that don't get applied to other superheroes. The name itself wouldn't be the sort of thing that would make someone suspicious, you needed to add "looked exactly like" him, too.

If we're applying that standard, most secret IDs are toast. Even Spider-Man's, since when Marvel staffers dressed up as Spidey to conduct the weekly office tours, I always knew who it was from their height, build and body language.

If we're not applying that standard, then "Diana Prince" is no more unrealistic than a pair of glasses or a domino mask.

kdb

I didnt but I easily could. I don't care how Clark blurs himself in photos or how he combs his hair. He looks exactly the same. But his civvie name is character based. Diana looks exactly the same in and out of superhero form-- no one looks like her (except Donna technically).

Take it further, In a world that views Princess Diana as a celebrity, political figure, hero and almost a goddess, the average person *might* take note of "Diana Prince" with a giggle. Because people are immature that way. Give the name to anyone else it still sounds like a pun or a punchline somehow.

Yeah, but if he looked exactly like Prince Charles, you'd already be thinking that -- the name wouldn't be the tip-off.
But if someone was named Charlie Prince and I heard the name in a crowded theater, I'd turn and look. Maybe even point and laugh a little bit. Again, not claiming to be mature here.
Realism and fantasy aside I just do not like the name and probably never will.

Now I feel bad because poor Charlie was probably beaten up a lot in the playground!

[WillBooth]

I think the biggest problem with Diana Prince isn't the name but the fact that she's a 'fake' secret ID. Post-Crisis at least, Superman grew up as Clark Kent just as Batman grew up as Bruce Wayne – the costumes came later. Diana Prince, though, is Wonder Woman trying to pass as 'one of us' – not quite the same thing.

The only time that wasn't the case was in her de-powered days under Mike Sekowsky. As a WW fan going all the way back to the 70s, I remember how writers struggled after Sekowsky to find a role for Diana Prince.

I hope Gail manages to find a useful role for DP, though – I've always loved the idea, even if the execution hasn't always been up to scratch.

(wow – my first ever post to CBR!)

[Kurt Busiek]

Take it further, In a world that views Princess Diana as a celebrity, political figure, hero and almost a goddess, the average person *might* take note of "Diana Prince" with a giggle.

Actually, in this world we did have a Princess Diana who was a celebrity and political figure, and there weren't a lot of Wonder Woman jokes. Some people might have made the connection, but it was hardly widespread.

I don't think people with the surname "Prince" or "King" automatically evoke, "What if that was a title rather than a last name?" Charles Prince was the CEO of Citigroup. Another Charles Prince works at Johnson & Johnson. There are others.

The world is full of Stephanie Princes, most of whom aren't regularly connected with Princess Stephanie of Monaco. And so on.

And on top of that, while Diana is a princess, she's known most widely under another name, Wonder Woman, while Princess Stephanie is best-known under the name Princess Stephanie.


But if someone was named Charlie Prince and I heard the name in a crowded theater, I'd turn and look. Maybe even point and laugh a little bit. Again, not claiming to be mature here.

Maybe you would, but there's a long way from that to it being a dead giveaway.


Realism and fantasy aside I just do not like the name and probably never will.

And you certainly don't have to. I don't much like the name Darkhawk, myself.

kdb

[MinaRho1]

Maybe you would, but there's a long way from that to it being a dead giveaway.
kdb
But not quite right for a suposed spy either.

You don't like Darkhawk? You WOUND me, sir!
Who's Darkhawk?

[Kurt Busiek]

But not quite right for a suposed spy either.


Spies don't get given different names from anyone else; I'm sure they have around the same proportion of names you'd giggle at as the rest of the populace.

And DC does have a spy named King Faraday, so he's waaaaaaay ahead in the goofy name department. Though modern generations may not get the joke as well as those who were around when he debuted.

kdb

[MinaRho1]

Spies don't get given different names from anyone else; I'm sure they have around the same proportion of names you'd giggle at as the rest of the populace.

And DC does have a spy named King Faraday, so he's waaaaaaay ahead in the goofy name department. Though modern generations may not get the joke as well as those who were around when he debuted.

kdb
That's fair. But answer the question! I must know!

[Kurt Busiek]

That's fair. But answer the question! I must know!

Darkhawk is a Marvel character. I've never liked the name.

kdb

[MinaRho1]

Darkhawk is a Marvel character. I've never liked the name.

kdb

That explains it. I haven't followed Marvel in a long time.

[SJNeal]

That explains it. I haven't followed Marvel in a long time.

Trust me, you haven't missed a thing. Unfortunately...

[MinaRho1]

Trust me, you haven't missed a thing. Unfortunately...

They lost me with all the skrull stuff.

[americanwonder]

... But it IS coming, and some changes, too!

NNOOOOOOOOO!!! This pains me so. :frown:

Our lil' princess, and once-goddess of truth, grew up to be a fraud, because Batman told her she wasn't a real girl. :frown:

Maybe the "changes" will make it more palatable for me.

[Spiffy]

I'm okay with Diana Prince existing, but its one thing to like the character and entitely another to "like" the whole DEO setup.

It was kind of cobbled together for the whole "Who is Wonder Woman" arc, and never used all that well. If a change is on the way? Great. Make Diana Prince's life actually somewhat relevent and interesting and I'm there.

[MinaRho1]

NNOOOOOOOOO!!! This pains me so. :frown:

Our lil' princess, and once-goddess of truth, grew up to be a fraud, because Batman told her she wasn't a real girl. :frown:

Maybe the "changes" will make it more palatable for me.

I don't necessarily like it, but I can accept it.

I think the key saying is that the alter ego is for privacy, not trickery.
What would make it more palatable for me is if the alter ego's life was convincingly established. She's in the building process, but she had a LOT of time when she was missing from the public eye. She had time to cultivate her own taste in art, music, movies and whatnot, I think. And instead we see an empty (albiet gorilla occupied) living space.

Hell, she had time to build up her own identity for decades, but Heinberg made it seem like the appearance of Diana Prince was *Diana's* first step in this world. And Piccolt made it seem like she had never seen an escalator or had coffee in public. It was sad.

Fill her life with mementos, guilty pleasures, and signs of her hopes for the future. Sometime more substantial than hints and a few visual cues. The most interesting thing about Diana's place was her closet, which has the armor and superhero accessories in it. Something is seriously wrong there.

Yeah, she's busy but even busy people accumulate things tied to their personality, almost by accident. I pick things out of my pocket all the time that tie me to where I was, what I want, and what I like. Even Kara found time for herself and some hobbies, art. writing, music-- and a pet.

And I'd love it more if Diana Prince was a don't-ask-don't tell thing vs. secret identity. She'd tell all her friends and fellow capes about it, but with discretion. Or not. That's her choice. That way its not about deception or lies. Its a dividing line. that way a private life does not equal a false life.

[Constantine Drakon]

I'd Like to See NO Diana Prince!


Actually, in this world we did have a Princess Diana who was a celebrity and political figure, and there weren't a lot of Wonder Woman jokes. Some people might have made the connection, but it was hardly widespread.



The difference being?

Wonder Woman is much more famous in her world than in ours. In her world, both "Princess Dianas" are likely household names.

And one of them (the one that's alive, no disrespect meant) just so happens to look IDENTICAL to "Diana Prince".

It's got to be the worst secret identity I've ever seen that wasn't intended to be a joke.

[Kurt Busiek]

And one of them (the one that's alive, no disrespect meant) just so happens to look IDENTICAL to "Diana Prince".

We covered that earlier. "Looks identical" is simply not a factor for anyone else; it's a double standard to apply it here.


It's got to be the worst secret identity I've ever seen that wasn't intended to be a joke.

I always thought that was Oliver Queen, as long as we're going by "looks identical."

kdb

[MinaRho1]

We covered that earlier. "Looks identical" is simply not a factor for anyone else; it's a double standard to apply it here.

kdb

this isn't a Superman thread, or anyone else's for that matter. It's a Wonder Woman thread. Clearly it IS an issue with other superheroes because its a subject that was painstakingly addressed i.e. in the Christopher Reeve superman movie and in Birthright, and jokes about the disguises and alter egos are part of pop culture.

The reason they pulled it off was because they took it seriously. Different lighting and lenses were used in the movie, and Martha and Clark lovingly planned Clark's double life down to the smallest detail. The point is that they addressed it. You can't just pretend that its nonexistant in other titles, and claim double standard here. All do respect I think its being a little unfair to the reader.

I'm not against fantastical elements and escapist stories. I wouldn't be such a fan if I weren't. I'm just saying not to turn a blind eye. Not acknowledging it makes it seem an even bigger issue than it is.

[West Mantooth]

this isn't a Superman thread, or anyone else's for that matter. It's a Wonder Woman thread. Clearly it IS an issue with other superheroes because its a subject that was painstakingly addressed i.e. in the Christopher Reeve superman movie and in Birthright, and jokes about the disguises and alter egos are part of pop culture.

The reason they pulled it off was because they took it seriously. Different lighting and lenses were used in the movie, and Martha and Clark lovingly planned Clark's double life down to the smallest detail. The point is that they addressed it. You can't just pretend that its nonexistant in other titles, and claim double standard here. All do respect I think its being a little unfair to the reader.

I'm not against fantastical elements and escapist stories. I wouldn't be such a fan if I weren't. I'm just saying not to turn a blind eye. Not acknowledging it makes it seem an even bigger issue than it is.

But it's really not even that hard. I'm not a woman(last time I checked at least) and all I see on morning shows are "how to dress" segments about hiding and accentuating the woman's form. As long as Wonder Woman's wardrobe hid/drew attention from her more tightly fitting Wondy costume, it should be simple. And I don't mean she needs to wear oversized shirts.

Superman is hard to do. Guys don't have much of a choice in the fashion department. It needed to be addressed in some sense.

[Kurt Busiek]

this isn't a Superman thread, or anyone else's for that matter. It's a Wonder Woman thread. Clearly it IS an issue with other superheroes because its a subject that was painstakingly addressed i.e. in the Christopher Reeve superman movie and in Birthright, and jokes about the disguises and alter egos are part of pop culture.

And yet, the fact that Christopher Reeve played both characters wasn't seen as impossible, and he was physically identical to himself.

In a movie, whoever plays Wonder Woman could do the same thing. In the comics, they use the same kind of shorthand they do in the Superman books (or most other superhero comics) and it's not a problem.

So yeah, I'd say it's a double standard to apply it here when it's clearly not an issue there.


I'm just saying not to turn a blind eye. Not acknowledging it makes it seem an even bigger issue than it is.

I dunno. Years of no one figuring out famous newspaper columnist and ex-zillionnaire Oliver Queen and famous local superhero Green Arrow weren't the same guy despite the only real difference being a silly hat and a domino mask so small it practically could have been eyeshadow leaves me thinking Wonder Woman isn't some great transgression against the genre.

Doesn't Diana even wear glasses and change her hair these days, or was that only temporary?

kdb

[MinaRho1]

But it's really not even that hard. I'm not a woman(last time I checked at least) and all I see on morning shows are "how to dress" segments about hiding and accentuating the woman's form. As long as Wonder Woman's wardrobe hid/drew attention from her more tightly fitting Wondy costume, it should be simple.

I get that its harder for Clark. And yet its never been pulled off for Wondie. What's stopping them, really?

[West Mantooth]

Probably because fans like to see Wonder Woman look "wonderful" in all her apperances. If she were slouching and wearing ill-fitting clothing, fans would hate it.

My explanation is easier to show in real life. In comics, it would take a bit more research and effort on the part of the artist for what, 5 pages of a 22 page story?

[Kurt Busiek]

Probably because fans like to see Wonder Woman look "wonderful" in all her apperances. If she were slouching and wearing ill-fitting clothing, fans would hate it.

They actually used to do that as a regular thing, with Diana in nerdy glasses and severe hair and clothes, and people talking about how "plain" she was.

kdb

[West Mantooth]

They actually used to do that as a regular thing, with Diana in nerdy glasses and severe hair and clothes, and people talking about how "plain" she was.

kdb

You mean those 1950/60s weird sharp-edge frame glasses? I thought those were in-fashion back then?

[Kurt Busiek]

You mean those 1950/60s weird sharp edge glasses? I thought those were in-fashion back then?

If you were playing canasta in the suburbs, maybe.

kdb

[Mart]

The reason they pulled it off was because they took it seriously. Different lighting and lenses were used in the movie.

They were? I never noticed, I just thought Reeve's Clark Kent looked like Superman with glasses and an awfully sweaty head. I just accepted that the ID worked (and of course, I remember that Spellbinder story - thank you Al Schroeder III!).

[Mart]

And DC does have a spy named King Faraday, so he's waaaaaaay ahead in the goofy name department. Though modern generations may not get the joke as well as those who were around when he debuted.



Oh Lordy, I never noticed that pun. Thanks!

[BnL]

Probably because fans like to see Wonder Woman look "wonderful" in all her apperances. If she were slouching and wearing ill-fitting clothing, fans would hate it.

Only because it would be out of character. That's putting too much effort into the deception.

Anyway, I'm still not the biggest fan of "Diana Prince," but it can work if done right. But the DMA stuff has to go, for sure. My idea for how to make the secret identity work is to have the "wonder spin" actually be a mystical glamour that prevents people from recognizing her, since she would naturally put minimal effort into trying to fool people. She'll still always be Diana.

I'd have her move into a bad neighborhood in DC, and then work wonders to improve the conditions. She'd drive out the gangs, drug dealers, sleazy landlords, and crooked cops. She would get to know her neighbors, help them with their bigger problems, and empower them to fix their smaller problems and live fulfilling lives. She would play sports and games with the children, throw celebrations for her new friends' successes, and ultimately create a great community where everyone gets along and helps each other. The kind of place where they throw block parties, and everyone leaves their doors unlocked. Eventually, because she's so bad at hiding the truth, most of her neighbors will have figured out that she's really Wonder Woman, but they never let Diana know that they know, and keep it a carefully guarded secret from all others.

[MinaRho1]

Only because it would be out of character. That's putting too much effort into the deception.

Anyway, I'm still not the biggest fan of "Diana Prince," but it can work if done right. But the DMA stuff has to go, for sure. My idea for how to make the secret identity work is to have the "wonder spin" actually be a mystical glamour that prevents people from recognizing her, since she would naturally put minimal effort into trying to fool people. She'll still always be Diana.

I'd have her move into a bad neighborhood in DC, and then work wonders to improve the conditions. She'd drive out the gangs, drug dealers, sleazy landlords, and crooked cops. She would get to know her neighbors, help them with their bigger problems, and empower them to fix their smaller problems and live fulfilling lives. She would play sports and games with the children, throw celebrations for her new friends' successes, and ultimately create a great community where everyone gets along and helps each other. The kind of place where they throw block parties, and everyone leaves their doors unlocked. Eventually, because she's so bad at hiding the truth, most of her neighbors will have figured out that she's really Wonder Woman, but they never let Diana know that they know, and keep it a carefully guarded secret from all others.

friggin' awesome. That's all I have to say

[BnL]

friggin' awesome. That's all I have to say

Thank you! :wink:

[scout1279]

We covered that earlier. "Looks identical" is simply not a factor for anyone else; it's a double standard to apply it here.



I always thought that was Oliver Queen, as long as we're going by "looks identical."

kdb
Especially with that beard, but it'd be pretty disappointing if he lost the beard.


I think the biggest advantage that superheroes with secret identities have, and this probably goes double for Wonder Woman, is that people don't expect them to have a secret identity, let alone be someone they work with. That is, as long as they're not Lois Lane and are pretty close to both Superman and Clark Kent, but everyone Diana is close too is in on her secret identity. It's not likely that it would even occur to a random co-worker that they might be working with Wonder Woman's alter-ego.

Anyway, I'm glad we'll be seeing more of Diana Prince (long overdue IMO), and I think that set up could stand to be changed a bit, so it's all good news to me.

[Kurt Busiek]

I think the biggest advantage that superheroes with secret identities have, and this probably goes double for Wonder Woman, is that people don't expect them to have a secret identity, let alone be someone they work with.

That probably works better for Wonder Woman than most. Batman is clearly a guy in a mask. Superman, nobody knew where he went when he wasn't supering around, at least not until he told people he had a secret identity.

But Wonder Woman? "Don't she live on that Amazon Island there, princessing up the place?" She has an identity, one that's more than "action hero" -- people don't have that much of a reason to suspect she has another.

kdb

[AdamYJ]

And yet, the fact that Christopher Reeve played both characters wasn't seen as impossible, and he was physically identical to himself.

In a movie, whoever plays Wonder Woman could do the same thing. In the comics, they use the same kind of shorthand they do in the Superman books (or most other superhero comics) and it's not a problem.

So yeah, I'd say it's a double standard to apply it here when it's clearly not an issue there.

I know this may not be the place to bring it up, but the whole Superman movie thing with clumsy, nerdy Clark and swaggering Supes was always something that really got to me. Not so much in terms of believability as much as how draining and aggravating it must be to have to play a role for half your life (if not both halves). I suppose actors can do it, but it just seems really tough to live like that.

I kind of prefer the George Reeves approach, in which he acted essentially the same in both roles yet the other characters still never caught on. :biggrin:

[JKCarrier]

Not so much in terms of believability as much as how draining and aggravating it must be to have to play a role for half your life (if not both halves). I suppose actors can do it, but it just seems really tough to live like that.

I think of Clark as being Superman's self-image. He doesn't think he's anything special, and he often feels awkward and out-of-place. When he's "on duty" as Superman, he has to put all doubts aside, because everyone is looking up to him and depending on him.When he's Clark, nobody expects anything from him, so he can relax and let out his dorky side. If anything, being Clark is a vacation.

[americanwonder]

Am I the only one that's bothered by the fraud?

Bruce actually is Bruce.

Clark is Clark (and it wouldn't have been hard for Ma and Pa to get a legal SSN for the little guy either).

Diana Prince never existed. It's fraud, as in illegal.

Sure, they all break our laws by being vigilantes. But, Diana gets to break the law in both her identities. I doubt it's legal in the DCU to totally fake your resume and give them a phony ID when applying for a job. Unlike Clark and the gang, she didn't go to whatever school she says she did, she never worked for Wayne Tech, or any of that. She's living a lie.

(Where's diana_fan when I need him? :wink: )

[AaronJ]

Am I the only one that's bothered by the fraud?

Bruce actually is Bruce.

Clark is Clark (and it wouldn't have been hard for Ma and Pa to get a legal SSN for the little guy either).

Diana Prince never existed. It's fraud, as in illegal.

Sure, they all break our laws by being vigilantes. But, Diana gets to break the law in both her identities. I doubt it's legal in the DCU to totally fake your resume and give them a phony ID when applying for a job. Unlike Clark and the gang, she didn't go to whatever school she says she did, she never worked for Wayne Tech, or any of that. She's living a lie.

(Where's diana_fan when I need him? :wink: )

I briefly passed out.

I'm here! I'm here! :)


And yeah, I really will NEVER understand why that doesn't bother people. I've had people say "Well, I don't care if she is deceiving everyone," which is one thing. Granted, I don't understand that, either.

But to not even see the difference -- that just freaks me out.

What's really ironic about it, when it is discussed on msg boards, is that if I created another identity for CBR, and started logging in, etc., and was found out, it would be ban-able.

Yet, it is seemingly ok for Diana to create some new identity "out of the blue" and deal with the same people as both Princess Diana aka Wonder Woman, and "Diana Prince."

Where's the ban for Di?! WHERE?!

:)

[Flâneur]

While Clark and Bruce lead double lives, the identities they've constructed is that of the fantastic and they've only done so for the greater good. Diana, unlike them, isn't constructing an identity for the greater good, she is making up a person for the purpose of personal exploration and in the process she is faking personal relationships, lying constantly (an avatar of truth does that, how?) and even being paid for it.

When Clark and Bruce are on the job, they aren't lying about who they are, they really are Superman and Batman, and their friendships with the heroes are honest in that regard regardless of whether or not they disclose their private identity. When Wonder Woman is on the job as Diana Prince though, she actively is lying and building friendships on that lie.

Even more ridiculous, this identity doesn't actually do anything to connect her to humanity on a personal level; as Wonder Woman she was living with the Katapelis and Sandsmark families, dating Trevor Barnes and meeting his family, working at Taco Whizz (ugh), working on a day to day basis with the people at her embassy and more while as Diana Prince she's been a secret agent managing superhuman affairs. It's such a useless artifice.

[AaronJ]

Even more ridiculous, this identity doesn't actually do anything to connect her to humanity on a personal level; as Wonder Woman she was living with the Katapelis and Sandsmark families, dating Trevor Barnes and meeting his family, working at Taco Whizz (ugh), working on a day to day basis with the people at her embassy and more while as Diana Prince she's been a secret agent managing superhuman affairs. It's such a useless artifice.

Very well said.

And not only that, but she's a foreign national working for a (supposedly) super-secret US government agency.

That was another thing that really bothered me: That Diana would choose, of ALL things, "Hey! I'll go work for the US Government!"

Ugh. Honestly? I think she'd be WAY better off at Taco Whiz.

[Evil Eleanor]

We covered that earlier. "Looks identical" is simply not a factor for anyone else; it's a double standard to apply it here.

I disagree. It think it is a factor for other characters. We may turn a blind eye, but many of us (to different extents) acknowledge there's some problems there. It's just that the good outweighs the bad.

But that's not the case with Diana Prince.




I always thought that was Oliver Queen, as long as we're going by "looks identical."

kdb

I'd argue that "the beauty of Aphrodite" should stand out as much, if not more, than a goatee... But we're not going by just "looks identical". We're going by the whole package. And Green Arrow would have to travel the world, introducing himself as "Queen Olivera" (and publishing best-selling books under that name) to come close to having as bad an alternate id as Diana.

And "Oliver Queen" is Green Arrow's origin, if you look at it a certain way. The things he experienced as Oliver Queen, up to and including being stranded on that island, are what made him the Green Arrow we know.

Diana Prince, on the other hand, is nothing. A fabrication. A sham. A lie.

And yes, it really does stand out for a character so closely associated with the truth to be lying.

And then there's the disguise itself... glasses? Really? Okay, I'll say it if nobody else will: it comes off as a ripoff of Clark Kent.

So we've got someone that doesn't wear a mask in their super-identity, with stunning good looks that should be pretty memorable (and considerable height depending on who's writing/drawing), we've got a "disguise" that was basically swiped from Superman, we've got a pretty awful name for her fake identity, we've got the fact that she's actively lying to and deceiving others despite her link to "The Truth", and we've got the fact that it's not actually linked to her past, it's just a forgery of a life. Then throw in the fact that nobody can even agree on what Diana Prince should be, and factor in the way that it's pretty irrelevant to her interactions with her supporting cast (except for when it was used to create a bad love triangle with Steve)... any one of those things would be a problem that you could look past. But when you put them all together?

Hands down, the worst "Secret Identity" of any major comic character (and any minor one I know of).

[Kurt Busiek]

Diana Prince, on the other hand, is nothing. A fabrication. A sham. A lie.

And yes, it really does stand out for a character so closely associated with the truth to be lying.

Then my vote would be to drop this "avatar of truth" stuff that's apparently distorted the character so badly. It's a fairly recent addition, and if it's so overwhelming that it renders an amazon, someone trained in combat and the skills associated therewith unable to deceive anyone, then it should probably be dropped.

She can't sneak up on anyone; that's a form of deception. No feinting in combat; that's deception. And back when she was acting as an ambassador, no negotiating that doesn't involve putting all your cards on the table face up; that's trying to trick the other guy into thinking something that's not true.

She must be the worst poker player on Earth, too. And beyond.

I mean, I don't have a problem with it myself -- but I always figured her being a truth-figure was a power, not a crippling limitation. Some people do have this idea that Wonder Woman can't possibly ever lie, despite the fact that she's been doing it longer than most of us have been alive. Heck, some people seem to think Superman can't possibly lie either, mainly rooted, I think, in a single line from the movie, and they get wound up about all the many, many, many times he's lied before and since, like the people who insist that "last son of Krypton" means "sole survivor," even though it was popularized at a time when there were thousands of survivors.

So it goes. Another example of how these characters are rich enough so that people can like them for reasons that other people who also like the characters just can't stand.

I just don't buy the premise that having a secret identity breaks the character. She had it for decades, during which time she became one of the most popular and recognizable fictional characters in the world. If making her an avatar of truth breaks the character, it clearly must have been a mistake, since adding it apparently broke the character that had become so popular the world around.

I don't think that it does, but if the choice is between her being unable to lie at all, and her being able to expose the truth in others but not broadcast her own secrets, I prefer the latter.

But that's me. This is also one of the reasons I find myself drawing away from wanting to write books with major characters sometimes; there are multiple opposed factions in the audiences that are entrenched camps, each determined that what the other camps like is a sin that destroys the character. When that happens, there's literally nothing creators can do that won't wind up with some part of the audience up in arms and calling for their head, usually for disrespecting the character and the audience, even if there's another part of the audience that thinks, equally passionately, that it's disrespectful not to embrace whatever facets the first camp is excoriating.

When that sort of thing starts to happen, I want to get as far away from these characters as I can and never come back, because there's no winning any more. It's not a case that some people won't like the material; that's always the case. It's that it becomes a crusade to stop the heretic creators, as partisan and hostile as national politics; it's what they used to call a "hostile work environment," where ordinary criticism has given way to a near-religious schism.

And then I wake up the next morning, and usually it's just comics again.

In the end, it's nice that you can like the character so much, and so can I, even though we like different stuff.

kdb

[AaronJ]

My feeling isn't that she can't ever lie, but that she can't make her entire life a lie.

I think there's a big difference between those two.

[Flâneur]

My feeling isn't that she can't ever lie, but that she can't make her entire life a lie.

I think there's a big difference between those two.

Agreed.

And Kurt, the problem isn't just that Wonder Woman has a secret identity, it's how the whole thing is played. She wasn't born Diana Prince and she didn't come to man's world as Diana Prince (with Wonder Woman as her secret persona). Where someone like Winged Victory has a clear division between herself as a civilian and herself as a cape, Diana never did, so it makes this addition awkward.

I'm also not sure that citing Silver Age popularity means anything in arguing for having the Diana Prince persona. It's the entire concept people bought into, with all its pros and cons, so it's not reasonable to invoke that anymore than it would be to say that the dialogue is what made people buy it so we should force Gail to write that way.

[Vigo the Carpathian]

I'd have to say that the return of Diana Prince is probably the most egregious example of wrongheaded nostalgia I've ever come across.

I'm sorry, but it's a bloody awful secret identity, a pale shadow of Clark Kent.

As a major DC superhero that didn't have a secret identity, she was something unique.

More is lost with Diana Prince than is gained.

[Kurt Busiek]

Agreed.

And Kurt, the problem isn't just that Wonder Woman has a secret identity, it's how the whole thing is played. She wasn't born Diana Prince and she didn't come to man's world as Diana Prince (with Wonder Woman as her secret persona).

No offense, but you're just repeating the same arguments that didn't win me over before; unless there's something new to them, they're unlikely to work the third or fourth or sixteenth time.

But it's no big deal -- you don't have to like her secret identity. I'm just saying that the reasons you find it unworkable don't convince me, so I don't agree.


I'm also not sure that citing Silver Age popularity means anything in arguing for having the Diana Prince persona.

I didn't cite Silver Age popularity specifically; that was just part of her decades of popularity.


It's the entire concept people bought into, with all its pros and cons, so it's not reasonable to invoke that anymore than it would be to say that the dialogue is what made people buy it so we should force Gail to write that way.

More like saying that if someone argued that the dialogue from 1940 to 1986 was completely and conceptually wrong for the character and the character couldn't possibly work with that approach, I'd disagree -- clearly, the character worked for years that way, so it wasn't any sort of "fatal flaw."

What Gail (and others) choose to do today doesn't have to be any one single interpretation -- there were numerous interpretations over the decades she had a secret identity, after all. It's the idea that all of those interpretations are conceptually broken that I can't agree with.

kdb

[Kurt Busiek]

My feeling isn't that she can't ever lie, but that she can't make her entire life a lie.

I think there's a big difference between those two.

I think you're drawing distinctions that will allow the character to be dishonest where you're okay with it, but after that it's suddenly conceptually unworkable. But even doing that establishes that her truthfulness need not be absolute, so it's a matter of degree, not conceptual purity.

And of course, any secret identity she has isn't her entire life. How much a part of it is going to vary, and you're back to matters of degree again.

But again, I never had a problem with her having a secret identity, so I suppose I simply look at the character differently.

kdb

[Bound4olympus]

My feeling isn't that she can't ever lie, but that she can't make her entire life a lie.

I think there's a big difference between those two.

When did she make her entire life a lie? She doesn't spend her entire life as Diana Prince, and I don't think we've really seen her form personal relationships with people (aside from Tom, who now knows her identity) in this persona.

It's just really not that big of a deal either way, but the argument for it is a much better argument than the argument against. This aspect of the character has been unexplored for a very long time, and up until now has been a discarded piece of the characters history. Truth is definitely not the most important aspect of Wonder Woman, and for a long time it was just a function of her lasso, one small aspect of the character yet now it is seen as more of an integral part of Diana than her first and more famous concept. Thats just silly. What is an Avatar of truth anyway?

Also it is cheat to say that Superman and Batman don't lie about their identity because they were born with they're names. You never hear Clark Kent say, "and by the way I'm wearing red and blue tights under my suit and I'm an space alien that could pound you to soup in a second or melt you with my laser eyes" to every person he makes acquaintance with, and that my friends is a gross omission.

[Kurt Busiek]

As a major DC superhero that didn't have a secret identity, she was something unique.

Actually, she wasn't. Aquaman had a civilian name, but not a secret identity, so he'd had the "major superhero without secret ID" area covered decades earlier.

kdb

[BnL]

I was adamantly opposed to the secret ID initially. I've kind of softened to the general idea of it though, but the execution has to be right, and it just wasn't. It made no sense for the character, as established Post-Crisis, at all. You can't just have her doing something completely out of character all the sudden. It was sloppy to just have her randomly decide that she doesn't know who she is or what her values are, and then become a secret agent for the American government. That's not Wonder Woman. I can see the value in wanting to restore something that was a part of the character for so many years of her existence, but the relaunch didn't sell it. And really, I don't think she even needs to have a job in her civilian identity, because she already had a career, as the ambassador or her people. The secret, or "private" identity as it was called in Trinity, can just be something she uses in her downtime in order to not draw attention to herself or her loved ones, and experience day to day life as an anonymous woman.

[Flâneur]

No offense, but you're just repeating the same arguments that didn't win me over before; unless there's something new to them, they're unlikely to work the third or fourth or sixteenth time.

But it's no big deal -- you don't have to like her secret identity. I'm just saying that the reasons you find it unworkable don't convince me, so I don't agree.
None taken.

I wasn't realistically thinking I could convince you or trying to; I don't that ever works on message boards unless you present a shit load of explicit evidence. I was just trying to explain the difference in how I felt you interpreted my view and what my view is.

I didn't cite Silver Age popularity specifically; that was just part of her decades of popularity.
My mistake.

More like saying that if someone argued that the dialogue from 1940 to 1986 was completely and conceptually wrong for the character and the character couldn't possibly work with that approach, I'd disagree -- clearly, the character worked for years that way, so it wasn't any sort of "fatal flaw."

What Gail (and others) choose to do today doesn't have to be any one single interpretation -- there were numerous interpretations over the decades she had a secret identity, after all. It's the idea that all of those interpretations are conceptually broken that I can't agree with.

kdb
I can understand what you're saying, in part. It's not a fatal flaw to Wonder Woman if Diana Prince exists. She won't fall apart if Diana Prince exists and the book will go on and it could be enjoyable too (I enjoyed the Circle, after all, and Prince had a presence there, however minimal). However I think the concept is flawed, broken, in that it doesn't fit with what's provided and it can't be fixed without a rather large overhaul. I'm not interested in that overhaul.

[meek?]

I'm a fan of the Diana Prince identity.

And I don't see its existence as a lie or a fraud if being Diana Prince allows other pre-existing dimensions of Diana's persona (outside of being royalty, an Amazon, and a superhero) to thrive. It allows us to experience more of her human side... and even American side so more can relate to her as a person. As an immigrant, I know that duality makes for interesting conflict and stories. I see it as an opportunity not to be missed for more development and further definition of the character.

Peace.

[RealWonderman]

LOVE Diana Prince! Can she get a pony tail though?:biggrin:

[MinaRho1]

I'm a fan of the Diana Prince identity.

And I don't see its existence as a lie or a fraud if being Diana Prince allows other pre-existing dimensions of Diana's persona (outside of being royalty, an Amazon, and a superhero) to thrive. It allows us to experience more of her human side...

Peace.

She already IS human. That's what people don't get. She has hopes, dreams. She gets her heart broken. She chooses to see the best in people. She even bleeds red blood. How much more human can you be? Its not the situation, name, or clothes that make her human. Its writing her as a human. Good old fashion characterization. I think writers have too difficult a time to see her as human, so Diana Prince is a crutch.

Sorry to offend.

Ignore the whole Goddess of Truth thing. Put that aside for now. All the greatest character moments for Diana that I've seen were when she was just Diana or wonder woman. I have never seen the necessity for Diana Prince, because I have never seen good character moments for her as Diana that she could NOT have otherwise. If its superfluous and needs a lot of overexplaining, than its in the way.

[AaronJ]

I think you're drawing distinctions that will allow the character to be dishonest where you're okay with it, but after that it's suddenly conceptually unworkable. But even doing that establishes that her truthfulness need not be absolute, so it's a matter of degree, not conceptual purity.

And of course, any secret identity she has isn't her entire life. How much a part of it is going to vary, and you're back to matters of degree again.

But again, I never had a problem with her having a secret identity, so I suppose I simply look at the character differently.

kdb

I just meant that I would never say that she was "incapable of lying" or something like that, because no one, not even Diana, is perfect.

And you're right: It is a matter of degree for me.


When did she make her entire life a lie? She doesn't spend her entire life as Diana Prince, and I don't think we've really seen her form personal relationships with people (aside from Tom, who now knows her identity) in this persona.

Creating an entire life that's false is my problem. Sure, we haven't seen all the mundane details (making up a personal history, a fake SSN, a fake work history, a fake college degree, etc.) but those things would need to be in place for her to function as she does, as "Diana Prince, Agent of DoMA".


It's just really not that big of a deal either way, but the argument for it is a much better argument than the argument against.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, here.

[Major Comma]

It would be interesting to see s a story where Diana gives HER own perspective abot her Diana Prince persona .

[AaronJ]

It would be interesting to see s a story where Diana gives HER own perspective abot her Diana Prince persona .

Heh! Seems very early 20th century theatre. :)

[Kurt Busiek]

I just meant that I would never say that she was "incapable of lying" or something like that, because no one, not even Diana, is perfect.

I suppose the point I'd quibble with here is the idea that lying needs to happen because of an imperfection, as opposed to being a deliberately-chosen tactic.

kdb

[meek?]

She already IS human. That's what people don't get. She has hopes, dreams. She gets her heart broken. She chooses to see the best in people. She even bleeds red blood. How much more human can you be? Its not the situation, name, or clothes that make her human. Its writing her as a human. Good old fashion characterization. I think writers have too difficult a time to see her as human, so Diana Prince is a crutch.

I actually meant "human" in less the literal sense. Sorry. :biggrin: Maybe I should have used "normal." Yes, I'm aware she does and feel all those things and she can be everything to everyone, but can everyone else be what they truly are around her as Wonder Woman or Princess Diana (w/o being forced by lasso, of course :biggrin: )? When she's this big name icon and celebrity, can everyone else be @ ease and truthful about who they are around her?

That's one of the benefits (and not a crutch) of having a Diana Prince identity. Not only does it make sense strategically for her to carry out her missions, affording her the opportunities, resources, and/or access she otherwise would not have as a self-sufficient superhero... (she can't and shouldn't always rely on Batman's wealth and Oracle's access)... but it also allows her to get in touch and interact w/ other "normal" people so that she can ground her own humanity. It's what she wants and it's what's been established. She felt too separate and she had the desire to be included for her own self-improvement and clarity. Maybe it just needs to be explored more.

My initial response was made to address the growing notion that the identity is a "lie" when it's not. It's just another side of who she is that she can freely express in ways that she can't as a superhero and idol. Kurt Busiek made it clear in TRINITY that Diana Prince is a "private identity" as she is still essentially herself.



Sorry to offend.

None taken! I forgive you for not wanting the Diana Prince identity if you can forgive me for liking it. :wink:

Agree to disagree and all that.



Ignore the whole Goddess of Truth thing. Put that aside for now. All the greatest character moments for Diana that I've seen were when she was just Diana or wonder woman. I have never seen the necessity for Diana Prince, because I have never seen good character moments for her as Diana that she could NOT have otherwise. If its superfluous and needs a lot of overexplaining, than its in the way.

Maybe it's just something Gail can further address? I dunno. I already bought it since the new series' opening arc so no resistance from me. Of course I started out "wanting" to like these concepts so that made it all digestable and convincing from the get-go.

It just boils down to preference and what I can't and won't agree w/ is when people (not you) attempt to turn opinion into fact.

To add more fuel to the fire... I also like that she is depowered when she's in this private identity. :biggrin: It helps to further separate her from being perceived as just a "female Clark Kent" as there is more risk and bravery involved w/ her choice.

Peace.

[meek?]

It would be interesting to see s a story where Diana gives HER own perspective abot her Diana Prince persona .

I agree. Sounds like it may be needed.

Peace.

[Deus ex Chris]

I don't like Wonder Woman having a secret identity, especially given the logic behind its return. How exactly is working as a government super-spy for an agency focused on policing super-beings humanizing? I feel we got more humanizing moments from the embassy setting, and we also got many great incidents of mythology mixing with the mundane. I love the idea of a Wonder Woman who lives her life in the open, and I'd really like to see a return to that. Also, a certain Minotaur needs to make his big return.

[MinaRho1]

I don't like Wonder Woman having a secret identity, especially given the logic behind it's return. How exactly is working as a government super-spy for an agency focused on policing super-beings humanizing? I feel we got more humanizing moments from the embassy setting, and we also got many great incidents of mythology mixing with the mundane. I love the idea of a Wonder Woman who lives her life in the open, and I'd really like to see a return to that. Also, a certain Minotaur needs to make his big return.

I love Ferdinand! Does he count as an amazon? Tom is an amazon now. Has HE ever cooked crepes for Diana?

[CBikle]

How exactly is working as a government super-spy for an agency focused on policing super-beings humanizing?

I think the super-spy angle was implemented to tell different types of Wonder woman stories; I don't think it was ever intended to make her more relateable.

Having Diana work in the Department of Metahuman Affairs as a high-level field agent allows for interesting plot hooks, but the downside is that it doesn't really make a lot of sense: Diana is from an exotic locale that had been isolated from "man's world", so the notion of her maintaining a long-term deep cover ID in a super-paranoid espionage environ like the DMA seems unlikely and really a poor choice on her part.

I guess some part of Diana just enjoys beating up on super-villains and she wanted a vocation that would allow her to continue doing so.

[hichaec]

Here's why I like the secret identity:

It's true that Diana already is human, so I don't think she needs a secret identity to feel or act more "normal." However, her being visibly, obviously Wonder Woman all the time does change how the world (the in-comics world, that is) sees her and interacts with her. I think it would be worthwhile and even compelling to read about Diana's interactions with a world that doesn't know straight out of the gate that she's special. Not all the time, of course, but I do think there are stories to be told about Diana interacting with people who aren't constantly in awe of her.

It doesn't make her more human, but it does allow for her to be in more "human" situations, socially speaking. She's still Diana Prince and still Wonder Woman all the time, and she shouldn't have to "play the part" of Diana Prince; she should just be herself while out of costume and not necessarily tell everyone that she can fly and stuff.

[VDCNI]

I must admit that I was quite happy when Perez got rid of the Diana Prince identity because I never really felt it added much to the book or the character. Perhaps it's because in the 80's they were never very consistent with Diana Prince until the very end - at one point it seemed like every new writer gave her a new job.

That said I had no real objection to her being brought back but I really don't see the point of making her a secret agent since it just makes Diana Prince a non super powered version of Wonder Woman. Surely a secret identity should bring a different aspect to the character.

[Deus ex Chris]

I think the super-spy angle was implemented to tell different types of Wonder woman stories; I don't think it was ever intended to make her more relateable.
I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall Didio or perhaps Heinberg stating that the Diana Prince stuff was meant to make her more relatable. I could be wrong. Regardless, it certainly hasn't.

[Damo]

Actually, she wasn't. Aquaman had a civilian name, but not a secret identity, so he'd had the "major superhero without secret ID" area covered decades earlier.

kdb

While Arthur didn't have a secret identity, I feel that fact is somewhat negated by Arthur's tendency to be rather antisocial (particularly post-Crisis). While Wonder Woman is remarkably open to the world, Arthur often comes across as being very grudging with interactions outside of his inner circle. Diana is a willing and eager Ambassador, presenting herself to everyone from every nation. Arthur is an often reluctant king, frequently considering his station an unwelcome burden, and shunning the world stage whenever possible. Diana had a relatively open door policy, went to book signings and speaking tours, worked in a Taco Whiz (ahem), etc. whereas Aquaman... Aquaman lives underwater. Not very approachable for most people. I'd definitely say that Diana had something unique going on. I'd also say that her role as Ambassador was finally coming into its own in the Jimenez and Perez runs, and I'm terribly saddened to see it all torn down in favor of the nostalgia-fueled return of Diana Prince, just in time to (IMHO) taint Gail's run.

And I'm among those that see "Diana Prince" as the worst secret identity of any major hero. Whether she's a nurse, a secretary, a mod boutique owner, working in military intelligence, "getting to know how normal people live" by fighting supervillains as a jet-pack wearing superspy, or whatever we've got lined up for her this week, I've never read a "Diana Prince" that I could stand. I'm not adverse to her slipping on something casual to go out and have dinner with Etta, or something along those lines, but the "life" of Diana Prince has always been an unwelcome distraction in the book. It's never been good, and it takes pages away from better things. And while I understand the argument that there's such a thing as taking devotion to the truth so far... she's currently going around forging records, perpetuating a massive sham, saying she's lived and worked in all sorts of places that she has not, all while hiding her identity from people we've been told she's trying to befriend. Say what you will, but that bugs the hell out of me. If the Lasso of Truth could talk I think it'd be saying "Shame on you!"

Mostly though, I'm just sad that the excellent work with Diana the Ambassador was utterly torpedoed in favor of a secret identity that always struck me as being there "because every superhero has to have a secret identity, don't they?"

[West Mantooth]

Mostly though, I'm just sad that the excellent work with Diana the Ambassador was utterly torpedoed in favor of a secret identity that always struck me as being there "because every superhero has to have a secret identity, don't they?"

As someone who didn't read Rucka's run, I would like fans of the embassy idea's opinions.

Was that story structure sustainable in the long run?

As her own title it's okay, but in the larger DCU, I just kept thinking that the duality of it would be a problem. At some point, she'd contradict her actions in her main title with the demands of "big super action" in another title. In the real world, ambassadors follow the policy of their respective governments, but Wondy was the policy itself.

[CBikle]

While Arthur didn't have a secret identity, I feel that fact is somewhat negated by Arthur's tendency to be rather antisocial (particularly post-Crisis).

In the comics, I don't think Aquaman has ever been portrayed as antisocial (occasionally a little testy though).

In the silver-age, he regularly worked with the Coast Guard and he's been a superhero longer than he's been the ruler of Atlantis.

I don't think any of this has changed, post-Crisis.

From what I recall, the "Arthur Curry" ID was there, but wasn't all that important to Aquaman or the writers. I guess his job was maintaining and running the lighthouse he grew up in ?

[americanwonder]

Hi Meek, nothing personal and no offense intended, but, your post gave me a chuckle.

... My initial response was made to address the growing notion that the identity is a "lie" when it's not...
It just boils down to preference and what I can't and won't agree w/ is when people (not you) attempt to turn opinion into fact.

Please explain to me how her "secrect" ID is not a lie?

Did she actually graduate with a Masters from Hopkins or work as Security Director for WayneCorp? Maybe it was all off-panel or happened between one crisis or another. If not, it's a lie.

When she cashes that check from a job based on a fake resume it's fraud.

Unless I'm missing something, that's not opinion; it is fact - at least in the US.

Here's a big difference with Clark - he actually went to college and got his job based on his own actual accomplishments. Sure, he's not telling the whole truth (none of us do); but what he is telling people isn't completely made up either.
- - - - - - - - - - -

Another point of contention (imo): She's gambling with other people's lives.

Everytime Diana needs "personal time," as Etta put it, she leaves her team short-handed - they sent in six agents and suddenly have five. Sure, she shows up all glamorous and powerful now to save the day - only to then play the overused, "why is Diana never around when WW is?" If you were on a super-spy swat team, would you like working with someone who disappeared as soon as things got going and you never know when/if she's coming back?

[BatmanX]

I like Diana Prince ego!!!! It makes for more interesting topics....

[americanwonder]

As someone who didn't read Rucka's run, I would like fans of the embassy idea's opinions.

Was that story structure sustainable in the long run?

Hi West Mantooth, I have to warn you, Rucka's run is my favorite; I reread the whole thing at least once a year (got me through the dark times of AA).

Speaking from my bias, ignorant, and very un-creative point-of-view, I'd say it was a great story structure that could be sustained, and thrive, for a long, long time.

For starters, it was more unique - any number of characters can be a super-spy with the DMA; how many run their own embassy? It can also keep Diana going in a number of different directions, often at the same time: negotiations with the UN, press conferences, international conflicts, etc. It's a super-powered Tom Clancy (or Greg Rucka) novel.

But, like so many things, that all depends on how the creative minds in charge choose to use it.


As her own title it's okay, but in the larger DCU, I just kept thinking that the duality of it would be a problem. At some point, she'd contradict her actions in her main title with the demands of "big super action" in another title. In the real world, ambassadors follow the policy of their respective governments, but Wondy was the policy itself.

The duality and potential for conflict is one reason I like it. If all the super-heroes are just a hive-mind of think-alikes, there's really not a lot of flavor. But, when Diana cracks a neck and Clark and Bruce don't know what do with themselves, that's when you get some good stuff.

Besides, do you think working for the US government is only going to put her in positions where she never has to question what she's been ordered to do? Makes a lot more sense to me for her to be an ambassador for her people than to be a working-bee following the orders of US homeland security (and I love the US).

[CBikle]

Another point of contention (imo): She's gambling with other people's lives.

Everytime Diana needs "personal time," as Etta put it, she leaves her team short-handed - they sent in six agents and suddenly have five. Sure, she shows up all glamorous and powerful now to save the day - only to then play the overused, "why is Diana never around when WW is?" If you were on a super-spy swat team, would you like working with someone who disappeared as soon as things got going and you never know when/if she's coming back?

That's a very good point.

As a rationalization, if you take a step back and look at two of the principal characters of the Dept. of Metahuman Affairs (Director Steel and Nemesis), you basically have two very competent loose cannons with checkered pasts.

- Nemesis dropped out of government service and became a fugitive to engage in a one-man vigilante crusade against a shadowy criminal organization (which, to his credit, he eventually destroyed).

- Sarge Steel was a 1950's PI who's assistance with espionage cases led to his
becoming a "special agent" and eventually that led to his running an espionage agency where he served with distinction until he was mind controlled by Mr. Mind into dropping an A-Bomb on an American city.

With these two, maybe Diana Prince wasn't the one that the US Govt. was most concerned over...

[AdamYJ]

I think of Clark as being Superman's self-image. He doesn't think he's anything special, and he often feels awkward and out-of-place. When he's "on duty" as Superman, he has to put all doubts aside, because everyone is looking up to him and depending on him.When he's Clark, nobody expects anything from him, so he can relax and let out his dorky side. If anything, being Clark is a vacation.

I suppose that makes sense. It does for a lot of other super-heroes. Spider-Man being a prime example, but I also see it working for the likes of Flash and Green Lantern. I figured Barry would act more dynamic and adventurous in costume, because the Flash is kind of a separate thing from all his regular responsibilities. And Hal would act more serious and responsible as GL, because he has to answer to the Guardians. However, with Superman, people seem to make a point of how incredible the disguise would have to be, so I figured it was more complex than that.

As for Diana Prince, I like the idea, but I don't always like the execution. I think it might be better if there was a greater degree of contrast between her civilian ID and her superhero ID. Having a superhero playing a superspy doesn't quite create much in the way of that old, classic duality. Maybe if she were just a desk agent or something it would work better.

[buttler]

If we're applying that standard, most secret IDs are toast. Even Spider-Man's, since when Marvel staffers dressed up as Spidey to conduct the weekly office tours, I always knew who it was from their height, build and body language.

While the costumes do require some suspension of disbelief, I kind of love it when things that the costumes don't hide are occasionally pointed out, like a while back in JMS's run when a guy said to Spider-Man, "Go ahead, ask me again with that Queens accent how I know you're from the neighborhood."

[Hyperion322]

I need to get to it...the last couple stories didn't really allow for it. But it IS coming, and some changes, too!

Yay and ... *gulp* -- ?

~ Hype

[Hyperion322]

Folks, don't forget, Diana Prince is a very human woman, both without powers, and without the celebrity of Wonder Woman. This definitely needs to be explored and can soooooo be used to the former Amazon's benefit.

~ Hype

[Hyperion322]

I'm a fan of the Diana Prince identity.

And I don't see its existence as a lie or a fraud if being Diana Prince allows other pre-existing dimensions of Diana's persona (outside of being royalty, an Amazon, and a superhero) to thrive. I see it as an opportunity not to be missed for more development and further definition of the character.



YES.

~ Hype

[Hyperion322]

Then my vote would be to drop this "avatar of truth" stuff that's apparently distorted the character so badly. It's a fairly recent addition, and if it's so overwhelming that it renders an amazon, someone trained in combat and the skills associated therewith unable to deceive anyone, then it should probably be dropped.


I just don't buy the premise that having a secret identity breaks the character. She had it for decades, during which time she became one of the most popular and recognizable fictional characters in the world. If making her an avatar of truth breaks the character, it clearly must have been a mistake, since adding it apparently broke the character that had become so popular the world around.

I don't think that it does, but if the choice is between her being unable to lie at all, and her being able to expose the truth in others but not broadcast her own secrets, I prefer the latter.

But that's me. This is also one of the reasons I find myself drawing away from wanting to write books with major characters sometimes; there are multiple opposed factions in the audiences that are entrenched camps, each determined that what the other camps like is a sin that destroys the character. When that happens, there's literally nothing creators can do that won't wind up with some part of the audience up in arms and calling for their head, usually for disrespecting the character and the audience, even if there's another part of the audience that thinks, equally passionately, that it's disrespectful not to embrace whatever facets the first camp is excoriating.

When that sort of thing starts to happen, I want to get as far away from these characters as I can and never come back, because there's no winning any more. It's not a case that some people won't like the material; that's always the case. It's that it becomes a crusade to stop the heretic creators, as partisan and hostile as national politics; it's what they used to call a "hostile work environment," where ordinary criticism has given way to a near-religious schism.

And then I wake up the next morning, and usually it's just comics again.

In the end, it's nice that you can like the character so much, and so can I, even though we like different stuff.

kdb

YES and you make total and for real sense, Kurt. Also, more power to you, Gail, J, Mark, and others who attempt at writing a character like Wonder Woman. Sometimes there's just no winning among fans.

~ Hype

[raporfest]

I'm really not a fan of scecret identity mainly for the reason for it being used and that job she chose is just ridiculous. You're too "perfect" for trying make people's lives better and you're not "human" enough? Come on!!! Also why would an Ambassdor of peace of a foriegn nation even think of become a U.S government secret agent in tight white jump suit because she's not human enough? Being a librarian or a teacher who fit her character more and you wouldn't be looking above average citizens like when you are a secret agent.

[West Mantooth]

Speaking from my bias, ignorant, and very un-creative point-of-view, I'd say it was a great story structure that could be sustained, and thrive, for a long, long time.

For starters, it was more unique - any number of characters can be a super-spy with the DMA; how many run their own embassy? It can also keep Diana going in a number of different directions, often at the same time: negotiations with the UN, press conferences, international conflicts, etc. It's a super-powered Tom Clancy (or Greg Rucka) novel.

The duality and potential for conflict is one reason I like it. If all the super-heroes are just a hive-mind of think-alikes, there's really not a lot of flavor. But, when Diana cracks a neck and Clark and Bruce don't know what do with themselves, that's when you get some good stuff.

Besides, do you think working for the US government is only going to put her in positions where she never has to question what she's been ordered to do? Makes a lot more sense to me for her to be an ambassador for her people than to be a working-bee following the orders of US homeland security (and I love the US).

Thanks for replying. I wanted to hear fans opinions.

I've come to the realization that some plot points are more universally applicable for multiple writers to create stories from(good or bad) and some situations are just too distinctive that outside of that writer, other people probably wouldn't be able to follow it.

The idea of Wonder Woman being at odds with Bats and Supes because of a stance should took at the embassy in relation to a similar situation is something I thought would be a good story, but then I figured it would become too repetitive and confusing in the modern comics era where readers obsesses over continuity.

[DiogoR]

I like the Diana Prince identity...but I think it should be different from the WW persona...I don't like the idea of Diana beginning a fight as human and two pages later showing up as Wonder Woman. She took the identity because she was going to give up her WW persona, so keeping the DMA job is kind of pointless...Maybe she needs a new one!

[J.R. LeMar]

Anyone else like Diana Prince as much as Princess Diana or Wonder Woman?


I do thing that a secret identity is a good thing, it's a tradition of superheroes. The conflict have having to maintain two identities, living separate lives, etc. adds significant drama to the stories. Outside of the FF, I think heroes are more interesting when they're not "on" all the time.

[RealWonderman]

I need to get to it...the last couple stories didn't really allow for it. But it IS coming, and some changes, too!

I just fell in love with you all over again, Ms. Simone!

[RealWonderman]

Then my vote would be to drop this "avatar of truth" stuff that's apparently distorted the character so badly. It's a fairly recent addition, and if it's so overwhelming that it renders an amazon, someone trained in combat and the skills associated therewith unable to deceive anyone, then it should probably be dropped.

She can't sneak up on anyone; that's a form of deception. No feinting in combat; that's deception. And back when she was acting as an ambassador, no negotiating that doesn't involve putting all your cards on the table face up; that's trying to trick the other guy into thinking something that's not true.

She must be the worst poker player on Earth, too. And beyond.

I mean, I don't have a problem with it myself -- but I always figured her being a truth-figure was a power, not a crippling limitation. Some people do have this idea that Wonder Woman can't possibly ever lie, despite the fact that she's been doing it longer than most of us have been alive. Heck, some people seem to think Superman can't possibly lie either, mainly rooted, I think, in a single line from the movie, and they get wound up about all the many, many, many times he's lied before and since, like the people who insist that "last son of Krypton" means "sole survivor," even though it was popularized at a time when there were thousands of survivors.

So it goes. Another example of how these characters are rich enough so that people can like them for reasons that other people who also like the characters just can't stand.

I just don't buy the premise that having a secret identity breaks the character. She had it for decades, during which time she became one of the most popular and recognizable fictional characters in the world. If making her an avatar of truth breaks the character, it clearly must have been a mistake, since adding it apparently broke the character that had become so popular the world around.

I don't think that it does, but if the choice is between her being unable to lie at all, and her being able to expose the truth in others but not broadcast her own secrets, I prefer the latter.

But that's me. This is also one of the reasons I find myself drawing away from wanting to write books with major characters sometimes; there are multiple opposed factions in the audiences that are entrenched camps, each determined that what the other camps like is a sin that destroys the character. When that happens, there's literally nothing creators can do that won't wind up with some part of the audience up in arms and calling for their head, usually for disrespecting the character and the audience, even if there's another part of the audience that thinks, equally passionately, that it's disrespectful not to embrace whatever facets the first camp is excoriating.

When that sort of thing starts to happen, I want to get as far away from these characters as I can and never come back, because there's no winning any more. It's not a case that some people won't like the material; that's always the case. It's that it becomes a crusade to stop the heretic creators, as partisan and hostile as national politics; it's what they used to call a "hostile work environment," where ordinary criticism has given way to a near-religious schism.

And then I wake up the next morning, and usually it's just comics again.

In the end, it's nice that you can like the character so much, and so can I, even though we like different stuff.

kdb

I LOVE KURT BUSIEK. PERIOD.

[RealWonderman]

Spies don't get given different names from anyone else; I'm sure they have around the same proportion of names you'd giggle at as the rest of the populace.

And DC does have a spy named King Faraday, so he's waaaaaaay ahead in the goofy name department. Though modern generations may not get the joke as well as those who were around when he debuted.

kdb

AHHHHHHHHH!!!! King-for-a-day!!!!!!!!!!!! JUST got it!!!! Awesome!!!!:biggrin:

[RealWonderman]

I actually meant "human" in less the literal sense. Sorry. :biggrin: Maybe I should have used "normal." Yes, I'm aware she does and feel all those things and she can be everything to everyone, but can everyone else be what they truly are around her as Wonder Woman or Princess Diana (w/o being forced by lasso, of course :biggrin: )? When she's this big name icon and celebrity, can everyone else be @ ease and truthful about who they are around her?

That's one of the benefits (and not a crutch) of having a Diana Prince identity. Not only does it make sense strategically for her to carry out her missions, affording her the opportunities, resources, and/or access she otherwise would not have as a self-sufficient superhero... (she can't and shouldn't always rely on Batman's wealth and Oracle's access)... but it also allows her to get in touch and interact w/ other "normal" people so that she can ground her own humanity. It's what she wants and it's what's been established. She felt too separate and she had the desire to be included for her own self-improvement and clarity. Maybe it just needs to be explored more.

My initial response was made to address the growing notion that the identity is a "lie" when it's not. It's just another side of who she is that she can freely express in ways that she can't as a superhero and idol. Kurt Busiek made it clear in TRINITY that Diana Prince is a "private identity" as she is still essentially herself.



None taken! I forgive you for not wanting the Diana Prince identity if you can forgive me for liking it. :wink:

Agree to disagree and all that.



Maybe it's just something Gail can further address? I dunno. I already bought it since the new series' opening arc so no resistance from me. Of course I started out "wanting" to like these concepts so that made it all digestable and convincing from the get-go.

It just boils down to preference and what I can't and won't agree w/ is when people (not you) attempt to turn opinion into fact.

To add more fuel to the fire... I also like that she is depowered when she's in this private identity. :biggrin: It helps to further separate her from being perceived as just a "female Clark Kent" as there is more risk and bravery involved w/ her choice.

Peace.

I have to agree with ALL of this! I mentioned once that working at DMA was a great idea (maybe not as a field agent though...) because it was Diana's "in" for intel...most people replied to that with "she's got Oracle" or "she's got Batman for intel" or "she's got J'onn"...don't care much about that...i like that she has DIANA PRINCE'S intel!!!!

[meek?]

i like that she has DIANA PRINCE'S intel!!!!

Indeed!

Peace.

[Kyle Sing]

I agree wholeheartedly.

I'd like to see Gail write a "Day in the Life of Diana Prince" story.

Just an aside, I love Gail on Diana, but in light of Diana using the Diana Prince identity again I think Greg Rucka could write THE LIVING HELL out of Diana as super-hero and civilian considering his expertise on writing government secret-espionage-dramas!

I proposed a mini-series to Greg at Comic Bloc months ago: Diana Prince: YEAR ONE in which he would write Diana's entry into Washington and the DMA. He liked the idea. I hope Gail will do more with Diana as civvie!

Peace,

kyle

[Kyle Sing]

Then my vote would be to drop this "avatar of truth" stuff that's apparently distorted the character so badly. It's a fairly recent addition, and if it's so overwhelming that it renders an amazon, someone trained in combat and the skills associated therewith unable to deceive anyone, then it should probably be dropped.

She can't sneak up on anyone; that's a form of deception. No feinting in combat; that's deception. And back when she was acting as an ambassador, no negotiating that doesn't involve putting all your cards on the table face up; that's trying to trick the other guy into thinking something that's not true.

She must be the worst poker player on Earth, too. And beyond.

I mean, I don't have a problem with it myself -- but I always figured her being a truth-figure was a power, not a crippling limitation. Some people do have this idea that Wonder Woman can't possibly ever lie, despite the fact that she's been doing it longer than most of us have been alive. Heck, some people seem to think Superman can't possibly lie either, mainly rooted, I think, in a single line from the movie, and they get wound up about all the many, many, many times he's lied before and since, like the people who insist that "last son of Krypton" means "sole survivor," even though it was popularized at a time when there were thousands of survivors.

So it goes. Another example of how these characters are rich enough so that people can like them for reasons that other people who also like the characters just can't stand.

I just don't buy the premise that having a secret identity breaks the character. She had it for decades, during which time she became one of the most popular and recognizable fictional characters in the world. If making her an avatar of truth breaks the character, it clearly must have been a mistake, since adding it apparently broke the character that had become so popular the world around.

I don't think that it does, but if the choice is between her being unable to lie at all, and her being able to expose the truth in others but not broadcast her own secrets, I prefer the latter.

But that's me. This is also one of the reasons I find myself drawing away from wanting to write books with major characters sometimes; there are multiple opposed factions in the audiences that are entrenched camps, each determined that what the other camps like is a sin that destroys the character. When that happens, there's literally nothing creators can do that won't wind up with some part of the audience up in arms and calling for their head, usually for disrespecting the character and the audience, even if there's another part of the audience that thinks, equally passionately, that it's disrespectful not to embrace whatever facets the first camp is excoriating.

When that sort of thing starts to happen, I want to get as far away from these characters as I can and never come back, because there's no winning any more. It's not a case that some people won't like the material; that's always the case. It's that it becomes a crusade to stop the heretic creators, as partisan and hostile as national politics; it's what they used to call a "hostile work environment," where ordinary criticism has given way to a near-religious schism.

And then I wake up the next morning, and usually it's just comics again.

In the end, it's nice that you can like the character so much, and so can I, even though we like different stuff.

kdb

You are absolutely right Kurt!! And as a fan of WW for years I am glad there is someone inside DC who understands that while the reboot was brilliant it did throw the baby out with the bathwater in so many ways; no more Diana Prince, no Invisible Jet until years later, no more Steve Trevor for the most part. They undid the icon in so many ways. They confused the characters uniqueness and occasionally quirky history with some of the poorer portrayals of the character and tossed out the fun.

You should never throw out parts of a character's history. Instead writer's shuld be challenged to make it work.

It can be done. You do it, Mark Waid, Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison and the lovely Gail Simone all have done it. It is time Wonder Woman as a character stopped getting penalized and beat up by having her history dumped because of too many corny stories in the 60s or 70s.

The concepts and familiar trappings of Wonder Woman; from Diana Prince to the Invisible Jet to Steve Trevor to the Purple Ray to the Cheetah can ALL work if the vision is there.

DC a TON of talent and the right writer on the book at present. I look forward to seeing what has made Diana an icon jump from the page even more than it already has.

Peace,

Kyle

[Kyle Sing]

Wonder Woman as Diana Prince worked for over 45 years before she was rebooted and the civilian ID still works in the right hands just like any super-hero convention.

The idea that William Moulton Marston got it wrong on his own creation is just silly. Moreover, Diana Prince is part of what makes Wonder Woman an icon.

Bringing it back was the right decision.

[Constantine Drakon]

Bringing it back was the right decision.

No, it was not.




The idea that William Moulton Marston got it wrong on his own creation is just silly. Moreover, Diana Prince is part of what makes Wonder Woman an icon.


Marston got a lot of things wrong.

There's no argument that bothers me more than "this is old, therefore it's superior."

[Kyle Sing]

No, it was not.



Marston got a lot of things wrong.

There's no argument that bothers me more than "this is old, therefore it's superior."

Exactly, and that is not the point I am making.

My point is that Wonder Woman is the only major super-hero character and property that has had more of her history and conventions thrown out through retcons than has been added or restored like Green Lantern or Superman, and that is one of the primary reasons people don't connect to her character as much.

No other super-hero has had their myth and familiar trappings so messed with and I feel that some of the retconning done, while absolutely well-intentioned, was in some ways, certainly not overtly, disrespectful to the established history the cemented Wonder Woman as an icon.

On the other hand Superman, Green Lantern, and the Flash have had their rich histories restored and each is experiencing a revival of interest from new and old readers alike.

Diana should not be left out.

I understand that you disagree with me and I respect your right to hold your opinion, but this is a thread devoted to the position of those that like the Diana Prince ID so it is doubtful that you read much to make you happy in this thread or change your mind.

I still respect your right to your opinion even if I do not share it.

Peace,

Kyle

[Vigo the Carpathian]

It's true that Wonder Woman keeps having things thrown out, and that has hurt her as a character.

But "Diana Prince" was not a loss. In fact, Jettisoning Diana Prince was a vast improvement. It isn't a bad secret identity, it was the bad secret identity, the Alpha-bad i.d., of which all other bad secret identities are merely pale shadows.

That sounds like a nasty rant, doesn't it? Well I just want to get the point across that there are people as passionately against the secret id as you are for passionately in favor of it (while agreeing to disagree, of course. Hey, it's just comics).

The problem is, in order for you to get back that "rich history" you love, I lose the Wonder Woman without a secret identity that I love. For her "rich history" to return, her "rich present" has to be kicked to the curb. And every issue that Diana Prince plays a significant role (which, thankfully, hasn't been for a while) I have to wonder if I should drop the book or not. There's a lot I like about Gail's run, but the only way DC can judge our feelings is by sales, and I'd hate to think my money is being counted as a vote in favor of something I despise as much as "Diana Prince".

[meek?]

Wow.

Well, for the record, I really like the Diana Prince private ID and, whether or not it's kept, I completely trust in Gail's vision for the character and I'm totally open for the creator's ideas and developments.

Passion is good, but I'm just not militant about it. Not all that interested in writing a WW that fits my personal ideals/preferences and I'd rather just read/know about what happens next from someone I trust to do the character justice.

Peace.