Your darkest comic book secrets (DC edition) [Archive]

Raharu

09-07-2009, 04:40 PM

I hate The Dark Knight Returns. I have no idea why people like it. In my opinion all it did was help usher in an era of dark and violent comics.

And I agree about Alex Ross. It's good for covers but not interiors.

Looking at DKR from this time period, I can see where you are coming from. When it was released though, it was a take on the character that was pretty radical, and connected with a lot of people because it put Batman in a new light, and it felt like it made sense. I also kind of agree with you on the 'dark and violent', but that's more the fault of future writers who simply didn't 'get it', and only looked at that side of it. Like Watchmen.

Speaking of Watchmen...I guess I'll just say that I'm not hugely fond of it. I understand the influence and everything, but I never really connected with it as much as most did. I think of all Moore's work I think Watchment is one of my least favorites

SJNeal

09-07-2009, 04:40 PM

I've aired this secret in another thread, but oh well.

I really like the Dan Vado run on Justice League America, as well as all of Gerard Jones Justice League Europe/International/America era...

aut0matic

09-07-2009, 04:47 PM

team books are a pet peeve of mine.

unless everyone on the team are around the same power level, teams are absolutely ridiculous in my eyes. green arrow has no business hanging in a fight with green lantern. batman has no business hanging in a fight with superman. whenever large groups of superheroes come together to fight, the powerful ones are always downplayed to look like chumps or forget all of their powers to give the street level guys a chance to contribute.

also, grant morrison's not all that great. just another comic book writer to me.

EZMOHR

09-07-2009, 05:01 PM

Booster, Ted, and Guy Gardner r all about as one dimensional as u can get. In fact, it is true..the best thing Ted did was die.

olympichero62

09-07-2009, 05:04 PM

team books are a pet peeve of mine.

unless everyone on the team are around the same power level, teams are absolutely ridiculous in my eyes. green arrow has no business hanging in a fight with green lantern. batman has no business hanging in a fight with superman. whenever large groups of superheroes come together to fight, the powerful ones are always downplayed to look like chumps or forget all of their powers to give the street level guys a chance to contribute.

I agree with the majority of that, but I think a team book written well can be very good. But I think what it takes is for the writer to passionately care about all the characters in the book and not his/her favorites.

Also: I'm not a fan of Frank Miller at all.

True Herald

09-07-2009, 05:08 PM

Most of mine aren't really secrets; I've mentioned them time and again.

Teams I like:

The Detroit League (especially Vibe)
The Dan Vado Justice League (especially Bloodwynd)
The post-Zero-Hour Justice League (especially the Yazz)
Extreme Justice (especially the revamped Wonder Twins)
The New Guardians (I'm a fan of the Millennium crossover)

Characters I like:

Most of the New Bloods (I'm a fan of the Bloodlines crossover)
Most of the Planet DC heroes
Maya (one of the few elements that made the Gerard Jones JLE/JLI in any way worthwhile)
Mystek (Hooray for snarky, tomboyish-but-beautiful Korean girls who think nothing of parading around in their skivvies! :biggrin:)

Weird character changes that currently amuse me (it helps to know that the characters "get better"):

The Blackhawks taking on superhero identities
The Metal Men disguising themselves as humans

Currently overrated writers:

Geoff Johns
Grant Morrison

Psavell2

09-07-2009, 05:23 PM

As a matter of fact, the only thing I can stand by Frank Miller is Batman Year One. I thought that was great.

My feeling exactly. As for other personal contraversial views of mine...

I hated Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On A Serious Earth(or whatever that ridiculously long title was). I've been reading Cry For Justice, and it's like Deja Vu. I think if You put Grant Morrison's name on the covers of Cry For Justice without changing anything else about the issues, at least a third of the people bashing it would instead be ranting about it's genius and desperately trying to find hidden messages and symbolism in the background of every panel.

Also I'm LOVING Flash:Rebirth. I'm shamelessly enjoying each issue and anxiously awaiting the next while re-reading the previous ones. I think it's fun.

maniacmatt

09-07-2009, 05:31 PM

I bought the Final Crisis hardcover.
...
And liked it.

ryerye17

09-07-2009, 05:44 PM

I didn't understand The Killing Joke.

Matt K

09-07-2009, 05:57 PM

I disliked V for Vendetta, Watchmen and Flex Mentalo but I really enjoyed J. M. DeMatteis' The Spectre

Name Already Taken

09-07-2009, 06:08 PM

I am actually Rob Liefeld posing as one of you underdrawn "normies."

bongoes

09-07-2009, 06:15 PM

My feeling exactly. As for other personal contraversial views of mine...

I hated Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On A Serious Earth(or whatever that ridiculously long title was). I've been reading Cry For Justice, and it's like Deja Vu. I think if You put Grant Morrison's name on the covers of Cry For Justice without changing anything else about the issues, at least a third of the people bashing it would instead be ranting about it's genius and desperately trying to find hidden messages and symbolism in the background of every panel.

Arkham Asylum almost gave me nightmares the first time I read it. And that was only a couple months ago. It's the only thing by Grant Morrison I've read that I didn't like.

JurassicParkIsAnAwesomeMovie

09-07-2009, 06:34 PM

I like All-Star Batman and Robin

PlumeNoir

09-07-2009, 06:38 PM

I think I alluded to this before, but as a long time Hal fan, I actually liked it when he became Parallax and I liked Kyle Rayner from the start.

At the time, I was hoping that right after Zero Hour, DC was going to "restore" Hal and the people he "killed," but with their memories intact of the horrible things he done. Even though everything was "fixed" - people would still not trust him.

Mind you, I had seen the solicts at the time where they were talking about the original version of Emerald Twilight of the two sets of Guardians and Hal on the run. I thought that they were just tweaking the story and not completely redoing it...

AdamYJ

09-07-2009, 07:40 PM

These aren't really secrets, seeing as I don't really keep secrets about comics, but they do go against the norm:

I just don't get Grant Morrison comics. Either they're not as good as people say, or I'm just too stupid to understand them. Reading his JLA run, sometimes I didn't know what was going on.

I don't see what's so spectacular about the Wolfman and Perez New Teen Titans. I've tried to read it a couple times and the only character that really stood out for me was Terra, and that was before they revealed she was evil. It really just seems like a very average comic about a bunch of people with dated fashion sense (Perez draws everyone's style about a decade out-of-date).

I'm also enjoying Justice League: Cry For Justice.

I think Lex Luthor is the most overrated villian in the DC Universe. Well, maybe not as overrated as he is overexposed. I'm just getting sick of Luthor being played up so much.

Psavell2

09-07-2009, 10:44 PM

Arkham Asylum almost gave me nightmares the first time I read it. And that was only a couple months ago. It's the only thing by Grant Morrison I've read that I didn't like.

Really? Batman And Robin is the first thing of his that I've read that I do like. Of course I haven't read even nearly everything he's written, but if I didn't like the stuff I thought I was going to like, what are the odds I'd like something of his that I was sure I wouldn't like? I don't know, maybe Batman And Robin is a turning point for me and Grant.

RyleKayner

09-07-2009, 11:14 PM

The Great Darkness Saga was rubbish.

Waid/Kitson's 3boot Legion was the best.

Preacher is just not that good. Hitman was a million times better.

scribbleMind

09-07-2009, 11:32 PM

I bought all of Simon Dark. Such a waste of potential.

goRimbaud!

09-08-2009, 03:35 AM

Geoff Johns is very overrated, i think. I like his Blackest Night and Flash (not Rebirth) but i don't think he's a big brain or creator. He's just write fansuperherocomics.

Garth Ennis is not that good. He's got nothing new to say. And his violence is so cartoonish for me.

Hullababy

09-08-2009, 03:46 AM

I happen to hate Miller's Batman work too. I never quite understood the appeal of DKR either. IMO its got horrible artwork and writing. I thought I was alone on that. Good to see that some other fans also share my view.

Armadillo

09-08-2009, 04:18 AM

I read the first TPB of All-Star Supes and thought it got some quite good moments. but not as awesome as everyone seems to think.

Clockan

09-08-2009, 04:42 AM

i hated the art in the watchmen
and have only come to terms with the fact that there is nothing i can do about it

The ?

09-08-2009, 07:37 AM

I'm throwing in with the anti- DKR crowd too. I forget where I read it, but someone put it best when they said "Everytime I read it, I feel like I have to wash my brain when I'm done." I think my real problem with Miller's stuff is that it seems like his pessimistic, petty, stand off-ish, utterly alone Batman is everything the "real" Batman is afraid of becoming.

bongoes

09-08-2009, 07:55 AM

"Everytime I read it, I feel like I have to wash my brain when I'm done."

That's an awesome quote. Exactly how I feel.

Brack360

09-08-2009, 09:45 AM

I enjoyed Bruce Jones' Nightwing run.

DeTroyes

09-08-2009, 09:46 AM

* I generally find Superman boring, no matter who is writing him.
* Young Justice is overrated.
* I can't stand Kyle Rayner or Lobo.

dmhaight

09-08-2009, 10:06 AM

I loved the original Amethyst, Princess of Gemworld mini-series and 1st specials, but hated it when the character was forced into the mainstream DC post-Crisis universe. Yes, I know that during the original mini she met Superman in an issue of DC Comics Presents, but that was a complete one-off incident that kept her and that "world" separate and apart. Frankly, it should've remained that way, instead of being shoehorned into the mystical corner of the DC universe as a secondary character for Dr. Fate, and ultimately connected to the Legion of Super-Heroes through the character of Mordru (who was retconned into originating from Gemworld).

maniacmatt

09-08-2009, 10:10 AM

* I generally find Superman boring, no matter who is writing him.
* I can't stand ... Lobo.

Agreed!!!
And I'm liking Cry for Justice.

DonEMC

09-08-2009, 10:32 AM

-I love the writing of Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison, but was totally underwhelmed by Infinite Crisis and totally confused by Final Crisis. The first Crisis was an epic with a bodycount that kept rising all throughout in an era when characters could and did die. Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis were both published after a time when publishers realized that NO characters will ever die as long as a dollar can be squeezed out of them being licensed.

-I love JL Detroit.

-I actually enjoyed the Bart Allen Flash enough to buy the trade paperbacks and reread that whole storyline.

-At first, I enjoyed the Waid Legion. (But, after reading "Eat it Granpa!" in each issue, I look back on that and wonder "What the heck was I thinking?")

-I hated the changes John Byrne made to Superman's mythos, especially making Lex Luthor a businessman instead of the green and purple clad super villain he had been and would eventually become again.

-I loved Byrne's Lab Rats.

-I loved the Paul Kupperburg Doom Patrol.

-I loved Carmine Infantino's art on the later Flash stories much more than his earlier work on the title.

Ilash

09-08-2009, 11:02 AM

Well, it was published by DC so I'll include it here: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen - what's the deal? I liked the first enough but it is nowhere near the great masterpiece that everyone says it is. The second, on the other hand, had its moments but it was very, very subpar, as far as I'm concerned.

I like Kyle Rayner and Guy Gardner more than Hal Jordan.

I loved the first dozen or so issues of Waid's Legion.

I LOVED the first two issues of GA/BC.

LInda Danvers is Supergirl, as far as I'm concerned and I dislike most of the changes that have been done to the Superman mythos in recent years. I'm a Byrne-reboot guy all the way.

I liked Morrison's JLA quite a bit more than All Star Superman.

Zero Hunter

09-08-2009, 11:09 AM

Here is one that I know will ruffle feathers. I don't like Alan Moores "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorow" story. It is just another What If... story that somehow gained this cult following just because he was able to kill off Superman in it. I have just never been that impressed by it.

The Chief5425

09-08-2009, 12:16 PM

Throw me in the anti-Grant Morrison camp. Few stories from him have failed to inspire a "WTF did I just read?" response from me. I'm firmly convinced he's the comic writer equivalent of the emperor's new clothes: Many, many people say he's a genius but of those people many may just be agreeing with the crowd because they're afraid of seeming stupid if they cry out "I don't understand what the hell this story was about." (Exception: All Star Superman, I enjoyed that quite a bit).

As a recent member of this board I didn't realize this was an unpopular opinion before I brought it up here in an early post, but what the hell, I'll bring it up again. I really liked Brad Meltzer's work on "Justice League of America."

I liked the writing on "Dark Knight Returns" but I thought the art was terrible, much preferred Miller's tighter pencils on "Daredevil."

KYLeo71

09-08-2009, 12:25 PM

I tend to ignore anything that happened in the DCU between 1988 and 2008 unless a particular event from that time period is referenced. IMO, most of that 20 year period sounds like crap.

AdamYJ

09-08-2009, 12:47 PM

* Young Justice is overrated.
* I can't stand Kyle Rayner or Lobo.

Those aren't really big, bad secrets. Lots of people don't care for YJ, Kyle or Lobo. It's just that this specific board tends to have a fair population of YJ and Kyle fans. (As a YJ and Kyle fan, I've been in enough arguments/debates with non-fans to confirm this).

comicsmetal

09-08-2009, 01:04 PM

I am part of the Anti morission as well.Batman R.I.P was god awful I hated it .The thing that bugs me is the whole father being alive somewhere and maybe dr.hurt might be his father or whatever.Well I think killing characters in generally is stupid because you know they eventually come back.

I also thought Arkham Asylum was a bit of a joke as well ,the whole time in the comic Batman is runnning around and I felt it was very boring.The only thing that I liked was the story of Abada Arkham back story and that was it.

Also,the Anti-DKR ,I understand why some do not like it but I thought it was a very good book.The sequel will do not talk to me about it.

Plex

09-08-2009, 01:09 PM

I don't like the Wildstorm books and I can't understand why people like the Milestone characters. To me the best thing that happened is when these characters got buried. I just wish they would stay that way. Hardware and Icon are total rips imo.

I am a part of the camp that likes Morrison and Miller- not everything- but generally most of their work. The bulk of people here in this thread seem to be anti these guys.

And Lobo, WTF? Someone just rip this characters head off and leave him for dead permanently.Is there really any reason for this character? talk about 1 dimensional...

ducklord

09-08-2009, 01:57 PM

* I actually LIKE Lobo, God help me.
* I think G'Nort is a great character.
* I think there is INSANE potential in Extrano
* I liked 90% of Millennium.
* I think Harbinger and Pariah are cool characters
* I LIKED Hex
* I actually liked The Kingdom, and wish more had been done with Hypertime.
* I'm dangerously close to preferring Winnick's Batman to Morrison's Batman & Robin.

Hullababy

09-08-2009, 01:57 PM

Ok here's another one :

I liked Batman R.I.P. after reading it five times.

dodger8804

09-08-2009, 07:27 PM

I think Flamebird and Nightwing are my favorite characters.

Vidocq

09-08-2009, 07:45 PM

AdamYJ

09-08-2009, 08:10 PM

Here's one: I've never read either Dark Knight Returns or Watchmen and don't really want to. I know they're a big deal, but the thing is that I don't really care how dark, gritty or grown-up they showed comics could be. I kind of prefer my comics going in the other direction: bright, funny and juvenile.

Babylon23

09-08-2009, 08:30 PM

I was a big fan of Adam Beechan's run on Robin.

I'm really enjoying Cry for Justice

I think Kingdom Come is a mediocre story

Batman: The Long Halloween is an awful story saved only by Tim Sale's excellent artwork.

Batman: Hush is fanboy rubbish and Jim Lee's artwork on the story is terrible.

Hitman just isn't that funny.

Preacher is good, but not brilliant. It really loses it's way after the first 18 issues and doesn't recover until towards the end.

I liked Dark Knight Strikes Back.

The first 38 issues of the 5 Years Later Legion are some of my favourite comics.

I own every issue of All-Star Squadron

numberONE

09-08-2009, 08:31 PM

^I'll see that and raise you. I've never read any Alan Moore and only one issue of Frank Miller.

Gitaroo_Dude

09-08-2009, 08:52 PM

-I like Grant Morrison AND Geoff Johns. The impression I get from CBR is that Johns fans are too stupid to enjoy Morrison and that Morrison fans don't like to admit that they enjoy John's straight forward superhero work.

-I LOVE All-Star Batman and Robin. It's MUCH better than DKR and almost as good as Year One. And a brilliant portrayal of Hal Jordan to boot.

-Not a fan of EVS. His style of ultra-defined posed superheroes is too stale in an age that gives us Frank Quitely.

-The writing on Cry for Justice seems on par with the writing from the Starman. If we're being honest, Robinson has always been pretty awful with dialogue based on both.

-I want Gail to write a Junior ongoing in which she does her thing. That's a pretty dark secret I guess.

DonEMC

09-08-2009, 09:01 PM

I've never made a secret of it: I loved the futuristic Hex series, even the Giffen issues.
I also think Watchmen is waaaayy overrated, as is V For Vendetta and I've hated everything Peter David has written at DC.
I don't think Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol was nearly as well-written as the Arnold Drake version.

True Herald

09-08-2009, 09:03 PM

-I loved the Paul Kupperburg Doom Patrol.

LInda Danvers is Supergirl, as far as I'm concerned

* I actually LIKE Lobo, God help me.
* I think Harbinger and Pariah are cool characters
* I actually liked The Kingdom, and wish more had been done with Hypertime.

I knew I was forgetting some important stuff.
Add them to my list, with "more than the Morrison run" appended to the Kupperberg DP item. :smile:

dirpader

09-08-2009, 09:07 PM

i own the first three countdown to crisis tpbs and the countdown arena tpb

uhh god what was i thinking?

The ?

09-08-2009, 09:13 PM

I really like Green Arrow/Black Canary and feel a little twinge in my gut everytime someone talks bout them breaking up.

Zero Hunter

09-08-2009, 10:19 PM

The first 38 issues of the 5 Years Later Legion are some of my favourite comics.

Thats not a dirty secret its just really good taste. :biggrin:

gustopher

09-08-2009, 11:05 PM

I like "Dark Knight Strikes Again" better than "The Dark Night Returns".

Plex

09-09-2009, 07:32 AM

-I like Grant Morrison AND Geoff Johns. The impression I get from CBR is that Johns fans are too stupid to enjoy Morrison and that Morrison fans don't like to admit that they enjoy John's straight forward superhero work.

Ok, I'll admit it here. I really like Grant Morrison AND Geoff Johns. I like both their approaches to the genre.
I'm a big geek of the British Invasion.
I loved the Giffen years on Justice League. I actually like Keith Giffen as a writer in general.
I have yet to read the Morrison years on Justice League.
I really liked John Byrne's Superman reboot years ago.
I like Straczynski as a writer, but I get really frustrated that he can't keep on schedule.
I don't like comics like: Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, Love and Rockets, Omaha the Cat Dancer, real life books, and biographical/autobiographical books.
I realized a lot later in life- when ST:NG came out- that the person I met playing captain America was none other than Jonathan Frakes. (And thought that was pretty cool)

I've never read Ronin. I got all sorts of flak for that one from some dude in a spider-man outfit years ago. (We hired him for some promotion in a FLCS I worked in years ago.) After he copped an attitude with me I was like; "You are just some dude playing Spider-man and you have the arrogance to come down on me for not reading Ronin? I don't even like that genre. " Then he started going off about Indie comics and what was good and what was crap and if you weren't reading Cerebus - which I was- you didn't know anything about Indie comics- but thought he was wrong. He also started going off about Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, Love and Rockets, Omaha the Cat Dancer, and some others that were about the creator's real life- all of which I don't like and will NEVER read. He basically told me I was just a DC snob and a Marvel zombie even though I didn't read Marvel by then. (This was the early 90's when this took place.) The guy was a egomaniac.

The Chief5425

09-09-2009, 07:43 AM

Seconded (or, at this point, I guess "thirded") on the love for the 5 Year Later Legion. I really wish the Bierbaums had been given time and space to complete their vision for the Legion and I keep hoping against increasingly diminished odds they'll be allowed to pick it up again some day.

Ilash

09-09-2009, 08:31 AM

Oh yeah, a few other things.

I love that Lois and Clark are married.

I love that Wally and Lind are married. And I even like the kids (though, I'm tsill creeped out by Jai's powers).

All Star Batman and Robin rules!

Nevets F

09-09-2009, 08:42 AM

None of these are secrets I guess, since I have no shame in them and will tell anyone. But, things that the majority of fans like or dislike that I have a different opinion on:

I think Alex Ross is highly over rated.

I loved the Justice League franchise AFTER the humerous years (I liked them too).

I thought Ice Maiden was cool, and loved the Wonder Twins from Extreme Justice.

The 90's is my favorite period of comics.

I don't like Watchmen or Kingdom Come or The Dark Knight Returns.

Wilder Midnight

09-09-2009, 05:24 PM

At the risk of being labelled a heretic I think it might be fun to share a few of our dark secrets about DC comics

I for example, really dislike the artwork in "Kingdom Come", I enjoyed the story but the artwork is a turn off, it's overdrawn imo

ahh...now see...we're opposites. I loved the art in Kingdom Come and have spent many hours just going over the details and looking for the easter eggs and marveling at the throwaway characters and hommages.

its the story I have a problem with.

pretty much everybody dies.

Wilder Midnight

09-09-2009, 05:28 PM

*if i had my way the only Legion would be the five year gap legion.

*i can't stand neil gaimens work. i think its uninspired and pompous.

*i hate that barry is back. if i had my way there would be no duplicate heroes running around at all....no green lantern corp, no multiple hawkmen/women, atoms and green arrows etc...

Babylon23

09-09-2009, 05:42 PM

Thats not a dirty secret its just really good taste. :biggrin:

Seconded (or, at this point, I guess "thirded") on the love for the 5 Year Later Legion. I really wish the Bierbaums had been given time and space to complete their vision for the Legion and I keep hoping against increasingly diminished odds they'll be allowed to pick it up again some day.

*if i had my way the only Legion would be the five year gap legion.

Good to see some 5YL love here at CBR.

DeTroyes

09-09-2009, 08:41 PM

Here's another one for me:

Judd WInick is the only writer who has ever succeeded in making Green Arrow interesting to me.

Infinity Man

09-09-2009, 09:12 PM

This isn't a secret, hell I would scream it from a mountain top: I LOVED FINAL CRISIS!

This one is more of a secret: In spite of all the smack I talk about Marvel, I do understand why the typically outsell DC, and most of what I am interested in reading right now if from Marvel.

Jorriss

09-09-2009, 10:39 PM

I highly dislike Killing Joke.

Tesseract

09-09-2009, 11:15 PM

I highly dislike Killing Joke.

Wow, that is incredibly eerie; I was just getting on to add my own reply, with the primary "secret" being that "The Killing Joke" is in the top 5 of worst graphic novels (if you can even call it that) I've ever read.

Arkham Asylum is barely mediocre.

Stan Lee couldn't write his way out of a paper bag. Even if that paper bag were made out of an unknown material that is highly susceptible to exclamation marks. Fantastic mind, but one of the worst writers I have ever had the misfortune of having to read in order to get a fix of the early days of my favorite Marvel characters. Oh, and he's an unadulterated whore.

Ditto for Alan Moore.

I hate Bucky as Captain America and Grayson as Batman.

Punisher is significantly less f'ed in the head than the self-righteous, "life is holy, even though the villains we keep alive have murdered at least in the thousands," crap of Spider-Man and others.

Crisis on Infinite Earths sucked.

John Romita Jr. is a great artist, but he apparently will never be able to draw a character to look older than the age of 13.

Absolution is better than Irredeemable.

Tony Stark is a serious douche-bag and awful person. I sincerely believe those are the virtues Joe Quesada models his life after.

Dark Reign has single-handedly reduced my Marvel Comics consumption by 66-75%.

The Crime Dentist

09-10-2009, 03:05 AM

Booster, Ted, and Guy Gardner r all about as one dimensional as u can get. In fact, it is true..the best thing Ted did was die.

You are a horrible person with bad opinions. :mad:

aut0matic

09-10-2009, 03:42 AM

Wow, that is incredibly eerie; I was just getting on to add my own reply, with the primary "secret" being that "The Killing Joke" is in the top 5 of worst graphic novels (if you can even call it that) I've ever read.

Arkham Asylum is barely mediocre.

i didn't really like the killing joke either, especially with how hyped up it was. arkham asylum was an even worse read for me, i disliked it even more on my second read-through.

as imaginitive as stan lee's mind is, i agree. i recently read his "fantastic four: the end" and the dialogue, story, everything honestly could have been interchangeable with anything in the first tpb of ff essentials. all this time and the man still writes comics as if 9 year olds are the primary readers.

bucky rocks, not a huge fan of steve rogers to be honest. sorry, we had a lot in common up until that point :tongue:

Kasper Cole

09-10-2009, 04:47 AM

I'm a big fan of Grant Morrison but some of his work is ridiculously overrated.

Hal Jordan is my least Favorite Green Lantern.

I actually like a good deal of Judd Winnicks work (especially his work on Green Arrow).

Connor Hawke is more interesting than Roy Harper.

Dard

09-10-2009, 05:06 AM

I was a big fan of Judd Winick's Outsiders.

Contrary to common opinion, I do not think that Alex Ross is overrated, even on interior art.

I do think that Geoff Johns is not a great writer. I did not like Sinestro Corps War. (Johns is a great scenarist, however)

I think that Hal Jordan as evil Parallax was not a bad idea, even though the good-bad transition was rushed and illogical. I wish Parallax would have been kept around longer and not retconned. And that even though I loved Hal Jordan and can't stand Rayner.

52 did nothing for me.

The Chief5425

09-10-2009, 08:23 AM

Freakzeek

09-10-2009, 09:04 AM

4thHorseman

09-10-2009, 09:59 AM

Here's one sure to get me pilloried: I liked "Identity Crisis." And I thought the rape scene was powerful and poignant and actually made sense (in a fictional world full of super powered villains who are thieves, torturers and murderers it's not unreasonable to assume at least one might be a rapist as well). I think people who hate on that scene take away the wrong message. Sue Dibney had something terrible happen to her, yes. She then recovered from it with grace and dignity, Ralph supporting her all the way. That's a very positive, touching statement.

*shrugs* I liked Identity Crisis too. Many powerful scenes in that story, especially issue...6(?) with Robin/Batman racing to Tim's house.

- I Dislike Batman: Year One
- I Like Winnik's Batman
- I think Gail Simone is overrated as a writer for the most part
- Don't like George Perez on everything
- Don't care about seeing Aquaman back

Hullababy

09-10-2009, 10:12 AM

Freakzeek

09-10-2009, 10:32 AM

Although I don't agree with any of what you said, that's a whole different matter for another whole different topic but burn in Hell ???

I can understand if you don't enjoy his work that's fine but to wish for someone to burn in hell just because he is writing stories you don't happen to like is going a little overboard IMO.
it was a quip, not serious i thought this was about letting out our Dc secret's out, you don't see me commenting on all the morrison, moore or miller hate

besides are we looking at this from a theological standpoint, what if i don't believe in hell,? what if Johns is a buddhist? it's a sarcastic little comment used to maybe over the top express my darkest comic book secret

Why is it even on a thread like this, i get chewed out by some fan for saying something about there beloved writer? :?

tejpis

09-10-2009, 11:04 AM

Wait, what.. is it a dark secret to like Identity Crisis? It really got me into DC.

Ilash

09-10-2009, 11:14 AM

Wait, what.. is it a dark secret to like Identity Crisis? It really got me into DC.

Yes. Yes, it is.

tejpis

09-10-2009, 11:16 AM

Yes. Yes, it is.

Oh no, I wonder how many arguments I've lost just by bringing that opinion up :redface: :biggrin:

Hullababy

09-10-2009, 11:51 AM

it was a quip, not serious i thought this was about letting out our Dc secret's out, you don't see me commenting on all the morrison, moore or miller hate

besides are we looking at this from a theological standpoint, what if i don't believe in hell,? what if Johns is a buddhist? it's a sarcastic little comment used to maybe over the top express my darkest comic book secret

Why is it even on a thread like this, i get chewed out by some fan for saying something about there beloved writer? :?

I am not chewing you out. I already said its fine if you don't like his work. I just find comments like "he should burn in hell" rather uncalled for.

JumpingJupiter

09-10-2009, 12:45 PM

I don't like Batman.

Superbeast

09-10-2009, 01:04 PM

I don't really like Geoff Johns' stories. He writes really elaborate and meticulously planned out "epics" about superheroes being "badass" amd he puts a lot of work into his comics. It's just sad that he's not actually a very good writer.

I think the idea of multicoloured lantern corps is more than a little hackneyed.
Especially the Star Saphires. He should burn in Hell for crimes against humanity for that.

Go out side and get a grip already. It's not like Geoff Johns is your new step-dad having noisy sex with your mom next door, why so much hate? Really, if you don't like his work, don't read it. are you really going to wish enternal damnation on someone because you are choose enough to buy and read things you don't even like? Just do what big business types does, accept your masochistic tendencies and hire a woman to walk on your back in stack heels already.

Oh yeah, I also liked Identity Crisis. Boomerang's son seemed a little out of place in it but otherwise it hit all the right notes for me and actually explained a lot of silly Silver Age crap in a sensible way. Deathstroke completely owning the JLA was way out there but putting some importance back on secret identities and personal relationships and loved ones being affected by superheroics I felt was a move in the right direction.

I liked Hal Jordan as Parallax more than I like him as a GL. I really disliked him as The Spectre.

I like Zauriel more than Hawkman as a character.

I like Morrison's writing as long as he doesn't try fit all his big ideas into a single story arc. Some of his best work has been when he's been forced to think inside of the box rather than outside of it as he prefers to, in my opinion.

Freakzeek

09-10-2009, 01:45 PM

Go out side and get a grip already. It's not like Geoff Johns is your new step-dad having noisy sex with your mom next door, why so much hate? Really, if you don't like his work, don't read it. are you really going to wish enternal damnation on someone because you are choose enough to buy and read things you don't even like? Just do what big business types does, accept your masochistic tendencies and hire a woman to walk on your back in stack heels already.

Oh yeah, I also liked Identity Crisis. Boomerang's son seemed a little out of place in it but otherwise it hit all the right notes for me and actually explained a lot of silly Silver Age crap in a sensible way. Deathstroke completely owning the JLA was way out there but putting some importance back on secret identities and personal relationships and loved ones being affected by superheroics I felt was a move in the right direction.

I liked Hal Jordan as Parallax more than I like him as a GL. I really disliked him as The Spectre.

I like Zauriel more than Hawkman as a character.

I like Morrison's writing as long as he doesn't try fit all his big ideas into a single story arc. Some of his best work has been when he's been forced to think inside of the box rather than outside of it as he prefers to, in my opinion.

masochistic tendencies ??? where does that even come into the conversation, I never said I hated Geoff Johns Hence "He writes really elaborate and meticulously planned out "epics" about superheroes being "badass" and he puts a lot of work into his comics", i just don't like his writing. You don't see me telling people not read watchmen or Dark knight returns, so why should you tell me i shouldn't read his writing? I like The Green Lantern Mythos, hence the reason i even read his books.
Can somebody please tell me what's the difference between the people who said they don't like the works of Morrison, Moore & millar and me? was it the burn in hell comment? IT WAS A JOKE, I thought the whole point of this thread was to let lose our little comic secrets. I don't like his star sapphires, because i think their sexist, hence" he should burn in hell for that one" et.c
I really think the love corps are immensely stupid because of the costume and the fact that it’s all women. Men can be broken by love too, y’know? I don’t know if we could consider it really sexist but it at least works a lot on clichés.

I. don't. like. Geoff.johns. writing. there now the John's fanboys can chew me out

bongoes

09-10-2009, 02:18 PM

I like "Dark Knight Strikes Again" better than "The Dark Night Returns".

Wow, that is a dark secret. I think you win.

And I'm going to have to join the Identity Crisis liking. It wasn't fantastic but it was no where near as bad as everyone says it was.

The Chief5425

09-10-2009, 02:41 PM

While I won't wish anybody to hell over it (though I do understand that the guy was engaging in hyperbole and making a joke), I don't care much for the Star Sapphire treatment either. I don't like multiple Sapphires, I don't like them using a ring instead of a tiara and I don't like them being (more or less) on the side of the angels.

In fact, as a rule I just don't like it when villains go good at all. They had to walk back Deathstroke over it, which is awkward. I'm not enjoying "Ink" for this reason (and while Green Lantern has a pretty good sized rogue's gallery I think it particularly sucks that he's now lost two major villains because they switched sides). About the only time I've ever thought it was done well was when Sandman (the Spidey villain, not the member of The Endless) did it over at Marvel. That issue with him and Ben Grimm sitting and having a beer was classic. And again, they eventually backtracked it. A waste of good character development.

Shush

09-10-2009, 03:10 PM

-I really couldnt care less about Hal Jordan and Barry.
-I loved Judd Winnicks run on batman
-Dark Batman/Batgod/Batdick is awesome
-I didn't enjoy 52
-Kon should have stayed dead, his return in Legion was stupid and corny.
- The road to infinite crisis/IC tie ins/ IC itself is/are the greatest comics crossover event ever written.
- Bringing back the multiverse was a bad idea. All the great elsewhere stories characters became punching bags. Why DC cant have a more Marvel approach to alternate universes is beyond me.

Grenouille

09-10-2009, 03:44 PM

-I liked Identity Crisis. It actually made me a DC fan.

-I loathe most things written by Grant Morrison.

-I like most things written by Judd Winick.

-I really loved the Deadman series from a few years back.

dodger8804

09-10-2009, 03:45 PM

I read scans of World of New Krypton and Supergirl.
Because they're crucial to the storylines of Action and Superman, I only have a certain amount of money a month to spend, and I want to spend it on books I really enjoy.

And I don't really enjoy those books, I only need the storylines for the Codename:Patriot and such.

Stupid triangle numbering...

(PLEASE DON'T BAN ME FOR MY SINS!)

Ilash

09-10-2009, 04:24 PM

Incidentally, I though Identity Crisis was a well told story it's just that I really, really hated some of the plot strands and how they related to some of DC's best characters.

The whole Sue Dibny rape thing was just such an abominable direction to take the character that all the good writing in the world can't save the rest of the story. Nor, for that matter, could the slightly less awful brainwashing schtick.

Absent-minded Prof

09-10-2009, 05:00 PM

For what it's worth - and I figure I'm a minority in this - I'm finding Wednesday Comics underwhelming. I thought it was a great idea and was really looking forward to it, but there are only about half of the stories going on there that I care about at all at this point. Best and worst? - Best = Metal Men (yes - DiDio! - but this seems to me, along with Kamandi, the best use of the WC format); Worst = toss-up between Adam Strange (I just can't get past my distaste for Pope's art) and Wonder Woman (a total mess).

Absent-minded Prof

09-10-2009, 05:09 PM

Jarath

09-10-2009, 05:14 PM

- I liked Crisis of the Identity, Infinite and Final varieties.

- Enjoyed Hush (is it still bad to enjoy anything by Loeb?) and the first two Superman and Batman

- I've only read half of Watchmen because the dialogue was so dull and drawn out.

- I like alot of Winnick stuff (apart from GA and BC, that made me sad. Simone's Dinah is so good.)

- I loved the ending to Legion of 3 Worlds.

Psavell2

09-10-2009, 05:16 PM

About the only time I've ever thought it was done well was when Sandman (the Spidey villain, not the member of The Endless) did it over at Marvel. That issue with him and Ben Grimm sitting and having a beer was classic. And again, they eventually backtracked it. A waste of good character development.

I know, wasn't that such a crock? He was so much more interesting as a hero than he ever was as a villain, and just the way that they turned him back was the laziest most unimaginative retcon ever.

Jarath

09-10-2009, 05:18 PM

Here's one sure to get me pilloried: I liked "Identity Crisis." And I thought the rape scene was powerful and poignant and actually made sense (in a fictional world full of super powered villains who are thieves, torturers and murderers it's not unreasonable to assume at least one might be a rapist as well). I think people who hate on that scene take away the wrong message. Sue Dibney had something terrible happen to her, yes. She then recovered from it with grace and dignity, Ralph supporting her all the way. That's a very positive, touching statement.

I agree whole heartedly. I never understood why people got so annoyed that a character got made into a rapist. Murder? Sure that's ok. Theft? Cool by me. Rape? NO! ARE YOU SICK!? GET OUT!

They didn't make her into "the victim" which many writers would have done.

Ilash

09-10-2009, 05:39 PM

I agree whole heartedly. I never understood why people got so annoyed that a character got made into a rapist. Murder? Sure that's ok. Theft? Cool by me. Rape? NO! ARE YOU SICK!? GET OUT!

They didn't make her into "the victim" which many writers would have done.

My problem isn't that he's a rapist but that it didn't fit the character of Sue Dibny at all, according TO EVERY SINGLE APPEARANCE THAT SHE'S EVER HAD. They shoe-horned this huge life-changing moment that would have altered her character at least for the time after it happened. Also, sorry but if you want to write stories about brutal rape scenes how's about not doing it to a character that has been portrayed consistently in the past as the one half of the happiest and most fun superhero couple in DC's stable of characters. It's called character consistency (with a whole dollop of tonal suitability)!

It's just that grim and gritty crap all over again, only this time it's been done, not to Murderdeathlockkillingmachinebiggunnedbloke, but Sue Frickin' Dibny. It's just rubbish.

Jarath

09-10-2009, 05:51 PM

My problem isn't that he's a rapist but that it didn't fit the character of Sue Dibny at all, according TO EVERY SINGLE APPEARANCE THAT SHE'S EVER HAD. They shoe-horned this huge life-changing moment that would have altered her character at least for the time after it happened. Also, sorry but if you want to write stories about brutal rape scenes how's about not doing it to a character that has been portrayed consistently in the past as the one half of the happiest and most fun superhero couple in DC's stable of characters. It's called character consistency (with a whole dollop of tonal suitability)!

It's just that grim and gritty crap all over again, only this time it's been done, not to Murderdeathlockkillingmachinebiggunnedbloke, but Sue Frickin' Dibny. It's just rubbish.

Why does it not fit? Not everyone falls apart when something terrible happens to them. Personally I see it as a tribute to how happy and strong Sue and Ralph were as a couple, and her own strength of character. They got through it and remained happy together.

Ilash

09-10-2009, 06:06 PM

Why does it not fit? Not everyone falls apart when something terrible happens to them. Personally I see it as a tribute to how happy and strong Sue and Ralph were as a couple, and her own strength of character. They got through it and remained happy together.

Or it's the greatest case of denial in the history of the world.

The Chief5425

09-10-2009, 06:12 PM

froinlaven

09-10-2009, 06:17 PM

I don't like Batman.

Bruce Wayne Batman, or Dick Grayson Batman

....Or just Batman in general.

Ilash

09-10-2009, 06:29 PM

Without getting too personal here, I found the fact that she recovered so well inspiring. Had quite a tragedy in my life (my wife's suicide) in 2004, the exact same year. I've pretty much determined I'm not going to let her selfishness define the rest of my time on this planet, and I've made an effort to take my pleasures and joys where I can get them ever since.

I liked the idea of Sue doing the same.

My problem is that it was a retcon that simply didn't fit in at all with her many appearances over the years, nor the tone of those stories.

Of course, I'm with you on all the actual real world stuff. You're right entirely. But looking at it in terms of storytelling, I still think it was a massive mistake.

EZMOHR

09-10-2009, 07:53 PM

You are a horrible person with bad opinions. :mad:

That maybe true...but Ted, Booster, and especially Guy...still suck monkey balls.

EZMOHR

09-10-2009, 07:55 PM

Wait, what.. is it a dark secret to like Identity Crisis? It really got me into DC.

No, it is what got me to DC also. Now, I like DC way more than Marvel.

True Herald

09-10-2009, 09:06 PM

My problem isn't that he's a rapist but that it didn't fit the character of Sue Dibny at all, according TO EVERY SINGLE APPEARANCE THAT SHE'S EVER HAD. They shoe-horned this huge life-changing moment that would have altered her character at least for the time after it happened. Also, sorry but if you want to write stories about brutal rape scenes how's about not doing it to a character that has been portrayed consistently in the past as the one half of the happiest and most fun superhero couple in DC's stable of characters. It's called character consistency (with a whole dollop of tonal suitability)!

It's just that grim and gritty crap all over again, only this time it's been done, not to Murderdeathlockkillingmachinebiggunnedbloke, but Sue Frickin' Dibny. It's just rubbish.

Agreed. There's no way she and Ralph would have been able to work with the female Dr. Light in JLE/JLI without trouble. This retcon was one of the worst, most inconsiderate moves ever.

DonEMC

09-10-2009, 09:16 PM

-I really like Identity Crisis (and Brad Meltzer told me that DC asked him to include things like Firestorm's death, so I'd say the new Captain Boomerang was shoehorned into the series the same way) and I thought the rape by Dr. Light was something totally in character for a villain like him. I do wish it hadn't happened to Sue Dibny (along with her untimely death), because I loved her as a character and The Elongated Man was one of the best DC heroes ever.

-I thought DC's first attempt at licensing the Archie heroes was DC doing Spidey Super Stories-style comics. Lame, lame, lame. Let's see how the next attempt will go...

-I like the Ronnie Raymond Firestorm and hate the Jason Rusch Firestorm.

-I like the new Blue Beetle better than the old Blue Beetle. Other than the costume, I thought the Ted Kord Blue Beetle deserved to be shot in the head.

-I think Mike Baron's Flash stories were boring and so were William Messner Loeb's. Wally West Flash didn't get interesting until Mark Waid took over...

-Then, Mark Waid ruined the Flash on his return to the title by giving him kids and making Linda a scientist after all those years as a journalist.

-I think Kurt Busiek is way overrated as a writer and his Astro City wasn't all that good OR ORIGINAL.

-The current Wonder Woman is boring no matter what writer DC brings in. Bring back Steve Trevor as her true love and the Diana Prince-as-a-secretary persona and I'll read WW again. And Jose Delbo has to draw it.
-

Zembo

09-10-2009, 09:17 PM

1)Every time, and I mean EVERY TIME I see the name "Teen Titans" the theme song for their show starts running in my head.

2) I think Booster should have gotten at least one shot in on Batman after Ted died.

3) Hal's kind of a jerk.

KYLeo71

09-10-2009, 09:39 PM

I love Wonder Woman. Her fans? Enh -- not so much.

I'm enjoying Winnick's Batman a lot more than Morrison's Batman & Robin.

I think Frank Quitely's art is ghastly (and not in a good way).

jtd

09-10-2009, 09:41 PM

Hated Checkmate. Seriously thought it was the antithesis of what a comic should be.

Thought "Justice" was a horrible comic series.

Think Kirby's writing & storytelling was poor (art aside)

SJNeal

09-10-2009, 10:13 PM

I'm enjoying Winnick's Batman a lot more than Morrison's Batman & Robin.

Thank god I'm not the only one!

Joker2503

09-10-2009, 11:29 PM

- Judd Winnick catches WAAAYYY more crap than he deserves. He isn't the best writer working right now, but he isn't anywhere near as bad as a lot of people claim he is. I'm enjoying the hell out of his Batman right now, and I thought his run on 'Green Arrow' was great.

- I liked 'Final Crisis' a lot. The story kind of fell off the rails with the inclusion of 'Superman Beyond' and the introduction of Mandrak, but everything up to issue 5, and most of 6, was awesome. Darkseid was written completely terrifying. I have literally had nightmares about his "When I speak, I speak with three billions mouths" speech.

- I like it when a comic forces me to turn to Wikipedia. Going back to 'Final Crisis', I had fun reading an issue, asking "Who the hell is that?" a few times, spending some time online education myself, then re-reading the issue with new understanding. Geoff Johns is the master of this. You can follow his stories with nothing more than what he gives you in the book, but with a little bit of research, you can get so much more out of his work.

- I'm not a Dick Grayson fan. Not just Dick-as-Batman, but the entire character of Dick Grayson in general. I think Tim is a much better Robin, and a more interesting character. I would not have minded in the least if Dan Didio got his way and Dick had died in 'Infinite Crisis'.

dupersuper

09-11-2009, 03:40 AM

I've aired this secret in another thread, but oh well.

I really like the Dan Vado run on Justice League America, as well as all of Gerard Jones Justice League Europe/International/America era...

I like Gerard Jones stuff a lot, actually...GL, GL:Mosaic, El Diablo, JL, Elongated Man...

dupersuper

09-11-2009, 03:50 AM

-I love the writing of Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison, but was totally underwhelmed by Infinite Crisis and totally confused by Final Crisis.

I don't think you're alone in any way here...

Batman Fan 31593

09-11-2009, 05:44 AM

I really enjoyed Scott Beatty's run on Batman: Gotham Knights.

I like Justice League: Cry for Justice.

Karl O'Neill

09-11-2009, 05:54 AM

Not much to say:

I really liked adam beechen's ROBIN run. It was fresh and fun and the art was great.

Identity crisis got me into comics properly. It was a tight, emotional roller coster of a story. I still rate it pretty high.

The Chief5425

09-11-2009, 07:33 AM

Hated Checkmate. Seriously thought it was the antithesis of what a comic should be.

Thought "Justice" was a horrible comic series.

Think Kirby's writing & storytelling was poor (art aside)

With you on Checkmate. Don't like SHIELD over at Marvel (or SWORD or whatever they're calling it these days). Come to think of it, I don't like James Bond movies either. Huhn. I've just realized I don't like the Espionage and Intrigue corner of the geekosphere.

As for Kirby? Heavens yes, you're right. The man had a magnificent imagination but his ear for dialogue, particularly, was absolutely made of tin...

robbieglenn

09-11-2009, 09:09 AM

Ohhhhh confession time

-Superman bores me, always has
-I didnt think Batman R.I.P was as brilliant as people made out.
-(gets into anti-fanboy nuclear shelter) I thought Watchmen was okay, not great. maybe because Ive only just read it in the last year and with all the hype it just didnt live up to it all.
-Alan Moore's Top Ten stuff is his best work, in my opinion

Now im off to hide

SJNeal

09-11-2009, 09:34 AM

I like Gerard Jones stuff a lot, actually...GL, GL:Mosaic, El Diablo, JL, Elongated Man...

I think that makes 3 of us now! :eek: :smile:

Superbeast

09-11-2009, 09:51 AM

Agreed. There's no way she and Ralph would have been able to work with the female Dr. Light in JLE/JLI without trouble. This retcon was one of the worst, most inconsiderate moves ever.

Why? Completely different person and completely different sex to boot. Why would the Dibnys hold anything against the female Dr Light? She took the name, that's all, it's not like all Dr Lights have to rape a Dibny as part of some ritual to take the title.

As much as people go "Oh, the Dibnys were ruined!", I didn't give two craps about either of them and considered Elongated Man to be a bad fill in for Plastic Man with a crappy origin involving a soft drink. I gave more of a crap about Dinah and Ollie. Identity Crisis had superheroes dealing with a real situation that couldn't simply be solved by throwing people through walls or stopping a bomb, it had meaningful consequences that couldn't be avoided or solved with a few of Zatanna's words and examined the nature of leading double lives without fear of real consequence and how heroes can get in over their heads, meaning they have to act even further above the law than they usually do. They turned a character I didn't care about into one I wanted to get revenge and then someone I just felt incredibly sorrow for in the space of two issues. I also agree that the fact Sue got raped but their marriage endured and actually ended up stronger is the message I got from it all. I wasn't cursing the retcon by any means because the bottom line is, these villains are meant to be scumbags who act on depraved, selfish impulses and I don't find the idea completely incomprehensible given the situation.

Jarath

09-11-2009, 09:56 AM

-(gets into anti-fanboy nuclear shelter) I thought Watchmen was okay, not great. maybe because Ive only just read it in the last year and with all the hype it just didnt live up to it all.

Ditto. I have friends who rave about it but I really couldn't get into it at all.

Lou25

09-11-2009, 10:15 AM

Not a huge DC person, so I'm not up on what characters/events pre-Identity Crisis are held in high esteem or looked down on. But,

- The occasional Grant Morrison work is enjoyable, but most get to a point (for me) where it's just him wanking over how awesome his ideas are, like, say, FC. Question for the poster a few spaces above me: Are there really people who hold Batman RIP up as a brilliant story? I'm not being jerky, I'm really asking. I read most of it in-store and was really underwhelmed.

- Frank Quietly and J.G. Jones are crazy overrated.

- I find Kyle Rayner to be annoying, whiny, and an ineffective replacement for Hal or John. Atrocitus should eat him.

- Wonder Woman being one of the "big three" of DC makes me laugh.

- I liked Hush more than just about any of the other Batman work I've read in the last decade or so.

- Despite not knowing much about what happened leading up to/into it, I enjoyed Zero Hour for the blatant continuity reboot effort it was.

- The Legion seems more ridiculous every time they try to restart or fix it.

Jarath

09-11-2009, 10:35 AM

I really liked Batman RIP although I don't get how the ending of that fitted with Final Crisis, maybe I just missed something.

I'm not a huge Jones fan but he drew an amazing Black Canary in Final Crisis so he has my respect.

Global Honored

09-11-2009, 10:39 AM

-I have never liked Super Man. Even as a kid, I always thought he was lame-o. Always cheered for the other guy even if it was Luthor, and especially when it was Brainiac.
-Tried to like The Legion too, but it never took.
-I would still wear Batman Underoos (or Green Lantern variety) if they made them.
-When I did wear BATeroos,they were obviously on the outside of my pajama bottoms, like Bats would wear 'em.

dupersuper

09-11-2009, 12:31 PM

Why? Completely different person and completely different sex to boot. Why would the Dibnys hold anything against the female Dr Light? She took the name, that's all, it's not like all Dr Lights have to rape a Dibny as part of some ritual to take the title.

True, it would be nice to see a flashback somewhere in which Sue mentions feeling a little odd being on the team with some one named Dr. Light though. For most of her JLI run Kimmie even had a different costume though, so I don't see it being that traumatic.

dupersuper

09-11-2009, 12:32 PM

- Despite not knowing much about what happened leading up to/into it, I enjoyed Zero Hour for the blatant continuity reboot effort it was.

I liked Zero Hour, but mostly for the awesome Jurgens/Ordway art (I also give props to whoever coloured it).

EZMOHR

09-11-2009, 12:41 PM

Lou25

09-11-2009, 01:07 PM

The insane similarity between his characters faces is one of my problems, along with everyone looking vaguely asian and the fact that each body he draws looks like the person weighs either 5 pounds, 150, or 500.

True Herald

09-11-2009, 04:34 PM

Why? Completely different person and completely different sex to boot. Why would the Dibnys hold anything against the female Dr Light? She took the name, that's all, it's not like all Dr Lights have to rape a Dibny as part of some ritual to take the title.

But the name would be enough to trigger concern.

As much as people go "Oh, the Dibnys were ruined!", I didn't give two craps about either of them and considered Elongated Man to be a bad fill in for Plastic Man with a crappy origin involving a soft drink.

And that right there tells me everything I needed to know about your opinion of the characters. You didn't care at all about them, anyway, so of course you had nothing to lose when they were dragged through the crapper.

Vidocq

09-11-2009, 05:45 PM

Here's one sure to get me pilloried: I liked "Identity Crisis." And I thought the rape scene was powerful and poignant and actually made sense (in a fictional world full of super powered villains who are thieves, torturers and murderers it's not unreasonable to assume at least one might be a rapist as well). I think people who hate on that scene take away the wrong message. Sue Dibney had something terrible happen to her, yes. She then recovered from it with grace and dignity, Ralph supporting her all the way. That's a very positive, touching statement.

I Agree, The Rape plotdevice is always badly written in comics but in IC it was done well. Much better than What Marvel did with Hawkeye and Mockingbird. Remember how big of an a$$hole Hawkeye was?

Then again I had nothing but ambivalence for Sue and Ralph Dibney before IC.

jgiannantoni05

09-11-2009, 07:14 PM

My "dark secrets":

-I don't really care for WW
-I don't like No Man's Land much
-I hate All Star Batman, despite many loving it (and DK2, but love DKR and Year One)
-I absolutely hate Harley Quinn
-I like that John Byrne had Lex become a ruthless businessman (Lex needed that change at that time)
-I hate Morrison's Damian
-I didn't like Infinite Crisis that much
-I am growing to love Final Crisis
-I often don't like Scott McDaniel's art
-I think "women in refrigerators" is tossed around too much
-I hate that Jason Todd was brought back to life (he should a Black Lantern right now)
-I don't like Ruck's Batwoman

-I disagree with so many people in this thread about hating/disliking work by Johns, Moore, Morrison, and Miller
-I think many/most people hate on Johns, Moore, Morrison and Miller because these writers are on the top of the mountain and they think it's cool and rebellious to hate the great writers, or they don't fully understand their work (I'm more understanding with people's criticisms of Morrison I suppose)

SmoManCometh

09-11-2009, 07:22 PM

sorry....double posted!!!!!!!!

SmoManCometh

09-11-2009, 07:23 PM

-I liked McKeever's Teen Titans run and line-up and cannot for the life of me understand any complaints people had. I felt like I was living on another planet and I can usually see someone's point even if I don't agree entirely. (and yes I did think the deathtrap crossover was awful!)

-I think Dan Didio was right when he said they needed to restore the characters to their most iconic state and (even though I love them with all my heart and never want them to go) that the biggest mistake DC has ever made is allowing Kyle and Wally to be the Flash and Green Lantern for so long.

-I think Morrison's Doom Patrol is the most overrated thing ever and tries WAY to hard to be weird.

-I think Batman R.I.P. is just as disappointing (not as bad though!) as countdown.

-I like Morrison even though it may appear otherwise!

-I don't get Mon-El or the over-the-top love for the new Blue Beetle (although i do like him "ok")

-I think Y: The Last Man is mediocre at best and that the dialogue is borderline awful.

-I think Ravager is the most under-appreciated character in DC.

-I like Dan Jurgens as a writer.

-Superboy has the worst costume in comics and I cannot stand it.

-I think Cassie Sandsmark has always been written in character and I really think people cannot handle a superhero who acts like a real insecure person without it being overtly accented as something for the "hero" to deal with.

-although a good writer...I think Alan Moore is a pretentious douche

-this is my favorite thread ever

SmoManCometh

09-11-2009, 07:28 PM

My "dark secrets":

-I hate that Jason Todd was brought back to life (he should a Black Lantern right now)

FORGOT ABOUT THIS!!! Jason Todd's resurrection was the most pointless thing to ever happen comics

AdamYJ

09-11-2009, 07:38 PM

-I like that John Byrne had Lex become a ruthless businessman (Lex needed that change at that time)

As I understand it, it was more of a Wolfman idea than a Byrne one.

The Beast Of Yucca Flats

09-11-2009, 08:40 PM

My-I think "women in refrigerators" is tossed around too much

I'd like to add something to this thought:

-[ahem] Many readers seem to miss the point of what "WiR" actually is/means.

Also:

-Though it's a tad old (11 years), the Superman offices seriously need to read Warren Ellis's "Superman's Dying Romance" essay sometime.

-Lots of painstaking detail alone won't give artwork any merit.

-(not talking to any one person in particular) From the artisans, to the journeymen, to even the hacks, you're "owed" precisely jack from creators.

-Yeah, I get Superman: Doomsday wasn't really a high watermark for the character or it's medium or anything, but let's be honest here: was "The Death Of Superman," really, either?

-The concept of a 'shared universe' is a tad overvalued by creators & fandom.

-Creatively, the 90's were just fine if you were looking beyond the superguys for the most part.

-Making Harley Quinn a strong, independent woman is missing the point.

-Darwyn Cooke is pretty much right about Superman vs. Batman: give it a f**king rest, already.

-The Scarecrow's mostly a total melvin outside The New Batman Adventures' "Never Fear" episode.

-Darkseid's mostly a total melvin (or a bore) outside S:TAS/JL/JLU.

-The Siegels deserve some money, and they're gonna get some. Accept it.

-Superboy Prime is asinine.

-Mask Of The Phantasm still beats Nolan & Bale.

-Given a lot of what he's done outside of them, the idea of Alan Moore going back to the Big Two to write their superheroes again-- at any point in the future-- is really pretty inane.

jgiannantoni05

09-11-2009, 08:59 PM

-[ahem] Many readers seem to miss the point of what "WiR" actually is/means.
How so? I think most fans know what it means. I just think too many instances are labeled a WiR moment, when they aren't.

Gitaroo_Dude

09-11-2009, 09:09 PM

I'd like to add something to this thought:

-[ahem] Many readers seem to miss the point of what "WiR" actually is/means.

Also:

-Though it's a tad old (11 years), the Superman offices seriously need to read Warren Ellis's "Superman's Dying Romance" essay sometime.

-Lots of painstaking detail alone won't give artwork any merit.

-(not talking to any one person in particular) From the artisans, to the journeymen, to even the hacks, you're "owed" precisely jack from creators.

-Yeah, I get Superman: Doomsday wasn't really a high watermark for the character or it's medium or anything, but let's be honest here: was "The Death Of Superman," really, either?

-The concept of a 'shared universe' is a tad overvalued by creators & fandom.

-Creatively, the 90's were just fine if you were looking beyond the superguys for the most part.

-Making Harley Quinn a strong, independent woman is missing the point.

-Darwyn Cooke is pretty much right about Superman vs. Batman: give it a f**king rest, already.

-The Scarecrow's mostly a total melvin outside The New Batman Adventures' "Never Fear" episode.

-Darkseid's mostly a total melvin (or a bore) outside S:TAS/JL/JLU.

-The Siegels deserve some money, and they're gonna get some. Accept it.

-Superboy Prime is asinine.

-Mask Of The Phantasm still beats Nolan & Bale.

-Given a lot of what he's done outside of them, the idea of Alan Moore going back to the Big Two to write their superheroes again-- at any point in the future-- is really pretty inane.

Do you have a link to this Ellis Superman essay? Can't find it on Google.

Also, I think I'm madly in love with you.

The Beast Of Yucca Flats

09-11-2009, 09:11 PM

How so?

I say this because most of the attempts I've seen to contest WiR (as in, the very concept of it) seem to mostly be along the lines of "But bad things happen to men in comics, too!" or "Oh? So should we make female characters untouchable holy creatures now?" And these never look like anything more than strawmen, as the whole point of the WiR arguement to start with is pointing out the sheer amount of instances where female characters are killed/debased/what have you to serve the male characters in some way (while the women are usually themselves pushed aside).

This is not to say I'm accusing you-- or any poster in particular-- of doing such a thing, it's just what I've noticed a lot on the subject.

The Beast Of Yucca Flats

09-11-2009, 09:13 PM

Do you have a link to this Ellis Superman essay? Can't find it on Google.

It's not on the web (at least not anymore). It was reprinted in Avatar's From The Desk Of Warren Ellis, Volume One. You could probably scrounge up a copy of this at Avatar's site or Amazon, though.

Also, I think I'm madly in love with you.

Okay, but I come with much baggage.

Jorriss

09-11-2009, 09:39 PM

-I hate the direction Cassie's been taken in the Batman mythos.
-I hate the resurrection of Jason Todd and Stephanie Brown.
-I HATE All-Star Superman.

-I thought Hush was really good and Winnicks run on Batman is on par with batman and robin.

Plotwise...
-I dislike time travel plots meaning I'm starting to dislike the direction of Red Robin.
-I dislike how, despite the fact he should be better than Bruce physically, others are always portrayed better than Dick Grayson or they are made too competitive. Such as Tim Drake and Jason Todd.

Gitaroo_Dude

09-11-2009, 09:52 PM

It's not on the web (at least not anymore). It was reprinted in Avatar's From The Desk Of Warren Ellis, Volume One. You could probably scrounge up a copy of this at Avatar's site or Amazon, though.

Okay, but I come with much baggage.

Didn't show up on Amazon. Any chance you're generous enough to give the general gist of the essay?

jgiannantoni05

09-11-2009, 09:56 PM

-Mask Of The Phantasm still beats Nolan & Bale.
Amen. Amen. Mask of the Phantasm is just the best Batman movie, period IMHO.

The Beast Of Yucca Flats

09-11-2009, 10:06 PM

Didn't show up on Amazon. Any chance you're generous enough to give the general gist of the essay?

Okay. It's essentially an analysis by Ellis on the character, his history, what he feels works, what he feels doesn't, and what he feels may be holding the character & the book(s) back in more modern times. Here's a couple of excerpts:

""Superman is a uniquely American icon, and the first true myth of the electronic age. One special facet to it is that it began as a myth told to children by children.. Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster were youths when they created Superman, a far cry from today's handful of twenty-somethings and carloads of middle-aged men who give today's children their superheroes."

'Superman' is about someone trying their best to save the world one day at a time; and it's also about that person's love for that one whose intellect and emotion and sheer bloody humanity completes him. It's about Superman, and it's about Lois and Clark. And that's all there is. That's the spine. That must be protected to the death, not lost in a cannonade succession of continuing stories.

That's what, in the continuing rush to top the last plotline, I see getting lost."

And he offered up Mark Millar's run on Superman Adventures at the time as an example of 'getting it right.'

Katha Hem

09-12-2009, 08:05 AM

-Grant Morrison hasn't written anything I've liked(for DC) since JLA.
-I love Dr. Light as a rapist, and think more supervillains should be rapists.
-I can't stand the New Gods.
-It's always seemed to me like DC's artists are generally worse than Marvel's.
-I understand what Women In Refrigerators is about. I just don't care.

Tesseract

09-12-2009, 02:39 PM

After reading the rest of the posts, I had to comment:

- It is laughably obvious that 99% of people who hate on Final Crisis and RIP have NO idea what it was about. Both were fantastic, especially RIP. Funny how ignorance equating to hatred extends beyond things like racism. Guess it's a characteristic of humanity as a whole.

- Jeph Loeb is one of the best Batman writers in history. However, his Hulk and Ultimatum blew and continue to blow donkey balls.

- Identity Crisis was my favorite of all the "Crises". You people are willing to love macabre humor ala Deadpool, mind-numbing violence ala Punisher, and every single traditional DC/Marvel superhero's laze faire towards the mass murders of the comic book world, however when a real life occurrence takes place, such as attempted rape, you lose your minds.

- Speaking of attempted rape, THAT'S what took place. Dr. Light did not (I know this will sound distasteful, however I don't know how else to describe it) "finish" what he was trying to do. Go back and look closely at what took place, as well as the timing of the arrival of the JLA.

- Oh, and back to the blasé attitude of our superheroes, Batman's bull**** self-righteous attitude towards what the JLA decides to do, as well as the incredibly drawn-out grudge he holds, is laughable.

- Gabriel Rodriguez is the worst artist in comics, at least that I know of.

Joker2503

09-12-2009, 03:07 PM

Until Alan Moore says, "Nope, you're wrong", I'll believe that the Joker raped Barbara Gordon in 'The Killing Joke'. And it makes the story better than if he just took pictures.

Raharu

09-12-2009, 04:05 PM

-I think, overall, Morrison's Batman run has been a mixed bag. I've enjoyed half of it, but I can honestly say I've found about half of it to be pretty weak, and I honestly don't think it's this great run that a lot of others do. I mostly enjoy Morrison's work, but I think that people are overblowing what he's doing here.

-It will never surprise me to how much people try to discount a writer's ability simply because they don't like his work, what he did with certain characters or how big a ego he has or whatever. Good writing is not always subjective, and it's sad to see fans trying to belittle someone as a 'hack' or just bad writer because of stuff like that when it's pretty damn obvious that they aren't.

maniacthw

09-12-2009, 04:29 PM

I love Alan Moore's work and prefer my comics to be dark and thought provoking.

PympMyQuinjet

09-12-2009, 04:55 PM

OOO I love this thread. I have some things to get off my chest anyway...(some of them may be Marvel related, so whatever)

- I'm really enjoying Fraction's X-Men. I think the fans who are too stuck in the past with their favorite characters need to give it a rest (Really, Dazzler fanboys?)

- I like the Flash: Rebirth

- In fact, I really like all of Geoff's retcons.

- In factier fact, Geoff Johns is my favorite writer.

- I think JLA is going to suck.

- LOTS of DC's artists look exactly the same.

AdamYJ

09-12-2009, 06:50 PM

You know, I don't think many of these things are dark secrets as much as people taking the opportunity to kvetch. :tongue:

Raharu

09-12-2009, 06:56 PM

Here may be a dark secret, though it's not a secret:

I hate, and I mean I fucking HATE, the Parallax recton. I think that was such a cheap, fanfictiony thing, and easily probably the second or thrid stupidest recton of all time. I fully realize how bold a statement the latter thing is, but I really do think that.

The Beast Of Yucca Flats

09-12-2009, 07:01 PM

You know, I don't think many of these things are dark secrets as much as people taking the opportunity to kvetch. :tongue:

Ya don't say!

PympMyQuinjet

09-12-2009, 07:22 PM

You know, I don't think many of these things are dark secrets as much as people taking the opportunity to kvetch. :tongue:

...guilty.

AdamYJ

09-12-2009, 09:18 PM

Ya don't say!

The funny thing is that these people usually don't need to find an excuse.

I mean, I'm reading these and more than half of them are no big flippin' deal. I mean, so what if you hate Kyle Rayner? Lots of people hate Kyle Rayner. People have hated Kyle since he was introduced, and they're generally not quiet about it. It's a big deal if you're bucking the status quo. Me, I posted that I never liked the Wolfman and Perez Teen Titans. Now, that is kind of a big deal, because everybody and their mother seems to love that comic series.

froinlaven

09-12-2009, 10:26 PM

- It is laughably obvious that 99% of people who hate on Final Crisis and RIP have NO idea what it was about.

99.9% of people who hate on Final Crisis and RIP hate Final Crisis and RIP because they were absolute garbage.

If people have no idea what the story is about, and that many people are confused, it means that the writer did not accomplished what he was set out to do and utterly failed.

Grant Morrison missed the mark when he wrote Final Crisis and RIP.

Raharu

09-12-2009, 11:02 PM

If that many people were confused with RIP and Final Crisis than a lot people must really have some horrible reading compehension. I'm sure that irks some people to say, but quality asside, neither of those stories where that hard to understand. I mean maybe some of the metatextual stuff, okay sure, but the story themselves simply weren't that difficult to understand.

RIP was really simple, the only thing that I could really see as confusing was the ID of the Black Glove, which admittedly was not very clear. Final Crisis did a lot of scene jumping, but overall, it really wasn't that difficult to understand. The end with Mandrake was kind of off if you didn't read Superman Beyond, but not that bad.

gforguava

09-13-2009, 04:28 AM

If people have no idea what the story is about, and that many people are confused, it means that the writer did not accomplished what he was set out to do and utterly failed. That's not remotely true or even fair, to both artist and audience. There are people out there who don't "get" a lot things, and really, the belief that something's worth is only measurable by the percentage of the masses that "get" it is insulting. Is Titanic the best movie ever? Is the Dirty Dancing soundtrack the 6th best record of all time? Is The DaVinci code better than Cat's Cradle? etc.

A failure to understand a work doesn't fall squarely at the feet of the creative team behind it, nor does it fall solely to the audience. It's kind of a give and take relationship, and if Morrison was a bit too erudite or vague or meta or any other "criticism" that gets used and a number of people couldn't follow, the question becomes "Why couldn't they follow it?" Was the work impenetrable? Did it make sense? Or was it just not someone's cup of tea, so they didn't even try?
If I was a betting man I would say that more often than not it's the latter, someone doesn't really care for something so no effort goes into it. And that's fine and also perfectly understandable, nothing is made for everyone. And the only real problem is when people forget that disliking something doesn't mean it's bad, it just means you didn't like it.

Artificial idiot

09-13-2009, 04:38 AM

Let's see...

I, unashamedly, prefer The Kingdom over Kingdom Come.

I think Alex Ross is pretty subpar, even as a cover artist. Dale's covers for JSA were much more eye-catching and appealing than Ross', for example.

I think Jim Lee is overrated as an artist. He draws fantastic monsters, but all his people look the same.

Although I quite like Miller's other work (SIn City and Year One are great, for example) I rate DKR as one of the worst Batman stories out there, and despair at the influence it still has over some creators.

Lobo is one of my favourite comic characters.

Everytime somebody suggests Alan Scott's costume needs a revamp, I die a little inside. Leave it alone, it's awesome!

I just don't see the appeal of Batwoman.

Fake Shemp

09-13-2009, 06:45 AM

I don't like Superman. Sure, he has some good stories (All-Star Superman and Kingdom Come spring to mind), but as a character, he does nothing for me.

On a similar note, I don't like Superman's rogues gallery. Okay, well, mostly just Bizarro. Everything Bizarro-related makes me wanna smack myself in the head repeatedly.

I HATED Matt Wagner's Trinity. It sucked, and don't try to tell me otherwise.

Even though I do like his writing (I'm especially digging Adventure Comics), I think Geoff Johns is overrated. As for Grant Morrison, I loved (most of...the Bizarro story and the last couple of issues were kinda lousy) All-Star Superman and am really enjoying Batman and Robin, but aside from that, I don't really think his writing is anything special.

I love Wonder Woman, but for the most part (there were a few good arcs sprinkled in), I didn't really care for her pre-Greg Rucka stories. Oh, and on a similar note, I kinda liked Jodi Picoult's run in the most recent series and I'm probably the only person in the world who will ever say that.

I like Jim Lee's artwork, but I don't get why everyone thinks he's one of the all-time best.

Artificial idiot

09-13-2009, 07:54 AM

Oh, I guess I forgot my darkest comic book secret... One I'm probably going to get completely slated for, but here goes...

After the first arc, Secret Six completely fell flat for me. While the initial concept was great, and I enjoyed seeing Catman made into a very serious character as much as anybody... After the big battle with the army of supervillains and Cheshire turning, a lot of what I read afterwards (the Mad Hatter story arc, and the previews) just seems to have lost a certain spark and parts of it are downright cringe worthy.

I'm truly sorry. :frown:

mosdef

09-13-2009, 09:04 AM

Batman Year One is extremely over-rated.

I hate Superman's costume; I wish they would change it and update it.

I've never been a fan of George Perez, his art does nothing for me. He's over-rated.

True Herald

09-13-2009, 12:36 PM

You know, I don't think many of these things are dark secrets as much as people taking the opportunity to kvetch. :tongue:

That is not a secret, dark or otherwise. :wink:

Tesseract

09-13-2009, 04:15 PM

THANK YOU to both Raharu and gforguava - You both hit on EXACTLY what I was trying to say. It is all too common, not just in this day and age but since the dawn of humanity, for us as a species to discount and bash things which we simply don't comprehend. Homosexuality? "Exotic" religions? Fear itself? Comic books? All examples of people balking at things due to a lack of understanding.

Katha Hem

09-13-2009, 07:43 PM

froinlaven

09-14-2009, 12:42 PM

That's not remotely true or even fair, to both artist and audience. There are people out there who don't "get" a lot things, and really, the belief that something's worth is only measurable by the percentage of the masses that "get" it is insulting. Is Titanic the best movie ever? Is the Dirty Dancing soundtrack the 6th best record of all time? Is The DaVinci code better than Cat's Cradle? etc.

A failure to understand a work doesn't fall squarely at the feet of the creative team behind it, nor does it fall solely to the audience. It's kind of a give and take relationship, and if Morrison was a bit too erudite or vague or meta or any other "criticism" that gets used and a number of people couldn't follow, the question becomes "Why couldn't they follow it?" Was the work impenetrable? Did it make sense? Or was it just not someone's cup of tea, so they didn't even try?
If I was a betting man I would say that more often than not it's the latter, someone doesn't really care for something so no effort goes into it. And that's fine and also perfectly understandable, nothing is made for everyone. And the only real problem is when people forget that disliking something doesn't mean it's bad, it just means you didn't like it.

If they didn't like it, to them it's obviously not good.....So they must have thought it was bad.

Tesseract

09-14-2009, 03:24 PM

Funny how people tend to insult each other over matters of taste. I guess intolerance for different opinions extends beyond things like politics. Honestly, maybe people understood those stories just fine, but still didn't like them. Mileages can vary.

Funny how yet another apologist for narrow-mindedness attempts to use the same, exact point I was trying to make and use it against me. My observation is apparently an insult when it offends someone with a trendy anti-Morrison attitude, however ignorant bashing of his material is a God-given right. Kudos.

Immortal

09-14-2009, 08:18 PM

I support Jason Todd's return.

dupersuper

09-15-2009, 10:28 PM

-Though it's a tad old (11 years), the Superman offices seriously need to read Warren Ellis's "Superman's Dying Romance" essay sometime.

-Yeah, I get Superman: Doomsday wasn't really a high watermark for the character or it's medium or anything, but let's be honest here: was "The Death Of Superman," really, either?

The jist of the essay you give certainly fits with his writing of Lois and Clark in his JLA Confidential story arc...

Both were fun fight scenes with lots o' 'splosions and collapsing buildings, but the funeral and return were very good comic stories IMHO.

pariah-1972

12-30-2009, 09:54 PM

I hate Frank Miller except for on Daredevil.
Alex Ross is not good on interiors and Kingdom Come starts off really slowly and is too crowded with made up characters and cameos.

I love Justice League Detroit and i don't care what anyone says.

The Golden Age was too slow and boring.

The character Pariah should be in as many books as Wolverine.

Lancerman

12-30-2009, 11:06 PM

- I didn't think Batman: Year One was all that special. It was good. But I don't understand why it is considered the masterpiece everyone else thinks it is. It was very simple and I think that any comic writer could write that story.

- I liked Batman: RIP, I did not think that it was to difficult to understand. Sure it was far more intrinsical than a standard comic arc, but it wasnt the trippy mind screw up that was Final Crisis. It's only fault was that maybe for the being such a pivotal story in the Batman mythos it would have been more welcoming to more casual fans (ie: those who did not read Morrisons whole run and only jumped on after they heard about Batman RIP and its impact on the Batman universe) to take a more conventional storytelling format so some readers wouldn't be overwhelmed.

- Speaking of Final Crisis I actually liked the concept. But it actually needed (and this is what will probably go agianst the majority opinion) to be alot longer. That way some of the key moments in the story would be able to be shown more throughly instead of the author just telling us that a major event happened while we were following some other side storyline that seemed to have no meaning to the reader at the time.

- I actually like Flash: Rebirth. It does what it needs to. Introduce a character that was dead for nearly a quarter of century to a modern audience, while still having being in some type of story arc. Its only real problem is the ridiculous delays.

- Lastly on the Superman side of things, I don't care if its part of some big set up for next year, I will never read a book titled Superman that does not star the character Superman. At least have Mon El where the suit, its not like Clarks using it at the moment.

JurassicParkIsAnAwesomeMovie

12-30-2009, 11:25 PM

I started reading the Dark Knight Returns and never finished it.

wolvie616

12-30-2009, 11:31 PM

I hate Grant Morrison and Frank Quitley

after reading it again, I also dislike Watchmen

and I Like Jeph Loeb on Batman

JurassicParkIsAnAwesomeMovie

12-30-2009, 11:34 PM

I hate Grant Morrison and Frank Quitley

after reading it again, I also dislike Watchmen

and I Like Jeph Loeb on Batman

I too like Jeph Loeb on Batman, but unlike you I loved Watchmen, both the book and movie.

wolvie616

12-30-2009, 11:41 PM

I too like Jeph Loeb on Batman, but unlike you I loved Watchmen, both the book and movie.

I just found it much too dark.

I'm sure If a 12 or 14 year old read it, they would be shocked by it. scenes like rorshach and the mental evaluation, the ending, etc.

maybe I just don't like Alan Moore......

JurassicParkIsAnAwesomeMovie

12-31-2009, 12:07 AM

I just found it much too dark.

I'm sure If a 12 or 14 year old read it, they would be shocked by it. scenes like rorshach and the mental evaluation, the ending, etc.

maybe I just don't like Alan Moore......

No problems, I personally like darker and grittier stories. Watchmen and other Alan Moore stories aren't for everyone, no matter what the hardcore fanboys tell you.

AugustEngine

12-31-2009, 12:24 AM

That is not a secret, dark or otherwise. :wink:

Herald! I remember you from the 'Rama. How the heck have you been?

-----------------------------------

Anyway, my dark secrets (which are not secrets 'cause I'm pretty open about 'em.)

- I love the various revamp or replacement heroes from the 90's. Whether it's electric Superman, Guy Gardner: Warrior or Fate, these characters just work for me for whatever reason.

- I have real mad-on for the blatant hero worship I see in comics today. When I see characters inner- monologuing about how great other characters are, I want to throw said book out of a high window.

- I don't have a third. You can stop reading now.

Jeremi

12-31-2009, 01:02 AM

I've just recently started to dip my toes in the DCverse but here goes.

- I absolutely loath Superman, WW and Batman (in that order)
- Grace Choi kicks ass
- In fact I like a lot more of the B/C/D-List villains/heroes then the A-List ones
- Understood Batman R.I.P., didn't really care for it but liked the villains
- Joker should be shot and then thrown into the sun
- Not really liking Blackest Night
- Superboy Prime is tolerable

LightningRider

12-31-2009, 02:46 AM

I've never bought a Superman Comic. Oh yes, I said it. :tongue:

Also, I... really like Bryan Miller's writing.

Kill me now. :redface:

dantheman0056

12-31-2009, 09:47 AM

I bought and read the Final Crisis HC......

and loved it.

Lancerman

12-31-2009, 10:13 AM

I also happen to think that Superboy Prime is one of the best villians created this decade. In fact he should get his own series.

eligibility

12-31-2009, 11:11 AM

-I'm sorely disappointed in Blackest Night [and its tie ins] so far, but holding out hope. The concept is so emotional, and yet outside of a couple of shining moments, it has been so emotionally flat and formulaic and repetitive that I don't even know where to start. #6 at least picked things up for me.

-I love Damian Wayne.

-I also love Jason Todd, despite knowing and agreeing with almost every criticism on how poorly he's been written. I think it's his concept that I am in love with, more.

-I like Hal and Kyle equally :eek:

-I wish we had more focus on Obsidian.

-Jade's death was absurd and she needs to come back and keep far away from Kyle after she does.

-I miss Rucka on Wonder Woman, despite loving Gail.

-Secret Six is one of the best books out right now.

-Tempest and the entire Aquafamily are more interesting to me than most DC characters, potential-wise.

-I don't like the direction of Tim Drake's character.

-I love Cassie Sandsmark.

-I like Dick Grayson as Batman.

-I think Wonder Woman needs to spend less time on Amazon Island.

-I think Wonder Woman is easier to "fix" than people realize.

-I think Connor and Roy are more interesting than Ollie (though I don't dislike Ollie).

-I have begun to like Donna Troy more than Wonder Woman. Yes, terrible writing and retcons aside.

-I find Princess Iolande far superior in character potential and background than Soranik Natu. I feel Natu was created solely to give Kyle conflict concerning her being Sinestro's daughter, rather than having HER deal with it on her own and the conflict be hers as a focus.

-I find Sinestro to be the most interesting Lantern.

-Katma Tui is after him.

-Carol Ferris needs a new love interest.

-I think people are threatened by Kate Kane and don't give her a fair shot.

-I LOVE Stephanie Brown and think she's great as batgirl. I still hate what they did to Cass, but oh well!

-I want Kyle back on Earth. A note to that: I also want his friendship with Wally West restored, want him to strike up a friendship with Dick Grayson, and want him to be friends with Donna again. And want more interaction with him and Hal.

-I want Guy back in a League.

-I want more focus on Tora and Bea again.

-I prefer architect John Stewart to military John.

-I wish Katma Tui could come back.

-The Indigo Tribe is the best Lantern tribe and the most interesting.

-I think DC would benefit from bringing back to life almost all of the characters killed off in the past ten years, and then not making any major deaths happen for a long while.

-I think more heroes need to realistically turn bad or ambivalent.

-I have warmed up to Renee Montoya as the Question, even if I still prefer her as SassyLadyCop!

-I think Jason should be redeemed into moral ambiguity and middle ground, rather than made more and more psychotic.

-I liked the idea of a Jason Todd and Donna Troy friendship :frown: even if it was ruined by a horrible piece of work that we shall not name.

-I sometimes wonder if Diana's fans will EVER let her have a boyfriend.

-I hate Trinity -shipping.

-I find Bruce's relationship with Talia to be more interesting than his with Selina (I like both, though).

- Ravager is underrated.

-I think Booster Gold is terrible without Ted. He just isn't the same.

-Ollie needs a lot of work done on him but I think he can become one of DC's most likable characters if done right.

-They need to bring back Hank Hall, as a good guy.

-Doctor Mid Nite is very underutilized.

-I have the bad habit of falling for relationships that are already broken up in DC. I never am resistant to new ones, but not many live up to a lot of old pairs and couples that I think just work better. I don't know why DC won't let couples just be happy, but I think a few ones should give it another go under the right writer. I won't say who though :biggrin:

And the darkest secret of all:

-I am really looking forward to Robinson's new League.

frostedone

12-31-2009, 12:42 PM

I do not like Morrison's Batman.

I did not like the Watchmen comic or The Dark Knight Returns.

I support Batman/Talia and Dick/Starfire.

I did not like the Ledger Joker. Nothing against him, it is just that he was not the Joker to me.

DetectiveDupin

12-31-2009, 01:06 PM

I think All Star Batman and Robin is Brilliant. Not just funny or so bad it's good, I mean BRILLIANT. But that's not really a secret, I tell everbody... Even random people at the bus. Laugh if you want but I always have the seat all for my self.

Also I Haaaate fandom. Hate it. It's not really a farfetched stereotype that most of us are self absorbed (I don't like it, Rob Liefield should be on jail, George Lucas should die on a fire), Arrogant for no damn reason (Well if you are not smart enough to like Star Trek...) or self righteous (I don't care if women don't care, That fictional character is showing cleavage and that's Sexism!) Pricks!

And yes I noticed the Irony of the above parragraph. I am also self deprecating...deal with it.
And I actually know atleast two guys that are all of the above, one of which owns a comic book store and banned me from it... You don't want me to get started on that motherfu&#r

-I like Grant Morrison AND Geoff Johns. The impression I get from CBR is that Johns fans are too stupid to enjoy Morrison and that Morrison fans don't like to admit that they enjoy John's straight forward superhero work.

-I LOVE All-Star Batman and Robin. It's MUCH better than DKR and almost as good as Year One. And a brilliant portrayal of Hal Jordan to boot.

-Not a fan of EVS. His style of ultra-defined posed superheroes is too stale in an age that gives us Frank Quitely.

I agree with both of these and I'll throw in that I haven't read V For Vendetta, nor do I have a huge interest to. Kingdom Come either.

hondobrode

12-31-2009, 01:21 PM

Really enjoy :

Hal Jordan as both Parallax and the Spectre.
Identity Crisis
Azrael

and don't get :

Green Arrow

Karl O'Neill

12-31-2009, 01:23 PM

I like Jason todd.

I hate spoiler, bart allen and firestorm.

I love HUSH.

Action Ace

12-31-2009, 02:52 PM

I don't think comic book stories should be collected into trade paperbacks until five years after the last issue ships. And not all stories should be collected.

I think Dan Didio has been, overall, a good leader for DC Comics.

My least favorite decade for DC Comics is the 1980s.

Crisis on Infinite Earths is the worst thing to ever happen to DC Comics even if it is the best drawn series in history.

Even with all the idiocy in the JLA franchise from Detroit to just before the Big 7 returned, the worst thing to ever happen to the team was letting Firestorm join.

The Archie Legion was better than the 5 Year Gap Legion, every Legion is better than the 5 Year Gap Legion.

Peter David butchered Supergirl and Aquaman and I'm glad to see those concepts abandonded.

Batman should be seen in daylight hours, have a Robin, be a member of the JLA and smile once in a while.

Superman's power level has nothing to do with how good his stories can be.

Superman's outfit is fine the way it is.

Continuity...BAH!

I'm not a fan of character "progression" either. Bruce Wayne eternally thirty and Dick Grayson eternally thirteen? I'm in favor.

Kingdom Come is the best comic book story since Watchmen and Justice may be the best one since then.

I enjoyed Adam Beechen on Robin, so Cassandra Cain and her fans must be destroyed.

Chris Nolan's Batman movies aren't any more enjoyable than Joel Schumacher's

Batman Beyond, not that good

Jim Lee, mediocre on a good day. And Frank Quitely isn't any better.

Total number of the 15,000 comics I own that are from the Vertigo imprint: 0

When you toss in X-Men comics and manga that number triples. :biggrin:

True Herald

12-31-2009, 02:57 PM

Herald! I remember you from the 'Rama. How the heck have you been?

Doing fine! How have you been??

Anyway, my dark secrets (which are not secrets 'cause I'm pretty open about 'em.)

- I love the various revamp or replacement heroes from the 90's. Whether it's electric Superman, Guy Gardner: Warrior or Fate, these characters just work for me for whatever reason.

Electric Superman works because it proves that changing the powers doesn't change the heroism of Superman. The neverending battle didn't end just because of a physical change.

Warrior works for me because of the way Beau Smith characterized him, plus his great supporting cast.

Fate, I can take or leave. I did like a few of the other characters in his series.

- I have real mad-on for the blatant hero worship I see in comics today. When I see characters inner- monologuing about how great other characters are, I want to throw said book out of a high window.

That's called "shilling".

- I don't have a third. You can stop reading now.

Thanks for the head's-up. :wink:

Brucci Wane

12-31-2009, 03:02 PM

- I think that Batman: Year One is terribly overrated. Yes, it is a very good story, and the art is amazing...but I don't get why it is considered the best. I haven't been disappointed in a comic as badly as I was with this. I much preferred DKR.

- I loved RIP and hated Final Crisis. I tried as hard as I could to love it, but I just don't get the purpose.

- Final Crisis #6: the Batman/Darkseid scene was one of the worst I have ever seen. The two-page spread with Bruce being hit by the Omega Sanction was awful. I was offended that I purchased the series so far so that I could see the "final fate of Bruce" and that was what I got. If I may continue on this line, all of RIP was so intensely Bruce-centric that to have Darkseid zap in away in two pages made no sense to me. I don't mind Batman stories being supernatural, but I don't like them being cosmic. I feel it just doesn't fit his character.

- I will agree that Identity Crisis was pretty great. Yeah, the ending was a let-down compared to the rest of the story, but I usually find myself disappointed by the way big stories like the Crises end. I've accepted that and just enjoy the journey, since the destination doesn't usually deliver.

- I don't care at all about Barry Allen. I would snap up a good Wally series in a heartbeat (bring back Johns!) but with the recent news about the new Flash books, I will be spending my money in other ways.

- I didn't get the awesomeness of the Sinestro Corps War. I much preferred Rebirth and am enjoying Blackest Night more. Maybe I need to read it again, but I just didn't see the appeal.

eligibility

12-31-2009, 03:03 PM

I did not like the Watchmen comic or The Dark Knight Returns.

I support Batman/Talia and Dick/Starfire.

Agreed with all of this. I have nothing against BatmanSelina and DickBarbara and like both, though, I just prefer the other two. And blagh, Watchmen.

Froggy

12-31-2009, 03:16 PM

Young Justice>Teen Titans in every aspect

lariatofhestia

12-31-2009, 03:21 PM

I really don't get the fascination for All Star Superman. But then it is the prequel to DC One Million one of the silliest storylines in my opinion as if Final Crisis. Superman playing God and changing people's destiny is not what he is about.

I think Dark Knight Strikes Back is better than Dark Knight Returns.

Kingdom Come is great.It's really a great work and I love Ross' art but I don't get why Superman needs to gray so soon and look like an old truck driver at times. lol

Human love interests grounding superheroes is passe and dull dull dull....Lois, Carol,Linda, Iris etc etc...yawn...can we please have something new?

JL/JLU is only good if you are a Batman fan.

I love the Zatanna/Batman relationship and think it should be explored more.

I can't stand Kory with Dick. Anyone but her please.

Wonder Woman does not need the dumb half baked Diana Prince id that they relaunched in series 3 telling her she is not human enough. Three years later and WW still does not know who she is. Wow. Talk about fail.

matt_hatyber

12-31-2009, 03:35 PM

I liked most of countdown...

eligibility

12-31-2009, 04:04 PM

I love the Zatanna/Batman relationship and think it should be explored more.

I can't stand Kory with Dick. Anyone but her please.

Kory is too good for Dick :wink:

Agreed on the Zatanna/Batman relationship!

I liked most of countdown...

...Now THAT is dark. It featured three of my favorites and I still can't feel that way.

Munkiman

12-31-2009, 11:15 PM

I liked the first half Morrison's Batman run more than R.I.P., in general, if that counts. Though maybe I just need to re-read it...?

Teal_Lantern

12-31-2009, 11:21 PM

another_version

12-31-2009, 11:26 PM

Young Justice>Teen Titans in every aspect

Yes, Yes, and YES!

Is DC ever going to get around to collecting Young Justice?

JurassicParkIsAnAwesomeMovie

12-31-2009, 11:50 PM

I liked the first half Morrison's Batman run more than R.I.P., in general, if that counts. Though maybe I just need to re-read it...?

I really didn't care for Morrison's Batman run at all, I do like Batman & Robin though.

dewey412

01-01-2010, 01:30 AM

I think Batman & Robin, regardless who the artist is, is really not very good...Honestly, the only Morrison stuff I like is his JLA run....

I liked Winick's Outsiders...

I am a huge mark for Triumph.....

I thought Countdown had some good stuff in it...

I liked Superboy Prime.....

dewey412

01-01-2010, 01:31 AM

Avenger08

01-01-2010, 10:06 AM

I have always hated robin.

Not the characters in particular, hell i love Red Robin and Nightwing when they arent with batman, but really, Robin is the second most rediculous comic book character ever imagined (second to Bucky but i think robin may even surpass him).

Really, Batman is so stern about protecting the innocent, but he continually adopts like 10 year old boys and making them fight against serial killers and rapists and psychopaths. Even after the second one was KILLED he continued to adopt.

I mean really.

Also, i liked the DKR for the ending of it.
However, the art and the in general story is crap (IMO). I could barely make it through the first 10 pages.
Plus it makes no sense. Ronald Regan is the president and it is set in the future of then by like 20 or 30 years.

I love female Dr. Light.

Ghost Shark

01-01-2010, 11:36 AM

- I'm liking Geoff Johns' retcons, but please, can this be the end of them for awhile?

- Brad Meltzer should never, ever be allowed to write comic books again.

- Alan Moore should get over himself.

- I liked Dark Knight Returns, but Dark Knight's Revenge was an abortion.

- I wish DC had had the balls to restart continuity from day one after Crisis On Infinite Earths as was the original plan.

- Too many Flashes.

- I am seriously convinced the James Robinson writing comics today is an entirely different individual than the James Robinson who wrote Starman.

- I liked Ryan Choi as The Atom and wish they'd let him keep the title.

elbobbo

01-01-2010, 02:25 PM

I despise the Watchmen and everything else Alan Moore has ever done, except for the Killing Joke.
I also don't like Dark Knight Returns, mainly because I can't stand the art

thehod

01-01-2010, 03:17 PM

First some confessions.

I have zero interest in Kirby's Fourth World characters. In fact, I find Kirbys art not to my taste at all. I understand his contribution to the medium, and he'd appear on my list of greatest comic artists, but I personally don't like it.

I feel the same about Neal Adams art.

My favourite Batman was the 1950s era when he was meeting aliens, travelling through time, wearing different colour costumes and turning into a zebra.

DCs Western titles have never interested me. Jonah Hex is meant to be superb, but I can't muster any enthusiasm for it.

I find the writing in mainstream DC titles around the late 70s and early 80s to be so bad it makes my teeth hurt.

Jim Lee can draw some nice stuff, but he can't draw a properly proportioned woman to save his life.

And some observations...

Grant Morrisons writing is a little hit and miss at times, but you can't adequatly judge it if you've only read Final Crisis and RIP. Read Zenith, Animal Man, JLA, WE3 and All-Star Superman and then see if you still think he's over-rated. Final Crisis and RIP was no where near his best work, and they were still a damn sight better than his The Mystery Play.

I can see how Alan Moore's work may not be to everyone's taste, but in the same way that I recognise Jack Kirby's art but not enjoy it, you cannot deny the influence that Alan Moore has had on the medium. Just because he has decided that he doesn't fancy writing superheros any more is no reason to define him as washed up or stuck up.

It is perfectly acceptable to not like something, but my dislike of Citizen Kane doesn't make it an intrinsically bad movie, and my love of Spaced Invaders doesn't automatically make it Oscar worthy. Taste is subjective. Quality is not.

the4thpip

01-01-2010, 03:26 PM

I bought every issue of Sovereign Seven and thought it had some nice moments.

Cerebro

01-01-2010, 03:38 PM

I hate every Kryptonian that isn't Superman, Krypto, Supergirl, Conner Kent, or Power Girl.

The black and white showcase and masterworks from Marvel and DC are rip offs and shouldn't be in black and white. i am very unwilling to buy giant unreadable Silver Age books, just so I can show it off, waste money, or or try and read the terrible written stories and art.

I hate the art in Identity Crisis, everything with Robin, his dad, and Batman should of been in its own bat book, because it barely tied in with the rest of the Justice League stuff in Identity Crisis. I like Identity Crisis, but frankly, its overrated. People in the story and fans made way too big of a deal out of the deaths in that book, besides Robin's dad. these deaths also weren't necessary, because unlike most of the deaths in the DC Universe, these didn't set up Blackest Night at all.

I love All Star Batman And Robin The Boy Wonder and Year One, but I hate Dark Knight Returns and DKR2.

I like Judd Winick's recent run on BATMAN.

I really like Gotham City Sirens.

thehod

01-01-2010, 11:15 PM

The black and white showcase and masterworks from Marvel and DC are rip offs and shouldn't be in black and white. i am very unwilling to buy giant unreadable Silver Age books, just so I can show it off, waste money, or or try and read the terrible written stories and art.

The only issue I have with the Showcase and Essential editions is that some artists work just doesn't look right in black and white. Curt Swan's art, for example, just looks incomplete without any colour. But that's just a personal thing. Some artists work looks better in black and white to me. Joe Kubert for one. Berni Wrightson is another.

Having said that, I think you're taking out of your rear end about these editions. They are affordable ways of being able to read some of comics greatest stories. The reason they are so cheap is exaclty because they are in black and white. Its cheaper to print.

And quite frankly, some of the unintellegable rubbish that's served up in mainstream superhero comics today, both in writing and in art, can't hold a candle to some of the material reprinted in these editions.

dupersuper

01-01-2010, 11:59 PM

I really liked...Gerard Jones Justice League Europe/International/America era...

Seconded. I very much liked his GL, Mosaic and El Diablo to.

Here is one that I know will ruffle feathers. I don't like Alan Moores "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorow" story. It is just another What If... story that somehow gained this cult following just because he was able to kill off Superman in it. I have just never been that impressed by it.

You know he didn't technically kill him off, right?

I tend to ignore anything that happened in the DCU between 1988 and 2008 unless a particular event from that time period is referenced. IMO, most of that 20 year period sounds like crap.

I know this is just a rant thread, and not meant to start arguments, but it makes me sad to see some one miss out on Ostranders Suicide Squad, Martian Manhunter and Spectre, Yales Deadshot mini and Manhunter, the triangle era Superman from 1990-1995ish, Morrisons Justice League, Davids Aquaman, Supergirl and Young Justice, Priests Steel, Perez WW, Sterns Starman, Robinsons Starman, Chronos...

-I like Hal and Kyle equally :eek:

Same here, more or less

-I wish we had more focus on Obsidian.

There's stuff happening with him soon...though it's him as an egg.

-Secret Six is one of the best books out right now.

That's hardly a dark secret...certainly no secret on this board.

-I prefer architect John Stewart to military John.

Agreed, but I'm a Gerard Jones fan.

-I wish Katma Tui could come back.

As a zombie ok?

I have warmed up to Renee Montoya as the Question, even if I still prefer her as SassyLadyCop!

She was a member of The Great 10? :tongue:

The black and white showcase and masterworks from Marvel and DC are rip offs and shouldn't be in black and white. i am very unwilling to buy giant unreadable Silver Age books, just so I can show it off, waste money, or or try and read the terrible written stories and art.

And quite frankly, some of the unintellegable rubbish that's served up in mainstream superhero comics today, both in writing and in art, can't hold a candle to some of the material reprinted in these editions.

Oh goodie, another "my favourite era rocks and yours sucks" fight. Can't we all just agree that EVERY era has good stuff AND crap?

bluebeetle73

01-02-2010, 12:32 AM

- I'm not an Alan Moore fan and think he is a self absorbed ass. He's done a few stories I've found entertaining, but he is not as brilliant as he thinks he is.
- I did not like Grant Morrison's JLA
- I thought most of the tie-in were much better than the actual Final Crisis mini, which I found to be painfully dull.
- I'm bored with Batman and wish Bruce would stay "dead" because Grayson Batman is more interesting at this point.
- With the exception of Darkseid I have always hated the New Gods
- I've never been a Jack Kirby fan and think that all the "he's my main influence" by comic book artists is just lip service because they are afraid to admit they never paid any attention to his work. Most of the younger artists probably wouldn't know who he was if not for reading so many articles in Wizard magazine where his name is mentioned.
-I can't stand John Stewart (Green Lantern), in the comics or in the cartoons.
- I want to like Aquaman, but I have never read a single story featuring the character that was even remotely interesting.
-I like some Image books, including some of Liefeld's stuff.
-I prefer Wally over Barry
- I prefer Kyle over Hal
- I liked Identity Crisis
- I still enjoy reading old issues of Alpha Flight

thehod

01-02-2010, 12:32 AM

Oh goodie, another "my favourite era rocks and yours sucks" fight. Can't we all just agree that EVERY era has good stuff AND crap?

Absolutely, which is why I caveated my comment with the word "some".

true_DD_believer

01-02-2010, 12:49 AM

-I wish Kyle Rayner and Wally West were the only green lantern and flashes.
-I still love James Ribinson's work.
-Green Arrow has always been that annoying useless character to me.
-Philip Tan's art to me, is awesome.

Utility Belt

01-02-2010, 12:05 PM

I DON'T like the way Frank Quitely draws Superman's costume. I hate that little cape and the boxer shorts he draws on him.

Cerebro

01-02-2010, 12:45 PM

Superman: Brainiac is crap.

Uxas

01-02-2010, 01:05 PM

- Watchmen is not Moore's best work. That would be Miracleman.

- I don't hate Robinson's current writing.

- I personally don't mind legacy- characters getting 'pushed aside'.

- Final Crisis is the best event comic since COIE. It's also the only event that dared to try something different.

- I actually liked Superboy Prime until Countdown.

Oskar Von Strange

01-02-2010, 05:02 PM

I actually like Philip Tan's art in B&R.

DetectiveDupin

01-02-2010, 05:06 PM

- I liked Dark Knight Returns, but Dark Knight's Revenge was an abortion.

I never heard of a book called Dark Knight's Revenge.

- Final Crisis is the best event comic since COIE. It's also the only event that dared to try something different.

Agreed.

live-a-live

01-02-2010, 06:24 PM

-I really liked both Amazon's attack and Pfeifer's Catwoman run

-I think that Frank Quitely is overated. Most of his characters are just plain ugly

-While i do like the run, i find Gail Simone's Wonder Woman hard to get sometimes. I still don't really know what "Ends Of the earth" or whatever the Beowolf(sp?) story was really about.

-I think that Greg Rucka is better than both Geoff John's and Grant Morrisson

- Not totally related to DC, but i enjoy most of Loeb's work

I have a feeling that i'm gonna be laughed at/mocked/hated because of a few of these

Ilash

01-02-2010, 06:54 PM

- I've never been a Jack Kirby fan and think that all the "he's my main influence" by comic book artists is just lip service because they are afraid to admit they never paid any attention to his work. Most of the younger artists probably wouldn't know who he was if not for reading so many articles in Wizard magazine where his name is mentioned.

This is probably factually wrong. I'm not personally a huge Kirby fan simply because I find most of the comics from the time when he did most of his work to be really hard to get through. That said, he's clearly a huge influence on many, if not most writers to this day in the same way that Dylan, Chuck Berry and the Beatles still influence modern pop musicians. The influence may not be direct and/ or obvious but in the same way that those guys redefined the very language of popular music, Kirby redefined the language of comic book art. The influence might not be obvious but taht doesn't mean it isn't there - it's pretty much impossible for it not to be.

Ilash

01-02-2010, 07:05 PM

-

-I think that Frank Quitely is overated. Most of his characters are just plain ugly

-I think that Greg Rucka is better than both Geoff John's and Grant Morrisson

I mostly agree about Quitely. I too absolutely hate the way he draws people. That said, his dynamic layouts, sense of scope and sheer storytelling prowess actually puts him in the very rare category of an artist that I simultaneously love and loathe.

Rucka is definitely better than Johns right now and, technically speaking, I think he's a far, far more accomplished writer. I don't think he's better than Morrison, however but I would argue that he's basically the polar opposite of Morrison in his sensibilities - his writing is as "street-level", grounded and character-driven
as Morrison's is epic, wildly imaginative and ideas/ plot-driven.

joint venture

01-02-2010, 07:59 PM

I despise Alex Ross's art and the aftermath he brought.

Sick and dry from bulbous-muscled and fuchsia colored heroes from the nineties; he gave comic book art something it never had, the look and feel of a ROMANCE PICTURE NOVEL.

Oh, and my ugliest. Young Heroes in Love, Jack Kirby's Marvel Romance anthologies and Joe Madureira (wherever the stuck-up dick ends up printing something)

supamike

01-02-2010, 08:05 PM

i don't get all the hype on gaimans Sandman.I got the first and second trade it was ok but i don't see what the big deal is.

pariah-1972

01-02-2010, 08:10 PM

i don't get all the hype on gaimans Sandman.I got the first and second trade it was ok but i don't see what the big deal is.Same here bro.

bluebeetle73

01-02-2010, 08:48 PM

This is probably factually wrong. I'm not personally a huge Kirby fan simply because I find most of the comics from the time when he did most of his work to be really hard to get through. That said, he's clearly a huge influence on many, if not most writers to this day in the same way that Dylan, Chuck Berry and the Beatles still influence modern pop musicians. The influence may not be direct and/ or obvious but in the same way that those guys redefined the very language of popular music, Kirby redefined the language of comic book art. The influence might not be obvious but taht doesn't mean it isn't there - it's pretty much impossible for it not to be.

Because his use of perspective influenced a group of older artist, I concede the man had an impact on art in the industry. I just think that with the exception of Erik Larsen, few artist can actually claim him as a direct influence and only do so because it is seen as the proper thing to do. Much in the same way everyone now claims Michael Jackson as a favorite singer, even though they hadn't listened to an album he made since Thriller, if ever. He's dead so you have to say nice things about him even though most thought he was a pedophile and freak when he was alive. If one person, especially one of influence , claims that someone is a "great" or an influence then everyone else feels obliged to do the same. That's all I'm saying.

BTW the comparison between Kirby and Jackson is just meant to illustrate the change in popular view of a person after they've passed their prime or died, not a comment on Kirby as a person.

After reading your reply I've thought of a few more things to add to my list.
-Bob Dylan wrote some good lyrics, but is one of the absolute worst singers I've ever heard.
-I can't stand Led Zepplin
-The Beatles had a few good songs, but over all I don't like them.
-I think John Lennon was a great humanitarian, but don't like his solo music.
-I don't like U2
- I liked Superman Returns but only in the context of a continuation of the original Reeve Superman movies. If you look at it as Superman III, it makes a little more sense. That being said also think that all of the Superman movies are incredibly disrespectful of the comic book character and stray too far out of character.
- I think Kidder was an ok Lois, but there would have been a lot of better and more attractive actresses for the part.
-I don't like Meryl Streep
-I liked the Ironman movie more than Dark Knight. The only part of DK I liked was Ledger's Joker.
- I think the animated DC movies are much better than their live action ones.

Fake Shemp

01-02-2010, 10:06 PM

-Secret Six is one of the best books out right now.

This isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

-I think that Greg Rucka is better than both Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison

I agree 100%.

Oh, and a few more:

- I don't know how unpopular an opinion this is, but I absolutely HATE the whole "Silver Age nostalgia" thing that DC seems to be so in love with lately. Maybe it's because I'm a youngin' and it was all before my time, but I just can't get into it.

- I don't think Ivan Reis' art is anything special. Obviously I can recognize the fact that he's a good artist, but his work does nothing for me. It just strikes me as being kind of generic.

- I like John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner more than Hal Jordan.

- Ryan Choi isn't just the best Atom, he's (or at least he was) one of the best characters in the DCU. And the whole thing where they tried to turn him into another boring, cookie cutter hero before pretty much just tossing him into comic limbo? Grrrr, I'm getting mad just thinking about it! :mad:

supamike

01-02-2010, 10:13 PM

pariah-1972

01-02-2010, 10:43 PM

I'm not sure where this whole Silver age thing is coming from since DC has mostly been mired in the Dark Ages for a long time the only exceptions i see are Kingdom Come and the new Batgirl book.

I think they do have a problem with bringing back the old silver age guard but those are the most popular versions.

Jabroniville

01-03-2010, 01:11 AM

1) I thought "The Power Company" was a ridiculous idea that couldn't possibly work in today's market. I mean, a team of brand-new (or unproven) characters, all decked out in '90s gear, in the year 2000 or whenever it was? It was like it was ASKING to be cancelled.

2) I really don't get why anyone likes Hawkman. Reading Johns' JSA run with him, he pretty much acts like a gigantic dick 90% of the time, stalking Hawkgirl, treating the younger members like crap, then DEMANDING everyone follow him to Kahndaq because "heroes don't kill" like Black Adam is doing, then all of a sudden changing his mind during the "Gog" storyline, as now killing evil soldiers is all cool.

Hey, DC: Having all the other heroes talk about how tough and bad-ass a guy is don't make him bad-ass. And having a guy whose sole power is Flight fight people like Black Adam just makes him look silly. No wonder his book is always getting cancelled.

3) I think the best thing DC could ever do with Aquaman was kill him and everyone talk about how great he was, and then NEVER BRING HIM BACK, EVER. It doesn't matter how good Peter David's run was, or what you can do with the character, etc; it is part of pop culture (which is way stronger a force than anything comics can bring to bear) that Aquaman Sucks. Atlantis is boring, and Aquaman is just silly, and there's nothing comics can do to prevent that amount of public opinion.

4) I really don't think Green Arrow is that great a character. Too preachy, annoying, and an example of a dumbass liberal character.

5) I like Jack Kirby and all, but the New Gods are stupid. Big, hideous costumes full of circles and goofy helmets, stupid names (Glorious Godfrey? Big Barda? Vundabarr!?!), and silly concepts throughout. Darkseid is okay, Orion could be decent if there were aspects to his character beyond "rage" (his own series likely showed them, but every appearance outside of it is him being a tool), but the rest are a waste.

6) I don't get Ray Palmer as a character- just too boring.

7) Don't get Metamorpho either. Maybe it's because I was raised on Marvel that I don't like so many of DC's more minor "these guys are AWESOME and need a chance!" guys. But I just don't.

8) Every time a new Doom Patrol series gets released, I laugh. How many cancellations does DC need before they realize this concept will never sell?

bluebeetle73

01-03-2010, 01:36 AM

- I don't know how unpopular an opinion this is, but I absolutely HATE the whole "Silver Age nostalgia" thing that DC seems to be so in love with lately. Maybe it's because I'm a youngin' and it was all before my time, but I just can't get into it.

Yeah thats been going on for awhile.Ever since mark waid did that jla year 1 mini series.Dont get it twisted it was a great story but that kinda was what started the whole "Silver Age nostalgia" I have nothing but respect for the silver age and all the characters that came out of it but to me its alot like the tv shows you liked as a kid.Yeah Mcguyver was awesome but try and watch it know and its like "holy crap!why did i like this??"

I'm also sick of the Silver Age revival. I started reading comics at the tail end of the Silver Age but didn't really start getting into comics, as far as collecting monthly issues, until CoIE. So while I appreciate the previous ages of comics, if I wanted to read those type of stories I'd buy the trades.

Apathetic-piggy

01-03-2010, 04:04 AM

2) I really don't get why anyone likes Hawkman. Reading Johns' JSA run with him, he pretty much acts like a gigantic dick 90% of the time, stalking Hawkgirl, treating the younger members like crap, then DEMANDING everyone follow him to Kahndaq because "heroes don't kill" like Black Adam is doing, then all of a sudden changing his mind during the "Gog" storyline, as now killing evil soldiers is all cool.

Hey, DC: Having all the other heroes talk about how tough and bad-ass a guy is don't make him bad-ass. And having a guy whose sole power is Flight fight people like Black Adam just makes him look silly. No wonder his book is always getting cancelled.

Well, to be fair, he has more than the power of flight to his character. Moreover, you're using only Johns' interpretation in your reasoning, so it's possible you just don't like the take. Or the character, but for the sake of argument, keep that in mind.

I do agree that it was odd to reverse his standpoint on killing, although considering his backstory, his views on it could be more lax. That said, it should have been more consistent. And yes, it's also common lately to just write Hawkman as a colossal dick.

3) I think the best thing DC could ever do with Aquaman was kill him and everyone talk about how great he was, and then NEVER BRING HIM BACK, EVER. It doesn't matter how good Peter David's run was, or what you can do with the character, etc; it is part of pop culture (which is way stronger a force than anything comics can bring to bear) that Aquaman Sucks. Atlantis is boring, and Aquaman is just silly, and there's nothing comics can do to prevent that amount of public opinion.

So public opinion is a measure of quality now? Right.

I suppose we have different tastes, however, as I like Hawkman, Aquaman, Green Arrow, Ray Palmer, and so on. Funny how that works. To each their own, and all that.

AdamYJ

01-03-2010, 09:26 AM

theXfactor

01-03-2010, 11:10 AM

- I don't think Ivan Reis' art is anything special. Obviously I can recognize the fact that he's a good artist, but his work does nothing for me. It just strikes me as being kind of generic.

I agree. His art is good, but nothing special. He isn't the kind of artist that would make me buy a book based solely on his art.

Uxas

01-03-2010, 12:27 PM

I agree. His art is good, but nothing special

That's just it. Reis' style is very traditional and superhero-y, but he does a great job with it. I think it's kind of the same deal as with Jim Lee; his style is very 90-ish, but he uses it well.

Action Ace

01-03-2010, 02:11 PM

[QUOTE=

- I don't know how unpopular an opinion this is, but I absolutely HATE the whole "Silver Age nostalgia" thing that DC seems to be so in love with lately. Maybe it's because I'm a youngin' and it was all before my time, but I just can't get into it.

Yeah thats been going on for awhile.Ever since mark waid did that jla year 1 mini series.Dont get it twisted it was a great story but that kinda was what started the whole "Silver Age nostalgia" I have nothing but respect for the silver age and all the characters that came out of it but to me its alot like the tv shows you liked as a kid.Yeah Mcguyver was awesome but try and watch it know and its like "holy crap!why did i like this??"

Actually Waid's JLA: Year One being wiped out/ altered is one problem some have with the new/ old JLA origin in this "Silver Age nostalgia" thing.

I'd say the first shot across the bow was Morrison's JLA series. He returned the team to its classic roots after a dozen years of nonsense, added a few modern bells and whistles and it sold...BIG.

I for one am thrilled with the return of the Silver Age cast, concepts such as the multiverse and the complete gutting of Post-Crisis continuity. I wouldn't worry too much about modern "sophisiticated" taste though, there hasn't been any sign of a return to the Silver Age tone or story complexity. However, a current 22 page comic does seem to take about as long to read as an 11 page story from back then with all the splash pages.

I think it's a popular opinion though. Toss out the name of ANY DC hero or team, ask which version you liked or what course it should take for the future and watch the factional fight begin. :evilsmile:

supamike

01-03-2010, 02:54 PM

yeah i could toss out some "modern version" of silverage heroes and rattle on about why they are better but i cant type that fast so ill just save it for the shop or the next time im at a con.

The Lucky One

01-03-2010, 08:09 PM

In my teenage years, I vastly preferred Alan Scott's '90s costume to his original uniform. In fact, I'd say it's only within the last 5 years or so that I've seen the light.

I've liked maybe... half of what I've read of Grant Morrison's stuff? Some of it I liked immensely (Animal Man, JLA), some fairly well (Arkham Asylum), and some I thought was nearly unreadable (his recent Batman run). In general, the more editorial restraint he's under, the better I like his stuff.

I thought The Judas Contract, the X-Men crossover one-shot, and the JLA/Titans miniseries were fairly good, Terror of Trigon was... decent, and I can't think of a single other Teen Titans story I've liked. (To be fair, I haven't read "Who Is Donna Troy?") If I could swap out the entire current Teen Titans series for two extra issues of Young Justice, scientific devices would not be capable of measuring how fast that would happen.

-D

dmore454

01-03-2010, 08:57 PM

I absolutely love Superman Blue. Seriously. Don't laugh, I'm not joking. One of the first comics I read was like the first sixty or so issues of the Morrison JLA, which I borrowed from a friend. The thing that struck me the most about it when I read it was the balls i knew it must have took to make that much of a change to the character, and they were actually doing a good job. I also loved th new character design, the idea of enrgy powers actually makes more sense to me (and much more easy to quantify), and there were some seriously ba shots of him in that JLA run. His DC Universe classics figure (along with the red version) are the most cherished items in my figure collection. He's probably my favorite incarnation of Superman, the next ones being Earth-2, the Eradicator, and the Cyborg (whose original costume rocked, but Sinestro Corp version sucked). And also, I think Geoff Johns might be a little overrated considering he obviously knew nothing about the JLI's history (seriously, Max killing Ted?).

thehod

01-03-2010, 11:05 PM

I've liked maybe... half of what I've read of Grant Morrison's stuff? Some of it I liked immensely (Animal Man, JLA), some fairly well (Arkham Asylum), and some I thought was nearly unreadable (his recent Batman run). In general, the more editorial restraint he's under, the better I like his stuff.

I don't think that's entirely correct about Grant. His best work was Zenith for 2000AD, and I'm fairly sure that there was very little editorial control on that. In fact the copyright muddle that resulted from it has meant that the series hasn't been reprinted despite its critical and popular success.

I just think he can be a little hit and miss at times.

pariah-1972

01-03-2010, 11:34 PM

I like Grant Morrison's early vertigo stuff better than his recent stuff which is hit or miss.

another_version

01-03-2010, 11:48 PM

I like Grant Morrison's early vertigo stuff better than his recent stuff which is hit or miss.

Have to agree with this. Not that his recent stuff is hit or miss, because I am enjoying all of it, but I enjoy his early Vertigo books far better.

hondobrode

01-04-2010, 12:26 AM

Yes, I completely agree with the previous poster who said they're pissed that DC didn't completely reboot their entire line after the COIE. I've liked a lot of what they've done, but honestly, it would be the coolest thing ever if someone did that.

Keep the good, never ever bring up the crap that was horrible (50's rainbow Batman, lots of Wonder Woman Golden Age stories), and reboot the entire DCU instead of making more problems just tweaking things like Silver Age JLA, Hawkman, Aquaman, LSH, etc.

Seven_Ride

01-04-2010, 12:54 AM

I'd say the first shot across the bow was Morrison's JLA series. He returned the team to its classic roots after a dozen years of nonsense, added a few modern bells and whistles and it sold...BIG.

I for one am thrilled with the return of the Silver Age cast, concepts such as the multiverse and the complete gutting of Post-Crisis continuity. I wouldn't worry too much about modern "sophisiticated" taste though, there hasn't been any sign of a return to the Silver Age tone or story complexity. However, a current 22 page comic does seem to take about as long to read as an 11 page story from back then with all the splash pages.You hit the nail exactly on the head.

They don't tell stories in the STYLE of the Silver Age, or Golden Age. They just take the old concepts and characters, and update them for a modern audience.

DC and Marvel have been doing this since at LEAST Morrison's JLA, and there are elements of revivalism that date back to the 80s.

The REAL issue here is that it's now the 90s fans turn to see THEIR era put through the same sort of revisionism fans dealt with in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc.

hondobrode

01-04-2010, 01:01 AM

You are so right.

The Silver Age had some great concepts, though some of the execution wasn't always the best.

Some of that 90's stuff was cool. As someone else stated, there's been good and bad in every era.

Jabroniville

01-04-2010, 04:02 AM

Well, to be fair, he has more than the power of flight to his character.

Some moderate healing powers, right? And that magic-esque Nth Metal weaponry (whatever the plot demanded). Most of it wasn't too big a deal or made him much beyond peak human, I don't think.

Moreover, you're using only Johns' interpretation in your reasoning, so it's possible you just don't like the take. Or the character, but for the sake of argument, keep that in mind.

This is a pretty good point. Of course, I have ONLY read Johns' take on the character for the most part (maybe Tomasi and some League-based stuff as well...), since he re-introduced him in JSA, used him all throughout, and wrote his solo book for a good long time. So it's kind of fair to judge the character based off of that (and considering what Hawkman's reputation was, vis-a-vis "always cancelled guy" or "That guy who never got his own solo book", I don't think he was too much better off before).

So public opinion is a measure of quality now? Right.

I suppose we have different tastes, however, as I like Hawkman, Aquaman, Green Arrow, Ray Palmer, and so on. Funny how that works. To each their own, and all that.

It's not that it's a measure of quality. I'm sure a great writer could take the least popular character in history and make a great story out of it. The issue is the fact that Aquaman is such a JOKE to most people (his name is a punchline- just mention him to any person you know and they'll probably at least smirk) that any book, movie or TV series featuring him just looks silly, and he can't be taken seriously. This affects the perception of the work, the sales, and has an instant gun to it's head in terms of interest. Imagine if a Justice League movie were to come out, and they announce AQUAMAN... you'd have instant snickering from any audience, and it would poison the work's success. That's what I was going for. The character may not necessarily be bad, but his persona is too badly damaged in the public eye.

dmore454

01-04-2010, 07:13 PM

Some moderate healing powers, right? And that magic-esque Nth Metal weaponry (whatever the plot demanded). Most of it wasn't too big a deal or made him much beyond peak human, I don't think.

This is a pretty good point. Of course, I have ONLY read Johns' take on the character for the most part (maybe Tomasi and some League-based stuff as well...), since he re-introduced him in JSA, used him all throughout, and wrote his solo book for a good long time. So it's kind of fair to judge the character based off of that (and considering what Hawkman's reputation was, vis-a-vis "always cancelled guy" or "That guy who never got his own solo book", I don't think he was too much better off before).

It's not that it's a measure of quality. I'm sure a great writer could take the least popular character in history and make a great story out of it. The issue is the fact that Aquaman is such a JOKE to most people (his name is a punchline- just mention him to any person you know and they'll probably at least smirk) that any book, movie or TV series featuring him just looks silly, and he can't be taken seriously. This affects the perception of the work, the sales, and has an instant gun to it's head in terms of interest. Imagine if a Justice League movie were to come out, and they announce AQUAMAN... you'd have instant snickering from any audience, and it would poison the work's success. That's what I was going for. The character may not necessarily be bad, but his persona is too badly damaged in the public eye.

I have to agree with this guy; Aquaman is damaged goods. Anybody who takes the character on as a writer is immediatly starting off in the hole because of the public opinion against him; it doesn't matter how good the writing is. What's that old saying? "Don't judge a book by its cover", but sadly, most people do. This is why books like Spider-girl and Blue Beetle get canceled; instead of giving these kind of series' a chance, newbie fans immediatly gravitate toward more established series with "cool" characters that are visually more appealing instead of ones that are constantly the butt of jokes.

thehod

01-04-2010, 11:01 PM

OK, I gotta ask. Maybe its because I'm a Brit and our public is a little less aware of minor league superheroes, but why would public opinion over Aquaman be anything more than "Who?"

I can imagine that there would be a certain amount of tittering over the name, but then again the general public would titter over Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Flash (which in this country is either the name of a floor cleaner, or what dirty old men wearing nothing but mucky overcoats do), Blue Beetle, etc, etc.

Hell, Iron Man wasn't well known by the general public, so why should Aquaman be?

Jabroniville

01-05-2010, 12:20 AM

Aquaman's actually quite famous in the U.S. & Canada, mainly through a negative pop culture persona. It started with "Superfriends" the cartoon, mostly because he just talked to fish, didn't showcase his super-strength, and was constantly captured (and rescued) every episode because he was the lowest guy on their totem pole. Within a few years, he was famous for being the "Talk to fish" guy, and comedians started mocking him in their act. It's a pretty-near universal trope to make fun of Aquaman in the "Superheroes who got the short end of the stick".

If I had to guess, I'd say he was almost as famous as the elite Spider-Man/Hulk/Batman Rogues-crowd, simply because of the laugh-factor. Must be an English thing that Brits wouldn't have heard of him :).