The Problem of the Greek Gods

[Greg Buchanan]

Apologies if the below is a little dense but it is an issue I always wondered about, and as I saw friendly neighbourhood DC writers on this forum I thought that there would be no harm in going ahead and asking... (I also only started reading comics three years ago, so ignore me if I've missed any great comics which did deal with this and which I have failed to read)

Thinking about Wonder Woman, which features the Greek gods, and of characters like the Spectre and Zauriel, doesn't it strike anyone as a little absurd that the DCU is the way that it is? Forgetting for a moment that a world which hosts numerous aliens and crazily advanced technology appears to resemble our own world on a street-level, the people of this Earth are faced with the proof of the existence of various gods and competing religions. Something like this would be earth-shattering in the real world, but I've never seen a DC story that fully deals with the implications of this.

Further yet, the existence of these multiple pantheons of divine beings seems to necessarily reduce all of their powers below the levels that they should be at, as they can't all be omnipotent. But then, if these gods are just glorified superheroes, why have them at all? Their use seems to be cheapened when they appear as villains that can be fought by mortals. I know that his method is perhaps not applicable to pantheons like that of the Greeks, and you can't have Gods destroy the universe every week, but I think that Grant Morrison's approach to this in Final Crisis was pretty spot on, having these New Gods incarnate as terrifying, almost unseen beings who have an awesome impact. There might have been mistakes made in that series, and parts could have been better, but it was a great and mature approach to the divine.

Now, on the other end of the spectrum, I don't think that the gods should be ignored with regards to Wonder Woman: her mythic heritage is her source of grandeur, her Krypton and her Crime Alley. I just wonder if something more could be done with the gods.

[aegisbearer]

Greg,

I think that Gail plans on addressing this, since we have yet to see the Ichor return since they brought the gods back to Olympus. But, the gods as depicted by Perez seemed to be the best way to portray them for Diana since they are her pantheon and, after all, it's her book. True, the DCU has Zauriel and the Spectre whose focus is largely Judeo-Christian, which would be incongruous to the Olympian gods, but don't we all believe in our own "higher power"? Isn't the G-d of the Jews different from that of Christians? Don't Muslims believe in Allah? Although those three faiths share a monotheistic core, each G-d is represented differently. My Jewish beliefs in G-d certainly don't diminish a Muslim's belief in Allah. Gods function largely as their worshippers believe they do, and I don't think they should all be omnipotent either. But, Diana's gods should be omnipotent on Themyscira, or perhaps in ancient shrines in Greece once devoted to them.

As you said, the gods can't destroy the universe every week, but their influence should be seen through their believers' actions. I like the idea of "unseen beings" with "awesome impact", but in Diana's case, her gods are different. History has shown statues of her gods, an anthropomorphic reality embraced by those who study Classical history. No statues or likenesses exist of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim G-d (except Jesus, but He's viewed as the Son of G-d), and having graven images (or pictures), as it were, is forbidden. Therefore, that deific influence would be "unseen".

I would like to see gods appearing in the shadows or in silhouette, perhaps not always seen directly. Or, perhaps their symbols could make an appearance, so when Aphrodite makes her presence known in Wonder Woman's world, we see a white dove nearby, or Athene's presence is known by an owl, etc. This way, their influence is recognized without overdoing the anthropomorphic image of a superhero/god.

[4PointOh]

Hi, Greg!

Yours is a remarkable observation. I, too, wondered what faith would look like in the DCU. To me, a stance like Mister Terrific's makes a ton of sense. Here he is on the Justice Society with beings like Dr. Fate, Green Lantern and Spectre--who have powers that can rightfully be described as godlike. He's come face to face with the Guardians of the Universe, the Anti-Monitor, Superboy Prime, Highfather, Darkseid, Neron, and Gog. Who's to say Allah, Jehovah, Yaweh, Zeus, Satan, etc. aren't just other, perhaps more powerful, super-beings?

What could possible make God "God" in a universe filled with "god-like" beings? And why should anyone believe in "one true God" given what is witnessed on a day-to-day basis in the DCU?

[aegisbearer]

Hi, Greg!

Yours is a remarkable observation. I, too, wondered what faith would look like in the DCU. To me, a stance like Mister Terrific's makes a ton of sense. Here he is on the Justice Society with beings like Dr. Fate, Green Lantern and Spectre--who have powers that can rightfully be described as godlike. He's come face to face with the Guardians of the Universe, the Anto-Monitor, Superboy Prime, Highfather, Darkseid, Neron, and Gog. Who's to say Allah, Jehovah, Yaweh, Zeus, Satan, etc. aren't just other super-beings?

What could possible make God "God" in a universe filled with "god-like" beings? And why should anyone believe in "one true God" given what is witnessed on a day-to-day basis in the DCU?

Bobby, so true. What sets G-d apart from those other "god-like" beings? We've seen powerful individuals in comicdom create and destroy life. I think what sets those other beings apart from the quintessential higher power of the Bible and Quran is that those others can be seen and interacted with... the Judeo/Christian/Muslim G-d (Allah) cannot.

[lexid523]

I take the Terry Pratchett approach to gods. Gods exist as long as there are people who deeply and truly believe in them, and the more believers, and the stronger their belief, the more powerful the gods.

It's those atheist sayings, "Monotheists are simply atheists of one less god than we are," and "No one today is accused of blasphemy against Thor."

[Sijo]

I have no problem with the gods in the DC universe, because clearly they are not supposed to be like their myths or religions present them in the real world. Yes, they're basically superbeings, who happen to be more powerful than the average superhero. Their myths about their creation of the world or mankind are just that, myths, that they embrace because it gets them worshipers, or maybe they actually believe in them themselves. Most importantly, none of them act truly superior or wiser than humans; they're prey to the same kind of lusts, angers or desires.

Most of the time, this doesn't matter, since superhero stories are just about defeating the bad guy. The religious aspects doesn't come in. With a few exceptions- such as Diana.

This is why the rebooted Wonder Woman's deep faith in her gods struck me as a *bad* idea from the start. OK, it was logical, even moving. But inevitably, we find out that these beings just aren't deserving of her worship. Good lord, Zeus even attempted to RAPE Diana once! And Hermes reduced her to his handmaiden (even if he thought he was doing her a favor), Athena used her as a pawn in her power struggle with Zeus, she's turned into a goddess but is striped of her powers when she tries to be merciful... seriously, shouldn't by this point (especially with all she has seen about the DC Universe since joining the Justice League) Diana decide that, as painful as it may be to admit, these gods don't deserve her faith? I'm not saying the myths should be taken off the WW series entirely, but they shouldn't be presented as the object of Diana's worship anymore.

[aegisbearer]

I have no problem with the gods in the DC universe, because clearly they are not supposed to be like their myths or religions present them in the real world. Yes, they're basically superbeings, who happen to be more powerful than the average superhero. Their myths about their creation of the world or mankind are just that, myths, that they embrace because it gets them worshipers, or maybe they actually believe in them themselves. Most importantly, none of them act truly superior or wiser than humans; they're prey to the same kind of lusts, angers or desires.

Most of the time, this doesn't matter, since superhero stories are just about defeating the bad guy. The religious aspects doesn't come in. With a few exceptions- such as Diana.

This is why the rebooted Wonder Woman's deep faith in her gods struck me as a *bad* idea from the start. OK, it was logical, even moving. But inevitably, we find out that these beings just aren't deserving of her worship. Good lord, Zeus even attempted to RAPE Diana once! And Hermes reduced her to his handmaiden (even if he thought he was doing her a favor), Athena used her as a pawn in her power struggle with Zeus, she's turned into a goddess but is striped of her powers when she tries to be merciful... seriously, shouldn't by this point (especially with all she has seen about the DC Universe since joining the Justice League) Diana decide that, as painful as it may be to admit, these gods don't deserve her faith? I'm not saying the myths should be taken off the WW series entirely, but they shouldn't be presented as the object of Diana's worship anymore.

My fondest hope, Sijo, is that the gods will return to their grandeur where they are Diana's because they DO deserve her faith. They're an important part of her mythos.

[4PointOh]

seriously, shouldn't by this point (especially with all she has seen about the DC Universe since joining the Justice League) Diana decide that, as painful as it may be to admit, these gods don't deserve her faith? I'm not saying the myths should be taken off the WW series entirely, but they shouldn't be presented as the object of Diana's worship anymore.

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/32/l_5a30f4ecc869484887e8bc00d48364f3.jpg

[CaptainCanada]

The gods (or, at least, the clutch she worships) has always been cleaned up a bit in order to make them palatable to modern audiences. Zeus, for example, isn't normally considered a patron of hers, though he's still the All-Father (of course, how Zeus is presented itself varies; he was quite innocuous in Byrne's run, for example; other writers have presented him as a more complex figure).

It's an important part of the character, though, that she has genuine religion and gods whose designs she has to deal with (Rucka did such a great job presenting that; one of my favourite things about his run).

[AaronJ]

True, the DCU has Zauriel and the Spectre whose focus is largely Judeo-Christian, which would be incongruous to the Olympian gods, but don't we all believe in our own "higher power"?

No, not particularly. Many of us don't believe in any "higher power." (And no, I'm not going to turn this into a discussion about religion in the real world, promise. Just sayin ...)


Isn't the G-d of the Jews different from that of Christians? Don't Muslims believe in Allah? Although those three faiths share a monotheistic core, each G-d is represented differently.

Same god in each case. Allah is simply the Arabic word for god. Any Arab Christian, for example, would say allah when in her native language when referring to god.

What differs, primarily, is what aspects of god's revelation to man is considered canon.


No statues or likenesses exist of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim G-d (except Jesus, but He's viewed as the Son of G-d), and having graven images (or pictures), as it were, is forbidden. Therefore, that deific influence would be "unseen".

Hmm. Did I not actually visit the Sistine Chapel, the Vatican Museums, the Louvre ... ? (just kidding around with ya ;) )


I would like to see gods appearing in the shadows or in silhouette, perhaps not always seen directly. Or, perhaps their symbols could make an appearance, so when Aphrodite makes her presence known in Wonder Woman's world, we see a white dove nearby, or Athene's presence is known by an owl, etc. This way, their influence is recognized without overdoing the anthropomorphic image of a superhero/god.

The problem with that (and it's not a bad idea at all) is that it would become incredibly difficult, it seems to me, to portray in a comic without getting all expository.

I really, really miss Rucka's modernized portrayal of the gods. :( Aphrodite was a self-absorbed, California sun-bather, Ares a typical jerk-wad playboy, etc. I think it worked so very well.

Also remember that the Greek pantheon were very far from perfect. They suffered from each and every human frailty, whether it be jealousy, wrath, infidelity, rape, envy, and everything else one could imagine.

Of course, the same could be said for Greek "heroes."

[aegisbearer]

No, not particularly. Many of us don't believe in any "higher power." (And no, I'm not going to turn this into a discussion about religion in the real world, promise. Just sayin ...)

diana_fan, I didn't necessarily mean deific higher power. We all ascribe to some higher ideal even if it's not tied to a "god". I would imagine Atheists would hold excellence or honesty as higher ideals. ;)


Same god in each case. Allah is simply the Arabic word for god. Any Arab Christian, for example, would say allah when in her native language when referring to god.

What differs, primarily, is what aspects of god's revelation to man is considered canon.

I beg to differ a little. I don't believe that Allah is my G-d, per se, but I do think He is a face of the monotheistic figure Judaism, Islam, and Christianity espouse as their G-d.


Hmm. Did I not actually visit the Sistine Chapel, the Vatican Museums, the Louvre ... ? (just kidding around with ya ;) )

I know. ;) But those representations of G-d (not Jesus) aren't sanctioned by any church/synagogue. They're an artist representation.


The problem with that (and it's not a bad idea at all) is that it would become incredibly difficult, it seems to me, to portray in a comic without getting all expository.

Maybe. A carefully worded footnote or artistic rendering could eliminate excessive exposition.


I really, really miss Rucka's modernized portrayal of the gods. :( Aphrodite was a self-absorbed, California sun-bather, Ares a typical jerk-wad playboy, etc. I think it worked so very well.

Also remember that the Greek pantheon were very far from perfect. They suffered from each and every human frailty, whether it be jealousy, wrath, infidelity, rape, envy, and everything else one could imagine.

Of course, the same could be said for Greek "heroes."

Yes, I think that is quite true.

[AaronJ]

diana_fan, I didn't necessarily mean deific higher power. We all ascribe to some higher ideal even if it's not tied to a "god". I would imagine Atheists would hold excellence or honesty as higher ideals. ;)

Hmm. OK, fair enough. But I still think there's a big difference between saying "people should be honest," and "there is some unseen, omnipotent, omniscient force that has revealed aspects of the truth of the universe to particular prophets through history."


I beg to differ a little. I don't believe that Allah is my G-d, per se, but I do think He is a face of the monotheistic figure Judaism, Islam, and Christianity espouse as their G-d.

Well, I'm no theologian, that's for sure.


I know. ;) But those representations of G-d (not Jesus) aren't sanctioned by any church/synagogue. They're an artist representation.

Pope Julius II may disagree with you, on that. ;) Well, if he hadn't died 400-some years ago, that is.



Maybe. A carefully worded footnote or artistic rendering could eliminate excessive exposition.

Possibly.

[MinaRho1]

I have no problem with the gods in the DC universe, because clearly they are not supposed to be like their myths or religions present them in the real world. Yes, they're basically superbeings, who happen to be more powerful than the average superhero. Their myths about their creation of the world or mankind are just that, myths, that they embrace because it gets them worshipers, or maybe they actually believe in them themselves. Most importantly, none of them act truly superior or wiser than humans; they're prey to the same kind of lusts, angers or desires. .

This is why the rebooted Wonder Woman's deep faith in her gods struck me as a *bad* idea from the start. OK, it was logical, even moving. But inevitably, we find out that these beings just aren't deserving of her worship. Good lord, Zeus even attempted to RAPE Diana once! And Hermes reduced her to his handmaiden (even if he thought he was doing her a favor), Athena used her as a pawn in her power struggle with Zeus, she's turned into a goddess but is striped of her powers when she tries to be merciful... seriously,.

I agree. I love mythology, and I'm all for having more Athena in the series. (I do disagree that she soley uses Diana as a pawn. Diana is her champion and clearly has great affection for her-- I almost became a Diana/Athena shipper at one point, but that's getting off topic.

The hilarious thing about the greek gods is that they can be horrifying, vengeful, but also flawed, short-sighted and petty. I don't think their mishaps and ill-treatment of Diana at times is very out of character. The greek gods are like us, but in much bigger scale.

I don't think the contemporary greeks loved or REALLY exalted their gods. It was more of a "don't smoosh me" sort of thing.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w150/veggiedeggie/funny-pictures-cat-does-not-want-to.jpg
I don't see the greek gods as anything more or less than what they are. Ridiculously powerful forces of nature not above revenge and squabbling. I actually think its great that the reboot depicted her as a babe in the woods with unquestioning love for her gods. Over the decades she's grown up. She's past all that. She gains a new perspective and renounces them. She's more mature than they are. She was very much a child drilled at a young age not to question and to respect them. But now they're the children.

Hermes says so himself "they're not worthy of her love."
I say its time the Gods earned her respect back.

[Gordon Smith]

If I may be permitted to introduce a momentary digression to ask a silly question? Does Wonder Woman interact, or has she ever interacted with members of other pantheons?

[AaronJ]

If I may be permitted to introduce a momentary digression to ask a silly question? Does Wonder Woman interact, or has she ever interacted with members of other pantheons?

Definitely. Just off the top of my head, there's the recent interaction with multiple members of the (a?) Polynesian pantheon. There's also the 1,000 years she and Superman spent in Asgard, after being recruited by Thor.

There are certainly other instances.

[MinaRho1]

Definitely. Just off the top of my head, there's the recent interaction with multiple members of the (a?) Polynesian pantheon. There's also the 1,000 years she and Superman spent in Asgard, after being recruited by Thor.

There are certainly other instances.

Not only Diana, but at one point Hippolyta?
Off the top of my head when DIana needs to rescue Hippolyta she goes around different gods' realms to ask for their help to breach the mystical barrier around the island. The norse gods flat out refuse to help. As do the egyptian gods. One of them even says "To be truthful, I never liked your mother," so some sort of bad blood was between them, which I found hilarious.

[AaronJ]

Not only Diana, but at one point Hippolyta?
Off the top of my head when DIana needs to rescue Hippolyta she goes around different gods' realms to ask for their help to breach the mystical barrier around the island. The norse gods flat out refuse to help. As do the egyptian gods. One of them even says "To be truthful, I never liked your mother," so some sort of bad blood was between them, which I found hilarious.

Yeah, I laughed out lout hard at that! :)

[Superbeast]

If I may be permitted to introduce a momentary digression to ask a silly question? Does Wonder Woman interact, or has she ever interacted with members of other pantheons?

She's dealt with the Spectre and was on the JLA team with Zauriel. She's worked with the New Gods before on the JLA too.

[Gordon Smith]

Definitely. Just off the top of my head, there's the recent interaction with multiple members of the (a?) Polynesian pantheon. There's also the 1,000 years she and Superman spent in Asgard, after being recruited by Thor.

There are certainly other instances.

Thanks. It's been many a long year since I last read Wonder Woman so I have only a very spotty knowledge of the character.

[MinaRho1]

Yeah, I laughed out lout hard at that! :)

Which reminds me! Don't the norse gods technically owe Diana (and clark) a huge favor? They didn't have to help them out in that 1000 year battle, but they did. And then Diana asks for their help just a few years later, and they're all "No. Don't feel like helping you, but good luck."


UGH! Stupid fickle gods!

[Greg Buchanan]

Thanks for all the replies guys, shall reply in turn..


True, the DCU has Zauriel and the Spectre whose focus is largely Judeo-Christian, which would be incongruous to the Olympian gods, but don't we all believe in our own "higher power"? Isn't the G-d of the Jews different from that of Christians? Don't Muslims believe in Allah? Although those three faiths share a monotheistic core, each G-d is represented differently. My Jewish beliefs in G-d certainly don't diminish a Muslim's belief in Allah. Gods function largely as their worshippers believe they do, and I don't think they should all be omnipotent either. But, Diana's gods should be omnipotent on Themyscira, or perhaps in ancient shrines in Greece once devoted to them.

Oh, I agree, my main qualm is that the real-world co-existence of all these religions is made possible by a complete lack of verifiable scientific evidence as to the existence of their gods (this isn't to attack anyone's religion, as most faith is based on just that, faith beyond science). In the DCU there is no doubting the existence of such beings as the Greek pantheon.

I guess it is the same argument people try and use to say that Batman should be off in his own universe and not interact with the other superheroes - it seems to make each hero less important, the more heroes there are. I don't buy this, however, as I think there is story potential in these interactions provided there is a context for them. There is little attempt to resolve the religious question, and sadly most answers likely to be written into the DCU would probably involve ridiculously complicated retcons (like the Braniac and Starro retcons that have occurred, the "oh this wasn't the REAL villain" motif - not an attack on writers who have used this, but it would add to the problem that it would attempt to solve).

With regard to the idea of the gods being "unseen", I think you're on the money with the idea of hinting at them at points. Something I'm finding very fascinating in my reading at the moment (going through a big set of Greek tragedies I bought the other day, had to lug them about 20 miles, eep) is how different the old epics were to the old tragic plays - in the epics you'd have gods like Zeus actually descend or speak and be a regular part of the action, like in modern comics, whilst in the tragedies the deities would be seen far less and when they were, it would be a matter of some importance, and even then I have not yet come across a Greek tragedy where Zeus actually appears in the flesh. It's funny, I think the gods should be an important part of Wonder Woman's universe but I think they shouldn't be used non-stop: in the Orestaia there was this brilliant "oh-shi-!" moment when Apollo, who had just been referenced in the speeches of the main characters of the first two plays, appears after about a thousand lines without any build-up to his appearance, standing beside the fallen Orestes (who is being pursued by haunting Furies) saying that he will never leave him and will stand by him always. That kind of grandeur is what would be wonderful to read. You can go the way of making them nasty superbeings or distant abstract entities, or you can take the middle road and make them have some superhumanity, some nobility even in their horrible actions - I guess sort of like the Endless from Gaiman's Sandman, but less distant.


Hi, Greg!

Yours is a remarkable observation. I, too, wondered what faith would look like in the DCU. To me, a stance like Mister Terrific's makes a ton of sense. Here he is on the Justice Society with beings like Dr. Fate, Green Lantern and Spectre--who have powers that can rightfully be described as godlike. He's come face to face with the Guardians of the Universe, the Anti-Monitor, Superboy Prime, Highfather, Darkseid, Neron, and Gog. Who's to say Allah, Jehovah, Yaweh, Zeus, Satan, etc. aren't just other, perhaps more powerful, super-beings?

What could possible make God "God" in a universe filled with "god-like" beings? And why should anyone believe in "one true God" given what is witnessed on a day-to-day basis in the DCU?

Hi! :) I thought of Mister Terrific also, soon after writing my post - the scene in Infinite Crisis, right, where he's in the church? (underrated scene that it was!) The Judeo-Christian God is quite problematic, you're right, as there isn't really a mythic tradition associated with God that facilitates this sort of storytelling (Milton's Paradise Lost excluded! mystery plays were good too, some of them). I guess the idea of an "over-"God, actually omnipotent, could have a place in the DCU that would fit if it was completely ambiguous and unknown, and could maintain that sort of doubt over the existence of the divine that most readers could relate to. That's one of the thorny issues that would need to be addressed actually - how this would fit with the Greek gods (in my opinion, the only essential 'gods' in the DCU apart from a "God"-with-a-capital-G and the New Gods). But even then, the Greek gods were never really what we view as omnipotent in a modern sense. There were always forces that were on some level unknowable to them or more primal, such as the Furies in the Orestaia who call them "young things".


I take the Terry Pratchett approach to gods. Gods exist as long as there are people who deeply and truly believe in them, and the more believers, and the stronger their belief, the more powerful the gods.

It's those atheist sayings, "Monotheists are simply atheists of one less god than we are," and "No one today is accused of blasphemy against Thor."

I could go along with this, depending upon how it was depicting - there's even sort of a precedent for it, will ballsy Orestes attempting to bargain with Zeus that he'd provide him with more worship if aided in his murder of Clytaemnestra.


This is why the rebooted Wonder Woman's deep faith in her gods struck me as a *bad* idea from the start. OK, it was logical, even moving. But inevitably, we find out that these beings just aren't deserving of her worship. Good lord, Zeus even attempted to RAPE Diana once! And Hermes reduced her to his handmaiden (even if he thought he was doing her a favor), Athena used her as a pawn in her power struggle with Zeus, she's turned into a goddess but is striped of her powers when she tries to be merciful... seriously, shouldn't by this point (especially with all she has seen about the DC Universe since joining the Justice League) Diana decide that, as painful as it may be to admit, these gods don't deserve her faith? I'm not saying the myths should be taken off the WW series entirely, but they shouldn't be presented as the object of Diana's worship anymore.

I think that's more the fault of how the Gods have been presented, and the way Wonder Woman's interactions with them have been depicted. Not saying the stories were bad, but it does, as you say, back the mythos into a corner with regard to what can be done next. I need to think on that and will give a more proper reply later Sijo!


Of course, the same could be said for Greek "heroes."

Hah, I saw Troilus and Cressida the other day and thought to myself that the heroes of the Trojan War sort of resembled Tony's crew in The Sopranos. It's the sad times they lived in, isn't it.

[AaronJ]

Which reminds me! Don't the norse gods technically owe Diana (and clark) a huge favor? They didn't have to help them out in that 1000 year battle, but they did. And then Diana asks for their help just a few years later, and they're all "No. Don't feel like helping you, but good luck."


UGH! Stupid fickle gods!

Yeah, no kidding! *grr*

[AaronJ]

Hah, I saw Troilus and Cressida the other day and thought to myself that the heroes of the Trojan War sort of resembled Tony's crew in The Sopranos. It's the sad times they lived in, isn't it.

Heh! :)

Yeah, it's a completely different cultural zeitgeist, where the Achilles of the Iliad is considered a hero.

Today, we consider heroism to be something that resembles someone helping others at his own expense (more or less). In the Greek epics, heroism is (again, more or less) an expression of one's greatness, in everything from beauty to skill as a warrior, etc.

[MinaRho1]

Heh! :)

Yeah, it's a completely different cultural zeitgeist, where the Achilles of the Iliad is considered a hero.

Today, we consider heroism to be something that resembles someone helping others at his own expense (more or less). In the Greek epics, heroism is (again, more or less) an expression of one's greatness, in everything from beauty to skill as a warrior, etc.

Diana_fan I think I love you.
Heroism is one of those concepts that have changed in modern times. Like in ancient times "wisdom" just meant practical knowledge whereas now people think of wisdom as great ephipanies, spiritual insight and whatnot. Different times, different context.

[lexid523]

Today, we consider heroism to be something that resembles someone helping others at his own expense (more or less). In the Greek epics, heroism is (again, more or less) an expression of one's greatness, in everything from beauty to skill as a warrior, etc.

Hell, the Greeks considered humility a weakness at best, and an insult to the gods at worst. If the gods made you great in some way, you were honor-bound to exploit it to your community's and your own advantage. You were allowed to brag about it, just as long as you gave the gods their due (that's where Odysseus fucked up). Christianity came in and turned things in Western society around so that humility became the expected behavior and pride became a sin.

[Retro315]

While nobody has expressly defined this - within the DCU, the various pantheons of the Gods seem to act as "patrons" - that is, they concern themselves only with those people who believe in them and actively seek the things like artifacts, legends and places identified with them.

Because of any given pantheon's diminished role in the world of the mono-theistic religion (after all, it can be argued that Christians, Jews and Muslims worship roughly the same God with a capital G, Jehovah, Allah - but differ on the fine print), when a rogue god like Ares or Poseidon over-exerts his presence out of the Greek sphere of influence and into another region - it's that much more of a crisis.

A crisis which requires a hero, which in the modern DCU is either Wonder Woman kicking Ares' ass, or Aquaman kicking Poseidon's, all the way back to Olympus.

[Gail Simone]

Wow, great thread!

I prefer to let the stuff in the book speak for itself, but Diana is pretty clearly tired of Zeus and the machinations of the gods.

[Wonder Watcher]

Which reminds me! Don't the norse gods technically owe Diana (and clark) a huge favor? They didn't have to help them out in that 1000 year battle, but they did. And then Diana asks for their help just a few years later, and they're all "No. Don't feel like helping you, but good luck."


UGH! Stupid fickle gods!
Must've been that other Norse Pantheon, the one that existed only in Clark and Diana's heads when they both dreamt they were in a 1,000 yr battle one night.

[Wonder Watcher]

Even in the DCU it's easy to disbelieve the existence of God or gods as there's no real proof any of these beings are 'Gods' in the religous sense. There is just an increasing scale of superpowerful entities in the universe some of whom claim themselves to be 'gods'. They certainly have god-like power but that's going to cut little ice on an Earth that's experienced all the events the DCU Earth has.

[loneangel74]

Don’t forget that the DCU has always had an over-God, which has been referred to a lot since the original Crisis on Infinite Earths where the “hand” ignited the universe. Even in Final Crisis, Metron (sp?) mentioned the idea of seeing the creation of new gods that would eventually give way to new gods as we know them in the DCU. So there is that underlying bit of ambiguous reference to a supreme deity that started it all and still influences events through agents such as the Spectre. For an interesting take on such thinking, you should really pick up Final Crisis: Revelation by Greg Rucka. It speaks of the same setup.

Of course, in the DCU you cannot have such an omnipotent entity directly operating or it would negate the need for super powered heroes. I think that is why the Spectre is always “crippled” early on in an event.

Regards,

[3D Master]

Same god in each case. Allah is simply the Arabic word for god. Any Arab Christian, for example, would say allah when in her native language when referring to god.

What differs, primarily, is what aspects of god's revelation to man is considered canon.

Not really. Allah and the Christian god, and it's debatable which one is the Jewish one, are two very different deities, in fact, they are opposites, enemies even. Oh, these days religions and holy books claim they are the same, but they are most definitely not.

While the Christian god, and arguably the Jewish god since about 500 BC is a god of good, of forgiveness, of freedom, of letting you lead your life the way you see fit; Allah, like the ancient testament's god, is a god of pain, punishment, suffering, of worshiping on your knees or get tortured for an eternity, a jealous, sickening psychopath.

To understand this, is to follow the history of the two gods, I suppose it best to work our way backwards:

Allah (The Powerful One), Al, (the Biblical) El, Ellil, and ultimately the Sumerian Enlil; the sky god, the god of the moon, the god of the volcano, of the storm, of the lightning bolt, the destroyer, and thus also Zeus, Jupiter, and the Egyptian Seth - the Egyptian Satan, the Evil One, bringer of the flood.

His enemy, his opposite, is Yahwheh, Ya (which is the actual name given in the bible if you understand the word pun), Eya, and ultimately the Sumerian Enki. He's the god of the Earth, the god of the Abyss, the god of the underworld, god of the sun, guardian of the light, protector of man, vanquisher of death, bringer of life, creator of mankind. And thus also, the Egyptian Ra and Osiris, the Greek Hades, the Roman Saturn, the Pagan Cernunnos, He Who Wears the Horned Crown, the Horned One.

And these two have a very long rivalry indeed, one that echoes till this day. Enlil came up with the idea for humanity, as (the biblical El even) said, "Let us create..." Enlil's idea of humanity was just another animal, designed to be on their knees and worship the gods, and later just him. To have no self-worth and be completely subservient, a slave.

Enki on the other hand, as he created the first humans, he looked upon them as his children. A father wants his children to excel, to surpass him even. So Enki made them in his image, sentient, self-aware, able to reason and grow, and educated them. Enlil didn't like it, they weren't good enough, aka, the weren't on their knees worshiping, and he recognized the potential to grow even beyond the gods, beyond him, and thus feared humanity.

And so he and like-minded gods sent the flood, to wipe humanity out and start fresh; but Enki went to Earth, and from behind a hedge told a favorite of his what was going to happen, one who we called Noah, warning him, and so he built an Ark.

Freedom versus submission.

And the war between them rages today, if not literally, then at least metaphorically. For Moses folded all the other gods into Ya/Enki, the one presiding over light and creation, the god of the Earth. As the Pagan Christianity gets added into the mix, and the Europeans, pagans all and thus still followers of the Horned One, Enki, Ya(wheh) planted even more of their freedom, and light into it, the divide was final.

Meanwhile, around Moses, all around the Middle East, there were many tribes and cultures who's ancestors harkened back to the same culture as Abraham. However, they kept following El and steadily folded the other gods into him. They would finally get their prophet Mohammed by which time the name El morphed into Allah.

The god of Christianity and later and present day Judaism gained the principal characteristics of Enki, while the god of Islam gained its principal characteristics of Enlil; even the name Islam (meaning submission) tells you of this. Freedom versus submission, reaching for the stars versus on your knees in the dirt singing praise and worship - the two, could be no more different.

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

I've mentioned this before, but one of the things that annoys me is when the writers forget Wonder Woman's gods are supposed to be... Well, gods.

I've no trouble with Gail's current arc with Zeus, that's not the problem. Lord knows we'd all love to punch God at some point, and Zeus is just such a schmuck... But it does bother me when they're presented as basically amped-up cosmic entities whom the Amazons worship as gods because they're just daffy little savages who don't know any better.

[ClaudioPozas]

The Greek gods have always been fallible, petty beings with great power. They're, in essence, flawed superheroes.

And even then, they're not immortal, and are still subject to a higher law, that of Destiny. Uranus and Cronus, both arguably mightier than Zeus, fell to the mandates of Destiny and the prophecy of the son replacing the father.

Zeus, for fear of that prophecy, avoided mating with the nymph Tethis and gave her to a mortal husband. From that union came Achilles. Just imagine what sort of being would've been born of a union between Zeus and Tethis!

[ClaudioPozas]

Not really. Allah and the Christian god, and it's debatable which one is the Jewish one, are two very different deities, in fact, they are opposites, enemies even. Oh, these days religions and holy books claim they are the same, but they are most definitely not.

While the Christian god, and arguably the Jewish god since about 500 BC is a god of good, of forgiveness, of freedom, of letting you lead your life the way you see fit; Allah, like the ancient testament's god, is a god of pain, punishment, suffering, of worshiping on your knees or get tortured for an eternity, a jealous, sickening psychopath.

To understand this, is to follow the history of the two gods, I suppose it best to work our way backwards:

Allah (The Powerful One), Al, (the Biblical) El, Ellil, and ultimately the Sumerian Enlil; the sky god, the god of the moon, the god of the volcano, of the storm, of the lightning bolt, the destroyer, and thus also Zeus, Jupiter, and the Egyptian Seth - the Egyptian Satan, the Evil One, bringer of the flood.

His enemy, his opposite, is Yahwheh, Ya (which is the actual name given in the bible if you understand the word pun), Eya, and ultimately the Sumerian Enki. He's the god of the Earth, the god of the Abyss, the god of the underworld, god of the sun, guardian of the light, protector of man, vanquisher of death, bringer of life, creator of mankind. And thus also, the Egyptian Ra and Osiris, the Greek Hades, the Roman Saturn, the Pagan Cernunnos, He Who Wears the Horned Crown, the Horned One.

And these two have a very long rivalry indeed, one that echoes till this day. Enlil came up with the idea for humanity, as (the biblical El even) said, "Let us create..." Enlil's idea of humanity was just another animal, designed to be on their knees and worship the gods, and later just him. To have no self-worth and be completely subservient, a slave.

Enki on the other hand, as he created the first humans, he looked upon them as his children. A father wants his children to excel, to surpass him even. So Enki made them in his image, sentient, self-aware, able to reason and grow, and educated them. Enlil didn't like it, they weren't good enough, aka, the weren't on their knees worshiping, and he recognized the potential to grow even beyond the gods, beyond him, and thus feared humanity.

And so he and like-minded gods sent the flood, to wipe humanity out and start fresh; but Enki went to Earth, and from behind a hedge told a favorite of his what was going to happen, one who we called Noah, warning him, and so he built an Ark.

Freedom versus submission.

And the war between them rages today, if not literally, then at least metaphorically. For Moses folded all the other gods into Ya/Enki, the one presiding over light and creation, the god of the Earth. As the Pagan Christianity gets added into the mix, and the Europeans, pagans all and thus still followers of the Horned One, Enki, Ya(wheh) planted even more of their freedom, and light into it, the divide was final.

Meanwhile, around Moses, all around the Middle East, there were many tribes and cultures who's ancestors harkened back to the same culture as Abraham. However, they kept following El and steadily folded the other gods into him. They would finally get their prophet Mohammed by which time the name El morphed into Allah.

The god of Christianity and later and present day Judaism gained the principal characteristics of Enki, while the god of Islam gained its principal characteristics of Enlil; even the name Islam (meaning submission) tells you of this. Freedom versus submission, reaching for the stars versus on your knees in the dirt singing praise and worship - the two, could be no more different.
Wow. You are so wrong in so many levels.

For starters, the word "Satan" come from the Arabic "Shaytan", which means "The Adversary".

Set was never the bringer of the flood to Egyptians, he was the red god of fire, of the desert and of the lightning. He had as much claim to the throne of the Ennead as Horus, which led to the battle between both of them and the trial before the eyes of Ra.

The muslim Allah is the same god as Yaweh/Elohim and the Christian God (since the Christian God was the father of Jesus, who was a Jew). Muslims consider Jesus to be one of the prophets, like Moses, who came before Mohammed, but whose message of the words of God was misunderstood, which led to God sending the angel Gabriel (Jibrail in Arabic) to recite the Quran to Mohammed. To keep the word of God from being misunderstood again, the translation of the Quran to other languages is forbidden without the original text being annexed.

[3D Master]

Wow. You are so wrong in so many levels.

For starters, the word "Satan" come from the Arabic "Shaytan", which means "The Adversary".

Set was never the bringer of the flood to Egyptians, he was the red god of fire, of the desert and of the lightning. He had as much claim to the throne of the Ennead as Horus, which led to the battle between both of them and the trial before the eyes of Ra.

Which of course doesn't matter. (Not to mention you go on about "so many levels" when all you do is bother with details.) Where the name Satan comes from, also doesn't matter. Seth was Egyptian devil, plain and simple, he was the evil god, the evil one, the same god as Zeus/El/Enlil.


The muslim Allah is the same god as Yaweh/Elohim and the Christian God (since the Christian God was the father of Jesus, who was a Jew). Muslims consider Jesus to be one of the prophets, like Moses, who came before Mohammed, but whose message of the words of God was misunderstood, which led to God sending the angel Gabriel (Jibrail in Arabic) to recite the Quran to Mohammed. To keep the word of God from being misunderstood again, the translation of the Quran to other languages is forbidden without the original text being annexed.

That's what's claimed, as I said, however, it is also untrue if you understand the history of Ya and El and the religions surrounding them, and what lies at their genesis, the battle for humanity's soul between Enlil and Enki - freedom vs submission. Read the Quran and all you get, every single ffing page, "Do this and burn in hell", "Don't do this, and burn in hell." "Slaughter and torture people to death left and right who do not believe as you do." "I have wiped out cities and slaughtered innocent babies before, and I will do it again if you don't do as I say!" Allah is the OT psycho, worse in fact, while Jesus' god is one full of live and let live; to the point that he expects you to treat even criminals with dignity, respect and even compassion.