Cassandra "Cassie" Sandsmark: Do We Love Her or Hate Her?

[Dream Boy]

I'll admit that I wasn't a big Cassie fan when Byrne first introduced her. Didn't hate her either. She was just sorta there. I did like the fact that she wasn't traditionally "hot" though.

But it was her being in Young Justice that really made me a fan. Now, I love her, although I was so ready for her to stop the self-pity and get over Conner already. But overall, I really like Cassie and think she's a more than worthy member of the Wonder clan (adored her mini and especially liked her using the Drusilla alias). And I was a big fan of the jeans/eagle tank costume (a little simple but cool, IMO).

So, what do you guys think about the newest Wonder Girl?

Yay or nay?

[Free-Man]

I like her, though I hate the christmas sweater. But at least she has the bracelets back, and I love that we have a member of the Wonder-clan actually LEADING a team.

http://www.dccomics.com/media/product/1/3/13238_400x600.jpg

[meek?]

I've accepted her as Wonder Girl since I first got introduced to the character in Geoff Johns' TEEN TITANS run. I was still kinda new to the DCU then.

In terms of "loving her" or "hating her" as a character... the jury's still out for me. Stiiiiiill waitin' for her to not be depressed nor pissy. Looks like she's just now comin' around a bit as a TT leader so we'll see how it goes...

And I also don't like that sorority sweater. How does she raise her arms? Xo

Peace.

[rab082154]

I love her as she was in Young Justice. Hated her in Teen Titans, but she's slowly returning to how she was in YJ.

[4PointOh]

I like her conceptually, though I can't say I'm much of a fan of how she's portrayed.

And I'm definitely not a fan of her relationship with Diana, which had been weird, adverserial, and strained most of the time.

[RealWonderman]

LOVE. I love her best when she's with Kara, or when she's dating superboy...would be great to have BOTH. Love her as the TT leader (at least the idea...waiting to see some activity there)

HATE the sweater...give the old red and gold back, or at least the Eagle top...liked that one!

[Dream Boy]

I love that she's the Teen Titans leader too. And I adore her friendships with Kara and Cissie, as well as her rivalry with Rose.

But I agree that she's often had a prickly relationship with Diana, especially recently. I chalk it up to her being in her "terrible teens". :biggrin:

[Dream Boy]

BTW, so glad to see so much dislike for the Christmas sweater (love that description lol). Glad to see that I'm not alone! :tongue:

[MinaRho1]

BTW, so glad to see so much dislike for the Christmas sweater (love that description lol). Glad to see that I'm not alone! :tongue:

Ha! The dc fan community comes up with great terms for the various wonder-wear. x-mas sweater, screaming chicken armor. I'm always delighted.

As for me I love Cassie. I hate the way she's been written in the past few years, but I'm loyal to a fault. I have faith, and dammit, this character has potential. Stop squandering it!

Remember when she was a geek in an archeological club who slept with stuffed animals? where did that awesome girl go? I miss her.

[Mark_S]

Still don't like her due to her actions in Amazon's Attack. If they ever deal with that we'll see.

Mark_S

[Free-Man]

Still don't like her due to her actions in Amazon's Attack. If they ever deal with that we'll see.

Mark_S

What actions? Not choosing to hep her sisters murder innocent people?

[Constantine Drakon]

Loved her in Young Justice.

Hate the character she's become. A complete betrayal of what she was originally, as far as I'm concerned. From geek to "popular girl", complete with shift to midrift-exposing shirts.

[suedenim]

I've always been kind of indifferent to her, and most of the Titans-related characters, actually. Don't love her, but don't mind her being around from time to time either.

[olympichero62]

We hate her...It's the jeans. Her and Superboy need actual costumes.

[cockrumfan]

I've always liked her, except during Infinite Crisis where she just got...uppity. I personally preferred the idea of her having a relationship with Tim Drake more than Superboy, but that was me.

[MinaRho1]

I've always liked her, except during Infinite Crisis where she just got...uppity. I personally preferred the idea of her having a relationship with Tim Drake more than Superboy, but that was me.

I'm a Tim/Steph shipper myself. She had a moment of confusion. Black hair. Blue eyes. And it was dark. ;)

[Simonesays]

I LOVE Cassie and hope that soon she will be able to have her shot (and not just in a future or alternate reality) at being the next WONDER WOMAN!

[supermandy77]

Even though I've really only been reading comics since about the time of 52, I've seen a great deal of progression (or confusion, maybe) from the character. I haven't read the recent mini, but it seems to me like she's trying to balance the idea of being a member of the Wonder family while still being her own person and carving out her own life.

I like that. I've seen her stuggle with who she is, as well as making some serious mistakes along the way. I think it plays into her growth as a character and that's something I always like to see.

[cockrumfan]

I'm a Tim/Steph shipper myself. She had a moment of confusion. Black hair. Blue eyes. And it was dark. ;)
Ah, but the Cassie/Tim relationship allows us to view the Wonder Woman/Batman pairing without complicating those two further. And all those bat boys need someone who can beat them down not just fight them.

[Free-Man]

Ah, but the Cassie/Tim relationship allows us to view the Wonder Woman/Batman pairing without complicating those two further. And all those bat boys need someone who can beat them down not just fight them.

I felt that the Cassie/Tim relationship had a lot of potential, unfortunately RIP made sure we never got to see where it headed. Personally, I think it would've been awesome to have Superboy return home after LOT3Wonly to find his best friend making out with his lover.

[BnL]

I resent that she and her mother were unnecessary carbon copies of Vanessa and Julia Kapatelis. She finally became interesting in YJ, but I still feel more like we're just "stuck" with her at this point, and we just have to make her interesting and relevant to Diana's world.

[MinaRho1]

Ah, but the Cassie/Tim relationship allows us to view the Wonder Woman/Batman pairing without complicating those two further.

I would rather Tim and Cassie not be used to address unfinished business with Diana and Bruce.


And all those bat boys need someone who can beat them down not just fight them.
I think Steph is already pretty qualified to do that. At the very least Tim needs a really good verbal lashing and Steph probably knows him way better anyway.

[shanejayell]

I liked her in Young Justice and the recent mini was good

[cockrumfan]

I would rather Tim and Cassie not be used to address unfinished business with Diana and Bruce.


I think Steph is already pretty qualified to do that. At the very least Tim needs a really good verbal lashing and Steph probably knows him way better anyway.
I agree, but I think at this point we know Bruce and Diana will never go past a certain point, whether its because of another relationship with Catwoman or Steve or if editorial simply refuses to let it happen. Tim and Cassie don't have as many constraints on them as that kind of pairing. Also, I think Steph has lost all moral highground at this point. But besides that, every one of the Bat boys, excluding Jason and Damian, have their Gotham love interest, and their superhero community love interest. I've never been crazy about the Spoiler character in the first place, though.

[Free-Man]

I agree, but I think at this point we know Bruce and Diana will never go past a certain point, whether its because of another relationship with Catwoman or Steve or if editorial simply refuses to let it happen. Tim and Cassie don't have as many constraints on them as that kind of pairing. Also, I think Steph has lost all moral highground at this point. But besides that, every one of the Bat boys, excluding Jason and Damian, have their Gotham love interest, and their superhero community love interest. I've never been crazy about the Spoiler character in the first place, though.

Well, it looks like Geoff is going to nip any potentil for Timssie in the bud.
http://th04.deviantart.net/fs47/300W/f/2009/213/8/c/Adventure_Comics_2_Variant_Cvr_by_manapul.jpg

[DanCMH]

I resent that she and her mother were unnecessary carbon copies of Vanessa and Julia Kapatelis. She finally became interesting in YJ, but I still feel more like we're just "stuck" with her at this point, and we just have to make her interesting and relevant to Diana's world.

Ditto. It's bad enough Vanessa got passed over but then she got the crazy villian treatment.

[cockrumfan]

Well, it looks like Geoff is going to nip any potentil for Timssie in the bud.
I like having the Young Justice group back, and if that means I lose the Tim and Cassie relationship, that's fine. The important thing is that Bart is back, too. I just enjoyed Tim and Cassie's relationship more than her relationship with Conner, but I trust the writers.

[mcolford]

Not a fan.

I always felt she was shoehorned into the storyline after Vanessa and Julia Kapetelis were shuffled offsides. I resented that she suddenly became Wonder Girl. Then she was suddenly off on her own in Young Justice/Teen Titans. I would have liked to have seen her develop in Wonder Woman's own comic for a little longer before heading out on her own.

Michael C.
http://justgiblets.com

[AdamYJ]

Loved her in Young Justice.

Hate the character she's become. A complete betrayal of what she was originally, as far as I'm concerned. From geek to "popular girl", complete with shift to midrift-exposing shirts.

I agree. Cassie was kind of designed to be the "regular girl" superheroine when Byrne created her. Though Byrne disapproved of including her in Young Justice, PAD did a great job and in many ways it was Cassie's personality that grounded the team. They went from being a crazy super-team of boys to a group of friends who happened to be young super-heroes pretty much starting with Cassie and Cissie becoming friends.

The truth is, though, that Cassie's been losing some of that essential "girl next door" quality for a while. Even before YJ ended. The first misstep, I think, was turning her into a demigoddess. The idea that Zeus granted her power because he admired her pluckiness is a better origin in terms of keeping Cassie's "common touch" than having Zeus empower another of his children.

[ScottyQuick]

I loved her in Young Justice, but otherwise I can't STAND her. Her and Donna Troy should go off and have their own little title of boringness.

[scandalsavage]

Hate is such a strong word.

Despise is more along the lines of what I'm thinking.

I do like Donna though -- She's the Erica Kane of DC!

[ryerye17]

I despise her jeans.

[Free-Man]

I like having the Young Justice group back, and if that means I lose the Tim and Cassie relationship, that's fine. The important thing is that Bart is back, too. I just enjoyed Tim and Cassie's relationship more than her relationship with Conner, but I trust the writers.

Yes. The YJ kids are some of my favorite charactes in all of comicdom. I hope Cassie still remains leader of the Titans when Conner and Tim eventually make thier way back.

Again, just find it awesome that she's acually leading the team after yers of playing 2nd banana.

[suedenim]

I loved her in Young Justice, but otherwise I can't STAND her. Her and Donna Troy should go off and have their own little title of boringness.

Heh, I can't argue with that! I have no great animosity for either character, but by the same token, if they disappeared forever, I wouldn't miss 'em.

[Free-Man]

Heh, I can't argue with that! I have no great animosity for either character, but by the same token, if they disappeared forever, I wouldn't miss 'em.

I don't get the OP's desir to see her and Donna go of into their own title of boringness. Aside from a few guest spots here and there, what impact does Cassie have on the Wonder Woman series? At this point, she's a Titan first and foremost.

[mercwiththemouth]

So, what do you guys think about the newest Wonder Girl?

Yay or nay?

I first saw her in Young Justice so I'm a fan of hers dating back to then.
I stopped reading Teen Titans around when GJ stopped writing it so I haven't seen her in much since then.

In any case, I like her.
I saw a miniseries come out for her that I think has been collected as a GN. I'm thinking about getting that.

[suedenim]

I don't get the OP's desir to see her and Donna go of into their own title of boringness. Aside from a few guest spots here and there, what impact does Cassie have on the Wonder Woman series? At this point, she's a Titan first and foremost.

Personally, I just like the notion of a "title of boringness," which would feature all the most boring characters in comics, to serve the niche market that prefers their comics dull.

Not sure what you'd call it. Boring Adventures, maybe, but adventures are too un-boring....

[md62]

Loved her in Young Justice.

Hate the character she's become. A complete betrayal of what she was originally, as far as I'm concerned. From geek to "popular girl", complete with shift to midrift-exposing shirts.

I feel the same way.

[J. Torres]

I saw a miniseries come out for her that I think has been collected as a GN. I'm thinking about getting that.

I wrote that so yes you should get it :biggrin:

And yes, it's been collected as a "Teen Titans Spotlight" trade:

http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/comics/?cm=9551

J.

[theyallfalldown]

i have veered between both loving and hating her throughout her carreer. loved her so much in young justice, and then initially in teen titans, but i dunno, lately she went all emo and annoying for me personally. loved her old costume, the red pants, with the red short top and head band. now she kinda looks a little odd imho. but hopefully she will sort herself out, writer permitting!

looking forward to felicia henderson's take.

i think part of the problem lately is there have been so many changes in writers over the past couple years

[Mark_S]

What actions? Not choosing to hep her sisters murder innocent people?

Taking down Air Force one, attacking the president, causing the death of the pilot of AF-1... basically committing treason and getting away with it. Sorry but DC can ignore that, I won't. Still have a problem with Supergirl too even though in the issue of AA she was little more than a lame brain tag along. But DC at least let her have an issue where she dealt with it (of course the legal side of things was ignored for her too, helps to have a cousin who is Superman) but Cassie never even had that. And neither of them cared or ever acknowledged that because of them a man was killed.

Mark_S

[galactica]

Taking down Air Force one, attacking the president, causing the death of the pilot of AF-1... basically committing treason and getting away with it. Sorry but DC can ignore that, I won't. Still have a problem with Supergirl too even though in the issue of AA she was little more than a lame brain tag along. But DC at least let her have an issue where she dealt with it (of course the legal side of things was ignored for her too, helps to have a cousin who is Superman) but Cassie never even had that. And neither of them cared or ever acknowledged that because of them a man was killed.

Mark_S

I'm not sure the pilot was killed, just severely injured. And it's far easier to have Supergirl deal with it because she has her own title and is a part of the larger Superman line, which really came in handy when we saw the President jokingly telling Joe-El and Alura that they owe him a plane.

[AllisterH]

I agree. Cassie was kind of designed to be the "regular girl" superheroine when Byrne created her. Though Byrne disapproved of including her in Young Justice, PAD did a great job and in many ways it was Cassie's personality that grounded the team. They went from being a crazy super-team of boys to a group of friends who happened to be young super-heroes pretty much starting with Cassie and Cissie becoming friends.

The truth is, though, that Cassie's been losing some of that essential "girl next door" quality for a while. Even before YJ ended. The first misstep, I think, was turning her into a demigoddess. The idea that Zeus granted her power because he admired her pluckiness is a better origin in terms of keeping Cassie's "common touch" than having Zeus empower another of his children.

And here's the thing...

This is the SECOND TIME that Byrne tried to create a "normal girl from next door" and another creator had to "improve" her.

Remember how he challenged Claremont when they collarborated on X-men to create a normal girl? Claemont couldn't and made Kitty a computer genius and ultimate ninja.

He comes to DC and tries again to create a normal girl who becomes a superheroine and once again, another writer comes in and makes her a demigoddess.

Bryne must be shaking his head and wondering what's wrong with people.

[Schornforce]

I'll be the first to say that for whatever reason, I disliked a lot of Byrne's run, but I did enjoy Cassie as Wonder Girl. Geeky gal next door Cass is my favorite rendition of the character, but sadly, she's gotten pretty far away from that and been kind of bland for doing so.

I totally get what some posters have said in regards to Vanessa and how she should've been the new Wonder Girl, but keep in mind, IIRC, Diana never 'chose' Cassie to be Wonder Girl. Cassie took it upon herself-- something I'm uncertain Vanessa would've done. Diana and Artemis simply sought to control and train Cassie instead of risk her getting hurt if she were to continue these stunts.

Also, IIRC, Zeus granted her power without either Diana's or Helena's consent. It was primarily Cassie's doing again.

I loved Cassie in Young Justice and in Rucka's run, but really haven't liked her at all in Titans (although, to be fair, I haven't liked ANYONE in Titans for a long time-- Bart is IMPULSIVE, darnit!!!). I did like the subplot with Ares' lasso turning her more violent and warlike in Ares' attempts to gain an additional advantage over Diana-- did that ever go anywhere after the Wonder Woman reboot? I can't recall. Ah well.

[worstblogever]

Anyone who puts out for Superboy can't be all bad, right?

[korok]

I've always liked Cassie, but didn't love her. I loved that Byrne introduced her, and kept her as a normal girl. His portrayal of her was dead on for what a "tomboy" type girl would have done...

I also like that she's grown. She was what, 12 or 13 when introduced? Now she's 16 or 17... I don't like all the changes she's gone thru - but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I will admit that I'm tired of her jeans and t-shirt costumes... Miss Cassie needs to stop copying Superboy and go do her own thing!

I do like that she's leading the Teen Titans. I would like to see more of her in the pages of Wonder Woman tho. But then, I'd like to see some of Donna in WW as well...

[Mark_S]

And here's the thing...

This is the SECOND TIME that Byrne tried to create a "normal girl from next door" and another creator had to "improve" her.

Remember how he challenged Claremont when they collarborated on X-men to create a normal girl? Claemont couldn't and made Kitty a computer genius and ultimate ninja.

He comes to DC and tries again to create a normal girl who becomes a superheroine and once again, another writer comes in and makes her a demigoddess.

Bryne must be shaking his head and wondering what's wrong with people.

When I think of who would make a good character template for a Wonder Girl I think of Veronica Mars. Who by the way I would love to see in Wonder Woman as a supporting character.

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

I'm not sure the pilot was killed, just severely injured. And it's far easier to have Supergirl deal with it because she has her own title and is a part of the larger Superman line, which really came in handy when we saw the President jokingly telling Joe-El and Alura that they owe him a plane.

Yea, but so long as they don't deal with it then it lingers for me. My fault perhaps, but there it is. And the idea that the president laughs off an attack that killed/injured one of the men sworn to protect him doesn't help either.

Mark_S

[Free-Man]

Yea, but so long as they don't deal with it then it lingers for me. My fault perhaps, but there it is. And the idea that the president laughs off an attack that killed/injured one of the men sworn to protect him doesn't help either.

Mark_S

If he were willing to laugh it off like that, I doubt the man died. Injured? Almost certainly. But I doubt the president is going to play the death of one of his men for laughs.

[SJNeal]

Like others have said, I didn't like that she was forced into the series as a replacement for the then far more interesting Vanessa. She was also a creation of Byrne, which automatically costs a character points :tongue: . She was ugly (or maybe that was just Byrne's rendition, cuz everyone was ugly..?), she was annoying, had the stupidest costume ever, and was a complete waste of panel time. So in a nutshell, I wasn't a fan in the beginning.

I never read Young Justice (which I might have to do someday), so my reintroduction was in the Titans/YJ Graduation Day arc. She wasn't so bad there. I followed her into Teen Titans, and throughout various other appearances and have to say I kinda like her; bitchiness and all. The jeans "costumes" are a huge improvement on the goggles and wig, and while it'd be nice to see her not emoting once in awhile, I can't complain once I compare her to the abomination that appeared on the cover of WW # 113.

[AdamYJ]

And here's the thing...

This is the SECOND TIME that Byrne tried to create a "normal girl from next door" and another creator had to "improve" her.

Remember how he challenged Claremont when they collarborated on X-men to create a normal girl? Claemont couldn't and made Kitty a computer genius and ultimate ninja.

He comes to DC and tries again to create a normal girl who becomes a superheroine and once again, another writer comes in and makes her a demigoddess.

Bryne must be shaking his head and wondering what's wrong with people.

Byrne just keeps doing it, though. I think the third version of Spider-Woman was also part of his "regular girl project".

Mind you, Byrne's standards for what an "everygirl" heroine should be able to do is kind of strict. If he had his way, Cassie wouldn't have joined any teams.


Again, just find it awesome that she's acually leading the team after yers of playing 2nd banana.

Cassie actually led Young Justice back during the end of that series. She won the role in a reader-voted election, too (like the Legion used to have back in the day).


I will admit that I'm tired of her jeans and t-shirt costumes... Miss Cassie needs to stop copying Superboy and go do her own thing!

Cassie did it before Superboy did. She's the one who set the trend.

[MinaRho1]

. She was ugly (or maybe that was just Byrne's rendition, cuz everyone was ugly..?), .

Yep, THAT part is all Byrne.
Kidding aside, Byrne's standard of everygirl IS strict. If Kitty had remained true to his original vision, she'd be dead by now. Adapt or die. He'd rather the characters stay stagnant, never go anywhere, never network and join anything, and never learn anything of practical use that would say, KEEP HER ALIVE? She hangs around the superhero crowd. Its tools of the trade goshdarnit

[buttler]

I find her irritating, but I'm not really her audience as a cranky Satellite-era fan who was never particularly interested in any member of Young Justice (except Reddy).

[Mark_S]

If he were willing to laugh it off like that, I doubt the man died. Injured? Almost certainly. But I doubt the president is going to play the death of one of his men for laughs.

I'd agree but for his behavior in AA. Really no one come out of that series un-scared.

Mark_S

[ScottyQuick]

I find her irritating, but I'm not really her audience as a cranky Satellite-era fan who was never particularly interested in any member of Young Justice (except Reddy).

Wait, since when AREN'T Satellite-era fen the target audience for every superhero comic?

[Free-Man]

Wait, since when AREN'T Satellite-era fen the target audience for every superhero comic?

Especially at the current DC, where Silver Age is king.:rolleyes:

[buttler]

Wait, since when AREN'T Satellite-era fen the target audience for every superhero comic?

I hear that a lot, but on the other hand they just brought Bart and Kon back, and Satellite era fans don't care about them. I think it's more of a free-range nostalgia. Hal and Barry may be back, but I can think of maybe two stories in the last five years that had anything close to an actual Silver Age feel to them, and nothing in the last couple years.

[Free-Man]

I hear that a lot, but on the other hand they just brought Bart and Kon back, and Satellite era fans don't care about them. I think it's more of a free-range nostalgia. Hal and Barry may be back, but I can think of maybe two stories in the last five years that had anything close to an actual Silver Age feel to them, and nothing in the last couple years.

Satellite fans shouldn't be the target audience. DC should be trying to reach younger fans and stop trying to soley appeal to Silver Age fans. What's been done to Connor Hawke, Cassandra Cain, and Kyle Rayner is a very clear indication of how DC feels about it's more recent heroes.

Even the Teen Titans had a Silver Age infused line-up and roster at the start of the relaunch.

[buttler]

Satellite fans shouldn't be the target audience. DC should be trying to reach younger fans and stop trying to soley appeal to Silver Age fans. What's been done to Connor Hawke, Cassandra Cain, and Kyle Rayner is a very clear indication of how DC feels about it's more recent heroes.

Even the Teen Titans had a Silver Age infused line-up and roster at the start of the relaunch.

I'm not saying they should be the target audience -- I'm saying they aren't. I'm saying the Silver Age canard is nonsense. Yeah, Hal and Barry are back, but the stories aren't the least bit Silver Age. Yeah, Morrison is drawing from every era from the Golden Age through the 2000s in his Batman stories. Yeah, the Titans have brought back the founding members at least once a decade since the beginning. But this "Silver Age" stuff just seems like bellyaching that stuff from before the 1990s is being acknowledged as having ever happened again.

As for "what's been done to Connor Hawke, Cassandra Cain, and Kyle Rayner," I don't have any idea what you mean about Kyle, who's always had it rough, unless it's just that he's not the only and bestest Green Lantern in the whole wild universe anymore, but I could say the same about the Freedom Fighters or the Dibnys or any number of characters that I grew up reading as evidence that DC just doesn't care about the heroes of my era. Everybody loves sour grapes.

[Raven Of Rhiannon]

I have never liked her origin or how she was introduced, but she has grown on me. I like the way Jimenez treated her, and I really enjoyed the mini. Haven't much cared for Teen Titans since Geoff left the book, maybe I'll try it again. HATE the Christmas Sweater.

[Black Atom]

I loved her in Young Justice, but otherwise I can't STAND her. Her and Donna Troy should go off and have their own little title of boringness.

I kinda feel the same way. I'm just indifferent to Wonder Girl, which is almost worse than hating her. I don't really see what she (or Donna, at this point) add to the DCU.

[Nevermore999]

I was first introduced to her in the early trades of TT, where I was okay with her. Then I went back and read YJ where I absolutely LOVED her, and saw that in TT she had been reduced to arm candy for Kon. OYL and onwards I was really frustrated with her, she was just a completely different character- a weepy teen stereotype. I bought her mini and enjoyed it up to the last couple issues, which were very "meh".

Now she's become a bit more tolerable and I'm just indifferent to her, though still holding out hope she'll become a great character again. I'm glad she's leader of the TT (though I've long since dropped that title) and I hope the new writer does some good things with her. I definitely think she needs to be closer to and have a stronger connection with Diana.

[JKCarrier]

Especially at the current DC, where Silver Age is king.:rolleyes:

Speaking as an Actual Silver Age Fan, if DC is trying to cater to me, they're doing an incredibly poor job of it.

[MinaRho1]

Speaking as an Actual Silver Age Fan, if DC is trying to cater to me, they're doing an incredibly poor job of it.

I think certain silver age elements are portrayed well in the Brave and the Bold cartoon.

A little goes a long way though. As long as its not a complete regression.

[DHacker615]

I'm not saying they should be the target audience -- I'm saying they aren't. I'm saying the Silver Age canard is nonsense. Yeah, Hal and Barry are back, but the stories aren't the least bit Silver Age. Yeah, Morrison is drawing from every era from the Golden Age through the 2000s in his Batman stories. Yeah, the Titans have brought back the founding members at least once a decade since the beginning. But this "Silver Age" stuff just seems like bellyaching that stuff from before the 1990s is being acknowledged as having ever happened again.

Well, I think the Silver Age gets a lot of the lip service that is used to explain various decisions.

The period that seems to get actual fan service is later. You are talking about the period running from the mid-70s until the first Crisis. That is the era of Superman as Space Jesus. The Silver Age Superman was more like Don Draper in that he spent all his time juggling two girlfriends and a supporting cast packed with other women who were in love with him. On Batman, we just saw a repeat "hairy chested love God" era with Ra's Al Ghul an Talia playing major roles. Again, that is the late-'70s Batman. The latest Legion revival looks to be back to the post-Disco era. The JLA currently features the Red-freaking-Tornado, who is more seventies than Travolta's White Suit. Geoff Johns is re-launching Barry Allen as a Nixonian Republican, which was how he was depicted in (you guessed it) the late-'70s.

Really, Wonder Woman is the only character who has not been rewound into the days of the "Star Wars" bedsheets. Well, except for a brief detour in Emma Peel land.

Part of it is healthy. The COIE was an attempt to "Marvelize" the DCU and to some extent that was a mistake. Earth-1, Earth-2 and the rest were awesome concepts. DC ditched a lot of their weirder and more interesting ideas to fit into a pretty ridiculous definition of "realism". To the extent that this generation of creators want to shake those shackles, I am happy to help with my wallet.

Part of it is really sick. DC was at its creative nadir from '74-'85. There was a reason the smart people running DC did the Crisis. Most of the interesting stuff coming out of DC in those days were at the margins. It seems insane to work so hard to get back to such a dull place.

The evolution of the various members of Young Justice are a symptom of that. There seems to be a movement to transform Tim, Cassie and Bart effectively into Dick, Donna and Wally. I guess Kon-El is sort of like Aqualad. Ugh.

[ScottyQuick]

Speaking as an Actual Silver Age Fan, if DC is trying to cater to me, they're doing an incredibly poor job of it.

What, don't you like your Elongated Man and Justice League Satellite Era full of anal rape?

[cockrumfan]

Speaking as an Actual Silver Age Fan, if DC is trying to cater to me, they're doing an incredibly poor job of it.

Really? The bringing Barry and Hal thing back, the Legion rebooting again, and everything since Identity Crisis and just about everything Geoff Johns is writing doesn't appeal to you as a silver age fan?
I'm 19, so I grew up reading Cassie and they YJ group, which was fantastic, because that was a book where you didn't feel talked down to, you got to see deep connections to the rest of the DCU that weren't seen elsewhere, Mallah and the Brain being the primary example that comes to mind. I hadn't read Cassie's appearences in Wonder Woman at that point, but in YJ you saw her become three dimensional, and her role in Teen Titans expanded that, but she got sidelined a lot, I think, since the team went through so many changes so rapidly after Infinite Crisis. I don't care for the daughter of Zeus origin, but then again, I'm not crazy about Ultra Boy getting his powers by flying through a space whale either, but that doesn't diminsh the character in any way.

[buttler]

Well, I think the Silver Age gets a lot of the lip service that is used to explain various decisions.

The period that seems to get actual fan service is later. You are talking about the period running from the mid-70s until the first Crisis. That is the era of Superman as Space Jesus. The Silver Age Superman was more like Don Draper in that he spent all his time juggling two girlfriends and a supporting cast packed with other women who were in love with him. On Batman, we just saw a repeat "hairy chested love God" era with Ra's Al Ghul an Talia playing major roles. Again, that is the late-'70s Batman. The latest Legion revival looks to be back to the post-Disco era. The JLA currently features the Red-freaking-Tornado, who is more seventies than Travolta's White Suit. Geoff Johns is re-launching Barry Allen as a Nixonian Republican, which was how he was depicted in (you guessed it) the late-'70s.

Really, Wonder Woman is the only character who has not been rewound into the days of the "Star Wars" bedsheets. Well, except for a brief detour in Emma Peel land.

Part of it is healthy. The COIE was an attempt to "Marvelize" the DCU and to some extent that was a mistake. Earth-1, Earth-2 and the rest were awesome concepts. DC ditched a lot of their weirder and more interesting ideas to fit into a pretty ridiculous definition of "realism". To the extent that this generation of creators want to shake those shackles, I am happy to help with my wallet.

Part of it is really sick. DC was at its creative nadir from '74-'85. There was a reason the smart people running DC did the Crisis. Most of the interesting stuff coming out of DC in those days were at the margins. It seems insane to work so hard to get back to such a dull place.

The evolution of the various members of Young Justice are a symptom of that. There seems to be a movement to transform Tim, Cassie and Bart effectively into Dick, Donna and Wally. I guess Kon-El is sort of like Aqualad. Ugh.

This is obviously going to be relative, as tastes will vary, but I completely disagree that DC was in its creative nadir during the Bronze Age. In fact, that's when the writing really stepped up its game from the hokey Silver Age. Denny O'Neil was doing great work in Green Lantern/Green Arrow and the Batman titles, Marv Wolfman was reinventing the Teen Titans, some of the best pre-Giffen JLA stories were going on in the Satellite era, and it was the strongest period for the Legion. Brave & the Bold and DC Comics Presents were just a lot of fun.

Now from where I sit, the creative nadir for DC Comics, with very few exceptions such as Starman, was the mid-'90s, Justice League Task Force era.

[AdamYJ]

Geoff Johns is re-launching Barry Allen as a Nixonian Republican, which was how he was depicted in (you guessed it) the late-'70s.

A lot of Johns' characters seem to lean toward the conservative side, don't they? Just an observation.


The evolution of the various members of Young Justice are a symptom of that. There seems to be a movement to transform Tim, Cassie and Bart effectively into Dick, Donna and Wally. I guess Kon-El is sort of like Aqualad. Ugh.

Actually, Kon is more like young Clark Kent now. Living in Smallville with the Kents, protecting his secret ID, taking care of Krypto, etc. Though, he has the added "drama" of being half-Luthor (am I the only one who doesn't see why Luthor is such a big deal? :confused: ).

[Free-Man]

A lot of Johns' characters seem to lean toward the conservative side, don't they? Just an observation.



Actually, Kon is more like young Clark Kent now. Living in Smallville with the Kents, protecting his secret ID, taking care of Krypto, etc. Though, he has the added "drama" of being half-Luthor (am I the only one who doesn't see why Luthor is such a big deal? :confused: ).

I enjoyed his TT run, but I found it annoying how he went to such lenths to make them into the Silver Age team. Turning Bart into Kid Flash was unneccesary, as was giving Cassie a Donna Troy-esque costume.

[90'sCartoonMan]

I loved Cassie. I was introduced to her through Young Justice, and thought she was a unique teen character and a unique female character. Then Teen Titans took a wrecking ball to that and made her the "cheerleader" to Superboy's "quarterback". The last thing she should've become was a cheerleader type. Her growth in Young Justice felt organic, but in Teen Titans, it felt forced. Her plots under Johns weren't bad, the Ares angle was kind of cool, but I haven't liked anything about Wonder Girl since Amazons Attack.

[d newton]

The first misstep, I think, was turning her into a demigoddess.
That happened prior to her joining YJ IIRC.

[AllisterH]

That happened prior to her joining YJ IIRC.

Er, no.

At the time she joined YJ, she had become Wondergirl because she had been "plucky".

Later on, AFTE YJ had been cancelled, it was revealed that she was the daughter of Zeus.

[philippos42]

Yeah, I don't much like that short, boyish, very human Cassie has memetically mutated into tall, hot, pissy Amazon demigoddess Cassie.

Of course, that can happen in real life. But it feels like someone assuming she's a generic Amazon rather than getting to know the character.

[J. Torres]

Hey, Cassie fans!

If you haven't already, please check out the Wonder Girl miniseries I wrote:

http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/graphic_novels/?gn=9551

Gail Simone herself says, "it really defined Wonder Girl."

You can even find the trade paperback for under $15 through some online dealers!

:smile:

J.

[Flâneur]

I wish Cassie would drown in a pot of volcanic poo.

I found her to be a tiny bit annoying during the Byrne run but appreciated the idea of her, at least, and the stuff I've read of her from Teen Titans has made me despise her. The Wonder Girl mini dealt well with her but my sense of her is just so polluted that I didn't enjoy the mini as much as it deserved.

[superchick]

I wrote that so yes you should get it :biggrin:

And yes, it's been collected as a "Teen Titans Spotlight" trade:

http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/comics/?cm=9551

J.

Why does Wonder Woman take up most of the cover on a Wonder Girl mini? Its so sad :( I don't even like cassie that much but would feel the same if Superman or batman took up the foreground on a supergirl and robin mini

[superchick]

Taking down Air Force one, attacking the president, causing the death of the pilot of AF-1... basically committing treason and getting away with it. Sorry but DC can ignore that, I won't. Still have a problem with Supergirl too even though in the issue of AA she was little more than a lame brain tag along. But DC at least let her have an issue where she dealt with it (of course the legal side of things was ignored for her too, helps to have a cousin who is Superman) but Cassie never even had that. And neither of them cared or ever acknowledged that because of them a man was killed.

Mark_S

Supergirl dealt with AA in a tie in and there were teen titans tie ins with them
http://www.comicvine.com/supergirl-no-good-deed/37-112670/
http://www.comicvine.com/teen-titans-flags-of-our-mothers/37-111035/
http://www.comicvine.com/teen-titans-life-during-wartime/37-112252/

[J. Torres]

Why does Wonder Woman take up most of the cover on a Wonder Girl mini? Its so sad :( I don't even like cassie that much but would feel the same if Superman or batman took up the foreground on a supergirl and robin mini

That cover was originally issue #6 and I can only speculate why they chose it for the cover of the trade paperback. First of all, WW is a draw. Secondly, it is, in my humble opinion, the best of the six covers the artist produced for the miniseries. It also ties into "Amazons Attack" and there's an amazon attacking Cassie :biggrin:

J.

[shanejayell]

Not to mention it's kinda hot.

Whoo-hoo, catfight!

*joking*
:tongue:

[d newton]

Er, no.

At the time she joined YJ, she had become Wonder Girl because she had been "plucky".
Show me which issue of YJ she asked Zeus that got her powers in then? :wink:

[Deathstroke]

I'm a fan of Wonder Girl.

[AllisterH]

Show me which issue of YJ she asked Zeus that got her powers in then? :wink:

Um I don't follow.

Cassie became Wondergirl in Wonder woman uner Bryne.

Throughtout the entirety of the YJ run which came after, the reason why she had her powers was because Zeus granted her the powers.

Then we find out post YJ in WW that Cassie is the duaghter of Zeus.

What are we missing?

[3D Master]

I pretty munch don't like her since her little superiority spiel to Superboy in the annual around Infinite Crisis. "Oh, we couldn't be sitting in an office! Look at us, we're so much better then they are! We must be out here and fighting!"

Makes me wonder what she'd be like if she didn't have super powers and/or there aren't any (super) bad guys for her to beat into a bloody pulp.

[Mark_S]

Supergirl dealt with AA in a tie in and there were teen titans tie ins with them
http://www.comicvine.com/supergirl-no-good-deed/37-112670/
http://www.comicvine.com/teen-titans-flags-of-our-mothers/37-111035/
http://www.comicvine.com/teen-titans-life-during-wartime/37-112252/

Supergirl's title dealt only with her regret over what she had done, not with the legal aspects of it, Cassie's scenes in those titles didn't even deal with that. Both of them skipped away, Cassie from treason and Supergirl from assault. But since Cassie knows Diana and Kara is Superman's cousin I get the feeling that having the right people in the right places buys you immunity. Reguardless to death or injury to innocents.

Mark_S

[cockrumfan]

Like I said, I always enjoyed Cassie, and I personally always saw her going from "spunky" to "cheerleader" as growth in the character. I thought it would be natural for her to reject the norms since she wore a wig and felt under classed compared to the other people her age, but as she grew more comfortable, we saw her lose the wig and jacket, get more comfy in her own skin, and finally be set on the path that (I for one, at least) thought she should be, culminating in the WG miniseries (great job Mr. Torres, by the way.) I associate it with Bart's situation, actually, because, yes he was great as Impulse, but growth isn't really a bad thing, and neither of them had their own book when Teen Titans came out, so it fell to Johns to make make them grow. Bart and Cassie moved along in their development, and while it was quick, and they got put into Silver Age archtypes, but hey, I'm not going to complain about actual character development with two of the characters I've loved since I was 8.