Are you a costume stickler?

[DeltaBadhand]

Today, I was informed by my boo that could no longer wear my favorite shirt (of all time) in public -as I'd finally worn it out. Collar fell off, holes in various places, hems all gone and fabric is curling up on the bottom and the sleeves. It doesn't look bad in this image, but it really is close to falling apart.

http://astro.temple.edu/~alower/poets_shirt_sm.jpg

I started thinking up different ways I could recreate the shirt -scan in the images and touch them up in Photoshop then print them on the iron on transfers you can by; or get someone to try and silkscreen it for me; or use Zazzle.com somehow.

But anyhow, as I did this I realized I'd never be able to make a shirt exactly the same. The cool tomato/plum color, the really nice cotton, the color of the images, etc. I could never, ever duplicate it enough to be the exact same shirt.

This caused me to think about threads I've seen before on message boards about Wonder Woman's costume. For example, some folks are really bothered that the tiara has two points. Some are bothered when the top is rounded instead of pointy, and so on. I've seen numerous posts about her belt, the cut of the bottom, the number of stars, the boots having/not having heels etc.

In my head, these are all simple changes in the costume that for the most part are irrelleve\ant. In my mind, as part of the general suspension of disbelief, I just chalk costume tweaks up to the fact that like my shirt, when Diana has to replace a peice of her outfit or wants to make sure she has a back up tiara in place, the new one is slightly different than the old one. And like all of us, she has many copies of her costume for sanitary reasons.

So somewhere in her apartment, she has a dresser drawer filled with many different tiaras. And like me, most time when she gets dressed, she reaches for her old favorite, while other times she digs down and puts on one she hasn't worn in a while. Same with the boots, some pairs have a white stripe that's 1/4 inch wide, some 1/2; some are flats with droopy leather and some are stiff with heels --Though she hasn't worn the heels recently. :tongue:

So my Wonder Friends, please as you tip your 40 in honor of the passing of my favorite shirt, tell me: Are you a costume sticker or not? If so, why doesn't my self-explanation work for you. If so, do you have to tell yourself to get past it (subconciously or otherwise), or does it just not register?

[Spiffy]

The sharp points are the only thing which REALLY bother me. Suspension of disbelief is fine, but that doesn't mean things shouldn't make sense.

As for people being sticklers? It makes no sense to me. They appear to be stuck on one version they've designated right in their mind (based a lot on a TV show), when in truth over the course of almost 70 years the costume has changed again and again. Radical senseless changes, like putting her in a jumpsuit, might be too much, but subtle adaptions over time? Big deal. Making the costume look more Warrior like and less swimsuity? I'm all for it, as long as its done with subtlety and the intent to honor the traditions behind the character. Being stuck on the Swimsuit to the exclusion of all else is just like insisting every actress considered to play the role in the movies look like a Lynda Carter clone. It makes no sense other than to cater towards people's nostalgia, and a general inability by many to honor a greater tradition other than the one they bonded with in their own youths.

[SJNeal]

I personally like to see the tiara drawn with points on both the top and bottom; just looks better to my eyes. The belt I'm pretty indifferent about. The only time it irritated me was when John Byrne drew it. The frickin' thing was huge! It looked like it was crawling up Diana's torso and about to eat her face!

[DeltaBadhand]

So spiffy is a non stickler; but SJneal you are definitely a stickler!

When you read, do you purposely look for things or is it more like you can't help but notice?

[SJNeal]

So spiffy is a non stickler; but SJneal you are definitely a stickler!

When you read, do you purposely look for things or is it more like you can't help but notice?

I don't typically look for things, but that I just couldn't help but notice. Byrne's redesign was so abrupt for me, I hated it from the start. And as if the sloppy art wasn't enough, his run proceeded to assault not only my eyes, but my brain as well with some utterly crappy stories. :evilangry:

Rock on gold dust woman, btw! :wink:

[aegisbearer]

Okay, since you asked so nicely, DBH:

I am a bit of a stickler. This is how I see her armor, and it is my favorite. I like the new design, too, but this is the one I love the most. The red cuirass should be metal with a metal breastplate. No heels. Double pointed tiara and belt. THIS is my Diana. These pictures show my first true love.

http://kleinletters.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/ww1_87.jpg

http://pics.livejournal.com/mosellegreen/pic/000ezb7g

[MinaRho1]

Agree. No heels.

Other than that I like the variation. As long as she's not in a ridiculous thong or g-string I think its perfectly plausible that Diana have a large collection of costumes and armor for each situation. As a public figure she's very caught up on pomp and circumstance, and her armor reflects that very well.

*shrugs*. She's so many things to many different people. The different costumes date her to the eras that we got attached to her.

I feel like I should be more nitpicky about the subject but I'm not.

[DeltaBadhand]

@aegisbearer: Sorry, but I'd have to call you a full blown stickler. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

[aegisbearer]

@aegisbearer: Sorry, but I'd have to call you a full blown stickler. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

And that's okay with me, DBH. Some things are imprinted on you, and this one is imprinted indelibly on me.

I love the Dodson version; don't get me wrong. But if I were to see a WW on a movie screen, I would hope it's the Perez version.

[dnatroy_aka_darman]

I'm a stickler.
I like GP's version and a bit of Dodson's
I like the large WW breastplate, I hate when the WW is shrunk down.
I like the double pointed tiara and belt. But sure don't want the huge Byrne look
I can handle the W belt, if it is solid and not shown w/ the line splitting it.
If the belt does have the WW split, then i prefer it be in a darker gold, not black ink.
I don't like huge or pointed braclets. GP had a fairly decent length drawn.
I like the boots w/ no heels and the soft point GP did, i never liked the sharp pointed boots, nor do i like the WW shape in the boots.
At some point, TOO many points in the costume gets little too annoying LOL:tongue:

[aegisbearer]

I'm a stickler.
I like GP's version and a bit of Dodson's
I like the large WW breastplate, I hate when the WW is shrunk down.
I like the double pointed tiara and belt. But sure don't want the huge Byrne look
I can handle the W belt, if it is solid and not shown w/ the line splitting it.
If the belt does have the WW split, then i prefer it be in a darker gold, not black ink.
I don't like huge or pointed braclets. GP had a fairly decent length drawn.
I like the boots w/ no heels and the soft point GP did, i never liked the sharp pointed boots, nor do i like the WW shape in the boots.
At some point, TOO many points in the costume gets little too annoying LOL:tongue:

You're my new best friend :biggrin:

[Raven Of Rhiannon]

I like all the costume variations, actually. I loved it when GP would have her in various Wonder Dress. And when Phil did that issue with ALL those costumes, I was in geek heaven. What bothers me is when artists don't get the simple things right: The Double W, the points on the tiara, etc. The rounded top that Lopresti is drawing is simply horrific in my eyes, because to me it's not a variation, it's an artist not taking the time to draw the costume correctly.

[Spiffy]

I'll go a step further than merely identifying myself as a "non costume stickler" and admit that I don't even GET the point of the sticklers.

Okay, that's not completely true I guess. I DO get that they are just opinions about what one individual or another thinks looks best.

The problem for me is that I rarely see anyone taking that stance able to progress in a conversation over the issue PAST the very simple logic that they "like" how it looks. Which is a legitimate position, sure, but very limiting in any debate. The other side can sometimes point to arguments outside that, like the fact that the character design HAS changed plenty over the past 68 years, or that its impractical, or that it might be nice to see variety, but the champions of the Lynda Carteresque design elements being carried forward in perpetuity usually don't want to qualify the position beyond the fact that its what THEY identify best with, therefore its what it should be.

Again, I suppose I DO get it. At least enough to notice the pattern. But when a position is held for those reasons... discussion always turns circular.

[lexid523]

I'm not picky about what it looks like in the comics, but if they ever get around to making a WW movie, I hope they hire this guy (http://fanartexhibit.wordpress.com/) and use his designs:

http://fanartexhibit.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/wonder_woman_pose_041.jpg

[MinaRho1]

I'm not picky about what it looks like in the comics, but if they ever get around to making a WW movie, I hope they hire this guy (http://fanartexhibit.wordpress.com/) and use his designs:

http://fanartexhibit.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/wonder_woman_pose_041.jpg

WHOLE-friggin'-HEARTEDLY agree!

Josh's design starts out with shoulder straps and pteruges (leather skirt) and gets progressively torn up until it finally resembles the Wonder Woman uh "swimsuit" we all know of.

I think that idea is brilliant and just imagine the musical score rising in that scene when the final result is presented.

Epic win!

[DeltaBadhand]

@Spiffy: I think we're totally in sync with this. I don't get it either. That's really why I posted this --to try to understand.

@RavenofRhiannon: this is part of what mystifies me most. What leads you to conclude that is being lazy or cutting corners versus just wanting to introduce something that makes sense. OR if the are cutting a corner on a small detail in order to make the overall end result more beautiful as a way to manage their time allotted?

[Raven Of Rhiannon]

@Delta: I would have to say that what leads me to this conclusion is when the changes are subtle or deemed insignificant.
Example: In Rucka's run, when Diana is fighting Medousa, she enters the arena in a gladitorial variation of her costume. I liked that and would call that a variant costume.
In the present run, Diana's costume is basically the same, but Lopresti has chosen to round out the top of the tiara. I don't consider than a variation on the costume, because it appears to me as if the artist just doesn't want to take the time to draw the tiana correctly.

It may be a subtle difference, and it doesn't bother me enough to rant, especially because I like Lopresti's art, but it does bug me.

[Wonder Watcher]

I'm a terrible stickler, or rather, I know what I like aesthetically.

I like the twin pointed tiara.
red star earings
WW (not eagle) breastplate, but larger and more like armour than Perez drew it.
Dodson belt redesign has grown on me, but old belt also cool.
Also like the stitching / lines that Dodson put in the bodice.
Stripey Boots have to be kicked up at the front - take note Doug Mahnke (he'll forgive me as I love his art). Preferably flats but small heels also OK.
Wonderpanties as per Adam Hughes.
Prefer the slightly longer bracelets.
Liked the Drew Johnson battle armour for the warrior days.
Don't lilke the screaming turkey armour.

What actually winds me up (to be honest it used to wind me up but I've since got over it) is when the look established by the main books artist isn't reflected in other books.

Things like missing the earings or changing the WW symbol or belt around used to annoy me no end.

Actually the missing earings still annoy me.

What a sad case.

[DeltaBadhand]

Awww. It's okay WonderWatcher. To each his own as they say.

[Spiffy]

I'm a terrible stickler, or rather, I know what I like aesthetically.

I like the twin pointed tiara.
red star earings
WW (not eagle) breastplate, but larger and more like armour than Perez drew it.
Dodson belt redesign has grown on me, but old belt also cool.
Also like the stitching / lines that Dodson put in the bodice.
Stripey Boots have to be kicked up at the front - take note Doug Mahnke (he'll forgive me as I love his art). Preferably flats but small heels also OK.
Wonderpanties as per Adam Hughes.
Prefer the slightly longer bracelets.
Liked the Drew Johnson battle armour for the warrior days.
Don't lilke the screaming turkey armour.

What actually winds me up (to be honest it used to wind me up but I've since got over it) is when the look established by the main books artist isn't reflected in other books.

Things like missing the earings or changing the WW symbol or belt around used to annoy me no end.

Actually the missing earings still annoy me.

What a sad case.
I don't begrudge you your opinions, but a question I always want to ask someone in your position is "why". I mean "why" besides the fact that you find something familiar or more personally aesthetic. I have to think its harder to explain than the reverse position, since you can't use precedent or practicality as rationales. It HAS to come down to "what I like" doesn't it? Nothing wrong with that, but it seems to be the beginning and end of the debate too.

And almost by definition I think "being a stickler" means sticking to one version or vision to the exclusion of others. And yet by your own admission, your preferences are instead pieces from many different versions. So ARE you actually a stickler? Or do you just have a mental picture you like and that's where your ideal lies?

[SJNeal]

I know what I like aesthetically.

I like the twin pointed tiara.
red star earings
WW (not eagle) breastplate, but larger and more like armour than Perez drew it.
Dodson belt redesign has grown on me, but old belt also cool.
Also like the stitching / lines that Dodson put in the bodice.
Stripey Boots have to be kicked up at the front - take note Doug Mahnke (he'll forgive me as I love his art). Preferably flats but small heels also OK.
Wonderpanties as per Adam Hughes.
Prefer the slightly longer bracelets.
Liked the Drew Johnson battle armour for the warrior days.
Don't lilke the screaming turkey armour.


I agree with all of the above. Almost forgot about the earrings! I hate when artists draw pearls as opposed to stars! :mad:

[MinaRho1]

I agree with all of the above. Almost forgot about the earrings! I hate when artists draw pearls as opposed to stars! :mad:

Yes. Lynda could pull off the red pearl things. Let comicbook Wondie have the star shaped earrings.

I like the way Aaron Lopresti draws the blue and white starred "panties" best.

[Black Atom]

I think, over the years, WW's costume has gotten way too complicated. For my money, it should always, more or less, look like this:

http://www.nysun.com/pics/3811_large.jpg

That's basically the way Perez drew it, as did Bolland. It looks like a superhero suit, like it should. Efforts to make it look more like armor (which started with Byrne I guess?) kinda fudged up everything. The "W" worked better when it looked like it was simply emblazoned on the suit and not meant to function as a "breastplate". Only a handful of artists, like Adam Hughes, are able to draw it that way convincingly and some mess it up altogether. Keep it simple. It's not like the lady needs armor anyway. And when it's drawn wrong, it doesn't look like she's be able to move in it.

[joshmc]

I'm not a costume stickler, if anything I wish WW's costume would resemble her culture more than what it does (which is to say not much). The issue I've always had with it's design over the years is that in comparison to other DC superhero outfits, her's makes no sense what so ever. Batman's is used to strike fear, GL's is the corps uniform, Superman's is Kryptonian wear of his family, and then here's a woman from a culture that's preserved it's ancient ways yet she gets around in some once piece spandex thing? I hear people use the word 'iconic' and yes this is true, the outfit is iconic, but it's the main elements of the outfit that makes it iconic not the design, the red and blue colour scheme, gold belt and breastplate, the tiara, the bracers, the lasso, the stars and the red boots. I think people tend to forget that WW has had probably more costume variations than any of DC's big characters, everything from the one piece swimsuit to skirts and shorts yet they all say Wonder Woman. This is why I believe WW's costume should reflect her roots, not getting rid of those core elements, but just adapting them to suit a more Greco-Roman style. Yes it's fantasy, but fantasy doesn't mean logical and reason can't be incorporated, in fact if anything it helps give a bit more depth to the character. Just my two cents.

[JKCarrier]

I don't begrudge you your opinions, but a question I always want to ask someone in your position is "why". I mean "why" besides the fact that you find something familiar or more personally aesthetic.

You're WAY over-thinking this. Demanding a "logical" explanation for why someone likes a certain costume is like demanding to know why someone likes anchovies on their pizza. It's a matter of taste.

[Spiffy]

You're WAY over-thinking this. Demanding a "logical" explanation for why someone likes a certain costume is like demanding to know why someone likes anchovies on their pizza. It's a matter of taste.

No I am not.

My point is simply that if someone has that position there's no debate to be had. It's simply a "what do you like" inquiry.

And since when is "overthinking" the crime people on these boards often make it out to be? I'm not demanding "proof" of anything. I'm simply asking if there's any hook for further discussion. Because a series of "I likes" never provides that. It becomes a series of monologues, not a discussion.

[BrianPGH1972]

I guess I'm a stickler to a point, but I'm also somewhat flexible. Basically the things that I really rail against most, are tights/leggings (I think of Cathy Lee Crosby every time I see them), thong-style bottoms, and straps.

While I do like a lot of elements in the Cobie Smulders costume design posted earlier in this thread, I wouldn't want to see that become WW's main look. Something along those lines would be cool for a battle scene though.

And, no, I don't really have any practical reasons for my preferences, it's just personal taste.

[MinaRho1]

While I do like a lot of elements in the Cobie Smulders costume design posted earlier in this thread, I wouldn't want to see that become WW's main look. Something along those lines would be cool for a battle scene though.

And, no, I don't really have any practical reasons for my preferences, it's just personal taste.

Worry not! The artist created that costume to wear down over the course of a hypothetical movie until it looks more and more like the classic comicbook costume. There are examples of it losing the straps, and other elements falling off in his website.

Its all just wishful thinking anyway.

[mgs]

I'm not picky about what it looks like in the comics, but if they ever get around to making a WW movie, I hope they hire this guy (http://fanartexhibit.wordpress.com/) and use his designs:

it's pretty good but his catwoman is awful!

and I know WW was created by Marston, a guy, but a more 'modern' version of her outfit should be designed by a woman designer. I've seen a few and the differences in women's and men's aesthetics vary, greatly! it would be nice to see how she would be redesigned using a woman's mind.

[lexid523]

it's pretty good but his catwoman is awful!

and I know WW was created by Marston, a guy, but a more 'modern' version of her outfit should be designed by a woman designer. I've seen a few and the differences in women's and men's aesthetics vary, greatly! it would be nice to see how she would be redesigned using a woman's mind.

Well, I may not have designed it, but I sure as hell would wear it, and I don't really care that a man designed it. It's very logical (as it evokes Greco-Roman armor) and at least looks functional.

[BrianPGH1972]

Worry not! The artist created that costume to wear down over the course of a hypothetical movie until it looks more and more like the classic comicbook costume. There are examples of it losing the straps, and other elements falling off in his website.

Its all just wishful thinking anyway.

Yeah, I like that his concept involves the "lines" of the costume becoming progressively closer to those of the classic costume. Still not quite the way I would go with it, but that's ok, because it's his vision, and the thought and creativity he put into it is remarkable.

[3D Master]

I'm not picky about what it looks like in the comics, but if they ever get around to making a WW movie, I hope they hire this guy (http://fanartexhibit.wordpress.com/) and use his designs:

http://fanartexhibit.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/wonder_woman_pose_041.jpg

The only problem I have with this, is that the red is too dark. It's barely even red anymore.