Anyone disagree with the "mutants = minorities/homosexuals" analogy?

[Jokerz]

I hope this won't be regarded as akin to blasphemy at these boards, but I've never agreed with the subconscious allegory in the X-Men books that mutants are somehow comparable to minorities/homosexuals.

There may be a few similarities, but the differences are far more significant. It's one thing to treat someone different because of their skin color or who they love, but it's quite another to treat them differently if, say, they can shoot lethal eye beams or otherwise cause grievous harm effortlessly due to an innate ability. Besides, if we were to learn of thousands of people acquiring spontaneous mutations, most of which are potentially destructive or difficult to control, can we honestly say we wouldn't be concerned? Sure we probably wouldn't go as far as the anti-mutant extremist groups we've seen, but I find it impossible to believe that most ordinary people wouldn't be concerned.

To me, the biggest difference is the placement of burden. In the case of minorities/homosexuals, the burden is on the person who views them with suspicion or hatred solely because of their skin color/orientation, because it is up to them to realize those are illogical reasons to view them in that way. However, in the case of mutants, the burden is on the mutants themselves, because they have to show that they can not only control their powers, but that they possess the self-control to not lash out with them in anger, or otherwise use them recklessly.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Somehow of us do believe Lee & Cie meant well and did try, but the analogy is tragically bad.

There's literally a world of difference between people who can level a building with a glare, touch or thought and actual minorities.

I guess one could think of it as something as cynical and clinical as Potential Damage Output, eh.

[tetragene]

I think it has more to do with what storylines and character angles have been based off of. Legacy Virus = AIDS. Physical mutations = "races" based off skin color. Mutant/Human segregation = white/black segregation. Discovering mutation at puberty = discovering homosexuality at puberty. Hiding mutation to fit in with general public = hiding homosexuality to fit in with general public. Etc,etc. I think the association has more to do with what the X-books have "borrowed" and less with how the 616 human world actually views them or the burden of their mutant gifts.

[worstblogever]

I think clueless suckers in denial might. Sometimes, they're beating the reader over the head with the comparitive symbolism.

"God Loves, Man Kills" was rife with it. As was the beating death of the mutant in X-Men:Prime, because stupid humans thought he was a Legacy Virus disease carrier for being what he was (comparisons to early HIV being GRIDS, or say, the beating death of Matthew Shepard in Wyoming in real life.

I'm happy to calmly explain these choices by the creative teams to have social awareness with anyone who's willing to listen. It's pretty clear it's there.

[Mia]

I think it has more to do with what storylines and character angles have been based off of. Legacy Virus = AIDS. Physical mutations = "races" based off skin color. Mutant/Human segregation = white/black segregation. Discovering mutation at puberty = discovering homosexuality at puberty. Hiding mutation to fit in with general public = hiding homosexuality to fit in with general public. Etc,etc. I think the association has more to do with what the X-books have "borrowed" and less with how the 616 human world actually views them or the burden of their mutant gifts.

I agree with this explanation, I think that various creative teams have borrowed from a variety of social causes (?) and conflicts over the years to tell their stories. But I strenuously disagree that being a mutant solely equates with homosexuality

[Sijo]

The symbolism is definitely intentional. However, I've *never* felt that it's been handled well. The stories focus on the victims (the mutants) and their abusers- but where are the people who defend them? Say what you will about America's history of tolerance, but there were ALWAYS those who fought for fairness, even during the worst periods. Even when they were a minority themselves, their voices were heard. But despite a few friendly non-mutants, in general the pro-mutant movement in the Marvel Universe doesn't seem to exist. Even major heroes like the Fantastic Four or the Avengers rarely speak against mutant prejudice. Is it any wonder the X-Men resent them?

[ZNOP]

I'd like to know who gets to decides who is a minority and who is not -- and by what divine right do these supposed categorizers have to do so in the first place? Now, that I think about it... Why stop at "Mutants = Homosexuals = ONE particular minority?" What about the other minorities? "Racial and ethnic minorities", "Religious minorities", "Age minorities", and the "Disabled minorities":confused:

After all, there are no "Majority" baseline homosexuals like "Captian America" or the "Wasp" in in comicdom!!!

[darknessatnoon]

It is a boring analogy. I don't need a $3.99 civics lesson.

[Hindsight lad]

One problem I always had was that mutants don't really have a culture or sub-culture of their own. Mutants are only united by the presence of an x-gene and being hated. There is no real common power or point of reference. There aren't hangouts where mutants can hangout and meet other mutants, no movis and songs that mutatns look at as their cultural heritage, no special mutant holidays or pride movements. Some creators (Morrison, Hine in District X, and Brian K. Vaughn in the great Chamber mini) tried to address this, and made mutants seem like an actual subcultural group, but for the most part the books just seem like a random group of people with powers.

And yeah, I think being suspicious of people that can litterally detonate and destroy city blocks or lift buildings is probably justified.

Hindsight lad

[darknessatnoon]

I'd like to know who gets to decides who is a minority and who is not -- and by what divine right do these supposed categorizers have to do so in the first place? Now that I think about it... Why stop at "Mutants = Homosexuals = ONE particular minority?" What about the other minorities? "Racial and ethnic minorities", "Religious minorities", "Age minorities", and the "Disabled minorities":confused:

After all, there are no "Majority" baseline homosexuals like "Captian America" or the "Wasp" in in comicdom!!!

Why are you always so confused? You know, ZNOP, translating reality into English for you is getting to be a real chore. It's an allegory, so the minority subject never has to settle. Sometimes it's more directly associated with one group; other times, a different group. In any case, it's always a cheap literary trick.

[ZNOP]

Did I say something that was not true or misleading?

[timbox]

I disagree with minorities/homosexuals.

[NewMutant]

I feel like that's asking a Star Trek fan if they disagree with the use of special effects and futurist technology?

It's a major element of the story, however not the only element. And like said before its for all minorities shown through different aspects.

[darknessatnoon]

'Minority' isn't the same thing as 'freak.'

[ZNOP]

'Minority' isn't the same thing as 'freak.'

Then why don't you enlighten us all and tell us what a minority is... I'm sure we can all learn something from you.

[Flâneur]

ITT: ZNOP, trying to demonstrate how stupid a comic fan can be.

[ZNOP]

ITT: ZNOP, trying to demonstrate how stupid a comic fan can be.

Take all the cheap shots you want. You only helped prove my point. I thank you.

[Puunk]

I think it has more to do with what storylines and character angles have been based off of. Legacy Virus = AIDS. Physical mutations = "races" based off skin color. Mutant/Human segregation = white/black segregation. Discovering mutation at puberty = discovering homosexuality at puberty. Hiding mutation to fit in with general public = hiding homosexuality to fit in with general public. Etc,etc. I think the association has more to do with what the X-books have "borrowed" and less with how the 616 human world actually views them or the burden of their mutant gifts.

I agree with this. Makes sense, when you look at it that way.

[timbox]

Take all the cheap shots you want. You only helped prove my point. I thank you.

Flâneur is not a minority.

[ZNOP]

I'm not that presumptuous -- I didn't say he/she was. Verily, I wouldn't know either way.

[tetragene]

I'm not that presumptuous -- I didn't say he/she was. Verily, I wouldn't know either way.

you sound like you would be a Sage fan

[darknessatnoon]

you sound like you would be a Sage fan

Verily, he is a Jean Grey fan.

[Flâneur]

Take all the cheap shots you want. You only helped prove my point. I thank you.
The farmer generally does not waste expensive ammunition on shooting vermin, cheap shots only.

[ZNOP]

cheap shot - Noun 1. an unnecessarily aggressive and unfair remark directed at a person like a missile; intended to have a telling effect.

If You say so!

SNL is on. I-B-OUT!

[Flâneur]

cheap shot - Noun 1. an unnecessarily aggressive and unfair remark directed at a person like a missile; intended to have a telling effect.

If You say so!

SNL is on. I-B-OUT!

unnecessarily?

I guess my shots weren't cheap then, my mistake.

[Prodigy55]

SNL is a re-run, stay.

[Flâneur]

SNL is a re-run, stay.

Yes, ZNOP, stay.

[durty dee]

I hope this won't be regarded as akin to blasphemy at these boards, but I've never agreed with the subconscious allegory in the X-Men books that mutants are somehow comparable to minorities/homosexuals.

There may be a few similarities, but the differences are far more significant. It's one thing to treat someone different because of their skin color or who they love, but it's quite another to treat them differently if, say, they can shoot lethal eye beams or otherwise cause grievous harm effortlessly due to an innate ability. Besides, if we were to learn of thousands of people acquiring spontaneous mutations, most of which are potentially destructive or difficult to control, can we honestly say we wouldn't be concerned? Sure we probably wouldn't go as far as the anti-mutant extremist groups we've seen, but I find it impossible to believe that most ordinary people wouldn't be concerned.

To me, the biggest difference is the placement of burden. In the case of minorities/homosexuals, the burden is on the person who views them with suspicion or hatred solely because of their skin color/orientation, because it is up to them to realize those are illogical reasons to view them in that way. However, in the case of mutants, the burden is on the mutants themselves, because they have to show that they can not only control their powers, but that they possess the self-control to not lash out with them in anger, or otherwise use them recklessly.

The question is should we be concerned? Should Short people be concerned about tall people who are genetically favored to be strong? Should women be concerned about men who genetically favored to be bigger and stronger? What about those born poor and those born with wealth and influence? What about the healthy and sick?

Its not just about race and sexual orientation. Its about discrimination. And we would have anit-mutant extremist groups. we have extremist groups for everything.

So what if they're born with a gun in their hand, any of us could harm or kill by other means.

[durty dee]

Like somebody mentioned before, I wish writers could tell some uplifting stories about mutants and humans fighting for civil rights.

Why don't more superheroes endorse mutants or the X-men!? They've saved the world many times!

That part of the reason why I hated Captain American. He stands for freedom and justice for all but he's never done a thing for mutantkind. wtf!?

[Slung]

I agree with this explanation, I think that various creative teams have borrowed from a variety of social causes (?) and conflicts over the years to tell their stories. But I strenuously disagree that being a mutant solely equates with homosexuality
Who said that it solely equates with homosexuality? And why, pray tell, is that something to get your panties in a bunch over even if it did? At this point in time, with so much hate, anger and lies being aimed at gay and lesbian people, it seems fairly appropriate that many reader's would equate the mutant plight with the struggles that gay people go through in the world: feeling different, feeling unwanted, feeling condemned, feeling hunted.

Verily, he is a Jean Grey fan.

We do not claim him as our own.

[Jokerz]

The question is should we be concerned? Should Short people be concerned about tall people who are genetically favored to be strong? Should women be concerned about men who genetically favored to be bigger and stronger? What about those born poor and those born with wealth and influence? What about the healthy and sick?

Apples and oranges. A person's height, gender, class, etc. are not comparable in the slightest to, say, someone who has pyrokinesis, telekinesis, super-strength, etc. That's exactly the point of my original post: mutant powers are so out of league with anything else we're born with that it's ludicrous to compare them to any of those.


So what if they're born with a gun in their hand, any of us could harm or kill by other means.

The difference is, they can't put that gun down, even if they wanted to.

[durty dee]

Apples and oranges. A person's height, gender, class, etc. are not comparable in the slightest to, say, someone who has pyrokinesis, telekinesis, super-strength, etc. That's exactly the point of my original post: mutant powers are so out of league with anything else we're born with that it's ludicrous to compare them to any of those.

Why aren't they comparable? Should a dwarf be concerned about living in a big man's world? Can superpowers beat money and privilege? I don't think so.



The difference is, they can't put that gun down, even if they wanted to.

They don't have to pull the trigger. A gun can kill, a man's hands can kill. It's not about the weapon. It's about the person. Many non-mutants go on killing sprees.

[Slung]

Apples and oranges. A person's height, gender, class, etc. are not comparable in the slightest to, say, someone who has pyrokinesis, telekinesis, super-strength, etc. That's exactly the point of my original post: mutant powers are so out of league with anything else we're born with that it's ludicrous to compare them to any of those.



The difference is, they can't put that gun down, even if they wanted to.

It's a loose analogy, not a literal real world translation.

[durty dee]

again, its about all types of discrimination.

[Jokerz]

Why aren't they comparable? Should a dwarf be concerned about living in a big man's world? Can superpowers beat money and privilege? I don't think so.


Ok, let me give you two hypothetical situations: First, a dwarf is waiting for a bus, and a person of normal height comes up and sits on the bench with them. Second, a normal person is waiting for a bus, and a mutant with the power to turn humans into living torches with a wave of his hand comes up and sits on the bench with them. Can you honestly tell me that the reaction of the dwarf in the first situation, and the reaction of the normal person in the second situation, would be in any way comparable? And even if both of them react with a measure of suspicion or fear, don't you think the person in the second situation has a much more justified reason to react in that way?

As for superpowers beating money and privilege, consider Superman and Lex Luthor. If Superman really wanted Lex dead, he could do the deed within minutes of setting his mind to it. He's had countless opportunities to turn him into a smoldering corpse. The only reason he hasn't is because of his strict, self-imposed code of morality.

So to answer your question, I say yes, superpowers do beat money and privilege. Money and luxury will be of small help when there's an angry, superpowered mutant determined to kill you.


They don't have to pull the trigger. A gun can kill, a man's hands can kill. It's not about the weapon. It's about the person. Many non-mutants go on killing sprees.

Quite right. Except, in the case of non-mutants, the effectiveness of their killing sprees is highly limited depending on what weapons/explosives/etc. they can get their hands on. But that's not a problem for a mutant. They have those built into them. There's a reason background checks exist when buying guns, why the sale of explosives is regulated, etc. For mutants, there are no such checks or regulations. Mutant powers are basically a crapshoot: some people who get them will use them responsibly, some will be unable to control them even if they mean no harm, and some will be truly destructive and anti-social in their abuse of their power.

And even if they don't want to pull the trigger, there are many mutants who have little or no control over their powers. Like I said before, they can't put the gun down even if they wanted to, nor can they prevent it from firing.

[The Black Guardian]

Ok, let me give you two hypothetical situations: First, a dwarf is waiting for a bus, and a person of normal height comes up and sits on the bench with them. Second, a normal person is waiting for a bus, and a mutant with the power to turn humans into living torches with a wave of his hand comes up and sits on the bench with them. Can you honestly tell me that the reaction of the dwarf in the first situation, and the reaction of the normal person in the second situation, would be in any way comparable? And even if both of them react with a measure of suspicion or fear, don't you think the person in the second situation has a much more justified reason to react in that way?
I kid you not, but I know a person who is so fearful of black people that she once broke down in tears when one boarded an elevator with her. I know another person who will not knowingly let a gay person come within 10 feet of them for fear of contracting "the AIDS."

And the thing is... on Marvel Earth, there have always been more humans that can literally toast someone with a wave of the hand than there are mutants. In such a world, yes, the mutant hysteria thing is a perfect analogy to minorities.

[Flâneur]

I think you're missing some vital points, Jokerz.

Firstly, mutants aren't defined by their powers, the vast majority of mutants are actually quite useless - furry ears, two faces, lips from the neck - and it's only the creme de la creme, the massively powerful terrorists and potential heroes that are dealt with. Sentinels, Proposition X and registration acts are still released for these people though.

Secondly, the power thing genuinely isn't an issue, as we see with standard superhumans. Look at the Fantastic Four, for example, they're highly loved by the public and have public identities while the Dazzler was spurned because of coming out. We also saw X-Factor as incredibly popular when they pretended to not be mutants. Interestingly, Ben Grimm has also actually expressed racist sentiments against mutants once or twice, despite his own situation.

It's not unlike the idea of discrimination based on sexual orientation. Functionally, there's no difference, you could have a pair of identical twins, one gay and one straight and have the gay one be the subject of discrimination for seemingly no reason. You also see bisexuals in committed monogamous relationships who are discriminated against by gay and/or straight people despite there really being no functional difference at that point.

Thirdly, the whole 'they're dangerous' narrative invokes colonial and imperialistic narratives not unlike the PR campaign about Iraq in recent years. Nations can develop super soldiers at will and geniuses can develop radical technologies which make superpowers superfluous (Reed's greatest asset is his brain, not his elasticity). It's a scare campaign by racists to demonise mutants not something based on their destructive capacity.

[ExodusCloak]

It's whatever you want it to be that way it can appeal to a wider audience.

[End of Time]

Somehow of us do believe Lee & Cie meant well and did try, but the analogy is tragically bad.

There's literally a world of difference between people who can level a building with a glare, touch or thought and actual minorities.

I guess one could think of it as something as cynical and clinical as Potential Damage Output, eh.

I love it that people don't really know what a metaphor is... especially one relating to science fiction.

DarthCyclops, give me an example of a decent analogy in fiction, and I'll show you that whatever you come up with, is going to be a flawed analogy.

That's the nature of translating one thing to another in order to create an analogy. It will NEVER be a perfect translation. That's why it takes a modicum of intelligence to see the analogy for what it is.

[worstblogever]

I love it that people don't really know what a metaphor is... especially one relating to science fiction.

DarthCyclops, give me an example of a decent analogy in fiction, and I'll show you that whatever you come up with, is going to be a flawed analogy.

That's the nature of translating one thing to another in order to create an analogy. It will NEVER be a perfect translation. That's why it takes a modicum of intelligence to see the analogy for what it is.

Is telling you that some of your posts are "like you're trying to not just make a point, but stab those its being made towards with it" a decent analogy, or a flawed one?

I humbly request you please try and have a kinder manner of presenting such observations. They may be better received.

Sincerely,
WBE

[Perfection/Emma 2]

I think in the beginning it did, but now not so much. However their are still characters that kinda relate to really world problems

Emma Frost= Cougars that would do anything for love

[darknessatnoon]

I think in the beginning it did, but now not so much. However their are still characters that kinda relate to really world problems

Emma Frost= Cougars that would do anything for love

Real Housewives of Nation X

[Deus ex Chris]

It's a loose analogy, not a literal real world translation.
Yes.
I love it that people don't really know what a metaphor is... especially one relating to science fiction.

DarthCyclops, give me an example of a decent analogy in fiction, and I'll show you that whatever you come up with, is going to be a flawed analogy.

That's the nature of translating one thing to another in order to create an analogy. It will NEVER be a perfect translation. That's why it takes a modicum of intelligence to see the analogy for what it is.
And yes.

I can't imagine why this is difficult for people.

[Flâneur]

Is telling you that some of your posts are "like you're trying to not just make a point, but stab those its being made towards with it" a decent analogy, or a flawed one?

I humbly request you please try and have a kinder manner of presenting such observations. They may be better received.

Sincerely,
WBE
Stop mini-modding.
I love it that people don't really know what a metaphor is... especially one relating to science fiction.

DarthCyclops, give me an example of a decent analogy in fiction, and I'll show you that whatever you come up with, is going to be a flawed analogy.

That's the nature of translating one thing to another in order to create an analogy. It will NEVER be a perfect translation. That's why it takes a modicum of intelligence to see the analogy for what it is.
Nail on the head.

[Hindsight lad]

Secondly, the power thing genuinely isn't an issue, as we see with standard superhumans. Look at the Fantastic Four, for example, they're highly loved by the public and have public identities while the Dazzler was spurned because of coming out. We also saw X-Factor as incredibly popular when they pretended to not be mutants. Interestingly, Ben Grimm has also actually expressed racist sentiments against mutants once or twice, despite his own situation.

By this logic, the Civl War/Registration controversy is not so much bigotry as a removal of bigotry, since now all superpowered individuals and vigilantes are viewed with suspicion, whether mutant or mutate. But your point is well taken. I seem to recall Grimm making such comments, but can't place a specific instance; do you have an example handy? I know U.S. Agent frequently used the word mutie right to Wolverine's face, which is certainly impolite. But U.S. Agent is a dick.

(Kitty Pryde has on at least two occasions said that mutie has all of the hateful connotations of other slurs. She always seemed to enjoy pointing this out to black people for some reason.

Wonder if there will be a movement of mutants to retake the word to rob it of its power, ala African Americans and "the N-word" or Native Americans and "injuns")

Hindsight lad

[durty dee]

Ok, let me give you two hypothetical situations: First, a dwarf is waiting for a bus, and a person of normal height comes up and sits on the bench with them. Second, a normal person is waiting for a bus, and a mutant with the power to turn humans into living torches with a wave of his hand comes up and sits on the bench with them. Can you honestly tell me that the reaction of the dwarf in the first situation, and the reaction of the normal person in the second situation, would be in any way comparable? And even if both of them react with a measure of suspicion or fear, don't you think the person in the second situation has a much more justified reason to react in that way?

As for superpowers beating money and privilege, consider Superman and Lex Luthor. If Superman really wanted Lex dead, he could do the deed within minutes of setting his mind to it. He's had countless opportunities to turn him into a smoldering corpse. The only reason he hasn't is because of his strict, self-imposed code of morality.

So to answer your question, I say yes, superpowers do beat money and privilege. Money and luxury will be of small help when there's an angry, superpowered mutant determined to kill you.


How would he know he's sitting next to a mutant? Unless he's already in "flame on" mode. Why should he be afraid? If the mutant harmed him in anyway, the police would be all over his ass. I'm sure they could easily trace the crime back to him because of his mutant powers. The mutant has no justifiable reason to attack him.

And dude Lex Luthor has killed many superhumans with his mind and power and has come close to killing Superman. I'm sure a normal person sat down next a mutant and the Kingpin, the mutant and non-mutant would run away crying.

[Flâneur]

By this logic, the Civl War/Registration controversy is not so much bigotry as a removal of bigotry, since now all superpowered individuals and vigilantes are viewed with suspicion, whether mutant or mutate. But your point is well taken.
I think the Civil War is more honest in its motivation, to be honest, just not in its practice or realisation.

I seem to recall Grimm making such comments, but can't place a specific instance; do you have an example handy? I know U.S. Agent frequently used the word mutie right to Wolverine's face, which is certainly impolite. But U.S. Agent is a dick.
One time that I seem to recall was during Secret Wars II. I remember thinking at the time how stupid he must be to say that, considering Franklin is a mutant himself (though I'm not sure if he was aware of it at that point).

[durty dee]

I love it that people don't really know what a metaphor is... especially one relating to science fiction.

DarthCyclops, give me an example of a decent analogy in fiction, and I'll show you that whatever you come up with, is going to be a flawed analogy.

That's the nature of translating one thing to another in order to create an analogy. It will NEVER be a perfect translation. That's why it takes a modicum of intelligence to see the analogy for what it is.

Right. Its not perfect, but I think its still great for a comic book theme.

[FeminineMystique]

The symbolism is definitely intentional. However, I've *never* felt that it's been handled well. The stories focus on the victims (the mutants) and their abusers- but where are the people who defend them? Say what you will about America's history of tolerance, but there were ALWAYS those who fought for fairness, even during the worst periods. Even when they were a minority themselves, their voices were heard. But despite a few friendly non-mutants, in general the pro-mutant movement in the Marvel Universe doesn't seem to exist. Even major heroes like the Fantastic Four or the Avengers rarely speak against mutant prejudice. Is it any wonder the X-Men resent them?

Precisely. It's no wonder so many fans think that Magneto had the right idea, given that humans in the X-UNiverse seem to be 99.9% of the pitchforks and torches wielding mob variety

[NewMutant]

Precisely. It's no wonder so many fans think that Magneto had the right idea, given that humans in the X-UNiverse seem to be 99.9% of the pitchforks and torches wielding mob variety

That's why it was stupid to kill off Moira.

[ProfeZZor X]

It is a boring analogy. I don't need a $3.99 civics lesson.

Tell that to little Tyrone that lives in the deep south (Louisiana, Alabama, etc.) that doesn't understand why he's being treated differently... Or little Mahallia and her strict Muslim family that came over to America and now reside in Manhattan.

Kids don't understand why they're treated differently. And often it's done in subtle ways. Whether it's an innocent comment/question from a friend, or from a group of ignorant kids that want to heckle for fun... It's all the same. It's still prejudice. And if you think it gets better for those kids,it doesn't.

Marvel's intent for creating the X-Men was for those young and troubled kids, not for your own jaded ego.

[Hindsight lad]

Originally Posted by Sijo
The symbolism is definitely intentional. However, I've *never* felt that it's been handled well. The stories focus on the victims (the mutants) and their abusers- but where are the people who defend them? Say what you will about America's history of tolerance, but there were ALWAYS those who fought for fairness, even during the worst periods. Even when they were a minority themselves, their voices were heard. But despite a few friendly non-mutants, in general the pro-mutant movement in the Marvel Universe doesn't seem to exist. Even major heroes like the Fantastic Four or the Avengers rarely speak against mutant prejudice. Is it any wonder the X-Men resent them?

I seem to recall that Captain America has spoken against mutant prejudice on several occasions, such as after bigots burned down the Vision and Scarlet Witch's house in Jersey. But he does seem rather silent on the issue much of the time. Although, in a short story in the Ultimate X-Men collection (the Byron Price book), Archangel praises Cap for taking a chance but putting two mutants, and two "evil mutants" at that, on his Avengers team and molding them into heroes. That would probably be the equivalent of JFK making half of his cabinet African American; a momentious gesture that lends credability to the mutant quest for acceptance.

I also enjoyed Avengers Spotlight 14, where She-Hulk argues against the constitutinality of the Mutant Registration Act before the Supreme Court, and makes very good legal points using ACTUAL CONSTITUTIONAL LAW (sorry, still angry at the vagueness of the SRA). I'm not sure if the court's decision was ever revealed, but I seem to recall a letter column said the Registration Act was struck down. Certainly a major blow for mutant rights, and not an X-Man in sight.

Peter David also created a minor character in his first X-Factor run, Victoria Wang (X-Factor 77 and 78). VIctoria was a public defender who represented Hairbag and Slab, and argued strenuously on them receiving their full rights as citizens. She also alluded to the unjust way that the government threw criminals in the Vualt with little in the way of due process. I always found Victoria to be a fascinating character, and think she would work well to spark debate about civil rights and other issues.

Hindsight lad

[Ayo]

I always love the X-Men, but it's an offensive analogy any way you examine it.

As others have said, a black person, gay person, Asian person, etc cannot level a building on a whim. No matter how much someone may fear real-life minorities, they don't have these fantastical abilities.

Regardless of whether a person is "responsible," the next person has no way to fully feel safe if the first person is armed. It's stupid.


Anyway, I love the X-Men and all of their ethno-offensiveness.

[darknessatnoon]

I always love the X-Men, but it's an offensive analogy any way you examine it.

As others have said, a black person, gay person, Asian person, etc cannot level a building on a whim. No matter how much someone may fear real-life minorities, they don't have these fantastical abilities.

Regardless of whether a person is "responsible," the next person has no way to fully feel safe if the first person is armed. It's stupid.


Anyway, I love the X-Men and all of their ethno-offensiveness.

You're a little too invested if you find it offensive.

[darknessatnoon]

Tell that to little Tyrone that lives in the deep south (Louisiana, Alabama, etc.) that doesn't understand why he's being treated differently... Or little Mahallia and her strict Muslim family that came over to America and now reside in Manhattan.

Kids don't understand why they're treated differently. And often it's done in subtle ways. Whether it's an innocent comment/question from a friend, or from a group of ignorant kids that want to heckle for fun... It's all the same. It's still prejudice. And if you think it gets better for those kids,it doesn't.

Marvel's intent for creating the X-Men was for those young and troubled kids, not for your own jaded ego.

Tyrone and Sha'quan and Mahallia can't afford comics for $3.99, and I don't give a shit about them either way.

Was Marvel Zombies also created for troubled kids?

[Novaya Havoc]

Tell that to little Tyrone that lives in the deep south (Louisiana, Alabama, etc.) that doesn't understand why he's being treated differently... Or little Mahallia and her strict Muslim family that came over to America and now reside in Manhattan.

Kids don't understand why they're treated differently. And often it's done in subtle ways. Whether it's an innocent comment/question from a friend, or from a group of ignorant kids that want to heckle for fun... It's all the same. It's still prejudice. And if you think it gets better for those kids,it doesn't.

Marvel's intent for creating the X-Men was for those young and troubled kids, not for your own jaded ego.

lol lol lol lol lol

plz gimme free college aid for a 19 ACT score, too. lol. THE JUDGMENT!!!

I'm glad that Marvel is the pinnacle of philanthropic works. I wonder if the Vatican is funding them for their amazing works of service and mercy?

[lockerogue]

I demand that Sha'quan get a back story plz.

[7thangel]

To me, the biggest difference is the placement of burden. In the case of minorities/homosexuals, the burden is on the person who views them with suspicion or hatred solely because of their skin color/orientation, because it is up to them to realize those are illogical reasons to view them in that way. However, in the case of mutants, the burden is on the mutants themselves, because they have to show that they can not only control their powers, but that they possess the self-control to not lash out with them in anger, or otherwise use them recklessly.

sorry, but you got this wrong. the burden on minorities (not all the same as they have different prejudices they have to fight) has been on them to prove that they're not dangerous, not criminals, not angry, not going to take jobs, not rape, not bring disease, not breed, not bring up discrimination, not get revenge, not scare, not influence, and finally their burden is too show that they will assimilate but not in their own terms.

the analogy is not really fleshed out that well and is pretty flat and simplistic, imo, i don't expect it to get any deeper.

[Novaya Havoc]

Was The Phalanx Covenant an allegory on white privilege and attempting to make minorities assimilate to their culture?

Discuss.

[tetragene]

Tell that to little Tyrone that lives in the deep south (Louisiana, Alabama, etc.) that doesn't understand why he's being treated differently... Or little Mahallia and her strict Muslim family that came over to America and now reside in Manhattan.

Jesus Christ, can we please quit spreading this media based depiction of the South? Speaking as someone who lives in the deep south, is a minority and has majority friends that are minorities--this whole "the South hates all non-whites, non-hetero, non-christians!" bullshit needs to be squashed.

[Novaya Havoc]

Jesus Christ, can we please quit spreading this media based depiction of the South? Speaking as someone who lives in the deep south, is a minority and has majority friends that are minorities--this whole "the South hates all non-whites, non-hetero, non-christians!" bullshit needs to be squashed.

Whatever. Put your Klansman hood back on, you cracker.

p.s. "cracker" is the most lulzy insult i've ever heard. crackers are frickin delicious, especially if they're wheat thins <3

[ProfeZZor X]

Tyrone and Sha'quan and Mahallia can't afford comics for $3.99, and I don't give a shit about them either way.

Was Marvel Zombies also created for troubled kids?

While they're stuck up in their rooms and affraid to go outside to play with anyone - because of that prejudice, what else are they going to do with their allowances?

Kids still do get allowances these days, right?

[Slung]

Jesus Christ, can we please quit spreading this media based depiction of the South? Speaking as someone who lives in the deep south, is a minority and has majority friends that are minorities--this whole "the South hates all non-whites, non-hetero, non-christians!" bullshit needs to be squashed.

You still have a majority of voters that love to discriminate there (of course, so does CA).

[tetragene]

You still have a majority of voters that love to discriminate there (of course, so does CA).

as far as racial minorities go, this whole idea that the "deep south" is still stuck back in the 60's is hilarious to me. As far as homosexuals, meh, the "rights" thing will always be an issue because the deep south is a Bible belt region with predominately religious backbones. But as far as being discriminated against at work, in stores, getting insults hurled left and right, threatened, etc, etc--no, the South is nothing like the movies depict.

[darknessatnoon]

Jesus Christ, can we please quit spreading this media based depiction of the South? Speaking as someone who lives in the deep south, is a minority and has majority friends that are minorities--this whole "the South hates all non-whites, non-hetero, non-christians!" bullshit needs to be squashed.

Jesus Christ? Way to alienate Mahallia, bigot!


You still have a majority of voters that love to discriminate there (of course, so does CA).

Your governor is the Terminator. You have no voice here.

[darknessatnoon]

While they're stuck up in their rooms and affraid to go outside to play with anyone - because of that prejudice, what else are they going to do with their allowances?

Kids still do get allowances these days, right?

I'm related to Mahallia. She is not allowed to buy comics with nudist Storm and bondage Emma Frost.

Anyway, kids do know why they're being discriminated against. They don't need a comic book to explain it.

[Swashbuckler]

I discriminate against all children equally. They're annoying and can't do anything for themselves.

[tetragene]

Jesus Christ? Way to alienate Mahallia, bigot!

I guess ProfeZZor X was right then, I'm a product of the discriminatory, bigoted South :frown:

[RolandJP]

It is a boring analogy. I don't need a $3.99 civics lesson.

Darkness, Id give you one for FREE

And I would think anyone who gives their location as the Hindu Kush mountains of central Afghanistan and north-western Pakistan would want as much tolerance as possible.

[FeminineMystique]

I'd prefer the whole Mutants/Minority parallel if it was handled more realistically. Sadly that doesn't seem likely anytime soon

I'm related to Mahallia. She is not allowed to buy comics with nudist Storm and bondage Emma Frost.
Anyway, kids do know why they're being discriminated against. They don't need a comic book to explain it.

Poor girl:frown:

[Hindsight lad]

Jesus Christ, can we please quit spreading this media based depiction of the South? Speaking as someone who lives in the deep south, is a minority and has majority friends that are minorities--this whole "the South hates all non-whites, non-hetero, non-christians!" bullshit needs to be squashed.

Thank you. While every region has its problems, I don't think that the South ever gets enough credit for changing for the better. Frankly, I think Norhterns (of which I am one) like to say that the South is racist because it distracts from our own prominent racism. Blacks in norhtern cities restricted to ghettos, earn less than whites and have a one in three chance of ending up in jail? Well, at least we ain't Alabama.:rolleyes:

Plus, while I am sure some minorities have really been touched by the allegory of mutant struggles against bigotry, can most inner city youth really sympathize with a bunch of beautiful, (mostly) white people who live in a mansion. Sympathy is inverse to how many Lear jets and Miatas the X-men own.:biggrin:

Hindsight lad

[Firemane]

Given how the need to be politically correct has reached the point where its acceptable for it to interfere with freedom of speech, and in some cases common sense. Is there really a need for The X-men anymore? Does the whole idea of mutants and their place in the MU need to be reworked?

[Firemane]

Thank you. While every region has its problems, I don't think that the South ever gets enough credit for changing for the better. Frankly, I think Norhterns (of which I am one) like to say that the South is racist because it distracts from our own prominent racism. Blacks in norhtern cities restricted to ghettos, earn less than whites and have a one in three chance of ending up in jail? Well, at least we ain't Alabama.:rolleyes:

Plus, while I am sure some minorities have really been touched by the allegory of mutant struggles against bigotry, can most inner city youth really sympathize with a bunch of beautiful, (mostly) white people who live in a mansion. Sympathy is inverse to how many Lear jets and Miatas the X-men own.:biggrin:

Hindsight lad

Well tere are alot of places that aren't. Being someone who wasn't born an
american citizen i found it rather interesting to be told by a bus driver that i cannot sit in the back of the bus because thats where the blacks sit or be denied service because I was with a couple of African Americans. And that discrimination works both ways as i was unlucky enough to find out...

[Ayo]

You're a little too invested if you find it offensive.

What kind of response is that?

If you're not going to take what you read seriously to some degree, why are you on a discussion forum?

I really hate when people spout off this "you're taking _____ too seriously" nonsense. That's just an EXTREMELY intellectually lazy and generally callous way of saying "I don't care about your differing opinion, so I'll just tell you to kiss off."

Step your debating game up.

[darknessatnoon]

What kind of response is that?

If you're not going to take what you read seriously to some degree, why are you on a discussion forum?

I really hate when people spout off this "you're taking _____ too seriously" nonsense. That's just an EXTREMELY intellectually lazy and generally callous way of saying "I don't care about your differing opinion, so I'll just tell you to kiss off."

Step your debating game up.

I am not debating you. I'm afraid I'd offend you.

[ZNOP]

What kind of response is that?

If you're not going to take what you read seriously to some degree, why are you on a discussion forum?

I really hate when people spout off this "you're taking _____ too seriously" nonsense. That's just an EXTREMELY intellectually lazy and generally callous way of saying "I don't care about your differing opinion, so I'll just tell you to kiss off."

Step your debating game up.

Bravo:cool:

[The Weather God]

The question is should we be concerned? Should Short people be concerned about tall people who are genetically favored to be strong? Should women be concerned about men who genetically favored to be bigger and stronger? What about those born poor and those born with wealth and influence? What about the healthy and sick?

Its not just about race and sexual orientation. Its about discrimination. And we would have anit-mutant extremist groups. we have extremist groups for everything.

So what if they're born with a gun in their hand, any of us could harm or kill by other means.

Agreed,

A human with a gun could just as easily do as much damage as alot of mutants. In fact, most mutants can't even deflect gunfire. If someone like the wrestler "Big Show"(a man who can tip over a jeep) got on a bus with people he'd be a even bigger threat then alot of lower leveled mutants.

And not all mutants are as powerful as Magneto or Storm or even Xavier. Most mutants are low leveled and don't really pose a huge threat to the degree of blowing up a city or destroying the world.

Don't forget, there are humans who have been capable of achieving things far greater then what most mutants can do.

IE: Creating giant unstoppable Sentinels that could potentially destroy the world. Who's to say the mutants shouldn't be more concerned if they got onto a bus with humans?

[Frank]

About the minorities/homosexual analogy, considering the number of gay posters and emo kids in these boards, I would say it has worked as a marketing point, no doubt. :wink:

[MarvelGirlBoy]

About the minorities/homosexual analogy, considering the number of gay posters and emo kids in these boards, I would say it has worked as a marketing point, no doubt. :wink:

Your point fails to explicitly connect with Tyrone. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Clearly X-Men is presently a franchise aimed at the priveleged white overclass in which gays and emo kids flourish like smallpox. And Tyrone and the real minorities must save their precious plantation pocket-money for another day.


Thirdly, the whole 'they're dangerous' narrative invokes colonial and imperialistic narratives not unlike the PR campaign about Iraq in recent years. Nations can develop super soldiers at will and geniuses can develop radical technologies which make superpowers superfluous (Reed's greatest asset is his brain, not his elasticity). It's a scare campaign by racists to demonise mutants not something based on their destructive capacity.

Homosexuals, black people, Muslims and many other minorities in the West have been characterised as "dangerous" as part of the culture of oppression. Their "weapons", the spread of AIDS, gang culture and gun crime, or terrorism are all used to excuse discrimination and bigotry. The point of the grand metaphor of mutants, is, rather tackily, that they are still human. An allegory only doesn't fly if nobody is good enough to step up and smooth out the latest crack.

[Monty_Cristo]

some of Shortpack's best friends are minorities/homosexuals.

[Bastet]

Well I don't think mutants necessarily have refer to homosexuals or racial minorities in particular. I think the whole concept does a good job at reflecting a particular trait of human nature (not precisely a good one) which is having prejudices against anything slightly different that may make the rest of the population (the homogeneous group) feel threatened. Marvel has been especially good at reflecting society and people's reactions to minorities and exaggerating them to show what could happen if discrimination rates keep going up. It's their way to send a message but I don't think it's a big deal.

People always seems to try to find homophobe/homosexual innuendos in every large franchise such as Harry Potter, Star Wars, X-Men or whatever... that's just because most of the popular books, comic books or movies talk about being different and hated for not being another clone in the system and at the same time, the hero has friends who accept him or her as he is which is something we all seek deep inside, acceptance. It's just human nature (I think). We all feel different at some point of our lives, especially when we're teenagers and there will always be a part of society discriminating us for something we do or like. Even if we were rich and blue eyed and blonde, we could still be gay and be left aside for that or listen to a certain kind of music or whatever thing we do that is not what most people does. So, as we all will feel discriminated at some point, making a franchise about the whole subject will make most people feel connected to it in a way or another. That's why marvel super heroes are so popular (that and the good plot arcs of course), the whole concept is destined to get sympathy from most people.

When I said discrimination is a part of human nature, I didn't mean it as something conscious, but rather an unconscious residue of our cavemen dark ages, when anyone with different abilities, especially the ones that might help that particular individual survive better than the rest worse adapted to that environment, was feared and seen as an enemy. Why? Because food was scarce and getting rid of the different individual who was seen as a menace and could steal the food from "us" was a way of protecting one self.

The other unconscious reason why discrimination is buried so deep into human minds is weaker individuals or those with mutations that made them less well adapted were an easy prey for the beasts and so they were left aside. That way when beasts came to eat it, the rest would be safe somewhere else and if there weren't any sick or weak individuals in the group the predators would attack another group. It's still the same thing, securing the continuity of the specie.

Through time, it became a conditioned reflex and so, whenever someone's different people tend to push it away and leave it alone because it could be better than us and steal our food or too weak and attract predators to the home and endanger the fully adapted individuals too.

We might look all evolved now, but we're mere animals with a more developed mind and since it hasn’t been that long since we got down of the trees (so to speak) I think we should take into account our animal legacy when thinking about our everyday life. After all, most of our social behaviour today comes from social behaviours we had many many years ago, even before we learned to walk properly.

That's my 2 cents.

[Filthy Mutie]

Thank you. While every region has its problems, I don't think that the South ever gets enough credit for changing for the better. Frankly, I think Norhterns (of which I am one) like to say that the South is racist because it distracts from our own prominent racism.

I was just about to say something like this. I grew up in/around Detroit, but my family is from the South and I've traveled a lot--enough to know every region is equally intolerant.

Now I live in Boston, MA, which is reputed to be ultra-liberal and ultra-tolerant, but I can tell you that it's actually quite the opposite. It's not Pandemonium here, but like every major city, it has a sordid history that is still felt, and the melting pot still gets hot on all sides.

I remember when I first started traveling with friends and acquaintances who are from greater Boston and have never really been south of NYC or more west than the 495 beltway. Every region blew their minds for one reason or another, and they couldn't believe "people could live this way". (Welcome to your country, man. All that food you waste? Yeah, this is where it comes from.) ANYWAY, their views of the South were exactly that media-perpetuated stereotype and it was really bothersome. Like, they'd make astounded observations aloud and in ear-shot of natives and embarrass me, hard.

A good thing that came from this, however: one of my good friends who is also suuuuper hot and black pointedly wore her Confederate Flag bikini to blow their minds. Blew mine, too, but for other, better reasons.

To contribute to the thread's topic: I don't think the mutant allegory can be applied to a broad group (minorities, homosexuals) in terms of danger-levels, powers, and what-have-you--it's about alienation, not specifically threat-level. And if you don't feel truly alienated at some point in your life, you lead a charmed one--unfortunately, some people get the short end of that stick more than others. Does the allegory work? I think it does when the story isn't in space about bird people fearing star-eating bigger birds or dimensions with horned demons. I definitely prefer my x-books on the streets, in the bars, in the schools, and on doomed (floating) island nations. So, to that end, yes.

[ZNOP]

The other unconscious reason why discrimination is buried so deep into human minds is weaker individuals or those with mutations that made them less well adapted were an easy prey for the beasts and so they were left aside. That way when beasts came to eat it, the rest would be safe somewhere else and if there weren't any sick or weak individuals in the group the predators would attack another group. It's still the same thing, securing the continuity of the specie.

Through time, it became a conditioned reflex and so, whenever someone's different people tend to push it away and leave it alone because it could be better than us and steal our food or too weak and attract predators to the home and endanger the fully adapted individuals too.

We might look all evolved now, but we're mere animals with a more developed mind and since it hasn’t been that long since we got down of the trees (so to speak) I think we should take into account our animal legacy when thinking about our everyday life. After all, most of our social behaviour today comes from social behaviours we had many many years ago, even before we learned to walk properly.

That's my 2 cents.

I don't know about the comic book world but, that pretty much sums up what's going on around the country involving health care.

[Hindsight lad]

I think one problem is that the X-Men have very rarely been written by minority creators. There have been tons of Asian, Latino, etc. pencilers, but the writers always seem to be white guys. Peter David, a Jewish guy, was one of the first to really bring some insight into real world race and ethnic politics to mutants in his X-Factor run (We don't like to be called mutants. Were Genetically Challenged, or GeeCees for short.) If an African-American writer, I'm thinking a McDuffy or a Priest, could truly have a shot at the X-Men, then the analogy might gain some juice. Hell, even a woman writer might bring some fresh insight into discrimination/oppresson.

Also, did anyone read the X-Factor miniseries written by Jeff Jensen, about the two FBI agents assigned to investigate mutant hate crimes? I though the series did a really good job of looking at the issue from the human side of things. The man lost an arm from a mutant attack, and was also a fundamentalish Christian who was uncomfortable with the idea of mutants. The woman was an African-American woman who gave birth to a mutant child that burned to death from its power and was now considering aborting her current pregnancy. It was very good, and had wonderful art, but is now almost completely forgotten.

Hindsight lad

[darknessatnoon]

I think one problem is that the X-Men have very rarely been written by minority creators. There have been tons of Asian, Latino, etc. pencilers, but the writers always seem to be white guys. Peter David, a Jewish guy, was one of the first to really bring some insight into real world race and ethnic politics to mutants in his X-Factor run (We don't like to be called mutants. Were Genetically Challenged, or GeeCees for short.)

What was the real world insight - the mockery of political correctness? I don't really think you have to have much minority insight to make fun of the mutant allegory.

[RolandJP]

I think one problem is that the X-Men have very rarely been written by minority creators. There have been tons of Asian, Latino, etc. pencilers, but the writers always seem to be white guys. Peter David, a Jewish guy, was one of the first to really bring some insight into real world race and ethnic politics to mutants in his X-Factor run (We don't like to be called mutants. Were Genetically Challenged, or GeeCees for short.) If an African-American writer, I'm thinking a McDuffy or a Priest, could truly have a shot at the X-Men, then the analogy might gain some juice. Hell, even a woman writer might bring some fresh insight into discrimination/oppresson.

Also, did anyone read the X-Factor miniseries written by Jeff Jensen, about the two FBI agents assigned to investigate mutant hate crimes? I though the series did a really good job of looking at the issue from the human side of things. The man lost an arm from a mutant attack, and was also a fundamentalish Christian who was uncomfortable with the idea of mutants. The woman was an African-American woman who gave birth to a mutant child that burned to death from its power and was now considering aborting her current pregnancy. It was very good, and had wonderful art, but is now almost completely forgotten.

Hindsight lad

Which X-factor limited series was this? Also, it is astounding that minorities have not written much in the way of X-titles--even one-shots or limited series ( Larry Hama being the exception) . Simultaneously, the rash of minority deaths in the X-titles is also alarming.

[ZNOP]

Also, it is astounding that minorities have not written much in the way of X-titles--even one-shots or limited series ( Larry Hama being the exception) . Simultaneously, the rash of minority deaths in the X-titles is also alarming.

Alarming or acceptable? If there is any correlation between the X-Titles and real world reality -- U.S. history since 1880 (http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1979/2/79.02.04.x.html#b), is notoriously riddled with the acceptable death(s) of it's minority (slave) population as commonplace.

[Frank]

I think one problem is that the X-Men have very rarely been written by minority creators. There have been tons of Asian, Latino, etc. pencilers, but the writers always seem to be white guys. Peter David, a Jewish guy, was one of the first to really bring some insight into real world race and ethnic politics to mutants in his X-Factor run (We don't like to be called mutants. Were Genetically Challenged, or GeeCees for short.) If an African-American writer, I'm thinking a McDuffy or a Priest, could truly have a shot at the X-Men, then the analogy might gain some juice. Hell, even a woman writer might bring some fresh insight into discrimination/oppresson.

Also, did anyone read the X-Factor miniseries written by Jeff Jensen, about the two FBI agents assigned to investigate mutant hate crimes? I though the series did a really good job of looking at the issue from the human side of things. The man lost an arm from a mutant attack, and was also a fundamentalish Christian who was uncomfortable with the idea of mutants. The woman was an African-American woman who gave birth to a mutant child that burned to death from its power and was now considering aborting her current pregnancy. It was very good, and had wonderful art, but is now almost completely forgotten.

Hindsight lad

That mini-series was sublime. I've never read anything like it since. The three best mutant books of the last ten years or so were the X-Statix, NYX and the X-Factor mini-series.

[Ogrebear]

Here's an observation- in the Marvel U anything slightly different to Human norm is labelled a Mutant even if they don't have any powers so are all blind people labelled Mutants cos they differ from genetic norm?

What about paraplegics, the mentally or physically incapable? Steven Hawkings a mutant? Obviously those disabled by injury (Chris Reeves, soldiers) are not mutants, but victims, but if you where born that way then MUTIE!

To paraphrase the Shadowrun rpg game "you don't have to worry about the tanned guy next to you, but the blue Thing with hands the size of your head"

[Filthy Mutie]

Here's an observation- in the Marvel U anything slightly different to Human norm is labelled a Mutant even if they don't have any powers so are all blind people labelled Mutants cos they differ from genetic norm?

What about paraplegics, the mentally or physically incapable? Steven Hawkings a mutant? Obviously those disabled by injury (Chris Reeves, soldiers) are not mutants, but victims, but if you where born that way then MUTIE!

To paraphrase the Shadowrun rpg game "you don't have to worry about the tanned guy next to you, but the blue Thing with hands the size of your head"
I thought they were labeled "mutant" in the Marvel U because they have the mutant "x-gene".

[ZNOP]

Here's an observation- in the Marvel U anything slightly different to Human norm is labelled a Mutant even if they don't have any powers so are all blind people labelled Mutants cos they differ from genetic norm?

What about paraplegics, the mentally or physically incapable? Steven Hawkings a mutant? Obviously those disabled by injury (Chris Reeves, soldiers) are not mutants, but victims, but if you where born that way then MUTIE!

I posed a very similar question in post #7... If you haven't already -- go back to page #1 and read (re-read) the responses I got for the answer to your question.

[ExodusCloak]

I thought they were labeled "mutant" in the Marvel U because they have the mutant "x-gene".

My gripe that mutants who look like super models get treated unfairly as well. I think MU humans are as shallow as real humans (Of course this depends on the destructive power of the mutant).

[RolandJP]

My gripe that mutants who look like super models get treated unfairly as well. I think MU humans are as shallow as real humans (Of course this depends on the destructive power of the mutant).

This should be addressed int he X-books. Model mutants do receive advantages the visibly less attractive mutants are shown.

If Exiles is relaunched it should have nothing to do with alternate realities. It should feature Beast and a team of the non-human looking mutants.

[FeminineMystique]

While we're on the subject of minority parallels in X-Men...having re-read Grant Morrisson's run I can admit to be a little disturbed by some of the subtext around the U-Men. There shown as people who are into modifying themselves, wanting to "Change" themselves, being uncomfortable with who they are, being loners and outsiders...this could fit any number of real world parallels, the most obvious being transsexuals (Morrison even has them call themselves "Transpecies") but also people into body mods. And how does Morrisson show them? As being warped, sick people, quick to indulge in murder and ORGAN THEFT.

I've got to admit I got some squicky vibes from that. Maybe it's just because I know a lot of people, both in the trans and body mod scenes who've suffered prejudice and I'm being paranoid but that whole story arc had some really nasty "Look at how twisted these sick freaks are" vibe in its parallels with real world body mod practices. The way it showed people who wanted to "Change" themselves, either because they were uncomfortable with who and what they were or just because they wanted to, as being sick in the head left a bad taste in my mouth. And I expected better from Morrisson to be honest.

Still like I said, maybe I'm just being overly sensitive in this case and reading too much into things

[darknessatnoon]

While we're on the subject of minority parallels in X-Men...having re-read Grant Morrisson's run I can admit to be a little disturbed by some of the subtext around the U-Men. There shown as people who are into modifying themselves, wanting to "Change" themselves, being uncomfortable with who they are, being loners and outsiders...this could fit any number of real world parallels, the most obvious being transsexuals (Morrison even has them call themselves "Transpecies") but also people into body mods. And how does Morrisson show them? As being warped, sick people, quick to indulge in murder and ORGAN THEFT.

I've got to admit I got some squicky vibes from that. Maybe it's just because I know a lot of people, both in the trans and body mod scenes who've suffered prejudice and I'm being paranoid but that whole story arc had some really nasty "Look at how twisted these sick freaks are" vibe in its parallels with real world body mod practices. The way it showed people who wanted to "Change" themselves, either because they were uncomfortable with who and what they were or just because they wanted to, as being sick in the head left a bad taste in my mouth. And I expected better from Morrisson to be honest.

Still like I said, maybe I'm just being overly sensitive in this case and reading too much into things

Transsexuals don't steal other people's penises, so, yes, you're being overly sensitive.

[FeminineMystique]

Transsexuals don't steal other people's penises, so, yes, you're being overly sensitive.

Well I do realise that, obviously, I wasn't being QUITE so literal minded darling. What I was getting at was that the U-Men, in their goals and desires (NOT the way they go about achieving them) have several real world parallels and Morrisson paints them as sick.

Now if it was JUST the organ theft that was shown as wrong, I wouldn't be disturbed because I think we can all agree whatever your lifestyle, harvesting organs from still living victims is wrong. But Morrisson presents the very IDEA that these people are uncomfortable as they are, that they want to change themselves, as being "Warped". Not just HOW they change themselves but the fact they want to at all.

[darknessatnoon]

Well I do realise that, obviously, I wasn't being QUITE so literal minded darling. What I was getting at was that the U-Men, in their goals and desires (NOT the way they go about achieving them) have several real world parallels and Morrisson paints them as sick.

Now if it was JUST the organ theft that was shown as wrong, I wouldn't be disturbed because I think we can all agree whatever your lifestyle, harvesting organs from still living victims is wrong. But Morrisson presents the very IDEA that these people are uncomfortable as they are, that they want to change themselves, as being "Warped". Not just HOW they change themselves but the fact they want to at all.

They are sick. Just like the people who buy kidneys off of desperate immigrants. Now sit down.

[FeminineMystique]

They are sick. Just like the people who buy kidneys off of desperate immigrants. Now sit down.

Darkness, I get the feeling you're deliberately not getting what I'm saying here.

YES what the U-Men DO is sick. VERY sick.

But what they WANT is to be Mutants, to modify themselves because they don't feel "Right" as they are. And there's nothing "Sick" there.

Okay, for example. A guy wants to have sex. There's nothing sick there. To do it he abducts and assaults someone. That IS sick.

My issue with the U-Men isn't that Morrison shows that them stealing organs is sick. My issue is he how he creates a group of people who want to change who and what they are, then paints each and every one of them as an organ harvesting murderer with no redeeming features whatsoever.

[Filthy Mutie]

This should be addressed int he X-books. Model mutants do receive advantages the visibly less attractive mutants are shown.

If Exiles is relaunched it should have nothing to do with alternate realities. It should feature Beast and a team of the non-human looking mutants.

Morlocks, and other such times you get the "Mein Gott, Nightcrawler looks a screamin' demon!" treatment and such. It's not an ignored issue at all, and there are, uh, inter-cultural hierarchies based on class, creed, lineage, etc. (I doubt that's the proper terminology for it, but you get what I am trying to say.) Plus, you know, mutants have bathing suit parts like normal humans do and will act accordingly.

[darknessatnoon]

Darkness, I get the feeling you're deliberately not getting what I'm saying here.

YES what the U-Men DO is sick. VERY sick.

But what they WANT is to be Mutants, to modify themselves because they don't feel "Right" as they are. And there's nothing "Sick" there.

Okay, for example. A guy wants to have sex. There's nothing sick there. To do it he abducts and assaults someone. That IS sick.

My issue with the U-Men isn't that Morrison shows that them stealing organs is sick. My issue is he how he creates a group of people who want to change who and what they are, then paints each and every one of them as an organ harvesting murderer with no redeeming features whatsoever.

I get what you're saying. I'm not a moron. I just disagree with the sentiment motivating it.

Desire is not inherently good. Sometimes it's called commodity fetishism. In the 21st century even the body is commodified in ways that should be criticized (http://www.amazon.com/Homo-Sacer-Sovereign-Meridian-Aesthetics/dp/0804732183). Some of my best friends are commodity fetishists, but that doesn't mean they're not also assholes.

Also, the way you read bothers me. It's paranoid. It's binaristic. It's moralistic. Discovering the hidden fascism of the text doesn't make you seem like some sort of interesting detective. It's all about feigning some offended naivete in order to demonstrate how dramatic your unveilings are. I sometimes do the same thing, but only when attacking stupid texts (i.e., Chris Claremont ones).

[ZNOP]

I sometimes do the same thing, but only when attacking stupid texts (i.e., Chris Claremont ones).

And, yet more truth. This is better than Law and Order: SVU!

[FeminineMystique]

I get what you're saying. I'm not a moron. I just disagree with the sentiment motivating it.

Desire is not inherently good. Sometimes it's called commodity fetishism. In the 21st century even the body is commodified in ways that should be criticized (http://www.amazon.com/Homo-Sacer-Sovereign-Meridian-Aesthetics/dp/0804732183). Some of my best friends are commodity fetishists, but that doesn't mean they're not also assholes.

Also, the way you read bothers me. It's paranoid. It's binaristic. It's moralistic. Discovering the hidden fascism of the text doesn't make you seem like some sort of interesting detective. It's all about feigning some offended naivete in order to demonstrate how dramatic your unveilings are. I sometimes do the same thing, but only when attacking stupid texts (i.e., Chris Claremont ones).

I wasn't trying to do anything like that darling, sorry if that's how I came across. I was just being honest. And I'm certainly not trying to "Moralise". Whether Morrisson feels that way or not, it's his business. I'm just giving my opinion

And I agree that not all desires are good. But I just felt that the whole U-Men thing was a dig at body mods and the like which, like I said, left a bad taste in my mouth, because there's already enough demonisation of people like that from garbage like the tabloids here in the UK. That's just me personally giving my thoughts though, I wasn't trying to claim to be an expert of literary analysis or anything. Maybe you're right and I'm just WAY off base:tongue:

[darknessatnoon]

I wasn't trying to do anything like that darling, sorry if that's how I came across. I was just being honest. And I'm certainly not trying to "Moralise". Whether Morrisson feels that way or not, it's his business. I'm just giving my opinion

And I agree that not all desires are good. But I just felt that the whole U-Men thing was a dig at body mods and the like which, like I said, left a bad taste in my mouth, because there's already enough demonisation of people like that from garbage like the tabloids here in the UK. That's just me personally giving my thoughts though, I wasn't trying to claim to be an expert of literary analysis or anything. Maybe you're right and I'm just WAY off base:tongue:

It's my fault for reading your posts.

[FeminineMystique]

It's my fault for reading your posts.

Gee, thanks. Darkness, why is it even when I try and be civil with you, you have to treat me like I'm something you scraped off your shoe?

Still if that's the way it is, that's the way it is. Maybe the best thing to do in future is just not reply to each others posts, like you said. There are plenty of other people on CBR to talk to besides each other

[Joe Franklin]

Some minority groups can't be equated to an allegory for mutant powers determined by genetics.

You are born with genes that determine your skin color or your physical height for example, but there are no genes that you are born with that determine your sexuality for example.

Homosexuality is a bad comparison to mutants, because there is no homosexual genome.

[ZNOP]

Some minority groups can't be equated to an allegory for mutant powers determined by genetics.

You are born with genes that determine your skin color or your physical height for example, but there are no genes that you are born with that determine your sexuality for example.

Homosexuality is a bad comparison to mutants, because there is no homosexual genome.

I have heard neurological and genetics students at NYU argue over this. I was never sure who won that debate.

[Joe Franklin]

I have heard neurological and genetics students at NYU argue over this. I was never sure who won that debate.

Genetics wins. There is no homosexual genome discovered yet. If there is one, it hasn't been discovered yet by modern genetics.

[tetragene]

Some minority groups can't be equated to an allegory for mutant powers determined by genetics.

You are born with genes that determine your skin color or your physical height for example, but there are no genes that you are born with that determine your sexuality for example.

Homosexuality is a bad comparison to mutants, because there is no homosexual genome.

You are taking comparisons to mutants in a literal sense. What "races" or "hair types" discover their race/hair type during puberty and (often times) attempt to hide it to avoid being ostracized? What "races" had a disease that was initially believed to have been a "race-only" disease? What "races" can "hide" their race? The mutants' stories, situations and political/social handlings are what they "borrow" from real-world minorities, not the sole fact that they deal with "genetics".

also, they can't prove that their is a homosexual genome but they haven't yet been able to prove that their isn't one either, correct?

[darknessatnoon]

You are taking comparisons to mutants in a literal sense. What "races" or "hair types" discover their race/hair type during puberty and (often times) attempt to hide it to avoid being ostracized? What "races" had a disease that was initially believed to have been a "race-only" disease? What "races" can "hide" their race? The mutants' stories, situations and political/social handlings are what they "borrow" from real-world minorities, not the sole fact that they deal with "genetics".

also, they can't prove that their is a homosexual genome but they haven't yet been able to prove that their isn't one either, correct?

I think they've mapped the Stupid Gene. Apparently, Joe Franklin's samples were a great boon to our hard working scientists.

[7thangel]

You are taking comparisons to mutants in a literal sense. What "races" or "hair types" discover their race/hair type during puberty and (often times) attempt to hide it to avoid being ostracized? What "races" had a disease that was initially believed to have been a "race-only" disease? What "races" can "hide" their race? The mutants' stories, situations and political/social handlings are what they "borrow" from real-world minorities, not the sole fact that they deal with "genetics".

also, they can't prove that their is a homosexual genome but they haven't yet been able to prove that their isn't one either, correct?

not to get into this gene shit, but many people of a certain race have tried and successfully passed for another with hopes to catch less hell. colorism is still a huge problem around the world. and as far as disease, yeah that has been attached to certain races and still is even without proof.

it's a loose allegory as many have said and can incorporate many different aspects all in just one story. i just feel it's not done all that well and it's simplistic.

[durty dee]

Again People! Its An Allegory For all Types Of Descrimination!

[Greg Anderson]

Again People! Its An Allegory For all Types Of Descrimination!

Logic must not compute. Away with you! :mad:

[Flâneur]

Well I do realise that, obviously, I wasn't being QUITE so literal minded darling. What I was getting at was that the U-Men, in their goals and desires (NOT the way they go about achieving them) have several real world parallels and Morrisson paints them as sick.

Now if it was JUST the organ theft that was shown as wrong, I wouldn't be disturbed because I think we can all agree whatever your lifestyle, harvesting organs from still living victims is wrong. But Morrisson presents the very IDEA that these people are uncomfortable as they are, that they want to change themselves, as being "Warped". Not just HOW they change themselves but the fact they want to at all.
I think something you're missing is that the U-men didn't want to be mutants, they treated mutants like shit, obviously. The U-men wanted to become superior beings at the expense of mutants, who were seen as less than cattle.

Some minority groups can't be equated to an allegory for mutant powers determined by genetics.

You are born with genes that determine your skin color or your physical height for example, but there are no genes that you are born with that determine your sexuality for example.

Homosexuality is a bad comparison to mutants, because there is no homosexual genome.
I am glad that Joe Franklin is here on the boards representing the mentally delayed. I was concerned that they weren't appropriately covered in the mutant allegory.

Thanks, Joe!

[Filthy Mutie]

Some minority groups can't be equated to an allegory for mutant powers determined by genetics.

You are born with genes that determine your skin color or your physical height for example, but there are no genes that you are born with that determine your sexuality for example.

Homosexuality is a bad comparison to mutants, because there is no homosexual genome.

http://z.about.com/d/travelwithkids/1/0/w/C/coaster_330.JPG

[Joe Franklin]

I am glad that Joe Franklin is here on the boards representing the mentally delayed. I was concerned that they weren't appropriately covered in the mutant allegory.

Thanks, Joe!

You are most welcome my good friend.:biggrin: