FIVE WONDER QUESTIONS with MARK WAID!

[Gail Simone]

Mark Waid might at first seem an odd choice for this series of mini-interviews, but truthfully, the portrayal of Wonder Woman in Kingdom Come had a big impact on the way she was portrayed for a long time. I believe some of that portrayal is even in her character in the Justice League Unlimited cartoons.

Beyond that, Mark wrote a very powerful and lively WW in JLA during his run on the monthly book AND the beautiful oversized graphic novel, Heaven's Ladder.

Interestingly, Mark and I began our friendship in some ways over a disagreement over the final scenes with Wonder Woman in Kingdom Come. Additionally, when he had decided that he wanted to have a female villain in JLA, I became a ridiculous fangirl and created four female villains for him to use. Those ideas eventually became, 1) Mary Zero in Deadpool, 2) Black Alice in Birds of Prey, and the one he did acually use (and improve upon) The Queen Of Fables, who has become an enemy of Diana specifically, the evil stepmother who believes Princess Diana actually IS Snow White.

It's weird how the tendrils spread out.

Mark is one of my best friends and one of the best writers in comics, and yet, Wonder Woman has always been a challenge for him to write for some reason.

I asked him why.

[Gail Simone]

1) Okay, Mark, we've been friends for a long time, and most people might be surprised to learn that one of the first email discussions we ever had was me writing an obnoxious fan email to you about Wonder Woman's portrayal in the great KINGDOM COME, which you wrote.

Back to that in a minute, but first, I know you've said in the past that you have had a hard time writing Wonder Woman, but I think you did a GREAT job with her during your JLA run. SO let me ask you, what is it about Wonder Woman, first, that you LIKE? And are there any classic Wonder Woman stories that you did enjoy(Technically two questions. Be quiet!)?




First off, the truth is I barely know you and I'm constantly having to look up the spelling of your name. so dial it down.

But, yes, that was some of our earliest contact, and I still appreciate the kind words about KC.

What is it about Wonder Woman that I LIKE? This is a complex question with a bunch of answers, some of them not very good ones. The first dumb answer is that "She's a DC character," and that means I automatically like her. There are no DC characters created before I became an adult that I'm not loyal to.

I love her toys. Seriously. The magic lasso, the boomerang tiara, the invisible jet, the bracelets. She has cool toys. A magic lasso that's indestructable and makes you tell the truth--name me three other super-hero tools that are that covetable.

I like the costume, and not in a perv way. I like the colors, I like the paradoxical patriotism.

I L-O-V-E the way she's become an emblematic symbol of joy and empowerment to little girls the world over.

I love the mythology of the character--and I mean "mythology" in the truest folk-saga sense, as her history is every bit as inconsistent as any myth. But that didn't keep me from reading the Wonder Woman Encyclopedia from cover to cover when I was 14.

And, on an "I'm projecting this more than working off actual evidence" level, I love her message of spreading peace and rationality in an irrational, angry world.

That said, I've read every Wonder Woman story ever published (and was even an editor on the book for about an hour-and-a-half in the late 1980s), and I honestly can't think of a single "classic" Wonder Woman story or one that moved me. That's not a slight on the fine creators who've worked on the book, including my pal George Perez or you, whatever your name is, again; it's just a personal thing that I like the character in concept more than the actual stories. To me, the library of Wonder Woman stories is really kinda just one big red-and-blue blur. No offense. I think you, in particular, have done some great stuff with the character.




2) Ah, you're a flatterer. But the flipside is of course, what is it that you find more difficult to wrap your head around?





You and I have corresponded about this before, so forgive me for repeating myself, but I cannot wrap my head around the concept of Peace Through Fisticuffs. Writing Diana in KINGDOM COME was the first time I ever really had to think about the character from the inside out, and I came to refer to her home, at least to myself, as "Paradox Island."

I also have very little affinity for magic- and myth-based heroes, being the science guy that I am. Inarguably, my two least favorite Big Name characters are Wonder Woman and Thor, and they always have been. So that's a problem for me, finding something in her world that I can connect to besides her toys.

But, and this is not exactly your question but it fits in, the biggest stumbling block I have about writing Wonder Woman or getting into her world is that, unlike Superman or Batman or whoever, it's impossible to take Wonder Woman "back to basics" and rebuild on her from William Moulton Marston's foundation because his take on her involved so much sexual commentary and sexual politics that you would NEVER be able to carry that into modern WW stories without DC and Time-Warner losing their minds. Moreso than even Superman, the Wonder Woman world has really been bleached of its fundamental characteristics. I honestly believe that the key to my fully understanding Wonder Woman enough to feel like I "get" her is for me to figure out how to really, truly interpret in modern language what Marston was trying to say about men and women and their roles through the symbols of bondage and light s&m that peppers the first years of that strip in a way that's quaint and innocent because we're seeing it from a distance but which would be inflammatory today.


3) Again, it's funny you say this stuff, because as you know, I thought the WW portrayal in your JLA was very strong and fun, and the Heaven's Ladder was a BIG influence on me... I always wanted to tell a story with Diana and the Khunds because of that book. Let me ask it this way, if you could write Diana any way you wanted, is there a Wonder Woman story you would actually like to tell at this point?





Not until I can crack that whole psychosexual element.


4) Okay, it's odd when I hear people say that. WW is a little kinky, so what? We don't pull back from that with characters like Emma Frost or Iron Man or whomever, do we? But about Kingdom Come. Batman and Superman in that book both are a little wacky, but principled, whereas Diana becomes almost completely unsympathetic in the end. You know this has been something I disagreed with, but I could be completely reading it wrong. Do you think Diana's cause is at all just in the book's climax? She seems pretty cold hearted for the most part.






She is pretty cold-hearted at the end. I've said to you before, one of my failings with that story is that I never could fully understand Wonder Woman--and, so, she became a plot device more than a character. To some degree, that's because the story is really about Superman and everyone else is a "plot device" to some degree or another, but I do regret overcompensating to make her unsympathetic. I just really (without Batman around at his side) needed someone whose strident decisions could contrast with Superman's growing equivocations.


5) She does work as an unstoppable force to Superman's immovable object, that does make sense. Lastly, You already know I love your current work at Boom, particularly Irredeemable and The Unknown, both great, great stories with a darker side than we have seen from you, for the most part. Can you tell us a little about what books you're working on currently, and what's upcoming for you?






IRREDEEMABLE, with artist Peter Krause, is my BOOM! baby right now--the story of what happens when the world's greatest super-hero becomes the world's greatest super-villain, and what it takes to drive him to that point. Issue #6 just came out, and it outsold #1, so we're really taking off.

I'm also doing THE UNKNOWN and its sequel, THE UNKNOWN: THE DEVIL MADE FLESH for BOOM! with artist Minck Oosterveer, a supernatural detective story starring the world's pre-eminent detective, Catherine Allingham, a cross between Sherlock Holmes and Bette Davis.

At Top Cow, Kenneth Rocquefort and I are doing the CYBERFORCE/HUNTER-KILLER five issue mini that relaunches those properties. At Marvel, I'm still doing issues of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN and I'm doing a Dr. Strange relaunch, titled simply STRANGE, with Emma Rios that comes out in November.

And still writing THE INCREDIBLES for BOOM! Kids.

Man, I need to go lie down.

[Gail Simone]

You know, it's weird, but I just realized that Nicola Scott and I BOTH found KC to be the turning point for us to return to comics.

So that's a weird coincidence...if you hate Secret Six, BLAME MARK!

[troy2g1]

One of my all time favorite scenes with Diana was during Waid's JLA run (I think it was the "Man and Superman" arc) where Diana, being the Spirit of the Truth, is able to save the heroes.

For someone who supposedly doesn't "get" Diana, I thought Waid was spot on.

[americanwonder]

This was a fun interview to read - thank you Mr. Waid and Ms. Simone.

And, for what it's worth, I really like WW in Kingdom Come - great story, all-around.

[4PointOh]

This was a truly interesting interview. And in just five questions, too!

So far Grant Morrison, Kurt Busiek, and now Mark Waid have expressed interest in tackling the psychosexual elements of the character and expressed that it's difficult to write the character without exploring that part of the mythos.

[bfrank]

One of my all time favorite scenes with Diana was during Waid's JLA run (I think it was the "Man and Superman" arc) where Diana, being the Spirit of the Truth, is able to save the heroes.

For someone who supposedly doesn't "get" Diana, I thought Waid was spot on.

Mine is from heaven's ladder....one of my all time favorite WW images ever actually....riding that khund ship.....classic....

[nerites]

I just realized that Heaven's Ladder made me go back to reading lots and lots of comic books.

Wow. :-)

[FeminineMystique]

This was a truly interesting interview. And in just five questions, too!

So far Grant Morrison, Kurt Busiek, and now Mark Waid have expressed interest in tackling the psychosexual elements of the character and expressed that it's difficult to write the character without exploring that part of the mythos.

I'm going to echo Gails comment here: So WW is a little kinky. So what? Are the writers really that prudish that a little S&M in the characters background and past makes it "Difficult" for them to write her?

[Mark Waid]

Are the writers really that prudish that a little S&M in the characters background and past makes it "Difficult" for them to write her?

No, but Warner Bros and DC Comics might be.

[FeminineMystique]

No, but Warner Bros and DC Comics might be.

DC have put out kinkier stuff than anything seen in Wonder Woman

[4PointOh]

DC have put out kinkier stuff than anything seen in Wonder Woman

I think the problem is Wonder Woman and kinky stuff. Perhaps they believe (erroneously) that in order to keep Wonder Woman as a marketable, viable, all-ages merchandising brand, they have to invest her with all sorts of archaic, puritanical standards.

Bleh. :rolleyes:

[FeminineMystique]

I think the problem is Wonder Woman and kinky stuff. Perhaps they believe (erroneously) that in order to keep Wonder Woman as a marketable, viable, all-ages merchandising brand, they have to invest her with all sorts of archaic, puritanical standards.

Bleh. :rolleyes:

I'd hope that wasn't the case, as if it is it seems pretty stupid.

And also seems like a ludicrous double standard. WW twisting a guys head off is "All ages" but admitting there's a kinky side to her is a big no? :tongue: I really hope that's not the case but you might be ion to something darling. It seems to be a prevailing trend in the media. Violence is fine but sex? Oh heavens no! ;)

[4PointOh]

I'd hope that wasn't the case, as if it is it seems pretty stupid.

And also seems like a ludicrous double standard. WW twisting a guys head off is "All ages" but admitting there's a kinky side to her is a big no? :tongue: I really hope that's not the case but you might be ion to something darling. It seems to be a prevailing trend in the media. Violence is fine but sex? Oh heavens no! ;)

Welcome to America, sweetness; the land where routine violence on cartoons and the morning/afternoon/nightly news is perfectly fine, but Janet Jackson baring an adorned breast for a millisecond is evil.

[FeminineMystique]

Welcome to America, sweetness; the land where routine violence on cartoons and the morning/afternoon/nightly news is perfectly fine, but Janet Jackson baring an adorned breast for a millisecond is evil.

I do find it funny that here in the UK we have this whole reputation of being prudes. The whole "No sex please, we're british" stereotype, yet America, at least in the media, seems a LOT more repressed than England.

[AndyMangels]

Rather than derailing Mark's thread with a discussion on bondage themes, I started a new thread over here
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=9578583#post9578583

[lariatofhestia]

Mr Waid, I love you. :)


I credit this man's work for getting me back into comics as an adult. Kingdom Come was a tremendous story and brought back a lot of people into comics it seems. It dared to write flawed heroes and show them standing up and saying we made mistakes but we gonna take responsibility for them now .

I think taken in context WW character did serve its purpose in KC. I see her as the hardened warrior whose world got darker, whose mission failed as the League fell apart, her sisters exiled her, I think it was inferred she lost Steve her love...so yeah a disillusioned WW worked here.

A younger rookie WW should be optimistic and not so militant as what has she experienced that she has to be so rigid?That's why the JLU WW bugged the life out of me.


I loved Mr Waid's JLA run. Form the A Midsummer's Nightmare to the Witch Queen story to the one where the JLA split into two personas. Diana rocked in all those. So I don't know,Mr Waid, for someone who finds it hard to get WW,you sure did a great job to me.

Cause you work stands up. KC for example is a classic that will never die and you should be proud.

[Wonder Watcher]

This was a truly interesting interview. And in just five questions, too!

So far Grant Morrison, Kurt Busiek, and now Mark Waid have expressed interest in tackling the psychosexual elements of the character and expressed that it's difficult to write the character without exploring that part of the mythos.I agree, a very interesting interview.

Personally I had no problem with Diana's portrayal in Kingdom Come because it was an Elseworlds story. Yes, Wonder Woman was a 'hard' character in it but I just saw that as a "but for the grace of God(dess) there go I" take on her. Not a big deal. And it was an excellent story.

I felt that in the JLA stories and Heaven's Ladder, which I also enjoyed, she was written more in 'accepted character'. She had some great lines in both, which makes it surprising how little Mark thinks he 'gets' the character.

I'm also surprised (again) how important resolving the Marston elements seems to have become (or at least are now publicly stated as important).

I assume it's a wider question than just "Wonder Woman is into bondage" and is more the whole 'loving submission' aspect that Marston espouses.

I see no reason why it shouldn't be explored, although the apparent US general public opinion that anything to do with sex is ruinous of the nations children might prevent that happening anytime soon.

[BlackCanaryGuy]

Great interview! I think Mark hits the nail on the head as to why Wonder Woman is such a difficult character to sell for so many people, from her paradoxical nature to the psychosexual roots of her character.

[Stanlos]

I think the problem is Wonder Woman and kinky stuff. Perhaps they believe (erroneously) that in order to keep Wonder Woman as a marketable, viable, all-ages merchandising brand, they have to invest her with all sorts of archaic, puritanical standards.

Bleh. :rolleyes:

EXCEPT when they allow the license to appear in Playboy. LOL I am still scratching my head on that one.

I wonder if it is like the MPAA and sex scenes perhaps.

[guingel]

Hey all, got here from the Mark Waid forum, so I decided to post my thoughts here - I couldn't decide if they belonged more here or in the "bondage" thread. So I'll post here but quote some stuff from there.

It was mentioned that several authors have said that they feel they can't grasp WW until they grasp the psychosexual aspects, right? That makes me nervous, because i assume they're talking about the "Marston definitely felt that women should be dominant and men subservient -- not just sexually, but throughout all aspects of society -- and the attitude is prevalent in his work," and the "loving submission" thing that Black Atom brings up, among other things:


I'm glad to hear someone else talk about this. Having gone back and read Golden Age WW comics and quite a bit about Marston himself, I'm convinced he was using the book to promote his belief that a soceity "dominated" by women might be superior. The Amazonian society is a utopia because they practice "loving submission". Hippolyta's subjects willingly submit to her because they love and trust her--not unlike the relationships between those who enjoy bondage. Marston believed this sort of behavior was natural to women, whereas men naturally force submission, usually through violence. Wonder Woman was an alternative to Superman and Batman--heroes who got you to do the right thing by beating you up. A really progressive idea given the time.

That seems like a really good summary of Marston's ideas, to the extent of my knowledge. And indeed, at the time this was a progressive idea - but in modern times these ideas are no longer progressive - and certainly not feminist. So the thought of someone trying to make WW a more viable character by having her return to her more explicitly gendered, "psychosexual" roots, it makes me quite nervous.

I've never been a big fan of WW, but as a feminist I don't think returning to and exploring the roots of the character are necessarily the best thing for her. The idea that women are naturally inclined to lovingly rule and care for others is not feminist. So if a return to Marston's ideas means recasting WW in that role, that is not the way I'd like to see WW go. I just really don't know what those authors are thinking of when they say they want to tackle those psychosexual aspects.

[Gail Simone]

EXCEPT when they allow the license to appear in Playboy. LOL I am still scratching my head on that one.

I wonder if it is like the MPAA and sex scenes perhaps.

They did not. If you're talking about that cover, Playboy did NOT have
DC's permission.

[Meljean]

KC was my return to DC. Except for a few books, I'd pretty much only been reading Marvel, but there was so much about KC that I loved that I remembered why DC heroes were the first for me, and probably will be the last.

That said, Diana's portrayal always sat uneasily with me. (But at the same time, I loved that she was strong enough to stand toe-to-toe with the big guns (and I just really enjoyed the story overall.) And I absolutely loved that when she felt it was time to take action, by god she was going to do it.)

And although I didn't totally agree with that version of Diana, that story forced me to really think about who I consider "Wonder Woman" is, and why it didn't totally work for me. Because I could see the root of that character and how Diana might end up that way, but she also seemed to be missing the compassion that I always felt was fundamental to her character.

Anyway. I've loved so much of your work. Thanks for this and the great stories.

[Black Atom]

That seems like a really good summary of Marston's ideas, to the extent of my knowledge. And indeed, at the time this was a progressive idea - but in modern times these ideas are no longer progressive - and certainly not feminist. So the thought of someone trying to make WW a more viable character by having her return to her more explicitly gendered, "psychosexual" roots, it makes me quite nervous.

I've never been a big fan of WW, but as a feminist I don't think returning to and exploring the roots of the character are necessarily the best thing for her. The idea that women are naturally inclined to lovingly rule and care for others is not feminist. So if a return to Marston's ideas means recasting WW in that role, that is not the way I'd like to see WW go. I just really don't know what those authors are thinking of when they say they want to tackle those psychosexual aspects.

This is now the third time I've heard a writer remark about how hard it is to "get" WW without tackling the psychosexual themes inherent to the character's origin. I generally agree that devoid of Marston's themes, the character is left floundering for direction. However, I also agree with you, that Marston's original ideas about gender roles do reveal a pretty functionalist social outlook that seems dated today. I don't know enough about psychosexual theory and am also probably not an experienced enough writer to know what you'd do to update these themes, but I'd like to see someone try or at least sit in on the discussion about it.

[4PointOh]

This is now the third time I've heard a writer remark about how hard it is to "get" WW without tackling the psychosexual themes inherent to the character's origin. I generally agree that devoid of Marston's themes, the character is left floundering for direction. However, I also agree with you, that Marston's original ideas about gender roles do reveal a pretty functionalist social outlook that seems dated today. I don't know enough about psychosexual theory and am also probably not an experienced enough writer to know what you'd do to update these themes, but I'd like to see someone try or at least sit in on the discussion about it.

I think what's key to dealing with those psychosexual aspects is examining what it means to be a feminist in the 21st century rather than in 1941.

[Black Atom]

I think what's key to dealing with those psychosexual aspects is examining what it means to be a feminist in the 21st century rather than in 1941.

Well, obviously.

[4PointOh]

Well, obviously.

I should have posed my post as a question.

What do you think feminism means in 2009? Which women would you look to for examples of feminism? Condoleeza Rice? Hilary Clinton? Madonna? Janet Jackson?

[Black Atom]

I didn't mean that to sound as flippant as it did, either, sorry about that. I was going to add to it.


I should have posed my post as a question.

What do you think feminism means in 2009? Which women would you look to for examples of feminism? Condoleeza Rice? Hilary Clinton? Madonna? Janet Jackson?

Couldn't we say all of them are? The idea of casting off perceptions of what women should be seems pretty important to feminism as I understand it. And I could see that working for Wonder Woman, too, really. I'm reminded of the big WW book by Paul Dini and Alex Ross, where WW kinda goes "under cover" as different women all over the world. But I'm probably not the best person to ask.

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

So that's a weird coincidence...if you hate Secret Six, BLAME MARK!


Can I love SECRET SIX but blame him anyway?

[DHacker615]

Count me in as one of the KINGDOM COME kids. Reading that and having the Morrison-Porter JLA on the stands really brought me back to comics. I thought his take on the dynamic between the "Big Three" was as strong as anything I have seen.