View Full Version : What exactly is the Phoenix Force and how powerful is it?
seekquaze
09-04-2009, 11:38 AM
Marvel has for years had a system of abstracts that kind of work. We pretty sure know their function, power, and how they interact with the universe.
The Phoenix Force however is an enigma. Every new story about it seems to change it dramatically. Maybe its because it is the only cosmic entity the X-writers are willing to mess with. Maybe because it has been used so much they have to come up with new stuff to tell more stories. I'm trying to get clarity on it so could someone please answer the following questions:
1. In the earliest tales it was an alien energy entity that guarded the M'krann crystal. Later tales have had it be things ranging from the highest form of evolutionary mutation to the embodiment of stars to embodiment of all potential life to the embodiment of destruction and resurrection to God itself. So, what is it currently?
2. Is it an abstract being?
3. If it is why does it manifest in the universe and why an energy-form instead of an m-body?
3. What is the Ascension and how important is it?
4. Did it exist before the other abstracts and Galactus?
5. What is its role in the universe?
6. On what level does it operate? Universal, multiversal, omniversal?
7. Can it be destroyed by the Ultimate Nullifier?
8. Is it more powerful than the IG?
9. What exactly is the White Hot room?
10. What exactly is the White Phoenix of the Crown?
11. What makes that entity so special?
12. What is its connection to TOAA?
13. What is this "crown of Brane" I've heard mentioned?
14. Why does it take on hosts?
15. Is it what runs the universe and not Eternity?
16. At full power, on its own how high up there is it?
17. What is its connection of Jean Grey? Is she just another host? Is she destined to one day replace the current Phoenix personality with another?
18. I have heard that if the entity is somehow injured it will return to the White Hot Room in an egg shape to regenerate. What happens of the egg is attacked and destroyed before the Phoenix fully heals?
19. Where is the White Hot room located? Is it just a pocket dimension or is it located outside of the multiverse itself?
20. What is the "Judgement of the Phoenix?" If the Phoenix does not possess cosmic awareness or if it can be influence by hosts isn't whatever judgement it renders questionable?
thanks
Hazard
09-04-2009, 11:42 AM
The Phoenix force is whatever the writer in charge wants it to be. That's the easiest way to think of it.
The Big G
09-04-2009, 11:50 AM
Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes....wait as second thats the wrong force!
Henry T.
09-04-2009, 01:07 PM
This is my opinion based on trying to thread the various Phoenix continuities together....
The Phoenix Force is a "force of creation" and has been described as "the sum and substance of all that is" and the "mother of stars". It has also been described as the "Resurrection Force" in that it brings new life from old. The Phoenix sas been described as "the spark that ignited creation and that which will ultimately consume it".
The Phoenix Consciousness is derived from the psychic energies of the future unborn and of the Phoenix avatars themselves.
The Phoenix Avatars or Phoenix Corp are those with mutations for telekinetic and telepathic godhood and whose spirits were most closely carved from the force.
The White Hot Room is the afterlife and the base of operations where the Phoenix Consciousness resides and where Phoenix avatars go to do Phoenix Work while they await to be reborn. When beings die they go into the towers of the afterlife but Phoenix avatars exist outside the towers to do their work. The White Hot Room resides within the M'Kraan Crystal which is a nexus of realities. The White Hot Room is also a convergence of time (past, present, and future).
The Phoenix Egg or cocoon allows a Phoenix avatar to regrow a new body and be reborn after being dead and spending time in the White Hot Room for extended periods of time.
The Judgment of the Phoenix or Phoenix Work is the Phoenix's role in the universe to burn what needs to be destroyed or to heal what needs to be saved.
The White Phoenix of the Crown is a high rank within the hierarchy of the Phoenix Corp.
Jean Grey has been said to be a White Phoenix of the Crown, has the Phoenix mutation, and Death itself told her that the Phoenix force belonged to her and that her spirit was most closely carved from it. The Phoenix has been said to have known her since her conception and was shown to be an aspect of her 12 year old mind in the Classic X-Men #42 backstory. Jean's powers honed to their sharpest edge takes the form of the Phoenix raptor.
In the Phoenix Endsong mini series Jean was described as the Phoenix's "Heart" and "Self". The Phoenix and Jean Grey were depicted as pieces of a whole.
Rachel Grey-Summers is the daughter of Jean and thus inherited her Phoenix mutation. It has been said that the Phoenix has been with her since her conception and that it is drawn to her spiritual strength.
Jean and Rachel are often depicted as being One with the Phoenix force on a level that others are not.
Majinoaw
09-04-2009, 01:15 PM
Marvel has for years had a system of abstracts that kind of work. We pretty sure know their function, power, and how they interact with the universe.
The Phoenix Force however is an enigma. Every new story about it seems to change it dramatically. Maybe its because it is the only cosmic entity the X-writers are willing to mess with. Maybe because it has been used so much they have to come up with new stuff to tell more stories. I'm trying to get clarity on it so could someone please answer the following questions:
1. In the earliest tales it was an alien energy entity that guarded the M'krann crystal. Later tales have had it be things ranging from the highest form of evolutionary mutation to the embodiment of stars to embodiment of all potential life to the embodiment of destruction and resurrection to God itself. So, what is it currently?
2. Is it an abstract being?
3. If it is why does it manifest in the universe and why an energy-form instead of an m-body?
3. What is the Ascension and how important is it?
4. Did it exist before the other abstracts and Galactus?
5. What is its role in the universe?
6. On what level does it operate? Universal, multiversal, omniversal?
7. Can it be destroyed by the Ultimate Nullifier?
8. Is it more powerful than the IG?
9. What exactly is the White Hot room?
10. What exactly is the White Phoenix of the Crown?
11. What makes that entity so special?
12. What is its connection to TOAA?
13. What is this "crown of Brane" I've heard mentioned?
14. Why does it take on hosts?
15. Is it what runs the universe and not Eternity?
16. At full power, on its own how high up there is it?
17. What is its connection of Jean Grey? Is she just another host? Is she destined to one day replace the current Phoenix personality with another?
18. I have heard that if the entity is somehow injured it will return to the White Hot Room in an egg shape to regenerate. What happens of the egg is attacked and destroyed before the Phoenix fully heals?
19. Where is the White Hot room located? Is it just a pocket dimension or is it located outside of the multiverse itself?
20. What is the "Judgement of the Phoenix?" If the Phoenix does not possess cosmic awareness or if it can be influence by hosts isn't whatever judgement it renders questionable?
thanks
It was a good idea turned horribly wrong due to retcons, revivals, and rehashes. The 3rs that kill Marvel characters.
Nevets F
09-04-2009, 01:21 PM
This is my opinion based on trying to thread the various Phoenix continuities together....
The Phoenix Force is a "force of creation" and has been described as "the sum and substance of all that is" and the "mother of stars". It has also been described as the "Resurrection Force" in that it brings new life from old. The Phoenix as been described as the spark that ignited creation and that which will ultimately consume it.
The Phoenix Consciousness is derived from the psychic energies of the future unborn and of the Phoenix avatars themselves.
The Phoenix Avatars or Phoenix Corp are those with mutations for telekinetic and telepathic godhood and whose spirits were most closely carved from the force.
The White Hot Room is the afterlife and the base of operations where the Phoenix Consciousness resides and where Phoenix avatars go to do Phoenix Work while they await to be reborn. When beings die they go into the towers of the afterlife but Phoenix avatars exist outside the towers to do their work. The White Hot Room resides within the M'Kraan Crystal which is a nexus of realities. The White Hot Room is also a convergence of time (past, present, and future).
The Phoenix Egg or cocoon allows a Phoenix avatar to regrow a new body and be reborn after being dead and spending time in the White Hot Room for extended periods of time.
The Judgment of the Phoenix or Phoenix Work is the Phoenix's role in the universe to burn what needs to be destroyed or to heal what needs to be saved.
The White Phoenix of the Crown is a high rank within the hierarchy of the Phoenix Corp.
Jean Grey has been said to be a White Phoenix of the Crown, has the Phoenix mutation, and Death itself told her that the Phoenix force belonged to her and that her spirit was most closely carved from it. The Phoenix has been said to have known her since her conception and was shown to be an aspect of her 12 year old mind in the Classic X-Men #42 backstory. Jean's powers honed to their sharpest edge takes the form of the Phoenix raptor.
In the Phoenix Endsong mini series Jean was described as the Phoenix's "Heart" and "Self". The Phoenix and Jean Grey were depicted as pieces of a whole.
Rachel Grey-Summers is the daughter of Jean and thus inherited her Phoenix mutation. It has been said that the Phoenix has been with her since her conception, that it is drawn to her spiritual strength.
Jean and Rachel are often depicted as being One with the Phoenix force on a level that others are not.
This is the greatest and easiest explanation of this topic ever. Well done. (and bookmarked for future reference.)
darknessatnoon
09-04-2009, 01:26 PM
It's an easy way to make weak women look strong.
timbox
09-04-2009, 01:29 PM
With school starting up, most of us have enough exams to worry about without taking yours.
Swashbuckler
09-04-2009, 01:35 PM
I'm pretty sure Aunt May is a little more powerful then the Phoenix.
Kill or Cure
09-04-2009, 01:36 PM
It's a one-hit wonder, that's what.
It was a good idea turned horribly wrong due to retcons, revivals, and rehashes. The 3rs that kill Marvel characters.
Agreed.
Michael P
09-04-2009, 01:37 PM
What is the Phoenix Force?
Played out.
ProfeZZor X
09-04-2009, 02:02 PM
I say let Galactus eat pheasant, and let the Jean/Phoenix marriage be over with.
This'll solve the problem of killing her off so often, and bring some "normalcy" back to the X-Men, we get our X-matriarch back, and more sparks will fly with the Scott/Jean/Emma love triangle.
Marvel has for years had a system of abstracts that kind of work. We pretty sure know their function, power, and how they interact with the universe.
The Phoenix Force however is an enigma. Every new story about it seems to change it dramatically. Maybe its because it is the only cosmic entity the X-writers are willing to mess with. Maybe because it has been used so much they have to come up with new stuff to tell more stories. I'm trying to get clarity on it so could someone please answer the following questions:
1. In the earliest tales it was an alien energy entity that guarded the M'krann crystal. Later tales have had it be things ranging from the highest form of evolutionary mutation to the embodiment of stars to embodiment of all potential life to the embodiment of destruction and resurrection to God itself. So, what is it currently?
thanks
I try to deal with what's been printed in the pages -- speculation and opinions vary too widely and usually end in personal "tit for tat" insults.
This page from "Classic X-Men (http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showfaq.asp?fldAuto=44)" should answer most of your questions about the relationship between Jean and The Phoenix Force (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AUfE-RJEN-zDZGNwenJqenZfMTZocXI5bThoag&hl=en)
I hope your browser supports this page. If not I can email it to you. PM me.
I tried to figure out the complexity of the whole Phoenix Force thing.......I now get a headache when the topic comes up. To keep it simple, I decided to treat the Phoenix like I do God......I know there's a God, but also understand that I will never fully comprehend him/her/it.
The Black Guardian
09-04-2009, 03:21 PM
It's an easy way to make weak women look strong.
Actually, the opposite. Jean is much, much stronger without the cosmic parrot.
Leogam
09-04-2009, 03:33 PM
I would have much prefered Jean to remain a regular mutant with telepathic/telekinetic powers and never be associated with the phoenix again. I used to like her when she was a member of X-Factor and she was just plain old Jean with no godlike powers
The Thunderbird
09-07-2009, 01:08 PM
An overused idea crutch writers use as an excuse so they can make Jean more powerful then kill her off because they always want to make their own version of Uncanny X-Men 129 -137.
On the other side, at least the Phoenix makes it easier to bring her back.
LordAllMighty
09-07-2009, 01:37 PM
The White Phoenix of the Crown is a high rank within the hierarchy of the Phoenix Corp.
Not sure about this part...I don't think it been said what rank the WPotC has in the Phoenix Crops.
Everything else sounds fine though...:biggrin:
frostfire
09-07-2009, 01:43 PM
It's a demon!
Not sure about this part...I don't think it been said what rank the WPotC has in the Phoenix Crops.
Everything else sounds fine though...:biggrin:
The "White Phoenix" explanation contridicts everthing about the Phoenix Saga.
Henry T.
09-07-2009, 05:51 PM
Not sure about this part...I don't think it been said what rank the WPotC has in the Phoenix Crops.
Everything else sounds fine though...:biggrin:
Sure it is, the Crown refers to the highest point on the Tree of Life in Quaballah.
When Jean was in the Green Phoenix costume and healed the M'Kraan Crystal she was compared to a lower point on the Tree of Life.
In Classic X-Men #43, Jean also implies that the Green, Red, and White colors have certain symbolic meanings.
Notice in HCT that the other Phoenixes gather around Jean and I think the script in the HC says they are in awe of her.
Finally, Jean seemed to be special in the What If Rise and Fall issue where Vulcan slays the entire Phoenix Corp but for some reason Jean continues to exist within the Phoenix Force and emerges at the end in a white/gold Phoenix gown.
Sure it is, the Crown refers to the highest point on the Tree of Life in Quaballah.
When Jean was in the Green Phoenix costume and healed the M'Kraan Crystal she was compared to a lower point on the Tree of Life.
In Classic X-Men #43, Jean also implies that the Green, Red, and White colors have certain symbolic meanings.
Notice in HCT that the other Phoenixes gather around Jean and I think the script in the HC says they are in awe of her.
Finally, Jean seemed to be special in the What If Rise and Fall issue where Vulcan slays the entire Phoenix Corp but for some reason Jean continues to exist within the Phoenix Force and emerges at the end in a white/gold Phoenix gown.
With all due respect... Aren't comic books Syfy fantasy?
LordAllMighty
09-07-2009, 08:24 PM
Sure it is, the Crown refers to the highest point on the Tree of Life in Quaballah.
When Jean was in the Green Phoenix costume and healed the M'Kraan Crystal she was compared to a lower point on the Tree of Life.
In Classic X-Men #43, Jean also implies that the Green, Red, and White colors have certain symbolic meanings.
Notice in HCT that the other Phoenixes gather around Jean and I think the script in the HC says they are in awe of her.
Finally, Jean seemed to be special in the What If Rise and Fall issue where Vulcan slays the entire Phoenix Corp but for some reason Jean continues to exist within the Phoenix Force and emerges at the end in a white/gold Phoenix gown.
It means nothing....it's just a title until the writer say something else.:smile:
Parch
09-07-2009, 08:24 PM
It was a good idea turned horribly wrong due to retcons, revivals, and rehashes. The 3rs that kill Marvel characters.I don't know about that. I never really liked any version of it.
I think some ideas and characters are rushed due to deadlines or whatever, or they're just not good ideas. The problem is once created they're part of Marvel history because the fans won't ever let it be forgotten. Something created decades ago can be ignored or improved and I don't blame writers for trying to do that. I bet there's lots of stuff that Marvel wishes never happened, but continuity freaks in the comic fandom never let it die or change without freaking out.
I bet there's lots of stuff that Marvel wishes never happened, but continuity freaks in the comic fandom never let it die or change without freaking out.
In all fairness -- If it's not broken don't try to fix it. Continuity is what I pay for... So, when "Johnny come lately" strolls along and takes 10+ years worth of continuious storyline(s) and suddenly flips the script I have to say... W:evilangry:F?!? I have nothing against change... But, change should lean towards the betterment of the end product not the other way around.
darknessatnoon
09-07-2009, 09:45 PM
In all fairness -- If it's not broken don't try to fix it. Continuity is what I pay for... So, when "Johnny come lately" strolls along and takes 10+ years worth of continuious storyline(s) and suddenly flips the script I have to say... W:evilangry:F?!? I have nothing against change... But, change should be towards the betterment of the end product not the other way around.
Flipping that shit is an improvement. Flipping it out would be a major improvement. Morrison's Phoenix mythos is terrified of female clitoral orgasm like CC's was.
Take note people... This is why the supply of stupidity will always exceed the demand:wink:
darknessatnoon
09-07-2009, 10:10 PM
In two posts I've been smacked down by ZNOP and deadXMan as 'stupid.' I am undone!
quillero
09-07-2009, 10:13 PM
In two posts I've been smacked down by ZNOP and deadXMan as 'stupid.' I am undone!
I'll let tornshattered know.
the Hornet
09-08-2009, 03:45 AM
With school starting up, most of us have enough exams to worry about without taking yours.
You jerk! I almost spit out my drink laughing. I would have made you buy me a new monitor.:evilangry:
On another note and not very related to the original purpose of this thread, can longer readers of the 1970s X-Men educate me a little on the history between the pre-Phoenix Jean and Wolverine. As I understood it, Wolverine was atracted to Jean but did he spend enough time with her for any stronger feelings to develop for him? Or was his interaction with the Phoenix force (entity) in Jean's form the real jean Grey he fell in love with?
You jerk! I almost spit out my drink laughing. I would have made you buy me a new monitor.:evilangry:
On another note and not very related to the original purpose of this thread, can longer readers of the 1970s X-Men educate me a little on the history between the pre-Phoenix Jean and Wolverine. As I understood it, Wolverine was atracted to Jean but did he spend enough time with her for any stronger feelings to develop for him? Or was his interaction with the Phoenix force (entity) in Jean's form the real jean Grey he fell in love with?
Good question:smile: Logan's first appearance with the X-Men is seen in Giant Size X-Men #1 -- Jean leave the team in X-Men #94. She makes a few appearances after that and then dies and is reborn in Uncanny X-Men #101. So, the answer is Yes:biggrin:
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