Supergirl Annual #1: Wherefore Art Thou, Ron Troupe? (Spoilers)

[WorstThingUS]

Well, the backup feature gives us two things: an explanation for for how Lucy Lane rose so quickly in the military (as many surmised, her father did it and it is acknowledged as unusual) and what happened to her marriage to Ron Troupe---it's been retconned away.

And the issue is nothing special. I find the whole Krypton paranoia angle to be very forced and this does nothing to change that with a very clumsy attempt at "cold war" paranoia. Not to mention, given no one ever reacts to Red Kryptonite the same way why on earth would you use it a detection device? Prompting an unknown reaction in a superhuman doesn't seem like a wise idea.

The first disappointment from Sterling Gates and it's actually a compliment that I expected more from him.

[Slaughter]

And the issue is nothing special. I find the whole Krypton paranoia angle to be very forced and this does nothing to change that with a very clumsy attempt at "cold war" paranoia.

Ao contrario.... The Kryptonian paranoia angle makes perfect sense in my mind, specially after the events of Last Son. A bunch of phantom zoners (I think twenty five, to be exact) land on earth, exile Superman to the Phantom Zone, take over Metropolis, beat the Justice League and then curbstomp the military. All in one day. By the time Supes, Lex, Metallo and Bizarro appeared, they were pretty much poised to take over earth as soon Zod said the word. Now imagine the not-dead General Sam Lane looking at this on his screens and seeing one of the greatest cities in the world taken over like that. Imagine the US President (Jonhathan Hunt at the time, right? Or was that still Pete Ross?) seeing the images of the military and the Justice League being defeated on Live TV.

Now imagine there's a city-planet of 100.000 Kryptonians orbiting the other side of the sun. Not all of them are scum or crazy, like the Phantom Zoners. But they're super-powered physical gods without godly wisdow. The average Kandorian can carry mountains, maybe even small moons, shoot a beam of heat with the temperature of a nuclear explosion, survive a nuclear attack (I'm going with byrne-superman levels here when it comes to nukes) and move at near light speed. The average human can't even come close. We're puny, minuscle insects to them. Now, what you do to insects that are annoying you and biting your foot? You smash them with your immense physical superiority. Now imagine you're a demi-god and there's a entire planet full of annoying primitives who look like Kryptonians, but are five hundred years behind on technology and they have a entire planet bathed in yellow sunlight, all for themselves. A small part of their population, some millions, are meta-humans, who have more abilities than the common man. Of those, only a small group are above nuisance-level. The group of people that can fight a Kryptonian is very, very small.

Remember what Black Adam did to Bialya in 52? Now imagine this happening. Except "Black Adam" is actually a army of demi-gods, all at the same power-level. And "Bialya" is the entire earth, and the "Bialyans" are actually humanity being slaughtered by super-fast, super-strong gods that can fire heat beams, are invulnerable and can hear and see pretty far.

So I can easily see the United States governament preparing a initiative to get those aliens out of the solar system. Even if the Kryptonians are led by a immense concil of pacifists, sooner or later some K supremacist is going to have the brillant idea: "Hey guys, humans suck. We're gods compared to them. Let's conquer Earth, kill the puny earthlings and turn it into a Kryptonian paradise. Don't worry, this will only take a day." A small army of, say, 100 Kryptonians could cause untold damage. Europeans invaded the Americans and Africa, killing millions and turning Amerindians into endangered peoples and turned Africa into a poor hellhule. Their only advantages over them were horses, guns, steel, ships and germs. Amerindians and Africans were usually enslaved or submited in some other way. Kryptonians would't spare no man, except as pets, curiosities, scientific analysys and maybe meta-gene research.

[WorstThingUS]

^None of which changes this was a very poor execution in my eyes. Heavy handed and clumsy.

And the biggest flaw in all this is any Kryptonian can pretty much kick the crap out of all those guys. Red Kryptonite only insures an out-of-control Kryptonian kicking their asses. That little boy would have done them all in if not for Supergirl. It's like a bunch of hall monitors trying to arrest John Dillinger.

[IvCNuB4]

What I didn't understand was Gen. Lane's mention of Lucy's "abilities" in that flashback. Was he implying that she has powers (and if so, how ?) or was he speaking of something normal like leadership abilities ?

[CBikle]

Not to mention, given no one ever reacts to Red Kryptonite the same way why on earth would you use it a detection device?

It makes perfect sense if the Red K was General Lane's idea.

Having a Kryptonian suddenly become morbidly obese or develop a huge, bulb-shaped head or suddenly gain a lion's head in public, would only further illustrate how weird and alien the Kryptonians really are, which is what Lane wants.

Green Kryptonite would make more sense as a detection device, because it actually weakens and poisons them, but might invoke sympathy from anyone watching a Kryptonian in pain.

The Red K makes absolute sense as a combination detection device and propaganda weapon.

[galactica]

It makes perfect sense if the Red K was General Lane's idea.

Having a Kryptonian suddenly become morbidly obese or develop a huge, bulb-shaped head or suddenly gain a lion's head in public, would only further illustrate how weird and alien the Kryptonians really are, which is what Lane wants.

Green Kryptonite would make more sense as a detection device, because it actually weakens and poisons them, but might invoke sympathy from anyone watching a Kryptonian in pain.

The Red K makes absolute sense as a combination detection device and propaganda weapon.

That's a very good point. I don't know if that was what the writer was going for but that's great as a propaganda tool for General Lane. It's almost like "revealing" Kryptonians as monsters.

I wish we would see some public support for Superman, I'm sure it's there but I want to actually see it.

[WorstThingUS]

It makes perfect sense if the Red K was General Lane's idea.

Having a Kryptonian suddenly become morbidly obese or develop a huge, bulb-shaped head or suddenly gain a lion's head in public, would only further illustrate how weird and alien the Kryptonians really are, which is what Lane wants.

Green Kryptonite would make more sense as a detection device, because it actually weakens and poisons them, but might invoke sympathy from anyone watching a Kryptonian in pain.

The Red K makes absolute sense as a combination detection device and propaganda weapon.

But an incredibly poor offensive weapon as a bunch hospitalized cops can now tell you and I don't see how an effective general prefers "Hey, we lost, but they look bad" to "Hey, we won, period."

[Sean Walsh]

Really? The marriage - AND their kid - retconned? Unfortunate.

[CYOTI]

But an incredibly poor offensive weapon as a bunch hospitalized cops can now tell you and I don't see how an effective general prefers "Hey, we lost, but they look bad" to "Hey, we won, period." But they are not fighting a war, they were conducting a propaganda campaign. If they had wanted to find the kryptonian in the bank, they could easily have tracked them using the robot spy cameras and satellites that General Lane had in place instead of creating a scenario as in the comic that would result in a violent confrontation. The Red Kryptonite, the show of force etc was more to create an atmosphere of fear and distrust to allow Lane to continue his agenda than an effective means of ferreting kryptonian agents. .

[dupersuper]

They were still married as far as mty collection goes. :mad: You can always just say they got divorced and Ron has the kid since Mommy joined the army...they DID pretty much get married because Lucy was pregnant...that is seldom a great reason...

[WorstThingUS]

But they are not fighting a war, they were conducting a propaganda campaign. If they had wanted to find the kryptonian in the bank, they could easily have tracked them using the robot spy cameras and satellites that General Lane had in place instead of creating a scenario as in the comic that would result in a violent confrontation. The Red Kryptonite, the show of force etc was more to create an atmosphere of fear and distrust to allow Lane to continue his agenda than an effective means of ferreting kryptonian agents. .

...which still fails to make any of it more interesting.

They were still married as far as mty collection goes. :mad: You can always just say they got divorced and Ron has the kid since Mommy joined the army...they DID pretty much get married because Lucy was pregnant...that is seldom a great reason...

Ah, the 90's where Superman's supporting cast was insanely well-developed and everyone had a storyline.

[md62]

given no one ever reacts to Red Kryptonite the same way why on earth would you use it a detection device? Prompting an unknown reaction in a superhuman doesn't seem like a wise idea.

The first disappointment from Sterling Gates and it's actually a compliment that I expected more from him.

Excellent point. And I totally agree with you. This was Gate's first issue that I had problems with. But I still love his "take" on Kara. He writes her as a likeable teenager (with powers!).

[Dick/babs]

They were still married as far as mty collection goes. :mad: You can always just say they got divorced and Ron has the kid since Mommy joined the army...they DID pretty much get married because Lucy was pregnant...that is seldom a great reason...

At least they did not try to explain the retconne Like what Marvel did with the marriage of Peter and mj

[superchick]

Just because it wasn't mentioned in one short story that focused on Superwoman's relationship with General Lane doesn't mean the Troupe family have been retconned

[Jenos]

However, their relationship would definitely had a significant impact on Lucy's relationship with her dad, and considering the path her life took after her father's death, it indicates that its all been retconned out. Not conclusive, but still lots of circumstantial indicators.

[Retro315]

They were still married as far as mty collection goes. :mad: You can always just say they got divorced and Ron has the kid since Mommy joined the army...they DID pretty much get married because Lucy was pregnant...that is seldom a great reason...

Superboy-Prime punch to the belly?

[dupersuper]

Superboy-Prime punch to the belly?

Prime Shmime, I have their wedding issue in my collection and it's staying right where it is.

[WorstThingUS]

Just because it wasn't mentioned in one short story that focused on Superwoman's relationship with General Lane doesn't mean the Troupe family have been retconned

I'm pretty sure a marriage and a child would have had some impact on her relationship with her father. It's just gone. Unfortunately, it's not like it had that great an impact on Superman that its loss matters. It's just a bit sad they couldn't think of another way.

Oh, and clearly Lucy's Bizzaro-cured blindness is gone from continuity too. Or do we absolutely need to see it as not happening for that conclusion to be drawn? But I'm sure her vampire bride history remains. No reason to get rid of that.

[dupersuper]

I'm pretty sure a marriage and a child would have had some impact on her relationship with her father. It's just gone. Unfortunately, it's not like it had that great an impact on Superman that its loss matters. It's just a bit sad they couldn't think of another way.

Oh, and clearly Lucy's Bizzaro-cured blindness is gone from continuity too. Or do we absolutely need to see it as not happening for that conclusion to be drawn? But I'm sure her vampire bride history remains. No reason to get rid of that.

It clearly showed her working as a flight attendant; that jibes with the Bizzaro story, vampire story, Deathstroke story, et al. If they don't refute it, I'm happy (and if they do, I'll ignore them).

[Mat001]

Not every detail has to be mentioned. Matt Idelson said in the last Ask Matt Q & A session on the Superman Homepage that the first meeting of Superman and Batman won't be talked about. So that means that at the moment, "Man Of Steel" #3 is still in play.

Prime Shmime, I have their wedding issue in my collection and it's staying right where it is.

You shouldn't have to. Do what I do. In your collection, denote where events change. If you have "Birthright", then it should go after Superman #200. If you get "Secret Origin", put it and Action Comics Annual #10 after "Infinite Crisis" and before "Up, Up & Away". Thus marking the new beginning and all of the updated continuity pieces. This way, you don't have to leave out something because DC made retcons.

[Kent H]

Lane wants those cops to be hurt and killed, especially on tape. You can't create an anti-Kryptonian hysteria without showing them to be bad guys. And if a few innocent civilians get hurt in the process, who cares? They're just doing their patriotic duty after all.

[Mat001]

Not to mention that Squad K has Green Kryptonite rifles, which works towards taking down Kryptonians. Remember, Kryptonite does not cancel each other out. So a dose of red and then a blast of green would secure the situation. It just so happened that on this day, "David" wasn't reigned in right away. It took Kara.

[Captain Jim]

It seems that annuals are a big "hit and miss" thing anymore. I try to avoid them whenever possible. This summer's Action Annual was dreadful.

This issue wasn't anything outstanding by any means. Probably wasn't up to par with a typical issue either. But I didn't find it all that bad.

The first story was kind of "eh." Somehow I had the idea that it was supposed to have something to do with how Kara initiated the Linda identity, but it clearly did not. (I dunno; maybe they already covered that in the regular book; I can't remember offhand.) I kind of wondered about the Red K thing too. However, the post below makes good sense to me.

It makes perfect sense if the Red K was General Lane's idea.

Having a Kryptonian suddenly become morbidly obese or develop a huge, bulb-shaped head or suddenly gain a lion's head in public, would only further illustrate how weird and alien the Kryptonians really are, which is what Lane wants.

Green Kryptonite would make more sense as a detection device, because it actually weakens and poisons them, but might invoke sympathy from anyone watching a Kryptonian in pain.

The Red K makes absolute sense as a combination detection device and propaganda weapon.

The second story was a lot better and answered a lot of questions about Lucy and how she became Superwoman.I take it the suit is magical in origin? That looked like Mirabai hovering above it when it was being tested in the lab. Depicting Lucy as the rejected second child who was always trying to get her daddy's attention also went a long way in explaining her actions.

[Mat001]

It seems that annuals are a big "hit and miss" thing anymore. I try to avoid them whenever possible. This summer's Action Annual was dreadful.

This issue wasn't anything outstanding by any means. Probably wasn't up to par with a typical issue either. But I didn't find it all that bad.

The first story was kind of "eh." Somehow I had the idea that it was supposed to have something to do with how Kara initiated the Linda identity, but it clearly did not. (I dunno; maybe they already covered that in the regular book; I can't remember offhand.)

Supergirl #34 introduced the identity. The solicits for the annual just talked about how she tried to use Linda Lang, since we never got to see that in the book.

[Retro315]

Prime Shmime, I have their wedding issue in my collection and it's staying right where it is.

Fair enough. My lame joke aside ... I'm only a recent Superman convert (starting with OYL, in fact) ... did they ever show Ron and Lucy's baby born?

Miscarriage is not exactly uncommon, even with all the advances in medicine and healthier pregnancies.

And would easily add to the list of reasons why Lucy decided to enlist. If that'll work for you until we get another explanation.

[Mat001]

Yes, the child was shown being born. And was last seen in 2005 in the pages of Greg Rucka's run on the Adventures Of Superman. Which was also the last time Lucy was seen. Ron and Lucy left the titles in 2000 or early 2001.

[WorstThingUS]

Wow. The sheer unwillingness to accept that Lucy and Ron's marriage has been retconned away is impressive, especially considering no one cared when the much more substantial storylines of Jerry White were wiped away when Luthor was put back into Smallville and made closer to Clark's age. His storylines lead to the adoption of Keith, who also had more of a presence than Ron and Lucy's marriage and child.

Besides, it doesn't mean they won't still get together. I mean how long before Lucy begins her march to redemption against her crazy father?

[dupersuper]

You shouldn't have to. Do what I do. In your collection, denote where events change. If you have "Birthright", then it should go after Superman #200. If you get "Secret Origin", put it and Action Comics Annual #10 after "Infinite Crisis" and before "Up, Up & Away". Thus marking the new beginning and all of the updated continuity pieces. This way, you don't have to leave out something because DC made retcons.

No; I just put it all in the same spot (10-12 years ago naturally), if there's a direct conflict I'm completely unable to reconcile I pick my favourite version, otherwise I cram everything in.


Wow. The sheer unwillingness to accept that Lucy and Ron's marriage has been retconned away is impressive, especially considering no one cared when the much more substantial storylines of Jerry White were wiped away when Luthor was put back into Smallville and made closer to Clark's age. His storylines lead to the adoption of Keith, who also had more of a presence than Ron and Lucy's marriage and child.

Besides, it doesn't mean they won't still get together. I mean how long before Lucy begins her march to redemption against her crazy father?

I also ignore the Jerry retcon. Besides it can still work if Clark is Clarks older friend and Perrys younger friend who was in Smallville only briefly. Also, I don't care if Ron and Lucy get together in the future. I'ts not like I'm annoyed because I thought they were "destined to be together", it's just a senseless retcon for retcons sake. Some one on this board has a Peter David quote in their sig about how much retcons hurt suspension of disbelief in a shared universe that sums up my feelings on retcons nicely.

[WorstThingUS]

I also ignore the Jerry retcon. Besides it can still work if Clark is Clarks older friend and Perrys younger friend who was in Smallville only briefly. Also, I don't care if Ron and Lucy get together in the future. I'ts not like I'm annoyed because I thought they were "destined to be together", it's just a senseless retcon for retcons sake. Some one on this board has a Peter David quote in their sig about how much retcons hurt suspension of disbelief in a shared universe that sums up my feelings on retcons nicely.

Putting Jerry back in is the mother of all shoe-horns and makes what Perry's wife did seriously sordid. So much just depended on Lex and Perry being the same age and growing up together in Suicide Slum. That's all gone now.

[dupersuper]

Putting Jerry back in is the mother of all shoe-horns and makes what Perry's wife did seriously sordid. So much just depended on Lex and Perry being the same age and growing up together in Suicide Slum. That's all gone now.

How is an affair more sordid if the guy's 25 rather than 35-40? An affair's an affair.

[WorstThingUS]

How is an affair more sordid if the guy's 25 rather than 35-40? An affair's an affair.

Do I really have to explain to you the difference between sleeping with your neighbor's husband and sleeping with your neighbor's son?

[Mat001]

Doesn't matter. It's still sex regardless of age.

[Slaughter]

If we're travelling in retconia, lets ask where the hell is Lena Luthor, Lex Luthor's child. I liked Lena, really did. Sure, he traded his daughter in exchange for Brainiac's 13's technology, but it all comes with a bitter price. And in the end, he got a agent deep down in B13's operation, which allowed him to get her over his side and learn more about Brainiac 13 and his plans. By the end of Worlds at War, I thought he was going to be a more responsible father, which would be a interesting side of Luthor.

[WorstThingUS]

Doesn't matter. It's still sex regardless of age.

It does matter because it speaks to Alice's state of mind and the trouble in their relationship that she would have an affair with someone so young. And Luthor would have to be seriously young, as we've seen him still living with his father in Smallville after Clark has been active (though not public) as Superboy, but Jerry White was a legal adult when he died, so it was at least 18 years ago and Luthor's now in his 30's thanks to the retcon... it's seriously problematic to try and shoehorn this into continuity.

Not to mention sordid.

[CBikle]

But an incredibly poor offensive weapon as a bunch hospitalized cops can now tell you and I don't see how an effective general prefers "Hey, we lost, but they look bad" to "Hey, we won, period."

As we've seen, General Lane tends to be somewhat unorthodox; he routinely uses military resources and personnel to cause mass destruction in Metropolis and, literally, airdropped Doomsday right on top of the POTUS.

Sometimes I don't think you've actually read the comics you complain about, because, often, your complaints don't seem that informed or related to the comic at hand.

[Super Buddies Forever]

I think some of us are so unwilling to abandon the Lucy/Ron marriage because there have just been one too many needless retcons in the last few years of Superman. Between Birthright and Infinite Crisis, it's become a tangled mess, so we're just going to cling to when continuity made sense.

[CBikle]

Ah, the 90's where Superman's supporting cast was insanely well-developed and everyone had a storyline.

Honestly, the 90's Superman titles had some of the worst writing, half-baked ideas and piss-poor dialogue of DC comics at that time.

Case in point:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8YYsjmG8hNY/SfFhqVxu_nI/AAAAAAAAAP4/N5-cCt7LmEo/s400/blue+supes.JPG

To be fair, I could never get past the desperate, yet half-assed circus of bad story ideas like the one above, so I suppose it's possible that hidden beyond all the stupidity, the supporting cast may have been given good subplots....

...but I doubt it.

[CBikle]

If we're travelling in retconia, lets ask where the hell is Lena Luthor, Lex Luthor's child. I liked Lena, really did. Sure, he traded his daughter in exchange for Brainiac's 13's technology, but it all comes with a bitter price. And in the end, he got a agent deep down in B13's operation, which allowed him to get her over his side and learn more about Brainiac 13 and his plans. By the end of Worlds at War, I thought he was going to be a more responsible father, which would be a interesting side of Luthor.

Y'know, I think that's an interesting idea (and could still be implemented), but I wonder if Luthor isn't just a little too jaded by his life-experiences at this point:

- He had his intellect transferred into the body of a clone.

- He made a deal with Neron to live again.

- He watched as the Joker murdered Alex Luthor of Earth 3, who is kind of his son...

[CBikle]

I think some of us are so unwilling to abandon the Lucy/Ron marriage because there have just been one too many needless retcons in the last few years of Superman.

To be honest, I'm surprised that there's that many people as there seem to be, who even care about the Ron Troupe/ Lucy Lane marriage.

Go figure.

[WorstThingUS]

Honestly, the 90's Superman titles had some of the worst writing, half-baked ideas and piss-poor dialogue of DC comics at that time.

Case in point:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8YYsjmG8hNY/SfFhqVxu_nI/AAAAAAAAAP4/N5-cCt7LmEo/s400/blue+supes.JPG



I'm pretty sure that's not an instance of his supporting cast.

[CBikle]

I'm pretty sure that's not an instance of his supporting cast.

So Superman gets the crap storylines and his supporting cast get the Eisner-winning stuff ?

Interesting strategy.

[dupersuper]

Do I really have to explain to you the difference between sleeping with your neighbor's husband and sleeping with your neighbor's son?

Do I really have to overcome some misplaced puritan prudery about consenting adults having sex to keep my comics in order?

If we're travelling in retconia, lets ask where the hell is Lena Luthor, Lex Luthor's child. I liked Lena, really did. Sure, he traded his daughter in exchange for Brainiac's 13's technology, but it all comes with a bitter price. And in the end, he got a agent deep down in B13's operation, which allowed him to get her over his side and learn more about Brainiac 13 and his plans. By the end of Worlds at War, I thought he was going to be a more responsible father, which would be a interesting side of Luthor.

After he went nuts in Public Enemies, I'd imagine he lost custody.

It does matter because it speaks to Alice's state of mind and the trouble in their relationship that she would have an affair with someone so young. And Luthor would have to be seriously young, as we've seen him still living with his father in Smallville after Clark has been active (though not public) as Superboy, but Jerry White was a legal adult when he died, so it was at least 18 years ago and Luthor's now in his 30's thanks to the retcon... it's seriously problematic to try and shoehorn this into continuity.

Not to mention sordid.

Only if you don't play with the ages, and if you consider Lex in his 30's thanks to retcon and not thanks to cloning himself a new body.

I think some of us are so unwilling to abandon the Lucy/Ron marriage because there have just been one too many needless retcons in the last few years of Superman. Between Birthright and Infinite Crisis, it's become a tangled mess, so we're just going to cling to when continuity made sense.

qft

Honestly, the 90's Superman titles had some of the worst writing, half-baked ideas and piss-poor dialogue of DC comics at that time.

Case in point:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8YYsjmG8hNY/SfFhqVxu_nI/AAAAAAAAAP4/N5-cCt7LmEo/s400/blue+supes.JPG

To be fair, I could never get past the desperate, yet half-assed circus of bad story ideas like the one above, so I suppose it's possible that hidden beyond all the stupidity, the supporting cast may have been given good subplots....

...but I doubt it.

They went overboard with events after the Death/Return stuff, trying to catch lightning in a bottle again, but they were still quite solid.

[Mat001]

If we're travelling in retconia, lets ask where the hell is Lena Luthor, Lex Luthor's child. I liked Lena, really did. Sure, he traded his daughter in exchange for Brainiac's 13's technology, but it all comes with a bitter price. And in the end, he got a agent deep down in B13's operation, which allowed him to get her over his side and learn more about Brainiac 13 and his plans. By the end of Worlds at War, I thought he was going to be a more responsible father, which would be a interesting side of Luthor.

There was talk that she might've still been around, but I think that she's pretty much retconned out. She was only taken out in the first place, not just to help set up President Luthor, but because the creative team at the time didn't like someone that could make Lex vulnerable. So they got rid of Lena simple on that basis.

Only if you don't play with the ages, and if you consider Lex in his 30's thanks to retcon and not thanks to cloning himself a new body.

Given how things have changed, Lex doesn't appear to be much older than Clark. We'll see when "Secret Origin" #1 hits, but I'm thinking that Lex is now much closer in age to Clark than he was in "World Of Metropolis" and "Man Of Steel". Waid tried to have his cake and eat it, but it came off as absurd.

It does matter because it speaks to Alice's state of mind and the trouble in their relationship that she would have an affair with someone so young. And Luthor would have to be seriously young, as we've seen him still living with his father in Smallville after Clark has been active (though not public) as Superboy, but Jerry White was a legal adult when he died, so it was at least 18 years ago and Luthor's now in his 30's thanks to the retcon... it's seriously problematic to try and shoehorn this into continuity.

1. We don't know how old Lex was when Clark became Superboy. We know that Clark is at least 14. We don't know if Lex is 14 or 17.

2. Lex could've been 38 in the present day and take it back 18 years, that would put him at 20. So between 18 and 20, would be a reasonable age. And we know that all it would take is Lex just taking advantage of Alice who feels that her husband isn't giving her enough attention at home. Hey, it happens.

[WorstThingUS]

So Superman gets the crap storylines and his supporting cast get the Eisner-winning stuff ?

Interesting strategy.

I was citing the development of an extensive supporting cast and you're citing a major storyline. It's not the same conversation. Grind your axe with someone else.

[WorstThingUS]

Do I really have to overcome some misplaced puritan prudery about consenting adults having sex to keep my comics in order?



No, but if you think there's not a socially perceived difference between an affair with someone your age and someone half your age, I'd like to welcome you to the planet earth. Not even the French see them as the same.

[CBikle]

I was citing the development of an extensive supporting cast and you're citing a major storyline. It's not the same conversation.

Sure it is; the 90's Superman stories were crap, including the attempts at developing a supporting cast. One-dimensional characters like the Matrix-Supergirl, Steel and Connor Kent only became popular after better writers like Peter David, Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns worked with them.

No one cared or remembered anything involving Ron Troupe,Lucy Lane, Cat Grant or her son who was murdered by the Toyman.

Nowadays, there's a supporting cast (General Lane, Lucy Lane, The Guardian, et al) that actually is interesting

[Slaughter]

Steel was worked great in his series, in case you didn't forget. Until that other guy came and ruined it. Damn.
I think the best Perry was wrotten by Marv Worlfman. The Gangwar story-line is simply brillant.

[Mat001]

Steel and Superboy were both popular, hence their being in their own monthly books. It was only when the writers changed, that the problems set in. Simonson, Bogdanove and Karl Kessel did well with their characters. Ron Marz didn't stay on Superboy long and Kessel returned, but after his second run, the book did flag. After Simonson left, Preist took over Steel's book and ran it into the ground.

As to Superman's actual supporting cast, he had good characters. The problem was that there were too many by the time 1998 rolled around. Hence they were all dropped when Loeb, Kelly and DeMatties began their run. In the case of Maggie Sawyer, she was snatched up by Rucka. Prior to the creative team change over, the number one complaint was that too many people were in the books and it came off as Superman's supporting cast guest starring Superman.

Fans did like Ron, Lucy, Keith, Turpin, Maggie and Hamilton. But add in a whole lot more than that and that was too much.

[WorstThingUS]

Sure it is; the 90's Superman stories were crap, including the attempts at developing a supporting cast. One-dimensional characters like the Matrix-Supergirl, Steel and Connor Kent only became popular after better writers like Peter David, Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns worked with them.

No one cared or remembered anything involving Ron Troupe,Lucy Lane, Cat Grant or her son who was murdered by the Toyman.

Nowadays, there's a supporting cast (General Lane, Lucy Lane, The Guardian, et al) that actually is interesting

Yeah, we're on the fourth page because people are discussing the story...not! The Superman supporting cast was fleshed out in a way you simply will not find in another book, period and the reaction to Ron Troupe and Lucy Lane shows you just how deep that fanbase runs. You think no one cares, then you dismiss it and people pipe up. People have piped up for Lena, for Ron and if Bibbo disappeared you'd see complaints there too. And if Cat Grant is so uninteresting, what the hell did they bring her back for? Guess someone found her interesting. Finally, ripping on the 90's is a sad, snob cliche. There was a lot of good about the 90's, but four books a month is bound to result in clunkers with any character.

For those who care, we discussed the size of the cast awhile back:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=234997

And none of this has anything to do with Superman going electric because they were around before and after that. So yeah, it is two different conversations.

[jeangreydp]

Really? The marriage - AND their kid - retconned? Unfortunate.

Quoted for truth.

I don't understand why this couldn't have been incorporated. I happen to think this retcon takes away from Lucy's character rather than enhances. *sigh*

:frown:

CBikle, I'm going to have to disagree with you. The issue where Adam dies (Cat's son) is one of the most memorable issues I've ever read. I did care about the staff at the planet- I DO care about the staff at the planet.

[CBikle]

Yeah, we're on the fourth page because people are discussing the story...not! The Superman supporting cast was fleshed out in a way you simply will not find in another book, period and the reaction to Ron Troupe and Lucy Lane shows you just how deep that fanbase runs.

What fanbase ?

Half of the posts in this thread are from you.

[jeangreydp]

Superboy-Prime punch to the belly?

HAHAHAHAHAH! You should know, this made my day.

[WorstThingUS]

What fanbase ?

Half of the posts in this thread are from you.

Gee, it's like I started the threat and have a vested interest. Wait...

But I'm not one of the many people trying to figure out a way to keep their marriage in continuity and I'm surely not the person who put Guardian in a larger role, made Lucy Lane a villain, made Sam Lane the one of the primary antagonists of World of Krypton, added Maggie Sawyer to the Bat-verse and made Dan Turpin the host for Darkseid. That fanbase did that.