Favourite rant about recent Marvel comics

[AllisterH]

Here's what I'm talking about and why I get sometimes frustrated when people say "Dark Reign is too much".

Last Rant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_eepFvFbjc&feature=player_profilepage)

As they ask, what the hell are we telling marvel when good stuff like Captain Britain goes down yet we eat up Loeb?

I know there's lots of anger directed at marvel but I agree with those two guys. How again is this marvel's fault when they try great comics like Captain Britain et al and still fail?

What the hell is wrong with us

(Seriously, the upcoming Incredible hercules-focused "Attack on new Olympus" looks like it is a CLASSIC type of marvel storylne and best of all, it isn't being run by Bendis so people have no excuse NOT getting on board)

[spidarwin]

What the hell is wrong with us

Well, for starters, any time there's growth and development in a character,
or something which happened "long ago" is used to justify a decision made
by a character, everyone gets their little princess panties in bunches, and
screams, "Not fair! I hate character development!"

It's not like anyone at Marvel ever showed pride in continuity and development.

Why should fanchildren?

[Will.S]

Here's what I'm talking about and why I get sometimes frustrated when people say "Dark Reign is too much".

Last Rant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_eepFvFbjc&feature=player_profilepage)

As they ask, what the hell are we telling marvel when good stuff like Captain Britain goes down yet we eat up Loeb?

I know there's lots of anger directed at marvel but I agree with those two guys. How again is this marvel's fault when they try great comics like Captain Britain et al and still fail?

What the hell is wrong with us

(Seriously, the upcoming Incredible hercules-focused "Attack on new Olympus" looks like it is a CLASSIC type of marvel storylne and best of all, it isn't being run by Bendis so people have no excuse NOT getting on board)
Yeah I actually posted that in the Captain Britain thread too.

Elliot and Jose always have interesting viewpoints that at times I agree with fully such as this but at other times I don't fully agree with but find them interesting to hear nonetheless.

[JCurwen]

A lot of fans are just whiny bitches with an over-inflated sense of entitlement.

[Sighphi]

Here's what I'm talking about and why I get sometimes frustrated when people say "Dark Reign is too much".

Last Rant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_eepFvFbjc&feature=player_profilepage)

As they ask, what the hell are we telling marvel when good stuff like Captain Britain goes down yet we eat up Loeb?

I know there's lots of anger directed at marvel but I agree with those two guys. How again is this marvel's fault when they try great comics like Captain Britain et al and still fail?

What the hell is wrong with us

(Seriously, the upcoming Incredible hercules-focused "Attack on new Olympus" looks like it is a CLASSIC type of marvel storylne and best of all, it isn't being run by Bendis so people have no excuse NOT getting on board)

Is Marvel's fault because they didnt have at least 4 variant covers in the Cap & MI 13 book like they do with Hulk.

See!

[XPac]

The harsh reality is that most books fail.

And that's not marvels fault. I'm not even going to blame fans so much, even though they ultimately decide what comes and goes. I think that's just the way it is.

[Libaax]

Nah blame the fans that buy only the same old thing ala Hulk,Spidey and then complain why there isnt good new superhero comics.

[XPac]

Nah blame the fans that buy only the same old thing ala Hulk,Spidey and then complain why there isnt good new superhero comics.

I don't blame fans who aren't necessarily willing to buy new books... lord knows I can't afford to buy anything more than what I'm getting now (and I can barely afford that).

But if you're buying Hulk and Spidey AND you're not enjoying Hulk and Spidey, then it does seem kinda silly. They should try buying something else.

There are so many people complaining about New Avengers or Hulk... but the seem to be buying the books anyways. Its like there's some sort of fad where you buy books you don't like just to complain about them or something. If you're marvel, how the hell do you even respond to something like that?

[Libaax]

But if you're buying Hulk and Spidey AND you're not enjoying Hulk and Spidey, then it does seem kinda silly. They should try buying something else.

There are so many people complaining about New Avengers or Hulk... but the seem to be buying the books anyways. Its like there's some sort of fad where you buy books you don't like just to complain about them or something. If you're marvel, how the hell do you even respond to something like that?

Thats what i mean. Thats what kill of quality smaller comics.

When you cant afford more comics, there is always choice.

When i couldnt afford 15-20 comics monthly i just kept the ones i enjoyed most. Loyalty to characters is so silly and complaining about the series being bad is even worse.

I learned early not have loyalty to anything but good creators. Thats why i dont read Batman,Spidey anymore. The writers dont interest me. The heroes i can always read later.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Fandom is far and away the worst part of comics.

My time spent on CBR has, if nothing else, taught me that comic fans are, by and large, a group I'd shudder to interact with in real life.

[AllisterH]

Seriously, if you MUST know what's going on a title with a creator you don't like, just Bryne-steal it anyway at your local big box book store.

[RolandJP]

And isn't whining about fans being whiny..whining??

[Iron Maiden]

Marvel does in a small way feed the problem with all the variant covers which IMO inflates the level of true interest in a title because the retailer is required to purchase a certain amount of the "normal" version before they will let them order a variant. Sometimes the ratio was a ridiculous 25 to 1. But there are enough compulsive fans out there that buy them.

Then you have the happy confluence of a critical and commerical success like Thor and but then Marvel lets JMS take a walk because they have some event in mind.

[Blind pugh]

Honestly I think I'm just a series Jonah.

[Tinder]

It's a shame that Captain Britain got cancelled - I loved it, and at the time I was pretty stoical about it. It does seem to be something of a trend, though, that those books that I really, really look/ed forward too each month are struggling or out and out cancelled.

There are lots of different types of comic books out there - and sure they all have their place. Stuff like New Avengers, Red Hulk I tend to see as soap operas, and they are really thriving, but stuff like MI:13 and Agents of Atlas the books that really give you something more - they just struggle. TV is the same, soaps and reality shows, they are where the audience is, and so we get less and less good TV.

It's not just comic books and comic book fans, it's everywhere, it's just easier for the media to produce the mediocre, we are living in a Mediocracy folks - in more ways than one.

[monkeypool]

It's not just comic books and comic book fans, it's everywhere, it's just easier for the media to produce the mediocre, we are living in a Mediocracy folks - in more ways than one.

+1
Agreed completely.

Let me say this as well.
People can blame the fans, for the cancellation of good series, and they will obviously be right to do so, at least to a degree; but the comic book company itself should also get a VERY large share of the blame, since it doesn't do a good job of promoting some of these books at all.

Unless you just happen to own, or work in a comic book store, or you have tons of time and money to spend looking at each and every bloody title that's out there, to find the really good ones, there's just no way to know.

I have a limited budget, if I had an unlimited budget, I'm quite certain that I would spend tons of money on every comic series I can get my hands on, because I'm a geek who just cannot get enough of reading comics...any comics pretty much.

But, since I don't have an unlimited budget, I have to make a decision each month on what to buy and what not to buy.
First I buy my favorites, which right now are Deadpool and Green Lantern.
Then I look for series which I think will be well done, or which I have heard (by word of mouth primarily) are well done series; and I get what I can afford to buy.

Which apparently, makes me a lousy fanboy, who is personally responsible for the cancellation of such great series as MI13 right? After all I admit I didn't spend my money on that series, but instead sunk it into fan faves like Deadpool.

But does it really make me a fanboy, who is responsible for a good series getting cancelled, just because I happen to love Deadpool and think he's hilarious, and buy him first, before buying Captain Brittain, a character who I've never really cared about at all?

Does it make me a fanboy, that although I'm sure I would REALLY enjoy the MI13 series, when I only have so much money to spend on comics, I buy Green Lantern first, because I already know for a fact that I LOVE Green Lantern comics, and want to know what happens next?

Or how about newbies to comics, or those people who have only a tentative interest in the comic book world?
Are they automatically fanboys because they tend to gravitate towards comic books which feature heroes they have heard of, and know a little bit about, or maybe have seen in a movie, and already know that they are somewhat interested in reading about?
Is it their fault that MI13, which is probably a MUCH better series than whichever Wolverine comic book they end up buying, got cancelled?

It's just too easy to blame those stupid fanboys, and stupid newbies who didn't know enough to spend their money on a more eclectic, leet series such as MI13; and shake our fist at the average comic book buyer, who was not, "in the know" about which comic book series was approved by the elite-snob comic book reader.

Look, I totally get what those two guys are saying, and I completely agree that too often very good series which SHOULD attract a much larger audience, for some reason just don't.
I completely understand and agree with the frustration they feel, as they see yet another good series get cancelled, just so that we can see yet another completely unnecessary Wolverine or Hulk or Deadpool or X Title book out there.
I get it, I understand it, but frankly...I refuse to take all the blame for it.

Marvel should do a MUCH better job of advertising the really good series, and they should bloody well stick with the really good titles a bit longer.
Marvel should stop flooding the market with excess titles of popular heroes and instead focus on making the series which are already out there better.
They should...but of course, in the end, money talks.

[how to murder the earth]

I'm probably guilty of whatever the charge here is, because I heard nothing but good things about Captain Britain and I never picked it up. I think I must have some kind of mental block where I only care about the characters I liked as a kid. In a way, though, I think Marvel is to blame, because if you've got a creative team doing brilliant work with characters no one cares about, why not move them to a book that people could reasonably be expected to read? Captain Britain and MI13 had "critically acclaimed failure" written all over it from the first issue, whilst an utter hack like Jeph Loeb is allowed to run roughshot over the entire Ultimate imprint because he has a name people recognize from ten years ago.

I hope that Paul Cornell is rewarded for the accolades he's gathered with a shot at a marquee character, but probably Marvel will just go on publishing 18 horrible Daniel Way comics or whatever

[monkeypool]

I'm probably guilty of whatever the charge here is, because I heard nothing but good things about Captain Britain and I never picked it up. I think I must have some kind of mental block where I only care about the characters I liked as a kid. In a way, though, I think Marvel is to blame, because if you've got a creative team doing brilliant work with characters no one cares about, why not move them to a book that people could reasonably be expected to read? Captain Britain and MI13 had "critically acclaimed failure" written all over it from the first issue, whilst an utter hack like Jeph Loeb is allowed to run roughshot over the entire Ultimate imprint because he has a name people recognize from ten years ago.

I hope that Paul Cornell is rewarded for the accolades he's gathered with a shot at a marquee character, but probably Marvel will just go on publishing 18 horrible Daniel Way comics or whatever

+1
The only place I differ from what you said is, I hadn't really heard that MI13 was a really great title. If I had I would have been likely to pick it up.

"critically acclaimed failure written all over it from the first issue", is exactly right, but why?
I submit that the fans aren't the only ones responsible for that, but in fact Marvel is even more to blame, for their lack of effective advertising of such a good series.
Marvel needs to stop hyping what is already popular, and what people already like...to me that's just a stupid waste of time. People will already buy Wolverine or whatever, without it being advertised over and over. I'd never erally heard much about MI13. For that matter, there are plenty of titles I've just accidentally sort of picked up over the years, which I've just loved, but had never really heard talked about, or seen advertised.

I think Marvel just doesn't get it sometimes.

[Will.S]

I'm probably guilty of whatever the charge here is, because I heard nothing but good things about Captain Britain and I never picked it up. I think I must have some kind of mental block where I only care about the characters I liked as a kid. In a way, though, I think Marvel is to blame, because if you've got a creative team doing brilliant work with characters no one cares about, why not move them to a book that people could reasonably be expected to read? Captain Britain and MI13 had "critically acclaimed failure" written all over it from the first issue, whilst an utter hack like Jeph Loeb is allowed to run roughshot over the entire Ultimate imprint because he has a name people recognize from ten years ago.

I hope that Paul Cornell is rewarded for the accolades he's gathered with a shot at a marquee character, but probably Marvel will just go on publishing 18 horrible Daniel Way comics or whateverWell Cornell and Kirk are being given Dark X-Men so fans of Captain Britian and MI 13 might check that out even though it doesn't star the same characters.

[dirtydozen]

I think the best point they made as to why Captain Britain failed comes around 8:30. The fact that the heroes in that book wanted to be heroes without killing and actually contemplated the moral consequences of their actions is too much for a lot of younger readers. I've recently gotten back into comics after a looooong time off, Age of Apocalypse being the last thing I remember. I picked up a bunch of Secret Invasion titles while getting back in and it was basically just a skrull blender with skrulls getting killed and mutilated in various gruesome ways. You got heroes like Hawkeye or Miss Marvel killing skrulls in cold blood and there's no consequences or even discussion about it. The skrull queen gets a bullet in her head by Norman Osborn and that solves the invasion.

Whether it makes sense or not, when you cross that threshold of killing someone or something to solve a problem you can't ever go back to a less violent approach. In this day and age violence, most of it mindless, is everywhere in television and movies and people still buy into it. I don't see why comics should be any different. People want mindless fun as opposed to a well-written masterpiece.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Well Cornell and Kirk are being given Dark X-Men so fans of Captain Britian and MI 13 might check that out even though it doesn't star the same characters.

I'm certainly going to pick it up. Paul Cornell and Leonard Kirk are a great pairing and if their Dark X-Men is anywhere near the quality of Captain Britain & MI13 then I'll certainly be on board for the long-haul.

[monkeypool]

I think the best point they made as to why Captain Britain failed comes around 8:30. The fact that the heroes in that book wanted to be heroes without killing and actually contemplated the moral consequences of their actions is too much for a lot of younger readers. I've recently gotten back into comics after a looooong time off, Age of Apocalypse being the last thing I remember. I picked up a bunch of Secret Invasion titles while getting back in and it was basically just a skrull blender with skrulls getting killed and mutilated in various gruesome ways. You got heroes like Hawkeye or Miss Marvel killing skrulls in cold blood and there's no consequences or even discussion about it. The skrull queen gets a bullet in her head by Norman Osborn and that solves the invasion.

Whether it makes sense or not, when you cross that threshold of killing someone or something to solve a problem you can't ever go back to a less violent approach. In this day and age violence, most of it mindless, is everywhere in television and movies and people still buy into it. I don't see why comics should be any different. People want mindless fun as opposed to a well-written masterpiece.

Excellent points!
It's simply one of those unfortunate things about the age we live in, that discussions of philosophy, right and wrong, morality, are considered boring, and quick solution politics, are more the order of the day.

[mikekerr3]

A lot of fans are just whiny bitches with an over-inflated sense of entitlement.

They are called customers, they get to talk about the products they pay for and ask for what threy want for their money:rolleyes:

[yadadaimhollaing]

Personally I don't care how critically acclaimed a series is, if I don't care about the characters why would I suddenly develop a connection to these series?

[Frank]

Fandom is far and away the worst part of comics.

My time spent on CBR has, if nothing else, taught me that comic fans are, by and large, a group I'd shudder to interact with in real life.

I don't think people act on message boards the way they act in real life.

[Frank]

I think the best point they made as to why Captain Britain failed comes around 8:30. The fact that the heroes in that book wanted to be heroes without killing and actually contemplated the moral consequences of their actions is too much for a lot of younger readers. I've recently gotten back into comics after a looooong time off, Age of Apocalypse being the last thing I remember. I picked up a bunch of Secret Invasion titles while getting back in and it was basically just a skrull blender with skrulls getting killed and mutilated in various gruesome ways. You got heroes like Hawkeye or Miss Marvel killing skrulls in cold blood and there's no consequences or even discussion about it. The skrull queen gets a bullet in her head by Norman Osborn and that solves the invasion.

Whether it makes sense or not, when you cross that threshold of killing someone or something to solve a problem you can't ever go back to a less violent approach. In this day and age violence, most of it mindless, is everywhere in television and movies and people still buy into it. I don't see why comics should be any different. People want mindless fun as opposed to a well-written masterpiece.

I disagree that the reason the Captain Britain book failed it's because heroes were not killing. I have picked what 3 issues of Captain Britain? And dropped it not because the characters were not nasty enough compared to Secret Invasion. If anything, the way Hawkeye acted in SI, it made me drop New Avengers. Because I realised Bendis didn't know what he was doing.

[mikekerr3]

I

Whether it makes sense or not, when you cross that threshold of killing someone or something to solve a problem you can't ever go back to a less violent approach. In this day and age violence, most of it mindless, is everywhere in television and movies and people still buy into it. I don't see why comics should be any different. People want mindless fun as opposed to a well-written masterpiece.


BS soldiers and cops do it all the time, using the appropriate level of force is what counts, sometimes it a punch in the face sometimes it's a bullet in the head..

How does killing someone in a book prevent it it from being a masterpiece anyway?

[TOAA]

BS soldiers and cops do it all the time, using the appropriate level of force is what counts, sometimes it a punch in the face sometimes it's a bullet in the head..

I think thats the whole point why it was called mindless killing.

[xnef1025]

Personally I don't care how critically acclaimed a series is, if I don't care about the characters why would I suddenly develop a connection to these series?
But you didn't pop out of the womb with a personal connection to Spider-Man or the X-Men or whatever it is that floats your boat. At some point you read about the character(s) you now feel personally connected to for the first time.

Not everything in that rant worked, but the point that people are complaining that 5 of the 6 books they buy about the same character(s) suck, but still continue to buy, and then bitch about how they don't have enough money to try something new is completly valid. The completist mind set is not the only factor that causes good books to get cancelled, but it is one.

[adamantiumhip]

A lot of fans are just whiny bitches with an over-inflated sense of entitlement.

That's the truth right there.

Fans make the mistake sometimes of thinking that because they didn't like something, it must be crap. Well obviously people still buy Loeb's stuff, so someone must be enjoying it to keep buying it.

I also don't see why people have such a big deal with big events every year. I feel it's great to see titles where all the marvel heroes get together regularly, and it allows for easier continuity (how skrull invasion led to dark reign for example) and there are some fantastic ideas that these cross overs introduce.

I don't get the Bendis hate either. I mean his stuff can be hit and miss, but his worst stuff I have read has been average, not terrible, and when he's on form he is great.

[Kylun123]

My favorite is the "Dark Reign - an Event or a Status-Quo" . . . b/c it's just a game of semantics, and the issues people have with Events applies all the same.

[XPac]

I think the best point they made as to why Captain Britain failed comes around 8:30. The fact that the heroes in that book wanted to be heroes without killing and actually contemplated the moral consequences of their actions is too much for a lot of younger readers. I've recently gotten back into comics after a looooong time off, Age of Apocalypse being the last thing I remember. I picked up a bunch of Secret Invasion titles while getting back in and it was basically just a skrull blender with skrulls getting killed and mutilated in various gruesome ways. You got heroes like Hawkeye or Miss Marvel killing skrulls in cold blood and there's no consequences or even discussion about it. The skrull queen gets a bullet in her head by Norman Osborn and that solves the invasion.

Whether it makes sense or not, when you cross that threshold of killing someone or something to solve a problem you can't ever go back to a less violent approach. In this day and age violence, most of it mindless, is everywhere in television and movies and people still buy into it. I don't see why comics should be any different. People want mindless fun as opposed to a well-written masterpiece.

I don't think can really say fans today want particularly any ONE type of book.

There are fans that dig a Wolverine, and there are fans that will dig a Spider-Man. There are fans that will will buy a complex story like Brubakers Cap or JMS's Thor, and there are fans that will dig a simple (some would argue mindless) romp like Loebs Hulk book.

Sometimes things click and sometimes they don't. We do have to remember that MOST book fail, regardless of the writing style used. If you haven't been around for decades, you likely won't be around decades from now. That's just how it is. Captain Britian PROBABLY would have been cancelled regardless of whether it was a big smash fest like Hulk or if it were the next Watchmen.

To a degree, there are A list creative teams that will increase the likelihood of sucess... and established characters more than likely will continue to be published. Outside of that, it's a crap shoot. No one formula will gurantee sucess... that's why most books don't achieve sucess.

[yadadaimhollaing]

my favorite actual rant is im boycotting spiderman until the marriage is restored http://209.85.48.10/2939/3/emo/SmlyROFL.gif