Should the FF roster be a lot more changeable?

[JulianPerez]

I've always thought the permanence of the FF roster (Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben) kept the characters from really growing and changing. As long as Reed and Sue are there, Ben and Johnny never really seem to grow up or be anything less like irresponsible kids: it's built into the nature of their relationship.

One of the things I like about the changeability of the Avengers roster is how it lets characters be different. For instance, when Hawkeye started up Avengers West Coast, we finally saw how he as a character had "done good," and was now an adult instead of an irritating loudmouth. Hawkeye's run on AWC so changed him that even when he went back to the regular Avengers, he was a very proud person. He used to lead an Avengers team, so how can he go back to hanging on Captain America's every word?

I always liked Englehart's FF, because he realized that the roster kept the characters from developing. I especially loved what he did with the Thing: away from Reed having to make all the tough choices, Ben had to rise to the occasion and we saw a very different side to his personality than we usually do. Ben isn't just a bruiser, he's actually a very smart guy.

I found the permanence of the FF roster pretty surprising considering how many great supporting cast members that book has. The Inhumans (who have produced two FF members on extremely temporary basis, Medusa and Crystal), She-Hulk, Luke Cage...they all made pretty good temporary members that changed the dynamic of the team. If the FF is a "family," families should grow sometimes, admit and adopt new people. I always liked Luke Cage in particular: he was hired by the FF so they'd have some extra muscle, and obviously he and Ben didn't like each other.

I also always liked Sharon Ventura and it's a real crying shame she's been forgotten. Her character arc was interrupted mid-storyline, and she and the Thing had a real love affair that gave her a will to live and finally put some companionship into the Thing's life.

Plus, and I feel gauche for even mentioning this, but they can actually be intimate physically. That's always been the unspoken barrier between Ben and Alicia.

What about Namorita? Yes, I know she's dead, but she was a very different kind of person than Namor was, without his grudges and temper.

For that matter, what about Namor himself? He would make a very good FF member because of how surprising that would be, but underneath it all he's actually got a lot of honor and respect for the FF. A guy like that would really change the dynamic of a team.

[Sighphi]

I've always thought the permanence of the FF roster (Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben) kept the characters from really growing and changing.

This should be backwards.
The fact that it's this same folks should have then develop more that any other team because they have been through a lot of crap together but writers seem to just reset everything back to their original cliche characterizations.

Even little stuff like Sue dying he hair black for a bit because she felt like it. Seriously, when was the last time that the comic brought up a Sue hair change!!!

[XPac]

I think it's fun to mess with the formula now and then... but honestly I think the core of the book has been one of the books strengths.

The concept of this book is a family, not just a bunch of heroes working together. If you start subbing people in and out, then it's simply a different book. It becomes a regular superhero book rather than a book about comics first family.

[The Shadow]

I think it's fun to mess with the formula now and then... but honestly I think the core of the book has been one of the books strengths.

The concept of this book is a family, not just a bunch of heroes working together. If you start subbing people in and out, then it's simply a different book. It becomes a regular superhero book rather than a book about comics first family.
Perfectly said! :smile:

[JulianPerez]

I always thought John Byrne brought HERBIE into the book in a pretty innovative way: he was a character that we, the reader hated, but that the characters in the comic also hated. The Thing's reaction to Reed building HERBIE was priceless.

Reed: "I got the idea from the cartoon about our adventures."

Thing: "Stretcho, in case you hadn't noticed, everybody hated the robot. I just know he's going to be irritating in real-life too..."

[Will.S]

I'd like to see more focus slowly go onto the kids since the brother/sister dynamic is really fun and interesting as it's been in the Dark Reign books and it's different since Valeria is actually the smart one.

[The Black Guardian]

I've always thought the permanence of the FF roster (Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben) kept the characters from really growing and changing. As long as Reed and Sue are there, Ben and Johnny never really seem to grow up or be anything less like irresponsible kids: it's built into the nature of their relationship.
I agree. I really don't think any Marvel characters have been as hobbled just to fit the team's concept as the FF have. Even families rarely stick this close together for this long. There was a time when I really enjoyed reading the book, but the characters were so stuck that they became unrelatable to me. Ben is about the only one that I have any respect for anymore.

[spidarwin]

I think it's fun to mess with the formula now and then... but honestly I think the core of the book has been one of the books strengths.

The concept of this book is a family, not just a bunch of heroes working together. If you start subbing people in and out, then it's simply a different book. It becomes a regular superhero book rather than a book about comics first family.

But but but...

This is comics! Peter Parker always has to be an idiot loner jerk whose
greatest scientific discovery was developing a polymer thread which expands
on contact with air and nobody else has ever been able to duplicate, and
is now superfluous because some writer thought it would be keen to
incorporate into his physiology.

Sue has always got to be blonde. Ben has always got to rag on Johnny.

Characters at Marvel are no longer allowed to grow; some [expletive
deleted and replaced with the name, "Joe Quesada"] has established
an editorial mandate which requires that every popular character remain
"true" to an established character archetype, and only if a character is
underperforming in sales can any sort of deviation be allowed.

We're all being treated as if we're not allowed to grow up, either.

Now go drink your ovaltine, and ask mommy for five bucks to buy the
next issue of Fantastic Four! :)

[Werehunter]

I somewhat agree with this thread. While they are a family and that's the most important thing about the book, so often the book resets the status quo. One thing I liked was them making Johnny in charge of the money because it just didn't seem like him. It forced the character to go in a slightly different direction, but he still remained true to himself by doing the job in a way Sue never would have. But sure enough that was dropped without mention and Johnny became the slacker once again.

These characters are most likely the most similar to what they were when created then any other that have been around as long. If that's good or bad depends on the reader.

[Sabaition]

No... What makes the FF work is the interactions with each other. New members are nice, but at the end of the day the original group is what everyone wants.

She-Hulks no Thing, Panthers no Reed, Crystals no Sue... You get what I mean.

They've tried other combos and they're always just pale versions. New members dont have the core origin and history to unite them. And families grow through friendships, romantic relationships and children. Not memberships like the Avengers. The FF has done a good job of being the ONE book that isnt a revolving door everytime it need a boost.

You might as well just make them a four man Avenger group. Or forget the originals all together for "Next Gen" FF groups. They've been fine since my mom was a kid and they're fine now that Im in my 20's. Blame the writers if you havent liked more recent stories, not the team.

Last thing I want is Sentry, Ares, Namor, Gorgon,Black Bolt, Luke Cage or whoever else as a full time member. It's just not the FF. Just ask Dr. Strange, Wolverine, Ghoust Rider and Hulk.

[J592]

I understand what you're saying, to make the dynamic work the characters have to be stagnant, any changes are quickly retconed.

Reed will forever be the smart guy, Sue the mother figure, Ben the brusier fun uncle and Johnny the irresponsible hothead.

The thing about family is eventually you grow up and create your own.
The Fantastic Four could easily be the Fantastic Eight or Twelve. Reed, Sue, Franklin and Val are a foursome without Johnny and Ben, why not expand the team? Have Johnny make a family, a team, with his friends, Ben off building a life of his own.

I'm not saying dismantle the orignal family, the original team but there's nothing lost by letting it grow up. And it can always be dropped if it doesn't work.

[Sabaition]

I understand what you're saying, to make the dynamic work the characters have to be stagnant, any changes are quickly retconed.

Reed will forever be the smart guy, Sue the mother figure, Ben the brusier fun uncle and Johnny the irresponsible hothead.

The thing about family is eventually you grow up and create your own.
The Fantastic Four could easily be the Fantastic Eight or Twelve. Reed, Sue, Franklin and Val are a foursome without Johnny and Ben, why not expand the team? Have Johnny make a family, a team, with his friends, Ben off building a life of his own.

I'm not saying dismantle the orignal family, the original team but there's nothing lost by letting it grow up. And it can always be dropped if it doesn't work.

Johnny married is no longer the playboy. Ben's refussle to put someone through the things Franklin and Val, for instance, go through are now part of his character.

Tossing in more family doesnt make the FF more interesting to me. If anything, it makes it way more complicated. Especially if they all have to worry about their kids and wives everytime the go on a adventure. Writers havent been doing the best job with the characters lately as is.

Ive never felt the FF was "stagnant" is again more a writers problem. Trying to "advance" their personalities and changing things as needed.

Sue from Betty Crocker perfect woman to indepent extreamly capible woman. Thing from a self brooding I hate myself and stay in a corner, to the idol of millions to even now, finding love and willlingly walking away from it. Reed from a nearly robtic nerd with a love interest to a complex figure head. And Johnny has delt with playboying, to dead girlfriends and ect. The writers have taken great characters and really done nothing over the last few years. Adding in new pieces isnt going to do anything but make it alittle harder for them to have adventures....

An since it's suppost to be an adventure book in essence, that would just kill it.

[protege]

But but but...

This is comics! Peter Parker always has to be an idiot loner jerk whose
greatest scientific discovery was developing a polymer thread which expands
on contact with air and nobody else has ever been able to duplicate, and
is now superfluous because some writer thought it would be keen to
incorporate into his physiology.

Sue has always got to be blonde. Ben has always got to rag on Johnny.

Characters at Marvel are no longer allowed to grow; some [expletive
deleted and replaced with the name, "Joe Quesada"] has established
an editorial mandate which requires that every popular character remain
"true" to an established character archetype, and only if a character is
underperforming in sales can any sort of deviation be allowed.

We're all being treated as if we're not allowed to grow up, either.

Now go drink your ovaltine, and ask mommy for five bucks to buy the
next issue of Fantastic Four! :)
Following your logic, the prices should also be a lot more "Fixed."

[Bevbos]

I have to say, I really like the idea of the BP/Storm/Johnny/Ben Fantastic Four. But I didn't like the actual writing all too much... :( Still, that's one of the only combos that works for me, other than the core family unit. To address the larger question, I agree with the posters above who say that straying from the team for a little bit works alright, but in the end, you do need to come back to the core group.

Because real families change, but real families are often really messed up and not good for the individual family members :). The FF is the family you sort of wish you had, to a certain extent.

[Iron Maiden]

I think the roster is OK but I think the writing hasn't been all that great lately. Reed and Sue actually got married and had a child. Johnny had his first serious relationship with Crystal and then he later enrolled in college. What happened to that? After that, it seemed like very few writers have had much success in with that kind of organic story-tellling. Things seem to go back to the same old same old, Johnny being the biggest case in point recently. The last real big change IMO was the birth of Valeria.

I am hoping that Hickman has a fresh take on this and isn't afraid to shake things up a bit. Ben should have been really ticked off at Reed for having a hand in the death of his friend Bill Foster and that could have been a good source of some dramatic tension on the team. I think they've become too comfortable lately, even the Reed/Sue split was mishandled IMO. I don't want them to become the comic book version of a TV soap but I think there's got to be some believable friction from time to time.

Also, don't make the FF so insular. As mentioned previously, the FF has had a huge supporting cast over the years....we just don't see as much of it anymore.

[Westgarth J]

They stay much the same because the default group dynamic works and sooner or later everything goes back to 'normal' because other writers come along, new readers are courted, new stories must be told.
F4 is a franchise concept, and complaining that things don't change much is like complaining that Franklin/Spidey/Bugs Bunny doesn't age - these characters make money as they are and people generally don't respond to changes not because they're afraid of new things, but because when they sign up to follow a certain property, they do so because they have an idea what they're getting and that's what they expect to find. Or maybe - and this is just a crazy stab in the dark here - the vast majority of readers like things as they are.
I'm convinced Valeria has only lasted this long because she hasn't greatly affected the dynamic of the comics thus far, but once she starts impacting storylines and becoming the deus ex, readers may start griping more vocally.

Also, don't make the FF so insular. As mentioned previously, the FF has had a huge supporting cast over the years....we just don't see as much of it anymore.

You mean research the characters instead of just writing the first thing that occurs? Well that's just scared off half the writers who might have been interested in the job - I hope you're happy at what your crazy talk has done!

[coconutphone]

I'd like to see more focus slowly go onto the kids since the brother/sister dynamic is really fun and interesting as it's been in the Dark Reign books and it's different since Valeria is actually the smart one.

I LOVE the kids especially at this age. Franklin's a great ordinary little boy who has the ptential to be uber powerful and I love super smart Valeria. It's one of the big draws for the new creative team on the book for me.

I also agree that it's important ot have most if not all of the core 4 there. It's not the same book if 1 or more are gone for long periods of time. I did like She-Hulk subbing in as the resident bruiser for that long stretch.

[Nevets F]

I always prefer the FF when they are not the original four.

Crystal, Ms. Marvel II/She-Thing, Lyja, Ant-Man, even Kristoff are so much more interesting and fun to read about.

[Sabaition]

I think the roster is OK but I think the writing hasn't been all that great lately. Reed and Sue actually got married and had a child. Johnny had his first serious relationship with Crystal and then he later enrolled in college. What happened to that? After that, it seemed like very few writers have had much success in with that kind of organic story-tellling. Things seem to go back to the same old same old, Johnny being the biggest case in point recently. The last real big change IMO was the birth of Valeria.

I am hoping that Hickman has a fresh take on this and isn't afraid to shake things up a bit. Ben should have been really ticked off at Reed for having a hand in the death of his friend Bill Foster and that could have been a good source of some dramatic tension on the team. I think they've become too comfortable lately, even the Reed/Sue split was mishandled IMO. I don't want them to become the comic book version of a TV soap but I think there's got to be some believable friction from time to time.

Also, don't make the FF so insular. As mentioned previously, the FF has had a huge supporting cast over the years....we just don't see as much of it anymore.

That's about how I feel. A writer does something, but the main FF writer doesnt use the ramafication as a source of feeling in the main FF story. Ben having issues with Bill Fosters death should have changed he ENTIRE FF's stand in the Civil War if not had a strong effect on Ben and Reed relationship an the writer did nothing.

WWH happened, writer did nothing, Skrull invasion Civil War.. Writers are just not doong a good job following up ANYTHING. Im kind of wondering it in Reeds quest to "Fix Everything", which shows him wielding the Infinity Gauntlet does lead to something bad like having to get rid of Val or something like that.

Also they do have a HUGE cast to work with yet I costantly get the damn Frightful Four... For gods sake, will a writer go outside the box and get the U-Foes in there finally. At least the new writer appears to b heading back to cosmic events which is suppost to be the FF's thing as "Earths First Line of Defense."

Or how bout the fact that they're so involved with the Inhumans yet no one has touched on them helping of talking to Black Bolt during the War of Kings story. All the wasted stories that these guys seem to ijnore because it would require them to use a real imagination.

[Monty_Cristo]

Ant-Man should join the Fantastic Four but not actually let them know that he's joined.

[Majinoaw]

Why in the world aren't the UFoes in more issues of the FF. They are practically their evil versions... Let's get the FF back on track and show some growth.

[Will.S]

I LOVE the kids especially at this age. Franklin's a great ordinary little boy who has the ptential to be uber powerful and I love super smart Valeria. It's one of the big draws for the new creative team on the book for me.
Yeah.

With Franklin he has the potential to be a really powerful character but I think his greatest strength is his imagination. Valeria on the other hand seems to be more on the practical side with being a science genius and all but she could also share his enthusiasm for the unknown.

But unfortunately unless Marvel grows them artificially they won't really be able to get a major spotlight as a new FF of sorts but I'd love to see that some day if it hasn't been done already.

[Uncanny Madman]

The FF should always be Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben.

They just need more supporting cast to mix it up a bit. If you think about it, the average team book now seems to have in excess of 8 main characters plus supporting and antagonisers. Whilst I personally feel those books struggle to achieve decent characterisation for much of the cast, that's one thing that FF should never have a problem with as it's core cast will always be the main four. But yeah, more friends for Sue and Johnny, more mini team ups ie Torch and Spidey, more stuff like in Mighty Avengers and Dark Wolverine where the FF guest star...more meetings like that in their own book.

I actually think that Franklin and Val are somewhat of a hinderance most the time...they don't really interest me at all and we always have to suspend belief concerning parental priorities (having said that I am dreadfully behind in alot of my books having 8-10 unread issues of a few series, FF being one of them. After having just caught up on Cap and DD, FF is next!)

[JulianPerez]

That's about how I feel. A writer does something, but the main FF writer doesnt use the ramafication as a source of feeling in the main FF story. Ben having issues with Bill Fosters death should have changed he ENTIRE FF's stand in the Civil War if not had a strong effect on Ben and Reed relationship an the writer did nothing.

WWH happened, writer did nothing, Skrull invasion Civil War.. Writers are just not doong a good job following up ANYTHING. Im kind of wondering it in Reeds quest to "Fix Everything", which shows him wielding the Infinity Gauntlet does lead to something bad like having to get rid of Val or something like that.

Also they do have a HUGE cast to work with yet I costantly get the damn Frightful Four... For gods sake, will a writer go outside the box and get the U-Foes in there finally. At least the new writer appears to b heading back to cosmic events which is suppost to be the FF's thing as "Earths First Line of Defense."

Or how bout the fact that they're so involved with the Inhumans yet no one has touched on them helping of talking to Black Bolt during the War of Kings story. All the wasted stories that these guys seem to ijnore because it would require them to use a real imagination.

I share your frustration with the fact the FF hasn't really been central to any of the particularly major developments in the Marvel Universe. They're something of an afterthought, in many ways, particularly their involvement in things like Secret Invasion.

Consider: the FF were the first to encounter the Skrulls, the first to reach their homeworld, the ones with the greatest experience ferreting out Skrull infiltrators. Finally, for the longest stretch of time, Johnny Storm was married to a Skrull. That last bit was used, but it was on the periphery, buried in a tie-in issue.

A while back on this very forum, someone asked what Marvel's flagship comic was. Nobody -and I mean nobody - said FF. I think this is a crying shame, considering the importance of of the FF to the history of the Marvel Universe, and a greater effort should be made at the editorial level to push FF and give them central roles.

[Mechano]

i agree with the other posters who like a change every once in a while... but it always has to come back to the originals. they are the fantastic four.

[bjmorga]

Yes. Have Namor get to know Sue in the Biblical sense. That could be fun.

[Uncanny Madman]

I share your frustration with the fact the FF hasn't really been central to any of the particularly major developments in the Marvel Universe. They're something of an afterthought, in many ways, particularly their involvement in things like Secret Invasion.

Consider: the FF were the first to encounter the Skrulls, the first to reach their homeworld, the ones with the greatest experience ferreting out Skrull infiltrators. Finally, for the longest stretch of time, Johnny Storm was married to a Skrull. That last bit was used, but it was on the periphery, buried in a tie-in issue.

A while back on this very forum, someone asked what Marvel's flagship comic was. Nobody -and I mean nobody - said FF. I think this is a crying shame, considering the importance of of the FF to the history of the Marvel Universe, and a greater effort should be made at the editorial level to push FF and give them central roles.

Wasn't the FF's lack of inclusion in Secret Invasion (in their own book atleast) down to not wanting to interrupt Millars run? As for the main event, Reed was pretty heavily involved, heck, his Skrull revealing doo-hickey pretty much turned the tide. Sue had been replaced so she was outta commission. I don't see Johnny and Lyja as being "buried" in a tie in issue...I mean, it wasn't really a nececessity for the broader strokes of the main Secret Invasion story was it? I think the fact it was basically the driving force behind the mini is a very positive thing and shows that Marvel did indeed want to acknowledge such a part of the history. Originally Secret Invasion was an Avengers only story that then got pumped up to be MU-wide, I don't see why the FF not being a driving force behind it is such a big thing. Why should the FF always have "first dibs" on the Skrulls? It's good to mix things up a bit and as I said, Reed was pretty heavily involved in the larger story beats anyway. Regardless, SI was always mainly intended to propel the Avengers franchise into even more dissaray, "dethrone" Stark and push Norman Osborn and his ragtag crew.

Also, in terms of pushing the book, putting Millar and Hitch on FF was a pretty big push on Marvels end wasn't it? I guess there's only a certain amount of people who are interested in the FF nowadays, no matter who's writing it. They've always been one of the more "cheesy" MU franchises on the surface, and I guess alot of people aren't that interested in digging past the surface. Which is indeed, a shame.

[bjmorga]

I guess there's only a certain amount of people who are interested in the FF nowadays, no matter who's writing it. They've always been one of the more "cheesy" MU franchises on the surface, and I guess alot of people aren't that interested in digging past the surface. Which is indeed, a shame.

I know this is true for me. I can't stick with the series for long. MK4 was okay and the Waid run was decent. Otherwise, the premise is just kind of hokey to me. I prefer comics with a sharper edge to them. I don't think anyone can accuse the Fantastic Four of having an edge. I want to like the title because Marvel occasionally gets creators involved that I really enjoy reading. But it just hasn't happened yet.

[Iron Maiden]

I think the FF should have had a bigger role in the Skrull conflict because of their long history with them. Sure Reed got to invent the doohickey but I think a lot of writers have forgotten that the Skrulls killed Sue and Johnny's father after they impersonated him for a a while, let alone Johnny knowing a Skrull "in the biblical sense." The FF SI tie in was a welcome one in that it did show that Lyja was still kicking around but I really didn't buy her going back into the fold with the rest of the Skrulls. I would have liked to have seen her go to Reed and be part of a Skrull backlash. In fact, I'd like to see her become the new Skrull Queen.

[Monty_Cristo]

i am so tired of skrulls.

[Uncanny Madman]

I know this is true for me. I can't stick with the series for long. MK4 was okay and the Waid run was decent. Otherwise, the premise is just kind of hokey to me. I prefer comics with a sharper edge to them. I don't think anyone can accuse the Fantastic Four of having an edge. I want to like the title because Marvel occasionally gets creators involved that I really enjoy reading. But it just hasn't happened yet.

Wheras for me, it's always characters first, writers second. Which sure, means that I'm not always getting a fantastic story (no pun intended) but let's face it, no-one ever intentionally writes a "bad" story, it's all down to interpretation. I just like to be constantly following the lives of the characters I love, and the FF are always alot of fun to read about, no matter who's writing them or what the situation is, simply because of them being who they are and the dynamic between the characters. For the same reasons I really like the films, theyre just alot of fun. Not everything needs to take itself so seriously! Daredevils angst more than balances things out in my monthly pile xD (of course that's not to suggest that the FF's stories are always light and fluffy, they're often really not)

I think the FF should have had a bigger role in the Skrull conflict because of their long history with them. Sure Reed got to invent the doohickey but I think a lot of writers have forgotten that the Skrulls killed Sue and Johnny's father after they impersonated him for a while.

Hmm I didn't know this since I only really started faithfully following comics this decade and alot of my knowledge only comes from handbooks and bios etc although now I do recall an episode of the (kinda awful :tongue:) 90's cartoon which is obviously an adaption of this, since I recall the fathers death and the Skrulls being involved.

Sure, they could (and probably should) have had a bigger role, but the fact still remains that is was mainly an Avengers event. It always was more about the seeds of mistrust and the whole "MU becoming a more unpredictable place again" element than the Skrulls themselves...

[Will.S]

i am so tired of skrulls.
I still like them but I'd like to see them done with a little more depth than what Bendis did with a paltry 2 or 3 characters like Veranke, Criti Noll, and a few minor players.

Initially Bendis showed some really interesting stuff regarding their race, religion, politics, and looking for a place to stay but ultimately he did nothing with them as a race aside from using them as fodder in the end. Amidst the actual Secret Invasion itselt, it seems like every other writer had a better take on the skrulls than Bendis as I've mostly enjoyed what Jason Aaron did with the skrull general in SI, what Kieron Gillen did with them in the Beta Ray Bill SI aftermath book, and the WoK: Ascension series with that Darkhawk skrull.