Robert Kirkman and Marvel

[adamantiumhip]

Why did Kirkman leave Marvel? Was there a story behind the split?

I loved Kirkman's Marvel Zombies minis and Marvel Team Up.. I didn't even mind his Ultimate X Men run.

[Expletive Deleted]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17705

[XPac]

I always found Kirtman's rant kinda weird.

A lot of the better writers do creator owned stuff WHILE working at marvel and dc. And I frankly think that ends up helping the sales of their creater owned stuff.

Ah well.

[Spidey616]

Hope he does eventually come back and write for Marvel again.

Loved his Ant-Man and glad to see the character continue appear in the books courtesy of A:TI and T-Bolts

[XPac]

He hope he does eventually come back and write for Marvel again.

Loved his Ant-Man and glad to see the character continue appear in the books courtesy of A:TI and T-Bolts

Yeah... his Ant-Man might just be my favorite NEW character in marvel. It's very cool that the character didn't land in limbo.

[striderhirryu2]

Did anyone else get exploit the big companies for their resources and then jump ship as soon as you've gotten yourself enough of a following? Sounds very Image-y

[Libaax]

Personally i like his image works and would like if he didnt come back to marvel for ongoing.

Why waste him on Avengers and co when he can create his own quality works.

Marvel has enough good writers.

[XPac]

Personally i like his image works and would like if he didnt come back to marvel for ongoing.

Why waste him on Avengers and co when he can create his own quality works.

Marvel has enough good writers.

True, but I don't think he should cut himself off from doing things like minis' and such.

I think there are plenty of good projects a writer can do outside of an on-going 616 title that gives them ample free reign to do whatever.

If you do thinks like Old Man Logan, you can even sneak them in-continuity. I think it's great to do creator owned stuff... I just don't agree with burning bridges and cutting yourself off completely from work at marvel or dc.

[GRANT!]

I always found Kirtman's rant kinda weird.

A lot of the better writers do creator owned stuff WHILE working at marvel and dc. And I frankly think that ends up helping the sales of their creater owned stuff.

Ah well.

I don't know. Seems like a lot of creators forget or neglect their creator owned books when they work for the Big Two. Fraction, Hickman and Bendis come to mind. Not to mention big name artists who rarely make the jump anymore.

[Libaax]

XPac


If you are big enough to thrive on your creator owned stuff like Kirkman is unlike many others he doesnt need the big two really.


Of course i wouldnt mind minis,such like you said. Still he is one of few writers i follow. I would rather see he did a new series that became something special like Invincible,Walking Dead on his own.

[GRANT!]

Did anyone else get exploit the big companies for their resources and then jump ship as soon as you've gotten yourself enough of a following? Sounds very Image-y

I don't see that as a bad thing. After a certain point most of these creators are not going to be draws anymore. It's better idea to do your own thing when you're at your peak then wait until the big companies don't want you anymore.

[XPac]

I don't know. Seems like a lot of creators forget or neglect their creator owned books when they work for the Big Two. Fraction, Hickman and Bendis come to mind. Not to mention big name artists who rarely make the jump anymore.

When you're doing 4-5 books a month like Bendis, then yeah it's easy to neglect your creater owned stuff (though Bendis is still pumping out some stuff).

It's a balancing act. If creater owned stuff is important to you, you make the time. If you honestly can't... then I guess I can see someone not wanting to work for marvel full time.

I'm just saying I don't believe it has to be an either or kind of thing. I think you can do both. I don't think all the top writers in comics need to leave marvel and dc to do indepentent work. There's no reason these people can't do both. One can help the other.

[Libaax]

My ideal writer is like my fav Garth Ennis. Do 80% of the time your own works and a DC,marvel series every few years or some mini now and then.

Cause then you get new stories by quality creators and don't have to read the biggest superhero to read the best creators.

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

I always thought that the ending of Marvel Zombies 2 was Kirkman's way of giving a giant "F*** you" to Marvel and possibly the readers. The zombies teleport to who-knows-where, and the villain rants "There! It's somebody else's problem now!"

Maybe I read too much into it.

[Raharu]

I like Kirkman, but his 'manifesto' was a little heavy handed. I'm sure he just vented a lot of what he was feeling, and probably more writers feel, but there's nothing with wanting to work with the established characters of the big two, whether you have any real rights to them afterwards or not.

[Will.S]

I always thought that the ending of Marvel Zombies 2 was Kirkman's way of giving a giant "F*** you" to Marvel and possibly the readers. The zombies teleport to who-knows-where, and the villain rants "There! It's somebody else's problem now!"

Maybe I read too much into it.
I mentioned this in the Spider-Man forum but his Marvel Team-Up book seemed to me like he was vying really hard to get a Spider-Man book.

He's done some top selling work for them like Marvel Zombies, introduced a great new character with the Eric O'Grady Ant-Man, and did a really fun Marvel Team-Up book. The only title I can say that he didn't seem to have his heart in it at all was in Ultimate X-Men but I'm not sure how much I can blame him for that since he seemed to be one of those writers that they brought in at the last minute after Vaughan left which had him practically make stuff up as he went along (at least that's how a lot of his stories on UXM read).

I think he should have been given a top tier title to showcase how good of a writer he can be with a top tier character but I'm guessing that he wasn't feeling like he was being recognized as much as a Bendis or a Millar so he split. But don't take any of that as fact as I'm just making assumptions on what I've been observing of his career at Marvel.

[XPac]

The other part of the manifesto I'm not thrilled about is the idea that children should read the Big 2's superhero books, while adults should read more adult themed creater owned stuff.

As an adult myself, I love reading a Spidey book that can some adult storytelling. There are products out there more tailed to kids like Marvel Adventure (which I also read), and there are books out there tailed completely to adults like the Max books.

The bottom line is that I think there's a little something for everyone in the mainstream world. Marvel and DC shouldn't just be for kids. It's a market they need to be very aware of. But adults read Spider-Man too. And there's no reason they can't have an adult story, which is likewise readable to most kids.

[Will.S]

The other part of the manifesto I'm not thrilled about is the idea that children should read the Big 2's superhero books, while adults should read more adult themed creater owned stuff.

As an adult myself, I love reading a Spidey book that can some adult storytelling. There are products out there more tailed to kids like Marvel Adventure (which I also read), and there are books out there tailed completely to adults like the Max books.

The bottom line is that I think there's a little something for everyone in the mainstream world. Marvel and DC shouldn't just be for kids. It's a market they need to be very aware of. But adults read Spider-Man too. And there's no reason they can't have an adult story, which is likewise readable to most kids.
Yeah I agree with that as well.

However I do think both companies have been pushing the gore a little too much in comics, especially DC as of late.

[XPac]

Yeah I agree with that as well.

However I do think both companies have been pushing the gore a little too much in comics, especially DC as of late.

That I agree with.

There are times I think X FOrce should be a Max book.

Superboy ripping arms and legs off of teen titans in Crisis probably shouldn't have been read by some kids.

[Raharu]

I had forgotten about that part. Yeah, I think he was just bitter at Marvel, and probably DC by default. I mean he had some good ideas in there, but he went too far with it all

[XPac]

I had forgotten about that part. Yeah, I think he was just bitter at Marvel, and probably DC by default. I mean he had some good ideas in there, but he went too far with it all

I part of me wonders that too.

If he'd been offered Ultimate Spider-Man right before he left, would he still be doing manifestos about creator owned work? Maybe he would, I don't know... it's probably a bit uncharitable to assume that. But there does seem to be some level of underlying bitterness there.

[daveageallen]

his antman brought on the most one dimensional fratboy hero ever. eric ogrady has nothing to him that pure gimmick that he is a d bag who gets away with bad things. at least he didnt look ridiculous in his own series. he is awful in thunderbolts, he is drawn like this little dark red eyed ultron now

[TOAA]

I`ll be honest, when i watched his manifesto i thought that he was arrogant idiot.

He sounded like nobody else ever figured out that doing creator owned thing is a great idea while other creators are doing that for years. Or that he is going somehow to save the industry, yeah by flooding the market with same shit. His Wolfman is simply generic super-hero stuff but with one gimmick, hero is a werewolf! Haven`t read much of Invincible but it also seems like a generic book, maye Walking Dead is better. Point is that he writers same generic stuff but somehow thinks that he is doing the "RIGHT" thing just because his book has different logo.

And what good has he written for Marvel? UXM? Didn`t whole "UXM sucks" started with his run? Marvel Zombies? Running with gimmick created by Millar? Ant-man? Another gimmick, in Initiative he was made into a better character.

The other part of the manifesto I'm not thrilled about is the idea that children should read the Big 2's superhero books, while adults should read more adult themed creater owned stuff.

Can someone explain to me what exactly adults can find in his books? Is it gore?

[Libaax]

Haven`t read much of Invincible but it also seems like a generic book


Heh ! Its like saying i havent read Daredevil but it sounds like a generic book.

No reason to attack him because you like reading marvel.

I read marvel and dont see what he said as anti- Marvel/DC.

Its a fact that they dominte too much. Many writers top writers at once place isnt too good.

[Westgarth J]

I find nothing unreasonable in what Kirkman says, I only find it surprising that he says it so bluntly, then walks away from a successful tenure with Marvel. It's worth noting that Kirman supports the idea of writers earning a living by working for franchises, and the idea of a mainstream audience for comics - that sounds like someone who wants the best for the medium to me rather than a diva taking a strop, which seems to be the prevailing opinion.

The other part of the manifesto I'm not thrilled about is the idea that children should read the Big 2's superhero books, while adults should read more adult themed creater owned stuff.

As an adult myself, I love reading a Spidey book that can some adult storytelling. There are products out there more tailed to kids like Marvel Adventure (which I also read), and there are books out there tailed completely to adults like the Max books

Kirkman asks that mainstream books be 'appropriate' for a child to read in the same way that profanity-filled violent movies can be trimmed for television (the movies that rely exclusively on those things sink, while movies with genuinely good stories swim), not that storytelling be dumbed-down or the writer be prevented from dealing with difficult subject matter. Marvel have tackled the matter of child rape, murder, revenge and torture, and this was all during the time the company was under the auspices of the CCA, so it's not like they haven't managed the balancing act before.
The only impact that making the main superhero titles appropriate for children to read would have on the current crop of mainstream superhero books is that you'd lose the odd gore money-shot and the cuss words would go back to being a bunch of random symbols again. The actual structuring and methodology of good stories would be unaffected, with only the more juvenile moments pushed out of certain books. Speaking as an alleged 'adult', I can take that loss, but if that's the only thing you like about comic books I'd suggest superhero comics maybe aren't the kind of thing you want to be reading.

Where Kirkman goes wrong is in his assumption that Marvel are capable of marketing their mainstream titles to a modern audience of children or adults rather than the dwindling fanbase they exclusively cater to now during the decline of the western comic book market (foreign comic book markets being quite healthy without the Diamond monopoly on distribution - I wonder why..?). They maybe have the occasional breakout moment from gimmicks like the Spidey unmasking or the Obama cameo, but these are PR successes, not marketing, and they'll only be successful for so long - death of Batman, anyone?

[remoteman]

Kirkman was born to write Spider-Man, it sucks that he can't be part of the Brain Trust.

[Grapeweasel]

I won't miss him.

[carabas]

I am having flashbacks to a very similar but better maniphesto by Warren Ellis from ten or so years ago. Which went absolutely nowhere.

And Kirkman is no Warren Ellis.

[Salvester]

I always thought that the ending of Marvel Zombies 2 was Kirkman's way of giving a giant "F*** you" to Marvel and possibly the readers. The zombies teleport to who-knows-where, and the villain rants "There! It's somebody else's problem now!"

Maybe I read too much into it.

Nah...is just saw it as leaving it open ended.

[Salvester]

He sounded like nobody else ever figured out that doing creator owned thing is a great idea while other creators are doing that for years. Or that he is going somehow to save the industry, yeah by flooding the market with same shit. His Wolfman is simply generic super-hero stuff but with one gimmick, hero is a werewolf! Haven`t read much of Invincible but it also seems like a generic book, maye Walking Dead is better. Point is that he writers same generic stuff but somehow thinks that he is doing the "RIGHT" thing just because his book has different logo.




What you basically said was "I haven't read much of his stuff, but I'm going to assume it's generic. I'll use my assumption to prove a point."

Your pretty wrong on assuming Invincible, Walking Dead, and Wolfman are generic. They all use stuff that wouldn't fly at the Big 2, and are VERY refreshing to read, without all the continuity and such.

[James Conniff]

I`ll be honest, when i watched his manifesto i thought that he was arrogant idiot.
Arrogant and Idiot aren't words I'd use to describe him.

He sounded like nobody else ever figured out that doing creator owned thing is a great idea while other creators are doing that for years. Or that he is going somehow to save the industry, yeah by flooding the market with same shit. His Wolfman is simply generic super-hero stuff but with one gimmick, hero is a werewolf! Haven`t read much of Invincible but it also seems like a generic book, maye Walking Dead is better. Point is that he writers same generic stuff but somehow thinks that he is doing the "RIGHT" thing just because his book has different logo.

And what good has he written for Marvel? UXM? Didn`t whole "UXM sucks" started with his run? Marvel Zombies? Running with gimmick created by Millar? Ant-man? Another gimmick, in Initiative he was made into a better character.
Have you personally read any of that? O'Grady was a great character before Initiative, which is why he ended up IN Initiative, and then Thunderbolts.


Can someone explain to me what exactly adults can find in his books? Is it gore?
Maybe you could try reading some of his work before jumping to conclusions?

Kirkman's work on Invincible and the walking dead is pretty damned impressive and not just because they are independent titles with over 60 issues out, which is a hell of a hard thing to do. Invincible is like Kirkman's love letter to superhero books that is a hell of a fun read, lots of references to everything from the Teen Titans and the JLA, to Wacky Kirby inspired characters like Battle Beast. He may feel like a Superman/Peter Parker mash up, but in the end it is a coming of age story, Mark is trying to become a man but how does a young guy go from no powers and minor responsibility to becoming the worlds protector. How do you deal with a literal world of responsibility?
The Walking dead is a Drama Horror title taking place in a world where society has crumbled after a zombie outbreak. Zombie stories are a dime a dozen, but this is where Kirkman stands out, the focus of TWD has been on the people and how they live with others in a world with no rules other than Survive. I was hooked by the emotionally charged ending to the first arc and have seen and felt so much more since then, scenes that I never thought I would see in a comic, some stories beautiful and hopefully, and others that I've had to put down because of their disturbing nature. I felt that Invincible was a generic character at first as well until issue 7, which I am really not going to spoil here with the hook being as good as it was.

He may have written some sub par stuff, like his Ult X-men run , but his independent work is where he has always shined. I think that's really all he wanted here, more people considering writing independently that haven't before, or haven't done anything in a while.

[Leocomix]

When you compare the situation in the US to the situation in Europe where creator owned stuff is the quasi-totality you find that comics creators live much better in Europe and have to produce far less to make a living. The oligopoly of the big companies doesn't work to the advantage of comics creators.

[Cloudman]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17705

:eek: He has no ears! :eek:

[TOAA]

Heh ! Its like saying i havent read Daredevil but it sounds like a generic book.

No reason to attack him because you like reading marvel.

I read marvel and dont see what he said as anti- Marvel/DC.


I have read few issues, IIRC they were around 50ish, were Cecil(?) uses some stuff implanted into Invincible`s head to cause him pain, sorry can`t remember it clearly. Didn`t notice anything that i couldn`t find in any other comic on the market.

And i don`t care that he is talking against Marvel or DC.

Have you personally read any of that? O'Grady was a great character before Initiative, which is why he ended up IN Initiative, and then Thunderbolts.

Yes i did. And he became fan favorite in his series, aka whole ten people liked him. I`d say that Gage and Slott are known for fan services, no?

Mark is trying to become a man but how does a young guy go from no powers and minor responsibility to becoming the worlds protector. How do you deal with a literal world of responsibility?

Doesn`t that, in a sense, describe 90% of young/teenager heroes? Or is it so much better/different because he has literal world of responsibility instead of few millions living in some other heroes country/city/whatever?

What about Wolfman? What makes him unique? His appearance? That he has family?

without all the continuity and such.

All publishers have continuity light or out of continuity stuff.

[Libaax]

If you dismiss Invincible by how it sounds like other teenage heroes you might as well dismiss 90% of the famous superheroes. Every street level hero sound th same. Cosmic ones the etc

Its not about the synopis but what the writer,artist etc do with their series.

[TOAA]

If you dismiss Invincible by how it sounds like other teenage heroes you might as well dismiss 90% of the famous superheroes. Every street level hero sound th same. Cosmic ones the etc

Its not about the synopis but what the writer,artist etc do with their series.

But thats my problem. I have read 10-12 issues of his independant stuff(Invincibles + Wolfman) and i couldn`t find anything unique, maybe those references in Invincible were lost to me due not being huge fan of TT, i don`t know.

Why Wolfman wouldn`t work in Marvel under Max? We had not so long ago Werewolf by night mini, no? For example i enjoyed GN Alcocholic and i can see why it wouldn`t work under Marvel, it is very different product. But with Wolfman? Same ordinary superhero stuff(as far as it sounds AND reads) where hero happens to be werewolf.

Now he has his stuff with different logo, how that saves the industry? I understand that he gets more money now, but what do WE gain? What industry gets out of this?

I understand that many creators do their own stuff which could work with Marvel/DC and doesn`t bring anything new to the table but at least they don`t act like nor pretend that they discovered cure for cancer.

[jarvSthe1]

Kirkman had a diva moment. His Marvel stuff was being cancelled anyway wasn't it? I think his Image stuff is doing well because Image has a lower amount of cash that they accept before cancelling a title.

[Salvester]

Kirkman had a diva moment. His Marvel stuff was being cancelled anyway wasn't it? I think his Image stuff is doing well because Image has a lower amount of cash that they accept before cancelling a title.


I'm pretty sure it is doing well because it is well written and is constantly high quality.

[Monty_Cristo]

Have you personally read any of that? O'Grady was a great character before Initiative, which is why he ended up IN Initiative, and then Thunderbolts.


exactly. i used to give out issues of Irredeemable Ant-Man to my non-comic book reading friends as birthday gifts. every one of them loved the issues they read. outside of me really liking the character, the writing was just exceptional in those books. Kirkman's just a natural story-teller; i envy him this. and Irredeemable Ant-Man, despite the moral depravity of the character, was the furthest thing from shallow. this was a very adult book despite the setting & subject matter. people who see Ant-Man as a gimmick have only seen him when he makes a one panel appearance somewhere; as a gimmick. Eric lost friends, made friends, betrayed friends, found something approaching love, survived torture, and managed to grow a little as a human being by the end of the series. the people dissing him are the ones being shallow.

[carabas]

Kirkman had a diva moment. His Marvel stuff was being cancelled anyway wasn't it? I think his Image stuff is doing well because Image has a lower amount of cash that they accept before cancelling a title.Did you know a creator make more money from 20.000 copies sold of a book that he owns than from a top 10 company-owned book?

[Kasper Cole]

I have read few issues, IIRC they were around 50ish, were Cecil(?) uses some stuff implanted into Invincible`s head to cause him pain, sorry can`t remember it clearly. Didn`t notice anything that i couldn`t find in any other comic on the market.

What you need to do is try reading it from the beginning. Truthfully the best part of Kirkman's writing is he has to develop well rounded characters who behave like actual people and in doing so he makes you care about them...The best part of invincible isn't the gore, or the comedy, it's emotional moments when you see his characters in love or in great pain because of loss...The turning point moment in the series with Marks dad resonated for many issues afterwards and still affects the characters to this day, you could feel what Mark and his mother were going through....... Invincible is one of the best books to come alone in a LONG time, and i recommend it highly to everyone, but you have to start from the beginning, issue 50 is where a lot of things change and you can't get the gravity of the changes if you don't know what the status quo was.

[ANewHope]

He may have written some sub par stuff, like his Ult X-men run , but his independent work is where he has always shined. I think that's really all he wanted here, more people considering writing independently that haven't before, or haven't done anything in a while.

When I read his interview with Bendis, it made me intentionally avoid anything from Kirkman.

If someone is smart, they don't go around telling people how smart they are.

If someone is a great writer, they don't go around telling others how great they are. That's what I got out of his statement. To avoid him whenever possible.

I was even tempted of trying Walking Dead, but after seeing his attitude decided against it.

[Monty_Cristo]

When I read his interview with Bendis, it made me intentionally avoid anything from Kirkman.

If someone is smart, they don't go around telling people how smart they are.

If someone is a great writer, they don't go around telling others how great they are.

yeah. some of those "great" writers have messageboards where their word is law and plenty of toadies are present to pronounce their "greatness."

[ANewHope]

No that's a smart business investment or marketing. They provide more information towards fans that want to know those little details. A product doesn't sell unless people know about it.

You gotta have money to make money. Just because music is on MTV doesn't mean its good music.

[Uncanny Madman]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17705

What IS he talking about?! Who is it again that he's expecting to write the big company's books whilst everyone runs off and follows him into the sunset? Just...really weird.

Speaking solely for myself, as a Marvel fan more than a comics fan I'm really not interested in following creators around and even less interested in seeking out new properties...besides, there's only so much a guy can afford! :tongue:

I'm sure I'm far from the only one who reads comics solely because of the universe they're set in and I think that's kinda the point Mr.Kirkman's missing here...there's a reason Marvel and DC are the "big two".

[Gitaroo_Dude]

What IS he talking about?! Who is it again that he's expecting to write the big company's books whilst everyone runs off and follows him into the sunset? Just...really weird.

Speaking solely for myself, as a Marvel fan more than a comics fan I'm really not interested in following creators around and even less interested in seeking out new properties...besides, there's only so much a guy can afford! :tongue:

I'm sure I'm far from the only one who reads comics solely because of the universe they're set in and I think that's kinda the point Mr.Kirkman's missing here...there's a reason Marvel and DC are the "big two".

Which is the entire mindset Kirkman wants to fight and that I, and perhaps Kirkman, dislike.

[Salvester]

I think the biggest thing Kirkman is trying to say is that he is living his dreams, and he is trying to encourage other writers to come try and live his dream too, because he loves it. He is writing what he loves, enjoying what he is writing, and supporting his family. One thing I love Kirkman for is he LOVES his fans. He knows they are allowing him to do what he loves, and I think he wants other writers to experiance that.

[Greg Anderson]

I'm actually of the belief that what indie books are should be more mainstream and vice versa. I recall Kirkman pretty much saying that the characters of the Big 2 will last no matter what, so the writers/artist should spread their true muscles by trying to do some creator own and show the overall comic audience the diversity of work that can come about then just constantly being editorial mandated where you practically have to squeeze ounces of stuff for new stories for these "Big 2" characters/companies.

Thing is, folks still refuse to look outside of the box when it comes to comics. Many people I know feel that Invincible and Walking Dead are the end all beat all books and that's enough Indie books for them.

[carabas]

I'm actually of the belief that what indie books are should be more mainstream and vice versa.And in pretty much every other region in the world where comics are popular, this is true.
And sales everywhere else are far superior to the laughable numbers the America comics industry can produce.

[Kasper Cole]

And in pretty much every other region in the world where comics are popular, this is true.
And sales everywhere else are far superior to the laughable numbers the America comics industry can produce.

I think some of that has to do with the fact that in America Comic books for some reason are still viewed as something "for kids" in many other countries they gear a lot more comics towards adults, same thing applies to animation.

[Cloudman]

I think some of that has to do with the fact that in America Comic books for some reason are still viewed as something "for kids" in many other countries they gear a lot more comics towards adults, same thing applies to animation.

Nah, people in the UK still consider comics "for kids" as well. Though generally, it's only the narrow-minded assholes who look down on you for reading them.

[carabas]

I think some of that has to do with the fact that in America Comic books for some reason are still viewed as something "for kids" in many other countries they gear a lot more comics towards adults, same thing applies to animation.
You'd be surprised. Overhere all cartoons (even very adult anime stuff) and superhero movies still get cathegorised as kids stuff at most DVD rental places.

The two big ones are probably genre differentiation and distribution. If 90% of everything is superheroes, you shut out everryone who does not care for superheroes. If comics are mostly sold in direct market comics shops, you shut out the vast majority of the population from even seeing a comic, nevermind buying one.

And of course the fact that beyind restricted to one genre, most comics are part of a decades old ongoing universe can't be helping. Even if multi-part written-for-the-trade epics go away and the single issue gets some renewed attention, nobody coming in fresh likes buying Batman #587.

[TOAA]

Which is the entire mindset Kirkman wants to fight and that I, and perhaps Kirkman, dislike.

And he is fighting it by creating his own super-hero universe under different logo. In 5-10 years we might have 3-4 titles and some minis in his Invincible universe(we already have Invincible and Wolfman). So we`ll have Invincible guy next to MU guy. Whats the difference?


The two big ones are probably genre differentiation and distribution. If 90% of everything is superheroes, you shut out everryone who does not care for superheroes. If comics are mostly sold in direct market comics shops, you shut out the vast majority of the population from even seeing a comic, nevermind buying one.

I think that is one of the biggest problems. I remember giving my friends Alcocholic to read, they were like "Wha? There are comics not about guys running with underwears?". And Kirkam isn`t really helping here that much.

Imo one of the reasons why Manga is doing ok is because it`s not called comics, while it is. Lots of people simply weren`t aware what the hell is manga and gave it a shot. Would they tried it if it was called "eastern comics"? I doubt it.

And of course the fact that beyind restricted to one genre, most comics are part of a decades old ongoing universe can't be helping. Even if multi-part written-for-the-trade epics go away and the single issue gets some renewed attention, nobody coming in fresh likes buying Batman #587.

I don`t get why nobody else really tries "Hellboy method". No montly title but we constatly get some mini from that unvierse. Why it`s great? No filler issues. No retarded numbering to scare away people. Not much of continuity or crossovers. And quality is usually consistent because they have more time to write scripts and draw panels.

And why DC dropped the ball on All-star line i`ll never figure out.

I think some of that has to do with the fact that in America Comic books for some reason are still viewed as something "for kids" in many other countries they gear a lot more comics towards adults, same thing applies to animation.

Because majority of them ARE for kids. Or pretend to be for grown ups by including sex, gore and other stuff which doesn`t make product more "mature". Take Loeb`s Hulk for example. Or, because it`s Kirkman`s thread, Wolfman. What adult can find there? Content found there is simply childish with added gore or other "mature" elements just because. My favorite titles like Nova and GotG also fall there, well at least they don`t have sex/gore/mature/adult written all over the pages.

[Leocomix]

Saying that the big franchises will always remain is an illusion. They will only remain to the degree that authors will inspire life in them.
Series like Captain America, Daredevil, Iron Man, etc have been close to cancellation (even have been cancelled). Thor has been cancelled.
Kirkman says that these authors would make more money by working on their own series.
Imagine if Kirby had kept the Inhumans, the Silver Surfer, Galactus, the Black Panther to himself?
If Simonson had kept Beta Ray Bill, If Gerry Conway had kept the Punisher, if Miller had kept Elektra?
If Cockrum had kept the new X-Men?
Without all these contributions the Marvel Universe would be as dull as all those universes which have disappeared.

[adamantiumhip]

Don't forget, as someone else said, not everyone can afford to buy every indy book out there...of course you are gonna stick to stuff you love, if that's marvel stuff, dc stuff, or indy.

If a series looks intriguing enough to me, I will try it. But I love videogames and movies too, action figures, dvds...and money is limited. So I can't afford to buy every indy title that looks like it ''might'' be interesting.

I don't think you should look down on people for sticking to stuff they mainly know they will like such as marvel or dc...I tend to stick to marvel, dc, dark horse and some really cool indy comics from people like Boom studios and IDW. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to read some indy comics, but realistically, there's only so much I can afford to read and it's like that for many others too.

[XPac]

Don't forget, as someone else said, not everyone can afford to buy every indy book out there...of course you are gonna stick to stuff you love, if that's marvel stuff, dc stuff, or indy.

If a series looks intriguing enough to me, I will try it. But I love videogames and movies too, action figures, dvds...and money is limited. So I can't afford to buy every indy title that looks like it ''might'' be interesting.

I don't think you should look down on people for sticking to stuff they mainly know they will like such as marvel or dc...I tend to stick to marvel, dc, dark horse and some really cool indy comics from people like Boom studios and IDW. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to read some indy comics, but realistically, there's only so much I can afford to read and it's like that for many others too.

Well, that's the thing... with the Big 2, you do get the best of both worlds. You get the big name writers, and you get them writing the characters you grew up reading.

That said, I STILL think if a writers writes something for the big 2 it'll help his indy stuff. Someone who reads and enjoys Ultimate Spidey would probably be more likely to read Powers. Greater exposure to a wider audience is a good thing. The point really isn't that you need to do one or the other... you can do BOTH.

[adamantiumhip]

Well, that's the thing... with the Big 2, you do get the best of both worlds. You get the big name writers, and you get them writing the characters you grew up reading.

That said, I STILL think if a writers writes something for the big 2 it'll help his indy stuff. Someone who reads and enjoys Ultimate Spidey would probably be more likely to read Powers. Greater exposure to a wider audience is a good thing. The point really isn't that you need to do one or the other... you can do BOTH.


Great point. I think Kirkman had a mostly fantastic run at marvel, MUTU is one of the few series I followed in trades from conception to end and stuck with. Marvel Zombies and it's sequels were great (even though he only did the first two, he set the tone). And in turn, that got me into Walking Dead, another amazing Kirkman series. I'd love to read Invincibles too, given the chance and spare money.

[jediracer]

Why did Kirkman leave Marvel? Was there a story behind the split?


He became an Image partner.

[Taskmaster]

I always found Kirtman's rant kinda weird.

A lot of the better writers do creator owned stuff WHILE working at marvel and dc. And I frankly think that ends up helping the sales of their creater owned stuff.

Ah well.

You aren't alone. I felt his rant was a bit pompous and condescending to fans who supported his mainstream work (and heck to those who enjoy mainstream work) and it turned me off his work all together, so much for all those years of collecting Walking Dead, thanks for the memories Mr. Kirk

[Frank]

He became an Image partner.

Also he said he couldn't do the books he wanted to.

[striderhirryu2]

Also he said he couldn't do the books he wanted to.

What did he want?