Who is the Greatest Manga/Anime Detective?

[Vidocq]

It could be of any series besides the Sherlock Holmes or the Hercule Poriot & Miss Marple animes. Because that's just cheating. And no Psychic Detectives.

I am torn between Shinishi Kudo From Detective Conan or L from Death Note. But ultimately I would have to go with L.


3 Main reasons.

1. Even if Kudo is great and a fellow Sherlockian, his plot is very and I mean very stupid. Oh no! They gave me poison and it turn me into an 8 year old instead of killing me... Of Course! While an Supernatural Notebook that kills people isn't really that sane, atleast it dosen't crack open the laws of the universe to serve the plot (being supernatural and all).

2. It's been over a decade and Kudo isn't even close to finding out anything about this Black Organization. L found out who was Kira by Volume 3 and was sure about the logistics of it all by volume 8 (Sure he was killed in a xanatos Gambit before he could do anything about it but still, credit were it's due).

3. L's methods actually have some Sherlockian Logic to them. The way he found out were Kira was would have made the Master of all Detectives take his hat off. And while Kudo also has this crowning moments many times his deductions just don't make sense or are hilariously contrived. Case in point the first case had a girl get in a roller coaster, wait till they pass the tunnel, jump out of her seat and decapitate her former lover who was seated a few seats back without anybody noticing, including his girlfriend who was seated next to him and who was framed, all in a few seconds and at top speed. Whatever happen to just shoot the guy and run like hell? Oh how did the hero deduced all of this? He found some pearls in the floor that fell down while she was making gymnastics that any Gold medalist wont be able to reproduce. It's just not so fun to me if their is no logic behind it.

Now this isn't the case for most episodes, but for a whole lot of them. I enjoy Detective Conan but I don't watch the storyline episodes because they are frustrating and I mostly watch the Kaito Kid epsides. Why oh why don't they make a Kaito Kid anime...

Anywho who would you choose as the Best Anime Detective?

[Hitokiri]

Zenigata on pure tenacity. Seconding L. Also Detective Lunge from Monster.

[Beacon]

I’m really tempted to go with Zenigata. Sure he rarely wins but that has less to do with his incompetence and more to do with his choice of opponent. The fact that he’s even able to keep up with Lupin is a testament to his abilities.

[lOv3raku]

I think the best anime detective would be Detective Conan. Have you watched Detective Conan series? The series is very good and how it was constructed.

[sun tzu]

Zenigata on pure tenacity. Seconding L. Also Detective Lunge from Monster.

While Lunge is good, it's more of a "quite good", as opposed to the "holy crap that's freaking genius" of L and Shinichi Kudo. I don't think any manga detective compares favorably to these two (well, except for their own rivals within their own series, maybe).

[Grazzt]

While Lunge is good, it's more of a "quite good", as opposed to the "holy crap that's freaking genius" of L and Shinichi Kudo.

I like Lunge as a character better than those two, but I agree it's not on the strength of his detective skills, as it is on his sheer tenacity and nearly mechanical single-mindedness.

Oh, and while we're talking about Urasawa, Detective Gesicht from Pluto. It's pretty unfair: as a robot, he can see details and process information in a way humans can't.

[Skeleton]

I’m really tempted to go with Zenigata. Sure he rarely wins but that has less to do with his incompetence and more to do with his choice of opponent. The fact that he’s even able to keep up with Lupin is a testament to his abilities.

Yes, I agree with Beacon, Zenigata is the best. Barely the fact that he chooses Lupin as opponent is a proof of his courage. Moreover, I think he never wins against Lupin just because he loves the "Catch me if you can" game too much to bring it to an end. That's also a great aspect of his character.

[Vidocq]

I think Zenigata is based on Ganimard from the original Lupin stories from back in the day. Even though their was no policeman as constant as Zenigata, Ganimard was the mos notable of all the guest policemen (Similar to Lestrade in Sherlock Holmes stories). It's been years since I read the story (I think it was the blond phantom) I clearly remember Lupin saying that he admired Ganimard because even though he didn't have the brains of the Lupins, Sherlock Holmes or Leqocs of the world, he would never give up once he set eyes on a goal and would fight relentlessly to accomplish it (or something to that effect, like I said, it's been Years).

Like Ganimard, Zenigata is able to best the worst but ordinary criminals, but he is bested to the point of ridicule by the Extraordinary criminals (and Detectives, as seen when he met Sherlock Holmes) just like any other normal person.

[sun tzu]

On L vs Shinichi: It's true, beyond any shadow of doubt, that Death Note is far more serious and realistic than Detective Conan. The latter can be pretty light-hearted, and the crimes and methods there can get pretty ridiculous at times.
But I don't think it's fair to consider Shinichi less talented because of it. He still displays an incredible ability to notice every small detail and figure out the extremely complex and non-obvious (and that's without getting into the tactical skill he displays at times). Even after more than half-a-hundred tomes, I'm still highly impressed with his intellect.

[RubberLotus]

On L vs Shinichi: It's true, beyond any shadow of doubt, that Death Note is far more serious and realistic than Detective Conan. The latter can be pretty light-hearted, and the crimes and methods there can get pretty ridiculous at times.
But I don't think it's fair to consider Shinichi less talented because of it. He still displays an incredible ability to notice every small detail and figure out the extremely complex and non-obvious (and that's without getting into the tactical skill he displays at times). Even after more than half-a-hundred tomes, I'm still highly impressed with his intellect.

Agreed. Detective Conan at its darkest and angstiest is practically Care Bears even when put up against Death Note at its most light-hearted.

Death Note sometimes makes me wonder how the hell it got serialized in a Shonen magazine. It's probably one of the only Shonen mangas with a sociopath for a main character that's NOT played for laughs.

[Hitokiri]

Remember Fist of the North Star was a Shonen as well so it's not so much of a stretch for Death Note to be one also.

[Grazzt]

Death Note sometimes makes me wonder how the hell it got serialized in a Shonen magazine. It's probably one of the only Shonen mangas with a sociopath for a main character that's NOT played for laughs.

Still, there are other signs of its shonenness (for lack of a better word). The many "what do you mean its not awesome?" scenes and the relative youth of most of the main cast are good examples. Compare it to a similar seinen manga like "Monster", and the difference is obvious.

[Vidocq]

I hadn't noticed before but for a country that it's said to have a huge Holmes fanbase, Japan's anime/Manga has quite a Great Detective protagonist/Antagonist deficit.

I can only think of six.
Kudo
Zenigata
L
Lunge
Boku (From Goth. Which I'm not even sure if it counts since he is obseced with murder and only looks for killers to meet with them and not for any sense of justice, Though he did killed that guy who tried to kill Morino)
and Saguru Hakuba (From Magic Kaito)

[Vidocq]

On L vs Shinichi: It's true, beyond any shadow of doubt, that Death Note is far more serious and realistic than Detective Conan. The latter can be pretty light-hearted, and the crimes and methods there can get pretty ridiculous at times.
But I don't think it's fair to consider Shinichi less talented because of it. He still displays an incredible ability to notice every small detail and figure out the extremely complex and non-obvious (and that's without getting into the tactical skill he displays at times). Even after more than half-a-hundred tomes, I'm still highly impressed with his intellect.

That's true in most cases, but sometimes his deductions are too out there. Take the example in the first case. His only clues were a tear, some pearls and girl who does gymnastics. But his solution is completely illogical. The method of deduction I imagine he uses is '' Eliminate everything that's impossible and whaterver is left, even if improbable, must be the truth.'' Pearls, Gymanstics and a tear is enough to make a hypothesis but not nearly enough to make an accusation. Most of the times it's Logical, particulary when he finds out how Kid did a certain trick, but there are times one wonders if japanese people know that you don't have to confess when some one accuses you of a crime.:biggrin:

[Libaax]

L is clearly the standout to me. He was brilliant. Not silly,unrealitistic either.

[Vidocq]

Mania.com had a list of the 10 greatest detectives, although to be honest two of them were cheats and if you are going to add those two why not Miss Marple and Hercule Poirot?

http://www.mania.com/10-greatest-anime-detectives_article_121376.html

BTW has any of you ever seen/read of Master Keaton before? If so how is it?

[Hazard]

Why is Batman on that list?

Also, an honorable mention should go to Battler Ushiromiya and Erica from Umineko.

[RubberLotus]

Why is Batman on that list?

Also, an honorable mention should go to Battler Ushiromiya and Erica from Umineko.

Batman's been featured in manga before. See "Child of Dreams".

No, really, you have to read it. I mainly do for the page-and-a-half of what has got to be the best Riddler design I've seen.

[B. Kuwanger]

You know what, I'd have to say Jotaro Kujo.

[Vidocq]

Batman's been featured in manga before. See "Child of Dreams".

Yeah, hence why they also added Sherlock Holmes. I'm shocked he wasn't number 1 since the general rule is Holmes »»» All, even if it's his furrie version. I'm really curious at this Master Keaton series now.

But if they were going by those loose standards then why not add Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple who have their own anime adaptation of the originals or Akechi Kogoro, the most Important Detective in Japanese Literature, who appeared in Lupin III and The Daughter of Twenty Faces.



No, really, you have to read it. I mainly do for the page-and-a-half of what has got to be the best Riddler design I've seen.

Coincidently I picked this up this morining, havent had time to read it yet but the cover looks awesome.
http://sobrecomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/batman_child_of.jpg

[1505627]

Yeah, hence why they also added Sherlock Holmes. I'm shocked he wasn't number 1 since the general rule is Holmes »»» All, even if it's his furrie version. I'm really curious at this Master Keaton series now.

But if they were going by those loose standards then why not add Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple who have their own anime adaptation of the originals or Akechi Kogoro, the most Important Detective in Japanese Literature, who appeared in Lupin III and The Daughter of Twenty Faces.




Coincidently I picked this up this morining, havent had time to read it yet but the cover looks awesome.
http://sobrecomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/batman_child_of.jpg


i've read it, tis awesome

[shadowsetaq28]

No mention of Kyu Renjo and Ryu Amakusa both from Academy Q.
Or Morihiko Dan. :smile:

[Ghost]

I think Zenigata is based on Ganimard from the original Lupin stories from back in the day. Even though their was no policeman as constant as Zenigata, Ganimard was the mos notable of all the guest policemen (Similar to Lestrade in Sherlock Holmes stories). It's been years since I read the story (I think it was the blond phantom) I clearly remember Lupin saying that he admired Ganimard because even though he didn't have the brains of the Lupins, Sherlock Holmes or Leqocs of the world, he would never give up once he set eyes on a goal and would fight relentlessly to accomplish it (or something to that effect, like I said, it's been Years).

Like Ganimard, Zenigata is able to best the worst but ordinary criminals, but he is bested to the point of ridicule by the Extraordinary criminals (and Detectives, as seen when he met Sherlock Holmes) just like any other normal person.

Still, a nice thing about Zenigata is that even if he's not a genius, some installments actually have him being practically the only one capable of anticipating Lupin's moves, simply because he's been chasing the man for years and knows his way of thinking.

[1505627]

Still, a nice thing about Zenigata is that even if he's not a genius, some installments actually have him being practically the only one capable of anticipating Lupin's moves, simply because he's been chasing the man for years and knows his way of thinking.

Well, he is somewhat of a genius, just not as much of one as lupin. i mean, the only reason he isn't canned for failing 750 times to catch the same guy is because he can catch pretty much anyone who isn't lupin

[Lobsterdom]

No mention of Hajime Kindaichi?
I'd like to commend his ability in always getting his villains commit suicide in the end.

Master Keaton is the best manga I've ever read. Closely followed by Pineapple Army and Chinmoku no Senkan(The Silent Service from the Sea). One episode, which takes a mere 26 to 28 pages, leaves the reader feeling like he had just seen a full length film. And a great film, that is! I almost always find myself moved to tears after reading a chapter from the series... the animation series was a bit meh, since the animation staff couldn't truly adapt the perfect stance and timing Urasawa established on paper to film. The score by Kuniaki Haishima is gorgeous though.

[Yun Lao]

By detectives, are we talking about detectives as in career-wise, or characters that tend to solve numerous mysterious?

[KnockBlock]

Victorique from Gosick :biggrin:

[stelok]

Victorique de Blois (Gosick) needs a few clues and fewer seconds to solve each and every mystery. She makes Sherlock Holmes look like an amateur.

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/1130/grab22301.jpg
By chateaubriand (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/chateaubriand) at 2011-02-26

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2615/grab19474.jpg
By chateaubriand (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/chateaubriand) at 2011-02-26

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8099/grab18369.jpg
By chateaubriand (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/chateaubriand) at 2011-02-26

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8636/grab08385.jpg
By chateaubriand (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/chateaubriand) at 2011-02-25

[Vidocq]

Well she is Kawai as hell, I'll give you that. Got any examples of her being a great detective.

[FalconX2000]

Narutaki gets an honourable mention for being a very good detective with a giant robot.

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/6816/steamdetective.jpg (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/steamdetective.jpg/)

[flashdisk]

Narutaki gets an honourable mention for being a very good detective with a giant robot.

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/6816/steamdetective.jpg (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/steamdetective.jpg/)



Nice, I remember this. Sad ending though. If guts can be considered as the biggest asset of a detective then Narutaki probably tops it. I mean, he practically tackled Phantom and toppled both of them into that reactor core. He gave his life to save Steam city. Such a sad ending though.



As for the greatest detective, I'd go for Shinichi Kudo. Case closed had so many chapters, I think it surpasses the number of cases solved by Sherlocke Holmes in the books, as well as many of the other contenders for greatest detective.

[Libaax]

Detective Conan was too silly for me and the number of cases doesnt make him a Sherlock Holmes. Thats just long manga like many others. Quantity isnt quality....


Is there actually other new manga/anime with good detective i wonder since Death Note. Most of detective series tend to be really old.

[flashdisk]

Detective Conan was too silly for me and the number of cases doesnt make him a Sherlock Holmes. Thats just long manga like many others. Quantity isnt quality....


Is there actually other new manga/anime with good detective i wonder since Death Note. Most of detective series tend to be really old.

Granted there are fantasy elements, I didn't find them too silly. Compared to a lot of other detective stories out there, I thought they were a bit grounded. Though I'm more acquainted with the tv show than the manga itself, I found a lot of the depictions in the series such as the murders intersting. The tv show used concepts such as riger mortis to determine time of death, finger prints etc.

And even the murders themselves where creative.

For example, I think I remember an episode where a man tries to frame someone for murder by commiting suicide. He plants various evidence that would pin that someone. He then embeds a knife in a block of ice and impales himself on it. The ice melts leaving the knife on his corpse whithout visual proof that he held the knife itself. I found that episode creative.

I also seem to remember another episode where one man kills his twin so that he can impersonate him. That too was impressive.


As for quality versus quantity. I think this time, it has more to do with consistency and experience. And that is something Shinichi Kudo has a lot of.

[FalconX2000]

Nice, I remember this. Sad ending though. If guts can be considered as the biggest asset of a detective then Narutaki probably tops it. I mean, he practically tackled Phantom and toppled both of them into that reactor core. He gave his life to save Steam city. Such a sad ending though.

Nah, Narutaki survives. You see his boot step on the grass behind Ling Ling (the nurse) just before the end credits hit. I was wondering for the last few minutes of the show why he hadn't just used his grapple gun to escape, and it looks like he did.

[flashdisk]

Nah, Narutaki survives. You see his boot step on the grass behind Ling Ling (the nurse) just before the end credits hit. I was wondering for the last few minutes of the show why he hadn't just used his grapple gun to escape, and it looks like he did.

I kind of hope that's true. :) I think after what he and the people in Steam City had gone through, they deserved a happy ending.

But it was kind of left up in the air. The shoe and pants for me was too similar to what many other characters of the series normally wear, the owner of the leg at the last scene could have been anybody(it was also far too concealed in shadow). And from what I can recall, he didn't use the grappling gun to save himself, because he used it to tangle up Phantom's legs to make it easier for him to ram Phantom off the edge. Also it was shown that Phantom was tightly grasping Narutaki as they toppled off. The grappling hook gun was also shown trailing them as they fell off.

Ling Ling was also close by, close enough to see what happened. And she was in a state of deep bittersweet melancholy. She wasn't her normally cheerful self, happy because the city was saved. She instead was shown being cradled by her sister thinking about Narutaki. Also Ru Bled's final words before he seemingly fell back on to the ground and passed away was to say, "Narutaki, let's see each other again in this city".


The final episode was kind of sad. The city was in shambles. Its interesting that so many of Narutaki's friends and rivals joined forces to try to fight off Phantom's attack on the city. A number of them dying as a result. The last few episode had a tone of hopeleness and desperation.


Narutaki had guts facing the Phantom.The Night Phantom is one of the more brutal characters I've seen.The guy was blowing up everything, trying to take down everyone and everything in the city. The character was beating up Narutaki, destroying the name of his family, harming the people he cares for and trying to force Narutaki to choose between two evils, both of which would still destroy the city and kill the people in it. To fight the Phantom and find a third option was admirable.

[Damian Wayne]

I'm torn between L and Shinichi Kudo. Although L is a genius and totally amazing at figuring out the smallest of details, I am more partial to Shinichi because he emulates Sherlock Holmes - who I see as the world's greatest detective until Bruce Wayne came along. :wink:

[Sound Silence]

Detective Gumshoe is the greatest detective in any media. :smile:

[Vidocq]

, I am more partial to Shinichi because he emulates Sherlock Holmes - who I see as the world's greatest detective until Bruce Wayne came along. :wink:

I don't want to derail this thread or anything but how is Batman a better Detective than Sherlock Holmes? This is a real pet peeve of mine, because really, I don't think he deserves that title. It's really something decided by some guy in Marketing rather than something out of the page. The only time I've read Batman as being a true contender for the title is in The Forensic Files of Batman (highly recomended btw) and that's because there was a concious decision to try and earn it.

[Libaax]

Batman being greater is only for superhero fans that have never read Sherlock Holmes. Batman is rarely written well as a detective let alone a great detective.

Vidoq since we share Sherlock Holmes in common have you seen Holmes like anime,manga that care to recommend ? Not as kiddy like like Conan of course.

[Damian Wayne]

Detective Gumshoe is the greatest detective in any media. :smile:

NGL, totally LOL'd as soon as I read this sentence. What a WIN.

I don't want to derail this thread or anything but how is Batman a better Detective than Sherlock Holmes? This is a real pet peeve of mine, because really, I don't think he deserves that title. It's really something decided by some guy in Marketing rather than something out of the page. The only time I've read Batman as being a true contender for the title is in The Forensic Files of Batman (highly recomended btw) and that's because there was a concious decision to try and earn it.

Um, I was just making a passing comment since Batman has been called "the world's greatest detective" and I thought it would be funny since we're all comic lovers here, right? :redface: Whether he is or not is up for debate and totally not why I mentioned him.

[Guy1]

I'm casting my vote in for L.

[Beacon]

Batman being greater is only for superhero fans that have never read Sherlock Holmes. Batman is rarely written well as a detective let alone a great detective.

On various occasions Tim, Barbara, and Alfred have all struck me as better detectives than Bruce. (Red) Robin being a better detective (or at least potentially better) is kind of a defining character trait from the beginning. Oracle has done most of the detective work for the Batfamily for ages and stories where Batman actually does some sleuthing often only show Bruce solving the crime after his butler makes some offhand observation.

[Libaax]

On various occasions Tim, Barbara, and Alfred have all struck me as better detectives than Bruce. (Red) Robin being a better detective (or at least potentially better) is kind of a defining character trait from the beginning. Oracle has done most of the detective work for the Batfamily for ages and stories where Batman actually does some sleuthing often only show Bruce solving the crime after his butler makes some offhand observation.

Red Robin can show more detective work because Batman is written more often as superhero ass kicker and not as detective like Red Robin.

I can see his potentially better ability but current state he isnt better detective than Batman. Batman must be the best detective of his family simply because he is the master who thought them the work even if he himself dont use it as often.

[Beacon]

Red Robin can show more detective work because Batman is written more often as superhero ass kicker and not as detective like Red Robin.

I can see his potentially better ability but current state he isnt better detective than Batman. Batman must be the best detective of his family simply because he is the master who thought them the work even if he himself dont use it as often.

Batman didn’t teach Tim how to be a detective. Heck, the whole reason Tim IS Robin is that Tim discovered the identies of Batman and the first two Robins without the aid of a fancy supercomper, insightful butler, or genious hacker information broker to lean on.

Batman has hired Jason freaking Bard to help him solve crimes. What kind of lousy “World’s Greatest Detective” hires another detective to do his job for him?

[MrHalfawake]

Narutaki gets an honourable mention for being a very good detective with a giant robot.

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/6816/steamdetective.jpg (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/steamdetective.jpg/)

Shoutarou Kaneda get's better credit for being a detective wit a Gianter more Iconic robot.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7039/tetsujin28.jpg (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/tetsujin28.jpg/)



seriously though the correct answer is kiichi goto from Patlabor (withc also happens to be the best anime ever but I digress)

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/5560/gototheguns.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/gototheguns.jpg/)

not a detective dettective (a police captain) but it's scary just how sharp this guy is.

seriously go watch Patlabor. It's awesome.

[Libaax]

Batman didn’t teach Tim how to be a detective. Heck, the whole reason Tim IS Robin is that Tim discovered the identies of Batman and the first two Robins without the aid of a fancy supercomper, insightful butler, or genious hacker information broker to lean on.

Batman has hired Jason freaking Bard to help him solve crimes. What kind of lousy “World’s Greatest Detective” hires another detective to do his job for him?

Im Red Robin fan but i dont see how discovering a dodgy hidden secret identity makes him greater detective. Batman is by far the best in his field. He shows in Tec and many comics.

Batman might not be written as tec often but Tim like many others learned from him. Thats what being Robin means. Fighting,detective both him and Dick learned other than their own abilities.

I rate highly Tim as Detective but i dont want get into another debate about Tim can only be cool by being greater detective than Batman!

I like that Tim isnt perfect like Bats in that thats why i read and enjoy his series. He is smart but no master detective.

[KnockBlock]

Well she is Kawai as hell, I'll give you that. Got any examples of her being a great detective.

Here you go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cBP5A7dA60

[Vidocq]

Batman being greater is only for superhero fans that have never read Sherlock Holmes. Batman is rarely written well as a detective let alone a great detective.

Vidoq since we share Sherlock Holmes in common have you seen Holmes like anime,manga that care to recommend ? Not as kiddy like like Conan of course.
Sorry for taking so long to answer. There really isn't much that isn't kiddy. Even the Sherlock Holmes and Hercule Poirot/Miss Marple anime's are kiddy but I can recommend you this two seinen.
Master Keaton by Naoki Urasawa writer of Monster and Pluto (both also highly recommended). It's more along the lines of something like Ellery Queen than Conan Doyle though. There is both an anime and a manga, and it's episodic as far as I can tell. Note though that while the plots are interesting and Keaton is a fairly likable character, the character work is not nearly as interesting as it is in the Holmes canon.

Also check out Monster (if you haven't already) if you like Thrillers and long lasting puzzles of a plot. Like Lost (with a satisfactory ending) meets the Hannibal Lecter Trilogy.


Um, I was just making a passing comment since Batman has been called "the world's greatest detective" and I thought it would be funny since we're all comic lovers here, right? :redface: Whether he is or not is up for debate and totally not why I mentioned him.
Yeah, sorry. I didn't meant for that to come out as abrasive as it did.


Here you go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cBP5A7dA60

....

SOLD!

[SSJBowser]

Im Red Robin fan but i dont see how discovering a dodgy hidden secret identity makes him greater detective. Batman is by far the best in his field. He shows in Tec and many comics.

Batman might not be written as tec often but Tim like many others learned from him. Thats what being Robin means. Fighting,detective both him and Dick learned other than their own abilities.

I rate highly Tim as Detective but i dont want get into another debate about Tim can only be cool by being greater detective than Batman!

I like that Tim isnt perfect like Bats in that thats why i read and enjoy his series. He is smart but no master detective.

Maybe not as good as Bruce yet, but Bruce did call him as a master detective.

http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr56/LeoTmnt/RedRobinandInsider3.jpg


I always found Tim's deductive skills to be one of his strengths as well.

http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr56/LeoTmnt/Huntresscaught.jpg