View Full Version : Steve, Tony, Thor, & The Seige of Asgard
Moose967
08-22-2009, 12:41 PM
So I had a thought here. There is another thread talking about the return of a classic Avengers team. Lots of debate over there, but I was wondering what you guys make of this bit of analysis. It's not so much a classic Avengers team as it is the reunion of the Big Three, for the first time since "Disassembled". Yeah I know we had Thor team with Iron Man and Captain America during "Secret Invasion", but Thor still hated Tony's guts and Steve was still trapped in time, so Bucky was filling in for Cap.
So here is what I have seen. Captain America: Reborn wraps up in November. The only thing that we know for certain is Steve Rogers will be returned to the 616 universe. "World's Most Wanted" also wraps up in October kicking off "Stark: Disassembled" in IIM #20 also due in November. The 50/50 Variant shows Thor sitting over the body of Tony Stark, a reference to a potent scene from Civil War: The Confession. Matt Fraction has said that "Stark: Disassembled" will begin the rebuilding of Tony Stark as a hero in the eyes of the superhuman community (about damn time!!). So it's possible Thor will finally forgive Tony for his part in "Civil War". Well the solicit for IIM #20 says this story is building towards something big in IIM #25 and I am guessing the return of a full-fledged, not partially brain dead Tony Stark.
Okay well back over in Captain America corner of the MU, Bru has teased for a long time that the next arc in the regular Captain America book is called "Two Americas" and has vaguely said something about Bucky and 50's Cap. How CA:R will affect this or if it will remains to be seen, but I can see Bru giving Buck one last hurrah in the mantle as Steve is on the mend. Bru's stories generally go in 6 issue arcs, so I am assuming it will end about the time IIM #25 hits. So what I am seeing is a return of Steve and Tony about the same time to reunite with Thor in time for the "Seige of Asgard" event which will be an event no doubt, spread across the Avengers family of books instead of the limited series they have been using.
What do you guys think? Possible?
Byzantine
08-22-2009, 12:52 PM
I don't know, i'd really like to see Pym in the mix and don't see how they couldn't. He hasn't seen any of them (except for Tony, whom he is rather pissed at) in years. This whole story idea is about redemption, vindication, and reuniting lost ties. Go with the tact that Slott is trying to give a push to Pym, and it seems more natural to say it'll be an original Avengers team coming together, and not just the big 3. The same rules apply to Banner as to Pym since the whole WWH fiasco. They've all got a lot to own up to in one another's eyes. Sure, Tony's got a bit more, but it's about time they all maned up and apologized to one another and stood side by side again. You know, show the world why they were once called together, "the world's mightiest heroes"
jeffmace
08-22-2009, 01:05 PM
All I can say is that it's way past time for a classic Avengers team to form, especially with Marvel's big three at the front lines.
Secret Invasion's tagline was "Embrace Change," Dark Reign's is "Accept Change." Perhaps a little "Force Change" is in order.
OP poses a possible scenario, though I think it's still unknown about what role Thor will play while the disembodied Red Skull and Steve battle over what may or may not be a brain-dead Tony Stark.
Moose967
08-22-2009, 02:28 PM
OP poses a possible scenario, though I think it's still unknown about what role Thor will play while the disembodied Stark and Steve battle over what may or may not be a brain-dead Tony Stark.
Steve isn't disembodied. "Reborn" clearly shows Skull pulling Steve in his body through the time platform before Sharon broke the connection. Stark isn't disembodied either.
CrimsonComedian
08-22-2009, 04:19 PM
All I can say is that it's way past time for a classic Avengers team to form, especially with Marvel's big three at the front lines.
Secret Invasion's tagline was "Embrace Change," Dark Reign's is "Accept Change." Perhaps a little "Force Change" is in order.
Cap, Thor, Ironman are Marvel's big 3? I don't think so. They're the Avenger's big three most certainly but Wolverine, Spidey, and Hulk are Marvel's big three.
Ken Ashcroft
08-22-2009, 05:07 PM
I don't know about the Hulk. He's had 2 movies and a TVseries but is he bigger than Captain America or Iron Man in terms of status?
mikekerr3
08-22-2009, 05:40 PM
Sales and recognition equal status so he definitely is higher
arp2008
08-22-2009, 07:14 PM
Sales and recognition equal status so he definitely is higherIs that case RULK is f*cking HUGE!!!!!!!! When one considering the qaulity of the Rulk comic, though, thats actually a very sad fact.
mikekerr3
08-22-2009, 07:18 PM
Is that case RULK is f*cking HUGE!!!!!!!! When one considering the qaulity of the Rulk comic, though, thats actually a very sad fact.
I was thinking more of licensing for the general public, that's where Marvels serous profits lie. You find the hulk on a lot more things than Cap.
LeoZippin
08-23-2009, 08:39 AM
There is no doubt that the three are in one of the lowest (If not THE lowest) points in their lives as characters with CAP cast away in time, Tony loosing his mental health and functioning, and Thor being banished out of Asgard which fell to the hands of Doom & Loki.
Add to that the fact that fraction had planted a cap-related storyline in his current IIM arc and Joe Quessada admiting they have this "big trilogy" which started with dissasembled and went through civil war& dark reign and you've got yourself an event right there.
good theory Moose967, I support it.
CMBMOOL
08-23-2009, 12:19 PM
I find it funny to see the original Founders of the Avengers reuniting within next year, as I support this theory as it's good and interesting. :redface:
Steve isn't disembodied. "Reborn" clearly shows Skull pulling Steve in his body through the time platform before Sharon broke the connection. Stark isn't disembodied either.
I meant Steve and the Red Skull were disembodied, and (in my opinion) they're both going to battle for Stark's body.
And, yup, Steve has no body. His consciousness is just hopping into moments in time. Like he said, it was like being a passenger on a car; he could observe but not alter whatever body he occupied during what may or may be either significant or scattered moments in time. And Red Skull's consciousness resides in a TV set.
CaptainOtter
08-23-2009, 12:53 PM
Cap, Thor, Ironman are Marvel's big 3? I don't think so. They're the Avenger's big three most certainly but Wolverine, Spidey, and Hulk are Marvel's big three.
In terms of recognition, you're right. Those are Marvel's most well known and established characters, and just about everyone knows who they are. Even if you havn't picked up a comic, you've heard of Spidey, Wolverine and the Hulk.
What Iron Man, Cap, and Thor are is the big three within the Marvel U. Cap and Tony are big leaders in the hero community (which is why we saw them as the two figureheads in Civil War), and Thor is the most stable powerhouse. Compared to the Sentry and Hulk at least. They are the Avengers trinity, and keep the team going. When they disbanded, the Marvel U just started getting darker and darker.
This is kind of off topic, but I hope with the new movies those three wind up becoming well known figures in pop culture. Iron Man is certainly getting there, and I hope the Cap and Thor movies start earning them some respect.
protonik
08-23-2009, 02:30 PM
I'd say that Iron Man has eclipsed the Hulk in public awareness myself.
philibu
08-23-2009, 05:28 PM
This is off topic but.
If Thor was around during Civil War.
There would be no war.
He would not sit back and watch his friends fight like that.
I'd say that Iron Man has eclipsed the Hulk in public awareness myself.
Iron Man's big push came from a movie... but Hulk had 2 movies, in addition to a live action TV and several cartoons.
Iron Man is a strong up and comer, but Hulk is an established household name.
CMBMOOL
08-24-2009, 04:16 AM
This is off topic but.
If Thor was around during Civil War.
There would be no war.
He would not sit back and watch his friends fight like that.
Wanna bet....http://marvelultimatealliance.marvel.com/
:tongue:
bjstaley
08-26-2009, 05:05 PM
The Point Is That Ironman ,thor And Cap Are The Three Major Founders! And Yes Cap Was Given Honorary Founder Status! Thus Making Them The Big Three.
Monty_Cristo
08-26-2009, 05:46 PM
This is off topic but.
If Thor was around during Civil War.
There would be no war.
He would not sit back and watch his friends fight like that.
he would stay out of it. he had friends on both sides.
he would stay out of it. he had friends on both sides.
A LOT of people had friends on both sides though.
Monty_Cristo
08-26-2009, 05:53 PM
A LOT of people had friends on both sides though.
trust me. he would have sat it out.
trust me. he would have sat it out.
I think he'd initially want stay out of it too (unless the government was stupid enough to try and force him to register rather than giving him an exception like they did Strange).
That said, similar to Namor if Cap asked him for help, I think he'd help.
AllisterH
08-26-2009, 06:08 PM
I think he'd initially want stay out of it too (unless the government was stupid enough to try and force him to register rather than giving him an exception like they did Strange).
That said, similar to Namor if Cap asked him for help, I think he'd help.
This is the one I think that ignores Avengers lore.
Thor's best friend among the hman Avengers wasn't Cap. It was Tony.
This is the one I think that ignores Avengers lore.
Thor's best friend among the hman Avengers wasn't Cap. It was Tony.
I'm not sure I agree... but I don't think it's purely a matter of friendship. I just don't see Thor agreeing to help Tony place Captain America behind bars. I think Thor will think that's wrong, regardless of who he likes more.
Thors not a big fan of government telling heroes how to do their business. We got a taste of that in Busieks Avengers run, when he flat out left to team because of it. And it was Cap that talked him into returning (in Thors words, only Cap would have been able to do that).
And if push comes to shove... I think most characters (and readers for that matter) by default would assume that Cap is right and Tony is wrong because Cap is Cap. He's the most respected person on the planet.
Monty_Cristo
08-26-2009, 06:22 PM
I think he'd initially want stay out of it too (unless the government was stupid enough to try and force him to register rather than giving him an exception like they did Strange).
That said, similar to Namor if Cap asked him for help, I think he'd help.
was it Cap's request that got Namor involved or the Atlanteans little side war? seems to me that Namor was only acting in the interests of his kingdom and out of a petty dislike of Stark.
mikekerr3
08-26-2009, 06:26 PM
This is the one I think that ignores Avengers lore.
Thor's best friend among the hman Avengers wasn't Cap. It was Tony.
Tony was his best friend, but I believe he respected Cap much more,.
In a matter of honor he would follow Cap without a doubt.
AllisterH
08-26-2009, 06:26 PM
I'm not sure I agree... but I don't think it's purely a matter of friendship. I just don't see Thor agreeing to help Tony place Captain America behind bars. I think Thor will think that's wrong, regardless of who he likes more.
Thors not a big fan of government telling heroes how to do their business. We got a taste of that in Busieks Avengers run, when he flat out left to team because of it. And it was Cap that talked him into returning (in Thors words, only Cap would have been able to do that).
And if push comes to shove... I think most characters (and readers for that matter) by default would assume that Cap is right and Tony is wrong because Cap is Cap. He's the most respected person on the planet.
Again, something I harp on. When you have Cap in the equation, one can never have a decent "who is right or wrong" argument.
(BTW, I always find it amusing that Thor is so against the government when he is in fact the government of Asgard)
was it Cap's request that got Namor involved or the Atlanteans little side war? seems to me that Namor was only acting in the interests of his kingdom and out of a petty dislike of Stark.
While it's true that Namor had issues with Stark and the US government anyways, I frankly think he did it purely because Cap asked him to.
I don't think Namor wanted to risk open warefare between Atlantis and SHIELD, even if he thought he'd win. He wasn't necessarily doing his kindgom any favors here. Similar to Black Panther and Wakanda, I think he just got them in more hot water with little actual gain. But he did it for Cap, because Cap asked him. And I honestly think Thor would do the same thing.
Again, something I harp on. When you have Cap in the equation, one can never have a decent "who is right or wrong" argument.
(BTW, I always find it amusing that Thor is so against the government when he is in fact the government of Asgard)
Well, judging from the end result there wasn't a descent "right or wrong" arguement to begin with.
As far as Thor goes... the fact that he's a leader of his own people is probably a big part of the reason why he's a little hesitant to accept their authority (and the fact that he's a god has a little something to do with that too). I'm sure if he showed up at the White House and told the president how to do his job, the president would resent that too.
AllisterH
08-26-2009, 06:39 PM
I don't think Namor wanted to risk open warefare between Atlantis and SHIELD, even if he thought he'd win. He wasn't necessarily doing his kindgom any favors here. Similar to Black Panther and Wakanda, I think he just got them in more hot water with little actual gain. But he did it for Cap, because Cap asked him. And I honestly think Thor would do the same thing.
Another example of writers not thinking this through....
Captain America is against government control of heroes yt turns around and asks help from Namor and T'challa.
Do people really think T'challa and Namor don't a) know every damn vigilante that operates in their kingdom and b) most importantly, would actually allow for vigilantes in their kingdom without them knowing about it.
T'challa, the same guy who infiltrated the Avengers JUST to make sure they were not a threat to Wakanda?
And Steve (and writers) didn't think, "er, that's kind of a bad person to be getting help from"
Another example of writers not thinking this through....
Captain America is against government control of heroes yt turns around and asks help from Namor and T'challa.
Do people really think T'challa and Namor don't a) know every damn vigilante that operates in their kingdom and b) most importantly, would actually allow for vigilantes in their kingdom without them knowing about it.
T'challa, the same guy who infiltrated the Avengers JUST to make sure they were not a threat to Wakanda?
And Steve (and writers) didn't think, "er, that's kind of a bad person to be getting help from"
Sure, these are EXACTLY the type of people Cap wants help from.
Most heroes were just helping saving their own skins, but these people saw an even BIGGER picture. But people like Black Panther and Namor realize the potential danger SHIELD represents if they build themselves a superhero army.
That was the point of the little Coalition of Kings that was created in the Black Panther book. And what ended up happening? SHIELD targeted the Inhumans, they targeted Atlantis, and they targeted Latveria. Wakanda got off lucky with just getting a few battle ships parked off it's shore.
mikekerr3
08-26-2009, 07:55 PM
\
(BTW, I always find it amusing that Thor is so against the government when he is in fact the government of Asgard)
Even Loki is not as bugnuts crazy or corrupt as the MU government. Being against a bad government doesn't mean you are against the idea.
LungerTony
08-26-2009, 08:55 PM
I don't know, i'd really like to see Pym in the mix and don't see how they couldn't. He hasn't seen any of them (except for Tony, whom he is rather pissed at) in years. This whole story idea is about redemption, vindication, and reuniting lost ties. Go with the tact that Slott is trying to give a push to Pym, and it seems more natural to say it'll be an original Avengers team coming together, and not just the big 3. The same rules apply to Banner as to Pym since the whole WWH fiasco. They've all got a lot to own up to in one another's eyes. Sure, Tony's got a bit more, but it's about time they all maned up and apologized to one another and stood side by side again. You know, show the world why they were once called together, "the world's mightiest heroes"
I have tuburculosis and am wanted by Interpol, and I support this message!
Frank
08-26-2009, 09:51 PM
trust me. he would have sat it out.
Yea because it's Thor's style to sit on things. :biggrin: He likes to watch things patiently, he's that kind of calm, cerebral person.
It's more likely that he would have stood with Cap. I think in the eyes of Thor, Cap is the most noble human being he has ever encountered. And then he would have bashed both heroes in the head to stop being morons.
Another option would have been that he would have found and represented a third side in the war a la Batman's side in Kingdom Come.
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