This team of black heroes....

[son of jorel]

What do you think?

black panther
blue marvel
photon
storm
triathlon
luke cage
brother voodoo
warmachine.....

you have brains brawn and power in this team. how would they fare against other teams?

this is a one off mini series waiting to happen...

[Gamiel]

What do you think?

black panther
blue marvel
photon
storm
triathlon
luke cage
brother voodoo
warmachine.....

you have brains brawn and power in this team. how would they fare against other teams?

this is a one off mini series waiting to happen...

First - Why are they working together?

Second - hasn’t Triathlon changed his name to 3D-Man?

Third - to answer your question: rather good actually

[Shellhead]

First - Why are they working together?

Don't you get it, man? They're all black! This is brilliance!!!

[Greg Anderson]

Oh boy....

[Gamiel]

Don't you get it, man? They're all black! This is brilliance!!!

And?

Give me a reason to why they are together.

[Soundrave]

And?

Give me a reason to why they are together.

Eight characters. All black. With brains, brawn and power. Need you more reasons than that?

[Gamiel]

Eight characters. All black. With brains, brawn and power. Need you more reasons than that?

Yes.

It dosen't need to be a big or complicated reason just a reason. That they are recruited to became the newest Exiles are good enough.

[Grapeweasel]

Somewhere the Falcon is sitting around pissed....

[arachne_azure]

Somewhere the Falcon is sitting around pissed....

Not to mention Battlestar, Patriot, Bishop, Debrii, Rage, and Nightthrasher

[Gamiel]

Not to mention Battlestar, Patriot, Bishop, Debrii, Rage, and Nightthrasher

No love for Blade, Black Knight, Black Beast, Bedlam and King Bedlam?

[Free-Man]

No love for Blade, Black Knight, Black Beast, Bedlam and King Bedlam?

Bedlam is dead and King Bedlam is depowered.

And unfortunately, you can't really do an all...anything team without it being racist in some way.

[Gamiel]

Bedlam is dead and King Bedlam is depowered.


Didn't know that, thanks.


And unfortunately, you can't really do an all...anything team without it being racist in some way.

An all Green team would be multiply species

[Free-Man]

An all Green team would be multiply species

Ha! Yes, but as far as HUMAN skin tones go, it's just one of those things where either way people are gonna bitch.

There was a lot of fan outrage and sales drops when the recent JLA lost most of it's white members in Final Crisis (so they were left with a team of three black people, one asian, and one white girl) and the rumors that another black hero (Icon) was going to join up didn't help matters.

On that same token, I've seen a smaller but still vocal number of people complain that James Robinson's new JLA spinoff is all white so far three minority characters have appeared, and two were immediately killed off and another was written away.

So even though I myself am part black and I love seeing black heroes in prominent roles, I probably wouldn't support an all-black superteam anymore than I would support an all-any other team.

[XPac]

What do you think?

black panther
blue marvel
photon
storm
triathlon
luke cage
brother voodoo
warmachine.....

you have brains brawn and power in this team. how would they fare against other teams?

this is a one off mini series waiting to happen...

With Blue Marvel alone, you're going to fare pretty darn well. They're more than powerful enough to handle just about anything. If anything, I'd say this team was overpowered unless they're duking it out with something borderline cosmic.

I'm personally not a fan of placing all the black characters in one book since I'd rather they spread the wealth and add a little diversity to all the corners of the MU... but if it's just a mini that would be cool.

Still... it would be kinda funny if they added a token white guy to the team. US Agent or something.

[daveageallen]

i thought segregation was repeiled

[son of jorel]

First - Why are they working together?

Second - hasn’t Triathlon changed his name to 3D-Man?

Third - to answer your question: rather good actually

use a bit of imagination. it could be an alternate future mini where black people are still treated as second class citizens but a team of them got together saved the world and gained respect...or a time travel adventure where blue marvel of the past needed modern day heroes to repel some threat to earth in his time, but being from a racist time didnt trust any white heroes to bring back with him...whatever.. it could just be a jolly romp and give some black characters a boost as well.

[Kasper Cole]

Oh boy....

Indeed lol

Not that they NEED a reason to get together other than the standard superhero fare that every other team does....but lets just say they're teaming up to take on Hydra after they've kidnapped Josiah Bradley. Bradley has a working version of the Super Soldier Serum running through his veins, the other heroes don't know of his existence so they guys band together to save him...but triathlon or 3D or whatever name that wack character goes by now should be replaced with Josiah X.

Wasn't McDuffie supposed to be doing a mini at DC about the African American Superhero community and such?

[spiderwire]

What do you think?

black panther
blue marvel
photon
storm
triathlon
luke cage
brother voodoo
warmachine.....

you have brains brawn and power in this team. how would they fare against other teams?

this is a one off mini series waiting to happen...

Actually looking at this team from a power perspective, they are formitable. Only one weakness, a true telepath although Voodoo has limited skills.

[taozen]

One thing you could do is have someone like the Red Skull attempt to kidnap and or assassinate some lot of the darker skinned heroes. of course the Skull being behind the villain would be revealed in the end. But there would have to be a reason these heroes would band together. I remember when Geoff johns run in which the skull released a red chemical weapon and decided that he was going to frame Wakanda to start a war between Wakanda and the US. He wanted to take out Wakanda. of course he failed and Panther defeated the Red Skull in combat and broke his jaw. So I always wondered why the Skull was not used as a villain for Black Panther and other minority heroes.

[Omega Alpha]

This is the 367573th time someone posts a team like that, formed exclusively by black superheroes.

And like every other time, it's a silly idea and a silly thread.

[XPac]

One thing you could do is have someone like the Red Skull attempt to kidnap and or assassinate some lot of the darker skinned heroes. of course the Skull being behind the villain would be revealed in the end. But there would have to be a reason these heroes would band together. I remember when Geoff johns run in which the skull released a red chemical weapon and decided that he was going to frame Wakanda to start a war between Wakanda and the US. He wanted to take out Wakanda. of course he failed and Panther defeated the Red Skull in combat and broke his jaw. So I always wondered why the Skull was not used as a villain for Black Panther and other minority heroes.

In Red Skulls mind, I don't think most of the minority characters are worth his attention (again, in HIS mind).

That said, BP and Red Skull is a very cool potential rivalry. I'd like to see more of that down the line.

[Kasper Cole]

This is the 367573th time someone posts a team like that, formed exclusively by black superheroes.

And like every other time, it's a silly idea and a silly thread.

I'm saying though what makes the idea so silly? I haven't seen the other threads but most of the people on that list actually know each other and are friends (the exception being Blue Marvel) and in the idea I posted about them rescuing Isaiah Bradley it would make sense for them to get involved and for heroes of other races to possibly not even know about what's going on.


That said, BP and Red Skull is a very cool potential rivalry. I'd like to see more of that down the line.

Especially considering the last time the two of them met T'Challa broke his damn jaw. Skull being how he is likely hasn't forgotten.

[Hindsight lad]

Hmmm....

Not a bad team. Panther, Storm, Photon, and Brother Voodoo already know each other (and Cage has a non-sexual crush on the Panther:wink: )

I'm on the fence with War Machine and 3-D Man. Is Rhodey the joining type? And who would be the leader? Interesting tensions there.

Blue Marvel presents the Sentry/Superman problem. When one member of your group can juggle planets, the guy who is three times faster than average kind of gets lost in the shuffle. You need a really good writer to explain how he doesn't solve every problem in the first five minutes.


Alternative Black teams:

African Avengers

Storm, Scarlet Scarab, Impala, (the hero from Zanzibar, blanking on his name, Spear?), Vibraxes, Queen Divine Justice, Afrikaa, and the original Golden Age Ka-Zar as the token honkey.

The Airmen, Alabama's official Initiative team:

Eddie March, Sprocket, Cardinal, and Wildstreak mentor a group of brilliant kids in a high tech team. (An homage to the Tuskegee Airmen, natch)

Hindsight lad

[XPac]

I'm saying though what makes the idea so silly? I haven't seen the other threads but most of the people on that list actually know each other and are friends (the exception being Blue Marvel) and in the idea I posted about them rescuing Isaiah Bradley it would make sense for them to get involved and for heroes of other races to possibly not even know about what's going on.




Well... truthfully I DO think it's somewhat silly that only black heroes would bother doing this.

People like Patriot (who obviously should be a part of any mission to help Isaiah Bradley) or Cage are a part of teams. Their non-black teammates would realistically go with them to help.

In order for that to work, you'd have to take guys like that out of the equation. Otherwise you're making it completely obvious that they're excluding white characters purely for the sake of excluding white characters.

[Alan2099]

And?

Give me a reason to why they are together.
The idea of a black team has been brought up several times. One of the previous ideas I personally had was that the heroes didn't come together as a team. They came together as celebrity guests in an outreach program for inner city kids, and while there, the group is attacked, one things leads to another and before they really have time to get settled down, everybody referring to them as a team, and they've already got responsibilities, maybe funding, and everybody is looking up to them. And then when things slow down, they realize that while they have no problems working with each other, with the clashing of personalities and beliefs, they have a very hard time actually functioning as a team.



Still... it would be kinda funny if they added a token white guy to the team. US Agent or something.
I've seen several comics where people thought Spider-man was actually a black guy under his mask. That might be a fun idea to play around with.

[XPac]

I've seen several comics where people thought Spider-man was actually a black guy under his mask. That might be a fun idea to play around with.

I thought the "What Huh" which answered the question "What if the Black Panther were white" was pretty cool.

[Alan2099]

I thought the "What Huh" which answered the question "What if the Black Panther were white" was pretty cool.
That was one of the better ideas in that comic.

[Kasper Cole]

Well... truthfully I DO think it's somewhat silly that only black heroes would bother doing this.

People like Patriot (who obviously should be a part of any mission to help Isaiah Bradley) or Cage are a part of teams. Their non-black teammates would realistically go with them to help.

In order for that to work, you'd have to take guys like that out of the equation. Otherwise you're making it completely obvious that they're excluding white characters purely for the sake of excluding white characters.


It's been shown numerous times that heroes with dual membership on teams don't always bring their teammates along or call them for backup. Notice how Wolverine didn't bring an entire team of New Avengers along with him when all they were doing was sitting on the couch watching TV? Or how Stature and Vision don't bring along the rest of the Young Avengers for back up when they're running around with Hank and his crew? The only differece in this situation would be the race of the characters an that most of them are actually good friends.

[Umbra]

First - Why are they working together?

Second - hasn’t Triathlon changed his name to 3D-Man?

Third - to answer your question: rather good actually

Because they want to? :eek:

[Umbra]

Ha! Yes, but as far as HUMAN skin tones go, it's just one of those things where either way people are gonna bitch.

There was a lot of fan outrage and sales drops when the recent JLA lost most of it's white members in Final Crisis (so they were left with a team of three black people, one asian, and one white girl) and the rumors that another black hero (Icon) was going to join up didn't help matters.

On that same token, I've seen a smaller but still vocal number of people complain that James Robinson's new JLA spinoff is all white so far three minority characters have appeared, and two were immediately killed off and another was written away.

So even though I myself am part black and I love seeing black heroes in prominent roles, I probably wouldn't support an all-black superteam anymore than I would support an all-any other team.

100 % correct. It's really sad at the HUGE double standard for folk have. They really need to look in the mirror.

[XPac]

It's been shown numerous times that heroes with dual membership on teams don't always bring their teammates along or call them for backup. Notice how Wolverine didn't bring an entire team of New Avengers along with him when all they were doing was sitting on the couch watching TV? Or how Stature and Vision don't bring along the rest of the Young Avengers for back up when they're running around with Hank and his crew? The only differece in this situation would be the race of the characters an that most of them are actually good friends.

It depends on the character. Wolverine does his own thing all the time. It's frankly more in character for him to do that, rather than asking his team to go with him.

Stature and Vision were sort of shoe-horned into the MA by circumstnace... they never intentionally isolated themselves from their teammates. First chance she got, she ran and got her old team. I'm 100% if Patriot went off to save his grandfather, his team would go with him.

Does it make sense for Cage to go off and save Isaiah Bradly with a different team when already lives with a group of guys that DO know who Bradly is and would gladly help out?

You could try to shoe horn in a reason for Cage not to include his teammates, but it just makes more sense to just NOT use Cage and focus instead on solo with no baggage attached.

[Kasper Cole]

It depends on the character. Wolverine does his own thing all the time. It's frankly more in character for him to do that, rather than asking his team to go with him.

Stature and Vision were sort of shoe-horned into the MA by circumstnace... they never intentionally isolated themselves from their teammates. First chance she got, she ran and got her old team. I'm 100% if Patriot went off to save his grandfather, his team would go with him.

Does it make sense for Cage to go off and save Isaiah Bradly with a different team when already lives with a group of guys that DO know who Bradly is and would gladly help out?

You could try to shoe horn in a reason for Cage not to include his teammates, but it just makes more sense to just NOT use Cage and focus instead on solo with no baggage attached.

Cage is capable of doing his own thing too at times. Just like Wolverine does, and just like his boy Danny does. For certain situations they either choose to go it alone of handle it with other people. Not saying they shouldn't offer to help, but it would be no less odd for Cage to turn their help down than it would be for Wolverine and Danny to do the very same thing.

Would it be any different than when Speed and Wiccan went searching for the Scarlett Witch? They didn't bring the entire team along with them, it was something deeply personal that they wanted to do on their own. Sometimes a member of a team leaves to join another team for a bit.

It makes sense if you want it to, it'd be a simple as just having Cage go off to take care of the Isaiah situation with another team because the New Avengers are busy taking a care of something else at the same time, happens ALL THE TIME in comics. Just recently Clint and Bobbi went off to go confront War Machine about what he was doing and they didn't bring along their current team, they went and got people who had closer ties to Rhodey than his current team and confronted him.

[XPac]

Cage is capable of doing his own thing too at times. Just like Wolverine does, and just like his boy Danny does. For certain situations they either choose to go it alone of handle it with other people. Not saying they shouldn't offer to help, but it would be no less odd for Cage to turn their help down than it would be for Wolverine and Danny to do the very same thing.

Would it be any different than when Speed and Wiccan went searching for the Scarlett Witch? They didn't bring the entire team along with them, it was something deeply personal that they wanted to do on their own. Sometimes a member of a team leaves to join another team for a bit.

It makes sense if you want it to, it'd be a simple as just having Cage go off to take care of the Isaiah situation with another team because the New Avengers are busy taking a care of something else at the same time, happens ALL THE TIME in comics. Just recently Clint and Bobbi went off to go confront War Machine about what he was doing and they didn't bring along their current team, they went and got people who had closer ties to Rhodey than his current team and confronted him.

But this isn't a case of Cage doing his own thing, it's a case of doing this with one team over another. Why would Cage refuse help from his teammates, yet still accept from this all black team? If there's no answer to that queston, then you're back to excluding non-black characters purely for the same of excluding non-black characters.

If it ends up coming off as forced, it looks kinda dumb regardless of whether people incorporate racial overtones or not. The Clint and Bobbi thing is a perfect example... it's ridiculously random that the West Coast Avengers would decide to get together to go after War Machine. That was bringing the West Coast Avengers together PURELY because a writer wanted to bring the West Coast Avengers together.

If there isn't a better reasons, and the REAL answer is the writer just wanted to use an all black cast, that's perfectly fine... but that will come with a price. People will call the writer on that.

[Freakzeek]

But this isn't a case of Cage doing his own thing, it's a case of doing this with one team over another. Why would Cage refuse help from his teammates, yet still accept from this all black team? If there's no answer to that queston, then you're back to excluding non-black characters purely for the same of excluding non-black characters.

If it ends up coming off as forced, it looks kinda dumb regardless of whether people incorporate racial overtones or not. The Clint and Bobbi thing is a perfect example... it's ridiculously random that the West Coast Avengers would decide to get together to go after War Machine. That was bringing the West Coast Avengers together PURELY because a writer wanted to bring the West Coast Avengers together.

If there isn't a better reasons, and the REAL answer is the writer just wanted to use an all black cast, that's perfectly fine... but that will come with a price. People will call the writer on that.

Why is always "Forced" when Black people , who are all actually friends want to get together to fight crime! You didn't see me complaining during the Initiative tony stark funded Mighty "white" avengers became a team.

[Alan2099]

Why is always "Forced" when Black people
Partially because they are so few black heroes. It's easier to have an all white Avengers team when over 90% of the past Avengers are already white. Lumping all the black heroes together only draws attenttention to the fact that you're just looking to make a black team. When a majority of heroes are one way, it only makes sense that if you're picking a team, the majority of your characters will be that way.

[XPac]

Why is always "Forced" when Black people , who are all actually friends want to get together to fight crime! You didn't see me complaining during the Initiative tony stark funded Mighty "white" avengers became a team.

My arguement was that it was forced if you had black people who were consciously excluding their white team mates for no real reason. Someone like War Machine is fine... but if you include someone like Cage, there's potential baggage involved.

But in the more general sense, I think an all white team is perceived as less forced since the vast majority of comic book heroes are white males. If you were to randomly select 7-8 guys, there's a good chance you could easily get an all white male group. It's simply easier to see why someone could choose characters they like without looking at color, and end up with a largely white male group. That's the unfortunate truth of the numbers.

If for example Bendis when forming the NA decided to choose all characters that happened to be jewish, then I think a lot of people would question whether or not being Jewish didn't have a lot to do with his choices. That's not an entirely fair conclusion to make... but it's an understandable one.

[Kasper Cole]

Why is always "Forced" when Black people , who are all actually friends want to get together to fight crime! You didn't see me complaining during the Initiative tony stark funded Mighty "white" avengers became a team.

To be fair X-Pac also said it was forced how the West Coast Avengers reunion came about, but I don't happen to think that was forced at all. People do different things with different friends all the time, they have certain things that bond them together more than other things.

The truth of the matter is whatever reason is given for them coming together would be met with cries of it being forced. During Hudlin's run on Black Panther he had an arc that featured T'Challa, Blade, Luke Cage, Brother Voodoo, and Photon. Every character had a specific reason for being in the situation they were in yet people complained that it was forced and was silly.

Priest's book the Crew got similar complaint even though the cast he had wasn't the one he originally wanted.

McDuffie got blasted with the same complaint and worse at the beginning of his JLA run despite the fact that editorial picked the team he would be writing.

Just one of those things that if you're gonna do it you just gotta do it because there are gonna be complaints regardless.

[Umbra]

My arguement was that it was forced if you had black people who were consciously excluding their white team mates for no real reason. Someone like War Machine is fine... but if you include someone like Cage, there's potential baggage involved.

But in the more general sense, I think an all white team is perceived as less forced since the vast majority of comic book heroes are white males. If you were to randomly select 7-8 guys, there's a good chance you could easily get an all white male group. It's simply easier to see why someone could choose characters they like without looking at color, and end up with a largely white male group. That's the unfortunate truth of the numbers.

If for example Bendis when forming the NA decided to choose all characters that happened to be jewish, then I think a lot of people would question whether or not being Jewish didn't have a lot to do with his choices. That's not an entirely fair conclusion to make... but it's an understandable one.

That is a load of crap, and a BS excuse.

[XPac]

That is a load of crap, and a BS excuse.

So if Bendis' new Avengers team were composed completely of jewish characters, you wouldn't get the sense that it was forced?

If so, you should be proud of yourself for giving the writer the benefit of the doubt. But I in all likelihood would find it a bit forced, to be perfectly honest UNLESS he bent over backwards to come up with a reason for an all jewish team to be formed.

[Alan2099]

The truth of the matter is whatever reason is given for them coming together would be met with cries of it being forced. During Hudlin's run on Black Panther he had an arc that featured T'Challa, Blade, Luke Cage, Brother Voodoo, and Photon. Every character had a specific reason for being in the situation they were in yet people complained that it was forced and was silly.
Let's face it, Hudlin isn't exactly the most subtle writer in the world.

That is a load of crap, and a BS excuse.
I'm curious as to why you feel that way? What part of what he said wasn't true?

[Umbra]

So if Bendis' new Avengers team were composed completely of jewish characters, you wouldn't get the sense that it was forced?

If so, you should be proud of yourself for giving the writer the benefit of the doubt. But I in all likelihood would find it a bit forced, to be perfectly honest UNLESS he bent over backwards to come up with a reason for an all jewish team to be formed.

No I would not care...so what this is fiction...it is not real. It is made up... I NEVER look at race when i read comics...I just read them...and I have always...even with white, straight, blue eye and blonde heroes...I still read the comics...why does it matter so much to some?

Just like Lady Liberatiors...i LIKED IT... I just see all these excuses as a double standards.

It's no different then black football or basket players knowing each other and after playing against each other...wanting to be on the same team. Is that Forced?

[Kasper Cole]

So if Bendis' new Avengers team were composed completely of jewish characters, you wouldn't get the sense that it was forced?

If so, you should be proud of yourself for giving the writer the benefit of the doubt. But I in all likelihood would find it a bit forced, to be perfectly honest UNLESS he bent over backwards to come up with a reason for an all jewish team to be formed.

If they were all characters who have no previous relationships then yeah it might seem forced, but as it is everyone that the threadstarter mentioned all DO have ties to one another and have been shown to be friends and teammates in the past (with the exception of Blue Marvel).

[XPac]

No I would not care...so what this is fiction...it is not real. It is made up... I NEVER look at race when i read comics...I just read them...and I have always...even with white, straight, blue eye and blonde heroes...I still read the comics...why does it matter so much to some?

Just like Lady Liberatiors...i LIKED IT... I just see all these excuses as a double standard.

It's no different then black football or basket players knowing each other and after playing against each other...wanting to be on the same team. Is that Forced?

And that's a very respespectable attitude.

Though the flip side of that is this... if it's fiction and there's no value at looking at race, should writers even bother trying to create new minority characters, or profiling them more? Is there anything wrong with the Mighty "White" Avengers as it was called in this thread, if race doesn't matter?

I'm not sure there's a right answer to that... I'm just pointing out that it can be a tough balancing act.

And in regards to the lady liberators... I would place that in the forced category too. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy it... but it was forced. For She-Hulk to decide to fight Red Hulk with a team consisting SOLELY of females is silly... it's fun, but it's silly.

[Umbra]

And that's a very respespectable attitude.

Though the flip side of that is this... if it's fiction and there's no value at looking at race, should writers even bother trying to create new minority characters, or profiling them more? Is there anything wrong with the Mighty "White" Avengers as it was called in this thread, if race doesn't matter?

I'm not sure there's a right answer to that... I'm just pointing out that it can be a tough balancing act.

And in regards to the lady liberators... I would place that in the forced category too. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy it... but it was forced. For She-Hulk to decide to fight Red Hulk with a team consisting SOLELY of females is silly... it's fun, but it's silly.

There isn't ANYTHING WRONG WITH Mighty "whitey: Avengers. I loved the book...to me I was just a comic book.

But there shouldn't be a issue with a Black Team either. Comics are suppose to be fun...comics ARE SILLY. That is the point...All fiction is a contrivance, it is not real, it is suppose to be fun. As long as it is fun and a good story WHO CARES?

[XPac]

There isn't ANYTHING WRONG WITH Mighty "whitey: Avengers. I loved the book...to me I was just a comic book.

But there shouldn't be a issue with a Black Team either. Comics are suppose to be fun...comics ARE SILLY. That is the point...All fiction is a contrivance, it is not real, it is suppose to be fun. As long as it is fun and a good story WHO CARES?

I'm sure comic writers wish more people had your attitude.

But some fans clearly are bothered by the idea of an all black team, and some aren't thrilled about the majority of teams being all white.

I'll admit, I sometimes wish there were a few more characters of color here and there. But you're right... it's no big deal either way.

[Kasper Cole]

But some fans clearly are bothered by the idea of an all black team, and some aren't thrilled about the majority of teams being all white.

It's really a crappy situation..I've been reading comics since I was 6 years old, and while at that age kids tend to just like what they like based on how cool something seems as a Young African American kid I was more drawn to characters who looked like me, it just plays into part of the whole living vicariously though characters bit that we ALL did as children.

On one hand people are saying that it would seem odd for a group of black superheroes to get together because there are so few of them, but at the same time whenever someone says there should be more black superheroes people either post lists of every obscure black character that ever appeared before being shot into limbo or they say writers have to have a perfect reason for creating a black character, so at some point it becomes a catch 22 and it irritates people.

[son of jorel]

maybe some people do not like te idea of this 'black group' because they'd kick everybody else's favourite groups ass :wink:

seriously, i would just look on such a gathering as 'celebrating' how far black superheroes have come, and maybe give some younger black readers some positive images of black heroes. any adventure could actually take place during 'black history month'. just a 'one off' gathering' for a big adventure. thats it. whats wrong with that?

lets face it, a good writer could come up with many scenarios for such a gathering taking place. people shouldnt get 'wound up' about the idea, just see it as something positive.

[XPac]

maybe some people do not like te idea of this 'black group' because they'd kick everybody else's favourite groups ass :wink:



This particular group of black characters certainly could.

[wayfarejourneyman]

Then again, there are the seeds of a pretty awesome team here on this post:

Night Thrasher could be a team mentor, equipment guy
Luke Cage as the Brawn and the Leader
3-D man as the "Face" of the team
Photon as the Powerhouse (sort of)...
Prodigy as the Strategist
and
Mr Gideon as the Other Powerhouse (btw, does this guy have a cheap power set or what?)

Its a good start for a minority team, but the big names on the original list really don't play too well with others. Storm is basically an army unto herself and way to busy with wakandan politics anyway; Black Panther is still recovering from getting thrashed by Doom and Namor (he survived this, how?), and even if he wasn't he's more of a solo guy; Blue Marvel has the Superman power set and so automatically doesn't count, and even if he did he's too cosmic for this team; Warmachine produces way too much collateral damage to work with anybody but tony well, and Brother Voodoo is already an avenger...could anyone fill this list out?

[Kasper Cole]

maybe some people do not like te idea of this 'black group' because they'd kick everybody else's favourite groups ass :wink:

seriously, i would just look on such a gathering as 'celebrating' how far black superheroes have come, and maybe give some younger black readers some positive images of black heroes. any adventure could actually take place during 'black history month'. just a 'one off' gathering' with an open ending that could lead to future adventures. after a while these guys could maybe form a permanent team, not because of colour but because they worked so well together . whatever.

lets face it, a good writer could come up with many scenarios for such a gathering taking place. people shouldnt get 'wound up' about the idea, just see it as something positive.

If they released that book during Black History Month (which I don't celebrate.....365!!) it cause even more of an uproar. The only way I could see it working as a permanent team would be if some fan favorite writer like Slott, Pak, or Brubaker did it and then they'd have to deal with some black fans nitpicking every bit of dialog (Lord knows I still to problems with patriots dialog in Fallen Son).

[son of jorel]

whya are people dismissing blue marvel as a viable member, or as 'too powerful'?

didnt hear any murmurs of discontent when you had hulk surfer, namor and strange on a team together. the avengers have had thor, x-men phoenix...

what, cant a black team be 'too powerful' or have a class 100 member? strange.

i get the feeling that if i fielded a team of 'street level' black heroes, the idea would be better recieved...

[XPac]

Then again, there are the seeds of a pretty awesome team here on this post:

Night Thrasher could be a team mentor, equipment guy
Luke Cage as the Brawn and the Leader
3-D man as the "Face" of the team
Photon as the Powerhouse (sort of)...
Prodigy as the Strategist
and
Mr Gideon as the Other Powerhouse (btw, does this guy have a cheap power set or what?)

Its a good start for a minority team, but the big names on the original list really don't play too well with others. Storm is basically an army unto herself and way to busy with wakandan politics anyway; Black Panther is still recovering from getting thrashed by Doom and Namor (he survived this, how?), and even if he wasn't he's more of a solo guy; Blue Marvel has the Superman power set and so automatically doesn't count, and even if he did he's too cosmic for this team; Warmachine produces way too much collateral damage to work with anybody but tony well, and Brother Voodoo is already an avenger...could anyone fill this list out?

My view on an all black team, if that if you're going to do it compose it largely of unused people. If you're already in your own book or on a team, leave them be.

Cage is a New Avenger... top selling on-going title in comics. He's fine where he is if you ask me. Storm is an X-Men (part of the time anyways). These are visible high profile minority characters in high profile spots. This is where we want these characters... so taking them off doesn't seem like a good idea.

People like Kasper Cole or Photon (though she's a marvel diva) who are in limbo work better for this sort of project. They're the ones that need it.

[son of jorel]

My view on an all black team, if that if you're going to do it compose it largely of unused people. If you're already in your own book or on a team, leave them be.

Cage is a New Avenger... top selling on-going title in comics. He's fine where he is if you ask me. Storm is an X-Men (part of the time anyways). These are visible high profile minority characters in high profile spots. This is where we want these characters... so taking them off doesn't seem like a good idea.

People like Kasper Cole or Photon (though she's a marvel diva) who are in limbo work better for this sort of project. They're the ones that need it.


My idea was just for a one off romp or short mini, then everyone would go their seperate ways afterwards....
back to wherever.

...unless readers DEMANDED a sequel.


i think some people here would see this as just a 'black thing', but most readers whatever their colour would probably enjoy it, especially if written well enough.

[Kasper Cole]

Then again, there are the seeds of a pretty awesome team here on this post:

Night Thrasher could be a team mentor, equipment guy
Luke Cage as the Brawn and the Leader
3-D man as the "Face" of the team
Photon as the Powerhouse (sort of)...
Prodigy as the Strategist
and
Mr Gideon as the Other Powerhouse (btw, does this guy have a cheap power set or what?)

Its a good start for a minority team, but the big names on the original list really don't play too well with others. Storm is basically an army unto herself and way to busy with wakandan politics anyway; Black Panther is still recovering from getting thrashed by Doom and Namor (he survived this, how?), and even if he wasn't he's more of a solo guy; Blue Marvel has the Superman power set and so automatically doesn't count, and even if he did he's too cosmic for this team; Warmachine produces way too much collateral damage to work with anybody but tony well, and Brother Voodoo is already an avenger...could anyone fill this list out?

Now see, to me THAT team would seem forced. Only a few of them have known each other beforehand or been teammates. I can't think of any reason why Prodigy would suddenly start appearing outside of X-Books, and I frankly have no idea who that last guy even is lol.

For a mini I see No problem with Storm and Black Panther appearing, also Strom being an army to herself never kept her from being on the X-men most of her existence and Black Panther had been a long time member of the Avengers for years, so he's accustomed to being on a team just as much as doing things solo....Blue Marvel does have a basic Superman power set but that shouldn't keep him from any teams consider Ms. Marvel has the same powerset as did countless other members of various teams. Also Brother Voodoo isn't and has never been an avenger.

[XPac]

i think some people here would see this as just a 'black thing', but most readers whatever their colour would probably enjoy it, especially if written well enough.

That's really the key. If a story was good, everything else can be forgiven.

[Kasper Cole]

My view on an all black team, if that if you're going to do it compose it largely of unused people. If you're already in your own book or on a team, leave them be.

Cage is a New Avenger... top selling on-going title in comics. He's fine where he is if you ask me. Storm is an X-Men (part of the time anyways). These are visible high profile minority characters in high profile spots. This is where we want these characters... so taking them off doesn't seem like a good idea.

People like Kasper Cole or Photon (though she's a marvel diva) who are in limbo work better for this sort of project. They're the ones that need it.

See, now those two characters you just mentioned have no connection to each other whatsoever, them coming together I could maybe understand as coming across as forced, but the threadstarters list of characters could very well come together for a mini and it not seemed forced at all IMO.

[XPac]

See, now those two characters you just mentioned have no connection to each other whatsoever, them coming together I could maybe understand as coming across as forced, but the threadstarters list of characters could very well come together for a mini and it not seemed forced at all IMO.

And that's exactly why characters that are in limbo tend to stay in limbo. To incorporate a character like Kasper into the mix, a writer will often have to put a BIT more effort weaving them into the mix. It's often easier to simply not bother, and use the characters that are more well known and well used.

It's easy to stick SPidey or Wolverine in anything and everything because they've already worked with just about anyone, and fought just about anyone. Guys like Prodigy and White Tiger only naturally fit in a few situations... so ya gotta work a bit harder to make it a fit.

[RolandJP]

No one goes off on one when a writer creates an all-woman team. *COUGH*..Lady Liberators. Marvel Divas.

[wayfarejourneyman]

Now see, to me THAT team would seem forced. Only a few of them have known each other beforehand or been teammates. I can't think of any reason why Prodigy would suddenly start appearing outside of X-Books, and I frankly have no idea who that last guy even is lol.

For a mini I see No problem with Storm and Black Panther appearing, also Strom being an army to herself never kept her from being on the X-men most of her existence and Black Panther had been a long time member of the Avengers for years, so he's accustomed to being on a team just as much as doing things solo....Blue Marvel does have a basic Superman power set but that shouldn't keep him from any teams consider Ms. Marvel has the same powerset as did countless other members of various teams. Also Brother Voodoo isn't and has never been an avenger.

Well said, but just because the characters have not met doesn't meen they could not meet. The black superhero community seems to have a decent network, as seen at Storm and BP's wedding -- I think its pretty possible that some of these characters might know each other. If you swap out 3D man with the Falcon or one of the Bradleys you could work out a luke cage connection (Luke + Elija would be very interesting).

A more realistic (and powerful) team might be

Black Panther (Strategist, Benefactor)
Storm (Field Leader)
Black Marvel, if he outlasts his series (Powerhouse, Icon)
Josiah X
Doctor Voodoo (Powerhouse, Magic Guy)

[Kasper Cole]

And that's exactly why characters that are in limbo tend to stay in limbo. To incorporate a character like Kasper into the mix, a writer will often have to put a BIT more effort weaving them into the mix. It's often easier to simply not bother, and use the characters that are more well known and well used.

It's easy to stick SPidey or Wolverine in anything and everything because they've already worked with just about anyone, and fought just about anyone. Guys like Prodigy and White Tiger only naturally fit in a few situations... so ya gotta work a bit harder to make it a fit.

Kasper can EASILY be brought back into the mix right now seeing as how he's a spin off character from Black Panther.

Prodigy should be a member of the X-Club can easily be brought in with little explanation,.

I'm just saying that those characters teaming up would seem forced because they have NO history together whatsoever.

I simply don't buy that a group of superheros who know each other, consider each other friends and have worked together in the past can't work together again to rescue a person they idolize without it seeming "forced".

[XPac]

No one goes off on one when a writer creates an all-woman team. *COUGH*..Lady Liberators. Marvel Divas.

True... but in the same breath I'll bet most would agree it's kinda forced. Again, the notion of assembling a team compossed completely of women to fight Red Hulk is kinda silly.

It just goes to show that something being a tad forced isn't necessarily a bad thing. I guess when the team consists of hot women, comic readers don't seem to mind as much for some reason... can't imagine why that might be the case.

[Kasper Cole]

Well said, but just because the characters have not met doesn't meen they could not meet. The black superhero community seems to have a decent network, as seen at Storm and BP's wedding -- I think its pretty possible that some of these characters might know each other. If you swap out 3D man with the Falcon or one of the Bradleys you could work out a luke cage connection (Luke + Elija would be very interesting).

A more realistic (and powerful) team might be

Black Panther (Strategist, Benefactor)
Storm (Field Leader)
Black Marvel, if he outlasts his series (Powerhouse, Icon)
Josiah X
Doctor Voodoo (Powerhouse, Magic Guy)

They actually do have a decent network, not all of them have met but they all seem to know of each other, even though all of them don't get along.

As I said we've seen a group of Black Superhero team up, a great reason was given, they came together due to circumstances and there was a bit of conflict at times and it was a FUN read, but yet and still people complained and said it was forced and bashed the writer for it. Hudlin's Bad Mutha arc was fun and all some people did was complain how Hudlin was finding ways to put every black superhero together in one book.

[XPac]

Kasper can EASILY be brought back into the mix right now seeing as how he's a spin off character from Black Panther.

Prodigy should be a member of the X-Club can easily be brought in with little explanation,.

I'm just saying that those characters teaming up would seem forced because they have NO history together whatsoever.

I simply don't buy that a group of superheros who know each other, consider each other friends and have worked together in the past can't work together again to rescue a person they idolize without it seeming "forced".

The part about them having no history is kind of my point... because they have less history than the more known characters, the usage of them in general is more forced. That's not to say that they can't or won't be used... just that it'll take more effort to put them into a situation naturally. Again, that's why characters in limbo tend to stay in limbo. Or one of the reasons anyways.

As far as the forced part... again, I'd argue the forced part is not Cage working with these people, and more that he isn't involving his non-black teammates. It's possible to create a reason to justify it... but the fact that a reason needs to be created in the first place is why one would call it forced.

[wayfarejourneyman]

whya are people dismissing blue marvel as a viable member, or as 'too powerful'?

didnt hear any murmurs of discontent when you had hulk surfer, namor and strange on a team together. the avengers have had thor, x-men phoenix...

what, cant a black team be 'too powerful' or have a class 100 member? strange.

i get the feeling that if i fielded a team of 'street level' black heroes, the idea would be better recieved...

Blue Marvel has the same issues as Sentry or Superman for me -- He stopped an alien invasion by himself...he doesnt need a team. The defenders were different -- they pretty much hated the idea of teaming, and spent most of their time fighting extra-dimensional armies and such. I could see Blue Marvel and Sentry teaming to take out the Brotherhood of Badoon, but just cant see either acting with a team.

[Sighphi]

I havent read anything but the first two post...... has this thing already devolved to, "Black heroes cant form a team because there is no valid reason for them to"?

Why dont we revive the last couple of times his has been discussed instead of making a brand new thread about it?

[Kasper Cole]

The part about them having no history is kind of my point... because they have less history than the more known characters, the usage of them in general is more forced. That's not to say that they can't or won't be used... just that it'll take more effort to put them into a situation naturally. Again, that's why characters in limbo tend to stay in limbo. Or one of the reasons anyways.

As far as the forced part... again, I'd argue the forced part is not Cage working with these people, and more that he isn't involving his non-black teammates. It's possible to create a reason to justify it... but the fact that a reason needs to be created in the first place is why one would call it forced.

By that logic though EVERYTHING that happens in most books is forced. As I keep saying it happens all the time that character will leave one team to join up with another for a bit. At what point does it cease to be forced?

[XPac]

By that logic though EVERYTHING that happens in most books is forced. As I keep saying it happens all the time that character will leave one team to join up with another for a bit. At what point does it cease to be forced?

It's forced or not depending on the character.

Wolverine goes off all the time on his own. He doesn't like involving his teammates in his personal matters, and makes that very clear. So him showing up anywhere really isn't forced at all.

It's never forced if that's how the character normally acts anyways. But if that's not the case, then it's easier to question why exactly they're opting not to involve their non-black teamates.

[Werehunter]

If they make an all black team have it form for that reason. Have someone, like Night Thrasher or Prodigy decide to form a team that consists only of black Superheros. He decides that creating such a team could do wonders to help improve the general image of black Superheroes and could be great inspirations for young blacks around the world.

While the book itself should not be about race and should almost never delve into race related issues, if a team forms like this then make that the reason. After they are formed, have them act just like any other supergroup. Such reasoning would blunt many who would be critics that such a team would be forced.

[Kasper Cole]

It's forced or not depending on the character.

Wolverine goes off all the time on his own. He doesn't like involving his teammates in his personal matters, and makes that very clear. So him showing up anywhere really isn't forced at all.

It's never forced if that's how the character normally acts anyways. But if that's not the case, then it's easier to question why exactly they're opting not to involve their non-black teamates.

But it has been shown before that Luke will go off with another group to help a friend or assist someone he respects without calling in the avengers for backup. He's often seen in Iron Fist with the Heroes for Hire crew helping out Danny and he never calls the avengers along with him, he calls Misty and Colleen. Sometimes you call on different friends for different situations.

[XPac]

But it has been shown before that Luke will go off with another group to help a friend or assist someone he respects without calling in the avengers for backup. He's often seen in Iron Fist with the Heroes for Hire crew helping out Danny and he never calls the avengers along with him, he calls Misty and Colleen. Sometimes you call on different friends for different situations.

Sure. He'll team up with his old partner Iron Fist. That's fairly common. If this were a thread about him going off to work with Iron Fist, I doubt anyone would consider that forced. Given their history of working together, it works.

If Iron Fist shows up as the token white guy in this otherwise all Black Team, I think people would buy it.

[Kasper Cole]

Sure. He'll team up with his old partner Iron Fist. That's fairly common. If this were a thread about him going off to work with Iron Fist, I doubt anyone would consider that forced. Given their history of working together, it works.

If Iron Fist shows up as the token white guy in this otherwise all Black Team, I think people would buy it.

And Cage also has a history of working with Black Panther, Falcon (who's from the same neighborhood as cage), and Brother Voodoo. They don't have the history Cage and Danny have together but they have worked together on a few occasions have been shown to be friends and all of them have been shown to have great respect and admiration for Isaiah Bradley (going by my idea for why they should team up).

Actually that very thing happened during Priest's run on Black Panther (issue #17) and people complained about it. T'Challa, Luke, Sam, and Danny all teamed up to fight Nightshade, cottonmouth, stiletto, and cockroach. Brother Voodoo even showed up at one point.

[son of jorel]

Blue Marvel has the same issues as Sentry or Superman for me -- He stopped an alien invasion by himself...he doesnt need a team. The defenders were different -- they pretty much hated the idea of teaming, and spent most of their time fighting extra-dimensional armies and such. I could see Blue Marvel and Sentry teaming to take out the Brotherhood of Badoon, but just cant see either acting with a team.

i dont agree at all.

superman has been aprt of a team with wonder woman, green lantern, flash and martian manhunter and zatanna for decades. can someone say OVERPOWERED?

how has it been shown that blue marvel is any more powerfull than thor, yet nothing is made of the god of thunder being part of the avengers. i sense a double standard here. for years people like me have been waiting for the equivalent of a black superman, yet when he arrives, we get accusuations of 'too powerful'.

yeah, i would like to know how you think blue marvel is any more powerful than thor who has been part of the avengers for years alongside the likes of iron man wonder man hercules and she hulk? thor, a guy who can make galactus crap his pants, destroy alien fleets, lift objects 1/3 the weight of the planet or snap the hulks neck.

your defenders argument does not cut it because despite the CAUSES of WHY these uber powerful heroes banded together, band together they did. for YEARS. sentry surfer, thor, dr strange, namor, phoenix have all been part of teams and various threats have been found for them, yet its too much to find *one* threat for a 'one off' black superhero team. have marvel writers recently been lobotomized?

???

geez, let some black heroes bask in the sun for 5 minutes before ww3 starts . :frown:

[Sighphi]

Thor and Supes have their limits while BM has none.
At this moment he is like Sentry who is just some tremendous power with no limits at all. And Sentry's craziness is pretty much random so you cant call that a weakness at all, hell Bendis himsefl has depicted the thing differently in his comics.

[XPac]

And Cage also has a history of working with Black Panther, Falcon (who's from the same neighborhood as cage), and Brother Voodoo. They don't have the history Cage and Danny have together but they have worked together on a few occasions have been shown to be friends and all of them have been shown to have great respect and admiration for Isaiah Bradley (going by my idea for why they should team up).

Actually that very thing happened during Priest's run on Black Panther (issue #17) and people complained about it. T'Challa, Luke, Sam, and Danny all teamed up to fight Nightshade, cottonmouth, stiletto, and cockroach. Brother Voodoo even showed up at one point.

Sure, but is the assumption there that only black heroes respect or admire Isaiah Bradly enough to bother helping him? Or that only black heroees would just happen to be available? And when you get right down to it, is the reason that only black heroes are being used simply because the writer only wants to use black heroes?

Those are the questions one needs to ask when you decide that sort of thing. If they can be answered, fine. It not, it may come off as forced to some readers. Or in my opinion it might to a lot of readers... we can agree to disagree if you feel otherwise.

[Kasper Cole]

Thor and Supes have their limits while BM has none.
At this moment he is like Sentry who is just some tremendous power with no limits at all. And Sentry's craziness is pretty much random so you cant call that a weakness at all, hell Bendis himsefl has depicted the thing differently in his comics.

We can't say he has NO limits because we simply don't know what yet. The series really doesn't go into too much detail as to what he's actually capable off. Everything is just assumed by other characters or the reader. Sentry's power set is actually much more well defined and he has been shown to be susceptible to psychic attacks and incredibly strong physical attacks (him and hulk beat each other to a bloody pulp but hulk got back up much quicker).

Very much is still not known about Adam, for all we know he could have his very own version of kryptonite.

[XPac]

i dont agree at all.

superman has been aprt of a team with wonder woman, green lantern, flash and martian manhunter and zatanna for decades. can someone say OVERPOWERED?

how has it been shown that blue marvel is any more powerfull than thor, yet nothing is made of the god of thunder being part of the avengers. i sense a double standard here. for years people like me have been waiting for the equivalent of a black superman, yet when he arrives, we get accusuations of 'too powerful'.

yeah, i would like to know how you think blue marvel is any more powerful than thor who has been part of the avengers for years alongside the likes of iron man wonder man hercules and she hulk? thor, a guy who can make galactus crap his pants, destroy alien fleets, lift objects 1/3 the weight of the planet or snap the hulks neck.

your defenders argument does not cut it because despite the CAUSES of WHY these uber powerful heroes banded together, band together they did. for YEARS. sentry surfer, thor, dr strange, namor, phoenix have all been part of teams and various threats have been found for them, yet its too much to find *one* threat for a 'one off' black superhero team. have marvel writers recently been lobotomized?

???

geez, let some black heroes bask in the sun for 5 minutes before ww3 starts . :frown:

The reason Superman can be used is quite frankly because he's usually written badly. That's how most Supermen clones get around the "overpowered" problem.

And there are times it's a problem for Thor as well. It's was ridiculous that the human zodiac were ever even a blip on the radar for a guy like Thor, who battled them many times with the Avengers.

It's often a problem for ANY character at that level. And the sollution to that problem has always been to write the characters BADLY to compensate. A character like Superman or Silver Surfer could solve 90% of their fights in a fraction of a second if they were written correctly. That's why they often work better in space, to be quite honest.

[Sighphi]

Sure, but is the assumption there that only black heroes respect or admire Isaiah Bradly enough to bother helping him? Or that only black heroees would just happen to be available? And when you get right down to it, is the reason that only black heroes are being used simply because the writer only wants to use black heroes?

The whole point of the book Red White and Black is that no one knows about him or care, that Cap JUST found out what was done but in the black community he is a legend. There are articles etc, etc, etc, about this but he isnt really a personality.

Those are the questions one needs to ask when you decide that sort of thing. If they can be answered, fine. It not, it may come off as forced to some readers. Or in my opinion it might to a lot of readers... we can agree to disagree if you feel otherwise.

I just find it very strange every time this conversation happens white folks teaming up is ok but ANYTHING else "seems forced." How can that be possible? Is there some sort of rule that some how a lot have missed that says that white folks are ok and that's where it stops?

[Sighphi]

We can't say he has NO limits because we simply don't know what yet. The series really doesn't go into too much detail as to what he's actually capable off. Everything is just assumed by other characters or the reader. Sentry's power set is actually much more well defined and he has been shown to be susceptible to psychic attacks and incredibly strong physical attacks (him and hulk beat each other to a bloody pulp but hulk got back up much quicker).

Very much is still not known about Adam, for all we know he could have his very own version of kryptonite.

Assumed?
Doesnt the first issue have a meeting recording all this abilities with PICTURES of all his feats?

And ok we cant say he has no limits because ..... none were told but.... isnt that the point? In his limited series.... wouldnt it be extremely necessary to point out something like that?

[XPac]

The whole point of the book Red White and Black is that no one knows about him or care, that Cap JUST found out what was done but in the black community he is a legend. They are articles etc, etc, etc, about this but he isnt really a personality.



I just find it very strange every time this conversation happens white folks teaming up is ok but ANYTHING else "seems forced." How can that be possible? Is there some sort of rule that some how a lot have missed that says that white folks are ok and that's where it stops?

Sure, but the New Avengers new him. He showed up in the first NA annual. The Young Avengers knew him. They met him as well. That was my initial point... don't involve characters that are on teams with people know happen to know Bradley because otherwise you're just going to have to make up a reason to not involve them.

As for the issue of white folks teaming up... go back and few posts. That was already discusssed.

[Kasper Cole]

Sure, but is the assumption there that only black heroes respect or admire Isaiah Bradly enough to bother helping him? Or that only black heroees would just happen to be available? And when you get right down to it, is the reason that only black heroes are being used simply because the writer only wants to use black heroes?

Those are the questions one needs to ask when you decide that sort of thing. If they can be answered, fine. It not, it may come off as forced to some readers. Or in my opinion it might to a lot of readers... we can agree to disagree if you feel otherwise.

No it's simply a case of something meaning MUCH more to one group of people than it does to another. You also have to factor in that Many other heroes don't even know Isaiah exists, he was only widely known in the African American community and among black superheroes, they've been shown to be in awe of his very presence, THAT'S how much he means to them, while I sure the other Avengers would care it just wouldn't mean as much to them as it would Luke, Sam, Rhodey or the others, there's simply a much deeper connection there.

At this point you're just looking for reasons as to why they SHOULDN'T be a team for such a mission, it makes perfect sense and can be explained very easily.

As I said no matter how it happens it's going to come across as forced to some readers, that has more to do with some readers than it has to do with the idea or how it's executed.

[Kasper Cole]

Assumed?
Doesnt the first issue have a meeting recording all this abilities with PICTURES of all his feats?

And ok we cant say he has no limits because ..... none were told but.... isnt that the point? In his limited series.... wouldnt it be extremely necessary to point out something like that?

It is assumed, they have an idea of what he can do, but they don't know the upper limits of his power or the exact nature of them, they didn't even know the source of his powers.

I'm not saying the series didn't have it's flaws, i'm just saying that there's a difference between having no limits and not being shown to have limits.

[Sighphi]

Sure, but the New Avengers new him. He showed up in the first NA annual. The Young Avengers knew him. They met him as well. That was my initial point... don't involve characters that are on teams with people know happen to know Bradley because otherwise you're just going to have to make up a reason to not involve them.

Just because they saw him doesnt mean that they automatically have the respect the black community has. To white folks he is just some guy that is apparently important but the black community he IS important.

By the way ... what NA book did he showed up in?
I mean.............................................. .......... not to prove a point but... he showed up in Black Panther/Storm wedding not the Cage/Jones wedding.....


As for the issue of white folks teaming up... go back and few posts. That was already discusssed.

And can you link where it is explained why white folks teaming up is ok but everything else isnt?

[Sighphi]

It is assumed, they have an idea of what he can do, but they don't know the upper limits of his power or the exact nature of them, they didn't even know the source of his powers.

I'm not saying the series didn't have it's flaws, i'm just saying that there's a difference between having no limits and not being shown to have limits.

Actually..... doesnt he explain what his power is to Iron man so they can take down the evil version?

By the way..... they had pictures.

[Kasper Cole]

Sure, but the New Avengers new him. He showed up in the first NA annual. The Young Avengers knew him. They met him as well. That was my initial point... don't involve characters that are on teams with people know happen to know Bradley because otherwise you're just going to have to make up a reason to not involve them.

As for the issue of white folks teaming up... go back and few posts. That was already discusssed.

He wasn't in the first New Avengers Annual. I think you're thinking of the Black Panther Wedding issue and in that issue Wolverine saw how the Black Heroes were reacting to Isaiah and asked who he was and Luke said "he's kind of the first me", that took place AFTER Young Avengers had wrapped. The only people that can be said for sure to know who Isaiah is and what he went through would be Steve Rogers, Bucky, Stark, and the Young Avengers...everybody else is probably in the dark about him and what he went through.

As I keep pointing out characters on the New Avengers have been shown before to go off and team up with other heroes...Luke Cage has done it, Wolverine has done it, Ronin and Mockingbird have done it, Spidey has done it...it happens all the time.

[Kasper Cole]

Actually..... doesnt he explain what his power is to Iron man so they can take down the evil version?

By the way..... they had pictures.

I might have to read it again but all I remember him telling Iron Man was HOW he got his powers, nothing about upper limits or everything he's capable of doing.

They had pictures of him doing various things but no proof of just HOW strong he was or if he had any weaknesses. They just assumed he was all powerful and unstoppable.

[Sighphi]

I might have to read it again but all I remember him telling Iron Man was HOW he got his powers, nothing about upper limits or everything he's capable of doing.

They had pictures of him doing various things but no proof of just HOW strong he was or if he had any weaknesses. They just assumed he was all powerful and unstoppable.

I'm not saying that they have his power down to a certain amount of exploding suns but the dude is shown to be powerful enough to be a superman character.

[Blade X]

So even though I myself am part black and I love seeing black heroes in prominent roles, I probably wouldn't support an all-black superteam anymore than I would support an all-any other team.

I agree. It would be just as wrong and hypocritical of us to ask for an all black American superhero team, while at the same time complaining about all white American superhero teams. On the flip side, I don't have a problem with an all black superhero team that is based in a country where all (or most) of the population is of black African descent.

That all being said, if I were to make an American superhero team comprised entirely of black heroes of African descent, I would make a team roster that (a) have members with different and unique powers from each other (b) that is not uber/ulta powerful and (c) that is not mostly made up of the usual popular and/or well known black characters.

My American based black superhero team would consist of the following characters.

John Wraith (resurrect him damn it)
Photon/Pulsar
Falcon
Midnight Son
Jessie Bedlam (resurrect him damn it)
Cecilia Reyes
Triathlon/3D Man
Gauntlet

[Umbra]

No one goes off on one when a writer creates an all-woman team. *COUGH*..Lady Liberators. Marvel Divas.

:biggrin: right...the double standard. Infact all you have to do is look at the Hulk thread with PAD and folks were lobbing for Lady Libs...and I agree...but at the same time if we get a black or latino team...they should STFU.

[Spectra]

I would read a book with black heroes, but it has to have a good story, filled with action, a little romance, some sci fi.....oh and Pulsar, Storm and all of those super sexy black men...lol

I also feel that they do all know each other is some way shape form or fashion to gather for an adventure or start their own team. I say they call themselves the Enforcers or P.R.I.D.E. ( Powerful, Rightous, Intelligent, Determined, Empowered)

I think Cage says it best:biggrin:

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7625/marvelrememberblackhero.jpg

[XPac]

Just because they saw him doesnt mean that they automatically have the respect the black community has. To white folks he is just some guy that is apparently important but the black community he IS important.

By the way ... what NA book did he showed up in?
I mean.............................................. .......... not to prove a point but... he showed up in Black Panther/Storm wedding not the Cage/Jones wedding.....



And can you link where it is explained why white folks teaming up is ok but everything else isnt?

It's not really a question of whether anything is okay or not... writers can do whatever the hell they want.

But the reason why an all white team can look less forced is because the vast majority of characters are white males. Even if you were to make a team completely at random, odds are very good that you'd get a completely white male team. Those are the unfortunate numbers. So when people see teams that are mostly or completely white, I think most assume that's just a reflection of that fact.

If Bendis were for example to make the New Avengers consisting of all jewish characters, then some people might assume that there was an agenda at work there. That would of course be speculation, and it might be incorrect... but I nonetheless think that would be somewhat understandable.

If Frank Cho made the team, and had it consist of nothing but attractive women, again I think people might suspect that an agenda was at work there.

Those are just examples. It is of course fair to argue that color and gender don't matter, and whether they are all white or all black is irrelavent. Nonetheless, I think there are actual reasons why an all white male team might slip under the radar, while an all black or an all jewish or an all women team might not. In the case of the later, I'm not sure people would actually complain about it... but that's in part a reflection of the comic book demographic.

[Kasper Cole]

It's not really a question of whether anything is okay or not... writers can do whatever the hell they want.

But the reason why an all white team can look less forced is because the vast majority of characters are white males. Even if you were to make a team completely at random, odds are very good that you'd get a completely white male team. Those are the unfortunate numbers. So when people see teams that are mostly or completely white, I think most assume that's just a reflection of that fact.

If Bendis were for example to make the New Avengers consisting of all jewish characters, then some people might assume that there was an agenda at work there. That would of course be speculation, and it might be incorrect... but I nonetheless think that would be somewhat understandable.

If Frank Cho made the team, and had it consist of nothing but attractive women, again I think people might suspect that an agenda was at work there.

Those are just examples. It is of course fair to argue that color and gender don't matter, and whether they are all white or all black is irrelavent. Nonetheless, I think there are actual reasons why an all white male team might slip under the radar, while an all black or an all jewish or an all women team might not. In the case of the later, I'm not sure people would actually complain about it... but that's in part a reflection of the comic book demographic.

See this is one of the things that is so vexing about this. You make a good point about there simply being more white superheroes so a all black team would stand out as an anomaly (I still don't buy that it would be forced if all the characters knew each other and had a common goal), but at the same time when people say the number of black superheroes should be increased basically the same argument is made..."it shouldn't be forced", "Only if they're made for a good reason", "There are more white american's than black Americans so it makes sense for their not to be too many black superheroes"...So basically we're stuck, no black superheroes can team up without it being called "forced" because there aren't that many black superheroes, but at the same time creating black superheroes should only be done for a very good reason or that is also "forced"...I mean what the hell?

[Sighphi]

It's not really a question of whether anything is okay or not... writers can do whatever the hell they want.

But the reason why an all white team can look less forced is because the vast majority of characters are white males. Even if you were to make a team completely at random, odds are very good that you'd get a completely white male team. Those are the unfortunate numbers. So when people see teams that are mostly or completely white, I think most assume that's just a reflection of that fact.

If Bendis were for example to make the New Avengers consisting of all jewish characters, then some people might assume that there was an agenda at work there. That would of course be speculation, and it might be incorrect... but I nonetheless think that would be somewhat understandable.

If Frank Cho made the team, and had it consist of nothing but attractive women, again I think people might suspect that an agenda was at work there.

Those are just examples. It is of course fair to argue that color and gender don't matter, and whether they are all white or all black is irrelavent. Nonetheless, I think there are actual reasons why an all white male team might slip under the radar, while an all black or an all jewish or an all women team might not. In the case of the later, I'm not sure people would actually complain about it... but that's in part a reflection of the comic book demographic.

This makes no sense.
So since the odds are high for a full white team that's ok but since the odds are lower of other single type teams when they formed it means an agenda?
If you think it's like this there is no odds involved because the ODDS are that there is still a chance at it happening.

If the odds is a 25% chance at this happening...... that means that 1 in 4 teams that CAN be other than white. That means that out of DA, MA, FF, we are going to get a Pacific Islands Posse in there. Hell, the current War Machine book ( last time i checked ) was a bunch of black characters with one Chinese chick. Somehow that happened and there isnt an uproar about it being unnatural or anything of the sort.

[Kasper Cole]

This makes no sense.
So since the odds are high for a full white team that's ok but since the odds are lower of other single type teams when they formed it means an agenda?
If you think it's like this there is no odds involved because the ODDS are that there is still a chance at it happening.

If the odds is a 25% chance at this happening...... that means that 1 in 4 teams that CAN be other than white. That means that out of DA, MA, FF, we are going to get a Pacific Islands Posse in there. Hell, the current War Machine book ( last time i checked ) was a bunch of black characters with one Chinese chick. Somehow that happened and there isnt an uproar about it being unnatural or anything of the sort.

Actually now there are two Asian Characters (one male one female), 3 black characters (two males one female), and one white female character.

[XPac]

This makes no sense.
So since the odds are high for a full white team that's ok but since the odds are lower of other single type teams when they formed it means an agenda?
If you think it's like this there is no odds involved because the ODDS are that there is still a chance at it happening.

If the odds is a 25% chance at this happening...... that means that 1 in 4 teams that CAN be other than white. That means that out of DA, MA, FF, we are going to get a Pacific Islands Posse in there. Hell, the current War Machine book ( last time i checked ) was a bunch of black characters with one Chinese chick. Somehow that happened and there isnt an uproar about it being unnatural or anything of the sort.

Not really. Even if 25% of the hero community was non white, that still wouldn't mean 1 in every 4 teams would be completely non-white... that would only be the case if every minority character decided they wanted to be in a superhero team that didn't have whites. Most I imagine don't care one way or the other.

The simple arguement is that there's a whole lot less minority characters, and even less of them are actively being used. A lot unfortunately are in limbo (though that's getting better).

Of course, that being said there's no gurantee that any combination will or won't create an uproar. It's only my speculation that Bendis creating an all Jewish Avenger team would have people thinking there might be an agenda attached... if he did a good enough job selling the team to the readers, it won't make a difference.

Sometimes readers will buy it, and sometimes they won't. In large part I think it has to do with the writer doing a good enough job telling the story. There are occasions when readers will think a particular combination is forced, and racial issues aren't even a consideration.

[XPac]

See this is one of the things that is so vexing about this. You make a good point about there simply being more white superheroes so a all black team would stand out as an anomaly (I still don't buy that it would be forced if all the characters knew each other and had a common goal), but at the same time when people say the number of black superheroes should be increased basically the same argument is made..."it shouldn't be forced", "Only if they're made for a good reason", "There are more white american's than black Americans so it makes sense for their not to be too many black superheroes"...So basically we're stuck, no black superheroes can team up without it being called "forced" because there aren't that many black superheroes, but at the same time creating black superheroes should only be done for a very good reason or that is also "forced"...I mean what the hell?

Well, there are different ways to tackle that.

You can say it doesn't matter, it's just a bunch of stories, and it shouldn't matter one way or the other what color the characters are.

Or you can try to "force" the issue little by little, so it basically slips below the radar and doesn't become an issue.

Or you can just throw it out there, regardless of what anyone else says or things.

I don't think there's a right or a wrong way to handle it, and regardless of which option is chosen I DO genuinely think more minority characters are being used more (even if that progress is far slower than some might think it should be).

[Omega Alpha]

This makes no sense.
So since the odds are high for a full white team that's ok but since the odds are lower of other single type teams when they formed it means an agenda?
If you think it's like this there is no odds involved because the ODDS are that there is still a chance at it happening.

If the odds is a 25% chance at this happening...... that means that 1 in 4 teams that CAN be other than white. That means that out of DA, MA, FF, we are going to get a Pacific Islands Posse in there. Hell, the current War Machine book ( last time i checked ) was a bunch of black characters with one Chinese chick. Somehow that happened and there isnt an uproar about it being unnatural or anything of the sort.

You pointed out a good example (in bold). The entire cast of War Machine is non-white, with the big bad guy being white, and there was no uproar about. Why? Because:

a) It made sense both storywise and considering the characters background.
b) Because them being black or asian had nothing to do with them being there.
c) The book is not exclusive to characters that are not white. The WCA appeared (for some reason) and I'm sure Stark would be more used if it was possible.

A team featuring exclusively black characters for the sake of having a team featuring exclusively black characters, without having a real possibility for anyone else being featured is ridiculous.

[Sighphi]

Not really. Even if 25% of the hero community was non white, that still wouldn't mean 1 in every 4 teams would be completely non-white... that would only be the case if every minority character decided they wanted to be in a superhero team that didn't have whites. Most I imagine don't care one way or the other.

Again, odds are odds, it the probability of it coming to pass. It's not about the agenda, the want, the need, etc, etc, it's the randomness of the event. And if it's a 1/4 that means that a team call fall like that, just like there is a 3/4 that a team falls all white. It's not because the white guys dont want to team up with other races it just means that's how the cards fell. The X-men actually have a chance of having and all female Asian team, or an all European male team if we simply used the odds.


The simple arguement is that there's a whole lot less minority characters, and even less of them are actively being used. A lot unfortunately are in limbo (though that's getting better).

Of course, that being said there's no gurantee that any combination will or won't create an uproar. It's only my speculation that Bendis creating an all Jewish Avenger team would have people thinking there might be an agenda attached... if he did a good enough job selling the team to the readers, it won't make a difference.

Sometimes readers will buy it, and sometimes they won't. In large part I think it has to do with the writer doing a good enough job telling the story. There are occasions when readers will think a particular combination is forced, and racial issues aren't even a consideration.

This is what i asked before and i still dont get why is it even asked.
How does anything but white mean an agenda?
Just because the probability is lower doesnt mean it cant happen. Unless the actually chances are near zero the should not be a question at all.

Does the Warmachine has some "Agenda"? The Black Panther book had an "Agenda." ?

Somehow all other fields of entertainment have groups that are all X type and it's fine but the comic world can't handle that?

[XPac]

Again, odds are odds, it the probability of it coming to pass. It's not about the agenda, the want, the need, etc, etc, it's the randomness of the event. And if it's a 1/4 that means that a team call fall like that, just like there is a 3/4 that a team falls all white. It's not because the white guys dont want to team up with other races it just means that's how the cards fell.



This is what i asked before and i still dont get why is it even asked.
How does anything but white mean an agenda?
Just because the probability is lower doesnt mean it cant happen. Unless the actually chances are near zero the should not be a question at all.

Does the Warmachine has some "Agenda"? The Black Panther book had an "Agenda." ?

Somehow all other fields of entertainment have groups that are all X type and it's fine but the comic world can't handle that?

Some have argued Hudlin's less than subtle storytelling implies an agenda in Black Panther. They may or may not be right about that.

I honestly don't read War Machine, or the comments on it... if it's not an issue then it's not an issue, and it's all good. Again, having a particular book made up of a single group won't necessarily cause an uproar... if the writer does a good enough job selling it, it won't be an issue one way or the other.

[Kasper Cole]

Well, there are different ways to tackle that.

You can say it doesn't matter, it's just a bunch of stories, and it shouldn't matter one way or the other what color the characters are.

Or you can try to "force" the issue little by little, so it basically slips below the radar and doesn't become an issue.

Or you can just throw it out there, regardless of what anyone else says or things.

I don't think there's a right or a wrong way to handle it, and regardless of which option is chosen I DO genuinely think more minority characters are being used more (even if that progress is far slower than some might think it should be).

See the thing is Marvel is using many more minority characters, and I credit them for pushing diversity (though in the X-books if your a black male mutant not named Bishop odds are you will be killed or depowered at some point). Sometimes I understand SOME writers being hesitant in writing about black characters because the black readership will pounce on those writers the moment they make a mistake in regards to how those characters are portrayed (Heinberg and Kirkman caught a lot of unfair grief for what happened to black characters they created in their books.

It just irks myself and others that nearly everytime a group of black superheroes are shown or talked about people act as if someone is trying to force things and that it erases any and all quality from the project because they're trying to push an agenda.

The claims of things being forced come across as BS to some because it seems that regardless of how it done more often than not that word gets used to describe black characters being used.

[Kasper Cole]

You pointed out a good example (in bold). The entire cast of War Machine is non-white, with the big bad guy being white, and there was no uproar about. Why? Because:

a) It made sense both storywise and considering the characters background.
b) Because them being black or asian had nothing to do with them being there.
c) The book is not exclusive to characters that are not white. The WCA appeared (for some reason) and I'm sure Stark would be more used if it was possible.

A team featuring exclusively black characters for the sake of having a team featuring exclusively black characters, without having a real possibility for anyone else being featured is ridiculous.

Nobody said it should be a book featuring exclusively black characters and there should be no possibility of their being characters of other races...NOBODY suggested that.

the premise of the thread was seeing a team like that for a single mini series....Someone said why should they be a team, I and many others offered reasons why that particular group might team up and they were basically said to be nonsensical reasons that make it seem forced...all that extra stuff is from you...

and now that I think about it isn't there a book out right now that only features super powered pets? :confused:

[Sighphi]

See the thing is Marvel is using many more minority characters, and I credit them for pushing diversity (though in the X-books if your a black male mutant not named Bishop odds are you will be killed or depowered at some point).

That's funny but if we dig deeper there is still things that we kind of find that are strange.
For example, the recent rise in none-whites ending up with artificial limbs..... Blade, Bishop, Silver Samurai, War machine, Yo-Yo looks like she is getting some.
But of course this can all simply be by chance...

[Sighphi]

and now that I think about it isn't there a book out right now that only features super powered pets? :confused:

You're right! Even animals get a go at it!!!
Well..... Lockheed isnt really a pet, right? And Lockjaw is an Inhuman.... and frog Thor is a black dude, i guess that's good.

Anyway, the point is that they are all animal-like characters!

[XPac]

See the thing is Marvel is using many more minority characters, and I credit them for pushing diversity (though in the X-books if your a black male mutant not named Bishop odds are you will be killed or depowered at some point). Sometimes I understand SOME writers being hesitant in writing about black characters because the black readership will pounce on those writers the moment they make a mistake in regards to how those characters are portrayed (Heinberg and Kirkman caught a lot of unfair grief for what happened to black characters they created in their books.

It just irks myself and others that nearly everytime a group of black superheroes are shown or talked about people act as if someone is trying to force things and that it erases any and all quality from the project because they're trying to push an agenda.

The claims of things being forced come across as BS to some because it seems that regardless of how it done more often than not that word gets used to describe black characters being used.

That's interesting... I wasnt' aware that some readers criticised people like Heinberg for what happened to their black characters. I suppose for good or ill, there is a greater potential sensitivity with using black characters... not really sure why. Perhaps because the black community in general is more vocal about such things.

Either way, I'm glad they're being used more regardless.

But as far as the notion of agendas and what not... I think as a general rule of thumb, if the story is good it won't matter. If someone is complaining that this and that are forced, but they're still buying the book then let them complain. But if they're not buying the book, then they probably didn't enjoy it... and the problem is probably deeper than just the perceived agenda.

In big picture terms, I suppose it's a half glass fully, half glass empty kind of thing. It's sucky that people might complain of an all black team if it appears everyone once in a blue moon... but at least it appears once in a blue moon. Hispanics for example probably won't even bother trying to entertain the thought of an all hispanic team ever. I think the only time we'll ever see an all pacific islander team is if someone writer needs to "Alpha" a team.

I'm not trying to make this an us vs them type thing... just pointing out that on the black front, I think strides are being made, and will continue to be made. It's not enough... but it's something.

[XPac]

That's funny but if we dig deeper there is still things that we kind find things that are strange.
For example, the recent rise in none-whites ending up with artificial limbs..... Blade, Bishop, Silver Samurai, War machine, Yo-Yo looks like she is getting some.
But of course this can all simply be by chance...

That is a common comic book thing, for some reason. The number of african american cyborgs in both marvel and Dc is suprisingly high. You can even count Ultimate Nick Fury and Misty Knight to some degree.

I don't know if you can read anything into that, but the number is certainly high enough to make one wonder.

[Blade X]

Here's a question for all of the people who say that creating an all black team would be "forced". What are the things about an all black team that makes it "forced"?

[Blade X]

See this is one of the things that is so vexing about this. You make a good point about there simply being more white superheroes so a all black team would stand out as an anomaly (I still don't buy that it would be forced if all the characters knew each other and had a common goal), but at the same time when people say the number of black superheroes should be increased basically the same argument is made..."it shouldn't be forced", "Only if they're made for a good reason", "There are more white american's than black Americans so it makes sense for their not to be too many black superheroes"...So basically we're stuck, no black superheroes can team up without it being called "forced" because there aren't that many black superheroes, but at the same time creating black superheroes should only be done for a very good reason or that is also "forced"...I mean what the hell?

it's a damn if you do, damn if you don't situation.

I believe the whole "forced" claim, is nothing more the an excuse by many (not all) fans who don't want to see an all black superhero team because they feel that they wouldn't be able to relate to the characters.

[XPac]

Here's a question for all of the people who say that creating an all black team would be "forced". What are the things about an all black team that makes it "forced"?

Just my 2 cents on the matter... I don't think an all black team would necessarily be seen as forced. It would depend on the writing. IF the writer did a good enough job selling the team, then it won't be an issue.

As an example... we can compare Loebs Lady Liberators to Marvel Divas. I think She-Hulk creating a female army of solely superheroines for Frank Cho to draw is kinda forced. I don't think too many people MINDED the fact that he was forcing together an army of hot babes... nonetheless I do think it came off just thrown together.

Marvel Divas on the other hand developed the cast better, and made you buy the fact that these 4 women hang out together and even act as a team, despite the fact that most of them have probably never shared a panel together before.

So if a writer just decides to throw together an army of black characters seemingly for the sake of having an army of black characters like Loeb with the ladies in Hulk, I think people will consider it forced. But if it's developed in a way which comes off logical and natural, it won't be an issue.

[Blade X]

That's funny but if we dig deeper there is still things that we kind find things that are strange.
For example, the recent rise in none-whites ending up with artificial limbs..... Blade, Bishop, Silver Samurai, War machine, Yo-Yo looks like she is getting some.
But of course this can all simply be by chance...

Don't forget about the number of non-white characters who have been killed,turned evil,depowered,or tossed into limbo over the last several years.

I find it both sad and ironic that the people who are calling the idea of an all black superhero team forced due to the low number of black heroes are not calling the maiming,killing,depowering,tossing into limbo,and turning evil of the same low number of black characters (and other non white minority characters) "forced".

[Kasper Cole]

That's interesting... I wasnt' aware that some readers criticised people like Heinberg for what happened to their black characters. I suppose for good or ill, there is a greater potential sensitivity with using black characters... not really sure why. Perhaps because the black community in general is more vocal about such things.

Heinberg caught flack because of Patriot starting out as the angry black kid of the group and then being shown to be shooting up HGH...a lot of people were pissed by what they saw as the one black character in the group being saddled with multiple stereotypes. He also caught flack for the Hulkling/Wiccan relationship.

Robert Kirkman got some flack from black readers for killing off the only black male character (at the time) in Walking Dead. They felt it was unfair that the one black guy in the group was killed off even though Kirkman insists that nobody is safe in that book.

Either way, I'm glad they're being used more regardless.

But as far as the notion of agendas and what not... I think as a general rule of thumb, if the story is good it won't matter. If someone is complaining that this and that are forced, but they're still buying the book then let them complain. But if they're not buying the book, then they probably didn't enjoy it... and the problem is probably deeper than just the perceived agenda.

Thing is thought it's been shown that people complain about some of these things before they even happen. There was TONS of complaints about "Truth" and "The Crew" before they even came out. Priest, Hudlin, and McDuffie have all caught grief for having what some deem too many black characters in a single book at any given time (and in McDuffie's case it REALLY unfair considering he had no say in the team line up at the time which he said numerous times, but some people basically said he was lying). All of those books are stories were written different by different writers with differing levels of acclaim and people still bitched about things being forced, characters being too powerful, and the writers having agendas.

In big picture terms, I suppose it's a half glass fully, half glass empty kind of thing. It's sucky that people might complain of an all black team if it appears everyone once in a blue moon... but at least it appears once in a blue moon. Hispanics for example probably won't even bother trying to entertain the thought of an all hispanic team ever. I think the only time we'll ever see an all pacific islander team is if someone writer needs to "Alpha" a team.

I'm not trying to make this an us vs them type thing... just pointing out that on the black front, I think strides are being made, and will continue to be made. It's not enough... but it's something.

as I said before I credit Marvel for what they've been doing and acknowledge that things HAVE gotten much better...my only real complaint is the resistance some fans show when marvel is trying to make the universe more diverse or make a black character more high profile.

[XPac]

Don't forget about the number of non-white characters who have been killed,turned evil,depowered,or tossed into limbo over the last several years.

I find it both sad and ironic that the people who are calling the idea of an all black superhero team forced due to the low number of black heroes are not calling the maiming,killing,depowering,tossing into limbo,and turning evil of the same low number of black characters (and other non white minority characters) "forced".

On that front, I think it was a tough year for heroes in general... not JUST blacks.

We had Blue Beetle, Flash, Wasp, Captain America and even Batman all die too. With all the Wars and Crisis happening in both marvel and dc the body in general just went up.

[Kasper Cole]

On that front, I think it was a tough year for heroes in general... not JUST blacks.

We had Blue Beetle, Flash, Wasp, Captain America and even Batman all die too. With all the Wars and Crisis happening in both marvel and dc the body in general just went up.

I'll agree with you on that, but in the X-Books it really has become ridiculous...as it stands Nezhno is the only black male X-Man, everyone else was killed, depowered, or turned into a villain.

[Umbra]

On that front, I think it was a tough year for heroes in general... not JUST blacks.

We had Blue Beetle, Flash, Wasp, Captain America and even Batman all die too. With all the Wars and Crisis happening in both marvel and dc the body in general just went up.

Indifference at it's best. Captain America isn't dead...Batman isn't really dead. come on man you are smarter than this.

It's not even comparable... we just got finished talking about how there are so many *More* white heroes... and you list 3 that likely are not even dead or will be brought back to life (Cap, Batman and Flash).

Mean while...we still don't have a AA male X-men (well i guess Cloak is)...and heroes like X-man (a favorite) and CA SR are being brought back to life... BG and Synch among others are dead. Others are depowered...

[XPac]

I'll agree with you on that, but in the X-Books it really has become ridiculous...as it stands Nezhno is the only black male X-Man, everyone else was killed, depowered, or turned into a villain.

If you don't count Cloak (and I don't blame you one bit if you don't), then I definately see your point. Not a lot of african american males in the X books. They do have Storm, which helps the curve a bit... but there's definately room for improvement there.

A LOT of mutants both (both caucasian and otherwise) were depowered... but because there were less characters of color to begin with, it probably does hurt their percentage a lot more.

[XPac]

Indifference at it's best. Captain America isn't dead...Batman isn't really dead. come on man you are smarter than this.

It's not even comparable... we just got finished talking about how there are so many *More* white heroes... and you list 3 that likely are not even dead or will be brought back to life (Cap, Batman and Flash).

Mean while...we still don't have a AA male X-men (well i guess Cloak is)...and heroes like X-man (a favorite) and CA SR are being brought back to life... BG and Synch among others are dead. Others are depowered...

Funny thing is, on the DC side of things I actually think minorities might have come out ahead with all the deaths. Spectre got replaced by a black character, Question got replaced by a female hispanic, Blue Beetle got replaced by a hispanic kid, and the new Firestorm ended up black too.

On the marvel end, at least we got Bill Fosters nephew or whatever. We sort of break even there.

I do agree that the X books could use a bit more color though. I suppose it's something they don't think about as much since all the X-Men are minorities anyways.

[Kasper Cole]

If you don't count Cloak (and I don't blame you one bit if you don't), then I definately see your point. Not a lot of african american males in the X books. They do have Storm, which helps the curve a bit... but there's definately room for improvement there.

A LOT of mutants both (both caucasian and otherwise) were depowered... but because there were less characters of color to begin with, it probably does hurt their percentage a lot more.

Let me put it this way out of the 4 black males in New X-Men/Mutants only 1 still has his powers and he was created post M-Day. And that's not counting the 2 who were depowered from morrisons run and the guy from the Excalibur.

[Omega Alpha]

Here's a question for all of the people who say that creating an all black team would be "forced". What are the things about an all black team that makes it "forced"?

The idea itself to form an all black team for the sake of forming an all black team, for once. Not that any team that would have an all black cast would be unbelievable: for example, Black Panther forming a Wakandan team that it's formed entirely of black people is believable; him forming an international team and thinking of calling people like War Machine or Blue Marvel instead of the likes of Cap. America, Thor, or the dozens of white characters he has worked before in the past? Nah.


And, for any team, in any comic, if you're coming up with the characters you want in a team first and only later giving some thought as to why they would be together, why these people would work with each others instead of working with other people (or work solo, in many cases), chances are VERY high that it won't be any good, and their reasons to be together won't be convincing. What you're saying isn't very different if I go and type the name of a few heroes randomly:

Punisher
Black Widow
Cyclops
Quake
Doc Samson
Luke Cage
Storm
Hercules

It's as random than your team, where the only thing they have in common is being black. Heck, now that I think about it, all have reasons to hate and go against Osborn, so they actually have MORE in common than yours.

[Omega Alpha]

Let me put it this way out of the 4 black males in New X-Men/Mutants only 1 still has his powers and he was created post M-Day. And that's not counting the 2 who were depowered from morrisons run and the guy from the Excalibur.

This is easy to explain: teams and characters created post-Silver Age and specially more recently tend to have more diversity in gender, ethnicity, nationality, etc an (ANAD X-men and Runaways, for example). But, by being newer, they tend to be less popular, and because of that, expendable. And Decimation depowered mostly the Z-listers, since X-office clearly didn't wanted anything to do with that, being forced by Joe Q (that's why they repowered quickly every single relevant character).

[Kasper Cole]

Here's a question for all of the people who say that creating an all black team would be "forced". What are the things about an all black team that makes it "forced"?

The idea itself to form an all black team for the sake of forming an all black team, for once. Not that any team that would have an all black cast would be unbelievable: for example, Black Panther forming a Wakandan team that it's formed entirely of black people is believable; him forming an international team and thinking of calling people like War Machine or Blue Marvel instead of the likes of Cap. America, Thor, or the dozens of white characters he has worked before in the past? Nah.


And, for any team, in any comic, if you're coming up with the characters you want in a team first and only later giving some thought as to why they would be together, why these people would work with each others instead of working with other people (or work solo, in many cases), chances are VERY high that it won't be any good, and their reasons to be together won't be convincing. What you're saying isn't very different if I go and type the name of a few heroes randomly:

Punisher
Black Widow
Cyclops
Quake
Doc Samson
Luke Cage
Storm
Hercules

It's as random than your team, where the only thing they have in common is being black. Heck, now that I think about it, all have reasons to hate and go against Osborn, so they actually have MORE in common than yours.

I don't agree with that at all...I think more often than not certain teams ARE formed because a writer or fans simply want to see them team up and they come up with reasons as to why they would later....Hell look at books like "The Brave and the bold", "Marvel Team up", "Power man and Iron fist".....Sometimes it's pretty clear that teams are put together strictly for the sake of putting them together and then the reason as to why they are working together comes later. I can't say for sure but Nextwave seems like it might have been put together that way.

[Kasper Cole]

This is easy to explain: teams and characters created post-Silver Age and specially more recently tend to have more diversity in gender, ethnicity, nationality, etc an (ANAD X-men and Runaways, for example). But, by being newer, they tend to be less popular, and because of that, expendable. And Decimation depowered mostly the Z-listers, since X-office clearly didn't wanted anything to do with that, being forced by Joe Q (that's why they repowered quickly every single relevant character).

Actually that doesn't explain it at all...there were far less popular characters who were more obscure who kept their powers and weren't killed off post M-Day.And long before M-day black male mutant characters were being introduced and killed off. As it has been shown the only black male mutants on earth seem to be Bishop, Nezhno, and Darwin. :confused:

[XPac]

Actually that doesn't explain it at all...there were far less popular characters who were more obscure who kept their powers and weren't killed off post M-Day.And long before M-day black male mutant characters were being introduced and killed off. As it has been shown the only black male mutants on earth seem to be Bishop, Nezhno, and Darwin. :confused:

Cloaks a mutant too...

[spiderwire]

Marvel U, without question, is a dangerous place to live. The random killing of minorities have always bewildered me but the one that has always stood out to me was the death of Thunderbird three issues after his debut. Never got a real reason why he was killed off. We've heard everything from not room for two Wolverine types to a tribute to Bucky. I can accept death, sometimes ressurections, but I hate the token replacements. A source at my lcs has hinted that Marvel is bringing in the teenaged Bishop to help kill his future self. How bad is that for a new low?

[Kasper Cole]

Cloaks a mutant too...

Depending on who you ask. Cloak doesn't even consider himself a mutant...I really wish they would give a MUCH more solid answer as to if they are or aren't mutants, because it's just annoying and confusing.

[son of jorel]

The reason Superman can be used is quite frankly because he's usually written badly. That's how most Supermen clones get around the "overpowered" problem.

And there are times it's a problem for Thor as well. It's was ridiculous that the human zodiac were ever even a blip on the radar for a guy like Thor, who battled them many times with the Avengers.

It's often a problem for ANY character at that level. And the sollution to that problem has always been to write the characters BADLY to compensate. A character like Superman or Silver Surfer could solve 90% of their fights in a fraction of a second if they were written correctly. That's why they often work better in space, to be quite honest.

Not so much 'badly written' ( there is definately that, but so are many other heroes)..more 'underpowered'. if people worried about finding valid threats for the thors and supermen of this world...whats the point in even having these characters then, why not just keep all heroes 'street' level?

the likes of supes and marv are not invincible heroes. there are villains, stronger than them, villains who know their weaknesses and can get under their skin or villlains cleverer than them. valid threats can be found. thats what writers are paid big bucks for, to do their jobs. its not hard.

Heroes like superman need to exists amongst the earth populace, cos the whole point of superman is to say how this 'alien' character is as 'human' as the rest of us.

[son of jorel]

Here's a question for all of the people who say that creating an all black team would be "forced". What are the things about an all black team that makes it "forced"?

The idea itself to form an all black team for the sake of forming an all black team, for once. Not that any team that would have an all black cast would be unbelievable: for example, Black Panther forming a Wakandan team that it's formed entirely of black people is believable; him forming an international team and thinking of calling people like War Machine or Blue Marvel instead of the likes of Cap. America, Thor, or the dozens of white characters he has worked before in the past? Nah.


And, for any team, in any comic, if you're coming up with the characters you want in a team first and only later giving some thought as to why they would be together, why these people would work with each others instead of working with other people (or work solo, in many cases), chances are VERY high that it won't be any good, and their reasons to be together won't be convincing. What you're saying isn't very different if I go and type the name of a few heroes randomly:

Punisher
Black Widow
Cyclops
Quake
Doc Samson
Luke Cage
Storm
Hercules

It's as random than your team, where the only thing they have in common is being black. Heck, now that I think about it, all have reasons to hate and go against Osborn, so they actually have MORE in common than yours.

no your team is just as random as any avengers team. remembet also the 'champions'? a team about as random as yours...that ran for years. iceman, ghost rider, hercules, black widow, angel?

you are looking too 'deep' into this. any number of reasons could be found for such a one off team like mine. i came up with 2 already so have others. okay here's another:


all these heroes have genetic ties to africa ( something your random team hasnt got). they could even be genetically linked by ancestry, some mystical bond from generations back , something their forefathers were mixed up in .a connection which could be the key to a recently emerging ancient african evil which affects only these characters ( being descendants) meaning they have to go to africa or gather and confront the threat. this mystical threat could be discovered by brother voodoo who gathers these heroes. this connection would also justify any future team ups as to why the principle characters are all in this particular group with a particular skin colour, so personalities and powers and accusations as to ( why would this guy be with this guy?) would be irrelevant as far as this team is concerned. its an ancient mystical african bond thousands of years old,so it would not matter where in life these heroes are now...but actually where they came from. these guys and gals may get along fine, dislike each other, not trust each other, may be totally different personality wise, have different outlooks on life, but HAVE to work together.

and YES primarily because they are BLACK which would be key to the story, but not offensive or racist as in why white heroes would be excluded.

no-one questions how norse gods just team up with multi-billionaire playboys and wwII veterans, and carnival archers... yet an all black team must be subject to intense scrutiny as to why they are together.At the moment ya got a greek god on a team with a brainy asian kid and a female robot....not one peep from readers. look at this load of old 'mish-mash'. whats the connection? everyone just accepts it though:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5VgL6ZXwkaw/SX_KJYWHMKI/AAAAAAAAMZc/Cj1eHmm1KjQ/s320/Mighty+Avengers+21-11.jpg

at least my team has a common denominator. yes their skin colour. some people seem to think this is somehow a sleazy or dirty idea or just a BAD idea that would offend some peoples sensibilities.

omega alpha, lets deal now with what you said, that if there was ever a big threat to panther he would have to firstly run to the big gun 'whiteboys' ( no offense to people) for help. for a start bp is just as capable as cap, who is now seen as prone to huge errors of judgement. also, from what we have seen. he is also prone to just 'take over'. if black panther is the architect of this team, he may not want the clash of leadership and may want to run things HIS way. steve rogers now is not the infallible always right hero of days gone by where people blindly just accepted anything he says without question. The blue marvel does not need to depend on a weapon which would revert the guy to mortal if out of his hand for 60 seconds either. blue marvel is a reed richards level genius too...not some brawny caveman. thing is, black panther ( if the chief recruiter in any adventure) is not just gonna run to the 'baddest' guy he can find. he is a strategist, and would weigh up the pros and cons of who to recruit. if the job needed brawn and technical brains and he had a toss up between thor and blue marvel.....well.

bp never fully trusted his avengers teammates anyway and it was later revealed that he only joined the avengers to spy on them exactly like batman did as to why he joined the jla...and he still never trusted them years after ( tower of babel). stark is a great example aslo. all those years with thor and cap, and it turned out he still couldnt be trusted, so it follows that bp isnt just gonna blindly pick the caps, starks and thors of this world. he actually THINKS things through.

[Omega Alpha]

The reasons you posted are extremely contrived. Not to mention it implies Africans are pretty much all the same, not coming from thousands of different ethnicities, and dozens of different nations.

And again, if you come up with "I want these characters to be part of a team, period" with any characters and only later begin to think of an excuse for them all to be together, chances are they shouldn't be a team at all.

Actually that doesn't explain it at all...there were far less popular characters who were more obscure who kept their powers and weren't killed off post M-Day.QUOTE]

Sure, but many there were. Heck, in New X-men, over 50 students were killed. To imply black males were targeted more than others show that you haven't read the books, at best, or a tendency to ignore stuff to force a contrived point at worst.

[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;9495419][QUOTE=Omega Alpha;9495394]

I don't agree with that at all...I think more often than not certain teams ARE formed because a writer or fans simply want to see them team up and they come up with reasons as to why they would later....Hell look at books like "The Brave and the bold", "Marvel Team up", "Power man and Iron fist".....Sometimes it's pretty clear that teams are put together strictly for the sake of putting them together and then the reason as to why they are working together comes later. I can't say for sure but Nextwave seems like it might have been put together that way.

And it often leads to bad stories, or bad characterization. Like Wolverine being in NA, for example: over 50 issues, and they still haven't gave a good reason for him to be there.

But I was talking about putting characters that have no relation to work together instead of working with characters they have decades of storywith. It's belieavble and easy to explain why T'challa would want Cap or Thor on his team, not that he would care to bring people like War Machine or Blue Marvel just because they have the same skin color.

[Umbra]

Marvel U, without question, is a dangerous place to live. The random killing of minorities have always bewildered me but the one that has always stood out to me was the death of Thunderbird three issues after his debut. Never got a real reason why he was killed off. We've heard everything from not room for two Wolverine types to a tribute to Bucky. I can accept death, sometimes ressurections, but I hate the token replacements. A source at my lcs has hinted that Marvel is bringing in the teenaged Bishop to help kill his future self. How bad is that for a new low?

Wow...they should really let Yost and Kyle take over the X-line...because on Nicktoons...you can see the REAL BISHOP on Wolverine and the X-men and the real Prof X.:mad:

All they had to do is write him like that....

[XPac]

Not so much 'badly written' ( there is definately that, but so are many other heroes)..more 'underpowered'. if people worried about finding valid threats for the thors and supermen of this world...whats the point in even having these characters then, why not just keep all heroes 'street' level?

the likes of supes and marv are not invincible heroes. there are villains, stronger than them, villains who know their weaknesses and can get under their skin or villlains cleverer than them. valid threats can be found. thats what writers are paid big bucks for, to do their jobs. its not hard.

Heroes like superman need to exists amongst the earth populace, cos the whole point of superman is to say how this 'alien' character is as 'human' as the rest of us.

The problem specifically here isn't that there aren't villains stronger, but rather balancing the threat in a team setting where you've got a Superman clone and a much much weaker hero.

If the Defenders are battling someone powerful enough to give Silver Surfer (who I know isn't a Superman clone, he's technicallhy much worse) trouble, then what realistically can Nighthawk and Hellcat do? Conversely, if they're fighting a foe that Nighthawk and Hellcat can fight, then shouldn't Silver Surfer be able to wrap this up in 2 seconds flat? That's the balancing act that you need to perform when you've got a team setting where there's that level of imbalance.

And that problem is magified with Supermen clones because they have superspeed... that means they can not only deal with the threat, but they can in theory deal with it in a fraction of a second. That's where you have to ask the question why a Superman or a Blue Marvel or a Sentry even needs a team.

With a character who doesn't have superspeed at LEAST you can say the other weaker character helps out and saves a bit of time. But for a class 100 speedster, the rest are actually slowing him down.

That's why in my view Supermen clones shouldn't be used in earthbound team settings too often. If you can lift trillions of tons AND have superspeed, you often make make the rest of your team redundent unless you're written badly. They're great as the occasional big gun when one is needed in a desperate hour... but a lot of times, they're powerful to the point where the rest are kind of redundent if they're used properly.

[XPac]

Depending on who you ask. Cloak doesn't even consider himself a mutant...I really wish they would give a MUCH more solid answer as to if they are or aren't mutants, because it's just annoying and confusing.

He's on the X-Men, albeint the Dark Version. I think that's him publically outing himself as a mutant.

[akumasan]

sighes here we again. I wont even bother going through the thread carry on

[son of jorel]

The reasons you posted are extremely contrived. Not to mention it implies Africans are pretty much all the same, not coming from thousands of different ethnicities, and dozens of different nations.

And again, if you come up with "I want these characters to be part of a team, period" with any characters and only later begin to think of an excuse for them all to be together, chances are they shouldn't be a team at all.
.

there are not too many excuses to get heroes together to form a group which are not contrived. look, the mighty avengers were formed the same as the original avengers, by loki. real original.

so a group of black heroes come together for a 'one off ' maybe more and yet i am supposed to come up with some super original idea never thought of before just to justify their union. meanwhile teams like mighty avengers can use any old tired rubbish.

and no i am not saying africans are all the same. i stated what, 8(?) heroes with a common link. wow.

hardly millions upon millions of africans or 'generalisation' is it?

[XPac]

at least my team has a common denominator. yes their skin colour. some people seem to think this is somehow a sleazy or dirty idea or just a BAD idea that would offend some peoples sensibilities.



It can be, anytime you decide to make skin color the issue.

I think most people in general don't mind the fact that the Mighty Avengers are all white, because people are assuming that skin color has nothing to do with it (though that ignores Cho technically... but I'm not sure he counts).

But if Slott were to ever publically state that he picked this team because they're all white and he's only interested in writing a story about white characters, then I do think some would be bothered by that. And rightly so, in my view.

[son of jorel]

The problem specifically here isn't that there aren't villains stronger, but rather balancing the threat in a team setting where you've got a Superman clone and a much much weaker hero.

If the Defenders are battling someone powerful enough to give Silver Surfer (who I know isn't a Superman clone, he's technicallhy much worse) trouble, then what realistically can Nighthawk and Hellcat do? Conversely, if they're fighting a foe that Nighthawk and Hellcat can fight, then shouldn't Silver Surfer be able to wrap this up in 2 seconds flat? That's the balancing act that you need to perform when you've got a team setting where there's that level of imbalance.

And that problem is magified with Supermen clones because they have superspeed... that means they can not only deal with the threat, but they can in theory deal with it in a fraction of a second. That's where you have to ask the question why a Superman or a Blue Marvel or a Sentry even needs a team.

With a character who doesn't have superspeed at LEAST you can say the other weaker character helps out and saves a bit of time. But for a class 100 speedster, the rest are actually slowing him down.

That's why in my view Supermen clones shouldn't be used in earthbound team settings too often. If you can lift trillions of tons AND have superspeed, you often make make the rest of your team redundent unless you're written badly. They're great as the occasional big gun when one is needed in a desperate hour... but a lot of times, they're powerful to the point where the rest are kind of redundent if they're used properly.

given time who is more dangerous? the thing or a deranged reed richards? who is easier to defeat? you say that if someting is big enough to cause surfer trouble, what can hellcat or nighthawk do. who knows. i do know that if someone has magical powers or kryptonite and has supes on the rope, batman could save his life. shadowcat phased thor through a concrete sidewalk incapacitating him for a time. hows he ( for all his power) fight something he cant touch?

if a crazed thanos was coming to smash earth up, whats better? sending blue marvel against him who could lose ( and then where would earth be?) or a team with blue marvel reed richards cap, stark and others all bringing something to the table. cap could set up a battle strategy, blue marvel could initially engage, reed richards could come up with a weapon or form of containment. stark could help on all 3 fronts. teamwork. the other way 'round'., and some minor threat? well wouldnt that be for heroes like spidey? minor threats like muggings are not for teams like avengers. they are more earths line of defence. big stuff.

what comicbook teams are about is that its not just brute force and power that can save the day. you need guile, intelligence, stealth and cunning too. look at onslaught. without jean greys help hulk couldnt have even cracked his armour. its called 'teamwork'. silver surfer with the help of the ff repelled galactus for all his power he couldnt do it alone. batman beat 4 white martians who captured the jla by cunning. teamwork.

of course the likes of superman and blue marvel can just 'speedblitz' villains, but thats not comics is it? in the real world yes. in comicbooks there are rules to adhere to. lol, magneto could have killed the original x-men on their first outing if characters were written as you say. what could cyclops, beast, angel and marvel girl and iceman 'realistically' do against magneto? just think of all those adventures x-fanboys/girls and film franchises whom would never have existed. galactus would have eaten earth 10 times over. thanos would have obliterated the universe if written correctly. is this what you want? 'realistic' use of powers? the marvel u wouldnt last too long would it?

as to why people like blue marvel and sentry need to be on teams, well they need that interaction. if not you have a godlike superhero who is just boring and outside the adventures of everyone else who people cannot relate to. if thor wwas never part of the avengers, he would have faded away years ago. if sentry was on his own, the character wouldnt even leave his house. what would be his purpose. superman would just be some godlike figure other heroes couldnt know to trust if he wasnt in the jla.

yes the likes of blue marvel and thor are hugely powered, but in the scheme of things, there are many other threats out there that make these two look like lightweights.

[son of jorel]

It can be, anytime you decide to make skin color the issue.

I think most people in general don't mind the fact that the Mighty Avengers are all white, because people are assuming that skin color has nothing to do with it (though that ignores Cho technically... but I'm not sure he counts).

But if Slott were to ever publically state that he picked this team because they're all white and he's only interested in writing a story about white characters, then I do think some would be bothered by that. And rightly so, in my view.

a writer does not have to come up with a reason for an all white team. we already have one. so many white heroes that its not unusual. fine. no excuses needed for it. an excuse is needed for an all black team, cos the mag would be filled of heroes not cap or thor and that would bother some people. like i said what would be the harm in ONE all black adventure? is it that RADICAL?

would too much black people on a cover make people nervous?

like i came up with, a common link. not something to say 'we are black and better than the white teams' but more ' we are black and share a common bond'. link

do we need excuses for black entertainment tellevision? black history month? black marches? a 'one off' superhero romp though is cause for serious scutiny and maybe censorship because well thats just a step too far!

[Umbra]

It can be, anytime you decide to make skin color the issue.

I think most people in general don't mind the fact that the Mighty Avengers are all white, because people are assuming that skin color has nothing to do with it (though that ignores Cho technically... but I'm not sure he counts).

But if Slott were to ever publically state that he picked this team because they're all white and he's only interested in writing a story about white characters, then I do think some would be bothered by that. And rightly so, in my view.

Right. I love Slott's book, but again that is B.S...even if a writer came out and said that skin color was not a issue, would you guys believe him...NO. You would have a thread with people flaming each other...calling it forced.

My ‘black team’…they just happened to be black. But that is not the focus unless you want to be insecure and focus on it.

These teams are not ‘black’ only…but like other teams the core members happened to be minority and based in Wakanda.

Supreme Avengers: Unlimited (Marvel's JLA analogue team)

Black Panther (King of Wakanda co-leader of team) - Batman

Storm (Queen and field leader of team) - Wonder Woman

Doctor Voodoo (former advisor to T’challa and current flame of Monica Rambeau) - Manhunter

Monica Rambeau (former Avenger and agent of Wakanda, and current flame of Dr. V) - Green Lanter

Blue Marvel ( recruited as a answer to Sentry and other comic powered beings) -Superman

Namor (joins as part of the new treaty between his people and T’challa’s) - Aquaman

North star (Join team at the request of Storm, also teacher at Storm Wakandan X-academy) - Flash


Storm’s X-academy
Bishop (Teacher)
Synch (revived) (Field Leader)
M
Nezhno
Darwin
Prodigy
Shola Inkosi
Cecilia Reyes (T)
Frenzy
Cloak and Dagger
Iceman (Field Leader)
X-man
Threnody


T’challa’s black Op’s team
Bishop
Kasper Cole
Josiah X
Junta
White Wolf
Okoye (former Dm)
Frenzy


Forced huh...

[XPac]

a writer does not have to come up with a reason for an all white team. we already have one. so many white heroes that its not unusual. fine. no excuses needed for it. an excuse is needed for an all black team, cos the mag would be filled of heroes not cap or thor and that would bother some people. like i said what would be the harm in ONE all black adventure? is it that RADICAL?

There's no actual harm.

All people are saying is that it will look forced to some readers, if the writer doesn't come up with a descent reason for an all black team to work together.

That probably won't hurt sales (though some have argued it hurt JLA sales... not sure I believe that). It's a minor distraction to some, though if the story is good enough that won't be relavent. If the story itself isn't good enough, the race issue unfortunately will derail the book and be more the focus than the actual story.

It's all about execution.

[akumasan]

There's no actual harm.

All people are saying is that it will look forced to some readers, if the writer doesn't come up with a descent reason for an all black team to work together.

That probably won't hurt sales (though some have argued it hurt JLA sales... not sure I believe that). It's a minor distraction to some, though if the story is good enough that won't be relavent. If the story itself isn't good enough, the race issue unfortunately will derail the book and be more the focus than the actual story.

It's all about execution.

the sad part was Priest did in "The Crew" and it still didnt work

[RJ Whakamol]

Everybody seems to think Blue Marvel is going to join a team. He just strikes me as somebody who really doesn't give a shit. It would probably take the literal end of existence to bring him out of retirement. Maybe.

[XPac]

Right. I love Slott's book, but again that is B.S...even if a writer came out and said that skin color was not a issue, would you guys believe him...NO. You would have a thread with people flaming each other...calling it forced.

My ‘black team’…they just happened to be black. But that is not the focus unless you want to be insecure and focus on it.

These teams are not ‘black’ only…but like other teams the core members happened to be minority and based in Wakanda.

Supreme Avengers: Unlimited (Marvel's JLA analogue team)

Black Panther (King of Wakanda co-leader of team) - Batman

Storm (Queen and field leader of team) - Wonder Woman

Doctor Voodoo (former advisor to T’challa and current flame of Monica Rambeau) - Manhunter

Monica Rambeau (former Avenger and agent of Wakanda, and current flame of Dr. V) - Green Lanter

Blue Marvel ( recruited as a answer to Sentry and other comic powered beings) -Superman

Namor (joins as part of the new treaty between his people and T’challa’s) - Aquaman

North star (Join team at the request of Storm, also teacher at Storm Wakandan X-academy) - Flash


Storm’s X-academy
Bishop (Teacher)
Synch (revived) (Field Leader)
M
Nezhno
Darwin
Prodigy
Shola Inkosi
Cecilia Reyes (T)
Frenzy
Cloak and Dagger
Iceman (Field Leader)
X-man
Threnody


T’challa’s black Op’s team
Bishop
Kasper Cole
Josiah X
Junta
White Wolf
Okoye (former Dm)
Frenzy


Forced huh...

It's not forced if there's a common denominator beyond skin color.

My statement was responding to a specific statement about skin color being a demoninator in choosing the team. That's the opposite of selecting a team that just happens to be black.

[XPac]

Everybody seems to think Blue Marvel is going to join a team. He just strikes me as somebody who really doesn't give a shit. It would probably take the literal end of existence to bring him out of retirement. Maybe.

Yeah... you really have to wonder what exactly it would take to get Blue Marvel off the bench, aside from Anti-Man.

He sat on the sidelines for Secret Invasion (and a dozen other major events through the years).

[XPac]

the sad part was Priest did in "The Crew" and it still didnt work

The simple truth is most books fail. That's a truth that transcends the skin color of the characters and the writer.

If you haven't been published over the last few decades, odds aren't good you won't be published a few decades from now.

[Umbra]

It's not forced if there's a common denominator beyond skin color.

My statement was responding to a specific statement about skin color being a demoninator in choosing the team. That's the opposite of selecting a team that just happens to be black.

Most of those people are in Limbo...besides the main team.

[Umbra]

This is the fact. It is not forced that black people can interact period.
I remember in one Gen X comic Synch was a HUGE fan of Black Panther. Most Black males WOULD BE... that is realistic...and the same for Storm.

So with those two, it would be pretty easy for form a 'black team' for any reason and it be accepted...just like any team is formed. I can just say that these are the people who accepted...

[son of jorel]

i think some people wouldnt like such a team as the line up seems a little too 'capable' and formidable...and hey might even be too popular.

blue marvel particularly with his background in superheroics ( i.e black superheroes encountering racism) might even take pride in such a group enough to stick around, more so than just joining an avengers team

[son of jorel]

This is the fact. It is not forced that black people can interact period.
I remember in one Gen X comic Synch was a HUGE fan of Black Panther. Most Black males WOULD BE... that is realistic...and the same for Storm.

So with those two, it would be pretty easy for form a 'black team' for any reason and it be accepted...just like any team is formed. I can just say that these are the people who accepted...

so very true. to some people its alright for a mighth avengers line-up but 8 black superheroes together for an adventure??

whoa what a radical concept!

[Umbra]

i think some people wouldnt like such a team as the line up seems a little too 'capable' and formidable...and hey might even be too popular.

blue marvel particularly with his background in superheroics ( i.e black superheroes encountering racism) might even take pride in such a group enough to stick around, more so than just joining an avengers team

That's really said... I loved the crew...but it was ran into the ground by fanboi's who never even read the book...giving it bad press when it was a awesome book.

[Deus ex Chris]

I don't like the idea of this kind of team anymore than I do a team consisting of Northstar, Rictor, Wiccan, Hulking, Lucy in the Sky, and Mystique.

"Hey, we're all attracted to members of the same sex! Let's team-up! Woo!"

No, let's strive for diversity in the casts of our books. That doesn't mean we shouldn't see black characters interact more often because we absolutely should. I just don't see the need for a world class superhero team made up of an entirely black cast--or an entirely white cast for that matter.

[Umbra]

I don't like the idea of this kind of team anymore than I do a team consisting of Northstar, Rictor, Wiccan, Hulking, Lucy in the Sky, and Mystique.

"Hey, we're all attracted to members of the same sex! Let's team-up! Woo!"

No, let's strive for diversity in the casts of our books. That doesn't mean we shouldn't see black characters interact more often because we absolutely should. I just don't see the need for a world class superhero team made up of an entirely black cast--or an entirely white cast for that matter.

Agreed, but that is rearly the case. Just look at most team books...Only Luke Cage is a member, and now Cloak, the New Warriors were cancled and they have the most black people on a team. Ironic.

[son of jorel]

I don't like the idea of this kind of team anymore than I do a team consisting of Northstar, Rictor, Wiccan, Hulking, Lucy in the Sky, and Mystique.

"Hey, we're all attracted to members of the same sex! Let's team-up! Woo!"

No, let's strive for diversity in the casts of our books. That doesn't mean we shouldn't see black characters interact more often because we absolutely should. I just don't see the need for a world class superhero team made up of an entirely black cast--or an entirely white cast for that matter.

a one off adventure of black heroes ISNT celebrating marvels diversity? anyway, please dont equate sexual orientation or a lifestyle choice to a whole race of people especially ones who were locked in chains and treated as subhumans not too long ago. bit of a difference, and gays should stop equating themselves with the black condition (whic they do far too often) and forge their own.

i do wish people would stop saying 'all white casts'. a writer can have this no problem and its not questioned. the writer could be an all out nazi loving racist, but he can hide that cos but his team selection of all whites will just be accepted. all white comics and programmes are allowed without questions as 'thats just the way it is'. all white programmes like 'friends'? great. get a bunch of black superheroes together and boy there and BETTER be some good reason goddammit!

??

[Umbra]

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/927966-synchpanther2_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/927988-synchpanther3_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/927990-synchpanther4_super.jpg

I guess this is forced, meaning Synch being a huge fan of T'challa. So do you think if he and other like him had a chance to join him and Storm they wouldn't. is that forced?

[Deus ex Chris]

a one off adventure of black heroes ISNT celebrating marvels diversity? anyway, please dont equate sexual orientation or a lifestyle choice to a whole race of people especially ones who were locked in chains and treated as subhumans not too long ago. bit of a difference, and gays should stop equating themselves with the black condition (whic they do far too often) and forge their own.
No, I don't think I will, considering how the two struggles are essentially the same thing.

And for the record, gays have been treated as "subhuman" for centuries, so save the homophobic "gays are stealing from the blacks" bullshit. Nobody owns persecution.

[XPac]

a one off adventure of black heroes ISNT celebrating marvels diversity? anyway, please dont equate sexual orientation or a lifestyle choice to a whole race of people especially ones who were locked in chains and treated as subhumans not too long ago. bit of a difference, and gays should stop equating themselves with the black condition (whic they do far too often) and forge their own.

i do wish people would stop saying 'all white casts'. a writer can have this no problem and its not questioned. the writer could be an all out nazi loving racist, but he can hide that cos but his team selection of all whites will just be accepted. all white comics and programmes are allowed without questions as 'thats just the way it is'. all white programmes like 'friends'? great. get a bunch of black superheroes together and boy there and BETTER be some good reason goddammit!

??

I think it's a good idea to have some reason why, yeah.

I think a lot of people want to see more diversity in books. But it's harder to argue that they shouldn't have all white teams, then turn around and create an all black team intentionally excluding white characters.

There's potentially a mixed message there. If you at least come up with some context as to WHY this group doesn't have any white guys around, you won't send marvel that mixed message. Or at least hopefully you won't.

[son of jorel]

I think it's a good idea to have some reason why, yeah.

I think a lot of people want to see more diversity in books. But it's harder to argue that they shouldn't have all white teams, then turn around and create an all black team intentionally excluding white characters.

There's potentially a mixed message there. If you at least come up with some context as to WHY this group doesn't have any white guys around, you won't send marvel that mixed message. Or at least hopefully you won't.

this book would in no way be 'excluding' white members any more than the bet music awards. look around. white musicians there.

my hero scenario painted a viable reason for these guys to be together. i am not saying 'keep all white people out of the book', cos clearly you would have to have some white supporting players or people in the background. very different to any ideas of exclusivity or racism.

whats would be the problem to some people? the fact there isnt a great white hope leading the team? most of these readers wouldnt even pick up the book in the first place.

[Blackhawkk]

Back in the 1970s you could have gotten away with this and it would have been fun and it would have sold like hotcakes and it would have been probably called "The Black Avengers".

In today's age of political correctness there's no way this would fly because of course, someone would be offended.

[son of jorel]

No, I don't think I will, considering how the two struggles are essentially the same thing.

And for the record, gays have been treated as "subhuman" for centuries, so save the homophobic "gays are stealing from the blacks" bullshit. Nobody owns persecution.

there are levels of persecution.

um most white gays back in the day could walk down streets without being lynched. yeah they may have had to hide the fact, but better than being chained and fed scraps eh? . so gays have been persecuted? yes they have but not really comparable to hundreds of years of slavery and conditioning. what have gays been subjected in the past on the level of slavery? look at the after effects even. black people still walking around with their slavemasters surnames


jog on mate. you are not hi-jacking this thread with your nonsense.

[XPac]

whats would be the problem to some people?

It's the same problem SOME people might have with an all white team (though clearly not everyone has a problem with that).

But maybe it's not really a problem at all... maybe it shouldn't matter if a team is all white or all black. Maybe skin color should be irrelavent. I can certainly understand and respect the arguement on why it doesn't.

[son of jorel]

Back in the 1970s you could have gotten away with this and it would have been fun and it would have sold like hotcakes and it would have been probably called "The Black Avengers".

In today's age of political correctness there's no way this would fly because of course, someone would be offended.

ha ha 'blackawk'. how ironic.:biggrin:

[son of jorel]

It's the same problem SOME people might have with an all white team (though clearly not everyone has a problem with that).

But maybe it's not really a problem at all... maybe it shouldn't matter if a team is all white or all black. Maybe skin color should be irrelavent. I can certainly understand and respect the arguement on why it doesn't.

black main characters. white supporting characters. white publising company probably a white writer and artist...one or both.

wow. i can see now hoe some people would be spitting blood! it sounds like these black folks be getting together for a superhero riot to mash up the marvel u.

[son of jorel]

as for the 'racism' angle ..you know in my scenario when brother voodoo is gathering all these 'african' originated heroes, there could be a funny or wtf! moment by an established WHITE character being 'eligible' as it were but they didnt know they had black blood in them from the way way past. thats would be funny all these black heroes and one white.

now before you scoff look at this. if say luke cages daughter had a child by a white man in later years, then say that child had a white spouse later on, the resulting children would show no outwards signs of being 'black' but would still be eligible because of cage's ancestral link.

there could be some white hero walking around now whose great great great grandmother had a dalliance with a slave back in the day.

would this please the 'pc' brigade? ya get to have the white 'winston zeddmore'

blue marvel
black panther
storm
photon
triathlon
brother voodoo
war machine
hawkeye!:wink:

[XPac]

as for the 'racism' angle ..you know in my scenario when brother voodoo is gathering all these 'african' originated heroes, there could be a funny or wtf! moment by an established WHITE character being 'eligible' as it were but they didnt know they had black blood in them from the way way past. thats would be funny all these black heroes and one white.

now before you scoff look at this. if say luke cages daughter had a child by a white man in later years, then say that child had a white spouse later on, the resulting children would show no outwards signs of being 'black' but would still be eligible because of cage's ancestral link.

there could be some white hero walking around now whose great great great grandmother had a dalliance with a slave back in the day.

would this please the 'pc' brigade? ya get to have the white 'winston zeddmore'

blue marvel
black panther
storm
photon
triathlon
brother voodoo
war machine
hawkeye!:wink:

I think it would be even funnier if they found a guy like Bischop to be inellgiable because he wasn't actually african. Though Bischop is evil now, so he probably wouldn't work.

But if you wanna throw in a token white guy for fun... I'd pick someone like US Agent. He'd just be a blast on the team.

[Deus ex Chris]

there are levels of persecution.

um most white gays back in the day could walk down streets without being lynched. yeah they may have had to hide the fact, but better than being chained and fed scraps eh? . so gays have been persecuted? yes they have but not really comparable to hundreds of years of slavery and conditioning. what have gays been subjected in the past on the level of slavery? look at the after effects even. black people still walking around with their slavemasters surnames
Gays have been subjected to violence and death for hundreds of years, simply for being who they are. There are still nations in this world that stone, lynch, and bury alive men found having sex with other men. No, it's not the same thing as slavery, but then slavery isn't the same thing as the Holocaust--for example. The differences don't lessen the profoundly tragic nature of either. At some point, there stops being levels of persecution, and it all just becomes horribly monstrous. Many of the things gays have been subjected to can certainly be classified as monstrous. In my mind, it's all the same thing, whether the specific group being subjected to institutionalized persecution consists of blacks, gays, women, native peoples, or Jews. It's disgusting and terrible, and nobody deserves it.

jog on mate. you are not hi-jacking this thread with your nonsense.You were the one who turned this into blacks versus gays, mate.

[Kasper Cole]

Right. I love Slott's book, but again that is B.S...even if a writer came out and said that skin color was not a issue, would you guys believe him...NO. You would have a thread with people flaming each other...calling it forced.


That VERY THING happened to McDuffie. John Stewart and Firestorm (Jason) were added to a Justice League roster that already had Vixen and Black Lightning on it and people bashed the man for having an agenda to push black characters and make an all minority Justice League. McDuffie said in interviews and on message boards that he had no say in the roster when he came onto the book that it editorial picked it and fans basically called him a liar.

The simple truth is most books fail. That's a truth that transcends the skin color of the characters and the writer.

If you haven't been published over the last few decades, odds aren't good you won't be published a few decades from now.

Yeah but the Crew was being highly criticized before it even came out, some readers even called it the "ghetto Avenger" :frown:

Agreed, but that is rearly the case. Just look at most team books...Only Luke Cage is a member, and now Cloak, the New Warriors were cancled and they have the most black people on a team. Ironic.

While the diversity was appreciated, I quite frankly hated that book, too many OOC moments.

No, I don't think I will, considering how the two struggles are essentially the same thing.

And for the record, gays have been treated as "subhuman" for centuries, so save the homophobic "gays are stealing from the blacks" bullshit. Nobody owns persecution.

I agree that the too struggles are similar, civil rights issues are civil rights issues there are no exceptions.

With that said even black gay men and lesbians will tell you that the two struggles are not EXACTLY the same, when you're black there's a whole extra load of crap that comes with it from not receiving proper medical care, to being targeted by some banks for subprime mortgages.

with THAT said, homophobia is rampant in the black community, mostly due to how important the church and religion is in our communities and a long history of black males being seen as less than a man and sadly some view being gay as being MUCH less than a man, so there's a strong resistance in regards to males doing anything that can be seen as "soft" hence the rampant homophobia in our community...doesn't justify but it explains it.

and that's all I'm saying on that as to not take the thread off topic.

[XPac]

Yeah but the Crew was being highly criticized before it even came out, some readers even called it the "ghetto Avenger" :frown:





That can happen. Preconceptions can be a you know what.

Bendis got a lot of that when he wanted to add Spidey and Wolverine. He was called the JLA Avengers all the time.

And really, who didn't have all sorts of preconceptions about Young Avengers.

But the books themselves won people over. That doesn't always happen... as I said, most books fail.

[Kasper Cole]

That can happen. Preconceptions can be a you know what.

Bendis got a lot of that when he wanted to add Spidey and Wolverine. He was called the JLA Avengers all the time.

And really, who didn't have all sorts of preconceptions about Young Avengers.

But the books themselves won people over. That doesn't always happen... as I said, most books fail.

I agree that most books fail, but with books they have a largely black casts or a lead character who is black there at times (not always) tends to be people who come out of the woodwork to bash those books and misinform people about what goes on in those books.

[son of jorel]

Gays have been subjected to violence and death for hundreds of years, simply for being who they are. There are still nations in this world that stone, lynch, and bury alive men found having sex with other men. No, it's not the same thing as slavery, but then slavery isn't the same thing as the Holocaust--for example. The differences don't lessen the profoundly tragic nature of either. At some point, there stops being levels of persecution, and it all just becomes horribly monstrous. Many of the things gays have been subjected to can certainly be classified as monstrous. In my mind, it's all the same thing, whether the specific group being subjected to institutionalized persecution consists of blacks, gays, women, native peoples, or Jews. It's disgusting and terrible, and nobody deserves it.

You were the one who turned this into blacks versus gays, mate.

i didnt even bring gays up, just responded to what you wrote. and yes gays have had their share of persecution, but i am not having anyone equate it to what my ancestors went through. i dont want to start a thread but that glib comment about northstar and mystique is just nonsense. there is a reason that there is no 'gay hhistory month.'

homosexuality was quite rampant in english high society people like oscar wilde who had money and fame in the era when blacks were subjugated, chained mistreated, raped, beaten tortured and made to hate each other ( house negroes, field negroes)in such a way that it has shaped the way black people are is on another level. many gays in the past lived good priviledged lives albeit keeping their true selves hidden.

[son of jorel]

That VERY THING happened to McDuffie. John Stewart and Firestorm (Jason) were added to a Justice League roster that already had Vixen and Black Lightning on it and people bashed the man for having an agenda to push black characters and make an all minority Justice League. McDuffie said in interviews and on message boards that he had no say in the roster when he came onto the book that it editorial picked it and fans basically called him a liar.



Yeah but the Crew was being highly criticized before it even came out, some readers even called it the "ghetto Avenger" :frown:



While the diversity was appreciated, I quite frankly hated that book, too many OOC moments.



I agree that the too struggles are similar, civil rights issues are civil rights issues there are no exceptions.

With that said even black gay men and lesbians will tell you that the two struggles are not EXACTLY the same, when you're black there's a whole extra load of crap that comes with it from not receiving proper medical care, to being targeted by some banks for subprime mortgages.

with THAT said, homophobia is rampant in the black community, mostly due to how important the church and religion is in our communities and a long history of black males being seen as less than a man and sadly some view being gay as being MUCH less than a man, so there's a strong resistance in regards to males doing anything that can be seen as "soft" hence the rampant homophobia in our community...doesn't justify but it explains it.

and that's all I'm saying on that as to not take the thread off topic.

good post. this isnt a blacks against gays topic.

[Freakzeek]

good post. this isnt a blacks against gays topic. I don't want to get off-topic but whoever's comparing Black and Gay struggle, they really shouldn't even be put into the same subject of oppression wise, now CIVIL RIGHTS then yeah, But in terms of STRUGGLE and OPPRESSION,they shouldn't be put in the same category.

anyway, this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't argument for Black superhero teams, If they're gonna seen as "forced" either way, Marvel might as well make the book and get the black consumer's dollar. quite frankly i think the only readers who feel uncomfortable with the ideal are those who aren't comfortable with the idea of POC's coming together let alone talking to each other ever, whether that be in comic books or real life and really we're does realism end and began in Comics, the original avengers came together just because they felt somebody should protect earth from big threats, so why can't black heroes just get together to have a beer or go to a rap/jazz festival or their all at the same award show and their transported to another dimension or world there's literally thousands scenarios that writers can come up with

[Deus ex Chris]

i didnt even bring gays up, just responded to what you wrote. and yes gays have had their share of persecution, but i am not having anyone equate it to what my ancestors went through. i dont want to start a thread but that glib comment about northstar and mystique is just nonsense. there is a reason that there is no 'gay hhistory month.'
The comment wasn't glib. I'm not black, but I am gay. I was just illustrating that even when the stakes are more personal to me, this kind of idea isn't one I'm particularly interested in--at least, not if it's done just for the sake of doing it. If the creators are actually trying to say something with it, then sure, why not? Otherwise, I would really rather read a book with a well-balanced cast rich in cultural and ethnic diversity.

Anyway, you were the one who turned it into blacks versus gays. and you've continued with your dismissive, homophobic bullshit. You having issues with gays doesn't make my opinions nonsense, and the comment about gay history month doesn't make your own views any more valid.. That stuff just makes you bigoted.

[homosexuality was quite rampant in english high society people like oscar wilde who had money and fame in the era when blacks were subjugated, chained mistreated, raped, beaten tortured and made to hate each other ( house negroes, field negroes)in such a way that it has shaped the way black people are is on another level. many gays in the past lived good priviledged lives albeit keeping their true selves hidden.
You're right, but there have also been many gays who've been stoned, lynched, burned, gassed, and buried alive--and those aren't just anomalous incidents. We're talking about systematic, institutionalized persecution.

Man, that sounds familiar.

[Deus ex Chris]

good post. this isnt a blacks against gays topic.
Then why did you turn it into one?

[Freakzeek]

Then why did you turn it into one?

Because somebody brought up gay people, and go transformed into one, so can we please talk about the possibility of a black superhero team

[Deus ex Chris]

Because somebody brought up gay people, and go transformed into one, so can we please talk about the possibility of a black superhero team
I brought up gay people, and I just explained why I brought up. I, however, did not turn it into a blacks versus gays thread, and my initial comment certainly didn't merit the response he gave. Now, I've contributed to keeping this thread off topic, but I won't apologize for responding to his dismissive, homophobic drivel.

[son of jorel]

Because somebody brought up gay people, and go transformed into one, so can we please talk about the possibility of a black superhero team

thank you. i think certain people just want a soapbox and my thread looked like a prime candidate.

mate this thread is about black superheroes as freakzeek said. find another forum to get on your soapbox. geez.

[Kasper Cole]

Christopher O was just speaking from HIS perspective, which is all he can really do. He's not black but he is a minority and has probably faced bigotry and oppression on some level at some point (I'm assuming). All he was saying was that he wouldn't want to see a team of nothing but gay and lesbian characters, he was speaking from his perspective, that's all.

[Deus ex Chris]

thank you. i think certain people just want a soapbox and my thread looked like a prime candidate.

mate this thread is about black superheroes as freakzeek said. find another forum to get on your soapbox. geez.
Dude, you got on your soapbox first. My initial comment was completely innocuous, and you decided to come at me with the homophobia. Honestly, what did you think would happen when you did that?

Also, I've been posting here for seven years, and I'll continue to post here. Perhaps you should find another forum because I'm not going anywhere.

[Deus ex Chris]

Christopher O was just speaking from HIS perspective, which is all he can really do. He's not black but he is a minority and has probably faced bigotry and oppression on some level at some point (I'm assuming). All he was saying was that he wouldn't want to see a team of nothing but gay and lesbian characters, he was speaking from his perspective, that's all.
That is absolutely all I was doing. Thanks for recognizing that.

[son of jorel]

I brought up gay people, and I just explained why I brought up. I, however, did not turn it into a blacks versus gays thread, and my initial comment certainly didn't merit the response he gave. Now, I've contributed to keeping this thread off topic, but I won't apologize for responding to his dismissive, homophobic drivel.

yeah, because i am not 'pc' and tip toe around gay issues i am 'homophobic' because i say black people have had it worse. you are a bully who shouts 'homophobia' when someone disagrees , hoping that will somehow shame the other person into giving in. no. not today.

i have no issues against gays at all. no i just have a phobia against people who hijack a thread for their own agendas. i am suprised you didnt come up in here shouting 'HATE CRIME HATE CRIME!!'

i wont even respond to you. i'll just respond to people who just want to comment on the thread title and not get on some soapbox over imaginary predjudice. good day mate.

[Deus ex Chris]

yeah, because i am not 'pc' and tip toe around gay issues i am 'homophobic' because i say black people have had it worse. you are a bully who shouts 'homophobia' when someone disagrees .

i have no issues against gays at all. no i just have a phobia against people who hijack a thread for their own agendas. i am suprised you didnt come up in here shouting 'HATE CRIME HATE CRIME!!'

Go back and reread my initial post and your response. You hijacked your own thread. And, no, I'm not a bully. I just refuse to let you belittle and dismiss me, and I won't apologize for calling your comments what they were--and that's homophobic.

[son of jorel]

Dude, you got on your soapbox first. My initial comment was completely innocuous, and you decided to come at me with the homophobia. Honestly, what did you think would happen when you did that?

Also, I've been posting here for seven years, and I'll continue to post here. Perhaps you should find another forum because I'm not going anywhere.

thats like me calling you racist because you dont agree with me. geez...hwo did people put up wit thsi drivel for 7 years??

[son of jorel]

Go back and reread my initial post and your response. You hijacked your own thread. And, no, I'm not a bully. I just refuse to let you belittle and dismiss me, and I won't apologize for calling your comments what they were--and that's homophobic.

how can i hijack my own thread?

call me what you want. i am black so it follows i must be somehow homopobic.

that makes you racist. anyway, we even now?

[Deus ex Chris]

thats like me calling you racist because you dont agree with me.
No, it's not because my comments weren't racist.
geez...hwo did people put up wit thsi drivel for 7 years??
Most people here don't act like you, but many of the ones who do have also had to deal with me.

[Deus ex Chris]

how can i hijack my own thread?
By turning the discussion towards the blacks versus gays debate, which is precisely what you did.

call me what you want. i am black so i must be homopobic.

that makes you racist. we even now?
Absolutely not. I never said all black people were homophobic. I was talking about you specifically, and that was based on your comments not your skin color.

[son of jorel]

No, it's not because my comments weren't racist.

Most people here don't act like you, but many of the ones who do have also had to deal with me.

racist. is it because i am black you call me homophobic racist?

[son of jorel]

By turning into blacks versus gays, which is precisely what you did.


Absolutely not. I never said all black people were homophobic. I was talking about you specifically, and that was based on your comments not your skin color.

dont backtrack. just another person who think blacks and homophobia go and in hand. i didnt make any gay slurs. names or say you were subhuman or lesser, nothing. but you get the idea i am homophobic. probably cos i'm black.


sigh. this thread is degenerating real fast...

[Freakzeek]

Christopher O, I respect your opnion & perspective, and as somebody who has a gay brother and ran two anti-prop 8 (no on H8te) campaign in my school in southern california, I think what son of jorel is trying to say, is while Homosexuals are a minority, the struggles of Blacks and Gays/Lesbians shoudln't be lumped together. there's also the off-topic subect of privilege, just an example, A blond hair blue eyed gay white male, unless he is outed as gay enjoys and benefits from the same preivileges as his straight counterpart, Race and sexual orention shouldn't fall under the same category, nobody is saying anybody has it worse than the other. At the end of the day we all like comic books and we're all human,

so let's talk about A black superhero team: no blue marvel, Black panther as Strageist leader, Bishop as tatics manager, Patriot , Cage, Monica Rambeau and Misty knight as field agents, through in Collen wing for some flavor and you get a pretty cool gumbo of characters

[Deus ex Chris]

dont backtrack. just another person who think blacks and homophobia go and in hand.
I'm absolutely not backtracking. I never made any generalizations about the attitudes of black people. My comments were about you.

sigh. this thread is degenerating real fast...
It is what you made it.

[son of jorel]

I'm absolutely not backtracking. I never made any generalizations about the attitudes of black people. My comments were about you.


It is what you made it.

more racist backtracking. not very nice unfair labeling is it racist?

[Kasper Cole]

By turning the discussion towards the blacks versus gays debate, which is precisely what you did.


Absolutely not. I never said all black people were homophobic. I was talking about you specifically, and that was based on your comments not your skin color.

To be fair I don't think his initial comment was homophobic....insensitive maybe, but not homophobic. He was saying that the struggle black have and the stuggle gays and lesbians had are nothing alike....I don't agree that they are NOTHING alike, but they aren't the same and as I said before black gay men and lesbians will tell you the same thing.

[Kasper Cole]

Now that I think about it, I wish War Machine's cast had included the Crew....Kasper could have been his backup and Junta could have been one of his tech guys.

[son of jorel]

Christopher O, I respect your opnion & perspective, and as somebody who has a gay brother and ran two anti-prop 8 (no on H8te) campaign in my school in southern california, I think what son of jorel is trying to say, is while Homosexuals are a minority, the struggles of Blacks and Gays/Lesbians shoudln't be lumped together. there's also the off-topic subect of privilege, just an example, A blond hair blue eyed gay white male, unless he is outed as gay enjoys and benefits from the same preivileges as his straight counterpart, Race and sexual orention shouldn't fall under the same category, nobody is saying anybody has it worse than the other. At the end of the day we all like comic books and we're all human,

so let's talk about A black superhero team: no blue marvel, Black panther as Strageist leader, Bishop as tatics manager, Patriot , Cage, Monica Rambeau and Misty knight as field agents, through in Collen wing for some flavor and you get a pretty cool gumbo of characters

thank you very much freakzeek. you are better at explaining the situation to christoper than i am. look, i am not a 'pc' kinda guy, but i am not homophobic either and i hate the assumption. it was just too easy for chris to shout 'homophobia' just because i wasnt tiptoeing around him in the fashionable pc way prevalent nowadays. anyone could see i wasnt homophobic in my comments. he called me a name, i just played the game back. i just do not like people trying to twist the purpose of my thread and make me out to be something i am not.

i would very much like this thread to get back on topic.

[Expletive Deleted]

Talk about comics, not each other.

[son of jorel]

Talk about comics, not each other.

no problem. just object to unfair labeling.

[Deus ex Chris]

more racist backtracking. not very nice unfair labeling is it racist?
Well, I know it's not true. I also know I've said nothing to merit the label, so it really doesn't concern me. Continue using it, if it makes you feel better.

Christopher O, I respect your opnion & perspective, and as somebody who has a gay brother and ran two anti-prop 8 (no on H8te) campaign in my school in southern california, I think what son of jorel is trying to say, is while Homosexuals are a minority, the struggles of Blacks and Gays/Lesbians shoudln't be lumped together. there's also the off-topic subect of privilege, just an example, A blond hair blue eyed gay white male, unless he is outed as gay enjoys and benefits from the same preivileges as his straight counterpart, Race and sexual orention shouldn't fall under the same category, nobody is saying anybody has it worse than the other. At the end of the day we all like comic books and we're all human,
To be fair I don't think his initial comment was homophobic....insensitive maybe, but not homophobic. He was saying that the struggle black have and the stuggle gays and lesbians had are nothing alike....I don't agree that they are NOTHING alike, but they aren't the same and as I said before black gay men and lesbians will tell you the same thing.

I'm not saying there aren't difference in the details--which are absolutely important and shouldn't be dismissed or overlooked--but it all amounts to the same thing. That's how I feel about it. I'm not bothered by the fact that the two of you don't feel the same way. I respect your opinions and your right to them but that's because you've both been thoughtful and respectful to me. I give it when I get it.

[4sake]

Because somebody brought up gay people, and go transformed into one, so can we please talk about the possibility of a black superhero team

Shuri (leader)
Kasper Cole
Josiah X
Cardiac
Queen Divine Justice
Vibraxas

Support team
Okoye
Nikki Adams
Everett K. Ross
Dr. Joshua Itobo

[Hypestyle]

What do you think?

black panther (Shuri)
blue marvel
photon
storm
triathlon
luke cage
Dr. voodoo
warmachine.....

you have brains brawn and power in this team. how would they fare against other teams?

this is a one off mini series waiting to happen...


I wouldn't mind seeing a team like that for a miniseries, but I'm loathe to look at the responses on this thread..

[son of jorel]

I wouldn't mind seeing a team like that for a miniseries, but I'm loathe to look at the responses on this thread..

not that bad..but beware the odd RACIST on the thread who seems offended about the very idea of a 'one off' team not lorded over by a caucasian hero.

[Freakzeek]

I just gotta say , I abhor queen divine justice, i just wish they would completely erase that character from history

[4sake]

I just gotta say , I abhor queen divine justice, i just wish they would completely erase that character from history

Why? I really don't know that much about her myself (other than what I read on the net.)

[Spectra]

The Enforcers

Black Team/First Responders and International Adventures

Black Panther
Falcon
War Machine
Goliath
Cage

Gold Team/Space Alliance and Galactic Adventures

Pulsar
Blue Marvel
Isis
Doctor Voodoo
Midnight Sun



White Team/ Mutant Alliance and Interdimensional Adventures

Storm
Bishop
Gentle
Cloak
Pathway


Stand by's

Debrii
Silhouette
3D Man
Blade
Patriot
Night Thrasher
Misty Knight
Deathlok
Battlestar
Dr.Cecilia Reyes
Rage
Hybrid