Batgirl #1 - General Discussion *SPOILERS* [Archive]

HopeLantern

08-19-2009, 12:44 PM

Not really surprising, sorta saw that coming. It's like the spoiler that wasn't though I can understand why people are upset that you put it in the title. Maybe Good Ol' Captain Jim can come to the rescue again and change the title of this thread...

I sorta feel that Cass has been a throw away character from DC's prospective and that maybe Steph getting the suit was always going to be a part of the plan since her return from death. I don't know how well the previous Batgirl series sold, but they probably felt that Steph, given her history in the Bat family, and with Tim, would be a bigger draw than Cass, Barbara or anyone else wearing the suit. I'm not saying I agree with this or that I like it, but that DC needed someone to fill the "Batgirl" role and voila, Steph. There will probably be a Batgirl / Red Robin story somewhere in the next 6 mos. Just so typically contrived. Will not be picking up this title.

Edit: forgot to mention, although I expected Steph to get it, was hoping that Misfit somehow would get it. That'd been fun...

The Cool Thatguy

08-19-2009, 12:46 PM

I'm not convinced that its as cut and dried as Steph is Batgirl. If you will look very carefully, there are a few things that might say Babs can walk, and I'm not convinced that Cass isn't coming back. It might be all three of them being batgirl before its over with. Maybe I'm wrong, but there were just some subtle things that made me think that.

I think you give them too much credit. DC's just found a way to push Steph and screw Cass. Win win for them.

joel221

08-19-2009, 12:54 PM

Well, that's just stupid; she didn't fight for Bruce Wayne, she fought for The Bat, for the symbol, the ideal, not the man.

QFT, as evidenced here in this scan shared by ScottyQuick in the Cass Cain appreciation thread:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/joel221/Batgirl50.jpg

Clearly, Cass had a meaningful relationship with Bruce. They "got" one another in a meaningful way. But at the end of the day, Batgirl's unrelenting passion was never about Bruce. It was about the heroism and chance for redemption represented by the Batman.

celticguy

08-19-2009, 01:03 PM

Well, that's just stupid; she didn't fight for Bruce Wayne, she fought for The Bat, for the symbol, the ideal, not the man.

well she mentions the Crest but yeah she say she fought for him.

I don't think Babs can walk but I think she is being set up as a mentor to the new batgirl. A bats of prey kind of thing if you were. I don't get babs dumping Misfit just to start a mentor/mentee thing with someone else a short time later but there you go.

AliceWilde

08-19-2009, 02:53 PM

I'm new to the comics, missed the Battle for the Cowl, Batman R.I.P arcs. I have some older issues of Batgirl and read No Man's Land. I've seen scans of Stephanie Brown as both Spoiler and as Robin.

Did Cassandra say she was giving up her cowl before this issue? If so, what was the reason behind it? If not, then how did we know she was being replaced by someone else (ironically her best friend)? She seemed like an extremely able, awesome character and I think I remember reading something about her becoming "evil"...

Not to mention, why does Steph want to become Batgirl? What happened to her as Robin isn't anything someone would want to go through again. I know Tim told her to stop being Spoiler, so she chooses to become Batgirl instead?

Don Quixote

08-19-2009, 02:59 PM

celticguy

08-19-2009, 03:03 PM

So, if Cass apparently only fought for Bruce (which is total bullshit) then why did she stick around to set up the Network and help out during R.I.P and Battle for the Cowl?

I don't know, I don't see Stephanie as Batgirl for very long. Knowing DC, they're just setting it up to kill her off again, and bring Babs back. I'm pretty convinced now that people high up at DC do not like Cassandra Cain, so it wouldn't surprise me too much if she's either killed or just disappears completely.

this is thin but the network thing was before he was dead at the time they assumed they were filling in for him or had reason to hope that they were.

Make her the new Arsenal they have to use that name it is just too cool not to.

iamhollywood

08-19-2009, 03:35 PM

Yeah, I don't really see them as bringing Babs back other than as a mentor nor did I see any hints that she could walk. However, I do have a feeling, small as it is, that Stephanie won't be Batgirl for too much longer. Then again I could be completely wrong and that would be all right with me, just so long as we start seeing her start behaving more competently than she did in the first issue of this series.

galactica

08-19-2009, 03:35 PM

Chiroptera

08-19-2009, 03:59 PM

So Steph's the new Batgirl huh? Interesting... I may have to pick this up and give it a try.

I liked Cassie but never had the intense love for her that other fans did, so it's not quite so disappointing for me to see her go. Actually, while I can appreciate the upset with continuity here, I must say I like that at least someone in the Bat-family is so hurt by Bruce's death as to opt to retire and try to live a more peaceful life; granted I don't really think Cassie was the right choice for that but I still think the sentiment itself is interesting.

I guess I have one more Bat-book worth trying out... Still irked that the Bat-women are the only ones holding my interest lately.

ryerye17

08-19-2009, 04:10 PM

(although saying this might get me killed in this forum) I never really liked Cass, so I guess a new person in a new Batfamily might be fun.

Although, I like the Spoiler's costume. I think Batgirl's is ugly. Honestly, combat boots?

Spoiler's hood was HAWT though =)

The Cool Thatguy

08-19-2009, 04:24 PM

Armless Penguin

08-19-2009, 04:36 PM

Man, Cassandra Cain fans are some of the most paranoid I've ever seen.

Considering everything in this issue points toward this book being more of an ensemble book than a solo Stephanie Brown story, it's pretty evident that's not the last time we're going to see Cass. While the "explanation" for her giving up the cowl was admittedly thin, it still seems there's more to it, and I think a lot of people are just jumping at shadows that aren't there.

The Cool Thatguy

08-19-2009, 04:37 PM

Man, Cassandra Cain fans are some of the most paranoid I've ever seen.

Considering everything in this issue points toward this book being more of an ensemble book than a solo Stephanie Brown story, it's pretty evident that's not the last time we're going to see Cass. While the "explanation" for her giving up the cowl was admittedly thin, it still seems a lot of you guys are just jumping at shadows that aren't there.

It's called pattern recognition. Past is prelude to the future.

Corrina

08-19-2009, 04:38 PM

I think you give them too much credit. DC's just found a way to push Steph and screw Cass. Win win for them.

DC has done quite a turnaround on Steph, given the fact that editorial ordered her death during War Games.

Iz all very weird and confusing.

Maybe the book will turn out to be good and resolve all this?

Or maybe Steph will get killed again, forcing Cass to come back.

Armless Penguin

08-19-2009, 04:39 PM

It's called pattern recognition. Past is prelude to the future.

Cassandra Cain isn't the only character to be ill-used or written out-of-character in the history of comics. She'll get over it. The fact that some people seem to think DC editorial has some kind of vendetta against her is ridiculous. Steph is a perfect example of this.

The Cool Thatguy

08-19-2009, 04:41 PM

Cassandra Cain isn't the only character to be ill-used or written out-of-character in the history of comics. She'll get over it. The fact that some people seem to think DC editorial has some kind of vendetta against her is ridiculous. Steph is a perfect example of this.

Because writers are machines that hold no opinion towards the characters they write

*coughBendiscough*

...right.

DC has done quite a turnaround on Steph, given the fact that editorial ordered her death during War Games.

Iz all very weird and confusing.

Maybe the book will turn out to be good and resolve all this?

Or maybe Steph will get killed again, forcing Cass to come back.

Dan D's a fan of Spoiler and isn't one of Cass, though. Big difference.

CMBMOOL

08-19-2009, 04:51 PM

Well she has been Robin before so maybe Steph being the new Batgirl can be a good change for her. :redface:

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-19-2009, 05:00 PM

SD provided both a discussion and a past Bruce/Cass page to hightlight why this issue didn't make much sense.

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/829825.html#cutid1

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3618/batgirl05027.jpg

FemGeek

08-19-2009, 05:10 PM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9478540']SD provided both a discussion and a past Bruce/Cass page to hightlight why this issue didn't make much sense.

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/829825.html#cutid1

Thanks for the link to that. It was Terrible!! WTF?? Seriously, that is the single most stupid giving up I've ever seen! Cass was never like this, never a quitter. In BATOs she started the Network to continue on for him, when everyone else gave up she was the one trying to take his place and keep the Outsiders alive. DC better give us a damn good explanation for this new Cass-mess. And why would Spoiler, her best friend, not convince her to stay, jeez I mean thats really bad friendship.

Scott Taylor

08-19-2009, 05:23 PM

She's pretty intense. I can see her dropping the cowl for a while, out of grief.

Dick/babs

08-19-2009, 05:54 PM

is this Mean Cassandra do not Accept and acknowledge Dick Grayson as Batman

Joe Acro

08-19-2009, 06:14 PM

QFT, as evidenced here in this scan shared by ScottyQuick in the Cass Cain appreciation thread:

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9478540']SD provided both a discussion and a past Bruce/Cass page to hightlight why this issue didn't make much sense.
I'm not seeing the problem.

If the person inside the suit changes, the meaning of the symbol changes. There's no Batman now, just Dick as Batman. (Not a sentiment I agree with, but one I could see.) If Batman is dead, might her purpose for being Batgirl have died as well?

The Cool Thatguy

08-19-2009, 06:18 PM

I'm not seeing the problem.

If the person inside the suit changes, the meaning of the symbol changes. There's no Batman now, just Dick as Batman. (Not a sentiment I agree with, but one I could see.) If Batman is dead, might her purpose for being Batgirl have died as well?

Why would it? Cass never became Batgirl for Batman's sake, as much as she did worship him. She became Batgirl for her own sake.

That 'self delusion' line makes me think that DC's on their predetermination kick still. So I doubt Cass will be around.

zakter

08-19-2009, 06:18 PM

This thread just oozes Doom and Goom. Give the book a chance. This was only the first issue. Do I like Stephanie as Batgirl? no. I think Robin said it best in the issue,"sloppy". However, I will give dc a fair shake and let them prove to me this can be a good series.

Joe Acro

08-19-2009, 06:57 PM

Why would it? Cass never became Batgirl for Batman's sake, as much as she did worship him. She became Batgirl for her own sake.
The scans provided were supposed to show that she cares about the symbol, not the man. My argument is that perhaps there is no separation in her mind. That the symbol only means something because of the man behind it.

And also given that context, she may have become Batgirl in her own right, but only stayed Batgirl because of the ideal(s) that symbol represented to her.

The Cool Thatguy

08-19-2009, 07:04 PM

The scans provided were supposed to show that she cares about the symbol, not the man. My argument is that perhaps there is no separation in her mind. That the symbol only means something because of the man behind it.

And also given that context, she may have become Batgirl in her own right, but only stayed Batgirl because of the ideal(s) that symbol represented to her.

And in the scans provided, it's clearly shown that there is a separation in her mind. So yeah.

The Xenos

08-19-2009, 07:05 PM

I, for one, am glad we have begun to replace the inferior Asian race with their blonde haired blue eyed Aryan superiors. :rolleyes:

Kidding aside, I do miss Cass and really wanted her to be in this book even if she wasn't still in the costume. Hopefully she'll be back and help her friend.

Joe Acro

08-19-2009, 07:06 PM

And in the scans provided, it's clearly shown that there is a separation in her mind. So yeah.I don't think they make that clear.

The Cool Thatguy

08-19-2009, 07:32 PM

I don't think they make that clear.

"Not you, this."

She says that while talking to Batman, and pointing at his symbol.

How much clearer could it be?

taintedshimmer

08-19-2009, 08:06 PM

She's pretty intense. I can see her dropping the cowl for a while, out of grief.

Agreed, even if it seems almost out of place with the rest of it. Lets hope for more flashbacks.

Overjoyed with the outcome, though. I wanted Batgirl Corps, but this is almost as good.

Spiffy

08-19-2009, 09:32 PM

NOTHING is good about this.

Let's forget about the "out of sight, out of mind" attitude with Cassandra--the "she's so damaged now we should tuck her away and hope people forget about her" track she's on.

Look at what they appear to be trying to do with Babs.

Is there ANY indication she's still Oracle? Even a single panel of her in her Ops room or interacting with anyone as that hero?

To me, it seems like she's being pushed by this plotline into that "I'm burned out and angry" headspace where they take an established character and re-purpose them solely for the cliched role of "Trainer/Mentor".

The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, but I bet that's where this is going. After the dust finally clears on the lingering stories going on now, we won't see her anywhere else in DC continuity for a while (if at all again) as Oracle, but she'll be pushed here as Mentor lady.

I was actually surprised that Blackest Night has her as Oracle, but I think that's just a remnant left from the old regime and it hasn't caught up to the new regime yet.

Captain Jim

08-19-2009, 09:33 PM

I think people should realize that they were never going to go in depth into Cass' reasons for giving up the Bat in this issue. This isn't the issue or even the arc for that. This issue/arc is to set up Stephanie as the new Batgirl not to explain why the last one is no longer Batgirl. I'm sure there will be time for that bu it won't be now. I doubt this is the last we've seen of Cassandra Cain and there will probably be a more in depth exploration when she shows up next.

Man, Cassandra Cain fans are some of the most paranoid I've ever seen.

...it's pretty evident that's not the last time we're going to see Cass. While the "explanation" for her giving up the cowl was admittedly thin, it still seems there's more to it, and I think a lot of people are just jumping at shadows that aren't there.

Good points above.

It's more than a bit bothersome that the strongest criticism is coming from people who couldn't be bothered to read the comic. If you're going to criticize it, don't base your criticism on some internet poster's biased one sentence summary. Read it for yourself.

the Hornet

08-19-2009, 09:37 PM

so lets see the update -

Batman goes time travelling
Nightwing becomes Batman
Robin becomes Red Robin
Spoiler becomes Batgirl

So what can we do with Cass and Babs?

Captain Jim

08-19-2009, 09:40 PM

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they didn't continue to play a role in this very title.

Scott Taylor

08-19-2009, 09:45 PM

The issue read a bit like an extension of The Network to me. I could totally see this being an ensemble issue. And part of me wants Cass to become Spoiler, she'd wtf every villain out there at least once.

Jorriss

08-19-2009, 09:48 PM

so lets see the update -

Batman goes time travelling
Nightwing becomes Batman
Robin becomes Red Robin
Spoiler becomes Batgirl

So what can we do with Cass and Babs?
It doesn't seem fitting necessarily given everyone else's change, but does Babs need to change at all? Hopefully there is a change, and they calm the **** down with how good she can fight.

Spiffy

08-19-2009, 10:06 PM

part of me wants Cass to become Spoiler, she'd wtf every villain out there at least once.

Keep wishing...

Honestly, could you ever see them doing something like that?

If she comes back at all, it will be with a new B.S. identity.

Or possibly they'll "Donna Troy" her. Everyone will refer to her as "Cassandra Cain" (and she probably won't dress in any costume other than vague ninja-ware...)

Actually, of all the options that last one isn't THE WORST way they can go. At least its better than a B.S. badly cooked up new hero code name and costume.

shaxper

08-19-2009, 10:14 PM

DC has done quite a turnaround on Steph, given the fact that editorial ordered her death during War Games.

Iz all very weird and confusing.

Maybe the book will turn out to be good and resolve all this?

Or maybe Steph will get killed again, forcing Cass to come back.

They'll never kill Steph again for the very same reason that they have no idea what to do with her: a lot of severely pissed off feminists are watching carefully. Making Steph Robin and then removing her, killing her in the most brutal of ways, and then totally forgetting about her afterward upset people to the extent that an entire movement formed to get DC to acknowledge what they'd done.

In my opinion, it had less to do with gender than the fact that Steph never should have been Robin in the first place. Of course, the way they killed her was just sadistically sexual in the worst of ways.

Point being, a minor and utterly forgettable character got thrust into the Bat spotlight when she shouldn't have, and now DC is stuck keeping her in the spotlight for fear of offending a large community of fans. If she can't be Robin, and if no one gives a sh*t about Spoiler (especially now that Tim is going all spooky loner), then Batgirl seems like a reasonable choice. If the title fails, she can still hover in the background playing a time-honored role in the Bat-universe.

Cass, on the other hand, is a solid character with a lot of devoted fans. She can easily take on a new identity and work out just as well in the long run.

Mister Blisterfists

08-19-2009, 10:18 PM

At least Cass has it better than Kyle Rayner or Conner Hawke at the moment.

though, she and Wally West are both kinda at that line.

Captain Jim

08-19-2009, 10:23 PM

At least Cass has it better than Kyle Rayner or Conner Hawke at the moment.

though, she and Wally West are both kinda at that line.

Isn't Kyle a regular in GL Corps? Isn't Wally a regular in Titans?

Fatguy

08-19-2009, 10:25 PM

So....nobody is actually gonna talk about the issue itself?

Very much to my surprise, I enjoyed it quite a bit. Steph was fun, and I'm liking the possibility of a Batman/Robin type relationship between Babs and Stephanie. I enjoyed the art too. Even though I'm a big Cass fan, I have nothing to complain about here. It read very well.

Clockan

08-19-2009, 10:49 PM

im very happy with the issue. im in for the long ride. i see cass feeling wierd about the costume with bruce gone. to me its not completely stupid (only 85% stupid:tongue: ) her mentor just died shes going through emotions that are freaking her out. shes badass but shes also human. i dont mind it that much but im no hardcore fan. i get the disappointment in that for you guys.

but fans of cass should be happy. shes not dead! this is what i was worried about. im not a big fan of hers at all but im totally against killing a character just to kick up another. at least something could happen with her down the road hopefully. didnt she have another identity that was pretty cool in justice league elite? that gets my vote.

im looking forward to steph as batgirl. i think her strong ties to the bat family is a better fit than cass. she was robin once after all. good promotion i think. and i love her personality. plus it looks like babs is going to have a mentor role in the book. makes me happy. i love babs. i never really realized how much of a supporting cast steph could have. babs, leslie, dick, tim, her mom.. pretty good so far

favorite part of the book was the cop asking which bat person she was. loved that

Henker

08-19-2009, 10:56 PM

Or possibly they'll "Donna Troy" her. Everyone will refer to her as "Cassandra Cain" (and she probably won't dress in any costume other than vague ninja-ware...)
I could see them dropping the first name and just calling her Cain, since it's one of those grimdark antihero names (which DC seems to want to make her).

Captain Jim

08-19-2009, 11:12 PM

I haven't read the book yet; have only had time to skim it. But let me say this: I am very glad that they revealed BG's identity early in the first issue. It was beginning to look like they were going to string this out for a long time and I wasn't in favor of that.

I'm a little shocked that I was actually right about it being Stephanie. I had predicted Dick correctly as Batman, and Tim as Red Robin, and was pretty confident about those. But I was a lot less confident about my prediction that Steph would be Batgirl. I know I wasn't the first to predict it, but I did begin predicting it in early April, so I think that's pretty goood.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=263665

And while I haven't read the issue yet, I'm happy about this. I've always liked the character. The people who say Steph was a throwaway character have obviously never read the many Dixon penned issues of Robin in which she appears.

Nothing against Cassandra, but it has been apparent for quite awhile that it wasn't going to be her. I don't see any conspiracy here though. That whole notion is ridiculous. I do believe that Didio prematurely canned her title years ago to make way for the Batwoman character (at the same time he wanted to kill off Nightwing because he thought he was redundant). And I agree that it was handled very poorly (the storyline in Robin).

But I also believe that the Batgirl mini-series earlier this year was a trial balloon to see if Cassie could still hold a book in today's market. The fact that many of her hardcore fans didn't like the mini is beside the point. The poor sales on this title are ultimately responsible for her removal from the role. The irony is that her many fans who refused to pick this up indirectly contributed to the decision.

ScottyQuick

08-19-2009, 11:36 PM

But I also believe that the Batgirl mini-series earlier this year was a trial balloon to see if Cassie could still hold a book in today's market. The fact that many of her hardcore fans didn't like the mini is beside the point. The poor sales on this title are ultimately responsible for her removal from the role. The irony is that her many fans who refused to pick this up indirectly contributed to the decision.

BRILLIANT trial! Give her to a writer who's most well-known for his inability to write her character, and then be shocked, shocked when 2/3rds of it sell worse then ANY issue of her ongoing.

Also, you were surprised at Steph as Batgirl? Really?

d newton

08-19-2009, 11:54 PM

Point being, a minor and utterly forgettable character got thrust into the Bat spotlight when she shouldn't have.
Show me where Steph was a minor forgettable character? :tongue:

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-19-2009, 11:55 PM

But I also believe that the Batgirl mini-series earlier this year was a trial balloon to see if Cassie could still hold a book in today's market. The fact that many of her hardcore fans didn't like the mini is beside the point. The poor sales on this title are ultimately responsible for her removal from the role. The irony is that her many fans who refused to pick this up indirectly contributed to the decision.

Wasn't that mini poorly received because of the writer? What bearing does that have on the character herself? :confused:

Blight

08-20-2009, 12:28 AM

Doug Seid

08-20-2009, 12:34 AM

I havn't read the comic yet, It was sold out by the time I got to my local comic shop. But I was really hoping it would be steph. I'm not so big on her being batgirl instead of spoiler, but I guess DC figured it would get more sales from a batgirl comic than a spoiler comic, and they are probably right. I'm hoping the series will be good, and I'm hoping they don't do anything too horrible when they change her costume.

The irony is that her many fans who refused to pick this up indirectly contributed to the decision.

Well.. that may be true. What are we supposed to do, buy bad comics just because we don't want the characters in them to get canned? oy.

And even if he said nobody was interested in her save for Beechen, that's bull. Chuck Dixon had a story ready that was never seen the light of day which was about the same thing. And that above all else just make's me mad. But of course Dan will say, "It's all part of the plan."

I thought Dixon got fired or blacklisted from DC or something? Pretty sad, considering he created, or at least gave life to almost all of these 'supporting characters' that are getting solo books.

Blight

08-20-2009, 12:41 AM

Well.. that may be true. What are we supposed to do, buy bad comics just because we don't want the characters in them to get canned? oy.

It was a complete no win situation for her fans. You buy the book written by an author whose really just cleaning up his plot holes of his Robin run still showing the same absolute understanding of the character. Or you don't buy it and Cass loses the title and goes to limbo. Talk about a no win situation.

But then again in the end perhaps it's the best for her until a better writer who likes the character writes about her. Because if the series was a sucess we be having a Beechen written ongoing with Cass (co-staring Cass's long lost "bad" sister and Cass's "love interest" with no doubt her having to deal with being a Wayne).

So maybe it's for the best because it could have been worse with something like that. Steph does deserve the spotlight and she should have been Batgirl like ten years ago when she was co-staring with Tim in his own book.

paulski

08-20-2009, 02:58 AM

Very happy to hear it was Steph after all. I look forward to reading this issue on the weekend. :smile:

C. Earl

08-20-2009, 03:32 AM

While Cassandra was technically my first Batgirl, I actually like the idea of Stephanie taking over a lot. Yes, she's clearly being set up as a wannabe who's way in over her head in this first issue, but I think that's what's going to make it interesting

It's been a long time since I've had Batgirl in my pull list...

Karl O'Neill

08-20-2009, 03:35 AM

Jmacq1

08-20-2009, 04:43 AM

Nothing against Cassandra, but it has been apparent for quite awhile that it wasn't going to be her. I don't see any conspiracy here though. That whole notion is ridiculous. I do believe that Didio prematurely canned her title years ago to make way for the Batwoman character (at the same time he wanted to kill off Nightwing because he thought he was redundant). And I agree that it was handled very poorly (the storyline in Robin).

But I also believe that the Batgirl mini-series earlier this year was a trial balloon to see if Cassie could still hold a book in today's market. The fact that many of her hardcore fans didn't like the mini is beside the point. The poor sales on this title are ultimately responsible for her removal from the role. The irony is that her many fans who refused to pick this up indirectly contributed to the decision.

So wait...you agree her story was "handled very poorly" but then blame the fans for not eagerly snapping up copies of a mini-series by the same writer that "handled her very poorly" to begin with?

nepenthes

08-20-2009, 05:53 AM

oh wow it's Spoiler :rolleyes:

who else would it have been

this was like picking Tim Drake for Red Robin

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 05:58 AM

So wait...you agree her story was "handled very poorly" but then blame the fans for not eagerly snapping up copies of a mini-series by the same writer that "handled her very poorly" to begin with?

Seriously. Anyone with common sense could have seen the flop coming miles away.

Funny that they canned Cass to make way for Batwoman, but now Batwoman has her own series and hey! so does a Batgirl. Amazing, no?

ScottyQuick

08-20-2009, 07:04 AM

I don't think any mini series is set to fail. Some people liked the batgirl mini by adam beechen, Some people didn't.

I am glad they are giving the character a rest for a while.

She will be back though.

See, that's the thing. Who here is a fan of the character liked it? I haven't heard of anyone who did.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 08:24 AM

The scans provided were supposed to show that she cares about the symbol, not the man. My argument is that perhaps there is no separation in her mind. That the symbol only means something because of the man behind it.

And also given that context, she may have become Batgirl in her own right, but only stayed Batgirl because of the ideal(s) that symbol represented to her.

that is true and she did not say she was not going to be a hero just a bat hero. so she can still pop up in some form or another.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 08:31 AM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9480563']Wasn't that mini poorly received because of the writer? What bearing does that have on the character herself? :confused:

The book with the character in the tittle did not sell. You can argue the quality being bad or good but at the end of the day if sales do not hit a certan level they are not going to keep pushing any character.

If she had been a less marque character like the question you can bench her and put her nthe background, but batgirl is a cash cow so if they think they can make more with Steph they will.

Honestly I am not going to buy it either way I gave the 1st issue a shot and it did nothing for me but if enought people buy it, Steph will be a bat for a long time.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 08:47 AM

The book with the character in the tittle did not sell. You can argue the quality being bad or good but at the end of the day if sales do not hit a certan level they are not going to keep pushing any character.

If she had been a less marque character like the question you can bench her and put her nthe background, but batgirl is a cash cow so if they think they can make more with Steph they will.

Honestly I am not going to buy it either way I gave the 1st issue a shot and it did nothing for me but if enought people buy it, Steph will be a bat for a long time.

Batgirl is a cash cow?

I doubt that, though she did sell better than Firestorm, Catwoman and Hawkman when her title was canned, and theirs was allowed to continue.

Yeah, Dan D doesn't have a bias at all :rolleyes:

Constantine Drakon

08-20-2009, 08:58 AM

The book with the character in the tittle did not sell.

Sold better than a number of books they kept on publishing. Sold better than a number of books they're publishing right now.

The mini did poorly in no small part because it was written by Beechen, and word of mouth (correctly) told people that it was incredibly badly written.

As trials go, it was the ultimate lose-lose situation. Don't buy it, Spoiler takes the Batgirl mantle. Buy it, DC walks away thinking Beechen's the right man to write a Batgirl ongoing.

Either way, we were utterly screwed.

Sizzle

08-20-2009, 09:16 AM

Can't wait to get my comics next week. Steph rocks!

celticguy

08-20-2009, 09:34 AM

Batgirl is a cash cow?

I doubt that, though she did sell better than Firestorm, Catwoman and Hawkman when her title was canned, and theirs was allowed to continue.

Yeah, Dan D doesn't have a bias at all :rolleyes:

as part of the bat family she is. there are a lot toys, lunch boxes, t shirts, halloween costumes etc you can sell if Batgirl is a solid b list character. Plus there are the movie tv possiblities for the character. If that is not happening with one batgirl you can try another.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 09:37 AM

The mini did poorly in no small part because it was written by Beechen, and word of mouth (correctly) told people that it was incredibly badly written.

.

fact remains the mini did not sell well. If it did the cass does not go away. Writers come and go popular characters endure and their books maintain.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 09:43 AM

fact remains the mini did not sell well. If it did the cass does not go away. Writers come and go popular characters endure and their books maintain.

And characters don't sell well when undermined by editors. So yeah

celticguy

08-20-2009, 09:56 AM

And characters don't sell well when undermined by editors. So yeah

if they have a large enough fan base they do. People do not collect whole runs of a character becasue they like every writer/artist to have a crack at them.

neverman

08-20-2009, 10:14 AM

as part of the bat family she is. there are a lot toys, lunch boxes, t shirts, halloween costumes etc you can sell if Batgirl is a solid b list character. Plus there are the movie tv possiblities for the character. If that is not happening with one batgirl you can try another.

Most of that merchandise is of the Barbara Gordon Batgirl, who is a solid B-list character. I'd put Cassandra on the C- or D-list. As for Steph, too soon to tell.(Not all Batgirls are equal, ya know.)

I read Batgirl #1 and thought it was pretty good. Steph is very similar to Barbara, just less skilled and wetter behind the ears. Steph's light and a lot more fun than Cassandra. While no one will top the Barbara Batgirl, Steph is a good choice.

As for Barbara, I get the distinct feeling something big will happen to her in Blackest Night. I hope she walks soon. I am tired of her being in the wheelchair. It's stupid and makes no in-universe sense. Other human heroes with no powers come back from the dead, yet one pretty redhead isn't allowed to walk again. I don't get it. The wheelchair is not what makes her interesting.

neverman

08-20-2009, 10:16 AM

I, too, got the impression that Steph may not be Batgirl for long. I suspect DC may kill her and have Barbara step back into the role.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 10:25 AM

Most of that merchandise is of the Barbara Gordon Batgirl, who is a solid B-list character. I'd put Cassandra on the C- or D-list. As for Steph, too soon to tell.(Not all Batgirls are equal, ya know.)

I read Batgirl #1 and thought it was pretty good. Steph is very similar to Barbara, just less skilled and wetter behind the ears. Steph's light and a lot more fun than Cassandra. While no one will top the Barbara Batgirl, Steph is a good choice.

As for Barbara, I get the distinct feeling something big will happen to her in Blackest Night. I hope she walks soon. I am tired of her being in the wheelchair. It's stupid and makes no in-universe sense. Other human heroes with no powers come back from the dead, yet one pretty redhead isn't allowed to walk again. I don't get it. The wheelchair is not what makes her interesting.

Yeah but is most of it still babs because Cass never took off or just because babs is more popular or reason other.

I like Babs in the chair not because it makes her more insteresting although Oracle is far more interesting than Batgirl, but she is unique. a hero with a disability that can still take care of herself.

Scott Taylor

08-20-2009, 11:34 AM

Realistically, I couldn't see Cass succeeding as a lunchbox character. Nuh uh. She's great, when written well, but her nature is not that of a character that appeals to soccer moms. Steph, however...

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 11:37 AM

celticguy

08-20-2009, 12:05 PM

White is right, eh?

right has nothing to do with it. If Cass made them a lot of money it would not matter what race she is.

I am not sure Steph can either FWIW.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 12:11 PM

right has nothing to do with it. If Cass made them a lot of money it would not matter what race she is.

I am not sure Steph can either FWIW.

She did make them money. More than Firestorm, Catwoman, and Hawkman. And her book still got canned.

Really, Cass' current problems are not the fault of the character, not by a long shot.

Scott Taylor

08-20-2009, 12:12 PM

Steph is more of a normal person than Cass. It has nothing to do with race. What cultural background are both of them, though, since its now come up in conversation?

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 12:17 PM

Steph is more of a normal person than Cass. It has nothing to do with race. What cultural background are both of them, though, since its now come up in conversation?

And normal matters how, exactly? Wolverine, Batman, Nightwing, the list of popular characters that are miles from normal is likely miles long.

Corrina

08-20-2009, 12:35 PM

Spiffy

08-20-2009, 12:43 PM

fact remains the mini did not sell well. If it did the cass does not go away. Writers come and go popular characters endure and their books maintain.

Well, except that Beechen DIDN'T go. He screwed up with the character, and then against massive fan protest was given ANOTHER shot and arguable screwed up again.

See, that's the thing. Who here is a fan of the character liked it? I haven't heard of anyone who did.
There's this ONE person named Newton.

Then again, there's no proof that Newton is actually a fan of the character, just evidence that he hates criticism of Adam Beechen.

And as with Beetlejuice, using the name, I'm sure Newt shall now appear... :biggrin:

The Xenos

08-20-2009, 12:51 PM

Realistically, I couldn't see Cass succeeding as a lunchbox character. Nuh uh. She's great, when written well, but her nature is not that of a character that appeals to soccer moms. Steph, however...Let's see.. Teen girl who got knocked up and whose father was a supervillian and continually is told to stop being a superhero. Or girl trained as an assassin by her assassin father who she rebelled against and joined the Bat-family with a cautious eye on her. Really, is either a lunchbox character?

Plus you cannot just say race isn't an issue. Why can't an Asian character be lunchbox material? This isn't even inventing an Asian character for the role. It's kicking out an established Asian character for one that is blonde hair blue eyed. Aside from Huntress there was no current Batgirl before Cass. Here Steph directly replaces her.

Anyway, I still hold out hope for Cass and Steph being in the book.

And I second calling BS in that Beechem Batgirl mini as being a lose lose situation. I am sick of people saying the character is all that matters and the writer is secondary. It's that type of BS mentality that has ruined the industry. The writing of the character is more important than the trademarked name and title. Or are we really that brainwashed by the higher ups? Hell, on a bigger scale this was a central problem with the Catwoman movie.

Scott Taylor

08-20-2009, 01:13 PM

And normal matters how, exactly? Wolverine, Batman, Nightwing, the list of popular characters that are miles from normal is likely miles long.

Time and again, I've seen the perception of normal matter to the buying public. And the voting public. Political candidates tend to "normalize" themselves for votes. If you don't see that, then I can't help you. And 'normal' is just a term I am using to describe a phenomena. There is hardly any set definition for it in society. But there is evidence that some things are more acceptable than others in the public view.

Why not tell me what you think about Cass as a marketable character?

Um....ahem.

Careful. You never know when a soccer mom will turn up.

Nothing against Soccer moms! I just went boogieboarding with two of them last week, one of which I am married to.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 01:16 PM

Well, except that Beechen DIDN'T go. He screwed up with the character, and then against massive fan protest was given ANOTHER shot and arguable screwed up again.

There's this ONE person named Newton.

Then again, there's no proof that Newton is actually a fan of the character, just evidence that he hates criticism of Adam Beechen.

And as with Beetlejuice, using the name, I'm sure Newt shall now appear... :biggrin:

you can blame the writer but the company has not reason to keep relaunching a character under new writers trying to find one that clicks given writers don't stay forever. If the character is not doing well shelve it, they tried a bunch of versions of Supergirl post crisis before settling on this one which I guess is doing ok. They are tying to create something with Batgirl.

I have no clue what the Newton stuff you are posting is about.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 01:20 PM

Time and again, I've seen the perception of normal matter to the buying public. And the voting public. Political candidates tend to "normalize" themselves for votes. If you don't see that, then I can't help you. And 'normal' is just a term I am using to describe a phenomena. There is hardly any set definition for it in society. But there is evidence that some things are more acceptable than others in the public view.

Why not tell me what you think about Cass as a marketable character?

...normalize?

This is fiction. Given the popularity of anime as a whole, and given the sales of Cass' series before DC started screwing her over, it's very easy to see how she could succeed.

The Jack Chan Adventures cartoon never needed a while male lead, Avatar takes from every culture but American while Naruto's about a kid being trained in a career where he's learning to kill.

All three were/are popular, to say nothing of other 'non normal' characters that enjoy popularity because how they differ from mainstream (House is an asshole, Gibbs from NCIS is a bad ass middle ager, etc).

DC just does not want to put the effort forward, because Cass does not conform to what they think the DCU should be. So they undermine her.

PS, when you reply, please spare me 'It's a business, all they care about is money'. The people in charge are not emotionless drones. They are people and people do not always act in a logical fashion.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 01:25 PM

Let's see.. Teen girl who got knocked up and whose father was a supervillian and continually is told to stop being a superhero. Or girl trained as an assassin by her assassin father who she rebelled against and joined the Bat-family with a cautious eye on her. Really, is either a lunchbox character?

Plus you cannot just say race isn't an issue. Why can't an Asian character be lunchbox material? This isn't even inventing an Asian character for the role. It's kicking out an established Asian character for one that is blonde hair blue eyed. Aside from Huntress there was no current Batgirl before Cass. Here Steph directly replaces her.

Anyway, I still hold out hope for Cass and Steph being in the book.

And I second calling BS in that Beechem Batgirl mini as being a lose lose situation. I am sick of people saying the character is all that matters and the writer is secondary. It's that type of BS mentality that has ruined the industry. The writing of the character is more important than the trademarked name and title. Or are we really that brainwashed by the higher ups? Hell, on a bigger scale this was a central problem with the Catwoman movie.

well the "lunch box" image is usually the g rated cartoon stuff so I don't think either would havethe back stroy drawn in any where?

No one said her being asian makes her not lunch box material The character of Batgirl is batgirl in a gimp mask might scare the kiddies though.

Character is more important than the writer in the regard a truely popular character can outlive even the worst writer. If a writer come in and a huge seller drops in sales, the writer gets canned. If a character trudges along and just does ok no matter who is on the book then I don't think any one writer can be blamed.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 01:26 PM

well the "lunch box" image is usually the g rated cartoon stuff so I don't think either would havethe back stroy drawn in any where?

No one said her being asian makes her not lunch box material The character of Batgirl is batgirl in a gimp mask might scare the kiddies though.

Character is more important than the writer in the regard a truely popular character can outlive even the worst writer. If a writer come in and a huge seller drops in sales, the writer gets canned. If a character trudges along and just does ok no matter who is on the book then I don't think any one writer can be blamed.

You realize that Steph is in that same gimp mask, yes? And that a costume is easily changed?

celticguy

08-20-2009, 01:29 PM

...normalize?

This is fiction. Given the popularity of anime as a whole, and given the sales of Cass' series before DC started screwing her over, it's very easy to see how she could succeed.

The Jack Chan Adventures cartoon never needed a while male lead, Avatar takes from every culture but American while Naruto's about a kid being trained in a career where he's learning to kill.

All three were/are popular, to say nothing of other 'non normal' characters that enjoy popularity because how they differ from mainstream (House is an asshole, Gibbs from NCIS is a bad ass middle ager, etc).

DC just does not want to put the effort forward, because Cass does not conform to what they think the DCU should be. So they undermine her.

PS, when you reply, please spare me 'It's a business, all they care about is money'. The people in charge are not emotionless drones. They are people and people do not always act in a logical fashion.

so your take is the powers that be at DC have a hugely successful character in Cass and despite all that they are throwing her aside after years of careful planning cuz she is an asian character and they don't like them?

Yeah that would be illogical, probably get you fired if such a succesful product just dried up too. Man what are they thinking.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 01:30 PM

You realize that Steph is in that same gimp mask, yes? And that a costume is easily changed?

not in batgirl 1 she is not and yeah except they did not change it.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 01:33 PM

so your take is the powers that be at DC have a hugely successful character in Cass and despite all that they are throwing her aside after years of careful planning cuz she is an asian character and they don't like them?

Yeah that would be illogical, probably get you fired if such a succesful product just dried up too. Man what are they thinking.

I never said she was hugely successful, did I? I simply pointed out that she enjoyed a level of success that was superior to characters who got to keep their series OYL.

And being illogical has never stopped businessmen before. Some even think that they can defy economic gravity. They're not robots, you know.

not in batgirl 1 she is not and yeah except they did not change it.

Again, the suit is easily changed, and it's a pretty flimsy reason to say that she's not marketable.

carabas

08-20-2009, 01:34 PM

When was the last time the people who make the comics and the people who make the lunch boxes even spoke to one another?

Does anybody seriously think that there will now be massive Steph-merchandising instead of retro-Babs merchandising, even if the new book is sucessfull?

Scott Taylor

08-20-2009, 01:37 PM

...normalize?

This is fiction. Given the popularity of anime as a whole, and given the sales of Cass' series before DC started screwing her over, it's very easy to see how she could succeed.

The Jack Chan Adventures cartoon never needed a while male lead, Avatar takes from every culture but American while Naruto's about a kid being trained in a career where he's learning to kill.

All three were/are popular, to say nothing of other 'non normal' characters that enjoy popularity because how they differ from mainstream (House is an asshole, Gibbs from NCIS is a bad ass middle ager, etc).

DC just does not want to put the effort forward, because Cass does not conform to what they think the DCU should be. So they undermine her.

PS, when you reply, please spare me 'It's a business, all they care about is money'. The people in charge are not emotionless drones. They are people and people do not always act in a logical fashion.

You're bringing up a number of different media outlets that I never discussed. Toons versus lunchboxes versus comics are entirely different discussions due to their differing target audiences.

If DC doesn't think Cass conforms with what they want the DCU to be, then isn't that their call? Its hard to agree with that premise, however, since you haven't laid out what you think they should see in her from a marketing standpoint.

Maybe its best that DC is not putting her in the spotlight. She could end up being raped and murdered or stuffed into a refrigerator otherwise.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 01:40 PM

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 01:44 PM

You're bringing up a number of different media outlets that I never discussed. Toons versus lunchboxes versus comics are entirely different discussions due to their differing target audiences.

If DC doesn't think Cass conforms with what they want the DCU to be, then isn't that their call? Its hard to agree with that premise, however, since you haven't laid out what you think they should see in her from a marketing standpoint.

Maybe its best that DC is not putting her in the spotlight. She could end up being raped and murdered or stuffed into a refrigerator otherwise.

Sigh...keep moving the goal post :rolleyes:

Wolverine, Batman, Nightwing, X-23, Gambit, Cable, Deadpool, Hercules, Thor, there is nothing normal about those characters and hey! They're popular.

Since DC wants some predetermination, faux Silver Age repeat, I'd say no. While yes it legally their right, their insular actions are part of the reason why comics are dying as a medium. To survive, they need to reach out and be diverse.

But instead, we get another blue eyed, blond haired sidekick. Not exactly ground breaking, that.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 01:45 PM

I never said she was hugely successful, did I? I simply pointed out that she enjoyed a level of success that was superior to characters who got to keep their series OYL.

And being illogical has never stopped businessmen before. Some even think that they can defy economic gravity. They're not robots, you know.

Again, the suit is easily changed, and it's a pretty flimsy reason to say that she's not marketable.

you should be happy then becasue if they are not keeping the most succesful products they will be fired and different people who might like you pet characters could get hired.

But if the bottom line continues to please the higer ups that ain't gonna happen.

Again the mask is different it is more of a hybird of what Dick wears and what Cass wore. you said it was the same it is not.

they could have altered her to make her more kiddie friendly I suppose it would seem strange but they did not and the costume she wore was not very super friendish.

zakter

08-20-2009, 01:45 PM

Isn't Kyle a regular in GL Corps? Isn't Wally a regular in Titans?

Kyle and Guy Gardner are both regulars in GLC

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 01:46 PM

you should be happy then becasue if they are not keeping the most succesful products they will be fired and different people who might like you pet characters could get hired.

But if the bottom line continues to please the higer ups that ain't gonna happen.

Again the mask is different it is more of a hybird of what Dick wears and what Cass wore. you said it was the same it is not.

they could have altered her to make her more kiddie friendly I suppose it would seem strange but they did not and the costume she wore was not very super friendish.

The buck stops with Dan D, you know that right?

Time Warner barely remembers that it owns a comicbook publisher.

And, again, they could have easily changed Cass' costume. That's not a legitmate excuse to hold her character back.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 01:50 PM

Sigh...keep moving the goal post :rolleyes:

Wolverine, Batman, Nightwing, X-23, Gambit, Cable, Deadpool, Hercules, Thor, there is nothing normal about those characters and hey! They're popular.

Since DC wants some predetermination, faux Silver Age repeat, I'd say no. While yes it legally their right, their insular actions are part of the reason why comics are dying as a medium. To survive, they need to reach out and be diverse.

But instead, we get another blue eyed, blond haired sidekick. Not exactly ground breaking, that.

I don't know if any one in a costume qualifies as normal as in real world normal anyway.

are you saying Cass is anywhere as popular as Wolverine or Batman cuz she aint I am not even sure she would be the equal of the rest of your list.

Yeah it is their marketing not the fact that their audience is dying out and younger readers are using different media that is killing media. they should be publishing books with small fanbases instead of streamling to maximise revenue and reduce costs.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 01:53 PM

The buck stops with Dan D, you know that right?

Time Warner barely remembers that it owns a comicbook publisher.

And, again, they could have easily changed Cass' costume. That's not a legitmate excuse to hold her character back.

you have no clue what you are talking about if you think Dido does not answer to any one. He has creative control but if he does not make the company money he is gone.

They did not change it though so that ship has sailed. I doubt it is what held her back over all, but it limited her appeal in the cartoon style markets.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 01:53 PM

I don't know if any one in a costume qualifies as normal as in real world normal anyway.

are you saying Cass is anywhere as popular as Wolverine or Batman cuz she aint I am not even sure she would be the equal of the rest of your list.

Yeah it is their marketing not the fact that their audience is dying out and younger readers are using different media that is killing media. they should be publishing books with small fanbases instead of streamling to maximise revenue and reduce costs.

The point of the list was to show that not every popular character needs to be an every-man ala Peter Parker. If there was a sure fire method to creating a popular character, they'd be cranking them out by the truckload.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 01:55 PM

Kyle and Guy Gardner are both regulars in GLC

They are 2 of the mainstays arn't they along with a few other well know GLs.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 01:55 PM

you have no clue what you are talking about if you think Dido does not answer to any one. He has creative control but if he does not make the company money he is gone.

They did not change it though so that ship has sailed. I doubt it is what held her back over all, but it limited her appeal in the cartoon style markets.

You really think anyone cares if he screws over one character? That he has any oversight in that regard?

He's assigned to take care of the big picture. He does that, and his higher-ups don't sweat the details. Professional business standards and comics are miles apart these days.

How exactly do you explain, then Cass' series being canned while lower selling titles were continued, using your logic?

celticguy

08-20-2009, 01:56 PM

The point of the list was to show that not every popular character needs to be an every-man ala Peter Parker. If there was a sure fire method to creating a popular character, they'd be cranking them out by the truckload.

right so you try one and if it does not catch fire you move on. Just what is happening here.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 01:59 PM

right so you try one and if it does not catch fire you move on. Just what is happening here.

No, this was more cutting the legs off a popular character and then acting shocked when she bleeds to death, to abuse a metaphor.

Corrina

08-20-2009, 01:59 PM

Nothing against Soccer moms! I just went boogieboarding with two of them last week, one of which I am married to.

My point is that I like Cass just fine and so did my kids.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 02:06 PM

You really think anyone cares if he screws over one character? That he has any oversight in that regard?

He's assigned to take care of the big picture. He does that, and his higher-ups don't sweat the details. Professional business standards and comics are miles apart these days.

How exactly do you explain, then Cass' series being canned while lower selling titles were continued, using your logic?

I can only assume you are trying to do some sort of devils advocate because you clearly do not know how a business works.

A character is a property by which they generate income which is why no character goes away for to long allowing the copyright to expire.

Do I think the higher up care if he "screws" a character? hmmm

Well they would care if that property was generating income and he replaced them with properties that generated less money. I know this would be a problem is his only reason for not using a profitable property was I hate that bitch.

He certainly could have pet properties that are borderline that he chooses over other borderline properties but that is a perk of being the boss. If there is little effect to the bottom line then he will get no heat for it.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 02:09 PM

No, this was more cutting the legs off a popular character and then acting shocked when she bleeds to death, to abuse a metaphor.

one that is not a metaphor

and B if she is popular she would still be around or will be back pretty quick, no matter how he feels about her. I doubt he loves every character they publish nor would I expect him too. I also am sure he had to can books he liked over the years.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 02:11 PM

I can only assume you are trying to do some sort of devils advocate because you clearly do not know how a business works.

A character is a property by which they generate income which is why no character goes away for to long allowing the copyright to expire.

Do I think the higher up care if he "screws" a character? hmmm

Well they would care if that property was generating income and he replaced them with properties that generated less money. I know this would be a problem is his only reason for not using a profitable property was I hate that bitch.

He certainly could have pet properties that are borderline that he chooses over other borderline properties but that is a perk of being the boss. If there is little effect to the bottom line then he will get no heat for it.

...how business works.

Have you been paying attention to comics at all? Because it's pretty clear to me that you haven't.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 02:14 PM

...how business works.

Have you been paying attention to comics at all? Because it's pretty clear to me that you haven't.

you mean how popular characters like Batman, Spiderman, Wolverine, Iron man and Superman are miked to death and lesser characters are left on the margin. Cuz that is what they do.

pariah-1972

08-20-2009, 02:15 PM

This was a hell of a whole lot better than i was expecting it to be.

I guess the focus is gonna be mainly on Stephanie with other Batgirls as a semi supporting cast.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 02:21 PM

you mean how popular characters like Batman, Spiderman, Wolverine, Iron man and Superman are miked to death and lesser characters are left on the margin. Cuz that is what they do.

Actually, I was referring to how writers can miss deadlines by months, how Gred Land can plagerize porn for one of Marvel's most popular and well known francises and no one says anothing. Comics and professional business standards have parted ways a long, long time ago.

So saying 'that's not good business' is a flimsy counterpoint, as comics haven't practiced good business for almost a decade now.

So yeah, Dan D can easily get away with undermining a midly popular character. There is no one who oversees his every move, especially when the company at large is running smooth.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 02:29 PM

Actually, I was referring to how writers can miss deadlines by months, how Gred Land can plagerize porn for one of Marvel's most popular and well known francises and no one says anothing. Comics and professional business standards have parted ways a long, long time ago.

So saying 'that's not good business' is a flimsy counterpoint, as comics haven't practiced good business for almost a decade now.

So yeah, Dan D can easily get away with undermining a midly popular character. There is no one who oversees his every move, especially when the company at large is running smooth.

again you prove you don't know what good business is. Good business is having product to sell when the creatives miss deadlines so there is something on the shelf.

Nobody said he had his every move questioned but if Cass is as popular as you say it will effect his bottom line so that will be questioned. However is she is a marginal character that produces marginal revenue he will not be. But a truely popular character would effect the botton line.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 02:35 PM

again you prove you don't know what good business is. Good business is having product to sell when the creatives miss deadlines so there is something on the shelf.

Nobody said he had his every move questioned but if Cass is as popular as you say it will effect his bottom line so that will be questioned. However is she is a marginal character that produces marginal revenue he will not be. But a truely popular character would effect the botton line.

...what?

You miss the dealines and you have no product to sell. Leaving the customers hanging is bad business in any business.

And I never said Cass was uber popular. Just moderately popular, who easily kept her own series and likely could have done more had she recieved any real promotion.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 02:38 PM

...what?

You miss the dealines and you have no product to sell. Leaving the customers hanging is bad business in any business.

And I never said Cass was uber popular. Just moderately popular, who easily kept her own series and likely could have done more had she recieved any real promotion.

Which is why it is the job of the boss to make sure there is product every week. So if one misses you can jumble the schedule and slide something else in to takes it's place on the shelf, that is excellent business practice, making sure you have product for the customer.

this is the first you have said moderatly popular that I recall seeing. I am not even sure what moderately popular is besides and oxymoron

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-20-2009, 02:38 PM

again you prove you don't know what good business is. Good business is having product to sell when the creatives miss deadlines so there is something on the shelf.

Nobody said he had his every move questioned but if Cass is as popular as you say it will effect his bottom line so that will be questioned. However is she is a marginal character that produces marginal revenue he will not be. But a truely popular character would effect the botton line.

Then could you explain why Cain's book was canned while DC kept pushing less successful properties?

Hell, didn't her book outsell Robin and Catwoman's?

pariah-1972

08-20-2009, 02:43 PM

I keep forgetting how many hardcore Cass fans there are out there...

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 02:45 PM

Which is why it is the job of the boss to make sure there is product every week. So if one misses you can jumble the schedule and slide something else in to takes it's place on the shelf, that is excellent business practice, making sure you have product for the customer.

this is the first you have said moderatly popular that I recall seeing. I am not even sure what moderately popular is besides and oxymoron

Moderately popular is an oxymoron? So everyone's a star or a wash out, right?

Really, the more we talk, the more I'm convinced that you're just reading bullet points from a book and have never once actually looked at a business in depth.

People make mistakes, hold irrational grudges and crap all the time but to listen to you tell it, that never happens because people working in business are nothing more than drones.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 02:46 PM

I keep forgetting how many hardcore Cass fans there are out there...

There are more than a few of us. Most people would find that telling.

pariah-1972

08-20-2009, 02:57 PM

There are more than a few of us. Most people would find that telling.I don't know what you mean by tellingbut it obviously means that the character has struck a chord with a lot of people.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 03:01 PM

Moderately popular is an oxymoron? So everyone's a star or a wash out, right?

Really, the more we talk, the more I'm convinced that you're just reading bullet points from a book and have never once actually looked at a business in depth.

People make mistakes, hold irrational grudges and crap all the time but to listen to you tell it, that never happens because people working in business are nothing more than drones.

nope there are varying degrees between Star and wash out. The stars are the popular ones, meaning approved of by many.

Mistakes of course they happen and maybe this is one and the new version will sink to bottom dwelling numbers. If that happens I would expect Cass or Babs to take back the suit.

It is not to different from what happened to Supergirl over the years, except you see it as some vast conspiracy against a fictional character.
Grudges against people yeah but were are talking about fictional characters not real people. What kind of a loon would have a grudge against a make believe character. How do you even nourish that grudge a dart board?

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 03:05 PM

nope there are varying degrees between Star and wash out. The stars are the popular ones, meaning approved of by many.

Mistakes of course they happen and maybe this is one and the new version will sink to bottom dwelling numbers. If that happens I would expect Cass or Babs to take back the suit.

It is not to different from what happened to Supergirl over the years, except you see it as some vast conspiracy against a fictional character.
Grudges against people yeah but were are talking about fictional characters not real people. What kind of a loon would have a grudge against a make believe character. How do you even nourish that grudge a dart board?

Ask Bendis, or Dan D. Bendis has admitted a dislike of Tigra, and used her as a punching bag. Dan D loathes Slobo from Young Justice, and went so far as to say Peter David damaged Lobo's character by creating him.

You realize that people aren't completely logical creatures, right? We ain't Vulcans.

celticguy

08-20-2009, 03:12 PM

Ask Bendis, or Dan D. Bendis has admitted a dislike of Tigra, and used her as a punching bag. Dan D loathes Slobo from Young Justice, and went so far as to say Peter David damaged Lobo's character by creating him.

You realize that people aren't completely logical creatures, right? We ain't Vulcans.

yeah vulcans aren't real either.

So he hates tigra so what he is not canceling a book with her in it because of it. Nor is he damaging a property hurting the bottom line (unless Tigra generates a lot more than I would think).

I have no idea what Slobo is and can;t say I want to know so unless there is a huge Slobo revenue stream going untapped I can't say it is an invalid opinion.

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-20-2009, 03:16 PM

yeah vulcans aren't real either.

So he hates tigra so what he is not canceling a book with her in it because of it. Nor is he damaging a property hurting the bottom line (unless Tigra generates a lot more than I would think).

I have no idea what Slobo is and can;t say I want to know so unless there is a huge Slobo revenue stream going untapped I can't say it is an invalid opinion.

But then again...

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9483451']Then could you explain why Cain's book was canned while DC kept pushing less successful properties?

Hell, didn't her book outsell Robin and Catwoman's?

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 03:18 PM

yeah vulcans aren't real either.

So he hates tigra so what he is not canceling a book with her in it because of it. Nor is he damaging a property hurting the bottom line (unless Tigra generates a lot more than I would think).

I have no idea what Slobo is and can;t say I want to know so unless there is a huge Slobo revenue stream going untapped I can't say it is an invalid opinion.

You have an amazing ability to miss the point. Really, it's a talent!

celticguy

08-20-2009, 03:25 PM

You have an amazing ability to miss the point. Really, it's a talent!

really you think you have made one?

This conspiracy you see of real people having grudges and vendettas against fictional people is a point?

celticguy

08-20-2009, 03:26 PM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9483643']But then again...

what you asked questions and need me to supply your answers?

break it down how much revenue did the Batgirl property generate vs. the unnamed ones that are still around assuming they are.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 03:56 PM

really you think you have made one?

This conspiracy you see of real people having grudges and vendettas against fictional people is a point?

It's called humanity, and people holding stupid opinions and stances for no reason. I have the whole of history behind me. All you have is 'logic', which as a whole has rarely been adhered to, as a society or on a personal basis.

what you asked questions and need me to supply your answers?

break it down how much revenue did the Batgirl property generate vs. the unnamed ones that are still around assuming they are.

Lets do the math, shall we?

Batgirl book with Cass: Money.

No Batgirl book: No money

So, good business sense and logic would state that there's no reason for her series to get canned in the first place. So, why did it happen?

Batman was taken

08-20-2009, 03:58 PM

I gotta find my tinfoil hat, quick....

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 04:02 PM

I gotta find my tinfoil hat, quick....

I burned it. The Hive Mind will not be denied!

celticguy

08-20-2009, 04:13 PM

It's called humanity, and people holding stupid opinions and stances for no reason. I have the whole of history behind me. All you have is 'logic', which as a whole has rarely been adhered to, as a society or on a personal basis.
Lets do the math, shall we?
Batgirl book with Cass: Money.
No Batgirl book: No money
So, good business sense and logic would state that there's no reason for her series to get canned in the first place. So, why did it happen?

What was the stupid opinion held and show your work show the stupid opinion so we know you are not just a conspiracy nutcase.

Batgirl book with Cass some money, a profit margin of how much? you have not shown me that yet?

Books that were published since Batgirl was canceled some have done well others not so much. How many of them have produced more revenue than Batgirl did, I don't have those figures and neither do you. I just have no problem believein they had reason to think they could do better with something else and you find it easier to think the boss just has it in for a fictional person.

pariah-1972

08-20-2009, 04:58 PM

I hope they bring back Cass with a cool new costume and name.

Honestly thought she was too cool to be a Batgirl anyways.

MTL76

08-20-2009, 05:25 PM

Morrison and Quitely's recently started run on Batman has inspired me to dabble in the other Bat titles, but I'm not a full-on Bat fan, though I usually know what's going on in Batman-verse.

I thought issue #1 was pretty good. It didn't bowl me over, but it was a good intro issue to set up the character for readers who only know her on a superficial basis, like moi. They're clearly going for a "Peter Parker" type vibe: Steph's a student leading a double life, her mom doesn't know, her grades are suffering for it, burning both ends of the candle at once, trying to live up to the standards of more established heroes (in this case Cassandra Cain),etc. Or at least that's what it reminded me of. Which is a good thing, I think.

As for the whole "conspiracy against Cain" angle, while I don't buy it, I was crying the same thing when they replaced Cap with Bucky, so I feel for you all. :wink: Then again, I was never a fan of Puckett's Batgirl, though I did admire his telling single issue stories that also had multi-issue themes during his run. Regarding whether DC editorial is out to get her, I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle of the stated opinions. DC is a business, and the bottom line is king. However, it's a business run by people, and I could certainly see an editor in chief shelving a character if they don't like them/think they're not line with where they want to take the overall shared universe... unless that character's very successful.

Captain Jim

08-20-2009, 05:41 PM

you were surprised at Steph as Batgirl? Really?

Not surprised, really. As I said, I've thought she was the most likely pick for quite a while. But I didn't think it was "for sure" either, unlike Dick and Tim.

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9480563']Wasn't that mini poorly received because of the writer? What bearing does that have on the character herself? :confused:

Bottom line is that the last Cassandra series didn't sell.

I thought Dixon got fired or blacklisted from DC or something? Pretty sad, considering he created, or at least gave life to almost all of these 'supporting characters' that are getting solo books.

He was, but before all that happened, he was scheduled to do a Batgirl story in Detective, once upon a time.

So wait...you agree her story was "handled very poorly" but then blame the fans for not eagerly snapping up copies of a mini-series by the same writer that "handled her very poorly" to begin with?

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just saying that the poor sales on that mini are what put the nails in her coffin, so to speak.

oh wow it's Spoiler :rolleyes:

who else would it have been

this was like picking Tim Drake for Red Robin

I disagree. I really thought it was going to be Babs for a long time. And other candidates like Wendy and Misfit had also been suggested. And I really wouldn't have been shocked had it been a totally new character.

The book with the character in the title did not sell. You can argue the quality being bad or good but at the end of the day if sales do not hit a certain level they are not going to keep pushing any character.

Exactly.

I, too, got the impression that Steph may not be Batgirl for long. I suspect DC may kill her and have Barbara step back into the role.

I really don't think so. Read the interview with the writer in Newsarama.

I keep forgetting how many hardcore Cass fans there are out there...

I'm not sure if there are really all that many of them or if it's a small number who are extremely vocal.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 05:46 PM

What was the stupid opinion held and show your work show the stupid opinion so we know you are not just a conspiracy nutcase.

Batgirl book with Cass some money, a profit margin of how much? you have not shown me that yet?

Books that were published since Batgirl was canceled some have done well others not so much. How many of them have produced more revenue than Batgirl did, I don't have those figures and neither do you. I just have no problem believein they had reason to think they could do better with something else and you find it easier to think the boss just has it in for a fictional person.

Wow, looks like you're torn between insulting me and refuting me, and tried to go for both. I am impressed with your ability to butcher the English language, though.

To wit, Cass' book OYL sold about 27 K issues. That's enough to justify a series and 27K more books sold when her series was cancelled. Books selling less, like Hawkman, Catwoman and Firestorm were continued and revamped, though all were eventually cancelled.

According to your logic, someone should have been fired for supporting lower selling books while killing one that substained itself. No one ever was.

Fan outrage was what brought Cass back, and Dan D undermined Cass by assigning her mini series to a writer who was loathed for screwing her up in the first place. Simple common sense could foresee it's failure.

As for your comment that a writer couldn't possibly hate a fictional character, I'd say it shows a complete and utter lack of understanding with regards to human nature that should be painfully obvious.

After all, we all know that some writers completely love some of their creations, or creations they write. Mary Sue is the common term. Jim Starlin's favoritism towards Thanos is the best example. How many times has Starlin reconned Thanos' defeats into something that favors the Mad Titan?

Obviously, the reverse is true with some writers. Bendis with Tigra, Joe Q with Speedball are a few examples from Marvel. At DC, Keith Giffen chose to write Countdown in part because he could hurt Karate Kid, a character he'd already killed twice.

For Dan D, screwing over Cass would be even more effortless. Give a writer a mandate and if or when that fails and fan outrage peaks, give the assignment of writing her to a writer who is disliked on the character. In total, that would probably take less than five minutes for him to do.

It wouldn't be entirely rational, but human beings aren't rational by nature, and no one looks over his shoulder. Screwing over one character, out of hundreds, isn't hard for the EiC. Took less to kill Karate Kid 3 times.

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-20-2009, 05:51 PM

Bottom line is that the last Cassandra series didn't sell.

There's been a ton of Spider-Man books (and some badly written I might add) that haven't sold well. Does that mean Spider-Man isn't a viable character? :confused:

Hell, Hal Jordan went crazy, and was then killed off and replaced by Kyle Rayner. Does that mean that Hal Jordan is not a viable character? (And I'm a Kyle fan!)

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 05:59 PM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9484401']There's been a ton of Spider-Man books (and some badly written I might add) that haven't sold well. Does that mean Spider-Man isn't a viable character? :confused:

Hell, Hal Jordan went crazy, and was then killed off and replaced by Kyle Rayner. Does that mean that Hal Jordan is not a viable character? (And I'm a Kyle fan!)

Lets not forget that Nightwing was supposed to die in Infinate Crisis, yet is rocking out in the Bat titles currently.

I am simply amazed the amount of faith people are placing in the Editors and company as a whole to judge what is and what is not good business.

Captain Jim

08-20-2009, 06:03 PM

To wit, Cass' book OYL sold about 27 K issues. That's enough to justify a series and 27K more books sold when her series was cancelled. Books selling less, like Hawkman, Catwoman and Firestorm were continued and revamped, though all were eventually cancelled.

According to your logic, someone should have been fired for supporting lower selling books while killing one that substained itself. No one ever was.

I think you're being a little naive here. There's no exact formula for when a book is canceled. Sometimes they think a new character needs a little more time and exposure. Sometimes they hope trying a revamp can make a difference. The bottom line is, as you yourself said, all of these were eventually canceled when sales didn't pick up.

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9484401']There's been a ton of Spider-Man books (and some badly written I might add) that haven't sold well. Does that mean Spider-Man isn't a viable character? :confused:

Spider-Man has always been a character whose books have sold well. Sometimes there have been too many books and the market has been over-saturated, but that's a horse of a different color.

Hell, Hal Jordan went crazy, and was then killed off and replaced by Kyle Rayner. Does that mean that Hal Jordan is not a viable character? (And I'm a Kyle fan!)

That's exactly what it meant at that time. It's precisely why he was killed off and replaced.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 06:13 PM

I think you're being a little naive here. There's no exact formula for when a book is canceled. Sometimes they think a new character needs a little more time and exposure. Sometimes they hope trying a revamp can make a difference. The bottom line is, as you yourself said, all of these were eventually canceled when sales didn't pick up.

Oh, I know that. But I'm not being naive, everyone else is, when they refuse to consider the possibility of editor bias.

xnef1025

08-20-2009, 06:30 PM

I can see the validity of the designed to fail arguments when it comes to Cass's miniseries. You say you planned this mini as a way to "test the waters" for a character, but immediately alienate the die hard fans that you depend on putting out the good word of mouth to draw in converts by giving the project to the guy they blame for frakking up the character to begin with. Not really a fair test run.

All that aside, I like seeing Steph as Batgirl. Hope Cass gets some future time to shine again, but having that "Parker vibe" that MTL mentioned is a good thing. The rest of the Bat family already spends more time as their alter egos than themselves, so having a bit more balance in one of them might be a nice change of pace.

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-20-2009, 06:36 PM

Spider-Man has always been a character whose books have sold well. Sometimes there have been too many books and the market has been over-saturated, but that's a horse of a different color.

After the success of Amazing Fantasy #15, Spider-Man has received many chances to succeed or fail. The thing with Cass is, she was given one poorly written and negatively reviewed (with negative word of mouth before it even went on sale) mini that didn't even match the sales of her ongoing series as a chance to "gauge" her viability. Why judge her viability on a book that was poorly received before it even saw print?

And again, why did that mini sell so poorly compared to Cass' ongoing?

That's exactly what it meant at that time. It's precisely why he was killed off and replaced.

What makes the Hal character back then different from the one now? There's something to be said about creator involvement. I'll admit, I myself didn't really "get" Hal and still don't, and I also like Kyle better. But I still recognize the viability of the character. And today, thanks to certain creator involvement (i.e. Geoff Johns), Green Lantern is beating out Wonder Woman as DC's third most successful solo franchise.

Captain Jim

08-20-2009, 07:42 PM

Btw, on Chuck Dixon's messageboard, Gail Simone mentioned that she was originally scheduled to write this book, but had to bow out.

The Cool Thatguy

08-20-2009, 07:44 PM

Btw, on Chuck Dixon's messageboard, Gail Simone mentioned that she was originally scheduled to write this book, but had to bow out.

Yup. According to her, writing Cass as a positive Christian character caused a bigger splash than turning her into a villain.

Captain Jim

08-20-2009, 07:54 PM

No, I mean, she was originally scheduled to write this current Batgirl title. At least that's how I took it.

joel221

08-20-2009, 08:13 PM

Bottom line is that the last Cassandra series didn't sell.

Jim, you're certainly correct that this is the bottom line. But in production, every good business owner is constantly examining why the bottom line is the bottom line. If Superman comics dropped dramatically in readership where previously they had been at a profitable level with little to no marketing, you'd want to ask whether it was something you did in production. You would not just stop producing Superman titles because you assumed the market was gone.

In other words, if Batgirl's sales on her own series were insufficient (maybe you would say they were), then she never really was a profitable character without additional marketing. In that case, if DC needed a character who could garner larger sales with similarly little marketing, it would makes sense to move on. If Cassandra was a consistently profitable character until her series ended despite a lack of marketing and then was no longer so, DC should have been asking if they were doing something wrong. From an outside perspective, it doesn't seem as though they did this very vigorously, if at all.

I'm not sure if there are really all that many of them or if it's a small number who are extremely vocal.

The Batgirl polls that had the largest number of respondents consistently placed Cass as the favorite for the role or very close to Babs. Maybe the polls are entirely hogwash, but the number of respondents had reached the thousands in both polls, making that less likely. Even if this was not representative of all comic readers, it still means many people supported her character. More troublingly, this feels like one in a long line of digs you've been taking at fans of Cassandra. I wish you would stop, even if they frustrate you with their overstated dislike of DC editorial and Adam Beechen's writing.

Vic Vega

08-20-2009, 09:52 PM

Crap, to this day I don't even see why Cassie was/is popular at all..

She started out an autistic uberfigter in a gimp mask, for gosh sake.

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-20-2009, 09:59 PM

Crap, to this day I don't even see why Cassie was/is popular at all..

She started out an autistic uberfigter in a gimp mask, for gosh sake.

Same way I don't get Hal Jordan (but I've warmed up to him recently thanks to Geoff). Still, he has fans.

d newton

08-20-2009, 10:29 PM

But I'm not being naive, everyone else is, when they refuse to consider the possibility of editor bias/
Who's "they"? :tongue:

pariah-1972

08-20-2009, 11:18 PM

"Editor Bias" sounds strangely like a conspiracy theory to me.

Aiguille

08-20-2009, 11:59 PM

Well, this series has people talking, that's for sure. As for myself, I'm not sure how to peg this book. After some five years in comics, it remains difficult for me to discern the extent to which a book is yolked to the vicissitudes of editorial mandate. Do I look at this book as a continuation of policy that I find unlikable? Do I try to disentangle the work itself from those predecessors that birthed the problems Miller has inherited?

I have mixed feelings about it being Stephanie. I find her likable as a Bat-family member, and this seems a to be natural outgrowth of a thoroughly inorganic plot point. (Tim's uncharacteristically patrician 'tude towards Stephanie about how she shouldn't be a superhero, I mean. What right does he have, after basically stalking Batman and deliberately insinuating himself in his life because Batman needs a Robin?)

However, this doesn't change the fact that a blonde white girl has supplanted a biracial Asian-American with a disability who managed to carry her own book. I particularly lament the off-panel gloss-over of Cassandra's aphasia-related learning disabilities. I'd liked to have seen her deal with them on her terms. No matter how close Steph and Cass were, and no matter how much I suspect Cass will eventually be sharing the role, these things are still discomfiting.

Additionally, I have qualms about the bizarre abruptness with which Cass abandons her identity. I much preferred her costumeless positioning at the close of her last ongoing, regardless of how badly the aftermath was handled. However, my reasoning may be less involved than others. Though people have posted that page from her series upthread to explain that she fought for the symbol, not Bruce, I don't consider it the last word on the subject. Her behavior towards him (the daughterly intimacy in the aftermath of battle coupled with the complaint about her father's lack of affection) suggests at least a little investment in him as its bearer and as a surrogate father figure, however distant. I could see her feeling some grief, especially if she had chance to see or hear about Jason's gun-slinging dishonor of the bat-symbol. (Did she? Battle for the Cowl was off my radar.) Also, keep in mind that the cited page contains its own errors. Cain was shown as being physically affectionate with his daughter on occasion, horrific abuser though he was. Didn't he even try to hug her after her first kill?

No, my issues are more prosaic. She's stripping to her skivvies in a thunderstorm and bolting on a friend while being perversely obscurantist. (I hope whoever writes Cass remembers that, though she is taciturn, she's American born and raised, thus her sometimes-cryptic speech patterns are not due to her being a stereotypical Mysterious Asian Mentor. I've had enough of her as Dragon Lady.)

Also, she left Steph a costume that, in all likelihood would not fit her. Cass has, with some consistency, been drawn as quite petite in comparison to Spoiler and the Bats. All women do not have identical figures! If Steph had thanked her lucky stars for high-school home-ec and years of self-tailored costumes rather than pondered a sewing class after-the-fact, I'd be happier.

On to cranky-Babs, fresh off a mini I avoided by judging a book by its cover. (Bras are kinda necessary when you use a manual chair, Babs! Stuff bounces, when you self-propel.) I see she's developed some anger issues and a propensity towards violence in that book. I wish her anger wasn't so generic. Like others in the bat-clan, she's a control-freak, so why isn't she heading up the Birds or the new Network-thing or co-opting the rudderless Outsiders instead of stewing over Gotham's stagnancy? Coordinating team efforts would yield better results than a one-woman mugger beating spree, as good as that makes her feel. And since she's one of the few heroes with the resources to direct entire teams, she should be a little more proactive, yes?

Still, there are things to like here. Leslie. The Commish. Steph's Mom and Steph's general spunkiness. Doodling during lecture. Bab's omniscient prescence over waffles. Waffles in and of themselves. I'll give this a little rope, if only because I wanna see how they're setting things up, and I miss seeing these girls.

Incidentally, I've been sitting out some of the Bat-books. Does the Cluemaster know Steph's alive? Last I recall he was antagonizing the Bat-family because of righteous anger over his daughter's death, and his face had been mutilated. Maybe he needs a new sense of purpose and direction? He certainly needs a new costume, preferably with a face-mask. Might I suggest something in eggplant? It'd certainly be a different spin on the "legacy hero" concept.

Blight

08-21-2009, 12:39 AM

Crap, to this day I don't even see why Cassie was/is popular at all..

She started out an autistic uberfigter in a gimp mask, for gosh sake.

No she didn't actually. That was Huntress who paraded around with the costume before she was fired from the role by Batman. Cass was introduced a month before she got the costume.

Blight

08-21-2009, 12:40 AM

Btw, on Chuck Dixon's messageboard, Gail Simone mentioned that she was originally scheduled to write this book, but had to bow out.

Link please. :biggrin: And wow did this thread just balloon since last I was here O_o.

The Cool Thatguy

08-21-2009, 04:34 AM

"Editor Bias" sounds strangely like a conspiracy theory to me.

Because human bias is so rare?

pariah-1972

08-21-2009, 05:14 AM

Because human bias is so rare?

Why would the editors want to hurt or ruin a fictional character ? if they somehow hated her why would they work on her book?

The Cool Thatguy

08-21-2009, 05:17 AM

Why would the editors want to hurt or ruin a fictional character ? if they somehow hated her why would they work on her book?

Ask Karate Kid.

pariah-1972

08-21-2009, 05:34 AM

Ask Karate Kid.Do you have his number or e-mail address?

AJM

08-21-2009, 05:51 AM

No she didn't actually. That was Huntress who paraded around with the costume before she was fired from the role by Batman. Cass was introduced a month before she got the costume.

...and then started her career as Batgirl as an autistic uberfigter in a gimp mask.

I've never liked Cass and i couldn't care less about whoever Stephanie is. And after reading the first issue, i'm happy to report that there's absolutely no reason to be interested in them now. Money saved!

The Cool Thatguy

08-21-2009, 06:08 AM

Do you have his number or e-mail address?

Sure. It's Iprovedmypointcompletely @ batmanforums.com

pariah-1972

08-21-2009, 06:13 AM

Sure. It's Iprovedmypointcompletely @ batmanforums.comSo you think you proved your point completely because you said "ask Karate Kid" ? Honestly i don't even know what happened to him for sure after the whole Lightening Saga but i don't think you can prove your point that the editors hate Karate Kid unless you can reference one of the editors admitting they don't like him or tell me what happened to him and how that shows the editors don't like him?

The Cool Thatguy

08-21-2009, 06:23 AM

So you think you proved your point completely because you said "ask Karate Kid" ? Honestly i don't even know what happened to him for sure after the whole Lightening Saga but i don't think you can prove your point that the editors hate Karate Kid unless you can reference one of the editors admitting they don't like him or tell me what happened to him and how that shows the editors don't like him?

http://www.comicmix.com/news/2008/03/31/interview-keith-giffen-on-the-final-weeks-of-countdown-to-final-crisis/

Speaks for itself, really. Though, again, pattern recognition is all ya need.

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-21-2009, 06:40 AM

Why would the editors want to hurt or ruin a fictional character ? if they somehow hated her why would they work on her book?

Young Justice comes to mind, (further) angering PAD in the process.

Hasn't Quesada also stated a dislike for Speedball.

celticguy

08-21-2009, 07:45 AM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9484401']There's been a ton of Spider-Man books (and some badly written I might add) that haven't sold well. Does that mean Spider-Man isn't a viable character? :confused:

Hell, Hal Jordan went crazy, and was then killed off and replaced by Kyle Rayner. Does that mean that Hal Jordan is not a viable character? (And I'm a Kyle fan!)

in those books or at that time they were not as an over all property that can create income they are very viable.

celticguy

08-21-2009, 07:47 AM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9486662']Young Justice comes to mind, (further) angering PAD in the process.

Hasn't Quesada also stated a dislike for Speedball.

Their is a huge difference between someone liking for disliking a character and them hatching conspiracy to "undermine" a character so that it appears to be useless.

carabas

08-21-2009, 07:48 AM

in those books pr at that time they were not as an over all property that can create income they are very viable.
Are there words missing from this?

celticguy

08-21-2009, 07:54 AM

Wow, looks like you're torn between insulting me and refuting me, and tried to go for both. I am impressed with your ability to butcher the English language, though.

To wit, Cass' book OYL sold about 27 K issues. That's enough to justify a series and 27K more books sold when her series was cancelled. Books selling less, like Hawkman, Catwoman and Firestorm were continued and revamped, though all were eventually cancelled.

According to your logic, someone should have been fired for supporting lower selling books while killing one that substained itself. No one ever was.

Fan outrage was what brought Cass back, and Dan D undermined Cass by assigning her mini series to a writer who was loathed for screwing her up in the first place. Simple common sense could foresee it's failure.

As for your comment that a writer couldn't possibly hate a fictional character, I'd say it shows a complete and utter lack of understanding with regards to human nature that should be painfully obvious.

After all, we all know that some writers completely love some of their creations, or creations they write. Mary Sue is the common term. Jim Starlin's favoritism towards Thanos is the best example. How many times has Starlin reconned Thanos' defeats into something that favors the Mad Titan?

Obviously, the reverse is true with some writers. Bendis with Tigra, Joe Q with Speedball are a few examples from Marvel. At DC, Keith Giffen chose to write Countdown in part because he could hurt Karate Kid, a character he'd already killed twice.

For Dan D, screwing over Cass would be even more effortless. Give a writer a mandate and if or when that fails and fan outrage peaks, give the assignment of writing her to a writer who is disliked on the character. In total, that would probably take less than five minutes for him to do.

It wouldn't be entirely rational, but human beings aren't rational by nature, and no one looks over his shoulder. Screwing over one character, out of hundreds, isn't hard for the EiC. Took less to kill Karate Kid 3 times.

You are not answeringthe question, ok say it was at 27k when they cancel order came down. How was it trending at the time? What were the projections for the future? What other revenues is the property generating in any other media?

Those same questions and others would have to answered about Batgirl and any other tittles you want to compare it to.

There is a difference between prefering one character over another and actively working to weaken a property your company owns.

AiyokuSama

08-21-2009, 08:12 AM

Their is a huge difference between someone liking for disliking a character and them hatching conspiracy to "undermine" a character so that it appears to be useless.

Out of curiosity, why does someone disliking and not doing their best by a character have to equal "conspiracy"?

The Cool Thatguy

08-21-2009, 08:15 AM

You are not answeringthe question, ok say it was at 27k when they cancel order came down. How was it trending at the time? What were the projections for the future? What other revenues is the property generating in any other media?

Those same questions and others would have to answered about Batgirl and any other tittles you want to compare it to.

There is a difference between prefering one character over another and actively working to weaken a property your company owns.

I've answered every question you posed to the best of my ability. If I missed anything, it's because of poor sentence structure.

Batgirl's series, when canned, was at an up tic. Bringing in more money and critical praise.

Other properties are really a non factor. Babs is the Batgirl that the cartoons has used, and it's been that way since before Cass came around. Cartoons and comics rarely reflect each other and in this day and age, don't need to.

All the titles that were kept and revamped, only Hawkgirl was trying to capitalize on a cartoon at the time and did so poorly. Firestorm and Catwoman didn't have that, nor did other low selling titles.

And really, Cass' lack of visability in other areas doesn't help your case.

First, comics rarely reflect the cartoons and movies. Even when they cancelled Young Justice for Teen Titans, the casts were fairly far apart in members and style.

Second, as Cass isn't a high earner, he can get away with screwing her over with no blow back from higher ups. Not like he's hurting the bottom like in an obvious manner.

Their is a huge difference between someone liking for disliking a character and them hatching conspiracy to "undermine" a character so that it appears to be useless.

Ye Gods, do your preconceived notions ever approach reality?

I'm not accusing Dan D of hatching some X-Files type plot against Cass. I just think that, when the subject comes up in discussion long term, he works against her.

Cass is one of hundreds of characters. For an editor like him, it'd be easy to undermine her. He doesn't need permission to hand down a mandate that she be written as a villain. He doesn't need a committee's permission to assign Beechen to write her mini series.

Those are two actions that would be effortless for him, probably taking less than ten minutes total.

Truth be told, the more I think about it, the more I find this insistance that a writer 'would never hate/hold a grudge against a fictional character' as insightful as people who say 'The world is flat'.

Three names for ya: Garth Ennis. Wolverine.

The Cool Thatguy

08-21-2009, 08:20 AM

Out of curiosity, why does someone disliking and not doing their best by a character have to equal "conspiracy"?

Because everyone always does their best in a smiling and noble manner in business!

...guess Celticguy missed the fact that we're in a recession because so many businessmen thought they could defy economic *gravity*.

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-21-2009, 08:24 AM

in those books or at that time they were not as an over all property that can create income they are very viable.

Again, what's the difference between those characters now and at during those points in time? Once again, it's the creators. Do you think Hal Jordan would be successful as he is now if not for Geoff Johns?

Out of curiosity, why does someone disliking and not doing their best by a character have to equal "conspiracy"?

Same thing I'm wondering. :confused:

celticguy

08-21-2009, 09:13 AM

I've answered every question you posed to the best of my ability. If I missed anything, it's because of poor sentence structure.

Batgirl's series, when canned, was at an up tic. Bringing in more money and critical praise.

Other properties are really a non factor. Babs is the Batgirl that the cartoons has used, and it's been that way since before Cass came around. Cartoons and comics rarely reflect each other and in this day and age, don't need to.

All the titles that were kept and revamped, only Hawkgirl was trying to capitalize on a cartoon at the time and did so poorly. Firestorm and Catwoman didn't have that, nor did other low selling titles.
And really, Cass' lack of visability in other areas doesn't help your case.
First, comics rarely reflect the cartoons and movies. Even when they cancelled Young Justice for Teen Titans, the casts were fairly far apart in members and style.
Second, as Cass isn't a high earner, he can get away with screwing her over with no blow back from higher ups. Not like he's hurting the bottom like in an obvious manner.

Ye Gods, do your preconceived notions ever approach reality?
I'm not accusing Dan D of hatching some X-Files type plot against Cass. I just think that, when the subject comes up in discussion long term, he works against her.
Cass is one of hundreds of characters. For an editor like him, it'd be easy to undermine her. He doesn't need permission to hand down a mandate that she be written as a villain. He doesn't need a committee's permission to assign Beechen to write her mini series.
Those are two actions that would be effortless for him, probably taking less than ten minutes total.
Truth be told, the more I think about it, the more I find this insistance that a writer 'would never hate/hold a grudge against a fictional character' as insightful as people who say 'The world is flat'.
Three names for ya: Garth Ennis. Wolverine.

you have answered nothing because you cannot. You don't have the data nor would I expect you to.

Batgirl is the property how she is used in other media or any other property is used is relevant. That goes far beyond simply cartoons.

I don't know why you think Firestorm, Hawkgirl or any other canned tittle is an example of anything. Those are tittles that did not get it done either. The order they died off does not really matter in the long run.

You are the person who posted that the Boss of a pretty big division, of a huge communications company "undermined" a character, who in your words is popular, so that the company could get rid of it.

That is different from a writer who gets to chose what characters they use or don't use in a book.

celticguy

08-21-2009, 09:15 AM

Out of curiosity, why does someone disliking and not doing their best by a character have to equal "conspiracy"?

someone may or may not dislike a character, but if they have actively undermined that character something must be going on.

celticguy

08-21-2009, 09:19 AM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9486956']Again, what's the difference between those characters now and at during those points in time? Once again, it's the creators. Do you think Hal Jordan would be successful as he is now if not for Geoff Johns?
:

When did Johns create Hal Jordan?

Hal Jordan has sold well over the years under various creative teams and sold poorly under some. At one point they gave him a rest by killing him off and he came back and is doing well.

If Jordan can only make money under one creative team then yeah it is all due to them.

The Cool Thatguy

08-21-2009, 09:23 AM

you have answered nothing because you cannot. You don't have the data nor would I expect you to.

Batgirl is the property how she is used in other media or any other property is used is relevant. That goes far beyond simply cartoons.

I don't know why you think Firestorm, Hawkgirl or any other canned tittle is an example of anything. Those are tittles that did not get it done either. The order they died off does not really matter in the long run.

You are the person who posted that the Boss of a pretty big division, of a huge communications company "undermined" a character, who in your words is popular, so that the company could get rid of it.

That is different from a writer who gets to chose what characters they use or don't use in a book.

Actually, I do have the information

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2006/2006-02.html

Also, I think what happened to Speedball now Bleedball, shows that, yes, EiC can be just as opinionated as writers when it comes to characters.

All you've done is throw out naive platitudes read from a text book while vastly overcomplicating my statements. When you reply, could you please use some facts or basic knowledge of the human condition, instead of reading the bullet points of a low rent motivational speaker?

celticguy

08-21-2009, 09:34 AM

Actually, I do have the information

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2006/2006-02.html

Also, I think what happened to Speedball now Bleedball, shows that, yes, EiC can be just as opinionated as writers when it comes to characters.

All you've done is throw out naive platitudes read from a text book while vastly overcomplicating my statements. When you reply, could you please use some facts or basic knowledge of the human condition, instead of reading the bullet points of a low rent motivational speaker?

Those are just book sales figures, where is the rest?

You have no market trends or projections, nothing showing other incomes the properties generated. This isn't like a golf tournament where books that hit a certain number get stay and others get cut.

I never read a speedball tittle so I did not see any editorial work that "undermined" the character. Unless you think the Civil War just just a big plan to get rid of Speedball.

The Cool Thatguy

08-21-2009, 09:43 AM

Those are just book sales figures, where is the rest?

You have no market trends or projections, nothing showing other incomes the properties generated. This isn't like a golf tournament where books that hit a certain number get stay and others get cut.

I never read a speedball tittle so I did not see any editorial work that "undermined" the character. Unless you think the Civil War just just a big plan to get rid of Speedball.

Yes, sales information is useless :rolleyes:

Honestly, do you have any facts that yopu can provide that don't start with 'should', 'suppose' or 'probably'? To date, your entire counter arguement is stating how a business man should act as if that were proof positive. Well, that and nit picking points when they prove you completely wrong.

Heck, you even got the defination of conspiracy wrong.

As for Speedball, he's an example of what happens when the EiC dislikes a character. Said dislike was expressed long before Civil War and well...we all saw what happened to him.

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-21-2009, 09:52 AM

When did Johns create Hal Jordan?

Didn't say he did. :confused:

Hal Jordan has sold well over the years under various creative teams and sold poorly under some. At one point they gave him a rest by killing him off and he came back and is doing well.

If Jordan can only make money under one creative team then yeah it is all due to them.

Exactly. So do you acknowledge that creative teams can make or break characters? That it's more likely the quality of work a writer does that determines the viability of a character?

celticguy

08-21-2009, 09:52 AM

Yes, sales information is useless :rolleyes:

Honestly, do you have any facts that yopu can provide that don't start with 'should', 'suppose' or 'probably'? To date, your entire counter arguement is stating how a business man should act as if that were proof positive. Well, that and nit picking points when they prove you completely wrong.

Heck, you even got the defination of conspiracy wrong.

As for Speedball, he's an example of what happens when the EiC dislikes a character. Said dislike was expressed long before Civil War and well...we all saw what happened to him.

Never said it was useless just not the whole story as you seem to think it is.

I have nothing I need to prove I am not the one who is accusing anyone of having "undermined" a fictional character, seemingly becasue it is in their human nature to hate the character.

All you have proven to me so far is you miss your binkie.

celticguy

08-21-2009, 09:56 AM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9487346']Didn't say he did. :confused:

Exactly. So do you acknowledge that creative teams can make or break characters? That it's more likely the quality of work a writer does that determines the viability of a character?

You called him the creator.

Make or break no, imporve or hurt single issue and TP sales yes. Certainly if a character or team launched under a star writer like Johns it has more of a chance to make it than one who is not as well regarded. Hal Jordan is a pretty big character, even if the next writer or artist is a total screw up I think the character would endure, and probably get a relaunch if need be.

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-21-2009, 10:18 AM

You called him the creator.

No. I meant creators as in people who create books... writers/artists/etc. i.e. the creative team.

You called him the creator.

Make or break no, imporve or hurt single issue and TP sales yes. Certainly if a character or team launched under a star writer like Johns it has more of a chance to make it than one who is not as well regarded. Hal Jordan is a pretty big character, even if the next writer or artist is a total screw up I think the character would endure, and probably get a relaunch if need be.

Still, Hal had been replaced for a decade and was only brought back mainly because of Johns. And you said it yourself. Hal sold well under some creative teams and sold poorly under some. The constant in both instances is multiple creative teams. How fair is it to base Cain's viability on one project (that didn't even touch the sales of her ongoing) headlined by a writer who has proven unable to write the character?

BTW, the link TCG posted above show's Cain's book outselling Black Panther, Runaways, Fables, Jonah Hex, Cable & Deadpool and Catwoman. Does that mean she's more viable than all of them (or vice versa).

celticguy

08-21-2009, 10:46 AM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9487463']No. I meant creators as in people who create books... writers/artists/etc. i.e. the creative team.

Still, Hal had been replaced for a decade and was only brought back mainly because of Johns. And you said it yourself. Hal sold well under some creative teams and sold poorly under some. The constant in both instances is multiple creative teams. How fair is it to base Cain's viability on one project (that didn't even touch the sales of her ongoing) headlined by a writer who has proven unable to write the character?

BTW, the link TCG posted above show's Cain's book outselling Black Panther, Runaways, Fables, Jonah Hex, Cable & Deadpool and Catwoman. Does that mean she's more viable than all of them (or vice versa).

So only Johns in all the world could have brought Hal back and when Johns leaves the book the character goes away forever? Is it more likely someone else takes over and if they do well they stay on or if they do bad someone else gets the book?

Hal has been around for what 40 plus years he has a base that will buy just because it is a Hal book enough that they would not scrap the character forever. Even when the character was dead he appeared in stories. Cass does not have that kind of fan base or if she does they it does not seem they not loyal enough to keep her afloat.

It is a not valid to compare to marvel books since the people doing the picking are different.

I know Hex sells well in TP I don't know if Batgirl books ever did. And as I have said repeatedly when using a property you have to look beyond just the single issue sales. The company makes money in other ways than just the single sales.

Where did it come out that Cain was replaced just due to the mini? When did that become fact? Did the Outsiders get a bump when she moved to that tittle? Did any books so a bump when she guest starred? Did DC have any data to suggest a Cass book was wanted by a large enough number to be profitable?

The Cool Thatguy

08-21-2009, 11:09 AM

Never said it was useless just not the whole story as you seem to think it is.

I have nothing I need to prove I am not the one who is accusing anyone of having "undermined" a fictional character, seemingly becasue it is in their human nature to hate the character.

All you have proven to me so far is you miss your binkie.

Well, with that last line I can prove that you haven't looked at any of the proof I've given you. So, to recap what I can prove:

I can prove Batgirl was making a profit when cancelled.

I can prove that it was an editor mandate that made Cass a villain.

I can prove that under Dan D, a writer widely disliked for his writing on Batgirl, was given Batgirl as a mini series.

(Funny how you're unwilling to recognize the above as a bad business move).

I can prove that creators do hate fictional characters, be they writers or EiC.

I can prove that businesses do not always act with common sense.

I can especially prove the above with regards to the comic book industry.

And lastly, I can prove that you are fuzzy on the defination of conspiracy or are putting words in my mouth. A conspiracy requires more than one actor.

All you've proven is that you can mindlessly repeat how things should be without recognizing them for how they actually are.

Vic Vega

08-21-2009, 11:10 AM

I don't think it is a rational or fair comparison to make between Giffen's legendary hatred of Karate Kid (he killied him 3 times actually) and Cassie's situation.

Cassie may have been Batgirl in the COMIC but on the bedsheets and posters and the last Batman cartoon Batgirl was Barbara Gordon.

Ideally D.C. would match the Comic version to the public consumption version(comic fans aint the general public) but they have legions of Oracle fans to deal with(If it was me I'd just ignore 'em but there you go).

So they've been trying to split the difference ever since. The heel turn was one idea. The second Batgirl series was another. You can't conclude that hired Beechen was an act of sabotage. If the character is strong enough if will have a following no matter who writes it (see: Wolverine, Spider Man). So that didn't work either. Time for plan B.

Steph's is closer to the "girl next door" that Babs once was before she became a computer genius. Cassie may have been been a P.C. coup (Asian, mildly disabled and not a sexpot) but she was a Uber-ninja first and foremost. At least Steph will give the writers the opportunty to do the kind of domestic drama stuff that hasn't been seen in the Bat books since Dixon left Robin. She has a living parent and has to go to school.

If you were ever going to sell a bat-character to the mass market again this would be the one that a young girl could actually relate to.

Besides its not like Cassie NEEDS to be Batgirl at this stage. She can just be "Cain"(she has no reason to have a secret I.D. anyway) and work from there.

celticguy

08-21-2009, 11:34 AM

Well, with that last line I can prove that you haven't looked at any of the proof I've given you. So, to recap what I can prove:

I can prove Batgirl was making a profit when cancelled.

I can prove that it was an editor mandate that made Cass a villain.

I can prove that under Dan D, a writer widely disliked for his writing on Batgirl, was given Batgirl as a mini series.

(Funny how you're unwilling to recognize the above as a bad business move).

I can prove that creators do hate fictional characters, be they writers or EiC.

I can prove that businesses do not always act with common sense.

I can especially prove the above with regards to the comic book industry.

And lastly, I can prove that you are fuzzy on the defination of conspiracy or are putting words in my mouth. A conspiracy requires more than one actor.

All you've proven is that you can mindlessly repeat how things should be without recognizing them for how they actually are.

You have proved none ofthis so saying you can does not mean anything.

What was the profit margin when the book was canned notthe sales figure the profit margin.

Cass was a villian kind of, she was drugged wasn't she? so what does that have to do with anything?

you disliked him I don't have any data saying he is widley disliked or liked or somewhere in the middle. I also don't know who else was around to give the book too in his place that wanted the job.

You have nto proved that they hate characters although I would expect they do, although hate maybe a little to strong a word. It does not mean an editor would only publish characters he had a fondness of.

Business do not always act with common sense but again mean nothing in the discussion. You have yet to prove replacing Cass was a bad move or one that lacked common sense.

Wouldn't the writer have to be on board when he underminded the character? Or is he some sort of master puppet master pulling strings to wreck havoc on a fictional character.

so if you got proof of any of this put up or shut up.

The Cool Thatguy

08-21-2009, 11:39 AM

You have proved none ofthis so saying you can does not mean anything.

What was the profit margin when the book was canned notthe sales figure the profit margin.

Cass was a villian kind of, she was drugged wasn't she? so what does that have to do with anything?

you disliked him I don't have any data saying he is widley disliked or liked or somewhere in the middle. I also don't know who else was around to give the book too in his place that wanted the job.

You have nto proved that they hate characters although I would expect they do, although hate maybe a little to strong a word. It does not mean an editor would only publish characters he had a fondness of.

Business do not always act with common sense but again mean nothing in the discussion. You have yet to prove replacing Cass was a bad move or one that lacked common sense.

Wouldn't the writer have to be on board when he underminded the character? Or is he some sort of master puppet master pulling strings to wreck havoc on a fictional character.

so if you got proof of any of this put up or shut up.

Wow, the river of denial runs deep.

Again, I proved my statements with well known facts. All you've done is shake your head and plug your ears. If that's what gets you by, good for you. But the facts really speak for themselves.

Freakzeek

08-21-2009, 11:44 AM

Yay! another Blond blue eyed peter parker clone replacing an established self-sustaining asian character in a world where Manga and Anime currently outsells comics! Where a show like Jackie chan adventures can last five seasons ( a lifetime in tv) with an multi-ethical cast, where Avatar the last airbender an Cartoon that was create from the influences of east asian, aztec, inuit, Indian cultures can pull in 4 million viewers and be made into a feature film.Where the most arguably popular new media sensation is Naruto, where a kid is an ninja/assassin that’s life goal is to train to kill people. Let’s place a brand new white-bread face for the soccer moms, Saturday cartoons and Reliability , I mean it all comes down to Big business right?

The Cool Thatguy

08-21-2009, 11:49 AM

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-21-2009, 11:53 AM

So only Johns in all the world could have brought Hal back and when Johns leaves the book the character goes away forever? Is it more likely someone else takes over and if they do well they stay on or if they do bad someone else gets the book?

Exactly.

Hal has been around for what 40 plus years he has a base that will buy just because it is a Hal book enough that they would not scrap the character forever. Even when the character was dead he appeared in stories. Cass does not have that kind of fan base or if she does they it does not seem they not loyal enough to keep her afloat.

I know Batgirl is nowhere near as big as Spider-Man, but say a current writer on his book is not working out and it's reflecting poorly on sales, what would be the most sound course of action? Replace Peter Parker with another character or find a writer capable of writing Parker? How many writers does DC have? Why give the Cain character to possibly the WORST possible writer that can write her? That's the problem. They didn't even ATTEMPT to find a viable writer for the character.

I know Hex sells well in TP I don't know if Batgirl books ever did. And as I have said repeatedly when using a property you have to look beyond just the single issue sales. The company makes money in other ways than just the single sales.

Here are some Batgirl trade figures:

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2003/2003-07.html
28 Batgirl Death Wish

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2004/2004-04.html
26 Batgirl Fists of Fury

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2005/2005-12.html
35 Batgirl Kicking Assassins

Where did it come out that Cain was replaced just due to the mini? When did that become fact? Did the Outsiders get a bump when she moved to that tittle? Did any books so a bump when she guest starred? Did DC have any data to suggest a Cass book was wanted by a large enough number to be profitable?

Because people in this thread cited the success of that mini (or the lack thereof) as a sound reason why for she was replaced.

So they've been trying to split the difference ever since. The heel turn was one idea. The second Batgirl series was another. You can't conclude that hired Beechen was an act of sabotage. If the character is strong enough if will have a following no matter who writes it (see: Wolverine, Spider Man). So that didn't work either. Time for plan B.

See... people keep bringing this up, but there are only FOUR characters that that have proven capable of doing this. Only 4 of the Pop Culture/Iconic 5, i.e. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man and Wolverine, have proven able to consistently sell in substantial numbers, even on projects with crap stories or bad writing. Although Wonder Woman is a member of the Iconic 5, she's not on that level. Comparing Cain to the Icons is not really a fair comparison, since almost no other comic book character is capable of meeting that criteria either. Look at how poorly Green Arrow/Black Canary is selling. Does that mean Green Arrow and Black Canary are non-viable characters? Does that mean neither Green Arrow or Black Canary have fans?

By the way, here are some answers to your other question.

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?messageID=2005313143

Shrimpman

08-21-2009, 12:11 PM

Speaking of Green Arrow, I hope nothing like what happened to Connor Hawke will happen to Cass now that she is replaced in the Batgirl role.

celticguy

08-21-2009, 12:14 PM

Wow, the river of denial runs deep.

Again, I proved my statements with well known facts. All you've done is shake your head and plug your ears. If that's what gets you by, good for you. But the facts really speak for themselves.

so I guess this means you can't produce.anything this to support these so called facts of yours.

The Cool Thatguy

08-21-2009, 12:28 PM

so I guess this means you can't produce.anything this to support these so called facts of yours.

Any fact I've produced, even if they're wildly admitted to as true (like how the editors ordered Cass be made a villain, her series was well selling, or how some creators do hate fictional characters), you just deny. You'd disagree if I said the sky is blue and water is wet.

Really, where are your facts? This entire debate, you've provided none other than saying how things, in your opinion, should operate. That's a far cry from facts, really.

celticguy

08-21-2009, 12:31 PM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9487933']Exactly.

I know Batgirl is nowhere near as big as Spider-Man, but say a current writer on his book is not working out and it's reflecting poorly on sales, what would be the most sound course of action? Replace Peter Parker with another character or find a writer capable of writing Parker? How many writers does DC have? Why give the Cain character to possibly the WORST possible writer that can write her? That's the problem. They didn't even ATTEMPT to find a viable writer for the character.

Because people in this thread cited the success of that mini (or the lack thereof) as a sound reason why for she was replaced.

See... people keep bringing this up, but there are only FOUR characters that that have proven capable of doing this. Only 4 of the Pop Culture/Iconic 5, i.e. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man and Wolverine, have proven able to consistently sell in substantial numbers, even on projects with crap stories or bad writing. Although Wonder Woman is a member of the Iconic 5, she's not on that level. Comparing Cain to the Icons is not really a fair comparison, since almost no other comic book character is capable of meeting that criteria either. Look at how poorly Green Arrow/Black Canary is selling. Does that mean Green Arrow and Black Canary are non-viable characters? Does that mean neither Green Arrow or Black Canary have fans?

By the way, here are some answers to your other question.

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?messageID=2005313143

Spider man has been replaced over the years being an iconic character he has rebounded like Hal would. you do realize you compared her to spidey and then said it was not fair to do in the same post?

wait so now you know how the writer for the mini was picked and what effort went into it? you have bugs in their office, do you? Just becasue a few people on here have it in for a writer does not make hiring them a mistake. Nobody is hated more than Bendis on this board and he makes marvel a lot of money. You have to give me more than your what has been shown so far to make your case.

I don't know that the mini was the sole reason they changed the character. I doubt it helped that there was little support for the mini, and she did nothing to ignite the Ousiders and her old book was not selling great when it was canned.

GA and BC are not viable in a solo tittle IMO, they are useful in team books but I also don't know how much they generate outside of comics in other markets whic may make it worth while to cross promote them with the books.

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-21-2009, 01:19 PM

Spider man has been replaced over the years being an iconic character he has rebounded like Hal would. you do realize you compared her to spidey and then said it was not fair to do in the same post?

Spidey didn't get replaced for more than a decade like Hal did. None of the Iconic 5 have. Also, my example regarding rotating writers could applies to almost any book, actually. I was also responding to a post that listed icons (Spidey and Wolverine) as comparative examples of fans supporting characters through crap stories.

wait so now you know how the writer for the mini was picked and what effort went into it? you have bugs in their office, do you? Just becasue a few people on here have it in for a writer does not make hiring them a mistake. Nobody is hated more than Bendis on this board and he makes marvel a lot of money. You have to give me more than your what has been shown so far to make your case.

Before Beechen was placed on the mini, there was already serious backlash as a result of his prior handling of the character. What was the reasoning for giving him the reigns to the character again? Did DC honestly expect different results?

I don't know that the mini was the sole reason they changed the character. I doubt it helped that there was little support for the mini, and she did nothing to ignite the Ousiders and her old book was not selling great when it was canned.

So did Hal's book. Yet, he's currently headlining DC's third most successful solo franchise. Plus there's been numerous examples of a book picking up in sales as a result of a simple change in creative teams (and vice versa). By the way, you cited Jonah Hex's success being a result of trades. Do you have the trade figures by any chance?

pariah-1972

08-21-2009, 01:37 PM

I'm wondering how hard it would be to write a character not known for speaking much?

AdamYJ

08-21-2009, 01:47 PM

I liked the first issue. Steph'll make a good Batgirl if she is the one who ends up in the cowl. I never really cared for Cassandra Cain, honestly. The whole quiet, intense assassin version of Batgirl never really appealed to me. The world of Batman has enough broody, taciturn badasses in it. Steph seems more like what I'd think of as Batgirl.

Of course, I should note that the only version of Batgirl I ever developed a real liking for is the spunky teenage version of Babs from Kids' WB's The Batman. :tongue:

celticguy

08-21-2009, 01:57 PM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9488415']Spidey didn't get replaced for more than a decade like Hal did. None of the Iconic 5 have. Also, my example regarding rotating writers could applies to almost any book, actually. I was also responding to a post that listed icons (Spidey and Wolverine) as comparative examples of fans supporting characters through crap stories.

Before Beechen was placed on the mini, there was already serious backlash as a result of his prior handling of the character. What was the reasoning for giving him the reigns to the character again? Did DC honestly expect different results?

So did Hal's book. Yet, he's currently headlining DC's third most successful solo franchise. Plus there's been numerous examples of a book picking up in sales as a result of a simple change in creative teams (and vice versa). By the way, you cited Jonah Hex's success being a result of trades. Do you have the trade figures by any chance?

Right but Cass is a replacement herslf isn't she She has more in common with Ben and Kyle than she does with Peter Parker or Hal Jordan. Actually I guess she is more like Guy Gardner and Steph is Kyle. For many people GL is Hal for many Batgirl is Babs, No one was able to make people forget either with the replacements. I don't expect Steph to be accepted either.

I don't know the reasons I can't believe it was to publish poor selling book on purpose if that was the expected result they could have just done a one shot or a 3 issue rather than the expense of a 6 issue mini. I don't know who else was available at the time they wanted to do it, which I would thik would be before FC finished.

I don't have hex figures I have seen it here mentioned a few times not the best of sources I grant you.

Do you have any figures to suggest any of the creative teams to handle Cass have ever had Spiderman or Hal like numbers. Has see ever been in the 40k plus area on a regular basis?

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-21-2009, 02:34 PM

Do you have any figures to suggest any of the creative teams to handle Cass have ever had Spiderman or Hal like numbers. Has see ever been in the 40k plus area on a regular basis?

Only books starring the Iconic 5 (and it varies in the case of Wonder Woman's sales) or books/characters written by superstar writers (i.e. Johns, Morrison, Bendis, JMS, and... believe it or not... Loeb) achieve those type of solo book sales. And I might have to do some checking, but aside from Chuck Dixon, I don't think her book ever had a "big-name" creator (i.e. a Simone, Dixon or Dini type). Excluding Dixon, I think it's a testament that her book did as well as it did without any of those factors.

I liked the first issue. Steph'll make a good Batgirl if she is the one who ends up in the cowl. I never really cared for Cassandra Cain, honestly. The whole quiet, intense assassin version of Batgirl never really appealed to me. The world of Batman has enough broody, taciturn badasses in it. Steph seems more like what I'd think of as Batgirl.

Of course, I should note that the only version of Batgirl I ever developed a real liking for is the spunky teenage version of Babs from Kids' WB's The Batman. :tongue:

Actually, one of the main themes of her book was trying to run/move away from and fight against that type of lifestyle.

celticguy

08-21-2009, 02:57 PM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9488934']Only books starring the Iconic 5 (and it varies in the case of Wonder Woman's sales) or books/characters written by superstar writers (i.e. Johns, Morrison, Bendis, JMS, and... believe it or not... Loeb) achieve those type of solo book sales. And I might have to do some checking, but aside from Chuck Dixon, I don't think her book ever had a "big-name" creator (i.e. a Simone, Dixon or Dini type). Excluding Dixon, I think it's a testament that her book did as well as it did without any of those factors.

Actually, one of the main themes of her book was trying to run/move away from and fight against that type of lifestyle.

fair enough but anywhere in the 30's even on a constant basis assuming she launched well did she maintain. And I go back to there are ways beyond the comics properties make mony i am not sure how much a Cass Batgirl brought in.

Not every character can have a name writer, some characters need to serve as the Fodder for new writers to make their name on. There are only a few writers that are at that top and there are more books than they can write in the industry, and many of them have non comic interests these days as well.

AiyokuSama

08-21-2009, 04:32 PM

someone may or may not dislike a character, but if they have actively undermined that character something must be going on.

Again, why does this amount to a "conspiracy"? What definition of the word are you using?

Personally what I've seen is a bunch of individuals dropping the ball for various reasons. I'm not seeing any organized effort by the group of individuals to see Cass crash and burn.

Captain Jim

08-21-2009, 07:25 PM

this feels like one in a long line of digs you've been taking at fans of Cassandra. I wish you would stop, even if they frustrate you with their overstated dislike of DC editorial and Adam Beechen's writing.

I'm sorry you feel that way; it was certainly never my intention to make "digs" at anyone.

I personally have nothing against Cassandra Cain, though I can't pretend to be her biggest fan either. I bought her title for about the first year and found it incredibly dull and an extremely fast read due to the sparsity of dialogue. Some of the "event" tie-in's were well done, though, and I thought the Bludhaven issues written by Andersen Gabrych were a big improvement.

Neither do I have anything against her fans. I refuse to lump them together with a generalization, because that's not fair. But I think it's pretty obvious to most people that some Cassandra Cain fans (including some who are most vocal on these forums) seem to be obsessed with this character and paranoid about the workings of DC editorial.

Link please. :biggrin:

http://dixonverse.net/board3/index.php?topic=1137.msg20565#msg20565

Let’s place a brand new white-bread face for the soccer moms, Saturday cartoons and Reliability,

Um, you are aware that Stephanie Brown has been around since 1992, right?

AdamYJ

08-21-2009, 07:38 PM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9488934'] Actually, one of the main themes of her book was trying to run/move away from and fight against that type of lifestyle.

Well, yes, I know that she wasn't an assassin anymore. Batman wouldn't work with an assassin. However, she was still kind of a dark, intense, taciturn character, wasn't she? I'm just tired of that sort of character. (and, yes, I do realize the irony of saying such a thing on the Batman board).

hondobrode

08-21-2009, 08:04 PM

I guess I'm not necessarily against Steph, but I really like Cassie.

Her Batgirl costume was awesome too. She's gotta come back somehow.

Vic Vega

08-21-2009, 08:45 PM

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9487933']

See... people keep bringing this up, but there are only FOUR characters that that have proven capable of doing this. Only 4 of the Pop Culture/Iconic 5, i.e. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man and Wolverine, have proven able to consistently sell in substantial numbers, even on projects with crap stories or bad writing. Although Wonder Woman is a member of the Iconic 5, she's not on that level. Comparing Cain to the Icons is not really a fair comparison, since almost no other comic book character is capable of meeting that criteria either. Look at how poorly Green Arrow/Black Canary is selling. Does that mean Green Arrow and Black Canary are non-viable characters? Does that mean neither Green Arrow or Black Canary have fans?

It means that Cain is no more viable than She-Hulk which only sells when Dan Slott writes her.

And if Connor Hawk had sold even a little better Ollie'd STILL be in the ground.

If a character isn't viable enought to get the kind of fans than collect entire runs its just a fringe character.

Like She Hulk, Nova a bunch of other characters who fall inand out of limbo regularly.

THAT's my point.

Blight

08-21-2009, 09:22 PM

http://dixonverse.net/board3/index.php?topic=1137.msg20565#msg20565

Thank you. :biggrin:

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-21-2009, 09:56 PM

It means that Cain is no more viable than She-Hulk which only sells when Dan Slott writes her.

And if Connor Hawk had sold even a little better Ollie'd STILL be in the ground.

If a character isn't viable enought to get the kind of fans than collect entire runs its just a fringe character.

Like She Hulk, Nova a bunch of other characters who fall inand out of limbo regularly.

THAT's my point.

And like I said, there's still only four characters capable of consistently selling whether the stories are good or bad. Out of how many thousands of characters? That's not exactly a mark against a character's (any character's) viability. Even Wonder Woman has trouble reaching that point. As stated before, this all boils down to finding a capable writer.

On a side note, with the way things seem to be going, Deadpool might be able to reach that level of iconic-ness within the next decade. So you could probably bump that number up to 5 when that time comes.

carabas

08-21-2009, 11:12 PM

someone may or may not dislike a character, but if they have actively undermined that character something must be going on.Dude, if a story like Civil War or whatever calls for a character to be defaced, killed or otherwise takea bad turn, an edtior in chief is going to pick a character he personally doesn't care for at all rather than one of his favourites. Hence Speedball becoming even more of a joke than he already was.

Not a conspiracy, just editorial choices guided by the personal likes and dislikes of the editors.

joel221

08-22-2009, 01:20 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way; it was certainly never my intention to make "digs" at anyone.

Neither do I have anything against her fans. I refuse to lump them together with a generalization, because that's not fair.

Thanks, Jim. I appreciate both sentiments.

But I think it's pretty obvious to most people that some Cassandra Cain fans (including some who are most vocal on these forums) seem to be obsessed with this character and paranoid about the workings of DC editorial.

I agree with the first part of this. There are some fans who are obsessed, but I think the obsession probably did not exist before OYL. It's not an obsession with Cass in herself you're seeing so much as an obsession with Cass as a symbol for DC poorly handling characters. I think the longevity and popularity of Casstoons communicated this pretty clearly.

As to the paranoia, I agree with ThatCoolGuy that characters that editors and artists like are probably significantly more likely to succeed, if only for the short term. It doesn't mean for sure that they will become popular, but it certainly helps. Business at a publisher is always about both the bottom line and what fires up the decision-makers. Does that mean Dan Didio is trying to sabotage the character? Not really. It is a little odd that he re-assigned Adam Beechen to write the mini-series, though. Personally, I tend to assume that he just doesn't care about her that much or see her as that important, an attitude shared by some readers.

Nevertheless, he has the power to sabotage any character (save maybe Batman) and he seems to like a top-down approach at DC. I would say some jump to the worst conclusion with Didio, but what they are saying is possible, even if it's not the most likely scenario. And it wouldn't make Didio some evil spawn of the devil even if he did want to see Cassandra go.

All that to say, I think saying people are paranoid in most cases is kind of useless name-calling, and it always fails to acknowledge the portions of someone's arguments that are actually valid.

celticguy

08-23-2009, 05:01 PM

Again, why does this amount to a "conspiracy"? What definition of the word are you using?

Personally what I've seen is a bunch of individuals dropping the ball for various reasons. I'm not seeing any organized effort by the group of individuals to see Cass crash and burn.

What do you call it when an editor and creative staff work in secret to "undermine" a part of their business?

unless there is a press release saying they were going to weaken one of there copywrited characters.

The Cool Thatguy

08-23-2009, 05:06 PM

Sizzle

08-23-2009, 05:34 PM

What do you call it when an editor and creative staff work in secret to "undermine" a part of their business?

unless there is a press release saying they were going to weaken one of there copywrited characters.

That's dumb. If they did not like Cassie, why waste money even on making her a series? As the Editor, they could of just buried her for a lot less money in a panel in a existing book.

So instead, they spent money on making a book and paying staff to bury her? Yeah, OK.

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-23-2009, 05:53 PM

That's dumb. If they did not like Cassie, why waste money even on making her a series? As the Editor, they could of just buried her for a lot less money in a panel in a existing book.

So instead, they spent money on making a book and paying staff to bury her? Yeah, OK.

You mean the mini? I don't think any it was malicious. But it's apparent they didn't put in too much effort at all.

celticguy

08-23-2009, 06:27 PM

Dude, if a story like Civil War or whatever calls for a character to be defaced, killed or otherwise takea bad turn, an edtior in chief is going to pick a character he personally doesn't care for at all rather than one of his favourites. Hence Speedball becoming even more of a joke than he already was.

Not a conspiracy, just editorial choices guided by the personal likes and dislikes of the editors.

I agree with that, an editor should and does bench or elevate characters that they are partial too. A writer can as well although that depends on how much pull a writer might have. That is not what was being stated in this instance. Certain Iconic character cannot be gotten rid of long term and Cass does not follow into that elite company.

But the complaint being made here is that the editor is working with certain talent in an effort to "undermine" a character. It has not been that the editor made a bad call in benching (or really it could just be changing we don't know if Cass is going anywhere) the character but that the editor has been working to "undermine" the character which would result in the property being less valuable. That is what I have a hard time going along with.

paulski

08-23-2009, 09:24 PM

AiyokuSama

08-23-2009, 09:49 PM

What do you call it when an editor and creative staff work in secret to "undermine" a part of their business?

You tell me. I haven't seen that happening. I've just seen people being people.

AiyokuSama

08-23-2009, 09:51 PM

That's dumb.

There are all kinds of "dumb" business practises out there. It just comes down to people being people.

AiyokuSama

08-23-2009, 09:55 PM

But the complaint being made here is that the editor is working with certain talent in an effort to "undermine" a character.

Has anyone said it was a conscious thing on the part of the so accused? Or was it more the mentioning of a pattern seen?

An effort to undermine can be a subconscious thing. Actually, that's something we humans are very good at, then we act all surprised when that behaviour is pointed out, because it wasn't conscious. Again, this is human nature.

carabas

08-24-2009, 12:57 AM

But the complaint being made here is that the editor is working with certain talent in an effort to "undermine" a character. It has not been that the editor made a bad call in benching (or really it could just be changing we don't know if Cass is going anywhere) the character but that the editor has been working to "undermine" the character which would result in the property being less valuable. That is what I have a hard time going along with.Does canceling an okay selling series to replace it by another ongoing with another similar character count as undermining? Devin Grayson's Bat-Woman never materialised, but that was the main reason behind canceling Batgirl.

And of course there may not be maliceousness in play with giving Beechen a second shot at frelling up Batgirl, but at the very least it is DiDio not really paying attention to a mini about a character he coesn't care for.

bulletproofsponge

08-24-2009, 04:22 AM

hold on. steph is batgirl? cool. ive only been following red robin since bruce died. SO yea. Last i saw steph was in red robin. and Se was still Spoiler

celticguy

08-24-2009, 05:29 AM

Does canceling an okay selling series to replace it by another ongoing with another similar character count as undermining? Devin Grayson's Bat-Woman never materialised, but that was the main reason behind canceling Batgirl.

And of course there may not be maliceousness in play with giving Beechen a second shot at frelling up Batgirl, but at the very least it is DiDio not really paying attention to a mini about a character he coesn't care for.

It would depend on the reasons for canceling it, if it was because they had palns to produce product that would make more money it is not. Unless the claim is that he canceled with hopes of making less money.

Or it is Dido believeing in one of the writers at his disposal or it was the best option he had at the time or the writer came up with an idea he liked. Nobody has shown any indication of why any choie was made. All I keep seeing is bitching and complaining Dido was out to get a fictional character. If he wanted to he could have had the character killed off or just benched it and he would have had no problem do it. If he was just out to get her it seems that would have been far easier than the plot he is accused to have carried out.

celticguy

08-24-2009, 05:33 AM

Has anyone said it was a conscious thing on the part of the so accused? Or was it more the mentioning of a pattern seen?

An effort to undermine can be a subconscious thing. Actually, that's something we humans are very good at, then we act all surprised when that behaviour is pointed out, because it wasn't conscious. Again, this is human nature.

Ok he was plotting her demise in his subconcious that is your claim?

I don't get why it is so hard to believe he just thought something like, Cass does not seem to be working lets try something else with Batgirl, and see if Cass can be used in some other way down the road.

Why does it have to be some eleaborate drawn out plot to weaken her as a viable property.

The Cool Thatguy

08-24-2009, 06:02 AM

Ok he was plotting her demise in his subconcious that is your claim?

I don't get why it is so hard to believe he just thought something like, Cass does not seem to be working lets try something else with Batgirl, and see if Cass can be used in some other way down the road.

Why does it have to be some eleaborate drawn out plot to weaken her as a viable property.

Because she was working, up until Dan D cut her legs out from underneath her.

pariah-1972

08-24-2009, 06:12 AM

Because she was working, up until Dan D cut her legs out from underneath her.So he intentionally canceled a book that was selling?

Wow he's even stupider than i thought.:rolleyes:

Anyways i thought the Editor in Chief doesn't hold the power to cancel a book it's from the higher ups?

The Cool Thatguy

08-24-2009, 06:18 AM

So he intentionally canceled a book that was selling?

Wow he's even stupider than i thought.:rolleyes:

Anyways i thought the Editor in Chief doesn't hold the power to cancel a book it's from the higher ups?

So what, it was cancelled by accident? As I've already shown, it was making a profit, enough to substain itself.

IIRC, the rational was to make way for Batwoman. That never happened, and seems odd to me that we now have both a Batwoman and Batgirl title at the same time now. What changed inbetween then and now?

AiyokuSama

08-24-2009, 06:58 AM

Ok he was plotting her demise in his subconcious that is your claim?

Nope. Not even close. In fact, I haven't made any claims in this thread. I've left that to other people. Instead I've been looking at people's posts and the terms they do or don't employ.

I don't get why it is so hard to believe he just thought something like, Cass does not seem to be working lets try something else with Batgirl, and see if Cass can be used in some other way down the road.

It's not hard, I just fail to see how it's the case here. People have already posted the numbers to show why "Cass doesn't seem to be working" doesn't make sense as a contributing factor. But if you think you have evidence to the contrary, by all means, please show it.

Why does it have to be some eleaborate drawn out plot to weaken her as a viable property.

I have no idea, you're the only one I've seen putting forth such terms and phrases.

celticguy

08-24-2009, 10:36 AM

Nope. Not even close. In fact, I haven't made any claims in this thread. I've left that to other people. Instead I've been looking at people's posts and the terms they do or don't employ.

It's not hard, I just fail to see how it's the case here. People have already posted the numbers to show why "Cass doesn't seem to be working" doesn't make sense as a contributing factor. But if you think you have evidence to the contrary, by all means, please show it.

I have no idea, you're the only one I've seen putting forth such terms and phrases.

If you read the thread you would see I was not the one who brought undermine into it. I still don't see a smoking gun of Dido executing a plan to ruin the value of a character.

How do you define working? mediocre sales? How was it working in the greater storyline plans? How did she fit into the larger marketing of the DC line? What did their market research so for future projections with her vs without her?

This is not a lemonade stand, this is grown up business.

The Cool Thatguy

08-24-2009, 11:01 AM

If you read the thread you would see I was not the one who brought undermine into it. I still don't see a smoking gun of Dido executing a plan to ruin the value of a character.

How do you define working? mediocre sales? How was it working in the greater storyline plans? How did she fit into the larger marketing of the DC line? What did their market research so for future projections with her vs without her?

This is not a lemonade stand, this is grown up business.

And as we can tell by the health of the comics industry, they haven't made a wrong move yet! :rolleyes:

It's called human bias, look it up.

celticguy

08-24-2009, 01:24 PM

And as we can tell by the health of the comics industry, they haven't made a wrong move yet! :rolleyes:

It's called human bias, look it up.

honestly you really just don't have a clue do you.

Intentionally destroying a corporate asset because of emotional bias it is just bad business. You have yet to prove that is what he has done.

The Cool Thatguy

08-24-2009, 01:38 PM

honestly you really just don't have a clue do you.

Intentionally destroying a corporate asset because of emotional bias it is just bad business. You have yet to prove that is what he has done.

Thus far, I've produced more facts than you, so I'd say the reverse is true.

How is it good business to can a title that's substaining itself? Given how small the cimmunity of comics readers is, how is it remotely intelligent to can a female minority character that's substaining herself?

You can repeat 'That's bad business' in one fashion or another (really, it's all you've done), but if you'd actually read a newspaper in the last year, you'd see dozens of examples of people thinking they can get away with bad business practices. Hell, some thought they could defy basic *gravity* of economics.

So find another line, or some proof, please.

celticguy

08-24-2009, 02:03 PM

Thus far, I've produced more facts than you, so I'd say the reverse is true.

How is it good business to can a title that's substaining itself? Given how small the cimmunity of comics readers is, how is it remotely intelligent to can a female minority character that's substaining herself?

You can repeat 'That's bad business' in one fashion or another (really, it's all you've done), but if you'd actually read a newspaper in the last year, you'd see dozens of examples of people thinking they can get away with bad business practices. Hell, some thought they could defy basic *gravity* of economics.

So find another line, or some proof, please.

I don't need proof I am not accusing anyone of anything.

It could be a very bad business move possibly, but that is not what you have been calling it. The value of the move has not been in debate thus far. You and a few others have accused Dido of purposely working to weaken a company asset and produced no proof other than you don't like who he hired for the mini.

AiyokuSama

08-24-2009, 02:04 PM

If you read the thread you would see I was not the one who brought undermine into it.

The character HAS been undermined by a great many things, which have been pointed out repeatedly. That doesn't mean there was a conspiracy to do so.

How do you define working? mediocre sales?

This has already been answered previously in the thread.

How was it working in the greater storyline plans?

You tell me. Myself, I was happy with her on-going and if she showed up outside of that, I might pick it up, I might not, depending how much other non-batgirl titles I would need to get to make sense of it.

How did she fit into the larger marketing of the DC line? What did their market research so for future projections with her vs without her?

Again, you tell me. So far I haven't seen anything of the kind. Actually, I haven't seen anything that indicated much thought was put into Cass and her future. But I'm more then willing to look at evidence to the contrary.

This is not a lemonade stand, this is grown up business.

So? It's still run by fallible humans with their own various blind spots and biases.

AiyokuSama

08-24-2009, 02:08 PM

Intentionally destroying a corporate asset because of emotional bias it is just bad business.

Without a doubt. However, businesses engage in "bad business" all the time. Some sink because of it, some don't. Some that don't learn their lesson, some are so big and/or self-important that they don't notice. It still happens. No one is perfect.

The Cool Thatguy

08-24-2009, 02:11 PM

I don't need proof I am not accusing anyone of anything.

It could be a very bad business move possibly, but that is not what you have been calling it. The value of the move has not been in debate thus far. You and a few others have accused Dido of purposely working to weaken a company asset and produced no proof other than you don't like who he hired for the mini.

First, this is a bedate, so yeah, you need proof instead of mindlessly repeating a mantra.

Second, you're, unsurprisingly, ignoring our evidence. It's not just that he hired Beechen to do her mini. It's that he scuttled her book in favor of a Batwoman title that never came, mandated that she be made a villain, and when that failed gave her mini series to a writer who's main accomplishment is how badly he wrote said character. Oh, and we now have both a Batwoman and Batgirl title.

Last time a checked, allowing someone to 'redeem themselves' isn't part of the standard business model.

Really, it's a pattern that you refuse to recognize. Instead, you reply with the same mantra of what's bad business without recognizing reality on any level.

celticguy

08-24-2009, 02:19 PM

The character HAS been undermined by a great many things, which have been pointed out repeatedly. That doesn't mean there was a conspiracy to do so.

This has already been answered previously in the thread.

You tell me. Myself, I was happy with her on-going and if she showed up outside of that, I might pick it up, I might not, depending how much other non-batgirl titles I would need to get to make sense of it.

Again, you tell me. So far I haven't seen anything of the kind. Actually, I haven't seen anything that indicated much thought was put into Cass and her future. But I'm more then willing to look at evidence to the contrary.

So? It's still run by fallible humans with their own various blind spots and biases.

get back to me when you grow up and get a job.

When did Dido announce he and the writer were working to undermine the character if was not done in secret according to you so there must be publicity about it somewhere.

It has not been answered and that what you have yet to learn. this is a huge corporation one small bit does not tell you everything. Her so so sales of her book do not by default make her profitable.

So you accuse the guy of not doing work that you have no idea either way he has done. Yup get back to me when you get a job.

celticguy

08-24-2009, 02:24 PM

First, this is a bedate, so yeah, you need proof instead of mindlessly repeating a mantra.

Second, you're, unsurprisingly, ignoring our evidence. It's not just that he hired Beechen to do her mini. It's that he scuttled her book in favor of a Batwoman title that never came, mandated that she be made a villain, and when that failed gave her mini series to a writer who's main accomplishment is how badly he wrote said character. Oh, and we now have both a Batwoman and Batgirl title.

Last time a checked, allowing someone to 'redeem themselves' isn't part of the standard business model.

Really, it's a pattern that you refuse to recognize. Instead, you reply with the same mantra of what's bad business without recognizing reality on any level.

It not a bedate what ever the hell that is.

I am not saying anyone did anything I don't require proof. I am asking you to do more than bitch like child who had his toy taken away and so far you have not been able to do anything but say he has it in for a fictional character.

Prove to me he does not run it like a business and he would spend months working to damage a fictional character he could if he wanted just get rid of. All you have done is say the book was so so in sales. You have proved nothing except you will accuse someone of doing something without proof.

AiyokuSama

08-24-2009, 02:38 PM

get back to me when you grow up and get a job.

Is that really the best you can come up with? an inane personal attack? I have to say, I'm very disappointed. Please let me know when you intend to get back to the discussion at hand.

When did Dido announce he and the writer were working to undermine the character if was not done in secret according to you so there must be publicity about it somewhere.

You are creating a false dichotomy. there are a great many other options then those two, as I and others have pointed out previously.

It has not been answered and that what you have yet to learn. this is a huge corporation one small bit does not tell you everything. Her so so sales of her book do not by default make her profitable.

Yes, it has been answered. Pretending otherwise will not change that. And if you have evidence of a factor other then sales being involved, I should like very much to see it. so far you engaging in the same speculation you have condemned others for.

So you accuse the guy of not doing work that you have no idea either way he has done. Yup get back to me when you get a job.

I made no such accusation (you're welcome to prove otherwise) and your continued personal attacks don't change anything.

The Cool Thatguy

08-24-2009, 02:41 PM

It not a bedate what ever the hell that is.

I am not saying anyone did anything I don't require proof. I am asking you to do more than bitch like child who had his toy taken away and so far you have not been able to do anything but say he has it in for a fictional character.

Prove to me he does not run it like a business and he would spend months working to damage a fictional character he could if he wanted just get rid of. All you have done is say the book was so so in sales. You have proved nothing except you will accuse someone of doing something without proof.

Again, it's a debate. You constantly throw out comments but provide nothing to back them up. You repeat 'that's bad business practices' like some people stick their thumbs in their ears not to hear what the other person is saying.

I don't recall saying he spent months, or that he's secretly plotting to destroy the character. Those are exaggerations you created so that you wouldn't have to deal with my points.

Dan D cancelled Cass' well selling title to make way for Batwoman, which never happened. Then, it was ordered that she be made a villain. When fans objected, he assigned mer mini series to a writer loathed for destroying the character in the first place.

Pattern recognition. It's fairly basic. Dan D doesn't like her, and given his position it's not hard to derail her. She's not the first character disliked by a creator and she won't be the last.

You can whine that 'it's bad business practice!', but comics as a whole fail to meet good business standards. Flash Rebirth is a month late. How does that help sales? Final Crisis was late, as was Civil War despite setting the status qous for the entire companies. Again, how is that good business?

Really, find a new line. Comics haven't practiced good business for years now.

celticguy

08-24-2009, 02:59 PM

Again, it's a debate. You constantly throw out comments but provide nothing to back them up. You repeat 'that's bad business practices' like some people stick their thumbs in their ears not to hear what the other person is saying.

I don't recall saying he spent months, or that he's secretly plotting to destroy the character. Those are exaggerations you created so that you wouldn't have to deal with my points.

Dan D cancelled Cass' well selling title to make way for Batwoman, which never happened. Then, it was ordered that she be made a villain. When fans objected, he assigned mer mini series to a writer loathed for destroying the character in the first place.

Pattern recognition. It's fairly basic. Dan D doesn't like her, and given his position it's not hard to derail her. She's not the first character disliked by a creator and she won't be the last.

You can whine that 'it's bad business practice!', but comics as a whole fail to meet good business standards. Flash Rebirth is a month late. How does that help sales? Final Crisis was late, as was Civil War despite setting the status qous for the entire companies. Again, how is that good business?

Really, find a new line. Comics haven't practiced good business for years now.

The tittle was canceled ,the mini ran what 6 issues, she moved to the outsiders and then BFTC happened, that did not happen over several months at the very least? that was when he was working to undermine the the character was it not? Or did he do it in one grand stroke? If it was just the one stroke he took an awful risk letting her appear in those other work, she could have possibly rebounded.

Again why would he have such a manic hatred of a person that does not exist that he would work for so long to weaken any profits the company could make from her. Why put her in the outsiders if she had no value, he could have just had her killed off if he had it in for her.

I am not sure what the lateness of books has to do with the EIC job unless you think he is holding them back and they were all passed in on time. Most times the talent seems to be the reasons books are late, some times the EIC might reschedule something for various reasons and depending on the reason it could be bad for business.

[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite

08-24-2009, 03:04 PM

I found an article that touches upon the difference between someone running a business and someone actually treating what they run as a business.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/04/21/judge-says-sumner-redstone-treated-midway-like-a-toy/

The Cool Thatguy

08-24-2009, 03:21 PM

The tittle was canceled ,the mini ran what 6 issues, she moved to the outsiders and then BFTC happened, that did not happen over several months at the very least? that was when he was working to undermine the the character was it not? Or did he do it in one grand stroke? If it was just the one stroke he took an awful risk letting her appear in those other work, she could have possibly rebounded.

Again why would he have such a manic hatred of a person that does not exist that he would work for so long to weaken any profits the company could make from her. Why put her in the outsiders if she had no value, he could have just had her killed off if he had it in for her.

I am not sure what the lateness of books has to do with the EIC job unless you think he is holding them back and they were all passed in on time. Most times the talent seems to be the reasons books are late, some times the EIC might reschedule something for various reasons and depending on the reason it could be bad for business.

I never said he had a maniac hatred of her, or that his derailing Cass could only be done in one fashion.

In addition, citing Outsiders is not evidence that DC had some great plan for her. Dixon quit/got fired because he was sick of how DC kept changing their minds with regards to the series. Cass on Outsiders was merely a place holder for the character. He didn't kill her because of fan outrage, which was evident when she was made a villain. But screwing her over is far easier. Dan D clearly has a vision of what the DCU should be and Cass apparently doesn't conform to that, so he's taken steps to fix that.

What, pray tell, is so hard to understand about that? And spare me the 'bad business prattle'.

Canning her title for Batwoman's a transparent excuse when you consider we have both a Batwoman and Batgirl title now. DC has never explained their rational for ordering Cass be made a villain. And Dan D would have to be blind not to see how disliked Beechen was on Batgirl.

So again, pattern recognition.