Do fans want Bruce back?

[muimi]

I finally found the time and opportunity to catch up on the latest happenings in the Batverse and... good lord, what did the editors do now? :confused: :eek: I'm still getting used to all the changes but I'm wondering... do fans even want Bruce Wayne back at this point? I'm sort of on the fence. I'm expecting him back (especially since they had left themselves an out FOR him to come back) but as for if I'd want to see him back as Batman... wow, wouldn't that be too weird? Building up all these characters just to have Bruce take it all back later?

[40footwolf]

That old boy can stay in the grave as long as he pleases, as far as I'm concerned.

[SpideyZERO]

I expcet Bruce to come back, but not so soon

[The Crime Dentist]

They should certainly keep him gone longer than Marvel had Bucky as Captain America. It's like the character was just getting established, then woosh! Rug pulled right from under him. Let Dick be Batman long enough to let that story breathe; it's been 70 years in coming.

[CountAchilles]

As soon as people start getting bored or the sales figures start falling dramatically,he'll be back.

[Damiean Dark]

Of course we want him back there is only one batman and thats bruce wayne,dick is nightwing (:confused: the fickleness of fans astounds me sometimes:confused: ) he is playing a role as batman to fill the vacuum in Gotham and thats it.

[Jim Thompson]

I'm in no hurry for Wayne to return to the main DCU, and even after he does, I don't want him to become Batman again. I like Grayson in the role.

[nepenthes]

I want my baby back. Baby back ribs

[shaxper]

Maybe I'm the only one who thinks that the idea of Dick taking up the legacy is flipping awesome and would like it to stay.

Honestly, it's not like DC isn't going to release a ton of new "classic" Batman stories anyway. We'll get the frequent mini-series and possibly even another All-Star or Confidential style title that will keep Bruce in print even while he isn't alive.

Dead or not, Bruce isn't going away, so why not try something different in the main continuity that's going to have a lot more support than Azrael taking over?

[the Hornet]

I always preferred Dick and Tim so I rather read about them. However, we all know that if not in 1 year or 2 years or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or even 10 years, Bruce will be brought back as Batman. Dick is really popular now what with his own old fans and Batman fans liking him and possibily new readers coming in too. So I rather he give back the cowl to Bruce when he is hot rather than not. That way, DC won't dare kill him off due out of fear of fan backlash.

Because eventually everyone will get bored of the status quo. Even when Bruce gets back after a while things will need to be shaken up again. It is how it goes.

So yeah, I prefer Dick but Bruce will be back and I rather it happen in 1 year or 2.

[bigbluntz]

Man I can't wait until Steve comes back as Capta..... oops I mean Bruce comes back as Batman. This was such an original idea, I can't believe noone thought of it B4 :rolleyes:

[KandouErik]

No. Keep Bruce dead. Nightwing is doing fine as Batman, he still looks the same as Batman, and his return would only detract from the evolution of Grayson.

[carabas]

Of course we want him back there is only one batman and thats bruce wayne,dick is nightwing.Robin. Dick is Robin. Clark Kent is the one true Nightwing.

Either Dick is Robin, or change and progression are just fine.

[Berkey]

I don't mind dick as the Bat, but i love bruce so i would like to see him back at some point, as batman or not. I wouldn't mind him being gone for a long time if they would have "killed" him off in a batman related event rather than a "multiverse/end of time/ DC's flop of a main event" type of drama, but hey what can you do.

[Chiroptera]

I want Bruce back as soon as possible, I'm not really interested in a Batman that isn't Bruce Wayne. I like Grayson, and I loved him as Nightwing, but I'm not interested in him as the Batman.

[Jorriss]

I don't want Bruce back. He has become one of the most bland, boring characters in the really mainstream DCU.

[shinjiro15]

Of course we want him back there is only one batman and thats bruce wayne,dick is nightwing (:confused: the fickleness of fans astounds me sometimes:confused: ) he is playing a role as batman to fill the vacuum in Gotham and thats it.


i was really thinking this over. you have a point that dick is mroe his own person, just sort of "helping out" because the need is bigger than his desries are.

however, i really think that tim would be the best replacement. he would thrive in the role and really make it his own. look at the way he's been writtne the last 5 years, it's a slow transformation inot batman. NOT bruce, but his version fo batman wich is heavily based on bruce. dick on the other hand is way too happy go lucky.

[FeminineMystique]

Frankly, I don't care if he never returns. Batwoman is awesome in Detective Comics and I'm liking Dick as the new Batman. I liked Bruce fine enough but his removal has allowed some cool changes in the Bat-Verse. I'm in no hurry for it all to go back to the status quo

[CBikle]

Keep him gone for 5 years or until the Dick Grayson as Batman storyline stops working.

[Nathan]

Robin. Dick is Robin. Clark Kent is the one true Nightwing.

Either Dick is Robin, or change and progression are just fine.


WHAT! Clark Kent is the one who told Dick abut a Krypton hero named Nightwing, who is now flying around on earth , Clark Kent is not the one true Nightwing and Dick may not either but he made the name his own

[JulianPerez]

You know, I remember when Steve Englehart took over Green Lantern. There was a great expectation that he would bring Hal Jordan back "where he belongs" as soon as possible.

Instead, Englehart, who was possibly the most unpredictable writer in comics, decided to do stories focusing on Jon Stewart and Guy Gardner for almost a year. I suspect a big part of the use of John Stewart in the cartoons was because of how Englehart made Jon Stewart such an interesting character.

By the time Hal Jordan finally came around, Jon Stewart was so friggin' cool that I didn't want Hal back.

(Incidentally, it's worth mentioning too that it was Englehart that made Hawkgirl a member of the JLA, and also the first two-parter with the Manhunters, was based on Englehart's initial JLA story arc.)

http://www.steveenglehart.com/Comics/Comics%20Images/JLA%20140.jpg

I guess the relevance of all this to Dick Grayson is that, just like it's a good idea to develop a character like Dick in such a front and center role. He's a great character, and his growth and change over time has been one of the best long-term stories in the DCU.

Getting rid of Batman, even for a short time, was an extremely ballsy move I'm still reeling from. I don't think Bruce Wayne will be gone forever, but I am very interested in seeing someone else for a while.

[DarienA]

I would like Bruce to come back at some point.. but I'm cool with the current situation. I'd like to see it play out over a year or so before Bruce returned...

[carabas]

WHAT! Clark Kent is the one who told Dick abut a Krypton hero named Nightwing, who is now flying around on earth , Clark Kent is not the one true Nightwing and Dick may not either but he made the name his own
First Nightwing: Clark Kent
Second Nightwing: Van-Zee
Third Nightwing: Dick Grayson
Fourth Nightwing: Chris Kent
None of whom is the actual Nightwing from ancient Kryptonese legends.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/S158s2.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightwing#Pre-Crisis

[shaxper]

Robin. Dick is Robin. Clark Kent is the one true Nightwing.

Either Dick is Robin, or change and progression are just fine.

That rocks so much.

You sum it up nicely. Dick is, almost by definition, an evolving character. Even as Robin, he was allowed to age while every other hero remained basically the same. What's so frustrating to watch as a Grayson fan (no, I will not call myself a "Dick fan" ;)) is that he hasn't done any real changing since Chuck Dixon. A lot of changes have been attempted, most notably including getting him out of Bludhaven, but nothing has really stuck to the character. He's becoming stagnant and repetitive, which is why this Batman thing really needs to stick.

[Nate Grey]

I'm not worried about Bruce returning, I'm worried about what will happen to Tim and Dick when he does. Hopefully they won't be killed off.

[STC]

I wouldnt mind Bruce back, but when he does come back why does he need to be Batman?

[carabas]

most notably including getting him out of Bludhaven...Doesn't count. Blüdhaven was blown up in the same story in which Dick was sheduled to die. DiDio changed his mind at the last possible minute, but too late to save Blüdhaven.

[DarienA]

I wouldnt mind Bruce back, but when he does come back why does he need to be Batman?

Would you rather see him take a Batman Beyond mentor type role? I don't think Dick needs that type of mentor anymore... what rule would you put Bruce in? Just the retired bat dude? ;) It would be nice to see him settle down and have a real relationship....

[celticguy]

I would like Bruce to come back at some point.. but I'm cool with the current situation. I'd like to see it play out over a year or so before Bruce returned...


yeah that!

[Buried Alien]

Yeah...eventually, Bruce will return as Batman, but I'm in no hurry for it to happen. Dick Grayson is doing great as Batman, and this time has been anticipated for decades. I'd like to see Dick Grayson serve as Batman for a long, long time before Bruce returns...maybe as long as a decade.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Personamanx]

I've never been remotely interseted in Bruce Wayne. Dick, and Tim have always been far more interesting to me. I wish he would stay gone, but I know that ain't happening.

[Don Quixote]

I prefer Dick as Nightwing, but I'm perfectly happy to see him wearing the cowl for the time being.

There's no way that DC aren't going to bring Bruce back at some point, so I'm not even considering an alternative. All I want is for Dick to be a success whilst he is Batman, that he isn't killed off, and that he can go back to being Nightwing afterwards.

The only way he stays as Batman is if Bruce comes back, but decides to retire from active superhero life. That's not very likely, either.

[TradePaperbackTraitor]

I want him back. Bruce Wayne is the man. Dick Grayson will always be an adult sidekick to me, although I really like that psychotic manchild Damian. He makes for great entertainment. I cracked up on that page in Batman and Robin where he was whacking away at the fat circus chick with the bucket on her head trying to get her to talk. I think the reason why I dig the new Red Robin series so much is because it's the only series of all the zillion Batman titles where someone actually believes Bruce Wayne is still alive and actively pursues him.

[Munkiman]

I definitely want Bruce back. But not immediately. Give it at least three to five years.

[celticguy]

First Nightwing: Clark Kent
Second Nightwing: Van-Zee
Third Nightwing: Dick Grayson
Fourth Nightwing: Chris Kent
None of whom is the actual Nightwing from ancient Kryptonese legends.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/S158s2.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightwing#Pre-Crisis

The Clark to Dick connection for nightwing was retconned I assume? When he first becasme nightwing I thought it was just a tip to batman.

Was it later revealed Supes told Robin these stories?

[RonnieThunderbolts]

The Clark to Dick connection for nightwing was retconned I assume? When he first becasme nightwing I thought it was just a tip to batman.

Was it later revealed Supes told Robin these stories?

In the current continuity Nightwing is a Kryptonian-inspired name. After Batman fired Dick Grayson and replaced him as Robin Dick was unsure what to do. Superman talked to Dick Grayson in a Chuck Dixon penned Nightwing Secret Files story where he mentioned the legend of an ancient Kryptonian vigilante whose title translated to Nightwing. Dixon revisits the same moment in Nightwing "Year One," issue 102 of Nightwing. Dick was moved by the story, a sort of a prodigal son deal where the vigilante was the black sheep of his family but did what he could to help others and did what he thought was right. He liked the sound of the name and the story and became Nightwing after a very brief return to Haly's Circus and some soul searching.

[carabas]

The Clark to Dick connection for nightwing was retconned I assume? When he first becasme nightwing I thought it was just a tip to batman.

Was it later revealed Supes told Robin these stories?I have no idea. As far as I know it was always superman telling Dick about the kryptonian Nightwing, but I have no idea if that was the original version or a retcon.

[Vidocq]

I can't believe how fast I got bored of this new status quo. I went from weary to excited to happy to bored in record time! The novelty of the whole thing is not good enough anymore and I want Bruce back. Dick was his own man, he didn't depend on Batman anymore. I want that dynamic back. This seems to me, as taking a step back with Dick's character.


I'm not giving up on Batman Reborn just yet. I will give a few series another try to see if they hooked me. But I'm prepared to drop them all (except maybe Detective Comics and maybe confidential) and finally catch up with Brubaker's Daredevil run.

[Rocket13]

B-B-B

Bring Back Bruce! And lose Damian at the same time. Dick is doing a good job, but he isn't Bruce.

[Mia]

I want Bruce back as soon as possible, I'm not really interested in a Batman that isn't Bruce Wayne. I like Grayson, and I loved him as Nightwing, but I'm not interested in him as the Batman.

Ditto. I agree. I mean besides watching Dick muddle through being Batman (which probably is entertaining in and of itself). I don't see the appeal of Dick being Batman. When we can already read about Dick as Nightwing.

[ryerye17]

Consider this another vote for the return of Bruce

[Protoman]

I don't want Bruce back ANYTIME soon

[Lew Moxon]

I've never liked Dick Grayson. There's just something about him that rubs me the wrong way. So I'd prefer Bruce to come back. With that said, I'd hate for my preferences to force an author's hand. So, while I'd like Bruce as soon as possible, it really depends on the story Morrison/whoever is trying to tell. At the same time I'd like Batman Confidential to become much better than it is, or else have some sort of "early days" series about a younger Bruce Wayne in the role. I know Confidential and All Star are supposed to fill that void, but Confidential is very hit or miss, and All Star is at best a parody and satire rather than a straight take on that time period.

Anyway, I think the best situation would be to have one series taking place in the "past" of Bruce Wayne's career, and another with Grayson in the role.

But maybe I'm just an idiot who can't stand change.

[Retro315]

I want Bruce back.

I'm cool with Dick as Batman - Morrison is killing it, Winnick is keeping up pretty well. I could live with him as Batman forever now - the problem being I've already got a lot of history with Bruce.

But I want Bruce back eventually, and more importantly, I'm super-super-super curious to see how Morrison actually does it. How he brings him back.How he PROVES Bruce is the world's smartest man and greatest detective by leaving "street" (read: Cave) level clues that stand the test of 12,000 years of time trapped between him and the present. What kind of statement that makes about Bruce himself. Because I love the kind of "man-god" depiction of Bruce Morrison ran with in JLA, I love how he used "the Devil" to deconstruct it, I love how now, Dick Grayson, his ward - his "little brother" who he raised - has to fill those shoes in the meantime.

And after that? How does Bruce readjust? With instant, Silver Age, things are back to status quo speed? Over a long, boring year of yet another "Batman's back, but he's got to regain his footing?"

[Babylon23]

Honestly, I've grown a little bored with Bruce. Years of Bat-dickery and uber-Bats really killed the character for me. While he'll eventually be back, I'd like to see him gone for a few years. I'm interested in seeing Dick as Batman and I'm enjoying DC's approach to this idea so far.

[CountAchilles]

I've always considered that Batman was no legacy,but an individual created by Bruce Wayne to fight crime and never let anyone suffer the same fate as him.

It was all Bruce there. The concept,the toys,the vehicles; everything.

So,Dick just won't ever be a right Batman,Nightwing is his like Batman is Bruce's identity.

Though,the way the fans are reacting to the new series might be 3-4 years before we see the return of Bruce Wayne/

[Buried Alien]

Honestly, I've grown a little bored with Bruce. Years of Bat-dickery and uber-Bats really killed the character for me. While he'll eventually be back, I'd like to see him gone for a few years. I'm interested in seeing Dick as Batman and I'm enjoying DC's approach to this idea so far.

I think that for many older fans (like myself), a great part of the appeal of having Dick Grayson as Batman is that Dick's Batman is reminiscent of what Bruce's Batman *used* to be: before KNIGHTFALL, A DEATH IN THE FAMILY, THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, YEAR ONE, and CRISIS. Dick's Batman is similar to the Bronze Age Bruce Batman.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Raptor]

No. Keep Bruce dead. Nightwing is doing fine as Batman, he still looks the same as Batman, and his return would only detract from the evolution of Grayson.

The sentence: "Nightwing is doing fine as Batman." tells me he isn't.

This says that people still associate Dick Grayson as...Nightwing, not Batman.

Batman is Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne is Batman.



I want Bruce back.


Somethings are classic and have no need for change.

Spider-Man- Peter Parker
Superman - Clark Kent
Steven Rogers - Captain America
Bruce Wayne - Batman

Just how it goes, really.

I don't ,mind Dick as batman, I like Bruce better.

I don't mind Dick as Nightwing.

But...

I really don't like the character Dick Grayson, I honestly only like him when he is out helping keep Gotham and Bludhaven safe. I find none of his secret identity interesting. (none of his social life, problems, interaction with others (similar to social life, but i think it's different in a sense)

Therefore that takes away some appeal from Batman for me.

[Infinity Man]

I'm still on the fence as to whether or not I like Dick as Batman. I just can't get past a Batman that is not Bruce. That said I don't want this to be the Bucky as Captain America thing, I want to see Dick as Batman for a little while at least, even if I don't really like him in the role. It shakes up the Batman portion of the DCU nicely, so that when Bruce does come back stability will actually be a change of pace.

[shaxper]

Batman is a character that's so highly up to interpretation in the first place that it almost hinders him to place him in continuity. Let Dick find his way in the regular DCU while simultaneously publishing non-continuity (or retro continuity) Bruce titles and mini-series that play to his many different facets -- Dark avenger, super detective, dynamic duo, team leader, etc. This would actually liberate the character to take on ALL of these facets instead of being restricted to one of them.

[Chiroptera]

Batman is a character that's so highly up to interpretation in the first place that it almost hinders him to place him in continuity. Let Dick find his way in the regular DCU while simultaneously publishing non-continuity (or retro continuity) Bruce titles and mini-series that play to his many different facets -- Dark avenger, super detective, dynamic duo, team leader, etc. This would actually liberate the character to take on ALL of these facets instead of being restricted to one of them.

I've long been and advocate of seeing more comics that are outside continuity.
It just gives the writer more freedom and keeps the character from being restricted by mandates with other books.

[Captain Jim]

It appears that we are divided on this issue. :biggrin:

[Chiroptera]

It appears that we are divided on this issue. :biggrin:

Who'da think everyone woudl haev their opinion on it, right Jim? :tongue: :wink:

[Chris S.]

As a new fan to Batman I don't see why DC would be in any rush to return him to the role. He has face time in other titles, but the mainstream ones leave it accesible for new readers. I have done a substantial amount of trade reading in the past month, but I don't mind one bit that Grayson is Batman. I actually really like it.

As long as they are selling books, which they clearly are, why would they even want to bring back Bruce from a business stand point?

[Mia]

I think that for many older fans (like myself), a great part of the appeal of having Dick Grayson as Batman is that Dick's Batman is reminiscent of what Bruce's Batman *used* to be: before KNIGHTFALL, A DEATH IN THE FAMILY, THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, YEAR ONE, and CRISIS. Dick's Batman is similar to the Bronze Age Bruce Batman.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Sorry...I don't get this. Are you telling me that prior to KNIGHTFALL, A DEATH IN THE FAMILY, THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, YEAR ONE, and CRISIS. Batman was a hand wring worry wart suffering from insecurity?

Don't get me wrong, I love Dick Grayson. But Dick is not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer. Sure he's a great athelete and a competent crime fighter and all around nice guy. But is he a master strategist, who strives to improve himself and who believes in himself? Naw that's not him. That's Bruce Wayne and that's who Batman is. And that is who Batman is supposed to be. That is why I want Bruce Wayne back.

[Jim Thompson]

Sorry...I don't get this. Are you telling me that prior to KNIGHTFALL, A DEATH IN THE FAMILY, THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, YEAR ONE, and CRISIS. Batman was a hand wring worry wart suffering from insecurity?

Don't get me wrong, I love Dick Grayson. But Dick is not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer. Sure he's a great athelete and a competent crime fighter and all around nice guy. But is he a master strategist, who strives to improve himself and who believes in himself? Naw that's not him. That's Bruce Wayne and that's who Batman is. And that is who Batman is supposed to be. That is why I want Bruce Wayne back.I think that's selling Grayson short. He's the guy Bruce chose to be the master strategist in the event of his death, after all -- as evidenced during the JLA storyline.

Grayson is different than Bruce -- I'm not sure he's less competent, as you seem to be suggesting here.

[Hullababy]

I like Dick as Batman. He is much more human than the Bruce Wayne of recent years. The whole batjerk version of Batman just ticks me off. When Bruce returns ( which is inevitable) I hope he returns much more "human" .

[shaxper]

Sorry...I don't get this. Are you telling me that prior to KNIGHTFALL, A DEATH IN THE FAMILY, THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, YEAR ONE, and CRISIS. Batman was a hand wring worry wart suffering from insecurity?

Don't get me wrong, I love Dick Grayson. But Dick is not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer. Sure he's a great athelete and a competent crime fighter and all around nice guy. But is he a master strategist, who strives to improve himself and who believes in himself? Naw that's not him. That's Bruce Wayne and that's who Batman is. And that is who Batman is supposed to be. That is why I want Bruce Wayne back.

There have been many times when Dick's cunning and intellect have been demonstrated. After all, you can't spend that long serving as Batman's hand-picked protege and not come out as the world's second best detective.

The hand-wringing and the failure to be as obsessed with improvement as Bruce was is Dick's strong point. He's the prodigal son, constantly fighting with himself over whether he wants to Become what Bruce was or resist it. In the end, it will make him a stronger and somewhat different Batman, but he'll fill the shoes nicely.

[Meadow]

To me, Bruce Wayne is the only true Batman. Perhaps the character hasn't been treated the best way possible in recent years, but still, I've basically grown up with him my whole life. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading about Dick as Batman. It successfully provides a fresh, new perspective to the whole Bat mythos. I don't want the man to return just yet, but I do want him back some day, maybe in five years.

[Mia]

I think that's selling Grayson short. He's the guy Bruce chose to be the master strategist in the event of his death, after all -- as evidenced during the JLA storyline.

Yeah but who else was he going to choose? It would only make sense for Bruce to turn to Dick given their relationship and history and familiarity with Gotham. I mean by all rights Bruce should ask Mr. Terrific or Hawkman two men who are far closer to him in intelligence and abilities and the willingness to get things done than Dick is. But that was not going to happen.




There have been many times when Dick's cunning and intellect have been demonstrated. After all, you can't spend that long serving as Batman's hand-picked protege and not come out as the world's second best detective.

Unless you are refering to 'All Star Batman and Robin'. Dick was never hand picked to be Batman's protege. Batman took Dick in because they shared the same tragedy. Bruce did not take Dick in based on his abilities. Just because you spend time with someone does not immediately mean that you are going to gain their abilities or level of intelligence.I think that Dick learned Detective and martial arts skills from Bruce. But he never gained his level of intelligence, or even his temperment. Bruce is way more pragmatic than Dick.

[Jim Thompson]

Yeah but who else was he going to choose? It would only make sense for Bruce to turn to Dick given their relationship and history and familiarity with Gotham. I mean by all rights Bruce should ask Mr. Terrific or Hawkman two men who are far closer to him in intelligence and abilities and the willingness to get things done than Dick is. But that was not going to happen.You've given some of the other people he could have chosen -- but the fact he didn't is an indication of how Wayne looked at Grayson's abilities, that he held them in high regard.

[shaxper]

Unless you are refering to 'All Star Batman and Robin'. Dick was never hand picked to be Batman's protege. Batman took Dick in because they shared the same tragedy. Bruce did not take Dick in based on his abilities. Just because you spend time with someone does not immediately mean that you are going to gain their abilities or level of intelligence.I think that Dick learned Detective and martial arts skills from Bruce. But he never gained his level of intelligence, or even his temperment. Bruce is way more pragmatic than Dick.


It's been a while since I read Detective Comics #38, but virtually every retelling of the story that I'm familiar with has Bruce take the boy in out of sympathy, but ultimately take him on as a sidekick based both upon his physical prowess and a sense that Bruce has about him.

Ultimately, this will turn into a nature vs. nurture debate, but if you take a relatively capable child and put him in the hands of a mentor/father figure who will work him incredibly hard, providing the best quality tutoring, high motivation ("you get to go out with me and fight crime"), and impossible expectations, and the end result will be damned impressive.

Mr. Terrific is undoubtedly smarter than Dick, but that doesn't mean he has the skills necessary to do the job. No one understands Bruce's mentality, approach, and style better than Dick.

And, honestly, would we really want someone taking over and going "This is easy!" right off the bat? That would be an insult. Dick's initial insecurity is a high tribute to the legend whose shoes he is trying to fill.

[Mundungus]

Not necessarily, because I really like the Dick/Damien dynamic so far. Though the only book I'm really reading of them is Batman and Robin, and from other books I've tried out they don't seem to be able to capture the same charm that Morrison and Quitely can.

[stillanerd]

The thing we all have to keep in mind here is that even the writers acknowledge that Batman isn't Batman if he's not Bruce Wayne. That's the whole point behind "Batman Reborn" in the first place--that while Dick Grayson may appear to have the right qualifications, experience, and training to take on the mantle, he's still pretending to be someone else rather than his own person, has to behave uncharacteristically in order to pull it off, and Dick is fully aware of this. The conflict here is that after years of trying to get out from under Bruce's shadow, Dick is now being consumed by it, sacrificing his own individuality and personality in order to carry on a "dead man's" legacy. It's an interesting concept to be sure for about a year or so, but not something I don't think can be sustained for the long term.

[shaxper]

The thing we all have to keep in mind here is that even the writers acknowledge that Batman isn't Batman if he's not Bruce Wayne. That's the whole point behind "Batman Reborn" in the first place--that while Dick Grayson may appear to have the right qualifications, experience, and training to take on the mantle, he's still pretending to be someone else rather than his own person, has to behave uncharacteristically in order to pull it off, and Dick is fully aware of this. The conflict here is that after years of trying to get out from under Bruce's shadow, Dick is now being consumed by it, sacrificing his own individuality and personality in order to carry on a "dead man's" legacy. It's an interesting concept to be sure for about a year or so, but not something I don't think can be sustained for the long term.

Or the struggle will end when Dick learns how to make Batman his own. That's what I loved about that moment where Dini had him smiling as he fought. It's classic Dick.

Dick Grayson's is the classic story of the eldest son. He's been pressured, from the get-go to follow in his father's footsteps, but he wants to carve a separate destiny for himself. Inevitably, the son can't just run in the opposite direction, though. He will eventually have to assume his father's role as head of the family, but in doing so, he must also realize that he will never be his father. He must make the role his own.

This is what I find so compelling about Dick. He was rebelling when I was rebelling in my teens, forging his own identity and finding his own life when I was forging my own identity and finding my own life in my twenties, but Dick has stopped growing while my life has continued to progress. I've since had to make peace with the fatherly shadow that I was running from -- to claim parts of it that belonged with me, to deny other parts, and to bring parts that are uniquely me to it as well.

If comics really aren't for kids anymore, if we're speaking to adults here, then it's time for Dick to become a real adult, and that means no more running from Daddy's shadow because, ultimately, all eldest sons must eventually take his place.

[Chien Andalusia]

One particularly nice thing about Dick being Batman is that there's less of the overbearing intensity about the character, he's not just some crazed rich loner that his denied himself of most pleasures in life so he can beat the snot out of criminals. Sometimes the Bruce character can be treated in quite a very one dimensional manner while I feel there's a lot more to work with when it comes to Dick. There's more there than psychological trauma and years of martial arts training. I also really enjoy the dynamic between himself and Damian as Robin where he's trying to somehow lighten up his intense child sidekick.
I also believe that Bruce's absence has freed up the Bat franchise a great deal and given it a chance to breathe and to try new things out(it's certainly being handled a lot better than the post Knightfall era). Detective Comics has lifted itself out of being "just another Batman comic" under Greg Rucka and J.H. Williams III's Batwoman arc. Grant Morrison's Batman and Robin is action packed yet really offers up a lot of characterisation. Dini's Streets Of Gotham, while a Batman title, makes the eponymous city the star of the piece. In fact the main "Batman" title may be the weakest of the bunch at the moment.
This doesn't make me a Bruce hater, hell he's the definitive Batman that we all grew up with, but it's nice to see something different being done with that legacy. When Bruce does come back, I hope this break will give writers a chance to have a fresh perspective on the character and do new interesting things with him. Meanwhile, as long as the current status quo remains interesting and well written, I shan't complain about it.

[Mia]

You've given some of the other people he could have chosen -- but the fact he didn't is an indication of how Wayne looked at Grayson's abilities, that he held them in high regard.

Oh I forgot to mention that Bruce knew that Mr. Terrific probably would have said he no because he was too busy with the JSA. And he and Hawkman hate each others guts. So Batman would never have turned to him.

Dick was the only one to turn to. Not to mention that Dick already is the most familiar person with Gotham City. So it basically went to Dick by default.

But to bottom line my point. Batman has always meant to be 'the pinnacle of man' someone extraordinary. Not 'Joe average' who basically Dick is. Dick Grayson is essentially Peter Parker with more confidence.

The thing we all have to keep in mind here is that even the writers acknowledge that Batman isn't Batman if he's not Bruce Wayne. That's the whole point behind "Batman Reborn" in the first place--that while Dick Grayson may appear to have the right qualifications, experience, and training to take on the mantle, he's still pretending to be someone else rather than his own person, has to behave uncharacteristically in order to pull it off, and Dick is fully aware of this. The conflict here is that after years of trying to get out from under Bruce's shadow, Dick is now being consumed by it, sacrificing his own individuality and personality in order to carry on a "dead man's" legacy. It's an interesting concept to be sure for about a year or so, but not something I don't think can be sustained for the long term.

Brilliant!

[carabas]

'Joe average' who basically Dick is. Dick Grayson is essentially Peter Parker with more confidence.Neither Grayson nor Parker are even on the same planet as Joe Average.

[Excelsior Prime]

I'm still reeling from DC's "thinking" that led to this situation.

The classic Bat-titles were more exciting then they'd been in years. Even Morrison's overrated stories were amusing, while Dini's Detective was perfection, the ultimate portrayal of the character in many ways.

The same was true of the \S/ titles. Then DC decides..."let's jettison all this and do something else!"

It's cost them a lot of readers. I'm among them. I no longer pick up Batman, 'Tec, Action, or Superman, and I won't until Superman and The Batman are back where they belong.

Oh, and Bruce Wayne IS The Batman. Batman is NOT a legacy character and never will/can be.

You want legacy characters, look elsewhere.

Same with Captain America...

[DarienA]

The thing we all have to keep in mind here is that even the writers acknowledge that Batman isn't Batman if he's not Bruce Wayne. That's the whole point behind "Batman Reborn" in the first place--that while Dick Grayson may appear to have the right qualifications, experience, and training to take on the mantle, he's still pretending to be someone else rather than his own person, has to behave uncharacteristically in order to pull it off, and Dick is fully aware of this. The conflict here is that after years of trying to get out from under Bruce's shadow, Dick is now being consumed by it, sacrificing his own individuality and personality in order to carry on a "dead man's" legacy. It's an interesting concept to be sure for about a year or so, but not something I don't think can be sustained for the long term.


Very well said.

[numberONE]

No. Not yet.

[BeastieRunner]

BBB!

Bring Back Bruce!

[nepenthes]

BBQ!

barbecue sauce

[Babylon23]

It's cost them a lot of readers. I'm among them. I no longer pick up Batman, 'Tec, Action, or Superman, and I won't until Superman and The Batman are back where they belong.

It's cost them readers? Batman & Robin #2 sold 117,000 copies in July. Batman was selling around 70,000 copies a month before RIP and is selling around 80,000 now. Detective around 50,000 prior to RIP and 61,000 now.

Sales on Action have definitely dropped (by about 10,000), but Superman sales are approximate to what they were a year ago. There's also World of New Krypton, so DC are getting more sales by introducing a new title to the mix.

Seems like the numbers suggest the move is working for DC right now, certainly with Batman at least. Not that it really matters, since this is clearly not a long-term move on DC's part. Both Clark and Bruce will eventually return to the title.

[Babylon23]

I think that for many older fans (like myself), a great part of the appeal of having Dick Grayson as Batman is that Dick's Batman is reminiscent of what Bruce's Batman *used* to be: before KNIGHTFALL, A DEATH IN THE FAMILY, THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, YEAR ONE, and CRISIS. Dick's Batman is similar to the Bronze Age Bruce Batman.

That's definitely part of it. I found it harder to relate to the unbeatable, ultra-crazy Batman of the 90's and early 2000's. But it's also the lack of storytelling options. There's only so far you can go with pushing Batman to the edge of sanity and I felt like that had been done to death.

Sorry...I don't get this. Are you telling me that prior to KNIGHTFALL, A DEATH IN THE FAMILY, THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, YEAR ONE, and CRISIS. Batman was a hand wring worry wart suffering from insecurity?

No, he was an intense vigilante but not an isolated psychopath barely recognisable from the villains he fought. Nor was he the unbeatable, 20-steps ahead of everybody else character who can never be truly beaten so therefore there's no real dramatic tension in his stories.

The post Dark Knight take on Batman grew very stale after a while and I'm glad to see a different approach being taken with this character.

[Damiean Dark]

Originally Posted by stillanerd
The thing we all have to keep in mind here is that even the writers acknowledge that Batman isn't Batman if he's not Bruce Wayne. That's the whole point behind "Batman Reborn" in the first place--that while Dick Grayson may appear to have the right qualifications, experience, and training to take on the mantle, he's still pretending to be someone else rather than his own person, has to behave uncharacteristically in order to pull it off, and Dick is fully aware of this. The conflict here is that after years of trying to get out from under Bruce's shadow, Dick is now being consumed by it, sacrificing his own individuality and personality in order to carry on a "dead man's" legacy. It's an interesting concept to be sure for about a year or so, but not something I don't think can be sustained for the long term.

Exactly right Dick chose to be his own man and become Nightwing he isnt batman im just waiting to see all these fans of Dick Grayson who say its the character and not the suit buy Nightwing books when he returns to what he is.

I have a sneaking suspicion they wont buy it in droves no matter how good it is.

[nepenthes]

^ maybe that's because the concept behind Batman Reborn has a second layer of conflict that can'tbe offered in a Nightwing solo book. People want to read about Nightwing trying to be Batman. Not necersarrily Nightwing on his own. there's a huge difference.

[Werehunter]

The thing we all have to keep in mind here is that even the writers acknowledge that Batman isn't Batman if he's not Bruce Wayne. That's the whole point behind "Batman Reborn" in the first place--that while Dick Grayson may appear to have the right qualifications, experience, and training to take on the mantle, he's still pretending to be someone else rather than his own person, has to behave uncharacteristically in order to pull it off, and Dick is fully aware of this. The conflict here is that after years of trying to get out from under Bruce's shadow, Dick is now being consumed by it, sacrificing his own individuality and personality in order to carry on a "dead man's" legacy. It's an interesting concept to be sure for about a year or so, but not something I don't think can be sustained for the long term.

This is the main reason I don't like this direction. They could have been using this time to build up the Nightwing persona. Showing him pulling the extended Bat family, who Bruce had in some ways push apart over the last few years, together into a force to protect Gotham. But instead they make him Batman, something DC has had Dick admit several times in the past that he's can't be. Pus I really can't see a way to put Bruce back in the Cowl that doesn't make Dick look bad.

[carabas]

Exactly right Dick chose to be his own man...
Becoming your own man isn't just wearing a different set of spandex than your 'father'.
It is also doing your duty when it comes calling. Somebody has to be Batman. No two ways about it. Dick Grayson is the best person for the job. also no two ways about it. To do anything different than stepping up and doing what needs to be done would be a very un-Grayson thing to do.

His challenge now is remaining his own man while wearing a Batman costume, rather than becoming Bruce-Light. As has been stressed in most of the books.

[Jim Thompson]

Becoming your own man isn't just wearing a different set of spandex than your 'father'.
It is also doing your duty when it comes calling. Somebody has to be Batman. No two ways about it. Dick Grayson is the best person for the job. also no two ways about it. To do anything different than stepping up and doing what needs to be done would be a very un-Grayson thing to do.

His challenge now is remaining his own man while wearing a Batman costume, rather than becoming Bruce-Light. As has been stressed in most of the books.I agree -- though I also think the creators are getting the audience ready for Dick to redesign the costume toward something that better suits his particular strengths, likes and abilities.

[CountAchilles]

I agree -- though I also think the creators are getting the audience ready for Dick to redesign the costume toward something that better suits his particular strengths, likes and abilities.

Knightfall redux? Don't think so .

Even though,I thought Valley's Bat costume was amazingly cool,I just don't think Dick is "insane" enough to design a completely new Bat-suit yet.

[Jim Thompson]

Knightfall redux? Don't think so .

Even though,I thought Valley's Bat costume was amazingly cool,I just don't think Dick is "insane" enough to design a completely new Bat-suit yet.No, not Knightfall Redux -- more like Batman Beyond. :biggrin:

[Mia]

No, he was an intense vigilante but not an isolated psychopath barely recognisable from the villains he fought. Nor was he the unbeatable, 20-steps ahead of everybody else character who can never be truly beaten so therefore there's no real dramatic tension in his stories.

The post Dark Knight take on Batman grew very stale after a while and I'm glad to see a different approach being taken with this character.



So basically you like Dick as Batman because he's jolly and isn't competent?

[Jorriss]

So basically you like Dick as Batman because he's jolly and isn't competent?
Where'd you get isn't competent out of that?

[carabas]

There is a huge difference between 'jolly' and over the top Grimdark.
Ther is also a huge difference between 'incompetent' and 'outwitted the devil and killed Darkseid'.

Batman used to be a somewhat grim and very competent crimefighter. Then Miller happened and he become the Divine Bat-Dick. Good riddance.

[Jorriss]

Batman used to be a somewhat grim and very competent crimefighter. Then Miller happened and he become the Divine Bat-Dick. Good riddance.
I don't know if I dislike Batgod, or I dislike how inconsistent it made him. For example, as superman noted, he has a plan for if the President is kidnapped to another dimension, and yet he can't fix Gotham...

[Mia]

Where'd you get isn't competent out of that?

Here's the post:

No, he was an intense vigilante but not an isolated psychopath barely recognisable from the villains he fought. Nor was he the unbeatable, 20-steps ahead of everybody else character who can never be truly beaten so therefore there's no real dramatic tension in his stories.




The poster is saying that he wants to see Batman get beaten. The reason why Batman (Bruce Wayne) has been so successfull is that he is a strategic thinker who thinks of the various dangers and problems that he can encounter and makes plans in how to deal with it. Which is actually common sense given the fact he has no super powers and can get hurt. He needs an advantage. For Batman to go out and decide to fight crime without a plan ahead of time would be absolutely stupid.


However it seems as if some readers equate planning and foresight with being perfect and unbeatable. To them it's much more fun to read about Batman falling on his face and messing up and struggling with his self esteem.

[Jorriss]

For Batman to go out and decide to fight crime without a plan ahead of time would be absolutely stupid..
Because clearly he was stating Dick should go fight without a game plan.

[Pól Rua]

Robin. Dick is Robin. Clark Kent is the one true Nightwing.
Either Dick is Robin, or change and progression are just fine.

This is beautiful.
Brought a tear to my eye, it did.

But yeah, we all know Bruce will be back to being Batman. Anyone who doesn't is (a) deluding themselves, or (b) eight (in which case, shhh! don't give it away).
Hopefully Dick will last long enough to have some interesting and fun stories, grow and develop as a character and be entertaining as hell in the meantime.

I don't see what the fuss is about.

[Mia]

Because clearly he was stating Dick should go fight without a game plan.

Yeah which is generally what happens when someone gets beaten wink:

[MikeCr]

This is beautiful.
Brought a tear to my eye, it did.

But yeah, we all know Bruce will be back to being Batman. Anyone who doesn't is (a) deluding themselves, or (b) eight (in which case, shhh! don't give it away).
Hopefully Dick will last long enough to have some interesting and fun stories, grow and develop as a character and be entertaining as hell in the meantime.

I don't see what the fuss is about.
You're being too reasonable.

If the stories aren't exactly what you want (or, in most cases, if we're being honest here, exactly what you would have done) then it's your duty to pre-emptively complain about it on the internet.

I just want good stories. I don't even care if they're Batman stories. Heck, one of the best Batman issues I've read in the last decade had Damian as Batman!

[CountAchilles]

This is beautiful.
Brought a tear to my eye, it did.

But yeah, we all know Bruce will be back to being Batman. Anyone who doesn't is (a) deluding themselves, or (b) eight (in which case, shhh! don't give it away).
Hopefully Dick will last long enough to have some interesting and fun stories, grow and develop as a character and be entertaining as hell in the meantime.

I don't see what the fuss is about.

Well,who didn't get teary-eyed after reading that.

On another note,yeah that's inevitable but the fuss here is that some people just dont want him to, they think DC has hit the right note by handing over the cowl to Dick and that should continue forever. They simple don't want their dream bubble to burst,which it will,sooner or later.

[stillanerd]

Or the struggle will end when Dick learns how to make Batman his own. That's what I loved about that moment where Dini had him smiling as he fought. It's classic Dick.

Dick Grayson's is the classic story of the eldest son. He's been pressured, from the get-go to follow in his father's footsteps, but he wants to carve a separate destiny for himself. Inevitably, the son can't just run in the opposite direction, though. He will eventually have to assume his father's role as head of the family, but in doing so, he must also realize that he will never be his father. He must make the role his own.

This is what I find so compelling about Dick. He was rebelling when I was rebelling in my teens, forging his own identity and finding his own life when I was forging my own identity and finding my own life in my twenties, but Dick has stopped growing while my life has continued to progress. I've since had to make peace with the fatherly shadow that I was running from -- to claim parts of it that belonged with me, to deny other parts, and to bring parts that are uniquely me to it as well.

If comics really aren't for kids anymore, if we're speaking to adults here, then it's time for Dick to become a real adult, and that means no more running from Daddy's shadow because, ultimately, all eldest sons must eventually take his place.

Which is all well and good, but here's the thing--in some ways, Dick was able to carry on Batman's mission by his own terms as Nightwing and Bruce had already came to terms with this. Remember Battle for the Cowl #3? Bruce in his will specifically told Dick NOT to carry on "the mission" as Batman, not because he didn't think Dick couldn't handle the job of being Batman, but because he didn't want to saddle Dick with that kind of burden after Dick had spent so many years forging his own identity and path as Nightwing, that he respected Dick as an individual with his own dreams and goals as well as his successor. And Dick respected Bruce's wishes until he realized Bruce miscalculated the impact Batman had on Gotham.

So from the outset, Dick had to sacrifice his individuality for the sake of the common good, and that act of heroism could, ironically, lead to further tragedy down the road. Why? Because the one quality Dick does not have which is essential to be Batman is the ability to instill fear. Bruce may have had difficulty getting along with others because he was intimidating, but his use of intimidation was very effective because he understood the usage of fear was a far more effective weapon than any of his gadgets, that it can mean the difference between life and death. Sure, Dick can use tactics like hanging suspects to think he'll drop them or making threats, but even he admits it's all an act because that's not what he's really like as a person. He's upbeat and friendly, a guy who likes to work with others, can't resist being in the spotlight, and sees crimefighting as an adventure.

And that's going to be his Achilles heel, because as much as he tries to make Batman his own, his true personality, no matter much he tries to mask it, will leak out and the edge Batman had of being seen as someone to fear, someone who seemed more than just a mere superhero, who seemed more supernatural than a man, will be lost with Dick. Two-Face and Commissioner Gordon figuring out "Batman" is not the real Batman--that's only the beginning. And I think it will lead to Dick's eventual downfall prior to Bruce coming back: that by trying too hard to pretend to be someone else for the greater good, by not being an individual and carrying on Bruce's wishes, things in Gotham will gradually take a turn for the worse because the criminal underworld will learn not to be afraid of Batman so that even the villains who are not insane will become more brazen.

[Kasper Cole]

I want Bruce, back, but not for a good long time...at least make it so that his return in meaningful.

[Chiroptera]

Which is all well and good, but here's the thing--in some ways, Dick was able to carry on Batman's mission by his own terms as Nightwing and Bruce had already came to terms with this. Remember Battle for the Cowl #3? Bruce in his will specifically told Dick NOT to carry on "the mission" as Batman, not because he didn't think Dick couldn't handle the job of being Batman, but because he didn't want to saddle Dick with that kind of burden after Dick had spent so many years forging his own identity and path as Nightwing, that he respected Dick as an individual with his own dreams and goals as well as his successor. And Dick respected Bruce's wishes until he realized Bruce miscalculated the impact Batman had on Gotham.

So from the outset, Dick had to sacrifice his individuality for the sake of the common good, and that act of heroism could, ironically, lead to further tragedy down the road. Why? Because the one quality Dick does not have which is essential to be Batman is the ability to instill fear. Bruce may have had difficulty getting along with others because he was intimidating, but his use of intimidation was very effective because he understood the usage of fear was a far more effective weapon than any of his gadgets, that it can mean the difference between life and death. Sure, Dick can use tactics like hanging suspects to think he'll drop them or making threats, but even he admits it's all an act because that's not what he's really like as a person. He's upbeat and friendly, a guy who likes to work with others, can't resist being in the spotlight, and sees crimefighting as an adventure.

And that's going to be his Achilles heel, because as much as he tries to make Batman his own, his true personality, no matter much he tries to mask it, will leak out and the edge Batman had of being seen as someone to fear, someone who seemed more than just a mere superhero, who seemed more supernatural than a man, will be lost with Dick. Two-Face and Commissioner Gordon figuring out "Batman" is not the real Batman--that's only the beginning. And I think it will lead to Dick's eventual downfall prior to Bruce coming back: that by trying too hard to pretend to be someone else for the greater good, by not being an individual and carrying on Bruce's wishes, things in Gotham will gradually take a turn for the worse because the criminal underworld will learn not to be afraid of Batman so that even the villains who are not insane will become more brazen.


This is pretty much what I expect will happen; it's just seemed like the set up from the get go. I even expect Morrison's the genius behind the whole plot point, because he did make a pretty big point of showing that Batman's fear factor was a big part of his power.
Sure the new villains being introduced are facing off against the new Batman and it seems stable enough, but once the older villains start regularly encountering Batman again, I think things are going to turn south. Two-Face saw through it so quickly, I'm curious to see how the other big names of the Gotham Rogues will handle a new Batman; it's one of the few things I'm anticipating in the bat corner of the DCU right now.

[bulletproofsponge]

He doesn't HAVE to come back. But it would be cool to bring him back one day. When Dick is having some problems and all of the sudden * poof* bruce is there. and scares off the bad guys again.

Not that Dick isnt doing a gr8 job. But I guess it'll kinda be like when Barry Allen came back. - No one runs like he does.

[lggp]

Well speaking of that i actually don't like Barry coming back

[carabas]

I don't like Barry back either.
And I was perfectly fine with Kyle Rayner. Or Conner Hawke and Cassandra Cain for that matter.

[Kiryu]

I don't like Barry back either.
And I was perfectly fine with Kyle Rayner. Or Conner Hawke and Cassandra Cain for that matter.

I STRONGLY agree.

[carabas]

It's like all of the characters I loved when I started reading superhero comics some ten years ago are going byebye en lieu of some dead antiques that have been dug up out of misplaced nostalgia, and frankly, it is getting frelling annoying.

[Mia]

Which is all well and good, but here's the thing--in some ways, Dick was able to carry on Batman's mission by his own terms as Nightwing and Bruce had already came to terms with this. Remember Battle for the Cowl #3? Bruce in his will specifically told Dick NOT to carry on "the mission" as Batman, not because he didn't think Dick couldn't handle the job of being Batman, but because he didn't want to saddle Dick with that kind of burden after Dick had spent so many years forging his own identity and path as Nightwing, that he respected Dick as an individual with his own dreams and goals as well as his successor. And Dick respected Bruce's wishes until he realized Bruce miscalculated the impact Batman had on Gotham.

So from the outset, Dick had to sacrifice his individuality for the sake of the common good, and that act of heroism could, ironically, lead to further tragedy down the road. Why? Because the one quality Dick does not have which is essential to be Batman is the ability to instill fear. Bruce may have had difficulty getting along with others because he was intimidating, but his use of intimidation was very effective because he understood the usage of fear was a far more effective weapon than any of his gadgets, that it can mean the difference between life and death. Sure, Dick can use tactics like hanging suspects to think he'll drop them or making threats, but even he admits it's all an act because that's not what he's really like as a person. He's upbeat and friendly, a guy who likes to work with others, can't resist being in the spotlight, and sees crimefighting as an adventure.

And that's going to be his Achilles heel, because as much as he tries to make Batman his own, his true personality, no matter much he tries to mask it, will leak out and the edge Batman had of being seen as someone to fear, someone who seemed more than just a mere superhero, who seemed more supernatural than a man, will be lost with Dick. Two-Face and Commissioner Gordon figuring out "Batman" is not the real Batman--that's only the beginning. And I think it will lead to Dick's eventual downfall prior to Bruce coming back: that by trying too hard to pretend to be someone else for the greater good, by not being an individual and carrying on Bruce's wishes, things in Gotham will gradually take a turn for the worse because the criminal underworld will learn not to be afraid of Batman so that even the villains who are not insane will become more brazen.

This is very insightful and very true. Further it completely explains why I don't like Dick Grayson as Batman. Or want him to continue on as Batman.

When I think of the word 'Batman' I think of a man with an ego as big as a mountain and an unquenchable belief in himself. I think of a genius, and unstoppable force who will do whatever it takes to get the job done. It's not the fact that he dresses up as a Bat that makes him so scarry. It's his spirit.


As much as I love Dick Grayson. He just doesn't measure up. He can play at the being Batman. But he will never be Batman. His b@lls are just not big enough. There are only two characters in the DCU who could comfortably take over Batman's role. The first one is Hawkman the second is Black Adam.

[Captain Jim]

It's like all of the characters I loved when I started reading superhero comics some ten years ago are going byebye ... and frankly, it is getting frelling annoying.

This is pretty funny; some other people had the same feeling when Barry, Hal and Ollie were "killed off." At least your favorites are still among the living.

[carabas]

There is no 'living' or 'dead' in comics.
There is only in print or not.

But yeah, at least some of them have supporting roles in their former books now. And some of them were less lucky and met with fates worse than mere comic death or limbo.

[BooCoo]

One particularly nice thing about Dick being Batman is that there's less of the overbearing intensity about the character, he's not just some crazed rich loner that his denied himself of most pleasures in life so he can beat the snot out of criminals. Sometimes the Bruce character can be treated in quite a very one dimensional manner while I feel there's a lot more to work with when it comes to Dick. There's more there than psychological trauma and years of martial arts training. I also really enjoy the dynamic between himself and Damian as Robin where he's trying to somehow lighten up his intense child sidekick.
I also believe that Bruce's absence has freed up the Bat franchise a great deal and given it a chance to breathe and to try new things out(it's certainly being handled a lot better than the post Knightfall era). Detective Comics has lifted itself out of being "just another Batman comic" under Greg Rucka and J.H. Williams III's Batwoman arc. Grant Morrison's Batman and Robin is action packed yet really offers up a lot of characterisation. Dini's Streets Of Gotham, while a Batman title, makes the eponymous city the star of the piece. In fact the main "Batman" title may be the weakest of the bunch at the moment.
This doesn't make me a Bruce hater, hell he's the definitive Batman that we all grew up with, but it's nice to see something different being done with that legacy. When Bruce does come back, I hope this break will give writers a chance to have a fresh perspective on the character and do new interesting things with him. Meanwhile, as long as the current status quo remains interesting and well written, I shan't complain about it.

Also remember that the current 'incarnation' of Bruce isn't the original or definitive one. It became trendy to portray Bruce as excessively one dimensional and cardboard cutout once the so called 'darker' and 'edgier' trends in comics became the norm. Read earlier batman and you'll see a more interesting overall bruce wayne, with more storylines giving more dimension to the character. There was no "separation" between Bruce and his alter ego. Again, that gimmick came later and everyone ran with it like it was original canon or something.

[Babylon23]

So basically you like Dick as Batman because he's jolly and isn't competent?

Not at all. Firstly, Dick isn't jolly, so that argument doesn't work. Secondly, you can still be competent without being unbeatable. An unbeatable Batman isn't interesting to me. There's no dramatic tension in the storytelling if Batman is always 20 steps ahead of everybody else.

The poster is saying that he wants to see Batman get beaten. The reason why Batman (Bruce Wayne) has been so successfull is that he is a strategic thinker who thinks of the various dangers and problems that he can encounter and makes plans in how to deal with it. Which is actually common sense given the fact he has no super powers and can get hurt. He needs an advantage. For Batman to go out and decide to fight crime without a plan ahead of time would be absolutely stupid.


However it seems as if some readers equate planning and foresight with being perfect and unbeatable. To them it's much more fun to read about Batman falling on his face and messing up and struggling with his self esteem.

That's an...interesting interpretation of what I was saying but far removed from my actual comments. I have no problem with a thinking, strategic Batman. My problem is with an unbeatable Batman.

[CountAchilles]

I have no problem with a thinking, strategic Batman. My problem is with an unbeatable Batman.

If Bruce was unbeatable,he wouldn't have been broken into two by Bane or let Jason Todd die,when he was busy covering up his identity instead.

Let's face it,Bruce is a long way from unbeatable. His flaws are what make him more interesting.

And he is much more flawed than Dick.

[Hannah]

For me it comes down to this question...

Will dick Grayson, as Batman, do whatever it takes to get the job done? IE: O.M.A.C. system ot he JLA contingency plan.

I don't think he will but we all know Bruce did.

What happens now if Superman goes insane? Are any of the heroes prepared to stop him?

[Jorriss]

If Bruce was unbeatable,he wouldn't have been broken into two by Bane or let Jason Todd die,when he was busy covering up his identity instead.

Let's face it,Bruce is a long way from unbeatable. His flaws are what make him more interesting.

And he is much more flawed than Dick.
He didn't suggest Batman was universally unbeatable, only that he dislikes it when batman is characterized as unbeatable. It seems clear then he isn't referring to times when batman has been beaten.

[Werehunter]

For me it comes down to this question...

Will dick Grayson, as Batman, do whatever it takes to get the job done? IE: O.M.A.C. system ot he JLA contingency plan.


I don't think he will but we all know Bruce did.

Please tell me how these got the job done considering someone stole them and used them against the heroes and even Batman himself? Oh yeah, and the JLA contingency plan didn't work.

What happens now if Superman goes insane? Are any of the heroes prepared to stop him?

The same thing they did when Black Adam went insane. Throw everything at him until he's beaten. Hell really it would only take a handful of the most powerful heroes, including the magical ones, to take down Superman. You don't need a plan that someone can steal.

[CountAchilles]

The same thing they did when Black Adam went insane. Throw everything at him until he's beaten. Hell really it would only take a handful of the most powerful heroes, including the magical ones, to take down Superman. You don't need a plan that someone can steal.

This is Superman for God's sake. The Black Adam trick wont work on him,you saw the way Superboy-Prime took an entire fleet on Green Lanterns out on his own and only with his ice-breath. Kent can do a lot of harm,before he's stopped. Only,Bruce would've put him down without a thought.The guy does what's right,never mind the sacrifices.

Dick, not so much. He'd have tried to talk to him,instead.

[Buried Alien]

This is Superman for God's sake. The Black Adam trick wont work on him,you saw the way Superboy-Prime took an entire fleet on Green Lanterns out on his own and only with his ice-breath.

Superboy-Prime had Pre-COIE Kryptonian power levels, which coupled with his insanity, made him more dangerous than the New Earth Superman could ever be.

J'Onn, Captain Marvel, and Wonder Woman have comparable strength and endurance levels. Two of them are magical beings, and one has telepathic abilities against which Superman has no defense. Throw in a GL and a Flash, and taking Superman down isn't inconceivable.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[CountAchilles]

Superboy-Prime had Pre-COIE Kryptonian power levels, which coupled with his insanity, made him more dangerous than the New Earth Superman could ever be.


We are talking about an insane Superman here,aren't we?

[carabas]

Being insane does not really make you more powerful. Superboy Prime was almost exponentially more powerful than post-Crisis Superman.

Anyway, any number of heroes can take down Superman. Wonder Woman has taken down an enraged, out of control Superman solo. And she was holding back. The Flash could take him all by himself as well.

[Hannah]

Superman, being insane, would not fight as those who know him best would expect so he would take out some just from the element of the surprise of him being in such a condition. But thats not even my point. I wasn't debating on how easy someone could take out Superman or anyone else or that the plans had never been stolen or backfired. Having the ability to do it and having the resolve to do it are two far different things.

My point was out of all the heroes in the DCU, only Bruce thought that the day might come that the JLA/Superman/Any other super powerful being might need to be taken down. Others would take down insane Superman if only nother option existed where Bruce would do it before things got so out of hand that the rest felt the need to do so.

Bruce will do what is needed no matter what and that is what everyone expects from Batman. Dick won't ever be able to do that. It's just not him.

[CountAchilles]

Being insane does not really make you more powerful. Superboy Prime was almost exponentially more powerful than post-Crisis Superman.

Anyway, any number of heroes can take down Superman. Wonder Woman has taken down an enraged, out of control Superman solo. And she was holding back. The Flash could take him all by himself as well.

It does,if you have no grasp of right or wrong,you can do amazing things;often very destructive things. And this is Superman,who knows what all things he's capable of doing,once he starts "enjoying" his powers.

And sorry,my man,but Wonder Woman took down a "mind-controlled" Superman,it was all Maxwell Lord there,if Superman had used his own mind to that effect,then the Amazon would've been dust,trust me.

[Jorriss]

What? Dick doesn't know about kryptonite or something? It would be quite easy to stop Superman imo.

[CountAchilles]

What? Dick doesn't know about kryptonite or something? It would be quite easy to stop Superman imo.

Yes,you're right.

Kryptonite's very easy to obtain,isn't it?

In fact,I'm sure most of Metropolis' grocers sell it in bulk.

[Jorriss]

Yes,Kryptonite's very common,isn't it?
We're talking about Dick Grayson though. You honestly think he can't get, or doesn't already have some? Perhaps it is too far a leap to assume he could get it, but it seems reasonable.

[Mia]

Not at all. Firstly, Dick isn't jolly, so that argument doesn't work.

Yes it does. What books have you been reading? Dick is optimistic, positive, jovial, ebullient, all words which are euphemisms for jolly.



Secondly, you can still be competent without being unbeatable. An unbeatable Batman isn't interesting to me. There's no dramatic tension in the storytelling if Batman is always 20 steps ahead of everybody else.

Well as Count Achillees has already pointed out, Batman isn’t unbeatable, and never has been.. He has had some successes and some losses. Being ’20 steps of everyone else’, does not constitute being ‘unbeatable’. It constitutes planning and foresight and wisdom, Especially given the fact that he has no powers. For Batman to go out and not plan and strategize or make contingency plans in order to be victorious would be the stupidity of the highest order.

If a stupid, incompetent Batman is what you are interested in, then perhaps you should look into another character.

[Jorriss]

For Batman to go out and not plan and strategize or make contingency plans in order to be victorious would be the stupidity of the highest order.

If a stupid, incompetent Batman is what you are interested in, then perhaps you should look into another character.
This is a total strawman though. He isn't suggesting Batman not come up with plans, or strategize, he is saying the current state of Batman's foresight is just ridiculous. This doesn't mean make an incompetent Batman, it doesn't mean go in without a plan, it means Batman planning an alternate personality or making a contingency for if the president is sucked into an alternate dimension are just too far.

Notice there is a difference between his planning is over the top and I want him incompetent without plans at all?

[Mia]

Also remember that the current 'incarnation' of Bruce isn't the original or definitive one. It became trendy to portray Bruce as excessively one dimensional and cardboard cutout once the so called 'darker' and 'edgier' trends in comics became the norm. Read earlier batman and you'll see a more interesting overall bruce wayne, with more storylines giving more dimension to the character. There was no "separation" between Bruce and his alter ego. Again, that gimmick came later and everyone ran with it like it was original canon or something.

I agree with you 100%. For the most part Batman has been written like a one dimensional thug. When was the last time we saw Batman do some good detective work or not call on Oracle to solve a problem? That being said, I would rather see the regular character 'fixed', than some pretender put in the role. But what can you do if DC doesn't want to hire a good writer to take on the character. And more to the point why should they make an effort in hiring good writers when books like books like ASB&R and Hush sell oodles of copies? If fans are willing to dish out money on rubbishy books, then that's what the companies will produce.

[Mia]

This is a total strawman though. He isn't suggesting Batman not come up with plans, or strategize, he is saying the current state of Batman's foresight is just ridiculous. This doesn't mean make an incompetent Batman, it doesn't mean go in without a plan, it means Batman planning an alternate personality or making a contingency for if the president is sucked into an alternate dimension are just too far.

Notice there is a difference between his planning is over the top and I want him incompetent without plans at all?

Re-read the post.

The poster has plainly said that he does not like a Batman who 'thinks 20 steps ahead of everyone else'. Thinking ahead is planning and strategizing. For Batman to not think ahead about what he does is the height of sheer stupidity and folly since he's human and can get hurt.


I am not denying that some of the Batman stories are stupid and stretch the levels of credulity even for science fiction. But that is not all of Batman stories. For the most part his victories have come from planning and strategizing and hours and hours of preparation.

I just don't get readers who complain about Batman being as good as he is and want to see the character watered down. I mean if that's what you really want, then there are so many other characters to read about.

[CountAchilles]

Contrary to popular belief,

Sales do not equal worthiness.

[carabas]

I agree with you 100%. For the most part Batman has been written like a one dimensional thug. When was the last time we saw Batman do some good detective work or not call on Oracle to solve a problem? That being said, I would rather see the regular character 'fixed', than some pretender put in the role.You are not making sense. This earlier, less Grimdark Batman was a far cry from the überprepared Batgod who thinks 20 steps ahead of everyon and has contingencies for everything.

In fact, this earlier Batman, let's call him the O'Neil/Adams Batman, was pretty much what other posters have been describing and what you have been attacking.
Re-read the post.

The poster has plainly said that he does not like a Batman who 'thinks 20 steps ahead of everyone else'. Thinking ahead is planning and strategizing. Maybe he jus twants Batman to think one or two or even five steps ahead of everyone instead of twenty or however many it takes to outwit the entire JLA by his lonesome and Goddamn Devil for an encore.

I just don't get readers who complain about Batman being as good as he is and want to see the character watered down. I mean if that's what you really want, then there are so many other characters to read about.He is not watered down. He is severely 'watered up' from what he used to be.

[Buried Alien]

Yes,you're right.

Kryptonite's very easy to obtain,isn't it?

In fact,I'm sure most of Metropolis' grocers sell it in bulk.

I'm pretty sure Bruce didn't throw away the K-ring he had before going out to meet Darkseid.

Actually, did Bruce ever get a new one after Kal-L melted the original one in INFINITE CRISIS?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[CountAchilles]

I'm pretty sure Bruce didn't throw away the K-ring he had before going out to meet Darkseid.

Actually, did Bruce ever get a new one after Kal-L melted the original one in INFINITE CRISIS?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Batman Beyond Season 5 Episode 7 The Call(Part 1)

An old Bruce Wayne gives the kryptonite shard(no longer a ring) to Terry McGinnis to stop a possessed Superman from causing damage. The shard is kept in a very high-tech storage which makes us of scans of both of Bruce's hands and a full body scan too.

How will Dick do that replication,is quite the question.

[Buried Alien]

Batman Beyond Season 5 Episode 7 The Call(Part 1)

An old Bruce Wayne gives the kryptonite shard(no longer a ring) to Terry McGinnis to stop a possessed Superman from causing damage. The shard is kept in a very high-tech storage which makes us of scans of both of Bruce's hands and a full body scan too.

How will Dick do that replication,is quite the question.

That's TV continuity though.

In current comics continuity, the only known K-ring in Batman's possession was melted by the Earth-Two Superman during INFINITE CRISIS. I don't think it's been addressed if Batman ever had that K-ring replaced during the one or two years that have passed (in the DCU) since INFINITE CRISIS.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Jim Thompson]

Contrary to popular belief,

Sales do not equal worthiness.How so? They may or may not accurately reflect one's personal tastes and beliefs, but they might, in fact, be a good indication of societal worthiness. :tongue:

[CountAchilles]

That's TV continuity though.

In current comics continuity, the only known K-ring in Batman's possession was melted by the Earth-Two Superman during INFINITE CRISIS. I don't think it's been addressed if Batman ever had that K-ring replaced during the one or two years that have passed (in the DCU) since INFINITE CRISIS.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


For a man like Bruce Wayne,replacing that ring would've taken top priority. So,maybe he might've got that shard after all. But that's besides the point,the thing is that wherever it is,it must've been placed in a very secure place and in a arrangement which could've been accessed only by Bruce. I'd like to see how and where does Grayson obtain one from,cause to be honest I don't think he can.

[Werehunter]

Grayson already has some Green K, as shown in the Outsiders issue where he stared down Superman. Maybe he kept the chunk that Deathstroke put in Rose's eye.

[Oggy]

Here's the post:




The poster is saying that he wants to see Batman get beaten. The reason why Batman (Bruce Wayne) has been so successfull is that he is a strategic thinker who thinks of the various dangers and problems that he can encounter and makes plans in how to deal with it. Which is actually common sense given the fact he has no super powers and can get hurt. He needs an advantage. For Batman to go out and decide to fight crime without a plan ahead of time would be absolutely stupid.


However it seems as if some readers equate planning and foresight with being perfect and unbeatable. To them it's much more fun to read about Batman falling on his face and messing up and struggling with his self esteem.

It's not seeing Batman beaten as much as seeing Batman challenged. Really, this guy outmaneuvers Darkseid who is an intergalatic threat. It's one thing to be the perfect human being, its another to be a walking Deus ex Machina.

[DarienA]

It's not seeing Batman beaten as much as seeing Batman challenged. Really, this guy outmaneuvers Darkseid who is an intergalatic threat. It's one thing to be the perfect human being, its another to be a walking Deus ex Machina.

Let me preface this by saying I've been reading a good # of my comics since the mid 80's this includes Batman.

I think the complaint about is less a character problem and more a who is writing the character at that particular time. Batman over the years has lost countless fights, made countless, mistakes, etc... the "hook" is that the character doesn't let these stay, he analyzes, adjusts and never loses to the same person the same way more than once. He's been bruised, beaten, abandoned, etc... more than I can remember.

Now I agree that his preparedness has been taken to extremes at times. (and I still think that lovable but campy Batman show I grew up with is part of the blame as I think it sits in the subconsciousness of some writers), but I think any long term reader would agree that Bats ain't perfect.

Darkseid's arrogance is generally his downfall so that's not really much to get worked up about IMO.

[Oggy]

Let me preface this by saying I've been reading a good # of my comics since the mid 80's this includes Batman.

I think the complaint about is less a character problem and more a who is writing the character at that particular time. Batman over the years has lost countless fights, made countless, mistakes, etc... the "hook" is that the character doesn't let these stay, he analyzes, adjusts and never loses to the same person the same way more than once. He's been bruised, beaten, abandoned, etc... more than I can remember.

Now I agree that his preparedness has been taken to extremes at times. (and I still think that lovable but campy Batman show I grew up with is part of the blame as I think it sits in the subconsciousness of some writers), but I think any long term reader would agree that Bats ain't perfect.

Darkseid's arrogance is generally his downfall so that's not really much to get worked up about IMO.

I agree with just about everything you said here. My big problem is the same reason I can't stand Reed Richards, it seems there's no crisis or dilemna he can't overcome using his mind when the rest of the collective universe is stumped to even know what to do. It's one thing to have plans upon plans and failsafes for those plans, I have OCs that do that too, but its another to challenge someone completely out of your weight class and make them look like a bitch.

[Lorendiac]

Contrary to popular belief,

Sales do not equal worthiness.

Over the years, I have observed before that many people give lip service to the idea that sales figures do prove the quality (or lack thereof) of something -- provided that those sales figures agree with the speaker's own tastes! Otherwise, the reverse is true!

For instance: If the speaker loves Book A and hates Book B, and Book A got great sales and Book B got mediocre ones, then this "proves" that Book A is excellent stuff, whereas Book B is just more of the same old nonsense from a hack writer.

On the other hand! If the speaker loves Book A and hates Book B, and Book A got lousy sales and Book B got much higher ones, then the speaker will swear on a stack of Bibles that this "proves" Book A is a more "intelligent" book which requires you fully engage your brain in order to appreciate the subtleties of what you're reading, whereas the much better sales of Book B prove that its writer is "obviously" just throwing together a bunch of gratuitous sex and violence in a brightly-colored package as a way of pandering to the unwashed masses!

[Hullababy]

I definitely agree that Bruce Wayne has become very one dimensional in recent years.That said, I don't think the character is one dimensional at all. Its how he has been written in recent years. There is a difference between being prepared and being uber-prepared. The bronze age/pre death in the family Batman is my favorite incarnation because in those stories, we can see that Bruce Wayne is not some mask for Batman to fool people. Bruce Wayne is very much an individual. Determined and driven he maybe but he is definitely not insane. The Batman in those stories is a detective and is definitely prepared but not to an extent that even the freakin' devil has to bow before him. And Bruce Wayne actually had a personality back then. I'd like a Batman who is human, who actually has to be a detective and solve problems/crimes/mysteries/challenges. If Batman can take on the friggin' devil all by himself then I don't see the point of other heroes even existing.

[DarienA]

I agree with just about everything you said here. My big problem is the same reason I can't stand Reed Richards, it seems there's no crisis or dilemna he can't overcome using his mind when the rest of the collective universe is stumped to even know what to do. It's one thing to have plans upon plans and failsafes for those plans, I have OCs that do that too, but its another to challenge someone completely out of your weight class and make them look like a bitch.

Again I think its a macro vs. micro view... in the long term Reed generally comes out on top, but again if you read the FF for any amount of time Reed's screwed up countless times and made mistakes that are on a global scale... Reed (and the retcon'd group) opened the door for the Skrull invasion, etc.... but I get what you're saying.

[mirror]

I definitely agree that Bruce Wayne has become very one dimensional in recent years.That said, I don't think the character is one dimensional at all. Its how he has been written in recent years. There is a difference between being prepared and being uber-prepared. The bronze age/pre death in the family Batman is my favorite incarnation because in those stories, we can see that Bruce Wayne is not some mask for Batman to fool people. Bruce Wayne is very much an individual. Determined and driven he maybe but he is definitely not insane. The Batman in those stories is a detective and is definitely prepared but not to an extent that even the freakin' devil has to bow before him. And Bruce Wayne actually had a personality back then. I'd like a Batman who is human, who actually has to be a detective and solve problems/crimes/mysteries/challenges. If Batman can take on the friggin' devil all by himself then I don't see the point of other heroes even existing.

Heh. I've been a lurker in these boards for a long time and even there had been great posts and views I liked to comment on, nothing has been able to bring me out of the lurkdom to post until I've read this. I wholeheartedly agree. Everything I feel written in a few clear sentences. Thanks for that.

Regarding the original question: I definitely want Bruce back, there's no question about it. I've been an avid Batman fan for 20 years now (although I admit there was a period when I left the comics) and I feel a keen sense of loss when I read the DCU at large. There's definitely something missing. However, this doesn't mean I don't want Dick in the role. Dick Grayson is one of my favorite characters and he's certainly the most deserving of wearing that cowl. There will be points that he will be better than Bruce as Batman ( maybe new JLA, public views etc) and points he will be worse. I enjoy watching him trying to find his footing and I'm sure he will be successful. Whether he's not the *real* Batman is not relevant as we all know it's not going to last more than a few years the most; therefore not really worth arguing about. It's a good story and could be great saga in the Batman mythos.

What I really hope that they (DC) will use this opportunity to fix Bruce a bit and bring back his personality closer to Bronze age. Actually I'm starting to believe that's why they "killed" him. Whatever he's been experiencing in wherever he is, he will be a changed man when he returns (as Didio said). Morrison stated several times that he wanted to lighten up Batman and Johns (who's not involved with Batman but very influencing in DC) said he has trouble with the character. Dick!Batman could be an experiment as well; to see if the readership will accept a lighthearted Batman while coming up with a plausible explanation of Bruce's changing character. If they do this I just hope they stick with it this time on an editorial level so the next writer down the road just can't go back.

Wanting Batman a bit less God level doesn't mean wanting him less competent; hell I even enjoy his space adventures. What I want as a fan is to have Bruce back. He disappeared behind Batman; his company, his detective skills, his compassion and his heart disappeared with him. All we see now is Batman- the uber hero. I have no problem seeing him outwitting everyone but it would be good to remember that he's a man with a great heart and not a god who just exist to fight with his friends and family while isolating himself more and more. He has problems but he's not psychotic; he's certainly not "almost as bad as his rouge gallery". He's not sick and twisted as Winnick's last interview said. This is just lazy writing in my opinion and I want this to change.

[CountAchilles]

Over the years, I have observed before that many people give lip service to the idea that sales figures do prove the quality (or lack thereof) of something -- provided that those sales figures agree with the speaker's own tastes! Otherwise, the reverse is true!

For instance: If the speaker loves Book A and hates Book B, and Book A got great sales and Book B got mediocre ones, then this "proves" that Book A is excellent stuff, whereas Book B is just more of the same old nonsense from a hack writer.

On the other hand! If the speaker loves Book A and hates Book B, and Book A got lousy sales and Book B got much higher ones, then the speaker will swear on a stack of Bibles that this "proves" Book A is a more "intelligent" book which requires you fully engage your brain in order to appreciate the subtleties of what you're reading, whereas the much better sales of Book B prove that its writer is "obviously" just throwing together a bunch of gratuitous sex and violence in a brightly-colored package as a way of pandering to the unwashed masses!


Well,that's a lengthier version of "Suit yourself."

[CountAchilles]

What I want as a fan is to have Bruce back. He disappeared behind Batman; his company, his detective skills, his compassion and his heart disappeared with him. All we see now is Batman- the uber hero. I have no problem seeing him outwitting everyone but it would be good to remember that he's a man with a great heart and not a god who just exist to fight with his friends and family while isolating himself more and more. He has problems but he's not psychotic; he's certainly not "almost as bad as his rouge gallery". He's not sick and twisted as Winnick's last interview said. This is just lazy writing in my opinion and I want this to change.

Agreed in full. I'd like to see someone write him the way he was in "Batman: The Animated Series",that for me, was the best Bruce Wayne.His character was treated more seriously, shown as assertive, intelligent, and actively involved in the management of Wayne Enterprises, without the fear of jeopardizing his secret identity. He even displayed an impressive martial arts prowess in front of a journalist.

And as for Winick,that's only his own take on the character,was never a fan of his works anyway.

[Jim Thompson]

Heh. I've been a lurker in these boards for a long time and even there had been great posts and views I liked to comment on, nothing has been able to bring me out of the lurkdom to post until I've read this. I wholeheartedly agree. Everything I feel written in a few clear sentences. Thanks for that.

Regarding the original question: I definitely want Bruce back, there's no question about it. I've been an avid Batman fan for 20 years now (although I admit there was a period when I left the comics) and I feel a keen sense of loss when I read the DCU at large. There's definitely something missing. However, this doesn't mean I don't want Dick in the role. Dick Grayson is one of my favorite characters and he's certainly the most deserving of wearing that cowl. There will be points that he will be better than Bruce as Batman ( maybe new JLA, public views etc) and points he will be worse. I enjoy watching him trying to find his footing and I'm sure he will be successful. Whether he's not the *real* Batman is not relevant as we all know it's not going to last more than a few years the most; therefore not really worth arguing about. It's a good story and could be great saga in the Batman mythos.

What I really hope that they (DC) will use this opportunity to fix Bruce a bit and bring back his personality closer to Bronze age. Actually I'm starting to believe that's why they "killed" him. Whatever he's been experiencing in wherever he is, he will be a changed man when he returns (as Didio said). Morrison stated several times that he wanted to lighten up Batman and Johns (who's not involved with Batman but very influencing in DC) said he has trouble with the character. Dick!Batman could be an experiment as well; to see if the readership will accept a lighthearted Batman while coming up with a plausible explanation of Bruce's changing character. If they do this I just hope they stick with it this time on an editorial level so the next writer down the road just can't go back.

Wanting Batman a bit less God level doesn't mean wanting him less competent; hell I even enjoy his space adventures. What I want as a fan is to have Bruce back. He disappeared behind Batman; his company, his detective skills, his compassion and his heart disappeared with him. All we see now is Batman- the uber hero. I have no problem seeing him outwitting everyone but it would be good to remember that he's a man with a great heart and not a god who just exist to fight with his friends and family while isolating himself more and more. He has problems but he's not psychotic; he's certainly not "almost as bad as his rouge gallery". He's not sick and twisted as Winnick's last interview said. This is just lazy writing in my opinion and I want this to change.Very nice post. I agree.

[Pól Rua]

Also remember that the current 'incarnation' of Bruce isn't the original or definitive one. It became trendy to portray Bruce as excessively one dimensional and cardboard cutout once the so called 'darker' and 'edgier' trends in comics became the norm. Read earlier batman and you'll see a more interesting overall bruce wayne, with more storylines giving more dimension to the character. There was no "separation" between Bruce and his alter ego. Again, that gimmick came later and everyone ran with it like it was original canon or something.
Exactly. I'm sick of Batman as amoral, brutish, fascist sociopath.

If a stupid, incompetent Batman is what you are interested in, then perhaps you should look into another character.

Notice there is a difference between his planning is over the top and I want him incompetent without plans at all?
Welcome to the wonder that is binary thinking.
I agree with you, though. The Batman I like doesn't think 20 steps ahead, however, he is quick-witted and able to come up with plans on the fly and use his skills, equipment and environment to advantage.
The Batman we have now isn't that far removed from the Super Friends or Adam West era Batman in that he is almost entirely reliant on deus ex machina-style gadgets (Bat Shark Repellent, anyone?).

There's a difference between being able to think on your feet and the Midnighter's "I've already run this battle through in my head a million times". Batman works far better as the former.

[Jim Thompson]

The Batman we have now isn't that far removed from the Super Friends or Adam West era Batman in that he is almost entirely reliant on deus ex machina-style gadgets (Bat Shark Repellent, anyone?).Are you thinking of a specific scene here? What's been done with the character of late that would lead you to this sort of conclusion?

[TeamED209]

dick's gone down as a character for me, i think the last time i enjoyed him was when his series was getting started and he just moved to bludhaven....im still going to give it more time but im not liking dick as batman so far so for me i'd like bruce back within a year or two and i think dick will probably die when he does as i don't see a place for him again.....

[CountAchilles]

dick's gone down as a character for me, i think the last time i enjoyed him was when his series was getting started and he just moved to bludhaven....im still going to give it more time but im not liking dick as batman so far so for me i'd like bruce back within a year or two and i think dick will probably die when he does as i don't see a place for him again.....

"Death" is an event of zero probablility when we're talking about Richard Grayson,he's just too popular to be knocked off.I reckon he's going to go back to being Nightwing with a lot of changes to the attitude and costume.

[mirror]

"Death" is an event of zero probablility when we're talking about Richard Grayson,he's just too popular to be knocked off.I reckon he's going to go back to being Nightwing with a lot of changes to the attitude and costume.

I agree. I think Didio has learned his lesson during Infinite Crisis and this "Batman" period will certainly give Dick a different approach as he'd been reported demanding.

[TheMan2695]

I'm on the fence as well about Bruce coming back as Batman.I mean how could Bruce pull it off when he has no superpowers at all?Maybe it's time for him to retire and turn the cape and cowl over to someone else

[stillanerd]

Another thought I had about this is I think Dick's as Batman is a parallel for "Knightfall" and Azrael becoming Batman. Back in the 1990s, the cry from the fanbase was that Batman wasn't dark enough, that he should kill criminals because that would make him more badass. So DC obliged by having Jean-Paul Valley take over after Bruce Wayne was paralyzed by Bane, and what we got was a rather violent, sinister looking Batman, with claws, body armor, and wrist launchers. And the result was readers instantly saw this Batman as nothing more as a Punisher wannabe, a psycho who was no better than the criminals he hunted down--and this was intentional on DC's part.

Now, there have been cries from the fanbase about how Batman needs to "lighten up," that he needs to be less depressing and not so perfect. So we get Dick Grayson, a guy who fans have always seen as the perfect replacement for Batman, be that fun and adventurous Batman after Bruce Wayne, the overly grim and brooding Batman "everyone" got tired of put out to pasture. But how much do you folks want to bet that, just as DC showed Jean-Paul Valley as Batman was "too dark" and as a result ineffective that Dick Grayson as Batman will be "too light" and just as equally ineffective? The goal here, I think, is to show Batman has to have a certain darkness to him, even as they probably try to make him more balanced by eventually bringing him back.

[David Walton]

Another thought I had about this is I think Dick's as Batman is a parallel for "Knightfall" and Azrael becoming Batman. Back in the 1990s, the cry from the fanbase was that Batman wasn't dark enough, that he should kill criminals because that would make him more badass. So DC obliged by having Jean-Paul Valley take over after Bruce Wayne was paralyzed by Bane, and what we got was a rather violent, sinister looking Batman, with claws, body armor, and wrist launchers. And the result was readers instantly saw this Batman as nothing more as a Punisher wannabe, a psycho who was no better than the criminals he hunted down--and this was intentional on DC's part.

While I think comparisons between "modern" antiheroes and the original superheroes were abundant at the time, I'm not convinced the story was designed around an argument. I think it was about creating dramatic tension.

Now, there have been cries from the fanbase about how Batman needs to "lighten up," that he needs to be less depressing and not so perfect. So we get Dick Grayson, a guy who fans have always seen as the perfect replacement for Batman, be that fun and adventurous Batman after Bruce Wayne, the overly grim and brooding Batman "everyone" got tired of put out to pasture. But how much do you folks want to bet that, just as DC showed Jean-Paul Valley as Batman was "too dark" and as a result ineffective that Dick Grayson as Batman will be "too light" and just as equally ineffective? The goal here, I think, is to show Batman has to have a certain darkness to him, even as they probably try to make him more balanced by eventually bringing him back.

I say when all is said and done "Batman Reborn" will be about Dick Grayson's success. The message is simple: Dick Grayson isn't Batman, but he could be. And if we can imagine a DCU that's moved forward ten years, he probably will be.

[stillanerd]

While I think comparisons between "modern" antiheroes and the original superheroes were abundant at the time, I'm not convinced the story was designed around an argument. I think it was about creating dramatic tension.

Sure, it created dramatic tension, no mistake about that. Not to mention it was also in reaction towards "The Death of Superman" storyline in terms of shaking things up. But according to Denny O'Neil, having Jean Paul Valley of all people take over the mantle of Batman was indeed intended as a commentary on the rise of anti-heroes in the 1990s.

We we're looking at heroes in other comic books, to say nothing of other media, in which wholesale slaughter seemed to be the primary qualification. They would give some lip service to say this is in a good cause, and then proceed to mow people down.

So on some level, Knightfall was essentially saying "Okay, you guys want a darker Batman who kills people and is just like those other antiheroes? Be careful what you wish for."

I say when all is said and done "Batman Reborn" will be about Dick Grayson's success. The message is simple: Dick Grayson isn't Batman, but he could be. And if we can imagine a DCU that's moved forward ten years, he probably will be.

Actually, I see the opposite. Dick Grayson's success will be when he embraces his own individuality rather than try to "play a role." Because, as I stated earlier, he's essentially had to give up his own identity and pretend to be someone else for the greater good, and I think, ironically, that's going to lead to his downfall. After all, Morrison has left enough clues to indicate that things are not going in a positive direction and that, as things stand now, the apocalyptic future we saw in Batman #666 with Damien as a demonically-possessed, murderous Batman is going to come to pass and will come about if Bruce Wayne does not return to his own time.

In some ways, I think Morrison, Winnick, Dini, and the other Batman writers are leading readers into a false sense of security, that they are making readers believe that Dick Grayson as Batman will work; but in reality, there are little indications here and there that things could easily turn south--Two Face's recognition that "Batman" is not the real Batman; Damien, while not being in charge, clearly being the more dominant personality of the new dynamic duo; Dick having to cut a deal with Hush and having get outside help to force him to instill fear into him to comply; Tim Drake drifting further away from everyone and, maybe, being under Ra's Al Ghul's tutelage--stuff like that. Plus, we know, based on the preview shots of upcoming arcs in Batman and Robin #1 that Doctor Hurt is going to return, and I think things are going to get bad for Dick rather quickly.

[David Walton]

Sure, it created dramatic tension, no mistake about that. Not to mention it was also in reaction towards "The Death of Superman" storyline in terms of shaking things up. But according to Denny O'Neil, having Jean Paul Valley of all people take over the mantle of Batman was indeed intended as a commentary on the rise of anti-heroes in the 1990s.

O'Neill would have the inside knowledge...but I still think that was more a contextual thing than a commentary on modern heroes. Certainly Jean Paul became compelling enough in his own right that he justified a substantial solo series.

Actually, I see the opposite. Dick Grayson's success will be when he embraces his own individuality rather than try to "play a role." Because, as I stated earlier, he's essentially had to give up his own identity and pretend to be someone else for the greater good, and I think, ironically, that's going to lead to his downfall. After all, Morrison has left enough clues to indicate that things are not going in a positive direction and that, as things stand now, the apocalyptic future we saw in Batman #666 with Damien as a demonically-possessed, murderous Batman is going to come to pass and will come about if Bruce Wayne does not return to his own time.

In some ways, I think Morrison, Winnick, Dini, and the other Batman writers are leading readers into a false sense of security, that they are making readers believe that Dick Grayson as Batman will work; but in reality, there are little indications here and there that things could easily turn south--Two Face's recognition that "Batman" is not the real Batman; Damien, while not being in charge, clearly being the more dominant personality of the new dynamic duo; Dick having to cut a deal with Hush and having get outside help to force him to instill fear into him to comply; Tim Drake drifting further away from everyone and, maybe, being under Ra's Al Ghul's tutelage--stuff like that. Plus, we know, based on the preview shots of upcoming arcs in Batman and Robin #1 that Doctor Hurt is going to return, and I think things are going to get bad for Dick rather quickly.

Of course things are going to get bad for Dick. His success wouldn't mean much if he isn't faced with overhwelming odds. But I stand by my argument that Dick will succeed and then pass the mantle back to Bruce. As for 666, I think that's certainly going to build some tension. But I don't see why Dick won't be the one to pull the trigger on that future.

[stillanerd]

O'Neill would have the inside knowledge...but I still think that was more a contextual thing than a commentary on modern heroes. Certainly Jean Paul became compelling enough in his own right that he justified a substantial solo series.

True. And maybe that was part of the goal for Knightfall as well, considering how substitute heroes tend to also get their own books (with the exception of Ben Reilly).

Of course things are going to get bad for Dick. His success wouldn't mean much if he isn't faced with overhwelming odds. But I stand by my argument that Dick will succeed and then pass the mantle back to Bruce. As for 666, I think that's certainly going to build some tension. But I don't see why Dick won't be the one to pull the trigger on that future.

He could. But the way I think things will happen is that Doctor Hurt will manipulate things so that Dick Grayson ends up getting shot by a sniper and that Damien somehow gets the blame for it (remember in issue #666, Barbara Grodon blamed him for the death of a "close friend" which could very well be Dick) and that this is all under the purpose of having Hurt gain Damien's soul. Dick, of course, will survive, and perhaps, when Bruce returns and tries to confront Hurt one last time, Dick may be the one who ends up saving him in a throwback to the original "dynamic duo."

[Pól Rua]

Are you thinking of a specific scene here? What's been done with the character of late that would lead you to this sort of conclusion?

Just the whole 'I happen to have the solution right here for the problem' element of Batgod. It's basically a cross between Adam West's 'Bat Thermal Underwear' and Ozymandias' "I did it thirty-five minutes ago" but filtered through the mind of a high school spree shooter.
I mean, seriously, there's the whole mess with Tony Stark acting like a fascist in 'Civil War' nonsense, but how many times does your friend and team-mate have to sit at the back of the meeting room scribbling ways of killing you and all your other friends before you take him aside and suggest politely that he needs some damn help?

[Lorendiac]

I mean, seriously, there's the whole mess with Tony Stark acting like a fascist in 'Civil War' nonsense, but how many times does your friend and team-mate have to sit at the back of the meeting room scribbling ways of killing you and all your other friends before you take him aside and suggest politely that he needs some damn help?

How long should you tolerate that in a so-called friend? Well, that might depend on the answers to a few questions:

1. How many times have you, and/or some of the other mutual friends of you and the paranoid friend, actually tried to kill him?

2. How many times have "evil twins" of some of those friends (clones, alternate-timeline versions, impostors with identical powers, etc.) tried to kill him?

In real life, the answers to those questions, within a circle of friends, are usually "never!" and "never!"

But in Batman's case, those are not the correct answers. Given how many worst-case scenarios he's already experienced, isn't he justified in suspecting that the same nonsense (mind-control, or whatever) may happen all over again, and that by golly someone has got to take intelligent precautions so the good guys aren't caught with their pants down the next time Hal Jordan goes bonkers or Superman gets hypnotized by Poison Ivy or whatever?

[revolver86]

How long should you tolerate that in a so-called friend? Well, that might depend on the answers to a few questions:

1. How many times have you, and/or some of the other mutual friends of you and the paranoid friend, actually tried to kill him?

2. How many times have "evil twins" of some of those friends (clones, alternate-timeline versions, impostors with identical powers, etc.) tried to kill him?

In real life, the answers to those questions, within a circle of friends, are usually "never!" and "never!"

But in Batman's case, those are not the correct answers. Given how many worst-case scenarios he's already experienced, isn't he justified in suspecting that the same nonsense (mind-control, or whatever) may happen all over again, and that by golly someone has got to take intelligent precautions so the good guys aren't caught with their pants down the next time Hal Jordan goes bonkers or Superman gets hypnotized by Poison Ivy or whatever?

Thank you, I've been telling my buddies that for YEARS!

[Babylon23]

Re-read the post.

The poster has plainly said that he does not like a Batman who 'thinks 20 steps ahead of everyone else'. Thinking ahead is planning and strategizing. For Batman to not think ahead about what he does is the height of sheer stupidity and folly since he's human and can get hurt.

Once again, you seem to be reading far more into my post than is actually there. I'm not suggesting Batman shouldn't be a master strategist. What annoys me is the near-omniscient Batman that became the norm in the mid to late 90's, the Batman that was thinking so far ahead of everybody else that there was no real dramatic tension to his stories since he could never be beaten. Uber Batgod is a good a term as any to describe this version of Batman and I'm glad to see him gone.

Maybe he jus twants Batman to think one or two or even five steps ahead of everyone instead of twenty or however many it takes to outwit the entire JLA by his lonesome and Goddamn Devil for an encore.

That's basically it. Thanks for actually reading and understanding my post.

It's not seeing Batman beaten as much as seeing Batman challenged. Really, this guy outmaneuvers Darkseid who is an intergalatic threat. It's one thing to be the perfect human being, its another to be a walking Deus ex Machina.

Yep, that's exactly it.

I agree with you, though. The Batman I like doesn't think 20 steps ahead, however, he is quick-witted and able to come up with plans on the fly and use his skills, equipment and environment to advantage.
The Batman we have now isn't that far removed from the Super Friends or Adam West era Batman in that he is almost entirely reliant on deus ex machina-style gadgets (Bat Shark Repellent, anyone?).

That's exactly the Batman I'm looking for. Competant without being Omniscient.

[Babylon23]

Yes it does. What books have you been reading? Dick is optimistic, positive, jovial, ebullient, all words which are euphemisms for jolly.

I've been reading the books where Dick Grayson is trying to come to terms with his new role while attempting to reign in Robin and deal with all of the problems of being Batman and trying to live up to the expectation and pressure that the role brings with it. That's a hell of a lot more interesting a character to me than uber-invincible Batgod, which is why I'm happy to see Dick in the role for now, since I find this development and his characterisation fascinating.

Obviously I've missed the Adam West-style Batman book you're talking about.

[Lorendiac]

Thank you, I've been telling my buddies that for YEARS!

You've reminded me of something.

I actually wrote a much longer treatment of that basic argument, years ago, as a parody of what might have "really happened behind closed doors" at the end of Mark Waid's "Tower of Babel" story arc in "JLA." That was the arc which ended with Batman being kicked out of the League because his teammates were shocked to discover he had prepared contingency plans for how to quickly and effectively subdue each and every one of them, if need be. (He had not put those plans into effect -- but his notes had been stolen by Ra's al Ghul.)

I thought that was a silly moment in Waid's run. My initial reaction was something like this: "So the JLAers are stunned to learn that Batman had prepared contingency plans for worst-case scenarios? Next thing we know, the other JLAers will be fainting from shock at such 'bizarre surprises' as the idea that the sun normally rises in the east and sets in the west, and that water boils if you just get it hot enough, and that professional politicians often make extravagant promises they know they won't be able to keep!"

Anyway, I wrote my parody as a transcript of what "really happened" when they were discussing the matter. I posted it on these forums, among other places, and I just now discovered that the old thread I started is still available here on CBR! (I kinda thought it might have been deleted because of old age by now.)

If you want to take a look, just follow the link!

Arguing Batman's Guilt in the "Tower of Babel" (PARODY) (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=88483)

[Pól Rua]

How long should you tolerate that in a so-called friend? Well, that might depend on the answers to a few questions:

1. How many times have you, and/or some of the other mutual friends of you and the paranoid friend, actually tried to kill him?

2. How many times have "evil twins" of some of those friends (clones, alternate-timeline versions, impostors with identical powers, etc.) tried to kill him?

In real life, the answers to those questions, within a circle of friends, are usually "never!" and "never!"

But in Batman's case, those are not the correct answers. Given how many worst-case scenarios he's already experienced, isn't he justified in suspecting that the same nonsense (mind-control, or whatever) may happen all over again, and that by golly someone has got to take intelligent precautions so the good guys aren't caught with their pants down the next time Hal Jordan goes bonkers or Superman gets hypnotized by Poison Ivy or whatever?

There's intelligent precautions and there's a 'Here's a list of how I kill all my friends the next time the **** hits the fan (which could never POSSIBLY fall into evil hands'...

...and of course, having learned his lesson, he builds the 'sattelite to spy on all my friends so I can kill them all the next time the **** hits the fan (which could never POSSIBLY fall into evil hands)'.

Yes, lots of weird stuff happens which might necessitate having to deal with evil twins or mind control victims or what-have-you, but seriously, Bruce is spending WAAAAAAAY too much time plotting to murder all his friends.

[CountAchilles]

Yes, lots of weird stuff happens which might necessitate having to deal with evil twins or mind control victims or what-have-you, but seriously, Bruce is spending WAAAAAAAY too much time plotting to murder all his friends.

He was never "plotting for murder" as you've put it, he had just made plans to incapacitate or deal with them without using killing force,it was Ra's who stole the ideas and programmed the OMACs to use lethal force on the metas. And believe me,if you're living in a world with powerhouses like Superman,Wonder Woman,Martian Manhunter et al you'd be a fool to think that nothing will ever affect their judgement or they will never be subjected to mind control.Once again,he did absolutely nothing wrong.

[Jorriss]

Once again,he did absolutely nothing wrong.
That's not true, he did nothing ETHICALLY wrong. He made numerous mistakes.

[CountAchilles]

That's not true, he did nothing ETHICALLY wrong. He made numerous mistakes.

Okay,this is a challenge.Have you even read the posts before or did you pick up a random line from my post?

We're talking about ethics here.

[carabas]

Another thought I had about this is I think Dick's as Batman is a parallel for "Knightfall" and Azrael becoming Batman. Back in the 1990s, the cry from the fanbase was that Batman wasn't dark enough, that he should kill criminals because that would make him more badass. So DC obliged by having Jean-Paul Valley take over after Bruce Wayne was paralyzed by Bane, and what we got was a rather violent, sinister looking Batman, with claws, body armor, and wrist launchers. And the result was readers instantly saw this Batman as nothing more as a Punisher wannabe, a psycho who was no better than the criminals he hunted down--and this was intentional on DC's part.

Now, there have been cries from the fanbase about how Batman needs to "lighten up," that he needs to be less depressing and not so perfect. So we get Dick Grayson. a guy who fans have always seen as the perfect replacement for Batman, be that fun and adventurous Batman after Bruce Wayne, the overly grim and brooding Batman "everyone" got tired of put out to pasture. But how much do you folks want to bet that, just as DC showed Jean-Paul Valley as Batman was "too dark" and as a result ineffective that Dick Grayson as Batman will be "too light" and just as equally ineffective? The goal here, I think, is to show Batman has to have a certain darkness to him, even as they probably try to make him more balanced by eventually bringing him back.There is a very big difference here: over the last ten years or so, DC has repeatedly tried to lighten up Batman. It's what Murderer/Fugitive and Infinite Crisis were all about. It just never seems to stick for very long.
Morrison's Batman was supposed to be mucha lighter, bronze-agey version, but even he went off the rails almost immediately (but at least his Batgod wasn't a dick about it).

[Buried Alien]

There is a very big difference here: over the last ten years or so, DC has repeatedly tried to lighten up Batman. It's what Murderer/Fugitive and Infinite Crisis were all about. It just never seems to stick for very long.
Morrison's Batman was supposed to be mucha lighter, bronze-agey version, but even he went off the rails almost immediately (but at least his Batgod wasn't a dick about it).

Maybe the current generation of writers just doesn't know how to do "light" Batman.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[David Walton]

Maybe the current generation of writers just doesn't know how to do "light" Batman.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I think DC has gone a long way toward recovering the balance in the past five years.

[David Walton]

True. And maybe that was part of the goal for Knightfall as well, considering how substitute heroes tend to also get their own books (with the exception of Ben Reilly).

I'm sure they had that in mind.


You know, one interesting possibility that occurs to me is that by the time Bruce returns Dick might actually covet the Batman role. I don't think he'd fight him for it, but it might be an interesting angle for him. For the past twenty years he's struggled to get out from under the shadow of the bat and be his own man. Once he's made peace with his role as the Batman, perhaps he'll feel less like his own man in the Nightwing role.

[Jorriss]

Okay,this is a challenge.Have you even read the posts before or did you pick up a random line from my post?

We're talking about ethics here.
Earlier on there was also a discussion of the plans being ineffective simply because they did not work and were stolen. Then, given your post bolded he did absolutely nothing wrong it implies a larger scale than just ethics, so it did seem worthwhile to point out.

[Werehunter]

He was never "plotting for murder" as you've put it, he had just made plans to incapacitate or deal with them without using killing force,it was Ra's who stole the ideas and programmed the OMACs to use lethal force on the metas. And believe me,if you're living in a world with powerhouses like Superman,Wonder Woman,Martian Manhunter et al you'd be a fool to think that nothing will ever affect their judgement or they will never be subjected to mind control.Once again,he did absolutely nothing wrong.

Bruce's plans for Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Aquaman would have killed them. I'm not sure about what is plan for Flash would have done in the long term but likely would have killed him as well if it wasn't stopped. Only the plans for Superman, Green Lantern and Plastic Man would not have lead to the death of the character. Hell the plan for Green Lantern might have resulted in others being hurt if Kyle had panicked and started tossing around constructs. While he might not have been planning to murder them, many of the plans did include what would have been lethal force without an outside force stopping it.

[carabas]

He was never "plotting for murder" as you've put it, he had just made plans to incapacitate or deal with them without using killing force,it was Ra's who stole the ideas and programmed the OMACs to use lethal force on the metas.
You have some stuff mixed up.
A long time ago, Batman made contingencies to take out the JLA. Those were nicked by Ra's Al Ghul who implemented them. Most of his plans were not lethal the same way a baseball bat to the head isn't per se lethal.

All this was a decade or so before Brad Metzler retconned in a reason for him to do so with the Identity Crisis mindwipe.

Later, Batman of panel continued to create plans to take out pretty much every meta, and created Brother I. Both of which got stolen by Checkmate.
The OMACs were created by Lex Luthor (or at least on his command back when he was president) using B13 technology. Maxwell Lord then put them under Brother I's control and armed them with Batman's elimination protocols.

[CountAchilles]

Bruce's plans for Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Aquaman would have killed them. I'm not sure about what is plan for Flash would have done in the long term but likely would have killed him as well if it wasn't stopped. Only the plans for Superman, Green Lantern and Plastic Man would not have lead to the death of the character. Hell the plan for Green Lantern might have resulted in others being hurt if Kyle had panicked and started tossing around constructs. While he might not have been planning to murder them, many of the plans did include what would have been lethal force without an outside force stopping it.

I think he would've assumed that these heroes wouldn't have just "accepted" this and allowed to be incapacitated,he knew they'd fight back on their own with "outside" force and hence,the use of extra force.Plus,I don't think his original plans would've killed them,as to speak.No matter what he feels about them,he considers metas to be important too and there's also the "No Killing" rule which he follows.

You have some stuff mixed up.
A long time ago, Batman made contingencies to take out the JLA. Those were nicked by Ra's Al Ghul who implemented them. Most of his plans were not lethal the same way a baseball bat to the head isn't per se lethal.

All this was a decade or so before Brad Metzler retconned in a reason for him to do so with the Identity Crisis mindwipe.

Later, Batman of panel continued to create plans to take out pretty much every meta, and created Brother I. Both of which got stolen by Checkmate.
The OMACs were created by Lex Luthor (or at least on his command back when he was president) using B13 technology. Maxwell Lord then put them under Brother I's control and armed them with Batman's elimination protocols.

Agreed. Batman made Brother Eye.Luthor made OMACs.Maxwell Lord put OMACs under Brother Eye and armed them with Batman's elimination protocols? Nope. Batman had NO "elimination protocols", he just had ways to incapacitate or stop with,not to wipe them off completely.It was Ra's Al Ghul who had altered the plans and use of lethal force was allowed for OMACs.

[Jorriss]

I think he would've assumed that these heroes wouldn't have just "accepted" this and allowed to be incapacitated,he knew they'd fight back on their own with "outside" force and hence,the use of extra force.Plus,I don't think his original plans would've killed them,as to speak.No matter what he feels about them,he considers metas to be important too and there's also the "No Killing" rule which he follows.
Which is why it should probably be considered poor writing because most of those plans would of reasonably killed them. In principle, the plans are fine, taking measures against the most powerful beings is a good idea, but his plans kind of sucked. So the issue, at least with me, is not the idea of having the plans, but the plans themselves.

[carabas]

Nope. Batman had NO "elimination protocols", he just had ways to incapacitate or stop with,not to wipe them off completely.It was Ra's Al Ghul who had altered the plans and use of lethal force was allowed for OMACs.Yeah, he had. Simulated magical lightning to Un-Shazam Billy Batson? That's an elimination protocol that eliminates Captain Marvel. And since it puts an unpowered kid in the middle of a superfight, one that is potentially lethal.

Anything that involves kryptonite is potentially lethal. Most of his plans are like a baseballbat to the head: kind of lethal, depending on how hard you hit. Not lethal if Batman does it, pretty damn lethal if an OMAC does the exact same plan.

[Excelsior Prime]

It's like all of the characters I loved when I started reading superhero comics some ten years ago are going byebye en lieu of some dead antiques that have been dug up out of misplaced nostalgia, and frankly, it is getting frelling annoying.

How do you think WE old-timers felt ten years ago?

Go read your back issues and take comfort in them.

Bruce will be back, so too J'onn, and Arthur. The classics are here to stay.

[Aziz Abbasi]

Why would I want Bruce to be back? He must be over 40 years old by now
I broke my bond with Batman comics after Morrison turned it from a respected series to a rat hole

[dodger8804]

I think bruce will eventually comeback, but he might let Tim keep the mantle for a little while. I wouldn't be suprised if Bruce was a somewhat "Oracle" for drake for a couple of years.

[Aziz Abbasi]

I think bruce will eventually comeback, but he might let Tim keep the mantle for a little while.Tim? I'm pretty sure the current Batman is "Richard (Dick) Grayson"