How much of "Batman: Reborn" is going to last? [Archive]

shaxper

08-16-2009, 04:24 PM

Obviously the big question is whether or not Dick will remain as Batman, but also:

-Will Tim remain as Red Robin?
-Will Damian remain as Robin?
-Will Batwoman remain as the primary feature in Detective Comics?
-How many of the new titles will survive longer than a year?

My own personal feelings on the matter:

-Dick's survival as Batman depends entirely upon reader response. I think the fans are mostly willing to accept him, but there's the problem with Bruce still being alive in the past. I don't think the fans are going to just let that go, nor will they be satisfied with Bruce doing anything other than being the modern day Batman. So, I guess I'm really saying that Dick would cut it as Batman if it weren't for the fact that Bruce is still out there. Since he is, Dick's days in the cowl are numbered.

-Tim taking on a new identity is awesome, but this one is a little too Jason Todd. Red Robin is going to need to find a new direction (and possibly a better name) in order to work, but it can.

-Damian is everything that 50% of fans hated about Jason Todd enough to want to kill him. However, as long as Grant is writing even one Batman title, Damian will remain. After that, I think he can easily be discarded unless some other writer is able to do something compelling and less annoying with the character.

-I don't think Batwoman has any staying power at all. The art is great, but the character isn't anything special. If she didn't have "Bat" in her name, she never would have made it as the star of DC's longest running and most historically important title. I give her a year, after which she'll get a short and easily-forgotten series of her own, only to finally make it onto the pages of The Outsiders or some other team title where she can finally earn her place.

-Streets of Gotham and Gotham City Sirens don't have a chance once Dini stops writing them. The first is an unnecessary title and the second features characters that, historically speaking, no one else has been able to keep interesting as the stars of their own titles. Red Robin can make it, though, but I think the title will need to change.

Captain Jim

08-16-2009, 07:03 PM

-Streets of Gotham and Gotham City Sirens don't have a chance once Dini stops writing them. The first is an unnecessary title and the second features characters that, historically speaking, no one else has been able to keep interesting as the stars of their own titles.

What is an "unnecessary" title? Is any title featuring Batman other than Batman or Detective unnecessary? Were Gotham Knights and Shadow of the Bat unnecessary titles?

Protoman

08-16-2009, 09:43 PM

I think Red Robin is great, as well as most other things in the Batman unvierse right now

shaxper

08-16-2009, 09:53 PM

What is an "unnecessary" title? Is any title featuring Batman other than Batman or Detective unnecessary? Were Gotham Knights and Shadow of the Bat unnecessary titles?

Yes. That's why they're no longer in print.

Time and again, we've seen companies give a variety of titles to a legendary character (Batman, Superman, Spiderman), and each time, two seems to be the magic number: Batman/Detective, Superman/Action, Amazing Spiderman/Web of Spiderman. All those other titles fade out after only a few years because readers don't demand more than two ongoing titles for a character, especially when he or she is likely to make appearances in other titles anyway.

Redrumbin

08-17-2009, 12:42 AM

I have this wweeeeiiiiirrrdddd feeling that they're going to kill Tim and make Dick take the Red Robin mantle just because a couple of years ago Alex Ross said so.

the Hornet

08-17-2009, 01:07 AM

I have this wweeeeiiiiirrrdddd feeling that they're going to kill Tim and make Dick take the Red Robin mantle just because a couple of years ago Alex Ross said so.

I had a small feeling this might happen too. I hope not. Tim is my second fav Bat character after Dick and I want them both around. I actually like the status quo now. IE Bruce stays gone. :biggrin:

Doug Seid

08-17-2009, 01:23 AM

I have this wweeeeiiiiirrrdddd feeling that they're going to kill Tim and make Dick take the Red Robin mantle just because a couple of years ago Alex Ross said so.

Yeah, that thought has crossed my mind too. Good thing is, if he dies, he'll be back in exactly 12 months. :rolleyes:

Melfice

08-17-2009, 02:14 AM

Damn I hope not. I hate they comics and death mean nothing other than to increase sales of a book. If they kill Tim off, keep him dead...but I rather they don't myself. There is no need to kill the char off at all.

mofo

08-17-2009, 04:56 AM

I like that Tim has gone off on his own... but not as Red Robin (something about the costume and name just sounds so.....OFF). Plus, the series seems kinda redundant (because we know it will be Grant Morrison who will be bringing Bruce back). But killing Tim would be 23 steps backwards

Batwoman is sweet and hope she stays on Detective for a long time (or at least until Rucka leaves). If she joins Tomasi's Outsiders (as another poster mentioned) that would be interesting

Streets of Gotham & Gotham City Sirens are, unfortunately, very bad. Hard to believe this is Dini writing. Get rid of the 2 series, put him on Batman. While Winick's writing isn't that bad, Dini is better. And I'm still extremely skeptical over Tony Daniel.

RyleKayner

08-17-2009, 06:46 AM

I don't see Tim being killed - the current DC head honchos have bolloxed up enough with Conner and Bart to know that fans don't want them to off Tim.

Batwoman can go the way of the dodo as soon as Ruka and JH Williams leave as far as I care. And if she would be so kind as to take Jason with her when she goes, I'll be ever so grateful and erect a shrine for her in the altar of my heart.

Sirens, I hope gets turned into BOP part II if Dini ever leaves and Gail and the current artist take the title to stellar heights.

Bruce, as long as Grant has a plan and a free hand, is in good hands. As indeed, it the rest of the Bat-franchise as long as Grant, Paul and Greg stich around.

David Walton

08-17-2009, 09:40 AM

Yes. That's why they're no longer in print.

Time and again, we've seen companies give a variety of titles to a legendary character (Batman, Superman, Spiderman), and each time, two seems to be the magic number: Batman/Detective, Superman/Action, Amazing Spiderman/Web of Spiderman. All those other titles fade out after only a few years because readers don't demand more than two ongoing titles for a character, especially when he or she is likely to make appearances in other titles anyway.

One thing that really distinguishes the Bat-verse from other franchises is the ability of the extended Bat-family to carry their own titles.

So there's a distinction to be made between the Superman/Action dichotomy and, say, Azrael or Red Robin. You could only make a valid comparison if DC were publishing a Lois Lane or Jimmy Olsen title right now.

To my mind, you can't tell that many interesting stories that focus on other characters' supporting casts on a consistent basis. You could tell the occassional Flash Thompson story that knocks it out of the park (ASM did not so long ago), but you couldn't sell a title on the strength of Flash Thompson alone.

But with Batman you have a seemingly inexhaustible supply of characters who can carry a title with or without Batman actually present. There seemingly isn't any shortage of stories you can tell with Jim Gordon, or Tim Drake, or Dick Grayson or even the Gotham City Police Department as the focus. I'm not sure there's any comparable franchise in the history of comics--even when DC was able to publish titles focusing on Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane!

I also think there's a seemingly inexhaustible range of Batman stories to tell. Batman can sustain a noir tone, a detective story, a superhero adventure, a gothic horror atmosphere--I couldn't list all the various approaches and infinite combinations.

I'm not sure I buy into a universal two-title rule, but that said, Batman is the one character who will always defy whatever parameters the market sets.

Mia

08-17-2009, 10:10 AM

-Dick's survival as Batman depends entirely upon reader response. I think the fans are mostly willing to accept him, but there's the problem with Bruce still being alive in the past. I don't think the fans are going to just let that go, nor will they be satisfied with Bruce doing anything other than being the modern day Batman. So, I guess I'm really saying that Dick would cut it as Batman if it weren't for the fact that Bruce is still out there. Since he is, Dick's days in the cowl are numbered.

I love Dick Grayson. But I would prefer that he be Nightwing. I honestly understand why people actually prefer him to Bruce Wayne. Bruce is too 'perfect' whereas Dick isn't. But as far as I am concerned there wil only be one Batman and that is Bruce Wayne.

-Tim taking on a new identity is awesome, but this one is a little too Jason Todd. Red Robin is going to need to find a new direction (and possibly a better name) in order to work, but it can.

-Damian is everything that 50% of fans hated about Jason Todd enough to want to kill him. However, as long as Grant is writing even one Batman title, Damian will remain. After that, I think he can easily be discarded unless some other writer is able to do something compelling and less annoying with the character.

Ideally what I would like to see happen is when Bruce returns, have Damien go home to mommy and Tim resume being Robin.

On the other hand, Tim is pushing adulthood and it would be nice to see him strike out on his own. So I would love to see him be Red Robin permanently. Or let Damian be Robin, however only be a guest star in the books.

Batwoman can go the way of the dodo as soon as Ruka and JH Williams leave as far as I care. And if she would be so kind as to take Jason with her when she goes, I'll be ever so grateful and erect a shrine for her in the altar of my heart.

I see that you've been reading my mind.:smile:

Fatguy

08-17-2009, 10:39 AM

I'm hoping that Bruce comes back and resumes his role as Batman, Dick goes back to Nightwing, Tim stays Red Robin, and Detective stays Batwoman's book. I dont mind Damien Robin, so I'm also hoping Batman and Robin continues post-Morrison for the foreseeable future, focusing on the relationship between the two. I think Streets of Gotham has been ok, but I honestly dont really care whether it stays or goes. Sirens will be gone before long.

Batgirl and Azrael up in the air...but I have hopes for Azrael, for superficial reasons. I love his look!

Berkey

08-17-2009, 10:49 AM

Well DD said he had thought about killing Dick years ago, but he's doing a hell of a job as Bats now. I think this would be a great oppurtunity to allow Bruce to come back and reclaim the cowl and have Dick take on a new name/role.

Hell give him a jason todd-esque fell from BFTC, along the lines of more growth under his belt, but from that growth doing a little more than the usual bat rules permit (not killing) but worthy enough to wear a simialr cowl as the DK. Tim could get the bump to nightwing, damian could stay as robin to make some good father son stories and the role of red robin could be up in the air for a new character to be created.

Batwoman, not sure yet. she could be ok if the proper writer came aboard, or perhaps the new direction for GC Sirens could be a team up of Batwoman, spoiler, Batgirl (whereever she is now) and ther new batgirl. something along those lines

just a thought

Kal L

08-17-2009, 11:50 AM

I wouldn't be against Dick wearing the cape and cowl for a couple of years, to be honest. I love Bruce as Batman but it would be nice to allow Dick to continue as Bats for a while.

Bamf25

08-17-2009, 11:51 AM

Jake V

08-17-2009, 12:22 PM

shaxper

08-17-2009, 01:23 PM

I love Dick as Batman, but I'm under no illusions that this is going to be permanent, and I really doubt that anyone else thinks it will be permanent either.

It's just a fun ride that will probably last for a few years and hopefully end with a story about saving Bruce or Bruce coming back on his own. Once hes back, there's no way that Dick would want to hold on to the cape and cowl.

I think this is a likely prediction, but the question then becomes "what the heck do you do with a Dick Grayson who has been Batman?" Can he really go back to just being Nightwing? If not, wouldn't another new identity seem extraneous??

Jake V

08-17-2009, 01:33 PM

I think this is a likely prediction, but the question then becomes "what the heck do you do with a Dick Grayson who has been Batman?" Can he really go back to just being Nightwing? If not, wouldn't another new identity seem extraneous??

If Barry Allen can be the Flash again, I think Dick could be Nightwing.

He'd probably use the "this is who I really am" excuse before putting the costume back on.

shaxper

08-17-2009, 01:37 PM

If Barry Allen can be the Flash again, I think Dick could be Nightwing.

He'd probably use the "this is who I really am" excuse before putting the costume back on.

I think that would be a huge "F you" to the same fans who were pissed when Dan tried to kill him off. Dick has been cast off to the side for too long. To put him center stage and then marginalize him again would just suck. I was perfectly content with him being Nightwing, but now relegating him back to that position would take away its significance. Rather than it being his individualistic rise out of Batman's shadow into his own identity, it would be a demotion
: this is who he is since he can no longer be Batman.

David Walton

08-17-2009, 01:44 PM

I think that would be a huge "F you" to the same fans who were pissed when Dan tried to kill him off. Dick has been cast off to the side for too long. To put him center stage and then marginalize him again would just suck. I was perfectly content with him being Nightwing, but now relegating him back to that position would take away its significance. Rather than it being his individualistic rise out of Batman's shadow into his own identity, it would be a demotion
: this is who he is since he can no longer be Batman.

I don't know about that. I mean, this would be the first time Dick has successfully proven that he can the Batman identity his own. I don't think he really accomplished that with "Prodigal."

So even if he does become Nightwing again I wouldn't necessarily see it as a regression.

That said, I would like it very much if they could do something truly innovative with Dick if he returns to his Nightwing identity--like perhaps leading the Justice League? Now that would make for some great stories. Imagine Barry Allen and Hal Jordan's reaction to that!

Jake V

08-17-2009, 01:57 PM

I think that would be a huge "F you" to the same fans who were pissed when Dan tried to kill him off. Dick has been cast off to the side for too long. To put him center stage and then marginalize him again would just suck. I was perfectly content with him being Nightwing, but now relegating him back to that position would take away its significance. Rather than it being his individualistic rise out of Batman's shadow into his own identity, it would be a demotion
: this is who he is since he can no longer be Batman.

Are you reading the current books? They make it pretty clear that Dick doesn't want to be Batman. Dick is is wearing the mask because Gotham NEEDS a Batman. He says it himself; he isn't Batman, he's merely playing the role of Batman.

Fatguy

08-17-2009, 01:58 PM

Yeah, I dont think its a "demotion" to go back to his old ID. Dick identifies himself as Nightwing. It would feel pretty natural.

shaxper

08-17-2009, 02:15 PM

Are you reading the current books? They make it pretty clear that Dick doesn't want to be Batman. Dick is is wearing the mask because Gotham NEEDS a Batman. He says it himself; he isn't Batman, he's merely playing the role of Batman.

Naturally, that's where he's starting from. But we're not going to spend the next year or three watching him continue to doubt himself. Any good writer is going to show Dick starting from a point of humility and discomfort (as opposed to "Yey! Batman's dead and replaceable!") and then slowly make the persona his own. That moment in Dini's run where you see Batman smiling was, in my opinion, and early indication of this.

Once Dick makes the role his own, taking it away will be insulting.

Mia

08-17-2009, 02:33 PM

Naturally, that's where he's starting from. But we're not going to spend the next year or three watching him continue to doubt himself. Any good writer is going to show Dick starting from a point of humility and discomfort (as opposed to "Yey! Batman's dead and replaceable!") and then slowly make the persona his own. That moment in Dini's run where you see Batman smiling was, in my opinion, and early indication of this.

Once Dick makes the role his own, taking it away will be insulting.

But doubting himself, and not wanting to perform the role are two different things.

Dick might very well might be able and comfortable performing the role as Batman but not want to do it. Just the same way I can fill in and do my colleagues job while they are away, but not necessarily want to perform their job on a full time and regular basis.

AJM

08-17-2009, 03:55 PM

Once Dick makes the role his own, taking it away will be insulting.

In that case, there's no possible resolution that could please everyone, is there?

I really don't care what happens to the Bat-Family after this, it will be the same as always - a couple of great titles, a couple of okay ones and a couple of absolute howlers. I don't expect to like everything and i expect to truly hate some of it.

As for Dick, i still think he might die. If he doesn't, he'll be Nightwing again while Damian remains Robin. I think we'll definitely see a Bruce and Damian Batman and Robin under Morrison's name, and i think that could be brilliant. I absolutely love Damian as Robin when Morrison writes him but no other writer really seems to understand the balance between the good and bad in Damian. But that's not really a concern because all hints point to Morrison being on Batman for a long time yet.

xArkhamx

08-17-2009, 04:58 PM

Uh. I have no idea. I personally don't like it though. I'm not used to this...

Nathan

08-17-2009, 06:56 PM

sadly i too think Dick will die when Bruce come's back, the has been a few hints to this like Batman 666 and the line about the cowl being cursed for the next man to wear it from R.I.P, you may disagree with me on this one but i think if Dick does die then DC are killing the linch pin in the DCU,

oh what if he becomes Darkwing instaed of Nightwing...no...ok then ,ill go back into the corner

numberONE

08-17-2009, 07:06 PM

Jake V

08-17-2009, 07:13 PM

oh what if he becomes Darkwing instaed of Nightwing...no...ok then ,ill go back into the corner

A long as he also becomes a duck, I'd be all for it.

Captain Jim

08-17-2009, 08:36 PM

Yes. That's why they're no longer in print.

They ran their course. Very few titles last forever in comics and these both had very respectible runs.

Time and again, we've seen companies give a variety of titles to a legendary character (Batman, Superman, Spiderman), and each time, two seems to be the magic number: Batman/Detective, Superman/Action, Amazing Spiderman/Web of Spiderman. All those other titles fade out after only a few years because readers don't demand more than two ongoing titles for a character, especially when he or she is likely to make appearances in other titles anyway.

There was a long, long time when Peter Parker, Spectacular Spider-Man ran at the same time as Amazing and Web.

I have this wweeeeiiiiirrrdddd feeling that they're going to kill Tim and make Dick take the Red Robin mantle just because a couple of years ago Alex Ross said so.

I don't think so. I'm more worried about Dick dieing than Tim.

Streets of Gotham & Gotham City Sirens are, unfortunately, very bad. Hard to believe this is Dini writing. Get rid of the 2 series, put him on Batman. While Winick's writing isn't that bad, Dini is better.

This is a strange argument. You either like Dini's Batman writing or you don't. What difference does it make what title it's in?

On the other hand, most fans seem to like Streets just fine (myself included). Sirens is a lighter touch and not for everyone, but personally, I'm enjoying this one as well.

If Barry Allen can be the Flash again, I think Dick could be Nightwing.

What do those two have to do with each other? Barry didn't leave his role as the Flash to adopt another identity. It would make more sense if you said If Barry can be the Flash again, Bruce can be Batman again. At least that's a true parallel.

Jake V

08-17-2009, 09:10 PM

What do those two have to do with each other? Barry didn't leave his role as the Flash to adopt another identity. It would make more sense if you said If Barry can be the Flash again, Bruce can be Batman again. At least that's a true parallel.

Yeah, I dunno. It's the first thing that came to mind.

mofo

08-18-2009, 12:16 AM

This is a strange argument. You either like Dini's Batman writing or you don't. What difference does it make what title it's in?

Hah good point! Maybe it's psychological?

edit: Maybe DC can do good and bring back Brubaker, put him on Streets of Gotham with Rucka (Gotham Central Pt. 2!!!)?

edit 2: Whu....??? When did Chris Yost replace Dini on Streets of Gotham!?!?

CountAchilles

08-18-2009, 01:02 AM

Tim's doing great on his path,as of now and he should continue with his new identity. Same for Damian. Now,I don't think Batwoman will continue headlining the Detective comics as soon as soon as the writing staff changes.

Now,moving on,Dick is no Bruce Wayne. And that's a much deeper statement than it looks,sure he might be doing a great job in the current scenario and the fans are loving him. But,hey its happened in the past with Jean-Paul Valley too. The Knightfall arc went on for 2 years,before Bruce whipped Valley's ass and then disappeared again,handing over the cowl to Dick.

The main point is,Bruce will be back,but the time of his return depends upon the fans reaction. The day when people start getting bored of the "lighter" Batman,as portrated by Grayson,the guys at DC will set the things into motion for a quick Bruce Wayne comeback.

And,as for killing either Tim or Dick,I don't think that's going to happen.

Captain Jim

08-18-2009, 09:29 PM

edit 2: Whu....??? When did Chris Yost replace Dini on Streets of Gotham!?!?

I'm pretty sure it's only temporary.

Raharu

08-18-2009, 11:44 PM

One thing that I do kind of hope stays the same is Detective Comics. Not neccesarily with Batwoman, but use it as a book to promote other characters. Just keep B&R going post-Reborn and let that and Batman be the main Batbooks. If Detective starts going downhill with sales DC can regress it back, but I would like them to at least keep that open for awhile before they do

FeminineMystique

08-19-2009, 08:13 AM

I think...

-Will Tim remain as Red Robin?
Yes.
-Will Damian remain as Robin?
Yes.
-Will Batwoman remain as the primary feature in Detective Comics?
No.
-How many of the new titles will survive longer than a year?
All of them.

I REALLY hope you're wrong. I'm liking Kate at the moment and I'd rather have her stay as the main character than it go back to Bruce.

Don Quixote

08-19-2009, 02:36 PM

Red Robin is a pretty crappy identity, in my opinion. They need to come up with something new for Tim, if he's done being Robin. Just sticking a hood on him and adding 'Red' to the name doesn't cut it.

Damian will remain as Robin, unfortunately. At the moment, he's almost as unpleasant a presence as Jason Todd has been, so there needs to be a lot of growth and development before fans accept him as Robin.

I don't think Dick will be Batman for more than a couple of years, if that. Bruce will be back at some point. When that happens, I hope Dick can go back to being Nightwing, an identity he's much more comfortable with.

I just hope that DC plan to explore how the cowl changes the way people look at Dick. Those who before would seek his advice, or joke around with him, now being reticent to do so. It'd be a nice beat to hit, especially for a character as affable and outgoing as Dick.

TradePaperbackTraitor

08-19-2009, 02:43 PM

I just hope that DC plan to explore how the cowl changes the way people look at Dick. Those who before would seek his advice, or joke around with him, now being reticent to do so. It'd be a nice beat to hit, especially for a character as affable and outgoing as Dick.

In the latest Titans issue they alluded to that with Starfire kissing Batman who took off his mask and revealed he was Dick Grayson but it all ended up being a dream sequence in one of Starfire's shrink sessions. She admits she was surprisingly turned on until she found out it was Nightwing, because she always considered Batman a cold and distant figure. I agree, that would be good stuff to see Dick changing and not liking it. Right now, Morrison has him still trying to cope with his new role, but if he does grasp it, I would love to see him start mentally cracking down as he realizes it changes him, what he's about and the people around him. (Cue Bruce Wayne coming back and taking the costume back!) IMO, the most fun a writer can have with all of these new Batman themes is someone actually trying to live up to the unreachable standards of Bruce Wayne. Morrison seems to be the only writer who understands that, the other writers like Winnick and Dini just seem to be moving on with him each accepting it or becoming Nightwing with a cowl.

David Walton

08-19-2009, 02:49 PM

Don Quixote

08-19-2009, 02:53 PM

In the latest Titans issue they alluded to that with Starfire kissing Batman who took off his mask and revealed he was Dick Grayson but it all ended up being a dream sequence in one of Starfire's shrink sessions. She admits she was surprisingly turned on until she found out it was Nightwing, because she always considered Batman a cold and distant figure. I agree, that would be good stuff to see Dick changing and not liking it. Right now, Morrison has him still trying to cope with his new role, but if he does grasp it, I would love to see him start mentally cracking down as he realizes it changes him, what he's about and the people around him. (Cue Bruce Wayne coming back and taking the costume back!) IMO, the most fun a writer can have with all of these new Batman themes is someone actually trying to live up to the unreachable standards of Bruce Wayne. Morrison seems to be the only writer who understands that, the other writers like Winnick and Dini just seem to be moving on with him each accepting it or becoming Nightwing with a cowl.

Definitely. So far, most of the focus has been on the practicalities of being Batman. The cape is too heavy, the eye holes on the cowl aren't wide enough. That's all good stuff, but when that's dealt with, they need to focus in on the way being Batman affects him, and how it affects his relationships.

There's already been that issue where Tempest was uncomfortable confiding in Batman, so Dick took the cowl off to put him at ease. There should be more of that. And there should be plenty of opportunity in the new JLA lineup, especially with Donna in there.

I'd also love to see some more interaction with Superman. Bruce had somewhat difficult relationship with him, whilst Dick's always been on great terms with the guy. There's plenty of scope for people expecting a Batman reaction, and getting a Dick Grayson one, and vice versa.

Munkiman

08-19-2009, 03:06 PM

I'd like Tim to keep the Red Robin title as he becomes an adult. It shows an independence from Batman while still honoring the Robin legacy.

RonnieThunderbolts

08-19-2009, 03:08 PM

I'd like Tim to keep the Red Robin title as he becomes an adult. It shows an independence from Batman while still honoring the Robin legacy.

I totally agree with you Munikman. I think it is a role and title that could work out perfectly for Tim in the long term.

the-wolf

08-19-2009, 04:18 PM

the-wolf

08-19-2009, 04:29 PM

As for the OP, none of it. Nowadays one massive 2 year, 78-part epic leads into the next so that "everything you ever knew will end." It'll be "a bold new direction."

Too many writers today are simply out there to write their opus based on their childhood fan-boy fantasies and could give a rat's @$$ about the charcter in the long-term or any sort of long-term continuity. Disregard whatever pieces you want or dredge up pieces long since discarded. Doesn't matter.

I give it 4 years MAX before everything that occured in RIP doesn't matter worth a damn. New readers will have a heck of a time trying to sort through the completely incomprehensible history, but none of the current going-ons will reflect the current situation.

4 YEARS - MAX!

shaxper

08-19-2009, 09:43 PM

Except that Batman, Superman, Spider-man and even Wolverine (with just 1 official title) have all consistently appeared in more than 2 titles/month.

How do you figure? For most of Batman's history it's just been Batman/Detective. There have been many third titles over the years (from Brave and the Bold to Legends of the Dark Knight), but none have survived the long haul. Each gets knocked out as soon as DC wants to try something new.

Superman held onto three major titles longer than most, but even he lost one title coming out of Infinite Crisis.

Spiderman keeps starting and losing new titles left and right. Amazing is the only one that always seems to stick.

I'm not denying that each of these characters has, at times, carried more than two titles. During the early '90s in particular, it wasn't unusual for each of these guys to be carrying four titles, but how long did "Superman: Man of Steel," "Batman: Shadow of the Bat," or McFarlane's "Spiderman" last in the long run, and what lasting impact have they really made?

RonnieThunderbolts

08-19-2009, 10:12 PM

I'm not denying that each of these characters has, at times, carried more than two titles. During the early '90s in particular, it wasn't unusual for each of these guys to be carrying four titles, but how long did "Superman: Man of Steel," "Batman: Shadow of the Bat," or McFarlane's "Spiderman" last in the long run, and what lasting impact have they really made?

Shadow of the Bat and Man of Steel lasted 12 years each. Legends of the Dark Knight lasted 13. What did they really do in terms of impact? LOTDK had some of the best and most critically acclaimed Batman stories of the last 20 years and helped shape the image of the character for over a decade. All three of those titles are examples of third and fourth titles for Batman and Superman that last a lot longer than the longest runs of other characters, and can't be written off arbitrarily.

shaxper

08-19-2009, 10:17 PM

Shadow of the Bat and Man of Steel lasted 12 years each. Legends of the Dark Knight lasted 13.

Okay, I'll eat my words on this one. Honestly, I had no idea they'd been that successful. I left comics shortly after they started and came back to find that they were long gone. I naturally assumed they'd been short-lived.

Thanks for setting me straight. Maybe these new titles will make it after all...

RonnieThunderbolts

08-19-2009, 11:55 PM

Okay, I'll eat my words on this one. Honestly, I had no idea they'd been that successful. I left comics shortly after they started and came back to find that they were long gone. I naturally assumed they'd been short-lived.

Thanks for setting me straight. Maybe these new titles will make it after all...

Actually, I misspoke. I appreciate the quick acquiescence, and I was right about Man of Steel, but Shadow was only around for 8 years, so I was wrong about that and can freely admit it, but Legends of the Dark Knight was around from 1989 to 2007, so it was actually around for 17 and a half years. Nevertheless, none of it undoes or changes the points about third titles running for over a decade, that is all, thanks for understanding.

carabas

08-20-2009, 12:12 AM

-I don't think Batwoman has any staying power at all. The art is great, but the character isn't anything special. If she didn't have "Bat" in her name, she never would have made it as the star of DC's longest running and most historically important title. I give her a year, after which she'll get a short and easily-forgotten series of her own, only to finally make it onto the pages of The Outsiders or some other team title where she can finally earn her place.

-Streets of Gotham and Gotham City Sirens don't have a chance once Dini stops writing them. The first is an unnecessary title and the second features characters that, historically speaking, no one else has been able to keep interesting as the stars of their own titles. Red Robin can make it, though, but I think the title will need to change.

Yes. That's why they're no longer in print.

... All those other titles fade out after only a few years because readers don't demand more than two ongoing titles for a character, especially when he or she is likely to make appearances in other titles anyway.
Question: what does it matter whether or not the series folds when the current writer is done if the current writer is telling excellent stories? Do you buy comics because you enjoy great stories and art, or because you want to keep buying the same book for decads on end?
All of the really good comics (Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, Preacher, Sleeper...) are finite in nature. Are they unnecessary?

I feel the most unnecessary book right now is the 'main' book, Batman. It simply exists, nobody is doing anything special with it, they're just filling pages because not publishing the book would be unthinkable.

shaxper

08-20-2009, 05:00 AM

Question: what does it matter whether or not the series folds when the current writer is done if the current writer is telling excellent stories? Do you buy comics because you enjoy great stories and art, or because you want to keep buying the same book for decads on end?
All of the really good comics (Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, Preacher, Sleeper...) are finite in nature. Are they unnecessary?

I feel the most unnecessary book right now is the 'main' book, Batman. It simply exists, nobody is doing anything special with it, they're just filling pages because not publishing the book would be unthinkable.

Well this might easily be where I'm the weirdo that no one will agree with (not like that hasn't happened before!).

Obviously, story quality is incredibly important but, when it comes right down to it, comics are mostly a disposable form of entertainment. Most of these massively decompressed story arcs that we buy into end up disappointing or (at best) fading out of memory in the long run. Of the 5,000+ comics in my collection, maybe four hundred are particularly memorable to me.

So I look to comics as a way of staying connected to my favorite characters and, somehow, the continuation of a long run does this best for me. A short lived Batman series from the 1990s evokes memories of that particular and finite time period in that character's history for me. However, a Batman series that's been running for 70+ years...that's legacy to me. It feels like it's part of something more important somehow.

nepenthes

08-20-2009, 06:03 AM

Most of what's happening will definitely "last" in some shape or form - the characters might move on from the names and costumes but this period will always be a defining moment for each of them. This will last more than Fugitive or War Crimes for example.

Damian is the fifth official Robin: the original heir/apprentice as finally become the Batman himself: Drake is at last truly coming into his own: and Kate Kane for the first time in her publication is becoming a unique and coherent character. These are all major developments that nothing can ever really undo, even if the story inevitably moves past this stage.

If all we're discussing is names and costumes..well, I dunno.... have fun with that....

I feel the most unnecessary book right now is the 'main' book, Batman. It simply exists, nobody is doing anything special with it, they're just filling pages because not publishing the book would be unthinkable.

it's strange isn't it

shaxper

08-20-2009, 06:12 AM

Most of what's happening will definitely "last" in some shape or form - the characters might move on from the names and costumes but this period will always be a defining moment for each of them. This will last more than Fugitive or War Crimes for example.

Damian is the fifth official Robin: the original heir/apprentice as finally become the Batman himself: Drake is at last truly coming into his own: and Kate Kane for the first time in her publication is becoming a unique and coherent character. These are all major developments that nothing can ever really undo, even if the story inevitably moves past this stage.

I'd like to believe you, but all it takes is a retcon punch or, in less extreme circumstances, Bruce coming back and a new creative team putting everyone back in their old identities. Kate Kane probably isn't going anywhere, but Dick can go back to Nightwing, Tim can go back to Robin, and Damian can be killed off and forgotten far easier than Stephanie Brown almost was. If DC ever wanted to start convincing us that there had only ever been three Robins, they could do it. It feels a bit like Orwell's 1984 sometimes.

carabas

08-20-2009, 07:12 AM

Obviously, story quality is incredibly important but, when it comes right down to it, comics are mostly a disposable form of entertainment. Most of these massively decompressed story arcs that we buy into end up disappointing or (at best) fading out of memory in the long run. Of the 5,000+ comics in my collection, maybe four hundred are particularly memorable to me.I have no idea of how many comics I own, but it is a lot. Easily 5000+. Most of them are memorable to me. The ones that are least memorable to me are often those that are part of these endlesly ongoing series like Batman and Action comics.

So I look to comics as a way of staying connected to my favorite characters and, somehow, the continuation of a long run does this best for me.I dpn't. I gave up on following particular characters a long, long time ago. I buy comics because I like the writings of Grant Morrison, Greg Rucka, Gail Simone... As a result the amount of crap, unmemorable comics I buy has decreased dramarically compared to back when I was just buying everything Batman.

A short lived Batman series from the 1990s evokes memories of that particular and finite time period in that character's history for me. However, a Batman series that's been running for 70+ years...that's legacy to me. It feels like it's part of something more important somehow.I take the opposite view. A canceled but superb series from long agao (Chase, Hitman...) will always trump uncancelable books that just continue to exist, month in, month out, regardles whether the writers had anything interesting to say that month or not, like Batman or Uncanny X-Men, to me.
Books like Animal Man, Simone's run on Birds Of Prey #56-108 (but not 1-55 and 109-124, just the Gail Simone run), Chase, Lekends Of The Dark Knight, Brubaker's run on Catwoman... Those are to me the important ones, the memorable one, the ones that stand up to rereading again and again.

shaxper

08-20-2009, 07:28 AM

I have no idea of how many comics I own, but it is a lot. Easily 5000+. Most of them are memorable to me. The ones that are least memorable to me are often those that are part of these endlesly ongoing series like Batman and Action comics.

Then I envy you :)

I dpn't. I gave up on following particular characters a long, long time ago. I buy comics because I like the writings of Grant Morrison, Greg Rucka, Gail Simone... As a result the amount of crap, unmemorable comics I buy has decreased dramarically compared to back when I was just buying everything Batman.

And there's the difference. Those writers rarely do anything for me. Morrison has been memorable in the past, but I haven't enjoyed anything he's done since the second half of Seven Soldiers. Simone writes witty, likable characters, but her stories feel highly disposable to me. I will always cherish Rucka's runs on WW and Gotham Central, but he hasn't left me with any other fond memories.

Maybe my standards are just too high, which ends up leaving me appreciating substandard stuff since few comics meet my standards anyway.

I take the opposite view. A canceled but superb series from long agao (Chase, Hitman...) will always trump uncancelable books that just continue to exist, month in, month out, regardles whether the writers had anything interesting to say that month or not, like Batman or Uncanny X-Men, to me.
Books like Animal Man, Simone's run on Birds Of Prey #56-108 (but not 1-55 and 109-124, just the Gail Simone run), Chase, Lekends Of The Dark Knight, Brubaker's run on Catwoman... Those are to me the important ones, the memorable one, the ones that stand up to rereading again and again.

Well there are some micro runs out there that I will always remember and cherish. Probably my favorite frequent back issue read of all time is Kirby's Kamandi, which lasted for all of four years before he left and the whole thing went downhill.

Overall, though, when we're not talking about AMAZING work on that sort of level, I'd rather collect a long-term sampling of "Batman" then a short lived Batman tertiary title because, when I go back through my issues, I will be able to watch Batman's evolution across a long period of time. I may think that a few creative stints on the book are utter trash, but it's still fun to watch the progressions and changes. My run of "Batman Family," while higher quality than a lot of the regular Batman stuff I have, will always only reflect one fixed dimension of the character. I'll go back to it when I want to specifically re-read those stories, but not for fun and mindless trips through my collection for guilty pleasure reads.

neverman

08-20-2009, 01:26 PM

I'd like to see Dick and Barbara lead the Bat-gang for a while before Bruce's inevitable return. It might be interesting to see them actually do a better job than Bruce; that would create some cool conflict unlike any we've seen from the three central "Bat" heroes.

Raharu

08-20-2009, 02:34 PM

Most of what's happening will definitely "last" in some shape or form - the characters might move on from the names and costumes but this period will always be a defining moment for each of them. This will last more than Fugitive or War Crimes for example.

Damian is the fifth official Robin: the original heir/apprentice as finally become the Batman himself: Drake is at last truly coming into his own: and Kate Kane for the first time in her publication is becoming a unique and coherent character. These are all major developments that nothing can ever really undo, even if the story inevitably moves past this stage.

I'm sorry, and I'm trying not to sound insulting here, but this is a very naive statement if you're being serious. No matter how good some may think this period is at shaping these characters, there is simply no fail-safe guarantee that all this can never be undone. If Hal Jordan and Cassandra Cain has thought us anything, it's that development of a character in either direction has no such fail-safe guarantee.

the-wolf

08-20-2009, 04:05 PM

Couldn't agree more. I wonder if in 20 years we'll see Robin 6 as Damien becomes Rogue Robin?

shaxper

08-20-2009, 06:14 PM

Couldn't agree more. I wonder if in 20 years we'll see Robin 6 as Damien becomes Rogue Robin?

Robin 6? Are you counting Carrie Kelly?

the-wolf

08-21-2009, 04:35 PM

Robin 6? Are you counting Carrie Kelly?

Of course not. That's a long ways off.

carabas

08-21-2009, 11:04 PM

Robin 6? Are you counting Carrie Kelly?
He's counting Stephanie Brown.

Narcissisticnation

09-02-2009, 02:37 PM

I'd like to see the entire Batman: Reborn series continue for at least a year, year and a half. Good story. The Gotham City Sirens is alittle off but with the right writer could be a good book. And figure out something for Batwoman, like give her her own title perhaps?

BloodOps

09-02-2009, 03:21 PM

I still believe Dick will be killed when Bruce returns.

Raharu

09-02-2009, 04:29 PM

I still believe Dick will be killed when Bruce returns.

What makes you think this?

Earl of the RCs

09-02-2009, 07:21 PM

Dick is still currently Nightwing. That's who he is. He may be dressing in the Batman costume, but he's still Nightwing at heart, so him `going back' to being Nightwing isn't a regression or a demotion (when it eventually happens, who knows when) its just a return. Maybe he'll become the feature character of Detective Comics and Batwoman will move to a different title? Maybe Tim will become the lead character of Detective Comics and Dick will finally get to lead the JLA lmore or less permanantly (like he was born to). Maybe Jason will get the psyciatric help he needs from a lifetime of trauma, become field leader for the Sucide Squad for a while until he `pays his debt to society' (for killing some drug dealers and gangster's thugs) and then starts a shelter/martial arts academy/ bording school for homeless & troubled youth (with his brothers, sister and other `bat-famoly' members ocassionally working as guest teachers) the students of which eventually become an in-continity `sons of the bat' gang. Maybe Cassie will get her own day time talk and fitness show.

Its comics people; anything could happen (and nothing undermines what has happened before!)

Narcissisticnation

09-03-2009, 11:52 AM

Iunno I'd like to see Dick be Batman for at least a year.

carabas

09-03-2009, 11:55 AM

Iunno I'd like to see Dick be Batman for at least a year.And you're going to. That much at least is set in stone.

The Syko

09-06-2009, 06:24 PM

As long as Tim Drake lives,I'll enjoy the Bat-Books.

Although,the same can not be said for Stephanie Brown.

At least not as Batgirl.

I don't like it.

Brack360

09-07-2009, 11:04 AM

Batwoman is here to stay.

Damian will either be killed or written out of commission when Morrison's run is over. I doubt he will remain in the Batman mythos for the long term.

Eventually, Bruce will return as Batman, Dick will go back to Nightwing, and Tim will go back to Robin.

The new Batgirl book will be a critical and commercial failure and will reinforce DC's belief that Barbara Gordon is the only commercially viable Batgirl. Barbara will return as Batgirl in her own ongoing within the next couple years, pushing both Cass and Steph into limbo. Cass may very likely be killed off, but they won't kill Steph again.

Batman & Robin and Streets of Gotham will remain published for the long term. Batwoman will move to her own ongoing after about 18 issues in Detective. Red Robin will last barely a year, and both Batgirl and GC Sirens will not last much more than that.

myme

09-07-2009, 01:06 PM

The new Batgirl book will be a critical and commercial failure and will reinforce DC's belief that Barbara Gordon is the only commercially viable Batgirl. Barbara will return as Batgirl in her own ongoing within the next couple years, pushing both Cass and Steph into limbo. Cass may very likely be killed off, but they won't kill Steph again.
Are you working in a comic-shop? How do you come to the conclusion, that the Batgirl book will fail?

carabas

09-07-2009, 02:20 PM

Are you working in a comic-shop? How do you come to the conclusion, that the Batgirl book will fail?
Zero promotional push. Their big mystery information blackout hype thing seems to have turned more people off the book rather than it attracted.
A third rank female Bat-satelite (Robin's ex-girlfriend. She was the suporting character's supporting character).
Half of the Batgirl fans want Cass back, the other half wants Babs.
The book goes out of its way to piss off both the Babs fans and the Cass fans.
A no-name artist and rookie writer means zero pull from the creative side of things.

It has purdy covers, but I seriously doubt a book can survive on just covers.

I doubt it'll run longer than six months.

Raharu

09-07-2009, 05:00 PM

Barbara will return as Batgirl in her own ongoing within the next couple years,

Lets pray this will not come to pass.

Batman & Robin and Streets of Gotham will remain published for the long term. Batwoman will move to her own ongoing after about 18 issues in Detective. Red Robin will last barely a year, and both Batgirl and GC Sirens will not last much more than that.

Yeah, I really don't see that happening. I'd say Red Robin has more staying power than either Sirens or Streets. I like them a lot better, but I don't see them as being here this long, especially since I believe both of them started off as the lowest salers.

Captain Jim

09-07-2009, 06:17 PM

Jorriss

09-07-2009, 06:18 PM

Lets pray this will not come to pass.

I doubt it will, I see no reason for Barbara to be back as Batgirl.

nepenthes

09-07-2009, 08:32 PM

I'm thinking that when Morrison leaves the best way to restore the status quo (if it's absolutely neccersarry :rolleyes: ) is to send Dick and Damian off into space for a while. They get their own new title (weird adventures on other planets) or we just don't hear from them for a few years, either way works fine. Until that happens though, I'm thinking that....

Batman & Robin sees at least 36 issues
Dick and Damian keep their current costumes for at least 30 issues
Bruce does not immediently return to Batman after he returns in 700, but his story continues in another title e.g. Detective
Red Robin finishes after 12 issues, Tim Drake takes up another costume in a new title e.g. Detective or Streets
Streets of Gotham sees at least 36 issues, ends with Batman & Robin
Greg Rucka ends Batwoman run after 18 issues, Detective Comics becomes a rotating title for characters such as The Question, Tim Drake, Bruce Wayne, Huntress, Azrael
Batgirl finishes at around 12 issues (no way it makes 24 with this team and lead character)
Gotham Sirens finishes around 12 issues (unless Gail Simone or Chris Yost come on to rescue it)

Psavell2

09-07-2009, 10:20 PM

Detective Comics becomes a rotating title for characters such as The Question, Tim Drake, Bruce Wayne, Huntress, Azrael

Get out of my head! I've been thinking that same thing, except I could also see Streets being converted to an anthology. All they would have to do is take the Batman: off the top of the title.

Earl of the RCs

09-08-2009, 12:58 AM

I love the idea of Detective Comcis as a rotating cast of detectives (add detective chimp, riddler, nightwing, the ghost of ralph dibney, jason bard to that list too). Id prefer streets becoming a noir title. (but could still end up featuring at least half of those charcters!)

myme

09-08-2009, 02:10 AM

Zero promotional push. Their big mystery information blackout hype thing seems to have turned more people off the book rather than it attracted.
A third rank female Bat-satelite (Robin's ex-girlfriend. She was the suporting character's supporting character).
Half of the Batgirl fans want Cass back, the other half wants Babs.
The book goes out of its way to piss off both the Babs fans and the Cass fans.
A no-name artist and rookie writer means zero pull from the creative side of things.
Well, there are quite a lot of books out there, that I don't like. And they all survive, because other people like them and buy them. So, even though I don't like the Batgirl book, I can't tell its success or failure. If I would be working in a comic-shop and would see customers reaction on the book, like dropping it like hot potatoes after flipping through it, then that would be an indicator about the books potential to succeed.

It has purdy covers, but I seriously doubt a book can survive on just covers.
To be honest, these P. Noto covers aren't his best, I don't like them.

I doubt it'll run longer than six months.
What is the base for your guess? Your own dislike of the book or some more hard facts?

carabas

09-08-2009, 02:18 AM

Well, there are quite a lot of books out there, that I don't like. And they all survive, because other people like them and buy them. So, even though I don't like the Batgirl book, I can't tell its success or failure. If I would be working in a comic-shop and would see customers reaction on the book, like dropping it like hot potatoes after flipping through it, then that would be an indicator about the books potential to succeed.There is a vast difference between a book I do not like surviving anyway, and a Batgirl book that goes out of its way to piss off the vast majority of the fanbase of both the previous Batgirls surviving.

What is the base for your guess? Your own dislike of the book or some more hard facts?Didn't read my post, did you?
And I don't dislike the book. I haven't even read the book because I am not even slightly interested in it. I do dislike the premise for the book.

myme

09-08-2009, 04:11 AM

Didn't read my post, did you? I did, but it wasn't clear to me, that you read it or not.
And I don't dislike the book. I haven't even read the book because I am not even slightly interested in it. I do dislike the premise for the book.Your premise leaves out some facts:
- the book might attract new readers, those who were previously distracted from the Batgirl book for some reasons (maybe too dark, whatever)
- the Steph fans proclaim to be a large group who actually managed to revive Steph after her "War Games" death.
- not every Cass or Babs fan is a die hard fan and might get along with Steph being Batgirl and buy it, even though they are not really happy now.

So the book might find enough readers to keep it around for quite some time. When there show up some sale figures for the book, then we may predict how long it will survive.

I admit, the premise of the book isn't that good. But it isn't that bad either, to justify a sudden death.

Brack360

09-08-2009, 09:30 AM

This is truly amazing. I disagree with almost everything you've said. Exceptions being B&R, SOG and possibly Sirens.

Well, these are just my predictions. My reasoning for thinking that Red Robin won't last long is that I think Tim will go back to being Robin once Bruce inevitably returns as Batman, and that would render a Red Robin book moot. Red Robin also has the most low-profile creative team aside from Batgirl.

invisiboy

09-08-2009, 10:55 AM

not every Cass or Babs fan is a die hard fan and might get along with Steph being Batgirl and buy it, even though they are not really happy now.

I'm not a die hard fan, but I do like most of the Babs Batgirl stories I have read (BGY1 was great). Cass never really captured my interest, but I can see how someone would like that character. But Spoiler as Batgirl? With former Batgirls as supporting characters? This seems too lame to work. I picked up issue one out of curiosity, but I won't be getting another. I'll just leaf through it at the shop. I wouldn't spend anymore money on this. There are too many other books with more promise.

Talisman

09-08-2009, 12:42 PM

I hope this sticks for quite some time. I actually want to jump into the Bat books again. After the mess that R.I.P. left them, this is giving me a chance to be excited about them again.

FeminineMystique

09-08-2009, 03:03 PM

I'm thinking that when Morrison leaves the best way to restore the status quo (if it's absolutely neccersarry :rolleyes: ) is to send Dick and Damian off into space for a while. They get their own new title (weird adventures on other planets) or we just don't hear from them for a few years, either way works fine. Until that happens though, I'm thinking that....

Batman & Robin sees at least 36 issues
Dick and Damian keep their current costumes for at least 30 issues
Bruce does not immediently return to Batman after he returns in 700, but his story continues in another title e.g. Detective
Red Robin finishes after 12 issues, Tim Drake takes up another costume in a new title e.g. Detective or Streets
Streets of Gotham sees at least 36 issues, ends with Batman & Robin
Greg Rucka ends Batwoman run after 18 issues, Detective Comics becomes a rotating title for characters such as The Question, Tim Drake, Bruce Wayne, Huntress, AzraelBatgirl finishes at around 12 issues (no way it makes 24 with this team and lead character)
Gotham Sirens finishes around 12 issues (unless Gail Simone or Chris Yost come on to rescue it)

God I hope not. I want Batwoman to remain the main character. There's already Streets of Gotham as a spotlight for the supporting cast and Batman has two other books to have a starring role in. Leave Kate as the main character in Detetive for as long as Rucka is writing her.

dodger8804

09-08-2009, 04:03 PM

I like Gotham City Sirens as long as Dini is writing. Harley Quinn has always been a popular character with batman fans so I think Dini will want to keep writing that series.

Doc Goblin

09-08-2009, 04:29 PM

I'd like to see the Question become a staple of Detective Comics. Batwoman? I could go either way. I'm enjoying her story, but I'm not a hardcore fan of hers yet. I wouldn't really complain if Batman became the star of the title again.

I expect Red Robin to become Robin with Tim Drake returning to that role once he's done having his little nervous breakdown over Bruce's death. Trying to grow Tim out of being Robin is just a bad idea. There isn't much for the character to say as an adult Robin.

I don't expect Streets of Gotham or Gotham City Sirens to be long for this world. They exist too much as Dini's pet projects. I'm not sure what Streets of Gotham is even supposed to be about anymore. It just seems random.

I'm hoping for Batgirl to make it. Sadly, it isn't off to a great start. DC treated this part of the Bat-verse as an afterthought. It can last if the writing is good though.

Batman & Robin will probably go with Morrison, and Damian will go too. He's interesting as Dick's Robin, because in that duo he's the dark one. Not the case when Bruce returns to the cowl.

I guess I'm expecting most stuff to go back to how it was before Battle for the Cowl.

nepenthes

09-08-2009, 05:54 PM

God I hope not. I want Batwoman to remain the main character. There's already Streets of Gotham as a spotlight for the supporting cast and Batman has two other books to have a starring role in. Leave Kate as the main character in Detetive for as long as Rucka is writing her.

I agree, and I'd like to see Rucka produce a very long run on Batwoman but as I said i have a feeling he'll only stay on it for about 18 maybe 24 issues and then leave. After that it should become an anthology book I mean

Captain Jim

09-08-2009, 11:26 PM

There is a vast difference between a book I do not like surviving anyway, and a Batgirl book that goes out of its way to piss off the vast majority of the fanbase of both the previous Batgirls surviving.

Overreact much? :rolleyes:

God I hope not. I want Batwoman to remain the main character. There's already Streets of Gotham as a spotlight for the supporting cast and Batman has two other books to have a starring role in. Leave Kate as the main character in Detetive for as long as Rucka is writing her.

If Batwoman remains popular for the long haul (as in, when Williams leaves), I fully expect her to get her own title. Detective will eventually return to being a Batman title, as sure as Bruce will be back.

John Zaleski

09-09-2009, 06:36 AM

Ideally (for me):
Damian dies.
Dick rebecomes Nightwing.
Bruce is Batman.
NO Robin.
won't happen but still......

But i like the current status quo and odnt mind the lack of bruce.

invisiboy

09-10-2009, 12:33 PM

" Overreact much? "

He obviously cares a lot, which I think is a good thing. And i agree with him to an extent. DC divides its characters' fanbases when it adds another Aquaman, another Flash, another Batgirl, another Robin, another Wonder Girl, etc.

invisiboy

09-10-2009, 12:37 PM

"Damian dies.
Dick rebecomes Nightwing.
Bruce is Batman.
NO Robin."

IMHO, DC could do away with all Batman's good-guy supporting cast, except Alfred, Jim, Dick, Babs and Helena. The rest (Damien, Jason, Tim, Cass, Steph)seem unnecessary to me. And Dick and Babs can be called whatever codename -- just because they were robin and batgirl doesn't mean (a) that they need to keep that name or (b) that we need ten more Robins and Batgirls running aorund. IMHO, DC needs to simplify its casts.

Raharu

09-10-2009, 05:42 PM

Yeah, they aren't getting rid of Robin.

Jawa

09-12-2009, 10:17 AM

Here's what makes the most sense to me, and could happen in any order at any time. This is where I see things eventually winding up in the next couple of years:

Bruce Wayne becomes Batman again (obviously).
Tim drops the "red" and becomes Robin again. RED ROBIN is cancelled. BATMAN & ROBIN now stars Bruce and Tim.
Dick becomes Nightwing again, and gets his own co-feature in one of the Bat-titles.
Stephanie remains Batgirl in her own series.
Batwoman gets her own series or miniseries.
STREETS OF GOTHAM is cancelled (although I really dig the book).
Bruce as Batman takes over once again as the star of DETECTIVE COMICS. Rotating cast of detectives share the co-feature.
GOTHAM CITY SIRENS remains, but expands to include the likes of Cassie, Huntress, and others.

Raharu

09-12-2009, 12:19 PM

Nightwing just a co-feature? I'd say they'd just restart his series again, I don't know why they wouldn't. I believe it sold well enough to keep going before it got axed for all this Batman Reborn stuff

stillanerd

09-12-2009, 02:11 PM

Well, for starters, Bruce Wayne is going to come back and resume the mantle of Batman, of course, since even the writers acknowledge Batman just isn't Batman if he isn't Bruce. However, he does so because Dick Grayson gets shot and in coma and he has to rescue Damien from selling his soul to Doctor Hurt (as hinted in Batman #666). Batman finally stops Hurt for good but the consequences are:

*Damien (who is revealed not to be Bruce's and Talia's son but actually his clone) ends up getting killed after making a heroic sacrifice to save his "father."
*Thanks to Hurt's schemes, Batman is now officially branded a criminal and murderer, although still he's allied with Commissioner Gordon (thus taking a cue from the Dark Knight).
*He and Dick have a falling out, partly because Bruce reprimanded Dick for taking on the role of Batman even though he specifically told Dick not to in his will and for certain decisions he made (like making a deal with Hush, not properly controlling Damien, allowing criminals to not be afraid of Batman, etc.) and Dick--angry over Damien death--leaves in anger, much to Bruce's regret.
*Talia now firmly becomes Batman's enemy, blaming him for the death of their "son."
*Bruce tries to readjust to his life after being gone for so long, essentially having to start from the ground up.

As for the rest:
*Dick becomes Nightwing and leader of the Titans again, but wants nothing to do with Batman.
*Tim stays on as Red Robin, but essentially goes his own way, having realized that he's "grown up" to the point he can no longer be Robin anymore, although he still acts the "Agent of the Bat," so to speak for problems outside of Gotham.
*Bruce allows Stephanie to be continue on as Batgirl, although he's somewhat wary of this.
*The new Robin ends up being Cassandra Cain, thus Batman and Robin continues on.
*Bruce, along with Alfred, head up the Outsiders.
*Detective Comics features Batman stories and Batwoman back-ups, or Batwoman gets her own series.
*Streets of Gotham is still published.
*If Gotham Sirens is still around, Catwoman acts as Batman's "undercover agent" to keep an eye on Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn, and the criminal underworld.