Wonder Woman Woes..

[FailureByDesign]

Im fairly new to the DC universe, im aware of the trinity and how Superman,Batman and Wonder Woman are D.C's iconic characters..however, i've looked around and as far as i can see Wonder Woman never really gets the great stories Batman and Superman do. I was just wondering why this was? Thanks!

[RyleKayner]

Im fairly new to the DC universe, im aware of the trinity and how Superman,Batman and Wonder Woman are D.C's iconic characters..however, i've looked around and as far as i can see Wonder Woman never really gets the great stories Batman and Superman do. I was just wondering why this was? Thanks!

She does have some excellent stories. But they're not as popular as Supes' and Bats' because she's not as popular as Supes and Bats.

If you want to read some awesome Wondy stories, try The Hiketika by Greg Ruka or The Golden Perfect by Joe Kelly or A League of One by Christopher Moeller.

Apparently Gail Simone is currently writing a brilliant Wondy too.

[galactica]

A few reasons that may or may not be related.

You don't hear many saying talking about how they are dying to do a WW project.

Wonder Woman has one ongoing title and almost no miniseries. The only place she appears regularly outside her one title is JLA and she always shares that with 6 or more characters. Superman and Batman always have at least two ongoing titles(Superman/Action Comics, Batman/Detective Comics) in addition to that there are family books, spin-off books, maybe a third ongoing, in-continuity miniseries, out-of-continuity miniseries, etc. When you have that much product out there, especially with stand alone miniseries that allow writers to do almost anything they want, you are bound to get some very good stories every month, a great story every year and an absolute classic every few years. For WW it's the solo title or nothing. JLA may go a few years without a WW-centric story(when was the last time a WW baddie was the big bad in a JLA arc?).

[Jim Thompson]

Certainly doesn't help she is a female character in what is a primarily male dominated hobby. All too often, I think female characters are seen as being of secondary interest -- or worst, nothing more than objects. Just read what some fans are saying about the return of the Black Cat over in Spider-Man. Shoot, for that matter, just read how a lot of those fans regard Peter's relationships with women as a whole. They are really referred to, treated as, things for enjoyment as opposed to potentially interesting characters to explore.

In such an environment, it's sometimes amazing to me Wonder Woman does as well as she does.

[Aghast]

The stuff that's going on in Wonder Woman right now is kinda boring to me. Rucka's run was good.

An idea I had was that DC should put out a Vertigo Wonder Woman title focusing maybe on the mythology and history of the Amazons. It could be written by Mike Carey or heh heh Neil Gaimen. Maybe that title--if done correctly--would spark some more interest in the main WW book.

Just an idea.

[Spiffy]

We've talked about this ad infinitum on this forum (and especially in the YABS forum elsewhere on this site).

It boils down to one line, three words "She's a chick".

Sad but true. It's not a quality evaluation of her in any way, it's just how the male dominated audience reacts to that. And the response of the writers is to not want to write for her (plus, BECAUSE "she's a chick" many of them don't even know HOW to write for her... another reason for so few "great Wonder Woman stories".

Also, the lack of movies (again, because "she's a chick") means that unlike Batsy and Supesy, people outside of comic book fandom have less to balance the campy TV version of her against, thus again inhibiting the demand for her product, and again meaning less creators will invest time and energy into thinking about "the great WW story".

She's a chick.

[WorstThingUS]

We've talked about this ad infinitum on this forum (and especially in the YABS forum elsewhere on this site).

It boils down to one line, three words "She's a chick".

Sad but true. It's not a quality evaluation of her in any way, it's just how the male dominated audience reacts to that. And the response of the writers is to not want to write for her (plus, BECAUSE "she's a chick" many of them don't even know HOW to write for her... another reason for so few "great Wonder Woman stories".

Also, the lack of movies (again, because "she's a chick") means that unlike Batsy and Supesy, people outside of comic book fandom have less to balance the campy TV version of her against, thus again inhibiting the demand for her product, and again meaning less creators will invest time and energy into thinking about "the great WW story".

She's a chick.

I think it's it's more "She's a chick who doesn't fit a classic heroic archetype." A warrior here to bring peace through love is a difficult nut to crack and I don't think a male character with the same background is going to be much easier to write.

[Chiroptera]

We've talked about this ad infinitum on this forum (and especially in the YABS forum elsewhere on this site).

It boils down to one line, three words "She's a chick".

Sad but true. It's not a quality evaluation of her in any way, it's just how the male dominated audience reacts to that. And the response of the writers is to not want to write for her (plus, BECAUSE "she's a chick" many of them don't even know HOW to write for her... another reason for so few "great Wonder Woman stories".

Also, the lack of movies (again, because "she's a chick") means that unlike Batsy and Supesy, people outside of comic book fandom have less to balance the campy TV version of her against, thus again inhibiting the demand for her product, and again meaning less creators will invest time and energy into thinking about "the great WW story".

She's a chick.

I think it's it's more "She's a chick who doesn't fit a classic heroic archetype." A warrior here to bring peace through love is a difficult nut to crack and I don't think a male character with the same background is going to be much easier to write.

I suspect both those culminate to form the most solid answer. IT really is disheartening to see this character that has so much potential for great story telling largely ignored by the populace because they either "Don't get her" "Don't know what to do with her" or just "Don't like her."
It's also sad that so many of them say the reason they dislike her is the old Linda Carter show. Where would Batman be now if people refused to write about him or read his adventures based on their dislike of the old Adam West show? :frown:

[Spiffy]

I think it's it's more "She's a chick who doesn't fit a classic heroic archetype." A warrior here to bring peace through love is a difficult nut to crack and I don't think a male character with the same background is going to be much easier to write.
No.

Just "she's a chick". And it has little to do with how hard or easy she is to write, it has more to do with numbers, and creators responding to demand and writing more stories. You need quantity, pure and simple, to eventually get that collection of "great stories", that catalogue of past classics, the initial poster was asking about. And while WW has been around a lot of years, theoretically giving a lot of chances for great stories, in all of those years she's been handled by a comparatively small number of creators (at least as the main character of a book).

So it's about volume, and the impossibility of "selling" her that way. Making her a classic hero archtype wouldn't suddenly make sexually insecure Comic Book Geeks, who don't think much past "I want to read about characters I identify strongest with" (i.e. who have a penis) start snapping up her books in droves in such quantities that her sales would radically increase, creators would take notice, and side projects would pop up.

Red Sonja is a classic hero archtype. Sonja's sales as an independent book are okay, but that's still an independent. But remember that years back Sonja was a Marvel book. Was she getting this huge success you think Wonder Woman would magically have if her philosophical point of view was less confusing? Probably not.

You are right that a male character who was some kind of peacenick wouldn't make big numbers. But the reasons for that wouldn't be because its confusing to people. It would be because, again, it wouldn't cater to the stock male fan mentality. But plug a female character into a hoo-rah Warrior first spot? You get Sonja, or Witchblade, or Buffy, etc. All popular. But none of them get multiple books running simultaneously at one of the Big 2 either. Because even in that "best case" for a successful female fronted book, it's not going to garner those huge numbers. Those characters can be decent successes in a single book, IF they are lucky.

[West Mantooth]

So, honestly, what do you guys think WW should be selling? Keep in mind, John's Action comics still only sold 50,000 on average.



No.
So it's about volume, and the impossibility of "selling" her that way. Making her a classic hero archtype wouldn't suddenly make sexually insecure Comic Book Geeks, who don't think much past "I want to read about characters I identify strongest with" (i.e. who have a penis) start snapping up her books in droves in such quantities that her sales would radically increase, creators would take notice, and side projects would pop up.

That's really lame. It's the same kind of broadbrushing that says the majority of comic nerds live in their basements and can't get a girlfriend to save their life.

[KET]

We've talked about this ad infinitum on this forum (and especially in the YABS forum elsewhere on this site).

It boils down to one line, three words "She's a chick".


More likely it boils down to the fact that at DC, no 'chicks' are really in charge there. :biggrin:

It's basically an ongoing corporate boondoggle with a character which represents ideas that the company is too scared and sheepish to see published anymore (such as bondage and female suppression).The real problem always centers around the fact that today's writers and editors seem to think that Wonder Woman should be shaped to be 'relevant to today's more sophisticated audience', and then do a 180 run around whatever makes Wonder Woman special.

She's a heroine sent to 'man's world' with a weapon which forces people to speak the truth, and everybody at DC keeps running away from this point. Even Gail Simone, who decided that WW needed some sort of 'internal conflict' (and more pointless physical fisticuffs) by watering down the basic concept with crap ideas like Genocide. And she probably keeps wondering why that nonsense didn't work.

What would make Wonder Woman interesting? Portray her more like a feminist Namor, and then she'd probably make more sense as a character. Just give her a PERSONALITY, for right now, she's still cardboard.

[galactica]

Wonder Woman has a lot of problems that go beyond "She's a chick." Frankly I think that's a cop out. It implies that there is absolutely nothing wrong wrong with the characters and everything is the fault of the readers, or rather the non-readers. I believe there are people who wouldn't read WW because "she's a chick" but I think there are more people who don't care. Maybe many people just don't find the characters interesting. Maybe some find her boring. Maybe some don't like the WW stories they have read because they think those stories were bad.

[West Mantooth]

M
She's a heroine sent to 'man's world' with a weapon which forces people to speak the truth, and everybody at DC keeps running away from this point. Even Gail Simone, who decided that WW needed some sort of 'internal conflict' (and more pointless physical fisticuffs) by watering down the basic concept with crap ideas like Genocide. And she probably keeps wondering why that nonsense didn't work..


How did Genocide waterdown anything?

[galactica]

More likely it boils down to the fact that at DC, no 'chicks' are really in charge there. :biggrin:

It's basically an ongoing corporate boondoggle with a character which represents ideas that the company is too scared and sheepish to see published anymore (such as bondage and female suppression).The real problem always centers around the fact that today's writers and editors seem to think that Wonder Woman should be shaped to be 'relevant to today's more sophisticated audience', and then do a 180 run around whatever makes Wonder Woman special.

She's a heroine sent to 'man's world' with a weapon which forces people to speak the truth, and everybody at DC keeps running away from this point. Even Gail Simone, who decided that WW needed some sort of 'internal conflict' (and more pointless physical fisticuffs) by watering down the basic concept with crap ideas like Genocide. And she probably keeps wondering why that nonsense didn't work.

What would make Wonder Woman interesting? Portray her more like a feminist Namor, and then she'd probably make more sense as a character. Just give her a PERSONALITY, for right now, she's still cardboard.

It's not like Namor is moving a lot of titles. The guy is lucky to get a miniseries every two years.

[West Mantooth]

Wonder Woman has a lot of problems that go beyond "She's a chick." Frankly I think that's a cop out. It implies that there is absolutely nothing wrong wrong with the characters and everything is the fault of the readers, or rather the non-readers. I believe there are people who wouldn't read WW because "she's a chick" but I think there are more people who don't care. Maybe many people just don't find the characters interesting. Maybe some find her boring. Maybe some don't like the WW stories they have read because they think those stories were bad.

Thank you.

Most people name Marston, Perez, and Rucka as having the best runs. The gaps between those different runs are 40 years and over a decade. You can't have a popular character and have they major gap between memorable takes no matter if it's WW or Captain Marvel.

[WorstThingUS]

No.

Just "she's a chick". And it has little to do with how hard or easy she is to write,

No. She's character who comes with inherent conflicts that make it difficult to know what to do with her. Comics are about action, which is a nice way of saying "violence" and she's here to bring an end to violence. Shang Chi is a character who'd prefer never to fight but spends all his time kicking ass, because he'd been tricked by his own father and was paying off a debt he felt he owed. Wonder Woman has no such clear cut set up to resolve that conflict. Again, if you said "I've got a comic about a warrior ambassador of peace" the presence of a penis isn't going to make it any more interesting or easy to tell interesting story, but the absence of one does make it unlikely that anyone even wants to try and when they do you get the kind of crap Morrison wants to do that he'd never suggest for a guy.


Sonja is a classic hero archtype. Sonja's sales as an independent book are okay, but that's still an independent. But remember that years back Sonja was a Marvel book. Was she getting this huge success you think Wonder Woman would magically have if her philosophical point of view was less confusing? Probably not.

Under Marvel, Sonja was hardly a primary title the way she is at Dynamite, where they can't seem to stop publishing companion mini-series along with the primary series, so yeah, I do think a less confusing philosophical point of view would help her a lot.

[ScottyQuick]

There are some really great Wonder Woman stories out there, such as anything by George Perez, Greg Rucka, and Gail Simone, as well as "JLA: A League of One" by Christopher Moeller.

[Jim Thompson]

There are some really great Wonder Woman stories out there, such as anything by George Perez, Greg Rucka, and Gail Simone, as well as "JLA: A League of One" by Christopher Moeller.Oh, I very much agree -- she's, to my thinking, one of the better characters in literature. Having said that, I very much understand why she has trouble selling in a market that is geared toward young boys/men.

[ScottyQuick]

Oh, I very much agree -- she's, to my thinking, one of the better characters in literature. Having said that, I very much understand why she has trouble selling in a market that is geared toward young boys/men.

Heh. Oh, comics. Only you could take freaking WONDER WOMAN and have her sell to only thirty seven thousand people a month.

[Jim Thompson]

Heh. Oh, comics. Only you could take freaking WONDER WOMAN and have her sell to only thirty seven thousand people a month.37,000 in a population of just over 300,000,000. :tongue:

[RachelRules]

As much as I don't like to admit it, I do think that a major part of this does have to do with her being a woman. But not all of it . . .
There have been some fantastic Wonder Woman stories . . . stories that I would put on par with any other comic and equal to, if not in some cases better than, the best comic stories ever published.
Part of the problem has to do with inconsistency. Writers come in and want to tweak this and change that in order to make the character fit with their idea of what he or she is. Every comic ever produced has had that problem to some extent. The problem for the Wonder Woman comic is that there seems to be a high rate of attrition amongst the writers.
Wonder Woman also suffers from a double standard. There are plenty of stories that can be explored here but the writers don't want to go there. They've given her a serious boyfriend, finally, but now seem to have backed off before anything happens. Somehow it's okay for Bruce Wayne to sleep around (and even Clark and Lois evidently had premarital sex), but Diana has to remain chaste, just because she's a woman. I think it's a cop out to make her suddenly only interested in Nemesis as a mate and to lie to him about it this whole time. Hardly what someone who carries around the lasso of truth would be expected to do. There's also the story of the Amazons. I love it when she's on Themyscira and we get to meet new and different Amazons. It's been suggested that, mostly out of necessity, a good portion of the Amazons are lesbians. But, again, the writers don't seem to want to go there and tell the stories.
In the latest comics, she's lost her home and her family. Hate to say it, but this has already been done before (though at least this time she's not powerless and consigned to the Emma Peel jumpsuits).
What's the answer?
Not sure that there is one. Wonder Woman, no matter who writes or who illustrates, will always be number 3 for these reasons and, undoubtedly, others. However, I think there might be a great opportunity out there.
Why not a digest of sorts for female characters? Anchored by Wonder Woman (with perhaps Supergirl or Batwoman), a monthly or bi-monthly book could be created with regular appearances by the big and not-so-big characters (i.e. Zatanna, Vixen, Hawkgirl, Oracle, Black Canary, and some of the lesser-known characters) in their own individual stories. This would give Wonder Woman another book and also, with a multitude of characters that surely would interest most readers, expose more female characters to more readers.

[RyleKayner]

Gail did a great book focused on female characters - Birds of Prey. Everyone loved it. It was great. I even loved the original Chuck Dixon minis. Then it disappeared.

Grant Morrison treated WW with great respect in his JLA run as did Joe Kelly. People didn't seem to notice.

What people do notice is the Frank Miller portrayal of Wondy (ASBARTBW, DKR) where she was made out to be little more that a feminist crackpot. Or they focus on the original Wondy stuff where she did little but get herself tied up every issue.

Wondy has had several decades to develop as a character and yet she is still mercurial in peoples minds.

I think one of the best things she's ever done is snap Maxwell Lord's head. That was a defining moment. A line in the sand. I wish someone (RUKA!!!) had put their hand up then and there and said "I want to do a Wondy book and I want to make it bloody awesome"

Look at what he's done for Renee and what he aims to do for Batwoman (another character in desperate need of a personality). I bet you dollars for doughnuts, that in two years time Renee and Batwoman will be in the spotlight with guest appearances in a half dozen titles between them, but Wondy will still be at the same impasse.

No offense to Gail, who is awesome, but she isn't one of DC's boy's club. She's not high profile enough and so is going to get shut down if she starts making leaps editorial aren't happy about. I really think we need one of the holy trinity of DC writers (Grant Morrison, Geoff Johns or Dan Didio :rolleyes: ) to take over the title so that they can do what they like and plot a brave new course forward.

[ScottyQuick]

I really think we need one of the holy trinity of DC writers (Grant Morrison, Geoff Johns or Dan Didio :rolleyes: ) to take over the title so that they can do what they like and plot a brave new course forward.

In something that's probably a coincidence, they're three people who don't get Diana imo.

[Chiroptera]

I'd just like to say everything Ryle Kayner said is what I've long been thinking.
Unfortunately, editorial stopped Rucka from continuing his work with Wondy after the neck snap. He was pulled off the book so abruptly that he didn't get to run any farther with the story.
I firmly believe if he'd been allowed to write the whole thing out in full it would have been great, but since he was yanked away the whole thing floundered and turned into a huge train wreck.


Wonder Woman DEFINITELY needs someone to give her a boost. the more I think about it the more open I become to the idea of Morrison writing an elseworlds Wonder Woman tale, but I think we also need someone to deliver a in-continuity story that's just REALLY good and really elevates her in the eyes of the DCU both it's citizens ( in the DCU) and it's readers here in the real world.

Right now I hold out hope that Adam Hughes All-Star Wonder Woman will be the hit she needs to really give her a great leg up in the hero community.

[Free-Man]

Wonder Woman DEFINITELY needs someone to give her a boost. the more I think about it the more open I become to the idea of Morrison writing an elseworlds Wonder Woman tale, but I think we also need someone to deliver a in-continuity story that's just REALLY good and really elevates her in the eyes of the DCU both it's citizens ( in the DCU) and it's readers here in the real world.

Right now I hold out hope that Adam Hughes All-Star Wonder Woman will be the hit she needs to really give her a great leg up in the hero community.

Yet it's always surprising to see the number of Wonder Woman fans who will bite your head off for even suggesting such a thing. "WHAT?! She doesn't need any help!! Gail is doing just fine!"

I've thouroughly enjoyed most of Gail's run. But as Rucka showed us, Wonder Woman can sell FAR FAR FAR better than she is right now. Let's hope Morrison is allowed to do his project and maybe attract more readers.

[galactica]

Whatever boost the Wonder Woman ongoing title gets will have to come from the ongoing title. I still want to see WW mini-series and graphic novels from top writers and artists but I don't think those would help the regular title that much. The regular title needs to give people a reason to come take a look, like SCW did for GL.

[BYC]

I don't think there a major character in comics whose personality, views, beliefs, and just about everything else is universally split like the Wonder Woman character.

Every few months, we get a thread on this, and then immediately there's conflict with fans on what path she should take, how it's taken, and where it's going. Until somebody writes a Wonder Woman that a majority of fans can agree on, there's never going to be a true Wonder Woman.

Although I loved the Greek mythology part of Wonder Woman, I was shocked by Gail's comments that the Greek gods don't seem to sell well to the audience. That's unfortunate, because I think focusing that part is important to the character, and I liked how Perez wrote her.

[WorstThingUS]

Although I loved the Greek mythology part of Wonder Woman, I was shocked by Gail's comments that the Greek gods don't seem to sell well to the audience. That's unfortunate, because I think focusing that part is important to the character, and I liked how Perez wrote her.

But all the time!?! This is one of my problems with her. Imagine if Superman was "World of Krypton" all the time. It's her origin, I get it. But why does every other storyline have to be about her relationship with the gods. In fact, I think it's a "safe place writers go to so they don't have to deal with the problems caused by trying to write superhero stories about an feminist ambassador for peace from a nation of warriors. Just have her fighting centaurs in Hades and you don't have to deal with it.

[Free-Man]

But all the time!?! This is one of my problems with her. Imagine if Superman was "World of Krypton" all the time. It's her origin, I get it. But why does every other storyline have to be about her relationship with the gods. In fact, I think it's a "safe place writers go to so they don't have to deal with the problems caused by trying to write superhero stories about an feminist ambassador for peace from a nation of warriors. Just have her fighting centaurs in Hades and you don't have to deal with it.

But on the other hand, especially on the mass media front, the mythologcial aspect can be something of an advantage.

I mean, I think that many in Hollywood are starting to grow weary of superheroes, because a good deal of the superhero movies have flopped. So it would certainly be very hard to pitch a movie about a female superhero. Because for the most part, you'll have a hard time convincing execs that little boys will watch that.

But if you go and say "Yeah, I have an idea for a movie about a sexy Amazon who fights ancient monsters" you have something that certainly stands out from the rest of the superhero pack.

[jerrymcl89]

I've thouroughly enjoyed most of Gail's run. But as Rucka showed us, Wonder Woman can sell FAR FAR FAR better than she is right now. Let's hope Morrison is allowed to do his project and maybe attract more readers.

Other than the issues that tied into Infinite Crisis, I don't think Rucka's run sold any better than Gail's has.

[Free-Man]

Other than the issues that tied into Infinite Crisis, I don't think Rucka's run sold any better than Gail's has.

I believe it was selling around 45000 at one point.

[jerrymcl89]

Prior to #219 (the Max Lord issue), the run usually sold in the 27-30,000 range, which is probably why Gail claims the storylines about the Greek Gods have tended not to sell well. The issues after 219, during Infinite Crisis, were the ones in the 45,000 range.

[Vic Vega]

Does anybody know how well the Jiemenez, Messner-Loebs or Rucka runs sold? I take it for granted that the Perez run was sucessful.

Loebs pulled out all the fannish tricks for his run(A hotter more violent Artemis as replacement for Wondy and a trendy new costume for Diana) with desent critial acclaim.

Jimenez loved Wonder Woman the way Morrison loves Superman. But unfortunately, it seemd to make some fans nervous because then they just wanted a Xena clone and they didn't understand why they weren't getting one.

Rucka made the mistake of thinking that fans would sit thru 3 issues without violence and allow him to begin his run by establishing his characters and concept.

He was wrong.

There was just as much fan whining to get Rucka off Wonder Woman back then as there is to put him back on the books now. However, D.C only listened the first time.

It's not that there are no great Wondy stories out there. Jungle Sacrament and Gods of Arkaham and The Hiketita come immediately to mind.

Its that folks have a problem with the concepts.

If Wondy was just Red Sonja with super-strength and the ability to fly she'd be uncomplicated and comics fans would like her better.

After all unlike Superman and Batman, she's not here to save folks from crime, natural disasters or alien invasion(or any combination thereof).

She's here to transform society. It is like if Buddha had to occasionally beat people senseless in order to get his point accross.

Its the Wonder Woman as indictment of modern society that causes problems.

When the societal evil that Wondy was sent here to quash was the Nazis, we could all be down with that.

Now that she's a pansexual, womanist, anti-pollution, vegan, anti-capitalist(judging by the society she came from) reformer who is in favor of do it yourself executions if necessary :biggrin: , she is gonna annoy part of the potential fanbase no matter what.

She comes off as less a savior than a scold.

"Truth, Justice and the American way" is a LOT simpler to get your head around.

[Buried Alien]

Although I loved the Greek mythology part of Wonder Woman, I was shocked by Gail's comments that the Greek gods don't seem to sell well to the audience. That's unfortunate, because I think focusing that part is important to the character, and I liked how Perez wrote her.

That's just it right there, and Gail addressed this issue at CCI by remarking that the upcoming year will see more of Wonder Woman as a *superhero*, which is news that I, for one, welcome.

I've long liked the Pre-COIE Wonder Woman more than the rebooted Post-COIE version because the Pre-COIE Wonder Woman was depicted more often as a superhero and therefore, truly a peer and colleague to Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, etc.

The Greek mythology aspect of Wonder Woman is essential to her character, and I certainly don't mind a periodic exploration of this aspect of her character. From Perez's reboot onward, however, the Greek mythlogy aspect has almost consumed the character, making her superhero status seemingly tenuous. Somehow, she doesn't seem to belong to the same world as Superman, Batman, Flash, GL, etc., not because she's a woman (that's never been an issue, at least not as far as I'm concerned) because they're mortal superheroes and she's...a deity. It's hard to think of her as a peer to these heroes when really, she exists at a higher level than they do.

I would definitely like to see a new emphasis given to Wonder Woman as a superhero, which is how I liked her best and how I haven't really seen her consistently since the 1980s.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[West Mantooth]

I don't think there a major character in comics whose personality, views, beliefs, and just about everything else is universally split like the Wonder Woman character.

Every few months, we get a thread on this, and then immediately there's conflict with fans on what path she should take, how it's taken, and where it's going. Until somebody writes a Wonder Woman that a majority of fans can agree on, there's never going to be a true Wonder Woman.

Although I loved the Greek mythology part of Wonder Woman, I was shocked by Gail's comments that the Greek gods don't seem to sell well to the audience. That's unfortunate, because I think focusing that part is important to the character, and I liked how Perez wrote her.

Quote that post for the motherf----ing truth. I mean, you have a good writer in Gail and plans for a consistent flow that she's been lacking. DC is behind her to stay on the book. "Don't worry, be happy."

Stop being so insecure. As if unless the comic is selling X amount, no one respects Wonder Woman. Supes is still king of heroes despite getting waxed by 50,000 copies by Bats.


Does anybody know how well the Jiemenez, Messner-Loebs or Rucka runs sold? I take it for granted that the Perez run was sucessful.

Loebs pulled out all the fannish tricks for his run(A hotter more violent Artemis as replacement for Wondy and a trendy new costume for Diana) with desent critial acclaim.

Jimenez loved Wonder Woman the way Morrison loves Superman. But unfortunately, it seemd to make some fans nervous because then they just wanted a Xena clone and they didn't understand why they weren't getting one.

Rucka made the mistake of thinking that fans would sit thru 3 issues without violence and allow him to begin his run by establishing his characters and concept.

He was wrong.

There was just as much fan whining to get Rucka off Wonder Woman back then as there is to put him back on the books now. However, D.C only listened the first time.

It's not that there are no great Wondy stories out there. Jungle Sacrament and Gods of Arkaham and The Hiketita come immediately to mind.

Its that folks have a problem with the concepts.

If Wondy was just Red Sonja with super-strength and the ability to fly she'd be uncomplicated and comics fans would like her better.

After all unlike Superman and Batman, she's not here to save folks from crime, natural disasters or alien invasion(or any combination thereof).

She's here to transform society. It is like if Buddha had to occasionally beat people senseless in order to get his point accross.

Its the Wonder Woman as indictment of modern society that causes problems.

When the societal evil that Wondy was sent here to quash was the Nazis, we could all be down with that.

Now that she's a pansexual, womanist, anti-pollution, vegan, anti-capitalist(judging by the society she came from) reformer who is in favor of do it yourself executions if necessary :biggrin: , she is gonna annoy part of the potential fanbase no matter what.

She comes off as less a savior than a scold.

"Truth, Justice and the American way" is a LOT simpler to get your head around.

I hate that whole, she's too complex a character for this audience argument. I'm pretty sure her last three arcs involved her punching a supevillain/creature in the face.