The Problem with modern DC in one paragraph.

[Scavenger]

From the DC Nation pannel (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22463)

Will Doiby Dickles appear in "Blackest Night?" "Who?" [Senior Story Editor Ian ] Sattler asked. No one on the panel appeared to know about the character, but a fan explained that he was the Golden Age Green Lantern's sidekick.

[Mister Blisterfists]

Hell, I can name what's wrong with DC in one sentence:

Hal Jordan, Green Lantern.

[Crowforge]

*Gasp* they don't remember completely forgettable characters that may not even be in continuity anymore!

A side note of equal non-importance, remember when pace salsa commercials always ended with the lynching of the guy using new york salsa?

[Reptisaurus!]

*Gasp* they don't remember completely forgettable characters that may not even be in continuity anymore!


Doiby is in continuity. In general, the Golden Age material is considered Earth-new canon, unless it's specifically contradicted, and he's been referred to off-and-on since. (I believe he showed up in Peter David's Young Justice.)

Not that I think that it matters in the slightest that DC editors don't know who he is. Of the characteristics and attributes that are useful or needed for performing their job, identifying Golden Age Green Lantern characters is tied for eight millionth.

[Verminous]

Hell, I can name what's wrong with DC in one sentence:

Hal Jordan, Green Lantern.

That's a sentence?

[spidervenom]

Dc comics is fine.

[Zero Hunter]

Hell, I can name what's wrong with DC in one sentence:

Hal Jordan, Green Lantern.

Ok explain.

[Hullababy]

Hell, I can name what's wrong with DC in one sentence:

Hal Jordan, Green Lantern.

Good joke.

If you're being serious, then its sad.

[Crowforge]

Ok explain.
Maybe he means that whole murderous rampage thing?

[InSovietRussia]

Maybe he means that whole murderous rampage thing?

I'd say it was less the rampage than the resolution; 'It wasn't me guys... a wizard did it!' Well, actually a magical yellow fear demon from the dawn of time, but you get the gist. Hal has all the depth of a kiddie wading pool. With all the interesting stories they could be telling about the other three human lanterns, or the many alien worlds and species encountered by the GL Corps, we get this guy as the star? Meh.

[Mister Blisterfists]

Good joke.

If you're being serious, then its sad.

no, what's sad is that you're proud to be a fanboy.

and one of Green Lantern to boot.

sorry, but I can dispense the insults too.


pretty much summed it up, for me InSovietRussia. Good job! :biggrin:

[Zero Hunter]

I'd say it was less the rampage than the resolution; 'It wasn't me guys... a wizard did it!' Well, actually a magical yellow fear demon from the dawn of time, but you get the gist. Hal has all the depth of a kiddie wading pool. With all the interesting stories they could be telling about the other three human lanterns, or the many alien worlds and species encountered by the GL Corps, we get this guy as the star? Meh.

Yeah because we have not been seeing anything out of Kyle and Guy lately or any alien worlds and species......Oh wait we have in a book called Green Lantern Corps. Guess maybe you didn't see that book since it has only been going for about 3 or so years now. :rolleyes:

[Mister Blisterfists]

Yeah, being sidelined into a spinoff book is really getting your due :rolleyes:

There's a reason The Murderer has been replaced three times. And it ain't because he's a compelling character.

[carabas]

From the DC Nation pannel (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22463)

Will Doiby Dickles appear in "Blackest Night?" "Who?" [Senior Story Editor Ian ] Sattler asked. No one on the panel appeared to know about the character, but a fan explained that he was the Golden Age Green Lantern's sidekick.
So, do you mean DC's problm is that their guys can't remember 60 years out of date stories, or that they have fans who can?

The Murderer...Fictional characters can't murder. Otherwise a whole bunch of editors and writers'd be pretty damn dead by now.
At some point you need to let go of these truely bad stories from decades ago, and move on.

[Mister Blisterfists]

I won't call him by name if I can help it. He IS a sociopath in his world, and he did kill multiple people. That makes him a Murderer.

by your logic, Fictional characters can't be test pilots either.

and I'll move on when there's a Green Lantern WORTHY of the name back in the regular title. If it weren't for people clinging to decade old stories, you wouldn't even HAVE the sociopath back, so don't tell me to do something the rest of the fandom isn't willing to do, or accept themselves.

[Jarath]

I won't call him by name if I can help it. He IS a sociopath in his world, and he did kill multiple people. That makes him a Murderer.

by your logic, Fictional characters can't be test pilots either.

and I'll move on when there's a Green Lantern WORTHY of the name back in the regular title. If it weren't for people clinging to decade old stories, you wouldn't even HAVE the sociopath back, so don't tell me to do something the rest of the fandom isn't willing to do, or accept themselves.

I'm so glad I don't have such a narrow minded view to comics. Are you Superboy Prime in disguise? But I'm guessing you didn't like that ending either?

If you had a real reason for disliking Hal Jordan as Green Lantern then people might give you the time of day but you seem to harbour an irrational hatred for the character.

Also Green Lantern Corps is a great title in it's own right, it is the equal of the main GL book and at times even out shines it. So how about you get off your high horse and give it a shot.

[the4thpip]

Ian Satller deserves a spanking.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll102/the4thpip/doibyspanked.jpg

[carabas]

by your logic, Fictional characters can't be test pilots either..
Well, no, obviously fictional characters can't be test pilots, you silly.
"I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV."

[Mobey Wee]

Hell, I can name what's wrong with DC in one sentence:

Hal Jordan, Green Lantern.

I can only speak for myself, but Hal Jordan and Barry Allen are probably the 2 biggest reasons I know anything about the DCU. GL and the Corps are the only ongoing DC titles I'm keeping up with at the moment. I'm sure there are others I would like, but something has always pushed me away from most DC ongoing titles, and that has never applied to Hal Jordan. I like all of the green lanterns, but Hal is definitely the most interesting in my book. I'd like to think I won't get attacked for poking my head through and giving my thoughts as an outsider, but everyone seems pretty mad, so that's not likely to happen...

[Lemurion]

I think they should have known who Doiby was - at least one of them should.

As for Hal Jordan - he's not a perfect character, but right now he seems to be generating more interest than any of the other contenders for the role. My personal preference would be for an Alan Scott book - and I'd be interested in a John Stewart one.

Otherwise Hal works well enough for me - He's not a bad Kim Kinnison knock-off. :)

[Free-Man]

Hal Jordan certainly isn't the problem with DC. It's the editorials desire to revive the Silver Age status quo.

I'm not sure why Hal Jordan was brought back in the first place, but heres the thing. After Rebirth, sales for his book fell. They're very good right now, and it is certainly because of the War of Light and Blackest Night events.

So what happens when the hype wears off after Barry's return and he starts putting in the same middling numbers as Wally at the end of his series?

IT's not just that, but Didio is a master of pissing off fans. He's made it pretty clear that prefers the Silver Age Supergirl to the Linda Danvers version, but personal fanboy preferences should not influence business policies.

Or look at Cassie Cain, who's solo book was axed by Didio. After her book was ended (most likely to clear the way for Batwoman) the character was subjected to a heinous character assasination. That pissed off enough fans that all of it was retconned.

You'd think that at this point, he'd stop trying his hardest to alienate people who are too young to remember the Silver Age.

[galactica]

I don't think Silver Age revival is DC's problem. Speaking only for myself, I got into GL after Rebirth, I like the Supergirl series under Gates and Igle, I don't have any strong feeling toward either Wally or Barry. I don't think DC is so much going back to the Silver Age anymore than Marvel is stuck in the Silver Age. I think DC is trying to polish many of their characters and I think it's for the best, for the most part.

Green Lantern and Flash sales will be fine id the story and the art is good, just like most other characters. Every body has their preferences, some like Kyle, some like Hal, some like Wally, some Barry, some like Kara, others like Linda. At the end of the day I think we all want good stories, if we can get that with our preferred characters, great! I think it's important to remember that characters like Hal and Barry and Kara have just as many fans as Kyle, Wally and Linda, probably more.

[Mat001]

In the case of Hal murdering people, people can be forgiven and make up for their crimes. So regardless of doing on their own or being influence by a fear creature, people can still make up for their crimes. That's what redemption entails. Hal was only replaced with John and Guy was a desire to do things with them that they couldn't with Hal. Kyle was in the same boat, but even Kyle's sales fell as they did with John and Guy. Sales after "Rebirth" fell because of the delays on the art end of things. Once they had a consistent artist, were back on schedule and once the build up for "Sinestro Corps War" got started, sales rose. If there are delays, sales will fall.

[thehod]

personal fanboy preferences should not influence business policies.

oh, the irony is almost tangible.

[Free-Man]

Green Lantern and Flash sales will be fine id the story and the art is good, just like most other characters. Every body has their preferences, some like Kyle, some like Hal, some like Wally, some Barry, some like Kara, others like Linda. At the end of the day I think we all want good stories, if we can get that with our preferred characters, great! I think it's important to remember that characters like Hal and Barry and Kara have just as many fans as Kyle, Wally and Linda, probably more.

No, that isn't true. Good series don't always sell. Look at the level of acclaim that Manhunter got.

And it's not that DC wants to polish off Silver Age characters, it's that they feel the need to SH*T all over their successors. Connor Hawke was written out of Green Arrow and no longer has his marksman abilities. Wally West is going to be taken out of the iconic Flash costume. And then Linda Danvers and Cass Cain were both regulated to villains. Doing everything you can to destroy more modern characters is certainly not a good way to boost sales.

And how exactly is Marvel stuck in the Silver Age? Was Dark Reign a Silver Age story I missed?

[jv2k]

From the DC Nation pannel (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22463)

Will Doiby Dickles appear in "Blackest Night?" "Who?" [Senior Story Editor Ian ] Sattler asked. No one on the panel appeared to know about the character, but a fan explained that he was the Golden Age Green Lantern's sidekick.

Doiby Dickles was one of the more vocal members of Old Justice who played a big role in one of the Young Justice's biggest events. He then made several other appearances in the series. I agree with this statement. The problem with DC is that they forgot Young Justice!


Also DC's editorial has been pretty crappy lately. Even ignoring the big stuff like countdown, we get things like Alan scott having to recharge and using a battery in the solomon grundy mini despite the fact that he hasn't needed it for over a decade now!

[galactica]

No, that isn't true. Good series don't always sell. Look at the level of acclaim that Manhunter got.

And it's not that DC wants to polish off Silver Age characters, it's that they feel the need to SH*T all over their successors. Connor Hawke was written out of Green Arrow and no longer has his marksman abilities. Wally West is going to be taken out of the iconic Flash costume. And then Linda Danvers and Cass Cain were both regulated to villains. Doing everything you can to destroy more modern characters is certainly not a good way to boost sales.

And how exactly is Marvel stuck in the Silver Age? Was Dark Reign a Silver Age story I missed?

Sh*t over characters like Hal Jordan becoming a mass murderer to make way for Kyle? Say what you will about the current state of Kyle and Wally but they are still around and will still be heroes.

And I think Cassandra and Connor are victims of bad writing. I think a good writer or even a so-so writer would easily find a way to make Connor and Cassandra integral parts of the GA universe and the Batman universe.


If you are saying bringing back characters and concepts that were created in the SA mean DC is bringing back the SA then Marvel is stuck in the SA because almost all their characters were created in the SA. I don't think Marvel is stuck in the SA, I was just making making a point.

[carabas]

And I think Cassandra and Connor are victims of bad writing. I think a good writer or even a so-so writer would easily find a way to make Connor and Cassandra integral parts of the GA universe and the Batman universe.Could and will are entirely different things; there's a new Batgirl boo out some time soon, and although DC is incredibly tight-lipped about it, we do know Cass won't be in it.

[galactica]

Could and will are entirely different things; there's a new Batgirl boo out some time soon, and although DC is incredibly tight-lipped about it, we do know Cass won't be in it.

That's true but is that further evidence of DC going back to the Silver Age? We know it's not Cass but we also know it's not Barbara.

PS I know you weren't talking about that.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Hell, I can name what's wrong with DC in one sentence:

Hal Jordan, Green Lantern.

I was going to reply to this, but then I remembered you actually thought the music in Watchmen fit the movie.

[Munkiman]

Yeah, being sidelined into a spinoff book is really getting your due :rolleyes:

There's a reason The Murderer has been replaced three times. And it ain't because he's a compelling character.
You call it a spinoff book like that's a bad thing. GL Corps gets good sales. Not as high as the main Green Lantern book, but I for one think it's pretty great that Kyle, Guy and the Corps get their own book. I mean, it's either sidelined into a spinoff book, or sidelined into the margins of the main book. You like the characters, obviously, so isn't it better that they have their own monthly?

He's not The Murderer anymore. He was being influenced by bad guys, and I think it was nice that it was retconned that way, because you get a great new character (Kyle) without having to sacrifice the dignity of the old character who had a lot of history as a good guy.

Have you considered that it might have been the fault of past writers and editors that he hasn't been used to his full potential, and not the character's own?

I won't call him by name if I can help it. He IS a sociopath in his world, and he did kill multiple people. That makes him a Murderer.

by your logic, Fictional characters can't be test pilots either.

and I'll move on when there's a Green Lantern WORTHY of the name back in the regular title. If it weren't for people clinging to decade old stories, you wouldn't even HAVE the sociopath back, so don't tell me to do something the rest of the fandom isn't willing to do, or accept themselves.
I don't think Hal was created with his being a sociopath in mind. So if you're saying he retroactively became a sociopath, then that means you're admitting that changes can be added to a character. Well, they just added another change, and he's not a sociopath anymore. That's how it goes.

[joao_miranda]

No, that isn't true. Good series don't always sell. Look at the level of acclaim that Manhunter got.

Green Lantern and Flash are not Manhunter. If the stories are good, the fans will buy.

And obviously the sales of the ongoing were lower then the sales of the sales of the mini that promissed bring back a fan favorite character killed ten years before.

And it's not that DC wants to polish off Silver Age characters, it's that they feel the need to SH*T all over their successors. Connor Hawke was written out of Green Arrow and no longer has his marksman abilities. Wally West is going to be taken out of the iconic Flash costume. And then Linda Danvers and Cass Cain were both regulated to villains. Doing everything you can to destroy more modern characters is certainly not a good way to boost sales.

And you think is better for Wally West if fans can't even know who's him or who's Barry? I would even prefer if they gave him a new name, so that he could follow on his own, like Nightwing.

And how exactly is Marvel stuck in the Silver Age? Was Dark Reign a Silver Age story I missed?

Is basically President Luthor in the Marvel U. Not Silver Age, but not inovative.

[Name Already Taken]

Overly nitpicky comic fans are what is wrong with the modern DCU.

[Jorriss]

Overly nitpicky comic fans are what is wrong with the modern DCU.
I can completely agree with this. Too many are stuck in their way about, what I consider, trivialities, such as the style of a utility belt.

[Pksoze]

From the DC Nation pannel (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22463)

Will Doiby Dickles appear in "Blackest Night?" "Who?" [Senior Story Editor Ian ] Sattler asked. No one on the panel appeared to know about the character, but a fan explained that he was the Golden Age Green Lantern's sidekick.


The Horror!
:eek:

[Lemurion]

After comparing what happened to Kyle after Hal came back with what happened to Hal so that Kyle could be introduced I have minimal sympathy for Kyle fans complaining about how shabbily he has been treated.

[DeTroyes]

Overly nitpicky comic fans are what is wrong with the modern DCU.

This.

Sometimes I yearn for the days of pre-internet comics fandom...

[Mister Blisterfists]

You call it a spinoff book like that's a bad thing. GL Corps gets good sales. Not as high as the main Green Lantern book, but I for one think it's pretty great that Kyle, Guy and the Corps get their own book. I mean, it's either sidelined into a spinoff book, or sidelined into the margins of the main book. You like the characters, obviously, so isn't it better that they have their own monthly?

No. Because they have to share the spotlight, when Kyle used to be solo.

He's not The Murderer anymore. He was being influenced by bad guys, and I think it was nice that it was retconned that way, because you get a great new character (Kyle) without having to sacrifice the dignity of the old character who had a lot of history as a good guy.

He's still the murderer. The influence of the fear entity only went so far. He's still responsible for his actions.

Have you considered that it might have been the fault of past writers and editors that he hasn't been used to his full potential, and not the character's own?

Nope. It's the character.


I don't think Hal was created with his being a sociopath in mind. So if you're saying he retroactively became a sociopath, then that means you're admitting that changes can be added to a character. Well, they just added another change, and he's not a sociopath anymore. That's how it goes.

Actually, he's STILL a sociopath. Once a murderer, always a murderer.

and that's how THAT goes.

[Mister Blisterfists]

After comparing what happened to Kyle after Hal came back with what happened to Hal so that Kyle could be introduced I have minimal sympathy for Kyle fans complaining about how shabbily he has been treated.

hey, The Murderer Jordan deserved every bit of it. If he had been a stronger character, he would've resisted, like Kyle did.

[Sizzle]

I can do it in two words: Dan Didio.

While I don't care for Hal Boredom, he's not the reason for any problems in the DCU. GL is doing well, granted, once Johns leaves, it will slide big time.

[Munkiman]

hey, The Murderer Jordan deserved every bit of it. If he had been a stronger character, he would've resisted, like Kyle did.
I've got Green Lantern #24 right out in front of me here, and it just so happens that Kyle didn't break free of Parallax until Parallax had absorbed Hal. They were only able to free themselves by working together.

I also feel it necessary to mention that Hal, on the other hand, was able to regain control of himself long enough to reignite the sun, but I never read Final Night, so there could be some extenuating circumstances to that. But even if I'm wrong about that, my other point still stands.

No. Because they have to share the spotlight, when Kyle used to be solo.
But has Guy Gardner ever had his own series?

Seriously, I want to know, because that'd be pretty cool.

Kyle got a decade as GL, the Ion miniseries, and hopefully he'll get his own spotlight in the future, but for now, personally I like how he is in Corps. I like the dynamic with Guy. Still, there's always the possibility. It's better than what John has. :/

He's still the murderer. The influence of the fear entity only went so far. He's still responsible for his actions.
Yes, but he's not completely responsible for his actions. The point is that he wouldn't have done it on his own. Sure, it proves he has some darkness inside him, but so do a lot of people. What's important is that, normally, he ignores the darkness and does good stuff.

Nope. It's the character.
Well, that's your opinion. You can't call it a fact unless there's evidence, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

Actually, he's STILL a sociopath. Once a murderer, always a murderer.
sociopath, noun. "A person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience."

He clearly isn't that. There's a difference between a sociopath and a murderer: one refers to how you act in the present, the other refers to something you've done in the past. Pick up the current GL book and tell me that, in the present, Hal lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

Look, I don't deny that Hal has blood on his hands - I do think that editorial decision wasn't a very good one, but I can't deny that it happened. I am glad that it isn't his fault anymore. The loss of Coast City and all that caused him a lot of pain, but the fear-entity thing proves that under ordinary circumstances he wouldn't have given in to those feelings. Which is why he isn't a sociopath, and was never really a sociopath.

[Aghast]

I also feel it necessary to mention that Hal, on the other hand, was able to regain control of himself long enough to reignite the sun, but I never read Final Night, so there could be some extenuating circumstances to that. But even if I'm wrong about that, my other point still stands.

No, he really did die a hero in a selfless act. Of course then he went on to be the Spectre (of redemption). So Hal Jordan, the man, regardless of what he did while under the thrall of Parallax, always felt the massive guilt for what he did and sought to atone. That's more than most people do.

But has Guy Gardner ever had his own series?

Seriously, I want to know, because that'd be pretty cool.

Yes actually. Both mini-series as GL and an ongoing as Guy Gardner.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/Guy%20Gardner%203.jpg

Well, that's your opinion. You can't call it a fact unless there's evidence, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

I would agree with you here Munki. As the aforementioned Spectre series made clear, the character of Hal Jordan has always remained good. In fact, all the evidence points to the fact of Hal as a good man influenced by something outside of himself rather than a bad man who was released from constraints to do evil.

sociopath, noun. "A person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience."

He clearly isn't that. There's a difference between a sociopath and a murderer: one refers to how you act in the present, the other refers to something you've done in the past. Pick up the current GL book and tell me that, in the present, Hal lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

And again, I agree with Munki here. In no way is Hal a sociopath. Clearly as mentioned above Hal both during Final Night and the Spectre series felt absolutely responsible for the things he'd done. He clearly has a conscience that weighs heavily upon him.

Click to see Hal Jordan feeling guilty.

http://www.comics101.com/comics101//images/view.php?src=../news/Comics%20101/47/penance.jpg&w=

Clearly not a sociopath.

[Psavell2]

hey, The Murderer Jordan deserved every bit of it. If he had been a stronger character, he would've resisted, like Kyle did.

You do realize he's not a real person right? He has no will of his own. He does whatever his writers have him do, and the same goes for all these characters including Kyle. They could have just as easily had Kyle murder a few people before regaining control, but they had learned from their previous mistake. He was only strong enough to resist because that's the way it was written.

[Raker616]

You have got to love the Hal haters, there is nothing more entertaining than seeing someone have a mental breakdown because of a fictional character.

[carabas]

I also feel it necessary to mention that Hal, on the other hand, was able to regain control of himself long enough to reignite the sun, but I never read Final Night, so there could be some extenuating circumstances to that.There were indeed extenuating circumstances: at that time the yellow fear demon didn't exist yet and it was just plain Hal Jordan gone mental.

You have got to love the Hal haters, there is nothing more entertaining than seeing someone have a mental breakdown because of a fictional character.About as entertaining as that loony Hal Jordan emerald restoration squad or whatever they were called, ranting for years on end about what a crap character Kyke Rayner is and generally making asses ofthemselves.

[Crowforge]

I can't believe more people don't hate Guy.

[Freakzeek]

I can't believe more people don't hate Guy.

Guy Gardner is probably the most liked GL, in an ironic sort of way because he's a very polarzing character, He's a dick but he's a loveabe dick

[Thok]

Guy Gardner is probably the most liked GL, in an ironic sort of way because he's a very polarzing character, He's a dick but he's a loveabe dick

It helps that Guy probably has the strongest personality of the five Earth GL's (arguably he has more personality than the other four combined, although that statement may be a bit demeaning to Alan Scott.)

(I sort of wish there was a tendency towards irrational Guy versus Alan debate. It would be much more interesting that the irrational Kyle versus Hal debate.)

[Seven_Ride]

Guy Gardner is probably the most liked GL
For comedy relief. In terms of popularity or marketability, it'd probably go Hal, then John, then Kyle. For now, anyway.

[Seven_Ride]

The problem with modern DC is that they move from status quo to status quo, focusing on events, replacements and deaths. I guess a lot of fans get off on that stuff. The illusion of change.

I'd rather just read a good Flash story than yet another replacement, yet another "things will never be the same!" Yes, they will be the same, possibly with a new face under the old mask. Big deal. Whoever is the Flash is gonna wear red. They're gonna fight Captain Cold. They're gonna join the JLA. It IS the same.

[Raker616]

About as entertaining as that loony Hal Jordan emerald restoration squad or whatever they were called, ranting for years on end about what a crap character Kyke Rayner is and generally making asses ofthemselves.

Don't confuse HEAT with the looney tunes, one was about returning their beloved hero to his rightfull place in the DCU the other was as crazy as whoever this nut job is spouting off nonsense in this thread.

[Darrell D.]

You have got to love the Hal haters, there is nothing more entertaining than seeing someone have a mental breakdown because of a fictional character.

Oh, the irony. It is just so delicious.

[Hullababy]

Don't confuse HEAT with the looney tunes, one was about returning their beloved hero to his rightfull place in the DCU the other was as crazy as whoever this nut job is spouting off nonsense in this thread.

Heh. Totally agreed except looney tunes probably made more sense than this guy.

[RyleKayner]

That's a sentence?

Is that a question?

Actually one of my biggest gripes with DC is not the slavish catering to the Hal/Barry fanboys, but rather the lack of foresight to alienate some of their greatest talent.

I never used to read Marvel, but now I do. Wanna know why? Some of the most quintessential DC writers are given free reign there after being shunned from DC.

A brief list:
Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning
Mark Waid
Peter David
Mark Millar
Garth Ennis
Chuck Dixon (doesn't work at Marvel, but was booted from DC)
Keith Giffen (who does some below-the-radar stuff for DC, but writes massive, important stories for Marvel)

Also seems a shame that Warren Ellis, Barry Kitson and Dale Eaglesham no longer have a home in DC, but are well treated at Marvel.

There. That was a paragraph (and then some).

[TeamED209]

For comedy relief. In terms of popularity or marketability, it'd probably go Hal, then John, then Kyle. For now, anyway.

I highly doubt john is rated over kyle....i'd say kyle and hal are probably quite evenly liked

[Hullababy]

I highly doubt john is rated over kyle....i'd say kyle and hal are probably quite evenly liked

A non comic reader has no idea who Kyle Rayner is. John is more popular than him thanks to the JLU.

[discodicky]

A non comic reader has no idea who Kyle Rayner is. John is more popular than him thanks to the JLU.

Still I can't think of anything memorable about John except Mosaic. He has been recently characterised as the JLA's pet GL and that dramatically diminishes the character. I'm looking forward to the Post-BL Green Lantern Universe so that the characters can be explored without tying in to some over-arching story.

Also, with John being characterised as the former military man as of late (although I prefer the emphasis on him as an architect), wouldn't it make sense to get him to join 'The Corpse' post-BL. For those who don't know The Corpse is a Black Ops unit of the Corps that appeared in GLC #7-#9.

[dumbstruck]

You have got to love the Hal haters, there is nothing more entertaining than seeing someone have a mental breakdown because of a fictional character.


As opposed to the Hal lovers who have a mental breakdown anytime someone says anything bad about him? It's a two way street, my friend.

[Jim Thompson]

A non comic reader has no idea who Kyle Rayner is. John is more popular than him thanks to the JLU.There's certainly some truth to this. I think the animated Justice League version of the character may well be the best known, and for good reason, as he was a very interesting take on that character.

All of them offer strengths, though. I never have understood this urge to only want to concentrate on one of them. They are part of an interstellar police force, for Pete's sake.

[Spiffy]

Doiby Dickles was one of the more vocal members of Old Justice who played a big role in one of the Young Justice's biggest events. He then made several other appearances in the series. I agree with this statement. The problem with DC is that they forgot Young Justice!


Also DC's editorial has been pretty crappy lately. Even ignoring the big stuff like countdown, we get things like Alan scott having to recharge and using a battery in the solomon grundy mini despite the fact that he hasn't needed it for over a decade now!
Marvel ain't any better. All kinds of dumbass continuity problems with them. And with them its not just continuity problems, its sometimes them just being sloppy. For example, in Ultimate Fantastic Four Requiem, there was an obituary for Susan and Johnny Storm's father, which called him "Dr. Franklin Richards". And that got by the artist (who had to have drawn that page), the writer (who had to have seen it before it went to press and maybe even made the error in the first place, which the artist maybe just duplicated from the script), AND the Editorial staff (who apparently don't think Editing means "checking for errors" anymore).

[Thok]

Keith Giffen (who does some below-the-radar stuff for DC, but writes massive, important stories for Marvel)

Giffen seems to be more interested in doing below the radar stuff right now in both universes: Annihilation was a textbook example of below the radar that happened to also be successful; War in Hell was an attempt by Giffen to do a similar thing in DC, that didn't work as well. I mean, he's going to be writing two DC books (Doom Patrol and Magog) and he's also indicated that he's more interested in creating new characters for DC than working with the old standbys.

Plus if you read various interviews by Giffen (including the column he puts on this site periodically) you'll see he's quite happy with Didio.

(The other people in you list are valid examples, and DC does have a problem with keeping established talent, but there's no reason to add bad examples to your list.)

[Munkiman]

As opposed to the Hal lovers who have a mental breakdown anytime someone says anything bad about him? It's a two way street, my friend.
I don't like either of those sorts of people. Let's all just chill, yeah?

I don't think Mister Blisterfists is having a mental breakdown. He's discussing his dislikes about the direction Green Lantern has taken since Johns took over. And I'm having fun giving my counter-argument.

Let's all just be friends plz kthx.

A paragraph? More like four words: overaged fanboy circle jerk. That's 'modern' DC's problem in a nutshell, based on most of their current editorial and writing staff.
If you're referring to the tendency to focus on old characters, you have to admit that the characters with the most history are often more popular and sell better.

[Aghast]

If you're referring to the tendency to focus on old characters, you have to admit that the characters with the most history are often more popular and sell better.

That's because they are a known quantity.

But then again, the Golden Age Green Lantern has more history than any other Green Lantern but I bet his book wouldn't sell as much as the current GLs.

[dumbstruck]

My biggeset problem with DC is Didio and company's business model of going from event to event to event to event. Everything has to be an event. I miss the days when you got one big crossover every 1-2 years, and everything in between wasn't dependent on anything except itself. We got lots of good character stories mixed in with lots of good superhero stories.

[Munkiman]

The Golden Age GL is older, but he doesn't have more history. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman have been able to hold at least one book non-stop since their creation, so they have more history. Alan Scott was replaced by a dog, then went on to only appear in parallel-earth stories, and after COIE he only appeared with the rest of the JSA.

Isn't Marvel kind of doing that, too? Civil War, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign...

[Aghast]

My biggeset problem with DC is Didio and company's business model of going from event to event to event to event. Everything has to be an event. I miss the days when you got one big crossover every 1-2 years, and everything in between wasn't dependent on anything except itself. We got lots of good character stories mixed in with lots of good superhero stories.

For me the big event every year was the JLA/JSA crossover.

I am old...:frown:

[Jim Thompson]

For me the big event every year was the JLA/JSA crossover.And what a great time that was! :biggrin:

[Aghast]

The Golden Age GL is older, but he doesn't have more history. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman have been able to hold at least one book non-stop since their creation, so they have more history. Alan Scott was replaced by a dog, then went on to only appear in parallel-earth stories, and after COIE he only appeared with the rest of the JSA.

Ah contraire my friend.

While it is true that Alan Scott hasn't had a book devoted to himself non-stop sine his creation, this is also true of Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, the corps itself, or any other Green Lantern singly or in a group.

Still Alan Scott has 70 years of history behind him.

There are his solo stories as Green Lantern. Then there is his time as a founding member of the JSA. The revelation of the Starheart and his connection to the corps. There is his incarnation as Sentinel. His feature in GL Quarterly. His adventures with the JSA in all of its series. His guest shots in Hal Jordan's book. Doiby Dickles. His appearances in JLA/JSA crossovers. His marriages to Rose and Thorn and Harlequin (Golden Age) and his kids Jade and Obsidian. His role in Kingdom Come.

Even though Alan Scott hasn't been published non-stop for 70 years he still has craploads of history more than the later lanterns.

[Mat001]

My biggeset problem with DC is Didio and company's business model of going from event to event to event to event. Everything has to be an event. I miss the days when you got one big crossover every 1-2 years, and everything in between wasn't dependent on anything except itself. We got lots of good character stories mixed in with lots of good superhero stories.

It's the same way over at Marvel. Fact is that events sale. Hence both companies do them.

[Jim Thompson]

It's the same way over at Marvel. Fact is that events sale. Hence both companies do them.Agreed. I guess DC's saving grace, for me, has been I have enjoyed their events much more than I have enjoyed Marvel's over the past few years.

I also tend to think DC does a better job of ensuring a reader doesn't have to collect a million books in order to get the main thrust of an event story. Marvel claimed Civil War could be read without having to pick up another book, for example, but I didn't find that to be true.

[dumbstruck]

It's the same way over at Marvel. Fact is that events sale. Hence both companies do them.


I suppose it was shrewd marketing on their parts. They conditioned us with previous events with their "The DCU will never be the same after this" and "consequences that will last years throughtout the DCU" comments, that we blindly buy everything they say is important.

[dumbstruck]

Agreed. I guess DC's saving grace, for me, has been I have enjoyed their events much more than I have enjoyed Marvel's over the past few years.

I also tend to think DC does a better job of ensuring a reader doesn't have to collect a million books in order to get the main thrust of an event story. Marvel claimed Civil War could be read without having to pick up another book, for example, but I didn't find that to be true.

And therein lies the trick. How to craft an event that matters, but still deliver on a decent story. DC's events have largely (with some notable exceptions *cough*Final Crisis*cough*Countdown*cough*) been fairly good stories. I just wish they were spaced out a little more.

[Jim Thompson]

And therein lies the trick. How to craft an event that matters, but still deliver on a decent story. DC's events have largely (with some notable exceptions *cough*Final Crisis*cough*Countdown*cough*) been fairly good stories. I just wish they were spaced out a little more.I'm sort of evented out at the moment, too (though I enjoyed Final Crisis very much.)

[Reptisaurus!]

Oh, the irony. It is just so delicious.

I laughed out loud.

[Reptisaurus!]

Not that I think that it matters in the slightest that DC editors don't know who he is. Of the characteristics and attributes that are useful or needed for performing their job, identifying Golden Age Green Lantern characters is tied for eight millionth.

None of which is to say that Doiby isn't a great character, I should hasten to add. He's somewhat irrelevant in the current "All evisceration all the time" era of Green Lantern, but I hope he'll cycle back around once the books get.... what's-the-word... better.

And I'd CERTAINLY rather have an ongoing Doiby and Goitrude book than Hal "recycled 70 year old sci-fi series" Jordan or Kyle "Hey, Spider-man sells good! Let's turn Green Lantern into Spider-man!" Rayner.

[jv2k]

None of which is to say that Doiby isn't a great character, I should hasten to add. He's somewhat irrelevant in the current "All evisceration all the time" era of Green Lantern, but I hope he'll cycle back around once the books get.... what's-the-word... better.

You would be right if he hadn't been used for the past 60 years, but he was in issues of Young Justice just a few years ago. Are you telling me the editors that are currently in charge of TT, Adventure comics, and Bart's future book haven't even read the team book that prominently featured Bart, Kon, and Cass? That's ridiculous.

[joao_miranda]

You would be right if he hadn't been used for the past 60 years, but he was in issues of Young Justice just a few years ago. Are you telling me the editors that are currently in charge of TT, Adventure comics, and Bart's future book haven't even read the team book that prominently featured Bart, Kon, and Cass? That's ridiculous.

I know who Doiby is and if they asked me about him without any context, I probably wouldn't remember who he was.

He's was Alan Scott's partner 70 years ago and he appeared in an arc in Young Justice what? Eight years ago. He's not that important.

[Reptisaurus!]

You would be right if he hadn't been used for the past 60 years, but he was in issues of Young Justice just a few years ago.


Cover date of 2000, probably went on sale in 1999. That's a decade. Although, hey, it occurs to me! The Earth-One Doiby probably isn't dead, or eligible for zombification.


Are you telling me the editors that are currently in charge of TT, Adventure comics, and Bart's future book haven't even read the team book that prominently featured Bart, Kon, and Cass? That's ridiculous.

I like Young Justice quite a bit - I believe I bought the Old Justice issues off the rack, back when Young Justice was the only DCU book I was buying - But, no, I certainly don't think an intimate, issue-by-issue memorization of 10 year old comics is MORE important than understanding the basic, holistic character beats of the Golden Age Green Lantern. It ain't like Young Justice is being referenced much these days, and the vast gulf in tone* between it and the current DCU has rendered it - for the moment - kinda irrelevant.


* And it's the overall STABBY BLOODY DEATHY APOCALYPSE AGAIN tone that permeates most of their books that's *MY* major problem as a reader with modern DC.

[CYOTI]

Keith Giffen (who does some below-the-radar stuff for DC, but writes massive, important stories for Marvel)


Giffen signed an exclusive with DC.:rolleyes:

[carabas]

A paragraph? More like four words: overaged fanboy circle jerk. That's 'modern' DC's problem in a nutshell, based on most of their current editorial and writing staff.Surely you mean "That's the entire American comic books industry's biggest problem"?

[Munkiman]

* And it's the overall STABBY BLOODY DEATHY APOCALYPSE AGAIN tone that permeates most of their books that's *MY* major problem as a reader with modern DC.
Yeah, but they have that at Marvel, too. :/

I thought that it kind of worked in Sinestro Corps War, since that was a war, after all, and all the senseless killing emphasized that the Green Lantern Corps was facing its greatest threat.

But in general, I agree. Bloody =/= "mature".

[the4thpip]

* And it's the overall STABBY BLOODY DEATHY APOCALYPSE AGAIN tone that permeates most of their books that's *MY* major problem as a reader with modern DC.

http://the4thpip.blogspot.com/2009/05/all-dark-all-grim-future-of-dc-comics.html

[Doug Seid]

If that young justice appearence was the last time we saw Doiby, he is actually the ruler of a planet right now.

NOT SO UNIMPORTANT NOW IS HE?!

ok, so he probably is.

[the4thpip]

Doiby Dickles also appeared in one of the Kyle Rayner GL 80 Page Giants.

[the4thpip]

According to comics.org, Doiby's last appearances were in 2002, in DC First: Green Lantern / Green Lantern #1 and in Green Lantern: Brightest Day; Blackest Night (a GA Green Lantern graphic novel). And then there are the GA GL archives editions, of course, that have been publishing stories with Doiby until very recently.

[Pól Rua]

For me the big event every year was the JLA/JSA crossover.
I am old...:frown:
And what a great time that was! :biggrin:
I'm right there with you both.
*sigh*

I tried explaining what DC is doing wrong a couple of years back when I wrote this:

Crossovers seem to be the main marketing tool being used by Marvel and DC at the moment, and yet, evidence would suggest that Marvel is using them more effectively than DC.
I'd agree, for a number of reasons.

1. Easily encapsulated storylines.
As a comics retailer, I get asked a lot what comic series are about. With Marvel's big crossovers, it's fairly easy.
In Civil War, a bill is passed that requires superheroes to register with the government. Some are for it, some against, and the series is about the conflict that ensues.
In World War Hulk, a bunch of superheroes send the Hulk into outerspace to stop him causing damage and trouble on Earth. He manages to make his way back, and now he's MAD!
Try and do the same with Identity Crisis, or Infinite Crisis, or 52. It's not easy.

2. Stories About Characters.
The strengths of Marvel and DC are their Characters.
Most people read comics because they like Superman, or Spider-Man, or Wolverine, or Blue Beetle. When you look at the big crossovers, the first thing people want to know is what effect all this turmoil will have on their characters. And Marvel does this pretty well.
As a result of the events of Civil War, the Hulk got exiled, Spider-Man's identity was revealed to the world, Iron Man became head of SHIELD and Captain America died.
When we go over to DC, it's not so easy... as a result of Infinite Crisis, Superman... um... The Justice League... Batman... um... Batman remembers who killed his parents?
Too often, DC places the focus on their Universe, and not the characters living in it. Okay, so as a result of 52, we know the Multiverse is back. What does this mean for Green Lantern? Anything?
Having a cohesive universe is fine and dandy, but if you can't tell me how this affects my favourite superheroes, why should I care?

Most of the good stuff that's accesible to new readers coming out of DC has little to do with overarcing storylines, big crossovers or media events.
Paul Dini's Detective, Jeff Smith's Monster Society of Evil, Brave and the Bold. It's all good stuff, but DC really isn't pushing that.
Instead, they're promoting stuff that will have a new reader, unaccustomed to the minutiae of the DCU, confused, befuddled and annoyed.

3. Reboots.
This is a minor thing compared to the other two, but seriously. Since 1986, we've had Crisis, Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, and soon, Final Crisis.
Why should readers care about a story when in six months' time, it will never have happened?

In general, at the moment, DC seems too focussed on the big picture, and continuity-wide housekeeping and not focussed enough on just telling good stories. Marvel, on the other hand, is USING it's big picture crossovers to tell stories about their CHARACTERS.

I think the last paragraph highlights my big problem. There's so much focus on how the stories fit together that we're losing focus on the stories themselves. That, and the relentlessly grim, downbeat general tone that seems to pervade almost all of DC's titles seems to sum up DC's problems for me.

[Jim Thompson]

I think the last paragraph highlights my big problem. There's so much focus on how the stories fit together that we're losing focus on the stories themselves. That, and the relentlessly grim, downbeat general tone that seems to pervade almost all of DC's titles seems to sum up DC's problems for me.I almost agree with this -- the exception, for me, is Final Crisis, which was certainly painted a dark prospect, but was resolved when the light (which Superman represented) returned.

I suspect Blackest Night will be similar in feel.

[ClareQuilty]

Yeah, being sidelined into a spinoff book is really getting your due :rolleyes:

There's a reason The Murderer has been replaced three times. And it ain't because he's a compelling character.

Oh no...a Kyle Rayner fan...

[Jim Thompson]

Oh no...a Kyle Rayner fan...Easy! Not all Kyle fans feels as that fellow does. I like Kyle more, too -- but I'm also enjoying Hal's story.

[Mobey Wee]

Agreed. I guess DC's saving grace, for me, has been I have enjoyed their events much more than I have enjoyed Marvel's over the past few years.

I also tend to think DC does a better job of ensuring a reader doesn't have to collect a million books in order to get the main thrust of an event story. Marvel claimed Civil War could be read without having to pick up another book, for example, but I didn't find that to be true.

Hmmm... I disagree. I must say, as a person that usually TRIES to start reading more DC when the events happen, they do not make it very easy. I bought the Final Crisis trade (just like I bought the first 2 volumes of 52) hoping I could pick up what I needed to know as I went along; this did not happen; it just felt like I was missing something the whole time. I'm not really confused about what is happening, usually, I'm confused about why it is happening, why I am supposed to care. Civil War did spread out a little bit, but I think you'd have a much easier time understanding the Civil War trade than you would Final Crisis, and that's with the superman crossovers in there also. Secret Invasion is the same. It really wasn't my favorite story (not at all :mad: ), but it wasn't exactly complicated. With a couple paragraphs setup during each issue, you're usually pretty well-informed.

I am trying to be a bigger DC fan, it's just coming slower than I would have expected, with all the hype around countdown and FC, I was really expecting to be blown away. I wasn't. While I do find myself being let down by some of the marvel events (usually lots and lots of build up to a fizzle out ending), I actually dislike a lot of the things I read from DC lately, such as FC. Sorry to FC fans, it just didn't agree with me.

But I will say I am very much enjoying GL and Blackest Night. It's close, but possibly my favorite book at the moment. I'll pile most of my books up over the month until I have a nice little stack to occupy some time, but GL and Blackest Night I'm usually flipping through on the way home.

[Jim Thompson]

Hmmm... I disagree. I must say, as a person that usually TRIES to start reading more DC when the events happen, they do not make it very easy. I bought the Final Crisis trade (just like I bought the first 2 volumes of 52) hoping I could pick up what I needed to know as I went along; this did not happen; it just felt like I was missing something the whole time. I'm not really confused about what is happening, usually, I'm confused about why it is happening, why I am supposed to care. Civil War did spread out a little bit, but I think you'd have a much easier time understanding the Civil War trade than you would Final Crisis, and that's with the superman crossovers in there also. Secret Invasion is the same. It really wasn't my favorite story (not at all :mad: ), but it wasn't exactly complicated. With a couple paragraphs setup during each issue, you're usually pretty well-informed.I'm not sure your issues with Final Crisis have as much to do with being unfamiliar with all the nuances of the DCU as much as they have o do with Morrison's narrative and approach. After all, a lot of long-time DC fans seems to feel the same things you're expressing here.

Having said that, I think Final Crisis can be summed up in a couple of sentences: Evil comes close to finally taking over the DCU, and the heroes have to fight to keep that from happening. The devil, as they say, is in the details. :biggrin: I fully understand, however, Final Crisis is not going to be for everyone.

But I will say I am very much enjoying GL and Blackest Night. It's close, but possibly my favorite book at the moment. I'll pile most of my books up over the month until I have a nice little stack to occupy some time, but GL and Blackest Night I'm usually flipping through on the way home.I'm enjoying Blackest Night, too, and I particularly like they seem to be structuring this around Hal and Barry, as opposed to the big three.

[oanswat]

Hell, I can name what's wrong with DC in one sentence:

Hal Jordan, Green Lantern.

Says the one guy who actually liked Spidey's "clone saga"

[Jim Thompson]

Says the one guy who actually liked Spidey's "clone saga"Hey! I liked the Clone Saga, too, and I don't agree with this guy's opinion about Hal Jordan. :tongue:

No broad brush! No broad brush! No broad brush! :tongue:

[Mat001]

Hey! I liked the Clone Saga, too, and I don't agree with this guy's opinion about Hal Jordan. :tongue:

No broad brush! No broad brush! No broad brush! :tongue:

Same here.

[spidarwin]

You have got to love the Hal haters, there is nothing more entertaining than seeing someone have a mental breakdown because of a fictional character.

May I quote you on this? :)

[4thHorseman]

There's a reason The Murderer has been replaced three times. And it ain't because he's a compelling character.

I'm a Rayner fan, but I'm confused by this statement.

Hasn't every Earth GL been replaced numerous times?

[Taskmaster]

I'm a Rayner fan, but I'm confused by this statement.

Hasn't every Earth GL been replaced numerous times?

Yes, and every Earth GL could be called "the Murderer" considering John's tragedy in Cosmic Odyssey, Kyle's break downs as Oblivion and Parallax and Guy's leadership of the mass murdering group of psychos during the original Crisis. Heck i'd say that their "crimes" are worse than anything Hal did while possessed by Parallax considering that he only killed Kilowog and Sinestro. I'm pretty sure if I thought back through the years I could even find a reason to call Alan "the Murderer".

Irrational hatred of any character makes no sense, don't try to figure it out. I'm a big believer of the fact that there are no bad characters, only bad writing

[vinniewarlock]

Considering that this thread became a huge "Love/Hate GLs", I will state this:

Screw the Green Lanterns Corps.

I'm a L.E.G.I.O.N. guy, and as the Genius Jerk Vril Dox II himself said, In his piece of the galaxy, the 88 client planets he services, he is the Law.

Instead of having beloved and often idolized masters(The Guardians), L.E.G.I.O.N. has an unscrupulous, manipulative, egocentric and all-around hated leader, that is a Genius and a Bastard, that everybody hates, but whose services everybody want specially because he knows how to keep everybody in line so that your neighbor that you hate more than you hate Dox doesn't try anything funny against you.

As soon as this Starro Inconvenience gets dealt with, I want to see how much L.E.G.I.O.N. will expand in the aftermath of Blackest Night...

[Michael P]

I'd rather they continued to forget Doiby. That way, they can't do anything unconscionably stupid and lame with him.

[Crowforge]

I'd rather they continued to forget Doiby. That way, they can't do anything unconscionably stupid and lame with him.
....Like give him super powerss and have him beat up Darkseid or Doomsday.

[oanswat]

From the DC Nation pannel (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22463)

Will Doiby Dickles appear in "Blackest Night?" "Who?" [Senior Story Editor Ian ] Sattler asked. No one on the panel appeared to know about the character, but a fan explained that he was the Golden Age Green Lantern's sidekick.

That's not the problem with modern D.C. That's a testament to how change might be a good thing.

Who gives a rat's "a" about Doiby? No one. That's who. That's like being pissed that willie lumpkin was left out of a fantastic four comic. That's the absolute last thing that matters.

[oanswat]

Hey! I liked the Clone Saga, too, and I don't agree with this guy's opinion about Hal Jordan. :tongue:

No broad brush! No broad brush! No broad brush! :tongue:

And that's sad, because the clone saga was a horrible piece of crap that ruined Spider-man for a friggin decade. But you can like Hal just the same.

[the Hornet]

no, what's sad is that you're proud to be a fanboy.

and one of Green Lantern to boot.

sorry, but I can dispense the insults too.


pretty much summed it up, for me InSovietRussia. Good job! :biggrin:

From a Kyle fan, I am now a fan of all 4 human GLs, and Hal is seriously giving John a run for my favorite Lantern spot. Although I am a Hal fan now and think the current stories are superb, I have to say there is something sad when all character progression, whether bad or good, whether fair or unfair, whether logical or silly, is easily retconned as a convinient way of getting a character back to how he or she used to be. I am glad Hal is back but I wish Rebirth did not do what it did. Hal did turn bad but he sort of almost fully redeemed himself by Final Night. All they had to do was work on redeeming himself further, maybe give a reason for him to be GL again and he could have worked harder to earn the trust of the others. Rebirth could have been about the Guardians and Kyle dying and with no one else around, Hal took up the responsibility and saves the corp and is sort of stuck with the ring due to some cosmic mumbo jumbo (which would still be easier to work out into a story than what we really go).

But it is a hard argument. Although this more difficult path to redemtion might have been more interesting, some fans may just not want to read about a character who is not the perfect good guy. Me, I think Hal lost himself and stories about him strugling to get back would have been more interesting. After all, Death of Superman to me was bad but the Return of the Supermen storyline was great and that makes the Death story look better. Same with the horrible Knightfall and the improved Knightsend.

Still, Rebirth is canon, the current stories are good, so lets just ignore the silly retcon and enjoy.

And before I finish this, to be fair to Geoff, any other writer could have character assasinated Kyle or killed him off. That is the one thing I liked about the return of Hal, in that Kyle got a big part to play, in a way, Kyle was the true hero in that story. So I appreciate Geoff for the classy way he handled it. Look at how they killed off Ben Reilly to bring back the real Peter Parker (after all Ben had his fans too). And I agree, at least we still have Kyle in a good form (well almost if you ignore the whole Parallax conviniently possesing him part), unlike what happened with Hal when Kyle was introduced.

[Scavenger]

Marvel ain't any better. .

Ask a senior editor at Marvel who Toro was and they'll know. I'm not asking they know in depth details, but knowing the history of their company seems a bit important.

[Crowforge]

Hypno Hustler... you know some things are better forgotten.

[joao_miranda]

Ask a senior editor at Marvel who Toro was and they'll know. I'm not asking they know in depth details, but knowing the history of their company seems a bit important.

And since when is Doiby Dickles as important in the DCU as Toro is in the Marvel Universe? He's not Robin or anything. And again who would expect to be asked about that character, of the thousands that DC has? They probably didn't remember at the time.