Approaching character's powerlevels in writing - Question for Gail

[TheDreamKing]

Hello.

It's both a general and directly related to characters you've written or are currently writing question, but why is DC generally hard-pressed to allow its characters to have 'big feats', sort to speak ? I mean destroy planets while they are fighting, tank supernovas, create/survive black holes and the like ? Of course, I'm not thinking of pre-crisis level ridiculousness with Superboy carying a very large number of planets throughout the Universe using a chain or going so fast he threatens reality, but, as an example, in Marvel they certainly don't have a problem with things like this. We have characters like Surfer who easily create large black holes, destroys entire planets with his energy output, travels galaxies in moments and more. Even second-string characters like Beta Ray Bill who just recently was Surfer's punching bag has been shown as destroying planets during his battles, survive inside the sun, and overcome two black holes simultaneously. We have rip-offs like Sentry destroying planets in fights, while holding back, and even 'jobbers' like Terrax, who the aforementioned character Sentry completly humiliated in combat, destroy a planet in one-shot with his axe. Gladiator, another Superman rip-off, destroy planets with punches. And these are only a few characters, since there are quite a few who have this kind of showings.

While in DC, even its top-powerhouse Superman is hard-pressed to match this kind of showings. The next in line, Captain Marvel and Black Adam have nothing to come even close to those and Wonder Woman has even been suggested as not being able to survive inside being thrown in the sun in her last fight with Superman. Martian Manhunter, Supergirl, Power Girl I shouldn't even mention either.

I know this sounds like a battle board question, but bear with me please. :P

[galactica]

DC characters are more careful in the use of their power?

[TheDreamKing]

DC characters are more careful in the use of their power?

Possible explination. But it doesn't make up for their durability. Like I mentioned, Wonder Woman thought she would die when thrown into the sun, Superman was knocked out by nukes and even in his high feats he gets knocked out by a supernova while he is on another planet and is also knocked out when he destroys a moon.

[ShaunN]

This is interesting because, in general, I think that the main DC characters are more powerful than the main Marvel characters. In the JLA/Avengers mini, this was pretty much established when Superman beat Thor, noting at the time that, on Supes' world, the "dials go up to 11". In the same series, it was established that Wonder Woman is about as strong as Thor or Hercules.

Characters such as the Silver Surfer - i.e., mainstream characters who are more powerful than the "dominant" characters of the fictional universe - are more common at Marvel than DC. (And the power relationship between the Surfer and Thor, for example, has always been less clear than it should be - Thor usually does surprisingly well when he encounters the Surfer even though, by rights, Norrin Radd should make mincemeat out of him). It may be that because Superman is the gold standard at DC (i.e., not too many characters are allowed to be stronger than Superman) that it creates the overall impression that DC characters are weaker than Marvel characters (and, if Supes is the standard, then this is true).

There are a lot of examples of Marvel characters doing some spectacular things, while this is less common of DC characters today. (Though, recently, Superman destroyed a shadow-version of the moon that had the same mass as the real thing). Superman has also implied, in recent issues (in his battle with Black Adam, for example) that he can smash moons with a single punch. Part of the reason that Diana has had problems gaining respect, I think, is that writers have been reluctant to show her with this level of power (with rare exceptions) even though she should definitely be doing the same kind of things as Superman. I don't know if this is a kind of inherent sexism at work, or if there is just some aversion to making WW as formidable as she should really be. (Again, with rare exceptions. In a recent Batman/Superman issue, where BM gains SM's power, there is a scene where Diana punches BM unexpectedly. He hits the moon, then thinks to himself that, given how hard he was hit, there is only one person who could have hit him - i.e., Diana. That is a nice comment on her strength, though I think the statement is inaccurate - I suspect that Supergirl, Powergirl and Captain Marvel all could have hit him as hard).

I think that part of the answer is that there are many Marvel characters who have been portrayed quite inconsistently. Also, some of the more spectacular feats that you mention are quite uncommon - moving and destroying planets doesn't happen often and we can assume, perhaps, that these are small planets. (But they are still planets and you are correct in your overall point).

Indeed, it is hard to get a guage on many Marvel characters. The strength charts from the Marvel handbook, for example, make little sense - the maximum range of what the strongest characters can lift is 100 tons? Huh? How does that make any sense when these are the same characters who are lfting mountains?

At any rate, I suspect there is no easy answer for this. So much of what happens is determined by writers and writers can easily misrepresent characters or present situations that seem illogical, given the character's power level. A recent example of this: in Nova, Robbie Rider is holding down the Strontian with a gravimetric beam. He is having great difficulty doing so, but he is accomplishing it (at least for a time). Now, Strontian is the same race as Gladiator and should be every bit as strong. It has already been established that she is frighteningly powerful. By rights, she should just push back through the planet until she escapes the influence of the beam or, even more, just fly up against the beam (she can fly in space at warpspeed under her own power!) or just stand up. There are so many ways she could have escaped this trap that the only reason she did not is because the writers decided she could not, for the sake of the story. (Or maybe she was toying with Robbie - but that seems unlikely). This particular example of "how powerful is she?" will now go into the canon and need to be explained reasonably at some point, even though there is no reasonable explanation.

Anyway, sorry about the stream of consciousness ramblings. (I'm really tired!) Hope some of my comments made some sense.

[Cam63]

I'm amused by the inconsistancies of say, Superman pushing a planet in one story and then strain when he has to pick up a car in another.

[PatrickG]

My take on Superman would be that he actually has normal human levels of exertion and that he can move planets but that the exertion of his superhuman feats is unfathomable to a normal person and, yet, something he doesn't let on.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

Man, I hate 'stupid' levels of power--really pushes at the boundary between reasonably reality-based escapist fantasy and infantile parody. That level of power is BORING in a character, and it's why Superman (as a personality) was mind-numbingly lame in the comics from about '45 to '65--even THEN arguably (although I blanch at it) until Miller and John Byrne made him more like the early years. Real internal/external Struggle is key to good adventure writing, or any other kind of writing, IMO. Fleisher Supes-level is about as far as I go with my own, or any of the reboots I've done. I do think making villains that sort of 'omnipotent' is good for team books, however--the way Galactus was a 'force of nature', but seemingly still restricted by physics, to some degree, was a good one--but of course, he IS Jehovah...:D

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

Of course, a large part of it is that characters' power-levels fluctuate depending on whether the writer considers them 'cool...'

[TheDreamKing]

Thank you for you input, ShaunN.

Yes, I agree that Wonder Woman received proper respect in the crossover (beating Hercules, breaking Quasar's shield) but, its all balanced with the unjust treatment Kyle has received (having huge problems against Wonder Man, being at a disadvantage against Monica Rambeau). Superman was depicted as barely beating Thor while Captain America was suggested as barely being able to defeat Batman. It all balances out.

The problem was, if not for the crossover, characters like Wonder Woman really have nothing when it comes to showings to compete with even Marvel's second stringer like Beta Ray Bill and the like, not even getting into Hulk/Thor/Silver Surfer territories. DC is, in my opinion, making a mistake by building up character's powerlevels by focusing too much on comparisons with Superman. What is the first thing that pops in mind when thinking of Captain Marvel powerlevel/showings-wise ? Having been repeatedly compared to and gone up against Superman. Martian Manhunter ? The recent Green Lantern comic further enforces this ideea where he describes himself with "I'm as strong as Superman!". Wonder Woman ? Her most famous showings are against Superman. And this is even worse due to the fact that it's been a long time since even Superman has had feats comparable with those of Marvel's characters. The moon feat you just mentioned is ridiculous due soley to the fact that not only does he need to build up a huge momentum by going near-lightspeed in order to destroy a fricking moon, but also gets knocked out by doing so when even around 2000 he was splitting Saturn's moons in half with ease. In the Geoff Johns written Brainiac arc he gets knocked out for an extended perod of time by a supernova while he is on a planet from that solar system (not even being at point-blank). He even got knocked out by a nuke in the crossover with the Tangent Universe. It's getting ridiculous. It seems like this days, only Grant Morrison gives the character the proper respect, with Final Crisis and Superman Beyond (which is not only one of (if not the) greatest Superman stories ever told and yet he is very high powerlevel wise, similar to All-Star Superman, another Grant Morrison written story). I'm not even going to get into "Hey, let's have Barry completly humiliate him, it doesn't matter if it completly spits on the Flash/Superman speed rivalry and even continuity!".

And just look at Marvel. Beta Ray Bill has epic planet-shattering fights against Stardust (Beta Ray Bill: Stormbreaker), Surfer casually and with relative ease creates large Black Holes (on another ocassion he even fought in one) and his energy output destroys a planet (Annihilation). Sentry destroys planets while fighting Genis and holding back no less. Terrax, the whipping boy of everybody, destroys a planet with one axe hit (in Heralds of Galactus, iirc). Hulk, while not even in his strongest form, holds a planet together with his physicall force. And many, many more (Gladiator, Nova etc.) . And due to this awe-inspiring showings, the characters get respect (and I'd know since I frequently visit battle boards, obviously).

They stand on their own, unlike many of DC's characters who are entirely reliant on how Superman is portrayed during that period and thus their powerlevel in relation to him. They need their own showings, their own feats and epic battles. The few characters that have been able to get out of Superman's shadow are the Green Lanterns and the Flashes. Why not have someone like, say Black Adam, destroy planets while fighting somebody ? Why not have Wonder Woman punch somebody in the sun ? Why not have Captain Marvel tank Supernovas ? Why not have Superman go through/fight in Black Holes ? It seems like DC heroes are generally watered down, and the "They become to powerfull to write" doesn't really stand anymore, since not only are Marvel doing it for a while and they have no problem writing them, but it's the writers job to find threats big enough and, in the end, it's not like characters are written constantly at planet-shattering levels, but having these kind of fights every once in a while would be benefic, especially considering how current DC heroes are.

My opinion, at least.

[ShaunN]

Dear Dreamking,

I get what you're saying. I don't go to Battle Boards, so I don't know what's going on there, so my impressions are from several decades of reading comics on a somewhat sporadic basis.

(BTW, could you give me the reference for where Sentry destroys a planet that you mention?)

My impressions are a bit different from yours and I don't really have an adequate response. I'd argue, for example, that Superman - as presently written in DC - is as powerful or more powerful than almost every major Marvel hero. Certainly, I don't think that Thor could casually destroy the moon or could walk away from a nuclear blast unscathed. The fact that a really powerful blast could knock out Superman should not be that big a deal - the more impressive feat is that it just knocks him out! (I'm not sure which event you are referencing here, since even during John Byrne's "re-imagining" of the character in the 1980s, Supes was taking 40 megaton blasts without mussing his hair). Again, relatively few major Marvel characters could take a major nuclear blast without harm.

I think that the real outliers are in the examples you use of various cosmic Marvel characters who seem to be operating on a scale of power that throws everything off. With the Silver Surfer, the comparison may not be fair - even in the Superman/Silver Surfer crossover, it was quickly established that the Surfer was much more powerful than Superman. Even so, the Surfer's levels of power have been portrayed very inconsistently over the decades, and I expect it will get worse now that he has actually had a power boost.

The real problem here is with the writers. They are giving some of these characters powers of a magnitude that is so immense it really does throw everything else off. Do we really need to have any Marvel hero who can destroy a whole planet with physical force? The problem is that the person who writes this is suffering from a lack of imagination, in my view, or at least a complete failure to understand the kind of power and force that would be necessary to perform this kind of feat. By the transitive property, if Beta Ray Bill can destroy a planet, and Bill is the equal of Thor, then why does Thor have so many problems beating the Hulk? Surely the Hulk, even as tough as he is, could not withstand blows that could shatter an entire planet? And if he is, then how can Spideman (or almost anyone else, for that matter) even cause the Hulk the slightest irritation when they fight, let alone hurt him? (As it has been established Spidey can). You see my point.

The problem here may not be so much DC writers who are failing to make their characters powerful enough as Marvel writers who are going berserk with their characters' powers and not thinking through the implications. Do we really want Superman fighting in a black hole or Capt. Marvel basking in the heat of a supernova? In the 1970s and into the 80s, this kind of thing was certainly within the capability of both characters. But if we allow for this, then we are back to step one: how can anybody challenge a Superman who could perform such a feat? How do you create any kind of credible threat for Superman on Earth without constantly resorting to kryptonite or some other contrivance? As it is, when Marvel writers have the Silver Surfer do this kind of thing, they immediately create -or perpetuate- the enormous inconsistencies that riddle the character's appearances. If the Surfer can fly through the heart of a star - which makes a great deal of sense, given what he is - then he is immediately, realistically, beyond the ability to be harmed by almost any physical force. Mjolnir should bounce off of him like a summer rain. The Hulk should be like an amoeba before him. The fact that Thor, rather mysteriously, seems to be in the Surfer's power class, or that the Hulk is able to knock him down, are illogical but established facts that don't follow from what I've just described. (Or take the Surfer's first appearance, where he was actually hurt by a blow from the Thing - in this context, that makes no sense).

Again, most of this is the fault of writers who have not thought through what they are doing, or are caught up in the same kind of fan considerations as regular readers. I remember an issue of the Silver Surfer where the She-Hulk attacked him and he, literally, did not even turn his head when she slugged him in the jaw. Now, that's pretty impressive - but the Surfer should be equally impervious to the attacks of the Hulk, who is not that much stronger than his cousin. But, because the Hulk is the Hulk and there are a lot of people invested in him being stronger than almost anybody, you can pretty much bet that the Surfer will never be able to just dismiss the strength of the Hulk (even though, by rights, the Hulk should not last a second against most of Marvel's major cosmic characters).

In the end, maybe we need to be asking the Marvel writers to rein in their tendency to make their characters stupidly, illogically powerful rather than asking DC to follow the lead of Marvel in this respect. At least with DC, there is a kind of consistency that keeps their characters in a roughly comparable scale. With Marvel, the characters are all over the map. Apparently, whether or not Bill or even the Surfer are insanely powerful depends on whether or not they are on Earth or in space and what point the writer wants to make. (The Red Hulk killing the Silver Surfer? Huh?)

[TheDreamKing]

Dear Dreamking,

I get what you're saying. I don't go to Battle Boards, so I don't know what's going on there, so my impressions are from several decades of reading comics on a somewhat sporadic basis.

(BTW, could you give me the reference for where Sentry destroys a planet that you mention?)

My impressions are a bit different from yours and I don't really have an adequate response. I'd argue, for example, that Superman - as presently written in DC - is as powerful or more powerful than almost every major Marvel hero. Certainly, I don't think that Thor could casually destroy the moon or could walk away from a nuclear blast unscathed. The fact that a really powerful blast could knock out Superman should not be that big a deal - the more impressive feat is that it just knocks him out! (I'm not sure which event you are referencing here, since even during John Byrne's "re-imagining" of the character in the 1980s, Supes was taking 40 megaton blasts without mussing his hair). Again, relatively few major Marvel characters could take a major nuclear blast without harm.

I think that the real outliers are in the examples you use of various cosmic Marvel characters who seem to be operating on a scale of power that throws everything off. With the Silver Surfer, the comparison may not be fair - even in the Superman/Silver Surfer crossover, it was quickly established that the Surfer was much more powerful than Superman. Even so, the Surfer's levels of power have been portrayed very inconsistently over the decades, and I expect it will get worse now that he has actually had a power boost.

The real problem here is with the writers. They are giving some of these characters powers of a magnitude that is so immense it really does throw everything else off. Do we really need to have any Marvel hero who can destroy a whole planet with physical force? The problem is that the person who writes this is suffering from a lack of imagination, in my view, or at least a complete failure to understand the kind of power and force that would be necessary to perform this kind of feat. By the transitive property, if Beta Ray Bill can destroy a planet, and Bill is the equal of Thor, then why does Thor have so many problems beating the Hulk? Surely the Hulk, even as tough as he is, could not withstand blows that could shatter an entire planet? And if he is, then how can Spideman (or almost anyone else, for that matter) even cause the Hulk the slightest irritation when they fight, let alone hurt him? (As it has been established Spidey can). You see my point.

The problem here may not be so much DC writers who are failing to make their characters powerful enough as Marvel writers who are going berserk with their characters' powers and not thinking through the implications. Do we really want Superman fighting in a black hole or Capt. Marvel basking in the heat of a supernova? In the 1970s and into the 80s, this kind of thing was certainly within the capability of both characters. But if we allow for this, then we are back to step one: how can anybody challenge a Superman who could perform such a feat? How do you create any kind of credible threat for Superman on Earth without constantly resorting to kryptonite or some other contrivance? As it is, when Marvel writers have the Silver Surfer do this kind of thing, they immediately create -or perpetuate- the enormous inconsistencies that riddle the character's appearances. If the Surfer can fly through the heart of a star - which makes a great deal of sense, given what he is - then he is immediately, realistically, beyond the ability to be harmed by almost any physical force. Mjolnir should bounce off of him like a summer rain. The Hulk should be like an amoeba before him. The fact that Thor, rather mysteriously, seems to be in the Surfer's power class, or that the Hulk is able to knock him down, are illogical but established facts that don't follow from what I've just described. (Or take the Surfer's first appearance, where he was actually hurt by a blow from the Thing - in this context, that makes no sense).

Again, most of this is the fault of writers who have not thought through what they are doing, or are caught up in the same kind of fan considerations as regular readers. I remember an issue of the Silver Surfer where the She-Hulk attacked him and he, literally, did not even turn his head when she slugged him in the jaw. Now, that's pretty impressive - but the Surfer should be equally impervious to the attacks of the Hulk, who is not that much stronger than his cousin. But, because the Hulk is the Hulk and there are a lot of people invested in him being stronger than almost anybody, you can pretty much bet that the Surfer will never be able to just dismiss the strength of the Hulk (even though, by rights, the Hulk should not last a second against most of Marvel's major cosmic characters).

In the end, maybe we need to be asking the Marvel writers to rein in their tendency to make their characters stupidly, illogically powerful rather than asking DC to follow the lead of Marvel in this respect. At least with DC, there is a kind of consistency that keeps their characters in a roughly comparable scale. With Marvel, the characters are all over the map. Apparently, whether or not Bill or even the Surfer are insanely powerful depends on whether or not they are on Earth or in space and what point the writer wants to make. (The Red Hulk killing the Silver Surfer? Huh?)

Sure, it's New Thunderbolts #14. The fight with Genis, where the energy output is stated as being capable of and arguably does destroy a planet.

I don't think Surfer was portrayed as more powerfull than Superman, only more versatile due to the power cosmic. (when he resized the city is the best example). And there are a couple of things that should be taken into consideration here aswell, such as the crossover taking place over a decade ago, when the Byrne era Superman powerlevel was still a major influence on how Superman was written (it was only when Jeph Loeb took over in the 2000's with the OWAW crossover that Superman really got a push in power). Since then Superman has steadily but surely increased in power, not only due to showings but also due to stated upgrades, the most recent one being after Infinite Crisis (when some of his pre-crisis continuity has been restored aswell) and also the fact that Green Lantern have either matched or surpassed pretty much everything Silver Surfer has done in his history and even surpassed him in certain aspects and yet, they certainly aren't portrayed as superior to Superman.

I certainly see your point. Afterall, once you've passed through/withstood being inside of Black Holes, there should be very little things that should even make you flinch and I've even had this discussion on another board. But as we've seen in comics, physics shouldn't really be taken too seriously when discussing this kind of stuff and writers will continue making characters performing this kind of feats. They, like you said, certainly don't care about what kind of physicall force/durability this kind of things imply and write this scenes soley for raising a character's stock ("He just recently destroyed a planet! He was just recently inside the sun's core!" etc).

The whole 'If Thor one-shots moons, shouldn't he fall Hulk in a couple of blows at most' is another one of comicbook world's inconsistencies and is in line with "Why doesn't Superman use all his speed and strength to take down an opponent in fractions of a second" or "Why doesn't Flash always beat opponents before they even know they've been attacked with Infinite Mass punches" or "Why doesn't Thor Godblast his opponents". If you have a character perform a high feat in one instance it doesn't mean that you have to constantly write him at that level and it's generally the plot that dictates the powerlevel and not the reverse.

It's true, Marvel has kept pushing this whole cosmic space-feats stuff for many of its characters but the thing is fans don't go "That's so stupid! It doesn't make any sense!" but more like "That's awesome". And though DC doesn't use the 'Look at how much the character is capable of destroying/withstanding!!" type of character hyping anywhere near as much as Marvel does, it does have its examples (Green Lanterns frequently, ocasionally Superman). I think what hinders DC heroes a lot is the fact that most of them are on Earth where, as demonstrated with many characters, showings of power are pretty much a no. And Marvel just keeps pumping up every character they've got to insane levels.