Tony Stark Disassembled

[Moose967]

The next story arc has been revealed over at Marvel.com along with a teaser image. It's looks pretty good. I'm interested in where Fraction is going to go with this. What do you guys think?

You can find the article here (http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.9121.Chicago_Con_~apos~09~colon~_Star k_Disassembled).

[XPac]

I assume this just means his brain is erased or whatever, and he has to try and discover who he is again. Sort of like how characters get amnesia in soap operas.

[mikekerr3]

"He's making this ultimate sacrifice for the good of the many and I think that's the one of the reasons why Tony was never villainous," explains Fraction.

I'll call BS on that, Tony is trying to fix a problem that his own ego caused, That doesn't make his actions non-villainous at all. He's doing the right think after years of doing the wrong thing that does mean that he was not wrong or his actions were not evil.

[ijffdrie]

im getting sick and tired of storylines with disassembled in the title

[Mark_S]

"He's making this ultimate sacrifice for the good of the many and I think that's the one of the reasons why Tony was never villainous," explains Fraction. "He made a difficult decision and he's owning the responsibility for it. You might have disagreed with him, but now that everything's gone off the rails Tony's the one cleaning it up single-handedly and is making sure no one is paying the price but him."



Which is good as far as it goes, but Fraction doesn't realize-or marvel won't let him admit-that Tony has already made sure that other have already paid the price for his mistakes. Tony pushed people off of the cliff and then jumped off after them and now he's determined to make it to the rocks first and shield them with his body. Self sacrificing? Yes. But he's still the one who pushed them off of the cliff in the first place. So now he's broken and bleeding. I find it hard to work up any sympathy for the man who did all of the things he did.

I believe it goes to the moral decay at marvel that I mentioned in another thread. They simply can not and will not call Tony a villain even though nearly every act he did in cw was villainous. There is no limit to what Tony can do so long as he has good intentions. No act of his can and will be called evil by marvel, only mistakes. They don't seem to grasp that evil can be done by good men, but once done it should be called evil. It can be come back from, but not as long as the denial of the nature of the act is refuted.


Mark_S

[XPac]

I DO think the whole notion of Stark making the ultimate sacrifice is kind of silly.

He IS making a big sacrifice, no doubt... but with the actual law in effect, Osborn can just get the names again if he wants it. Right now it's not that big a deal because I honestly don't think Stark gives a dam... but because of the law, Starks suppossed sacrifice is really in vain.

Seriously... if Starks erases his brain, Osborn can just kind of shrug and inform the government that they need to collect the info again because Stark stole it. No big for him... it's not like Osborn even needs it.

Starks actions screw over Stark more than Osborn, and doesn't really address the real problem.

[mikekerr3]

I DO think the whole notion of Stark making the ultimate sacrifice is kind of silly.

He IS making a big sacrifice, no doubt... but with the actual law in effect, Osborn can just get the names again if he wants it. Right now it's not that big a deal because I honestly don't think Stark gives a dam... but because of the law, Starks suppossed sacrifice is really in vain.

Seriously... if Starks erases his brain, Osborn can just kind of shrug and inform the government that they need to collect the info again because Stark stole it. No big for him... it's not like Osborn even needs it.

Starks actions screw over Stark more than Osborn, and doesn't really address the real problem.

Don't look at it that way we readers are suppoded to be stupid enough that we don't realize that Norman would just collect the names again, that's a plot canyon not a plot hole

[Chase_Stein]

Fraction says "Stark Disassembled" follows this guest appearance tradition, but features quite a few more heroic cameos.

Ugh. :mad: I'm so tired of the guest appearances. None of the guests appearances were that important or interesting, anyway. Why bring more again? I think that what made the recent arc drag were all of those useless appearances that did nothing to develop the arc. I just really hope that this time around, the guests have significance to the arc rather than just a gimmick to make IIM "fun" or "exciting."

[Patience]

I DO think the whole notion of Stark making the ultimate sacrifice is kind of silly.

He IS making a big sacrifice, no doubt... but with the actual law in effect, Osborn can just get the names again if he wants it. Right now it's not that big a deal because I honestly don't think Stark gives a dam... but because of the law, Starks suppossed sacrifice is really in vain.

Seriously... if Starks erases his brain, Osborn can just kind of shrug and inform the government that they need to collect the info again because Stark stole it. No big for him... it's not like Osborn even needs it.

Starks actions screw over Stark more than Osborn, and doesn't really address the real problem.

Except Osborn won't be able to get nearly as many people to sign up as Tony did. The heroes'll just run and hide, especially if they're the ones he's specifically looking for like Spider-man.

[Mark_S]

Except Osborn won't be able to get nearly as many people to sign up as Tony did. The heroes'll just run and hide, especially if they're the ones he's specifically looking for like Spider-man.

Which will make the ones who were pro-reg in the first round look like hypocrites like Ms. Marvel. It would be nice if Fraction actually addressed this point in Tony's world tour.

Mark_S

[denyeverything]

Which is good as far as it goes, but Fraction doesn't realize-or marvel won't let him admit-that Tony has already made sure that other have already paid the price for his mistakes. Tony pushed people off of the cliff and then jumped off after them and now he's determined to make it to the rocks first and shield them with his body. Self sacrificing? Yes. But he's still the one who pushed them off of the cliff in the first place. So now he's broken and bleeding. I find it hard to work up any sympathy for the man who did all of the things he did.

I believe it goes to the moral decay at marvel that I mentioned in another thread. They simply can not and will not call Tony a villain even though nearly every act he did in cw was villainous. There is no limit to what Tony can do so long as he has good intentions. No act of his can and will be called evil by marvel, only mistakes. They don't seem to grasp that evil can be done by good men, but once done it should be called evil. It can be come back from, but not as long as the denial of the nature of the act is refuted.


Mark_S

Because any attempt to try to seriously address what Tony did would require them to write an intelligent story about the whole damn thing. And if you read Civil War, you'd know that most people at marvel are not capable of doing such a thing. Let alone Craption.

Just write the damn story about how Parallax corrupt Hal Jor-- I mean, Tony Stark. Exorcise the demon, and retcon that was the "alcohol impurity" that had effect Tony much of his life.

Which leads to the next mega-crossover event, the War of Beers. Happy Beer. Surly Beer. Buy-You-Another-Beer-Beer. And all the rest.

[XPac]

Except Osborn won't be able to get nearly as many people to sign up as Tony did. The heroes'll just run and hide, especially if they're the ones he's specifically looking for like Spider-man.

And that allows Osborn to turn any hero that refuses into an unregistered combatant. They become the criminals in the eye of the pubic. Meaning they become fugitives and they lose their rights.

Either way Osborn wins.

[Syrant]

I think you guys are just a little harsh towards Tony. I'm not saying his means during the Civil War were good, but the registration was going to happen without him. That list of super hero identities would have existed with or without him.

Anyway, to be honest, I'm kind of tired of 'depowered' Tony. I hope this arc is shorter. And maybe has a different artist.

[IronStarks]

My god its the front page and you guys are already talking about Civil War.

I swear that comic to you must be like scripture.

I see it now every sunday you pull out your worn copy of the bible i mean civil war and start combing through it for the 1,325,352 time.

"And oh on the 5 day did Steve Rodgers raise his mighty shield to smite the evil devil know as Tonyesfer, and then did the Tonyesfer strike him down, he surely died for our sins"

[mikekerr3]

My god its the front page and you guys are already talking about Civil War.

I swear that comic to you must be like scripture.

I see it now every sunday you pull out your worn copy of the bible i mean civil war and start combing through it for the 1,325,352 time.

"And oh on the 5 day did Steve Rodgers raise his mighty shield to smite the evil devil know as Tonyesfer, and then did the Tonyesfer strike him down, he surely died for our sins"

Fraction brought it up in the interview, read before you whine:rolleyes:

[SquidSquod]

I like this. We're going to see a completely new Iron Man and expose how Tony Stark's different from anybody else, including himself before the disassembled done. It's time for Marvel to give Tony a proper pleasing personality fit for an iconic franchise.

[mindcrime]

My god its the front page and you guys are already talking about Civil War.

I swear that comic to you must be like scripture.

I see it now every sunday you pull out your worn copy of the bible i mean civil war and start combing through it for the 1,325,352 time.

"And oh on the 5 day did Steve Rodgers raise his mighty shield to smite the evil devil know as Tonyesfer, and then did the Tonyesfer strike him down, he surely died for our sins"


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! F$%^IN GOLD MAN:biggrin:

[XPac]

I like this. We're going to see a completely new Iron Man and expose how Tony Stark's different from anybody else, including himself before the disassembled done. It's time for Marvel to give Tony a proper pleasing personality fit for an iconic franchise.

They tried that with Teen Tony.

That kinda sucked.

[Will.S]

They tried that with Teen Tony.

That kinda sucked.
Not to mention they've stripped Tony of his tech during the Obadiah Stane stuff as well as during the Frank Tieri/Keron Grant run where he donned a different identity and used some apartment with some experimental S.K.I.N. armor.

[SquidSquod]

They tried that with Teen Tony.

That kinda sucked.

Teen Tony never looks to be the same Tony because of the appearance.

[mikekerr3]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! F$%^IN GOLD MAN:biggrin:

Did Fraction bringing up the CW offend you that much:rolleyes:

[Sabrinaset]

At ts point, I don't care HOW they do it anymore but I am sick of the evil Stark personna we have thanks to JMS/Bendis/MIllar et al; I just want the heroic Tony/Stark/Iron Man back, and if it means I have to swallow seventeen dozen plotholes the size of a Yellow Fear Monster in the span of two or three comics, then do it and be done with it! :evilangry:

[IronStarks]

Fraction brought it up in the interview, read before you whine:rolleyes:

where? I see in the page the original poster linked no mention of Civil War. The closest I see is Faction talking about Tony haveing the Pro-Reg list in his head.

But even then It wasent just this instance, you cant have a topic in this forum with Iron Man in the title with out 2 or 3 people coming in and preaching about civil war.

[mikekerr3]

where? I see in the page the original poster linked no mention of Civil War. The closest I see is Faction talking about Tony haveing the Pro-Reg list in his head.

But even then It wasent just this instance, you cant have a topic in this forum with Iron Man in the title with out 2 or 3 people coming in and preaching about civil war.

"He's making this ultimate sacrifice for the good of the many and I think that's the one of the reasons why Tony was never villainous," explains Fraction. "He made a difficult decision and he's owning the responsibility for it. You might have disagreed with him, but now that everything's gone off the rails Tony's the one cleaning it up single-handedly and is making sure no one is paying the price but him."

Do you think that Fraction was talking about Armour Wars when he says that Tony was never villainous?:rolleyes: Everything's off the rails but Tony is largely responsible for it being so.

CW comes up because Tony's current Status Quo comes from his actions in the CW and his utter incompetence in the SI. What part of his current well earned suffering is not the result of his own acts?

[Hullababy]

I'm all for a yellow fear monster, anything will do but NOT Tony forgetting his past. A man without a past being a hero does not equal the former man who had a past being a hero. I am a huge Iron Man fan and I want Tony to go back to being a hero again but not this way.

[Patience]

Extremis = Yellow Fear Monster? He did say it altered his brain.

[SquidSquod]

There's no way Tony can escape his past. There are too many records and eyewitness that will make him understand what's been done in the past. But this is going to be a different Tony who certainly will have a different values & personality than the old one.

Besides having "Parallax" in the MU will add to the long list of stuff that Marvel copied from DC. Marvel will find a new way.

[XPac]

I'm all for a yellow fear monster, anything will do but NOT Tony forgetting his past. A man without a past being a hero does not equal the former man who had a past being a hero. I am a huge Iron Man fan and I want Tony to go back to being a hero again but not this way.

Tony's had his share of demons controlling him before... they were demons in a bottle.

But that aside, there are potential cop outs if Marvel ever wants to give Tony the easy way out.

Extremis could have been manipulating him. Or Kang or Immortatus, as they did in the Crossing. Hell, they could even try to blame it on Wanda.

I don't think Marvel wants to go that route though. It sort of underminds CW if some evil mind controller or whatever was behind it all. But who knows... down the line they might not care about that as much.

[Hullababy]

I don't think Marvel wants to go that route though. It sort of underminds CW if some evil mind controller or whatever was behind it all. But who knows... down the line they might not care about that as much.

Well it isn't like Civil war was that good of a story anyway so I don't mind :tongue:

I just want the old Tony back who I enjoyed reading about.

[Jim Thompson]

I just want the old Tony back who I enjoyed reading about.Amen, brother. Amen.

[Moose967]

I actually enjoyed Civil War, but hated demonized Tony. When Secret Invasion #3 hit ,or whenever it was, I was praying that we have a Skrull-Tony liked the Skrull Queen claimed.

[XPac]

I actually enjoyed Civil War, but hated demonized Tony. When Secret Invasion #3 hit ,or whenever it was, I was praying that we have a Skrull-Tony liked the Skrull Queen claimed.

I actually enjoyed Civil War at first.

But I literally enjoy it less and less everytime I read it. The characteriztion and forced writing all around just gets to me more and more... moreso than any story I've ever read. It's kinda weird.

Anyways, marvel flat out said CW wasn't because of skrulls or mind control, so Bendis teasing that Tony was a skrull was pretty watered down (marvel should really keep it's mouth shut sometimes, for storytelling sake).

I'll admit, I'm one of the people that found Tony more interesting when he's demonized. He stands out more, and is a bit less generic. I do think on a few occasions, they went too far though.

[Jim Thompson]

I'll admit, I'm one of the people that found Tony more interesting when he's demonized. He stands out more, and is a bit less generic. I do think on a few occasions, they went too far though.I don't like to see Tony demonized; I like to see him portrayed as driven. I think that's a subtle but important difference.

EDIT: One thing that did bother me about his characterization in Civil War was he seemingly forgot how he felt all the times the government tried to take over his inventions in the name of national security.

[Mark_S]

Well part of the problem of course is that Fraction is in an extremely difficult position. He was handed a character that had been buried in mud, told to construct a car wash for him and at the same time he is doing that he is denying that a car wash is needed. Peter David faced much the same problem when he could not do a court story between Jen and Tony.

I do believe that marvel feels that the semi-villain Tony has run it's course, but at the same time I think they are finally realizing that some will not let the crimes Tony committed pass. Deride us if you wish, scream at us if you must, cast curses on our ancestry, but we are out here and so long as the crimes stand un-answered for an un-resolved then here we stand. Marvel wrote Tony to be hated in cw. He was the villain at the head of a fascist government project and his acts of betrayal and profiting from all of that stand. I think marvel is learning that it is a lot easier to write some to be hated than it is to reverse that hate later on.

Mark_S

[Hullababy]

Well part of the problem of course is that Fraction is in an extremely difficult position. He was handed a character that had been buried in mud, told to construct a car wash for him and at the same time he is doing that he is denying that a car wash is needed. Peter David faced much the same problem when he could not do a court story between Jen and Tony.

I do believe that marvel feels that the semi-villain Tony has run it's course, but at the same time I think they are finally realizing that some will not let the crimes Tony committed pass. Deride us if you wish, scream at us if you must, cast curses on our ancestry, but we are out here and so long as the crimes stand un-answered for an un-resolved then here we stand. Marvel wrote Tony to be hated in cw. He was the villain at the head of a fascist government project and his acts of betrayal and profiting from all of that stand. I think marvel is learning that it is a lot easier to write some to be hated than it is to reverse that hate later on.

Mark_S

Tony Stark is a fictional character. You want to take out the hate, take it out on the writers who portrayed Tony out of character in civil war. There is no reason that the character has to suffer for some stupid decisions marvel made.

[denyeverything]

Tony Stark is a fictional character. You want to take out the hate, take it out on the writers who portrayed Tony out of character in civil war. There is no reason that the character has to suffer for some stupid decisions marvel made.

In fairness, he is just being a continuity stickler which isn't really unnatural for a comic fan to have.

[Hullababy]

In fairness, he is just being a continuity stickler which isn't really unnatural for a comic fan to have.

Well yes I get that but hasn't Tony had enough to suffer already ? I want the old Tony back one whose adventures I would enjoy reading. One who would make mistakes but was still a hero at heart and find ways to correct them. :(

[mikekerr3]

Tony Stark is a fictional character. You want to take out the hate, take it out on the writers who portrayed Tony out of character in civil war. There is no reason that the character has to suffer for some stupid decisions marvel made.

the character is the sum total of what the writer had hin do, he doesn';t exit except iwithin those action, the writer made him a deluded authoritarian thug with no morals or ethics so that's what he is until they fix him. The character has no existence except though decisions Marvel made,

BTW fictional characters can't suffer except on the pages.:rolleyes:

[Hullababy]

the character is the sum total of what the writer had hin do, he doesn';t exit except iwithin those action, the writer made him a deluded authoritarian thug with no morals or ethics so that's what he is until they fix him. The character has no existence except though decisions Marvel made,

BTW fictional characters can't suffer except on the pages.:rolleyes:

Well then isn't it about darn time that they did something to fix him ? Fraction's story seems hellbent on making Tony seem rather stupid and weak rather than actually fixing any problems. I'm just going mad. I'll just go back and read my old Iron Man issues when Tony was still a good guy.

[mikekerr3]

Well yes I get that but hasn't Tony had enough to suffer already ? I want the old Tony back one whose adventures I would enjoy reading. One who would make mistakes but was still a hero at heart and find ways to correct them. :(

He hsn't even bothered to apologize to anyone but the Woman he slept with then dumped in NJ? I would like to see a Iron Man that I can admire again but he has learned nothing at all from this he still thinks that things like terrorism and CLOR were justified and still apparently thinks that he always knows best. When that is fixed then he can get past the hate, but the writers show no intent to do so.

Before you can be forgiven you have to admit fault and Tony is too small a man to do so apparently.:frown:

[XPac]

Well then isn't it about darn time that they did something to fix him ? Fraction's story seems hellbent on making Tony seem rather stupid and weak rather than actually fixing any problems. I'm just going mad. I'll just go back and read my old Iron Man issues when Tony was still a good guy.

That's all subjective I suppose.

Fraction I think believes he is fixing Tony. I'll wager some at marvel don't feel he even needs to be fixed. Clearly, some readers feel differently.

There's no manual on what is or isn't the exact correct way to write Stark. As long as sales are fine, I think marvel rightly assumes there's no real problem.

[mikekerr3]

Well then isn't it about darn time that they did something to fix him ? Fraction's story seems hellbent on making Tony seem rather stupid and weak rather than actually fixing any problems. I'm just going mad. I'll just go back and read my old Iron Man issues when Tony was still a good guy.

They should have started fixing him up after the Cw, but the KbNauf's though that Tony did the right thing and Fraction just ignores continuity in a seeming random fashion (:rolleyes: Hill being heroic/symopathetic instead of a mass murdering war criminal:rolleyes: ) so they have not done so.

I don't know if the Knauf's and Fraction actually think that CLOR, 42 and Terrorism are wrong, you can't tell from the interviews or the books. I hope so but the evidence is to the contrary

[Patience]

That's all subjective I suppose.

Fraction I think believes he is fixing Tony. I'll wager some at marvel don't feel he even needs to be fixed. Clearly, some readers feel differently.

There's no manual on what is or isn't the exact correct way to write Stark. As long as sales are fine, I think marvel rightly assumes there's no real problem.

There's an argument that with so many readers (and some writers) firmly convinced Tony's a bad guy that he NEEDS to go through a complete teardown. He needs to be brought to the weakest most pathetic point so that he can rebuild himself from the ground up in order to be believably fixed after some of the Civil War tie-ins.

[Hullababy]

That's all subjective I suppose.

Fraction I think believes he is fixing Tony. I'll wager some at marvel don't feel he even needs to be fixed. Clearly, some readers feel differently.

There's no manual on what is or isn't the exact correct way to write Stark. As long as sales are fine, I think marvel rightly assumes there's no real problem.

But sales are fine on Hulk and ASBAR too. That hardly means those books are having great stories and are doing the right thing. If done well, Extremis can be a great way to explain away the poor decisions which Tony made. If we can get a good writer, there are chances of getting a good story out of it.

[XPac]

But sales are fine on Hulk and ASBAR too. That hardly means those books are having great stories and are doing the right thing. If done well, Extremis can be a great way to explain away the poor decisions which Tony made. If we can get a good writer, there are chances of getting a good story out of it.

Who gets to decide whether a book is a "great" story or not?

I think from marvel end of things, if people are buying the books they are assuming people are enjoying what they read. What else should they be doing?

[CMBMOOL]

Well part of the problem of course is that Fraction is in an extremely difficult position. He was handed a character that had been buried in mud, told to construct a car wash for him and at the same time he is doing that he is denying that a car wash is needed. Peter David faced much the same problem when he could not do a court story between Jen and Tony.

I do believe that marvel feels that the semi-villain Tony has run it's course, but at the same time I think they are finally realizing that some will not let the crimes Tony committed pass. Deride us if you wish, scream at us if you must, cast curses on our ancestry, but we are out here and so long as the crimes stand un-answered for an un-resolved then here we stand. Marvel wrote Tony to be hated in cw. He was the villain at the head of a fascist government project and his acts of betrayal and profiting from all of that stand. I think marvel is learning that it is a lot easier to write some to be hated than it is to reverse that hate later on.

Mark_S

Well said. :biggrin:

And here's hoping that Fraction realizes as he writes Tony that if he didn't break Osborn out in the first place during Civil War and used him, then this wouldn't have happened on his watch.:frown:

[Mark_S]

Well yes I get that but hasn't Tony had enough to suffer already ? I want the old Tony back one whose adventures I would enjoy reading. One who would make mistakes but was still a hero at heart and find ways to correct them. :(

I wouldn't mind seeing them myself. But while I easily admit Tony is suffering I feel his suffering is a little pointless. Osborn heads an agency with near limitless power and funds, he has the full backing of the US government. He can either recreate the list saying that Tony stole it or secretly have HAMMER operatives gather the information he needs. So the whole point of Fraction's idea that Tony is sacrificing himself to protect the other heroes is meaningless.

What Fraction seems to be forgetting is that Norman is not a supervillain anymore, he's a government sponsored supervillain. This is not AIM or HYDRA, this is a US government sponsored organization with the powers of arrest and prosecution. To beat him you have to overthrow the US government. Tony running and hiding protecting a list that Osborn can easily re-create just doesn't spell redemption or regret on Tony's part. Just some sloppy writing on Fraction's part. Or if there is a reason the list can't be created again why isn't anyone in the comic mentioning it? Because really it is the most obvious of all questions.

Mark_S

[Hullababy]

What Fraction seems to be forgetting is that Norman is not a supervillain anymore, he's a government sponsored supervillain. This is not AIM or HYDRA, this is a US government sponsored organization with the powers of arrest and prosecution. To beat him you have to overthrow the US government. Tony running and hiding protecting a list that Osborn can easily re-create just doesn't spell redemption or regret on Tony's part. Just some sloppy writing on Fraction's part. Or if there is a reason the list can't be created again why isn't anyone in the comic mentioning it? Because really it is the most obvious of all questions.

Mark_S

This I agree with. Marvel seems to be effing up his character more than before without actually fixing any of the problems.

[Mikey Brown]

I dont get why some posters are saying Fraction is a "sloppy writer". What problems do you guys really have? Tony Stark was in 50 books a month pre dark reign and wrote differently by each writer. Its like if Fraction doesnt pick up on what each writer says, then its sloppy. I happen to love Iron Man right now. This is the only time I have EVER bought Iron Man as a series.

[Syrant]

I wouldn't mind seeing them myself. But while I easily admit Tony is suffering I feel his suffering is a little pointless. Osborn heads an agency with near limitless power and funds, he has the full backing of the US government. He can either recreate the list saying that Tony stole it or secretly have HAMMER operatives gather the information he needs. So the whole point of Fraction's idea that Tony is sacrificing himself to protect the other heroes is meaningless.

What Fraction seems to be forgetting is that Norman is not a supervillain anymore, he's a government sponsored supervillain. This is not AIM or HYDRA, this is a US government sponsored organization with the powers of arrest and prosecution. To beat him you have to overthrow the US government. Tony running and hiding protecting a list that Osborn can easily re-create just doesn't spell redemption or regret on Tony's part. Just some sloppy writing on Fraction's part. Or if there is a reason the list can't be created again why isn't anyone in the comic mentioning it? Because really it is the most obvious of all questions.

Mark_S

I always though Osborn wasn't able report that Stark stole the list because he wasn't suppose to know it was gone. He accessed the list illegally.

Even if he was to recreate the list, he wouldn't be able to get the ones he actually wants, like Spider-Man. (Although in his case, I'm sure his file would be conveniently corrupted.)

[XPac]

I wouldn't mind seeing them myself. But while I easily admit Tony is suffering I feel his suffering is a little pointless. Osborn heads an agency with near limitless power and funds, he has the full backing of the US government. He can either recreate the list saying that Tony stole it or secretly have HAMMER operatives gather the information he needs. So the whole point of Fraction's idea that Tony is sacrificing himself to protect the other heroes is meaningless.

What Fraction seems to be forgetting is that Norman is not a supervillain anymore, he's a government sponsored supervillain. This is not AIM or HYDRA, this is a US government sponsored organization with the powers of arrest and prosecution. To beat him you have to overthrow the US government. Tony running and hiding protecting a list that Osborn can easily re-create just doesn't spell redemption or regret on Tony's part. Just some sloppy writing on Fraction's part. Or if there is a reason the list can't be created again why isn't anyone in the comic mentioning it? Because really it is the most obvious of all questions.

Mark_S

Yeah... what Stark is doing at least is dealing with the symptoms of the problem, rather than the actual problem. It's a symptom he has direct responsibility for, so it's understandable... but what Stark is actually accomplishing nonetheless is actually very very minor.

It's costing him everything, while really costing Osborn nothing he can't get otherwise. The fact that Osborn hasn't even sent his Dark Avengers or himself personally shows how little I think he actually cares... though I'm sure Osborn will personally throw his hat in sooner or later.

Frankly I think Starks time and effort would be better spent joining up with other heroes to fight Osborn somehow. But Stark wants to do this alone... even though it actually amounts to very little.

[XPac]

I always though Osborn wasn't able report that Stark stole the list because he wasn't suppose to know it was gone. He accessed the list illegally.

Even if he was to recreate the list, he wouldn't be able to get the ones he actually wants, like Spider-Man. (Although in his case, I'm sure his file would be conveniently corrupted.)

Sure he accessed it illegally... but who is going to know that except Stark.

Since Stark is the one that ran, I doubt anyone would take his word over Osborns.

But you're right in saying he doesn't have the people he really wants anyways. I don't think Osborn cares about the list at all to be honest. I think he was just looking because he was bored or something.

[Mark_S]

I dont get why some posters are saying Fraction is a "sloppy writer". What problems do you guys really have? Tony Stark was in 50 books a month pre dark reign and wrote differently by each writer. Its like if Fraction doesnt pick up on what each writer says, then its sloppy. I happen to love Iron Man right now. This is the only time I have EVER bought Iron Man as a series.

I don't hold him accountable for other writers, I'm saying that it is a bit sloppy that the one obvious question we've all asked about the list has not been asked or even thought of in the comic he is currently writing.

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

I always though Osborn wasn't able report that Stark stole the list because he wasn't suppose to know it was gone. He accessed the list illegally.

Even if he was to recreate the list, he wouldn't be able to get the ones he actually wants, like Spider-Man. (Although in his case, I'm sure his file would be conveniently corrupted.)

True, he tried to access it without a court order, but he can easily claim that he was just checking to see if the skrulls had destroyed or accessed it.

Mark_S

[XPac]

True, he tried to access it without a court order, but he can easily claim that he was just checking to see if the skrulls had destroyed or accessed it.

Mark_S

Yeah, there's a million things I think Osborn could do in order to get away with taking a peak.

Plenty of the registered people ARE government employees. I'd be suprised if he needed a court order to see their records. Would he really need a court order to see Ms. Marvels file? She was basically working for SHIELD at that point.

Of all the things you CAN hang Osborn for, I don't think this is one of them.

[Syrant]

Sure he accessed it illegally... but who is going to know that except Stark.

Since Stark is the one that ran, I doubt anyone would take his word over Osborns.

But you're right in saying he doesn't have the people he really wants anyways. I don't think Osborn cares about the list at all to be honest. I think he was just looking because he was bored or something.

According to Tony, Osborn needs multiple warrants and a federal judge to look at the list. Telling them he looked at the list and that it's gone would be like admitting his crime. On the other hand, Osborn is pretty resourceful. He could probably get around that...

My other assumption was that it's mostly an ego thing. Tony pretty much owned Osborn by taking "his" list. Wanting that specific registration list instead of a inferior remake seems like him.

[ijffdrie]

and it wouldnt contain spider-mans identity.

[Will.S]

and it wouldnt contain spider-mans identity.
Right.

That's pretty much the main identity that Norman can't really get again and I'm sure he would trade 100 no-name heroes for 1 Spider-Man.

[Mikey Brown]

What is the obvious question about the list that Fraction hasnt addressed? Im clueless here. Ive read every issue and have no problems with anything.

[mindcrime]

Right.

That's pretty much the main identity that Norman can't really get again and I'm sure he would trade 100 no-name heroes for 1 Spider-Man.

you make a good point here. but does norman know that spidey's ID isnt in tony's head? i dont think he does....and boy will he flip when he finds out it isnt. i can hear tony laughing already.

[XPac]

you make a good point here. but does norman know that spidey's ID isnt in tony's head? i dont think he does....and boy will he flip when he finds out it isnt. i can hear tony laughing already.

People keep asking Spidey to register... so I'm assuming it's known that he's not in the datebase.

But the whole issue is kind of confusing, since marvel states that everyone remembers Spidey publically demasking. I'm not sure how that translates in terms of what Osborn or anyone else for that matter knows and remembers. Not a whole lot of people are standing around wondering why they don't remember.

[mikekerr3]

I dont get why some posters are saying Fraction is a "sloppy writer". What problems do you guys really have? Tony Stark was in 50 books a month pre dark reign and wrote differently by each writer. Its like if Fraction doesnt pick up on what each writer says, then its sloppy. I happen to love Iron Man right now. This is the only time I have EVER bought Iron Man as a series.

It's not when he ignores the trivia from the past or even big things from the long past. It's that he ignores big thing from the fairly recent past

Examples:

1. Hill was shown to be a Mass murderer in NA#6, A war criminal and attempted genocide in Silent War 6, She was the first one to start the violence in the CW. Fraction ignores all of that and shows her as a sysmpathetic character who was a "Good Agent' and has Tony sleeping with the person who dove his 'friend" into active rebellion.

2. He has Parker and Stark having no real hard feeling after Stark threatened Spider-mans family, attacked him without provocation and sent the Initiate out to depower him, among other things. That is just all blown off

I am beginning to wonder if he reads anything he doesn't write himself:confused:

[mikekerr3]

What is the obvious question about the list that Fraction hasnt addressed? Im clueless here. Ive read every issue and have no problems with anything.

It's simple why doesn't Osborn just say Stark stole the list and make a new one, If anyone refuses he can pull a Stark on them and throw them in jail without trial.

[CMBMOOL]

It's not when he ignores the trivia from the past or even big things from the long past. It's that he ignores big thing from the fairly recent past

Examples:

1. Hill was shown to be a Mass murderer in NA#6, A war criminal and attempted genocide in Silent War 6, She was the first one to start the violence in the CW. Fraction ignores all of that and shows her as a sysmpathetic character who was a "Good Agent' and has Tony sleeping with the person who dove his 'friend" into active rebellion.

2. He has Parker and Stark having no real hard feeling after Stark threatened Spider-mans family, attacked him without provocation and sent the Initiate out to depower him, among other things. That is just all blown off

I am beginning to wonder if he reads anything he doesn't write himself:confused:

Is it me or doesn't Stark Knew that it was Hill's actions that led Cap underground ? :frown:


Still you bring up some good points, why hasn't anybody call them out on it yet, especially now within the midst of Dark Reign you think Norman would have learned about it by now ? :frown:

[mikekerr3]

Is it me or doesn't Stark Knew that it was Hill's actions that led Cap underground ? :frown:


Still you bring up some good points, why hasn't anybody call them out on it yet, especially now within the midst of Dark Reign you think Norman would have learned about it by now ? :frown:

Since the file was accessible in Shileld's records (Sharon Carter viewed it) and It would have been very strange for an extremis enhanced Stark not to find out what happened with his friend to start the CW, I will assume that Stark knows, Unless he just didn't give a damn enough abut his supposed best friend to take the milliseconds to find out.

The only reason that i can think of that they have not been brought up is that fraction didn't read the stories.

[Mark_S]

Is it me or doesn't Stark Knew that it was Hill's actions that led Cap underground ? :frown:


Still you bring up some good points, why hasn't anybody call them out on it yet, especially now within the midst of Dark Reign you think Norman would have learned about it by now ? :frown:

Because for some reason Fraction is simply ignoring what ever he wants. Or if he is planning on dealing with it in the current series then he's running out of time to do so. Or it could be that he actually doesn't think that Tony or Hill have done anything wrong. Given the near complete lack of moral boundaries for the characters in the past few years and in particular characters who are government agents Fraction might consider Hill's actions normal. Murder might just be what he thinks government types do.
Or he doesn't know that it happened. It's hard to tell with marvel.

Mark_S

[Hullababy]

Because for some reason Fraction is simply ignoring what ever he wants. Or if he is planning on dealing with it in the current series then he's running out of time to do so.

Mark_S

I have to agree with this. Fraction seems to be having his own personal continuity. I mean when exactly did Pepper learn to fight eh ? If written correctly, she should get smoked by Masque in one panel.