Best Noir Batman Stories?

[Chris S.]

Title says it all.

Just started reading Batman and am enjoying it. Just finished Long Holloween and Year one. I'm wondering what else I can read that will be in similar vain.

Sorry if there is a thread for this I didn't see it.

[marshal99]

Batman : Haunted Knight TPB , same team as long halloween , Loeb/Sale. These were Loeb/Sale one-shots before long halloween collected in one TPB.

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/08220183104.1.4TH.PRINT.GIF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Haunted_Knight

Batman : Dark Victory TPB , the sequel to long halloween
http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/08116851385.1.4TH.PRINT.GIF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Dark_Victory

[DubipR]

Go with these 2:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_OERTIT45RIw/Rnlljm3Pg1I/AAAAAAAAAJA/4csO44cCjx8/s320/EW+Batman+Gotham+Noir-00fc.JPG

http://img.infibeam.com/img/8c9aad9a/b8af1/98/532/P-M-B-9781563898532.jpg

[ScottyQuick]

I've never read The Long Halloween, but I would hesitate to describe Year One as noir. The protagonists are clear cut, we rarely see the actual main character, the coloring is occasionally bright and vibrant, and everybody lives happily ever after.

[mgs]

there are also particular stories in Batman: Black and White that are quite, noirish and good.

[Chris S.]

I've never read The Long Halloween, but I would hesitate to describe Year One as noir. The protagonists are clear cut, we rarely see the actual main character, the coloring is occasionally bright and vibrant, and everybody lives happily ever after.

I was actually waiting for someone to say that all Batman comics were Noir; not have someone tell me Year One wasn't.

If you go by Oxford English Dictionaries Definition:
A genre of crime film or detective fiction characterized by cynicism, sleaziness, fatalism, and moral ambiguity; film noir. Also: a film or novel in this genre. Cf. FILM NOIR n.
And if you take their Film Noir definition:
A cinematographic film of a gloomy or fatalistic character.

I do, however, understand what your saying. The popular classification of what makes something Noir have changed greatly. A lot of times we consider it something that is Black/White. Wikipedia had a very different definition but still one that in many way Batman would fall under.

Generally the rule seems to be that it is a crime story with a dark protagonist that is often involved in the story.

But I guess I'm looking for more the popular definition and something in more the vain of The Long Halloween which I would recommend. I really enjoyed it. I had a hard time picking it up knowing it was Loeb but I had a few recommendations on it. I'm really glad I did.

[Vidocq]

Generally the rule seems to be that it is a crime story with a dark protagonist that is often involved in the story.


The protagonist isn't really the dark one, in noir the Darkness comes from the setting and the protaginists are just a product of that setting. The Hardboiled Detective type, who is usually the protagonist in Noir stories, is often faced with a corrupt police force, a powerful crime family, doublecrossing allies (Most common amongst which are the femme fatales) and moral desitions that the reader may and many times should question (Hence why the famous heavy use of internal and external monologues). In that case Year One would definitly count as an Noir tale.

[Chris S.]

The protagonist isn't really the dark one, in noir the Darkness comes from the setting and the protaginists are just a product of that setting. The Hardboiled Detective type, who is usually the protagonist in Noir stories, is often faced with a corrupt police force, a powerful crime family, doublecrossing allies (Most common amongst which are the femme fatales) and moral desitions that the reader may and many times should question (Hence why the famous heavy use of internal and external monologues). In that case Year One would definitly count as an Noir tale.

Yea your definition is on par with wikipedia. I've never actually heard the term hardboiled before looking there.

[Melfice]

Go with these 2:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_OERTIT45RIw/Rnlljm3Pg1I/AAAAAAAAAJA/4csO44cCjx8/s320/EW+Batman+Gotham+Noir-00fc.JPG

http://img.infibeam.com/img/8c9aad9a/b8af1/98/532/P-M-B-9781563898532.jpg

Amazon.com is sold out, and I wonder if they will be hard to find in comic stores. Looks like interesting books

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

"Dead Reckoning" in Detective #777-782. It ran about the same time Jeph Loeb & Jim Lee's original "Hush" did. And while "Hush" does posess better artwork, the story by Ed Brubaker (Captain America, Daredevil) in "Reckoning" is the far superior of the two. It concerns a serial killer from the Bat-rogues' past known as The Charlatan who's now returned to take them down one by one... oh, and he may have a particular interest Two-Face.

[Chris S.]

"Dead Reckoning" in Detective #777-782. It ran about the same time Jeph Loeb & Jim Lee's original "Hush" did. And while "Hush" does posess better artwork, the story by Ed Brubaker (Captain America, Daredevil) in "Reckoning" is the far superior of the two. It concerns a serial killer from the Bat-rogues' past known as The Charlatan who's now returned to take them down one by one... oh, and he may have a particular interest Two-Face.

Is this collected? I'm interested to read Brubakers take on Batman. I've loved his take on Daredevil so his bats got to be good.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

Is this collected? I'm interested to read Brubakers take on Batman. I've loved his take on Daredevil so his bats got to be good.

No, it's not collected. Should be pretty damn cheap from the back issue bins, though.

Brubaker also had a regular run on Batman pre-Loeb/Lee, from issues #582-607. Scott McDaniel was his artist there.

[carabas]

Actual noir as opposed to darkish crime fiction? The only thing that pops in mind really is Brian Azzarellos's Broken City

As for the definition of noir? It's certainly not about looking like a fourties movie.
I go with Ed Brubaker's one from his foreword in one of the Scalped trades (which is loaned out, so I'll have to paraphrase rather than quote.)

Down, down, down. That's the essence. The story can go nowhere but down. All protagonists are up to their necks in crap, usually through their own faults, and if there is even a glimmer of a hope for things gettingbetter, that glimmer just exists to be cruelly snuffed out.
No real heroes, but very flamed, morally ambiguous characters at best. Villains that are cut from the same cloth, just a bit more bastardly.
Noir is not about plot. Plot twists in noi tend to be very predictable, you are kinda supposed to see most of them coming from a long way off. The essence of noir is that these character areclearly marching steadily towards their doom, and you keep on hoping that they'll make it, that they won't steal the million in drug money or whatever. The only real surprises tend to be just how viciously the writers decides to twist the knife in the wound.

Ed Brubakers run on Batman was excellent, but not noir. I mean, it had an uncommonly upbeat and optimistic ending for a Batman story even.
Jeph Loeb couldn't write proper noir if he lived to be a hundred; but Tim Sale sure could draw it.
Oh, speaking off him, the "Blades" arc from Legends Of The Dark Knight by Sale (and I think James Robinson wrote it?) is very properly noirish.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

Brubaker also did vol. 2 of Catwoman for a few years. Issues #1-24 are collected.

#1-4:

http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/graphic_novels/?gn=1296

#5-10; and some of the Secret Files:

http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/graphic_novels/?gn=1292

#12-19; little more SF:

http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/graphic_novels/?gn=2481

#20-24:

http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/graphic_novels/?gn=3885

#25-37-- when Paul Gulacy took over art chores-- are uncollected, save for the tie-in issues to crossovers like (blarg) "War Games." These issues aren't quite as strong as the earlier ones, but still solid enough.

The run overall draws a lot from Miller's Year One, and often seemed to push the Comic Code's boundaries (particularly the brutal "Relentless" arc).

[jgiannantoni05]

Though not a comic, the movie Batman: Mask of the Phantasm is one of the best, perhaps the best, Batman noir tale. It has pretty much all the classic film noir elements. Perhaps my favorite Batman tale (significantly better than Nolan's films IMHO, in terms of trueness to the character), as it sums up everything I personally love about Batman.

Rest assured, if I were a Batman writer/editor, I would push heavily to have it in continuity.
________
Mazda Verisa Specifications (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Mazda_Verisa)

[Chris S.]

Because I enjoyed Long Halloween so much I went and got Dark Victory this weekend. It was just as good. I was honestly hurrying to finish it yesterday because I so desperately wanted to see how it ended.

Its amazing that at one point in time Loeb was telling such superior stories. I heard recently that his son died before Ultimates 3 and that is why people think his work has suffered. I find that understandable and hope that his work gets back on par with his work on Batman.

Dark Victory also didn't seem as dark as Long Halloween. I imagine there was a different colonist; I forgot to check.

I wish there was more Loeb/Sale work out there on Batman. I know there is one more trade, but I believe it just collects their one shots Loeb mentioned in the Intro for Long Halloween.

[DonC]

The upcoming Batman/Doc Savage team-up looks to have some good pulp roots, if that's what you're looking for.

[carabas]

Its amazing that at one point in time Loeb was telling such superior stories. I heard recently that his son died before Ultimates 3 and that is why people think his work has suffered.I never bought that. IMO his work started to deteriorate immensely as soon as someone not Tim Sale is drawing his scripts. Even before Sam Loeb died.

I don't think it is a coincidence that Loeb and Sale aren't credited as writer and penciller on their collaborations, but that both share a 'storytellers' credit.

[dancj]

His son died way before Ultimates 3.

[nepenthes]

I wish there was more Loeb/Sale work out there on Batman. I know there is one more trade, but I believe it just collects their one shots Loeb mentioned in the Intro for Long Halloween.

I can appreciate Long Halloween for what it is but I'd be far from calling it an outstanding Batman book. The best thing about it is it's very engaging and accessible for new readers. And of course......the art.....

A much better Tim Sale story is the three issue LotDK arc Blades reprinted in the Collected Legends of the Dark Knight trade. I actually think it's one of the finest batman arcs ever. The writer is James Robinson and the villain is "The Cavalier" (not the original silver age version). The trade also contains one of the more thoughtful Poison Ivy stories, three parter Hothouse by James Frances Moore (Kraven the Last Hunter?) and P. Craig Russell. Being LotDK stories these are also set in the earlier period of Batmans career like Year One, TLH and DV. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=collected+legends+knight&x=0&y=0

The Loeb/Sale one-shots are nowhere near the quality of Long Halloween. They're just nonsense really. A much better thematic and chronological follow up to TLH is Matt Wagners two books Red Monk and Monster Men. Personally they don't excite me too much themselves but they fit the criteria of being similair to the tone and period of TLH if that's really what you want. http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Monster-Men-Matt-Wagner/dp/1401210910/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249996499&sr=8-1

Of course Hush is Loebs other big multi-character Batman mystery. It reads similar to TLH, looks pretty and showcases the modern era of Batman like TLH does for the early era. I actually think it's more fun to pick up for repeat reading than TLH

Down, down, down. That's the essence. The story can go nowhere but down. All protagonists are up to their necks in crap, usually through their own faults, and if there is even a glimmer of a hope for things gettingbetter, that glimmer just exists to be cruelly snuffed out.
No real heroes, but very flamed, morally ambiguous characters at best. Villains that are cut from the same cloth, just a bit more bastardly.
Noir is not about plot. Plot twists in noi tend to be very predictable, you are kinda supposed to see most of them coming from a long way off. The essence of noir is that these character areclearly marching steadily towards their doom, and you keep on hoping that they'll make it, that they won't steal the million in drug money or whatever. The only real surprises tend to be just how viciously the writers decides to twist the knife in the wound..

^ This is The Joker OGN. Which I'd probably recommend next, if not The Dark Knight Returns the don of all Batman books.
http://www.amazon.com/Joker-Brian-Azzarello/dp/1401215815/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249998349&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knight-Returns-Frank-Miller/dp/1563893428/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249998402&sr=8-1

[Chris S.]

I can appreciate Long Halloween for what it is but I'd be far from calling it an outstanding Batman book. The best thing about it is it's very engaging and accessible for new readers. And of course......the art.....

I had kind of wondered as I was reading it if the art was a large reason why I enjoyed the book so much. I think it really set the tone and made the book enjoyable. However, I think one of the things I enjoyed about it was how driven by non super powered entities the book is. I liked the mystery of it all. It was truly engaging. I see why it is accessible to new readers though.

A much better Tim Sale story is the three issue LotDK arc Blades reprinted in the Collected Legends of the Dark Knight trade. I actually think it's one of the finest batman arcs ever. The writer is James Robinson and the villain is "The Cavalier" (not the original silver age version). The trade also contains one of the more thoughtful Poison Ivy stories, three parter Hothouse by James Frances Moore (Kraven the Last Hunter?) and P. Craig Russell. Being LotDK stories these are also set in the earlier period of Batmans career like Year One, TLH and DV. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=collected+legends+knight&x=0&y=0

I'm not too worried about the time period in Batman that things are written. I want something that is just in the same vain. What I mean is stuff that is driven by a mystery and is drawn dark. It seems Batman in general isn't going to lead me astray.

The Loeb/Sale one-shots are nowhere near the quality of Long Halloween. They're just nonsense really. A much better thematic and chronological follow up to TLH is Matt Wagners two books Red Monk and Monster Men. Personally they don't excite me too much themselves but they fit the criteria of being similair to the tone and period of TLH if that's really what you want. http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Monster-Men-Matt-Wagner/dp/1401210910/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249996499&sr=8-1

Of course Hush is Loebs other big multi-character Batman mystery. It reads similar to TLH, looks pretty and showcases the modern era of Batman like TLH does for the early era. I actually think it's more fun to pick up for repeat reading than TLH

I've heard mixed things about Hush. Your saying its a good mystery though? I've already flipped TLH back to the beginning and started reading it again. If you say Hush is even more re-readable I might be checking it out.


^ This is The Joker OGN. Which I'd probably recommend next, if not The Dark Knight Returns the don of all Batman books.
http://www.amazon.com/Joker-Brian-Azzarello/dp/1401215815/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249998349&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knight-Returns-Frank-Miller/dp/1563893428/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249998402&sr=8-1

The Joker trade looks good and I've heard good things.

I've read The Dark Knight Returns and while this will likely sound like blasphemy I didn't care for it all that much. I thought it was one of the worst things of Miller I had read. I did a Miller summer a few years ago and concluded it with The Dark Knight Returns. Obviously it wasn't good enough to get me into Batman years ago. I saw what Miller was trying to do with it, but at the same time I just didn't care for what he was doing.

My other question is how long are a lot of these trades?

Part of what really sold me on The Long Halloween was its length for its price. You mentioned one of these was just two issues; does that mean I'll be paying trade price for just two collected issues?

You gave some great recommendations though and I will be looking into a lot of them.

[marshal99]

Hush is crap and kind of overrated other than some nice art by Jim Lee.

You can try Batman : Gothic by Morrison & Klaus Jansen.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c0/Batman_Gothic.jpg
The art style from Jansen can be rather jarring when compared to Sale

[Chris S.]

Hush is crap and overrated other than some nice art by Jim Lee.

I think it is crazy how creators like Loeb and Morrison can split the market so much.

[CountAchilles]

Hush is crap and kind of overrated other than some nice art by Jim Lee.


Each his own.

I thought Hush was a defining moment in Batman's tale in many ways.You might dismiss it as "crap".

[CountAchilles]

And as for the topic Long Halloween,The Joker OGN and The Return of the Dark Knight pretty much covers a lot if not the best of Batman noir.

[carabas]

I thought Hush was a defining moment in Batman's tale in many ways.You might dismiss it as "crap".No, it was a collection of defining Batman moments copied from much better stories, randomly put together in a vague mockery of a plot.

I've heard mixed things about Hush. Your saying its a good mystery though?Whatever else it is or isn't, it is not a good mystery. Half of the solution (who is the bad guy?) is so completely obvious that there really couldn't be another anwser. And the other half comes completely out of the blue; mystery ex machina.

Of course it doesn't help that Loeb has said he had abandoned his original idea (Hush is Jason Todd) rather late in the game with a bunch of Todd-clues already published.

[David Walton]

Loeb isn't a great mystery writer, but he does write great character pieces posing as mystery. If you want to enjoy a Loeb mystery you have to approach it not in the Sherlock Holmes vein but as something that is driving the characters to desperate action in the face of overwhelming chaos.

Personally I love TLH, DV and Hush.

As for noir recommendations? I'd add the first and second volumes of B:TAS if you haven't seen them. The first season is especially noir.

[Jim Thompson]

Loeb isn't a great mystery writer, but he does write great character pieces posing as mystery. Well said, Theo! I think that's an excellent way of describing Loeb's Batman work in particular.

As for noir recommendations? I'd add the first and second volumes of B:TAS if you haven't seen them. The first season is especially noir.Also very much agreed. The noir feel of the original seasons was part of the draw of the series for me.

[carabas]

Loeb isn't a great mystery writer, but he does write great character pieces posing as mystery.He used to be; he seems to have lost the knack soletime before he did Hush. And certainly before he left DC.

As for noir recommendations? I'd add the first and second volumes of B:TAS if you haven't seen them. The first season is especially noir.I don't see it. It's got a great fifties atmosphere, but that is hardly evidence of noir.
But I'll concede Mask Of The Phantasm that was mentioned earlier.

[Vidocq]

He used to be; he seems to have lost the knack soletime before he did Hush. And certainly before he left DC.


Not really, While LTH and DV are great stories, they are not great mystery stories. Their is an underlying mystery but just like in Hush, their are never any clues or pieces to a puzzle just a series of red Herrings and the conclusions and how Batman reached to that conclusion (if he ever does) dosen't really makes any sense. Like I said, LTH and DV are great stores, two of my favorites but they are not great Mystery stories.

[Jared]

Hush is a fun read, but it's not very noirish. It's an action/adventure tour of the modern Bat mythos.

[SpideyZERO]

Hush is enjoyable. But I feel like I've seen it all. Mysterious killer, everything is a clue, and every villians join the scene. I read it in Long Halloween and then in Dark Victory. It gets kinda repetitive the third time

[carabas]

Not really... Like I said, LTH and DV are great stores, two of my favorites but they are not great Mystery stories.
I meant, he used to be a geat writer of character studies posing as mystery stories, but he no longer is. Now he is to writing what Greg Land is to pencilling.

[dancj]

My other question is how long are a lot of these trades?

Part of what really sold me on The Long Halloween was its length for its price. You mentioned one of these was just two issues; does that mean I'll be paying trade price for just two collected issues?
Hush is a bit shorter than The Long Halloween - 12 issues rather than TLH which is 13, 2 of which are oversized.

Unfortunately though DC decided to rip fans off by chopping the story in half so you have to pay more for it. This has since become standard practice.

If you want good value, get City of Crime. That fits 12 issues into one TPB and I don't know if it qualifies as Noir, but it's seriously grim! A lot of people disliked the story, but for me it's way way better than Hush

[David Walton]

Well said, Theo! I think that's an excellent way of describing Loeb's Batman work in particular.

And I would think the simple fact that TDK borrowed so heavily from Loeb's premise--the destruction of the Gordon, Batman, and Harvey alliance--would silence some of Loeb's detractors. Honestly, Loeb deserves a credit in TDK.

Also very much agreed. The noir feel of the original seasons was part of the draw of the series for me.

I enjoy the tone and temper of the original seasons. I don't fault Timm and Dini for eventually moving on, though, and I think they did a great job of bringing Batman into the larger DCU. The result is all very enjoyable.

He used to be; he seems to have lost the knack soletime before he did Hush. And certainly before he left DC.

What mystery has Loeb ever written that was good as mystery?

I don't see it. It's got a great fifties atmosphere, but that is hardly evidence of noir.

I'd say the original series borrows more heavily from the 30s and 40s atmosphere than the 50s.

But noir isn't just an era, it's a tone and temper. The dingy brown color palette with heavy shades of grey; the ambiguous hero who is often at odds with the law (ala Sam Spade); the gangsters and robber barons with their fingers in city politics.

[Chris S.]

I meant, he used to be a geat writer of character studies posing as mystery stories, but he no longer is. Now he is to writing what Greg Land is to pencilling.

That was what theo said; you said nothin of the sort.

And I do think Loebs TLH and DV are mysteries simply because you don't know who the villian is. Loeb never gives you really definitive clues but who the killer is happens to be a mystery. I'd say there not good detective pieces. Really you never know who Holiday is.

[marshal99]

As far as i'm concerned , the hush storyline is pretty much on par with Loeb's current red hulk storyline. I only remember Hush as pretty art and having a lot of the bat villains to appear in it , but i remember the actual revelation of hush's identity was pretty anti-climatic.

[carabas]

That was what theo said; you said nothin of the sort.

What mystery has Loeb ever written that was good as mystery?
Okay... what you wrote was this:
Loeb isn't a great mystery writer, but he does write great character pieces posing as mystery. If you want to enjoy a Loeb mystery you have to approach it not in the Sherlock Holmes vein but as something that is driving the characters to desperate action in the face of overwhelming chaos.Present tense. What i said was this:
He used to be; he seems to have lost the knack sometime before he did Hush. And certainly before he left DC.Meaning that I don't think that Loeb writes great character pieces posing as mystery. Maybe, ten years ago, somewhat. But certainly not now. He still tries, with Ultimates 3 and the Red Hulk mess, but I don't think anyone is wiling to call those "mysteries" great character pieces posing as anything.


I'd say the original series borrows more heavily from the 30s and 40s atmosphere than the 50s.Fair enough.

But noir isn't just an era, it's a tone and temper.Yeah, that is what I was saying.
The dingy brown color palette with heavy shades of grey; the ambiguous hero who is often at odds with the law (ala Sam Spade); the gangsters and robber barons with their fingers in city politics.It's also more than a colour palette. I don't think Batman qualifies as an ambiguous hero. Not even slightly. Not Timm/Dini Batman anyway.
And gangsters into politics, that is just an element of lots of crime fiction.

B:TAS certainly has a go at a noirish atmosphere, but IMO falls far short of being actually noir.

[Chris S.]

B:TAS certainly has a go at a noirish atmosphere, but IMO falls far short of being actually noir.

I don't really think anything is completily Noir. I mean name something that is 100% noir?

I maybe should have titled this thread "Batman stories with Noir Elements."

I even had a hard time trying to find the right word because I knew Noir wasn't exactly the right fit. I never thought it would create such a debate though.

And I think if you take the Oxford English dictionaries definition it does fit. I think considering that is the standard dictionary of literary scholarship that has to stand for something. They were the people that coined the term noir. Maybe it doesn't fit by what the public perception has shifted to...Irony has taken on a different meaning too....

[dancj]

Okay... what you wrote was this:

Loeb isn't a great mystery writer, but he does write great character pieces posing as mystery. If you want to enjoy a Loeb mystery you have to approach it not in the Sherlock Holmes vein but as something that is driving the characters to desperate action in the face of overwhelming chaos.
Present tense. What i said was this:

He used to be; he seems to have lost the knack sometime before he did Hush. And certainly before he left DC.
Meaning that I don't think that Loeb writes great character pieces posing as mystery. Maybe, ten years ago, somewhat. But certainly not now. He still tries, with Ultimates 3 and the Red Hulk mess, but I don't think anyone is wiling to call those "mysteries" great character pieces posing as anything.

In that case you wrote it a bit misleadingly. Chris S wrote "Loeb isn't a great mystery writer, but ........." and you replied "He used to be". I can't see that as meaning anything other than "HE used to be a great mystery writer".

If Chris had worded his bit differently and said "Loeb isn't a great mystery writer, but he is a great character writer" then what you wrote could be taken to mean either that he used to be great mystery writer or that he used to be a great character writer, but the way it was worded, the only conclusion that makes sense is the former.

[carabas]

In that case you wrote it a bit misleadingly. Chris S wrote "Loeb isn't a great mystery writer, but ........." and you replied "He used to be". I can't see that as meaning anything other than "HE used to be a great mystery writer".Not really misleading. More like lazy and rushing.

[nepenthes]

If you want good value, get City of Crime. That fits 12 issues into one TPB and I don't know if it qualifies as Noir, but it's seriously grim! A lot of people disliked the story, but for me it's way way better than Hush

I have this on order and I'm looking forward to reading it again and getting to know it slowly. I've skipped through it at a library before and a couple of singles, it seemed a little drab and convoluted but I guess it's obviously something you need to spend a little time with. I've heard LOTS of negative stuff about it but the people who do enjoy it make it sound pretty cool. I've also recently gotten in Young Liars so I know Lapham can be good.



I bought the Hush trade last night and gave it another read....I have to admit, it's alot more fun than than I remembered and actually has a lot of cool character moments and relections on overall Batman continuity. I fell silly for being so down on it at various times :redface:. We all know what its faults are but that doesn't mean it's not a great - even classic- Batman book in many ways.

[Chris S.]

I bought Hush yesterday. I really really liked it. It isn't Noir but since a lot of people have bashed it here I thought I'd say that.

My LCS guy also gave me a deal on the All Star Batman and Robin Hard cover. I was hessitant as I've heard mixed things. I'm not impressed. I've found the only Miller stuff on Batman that I've really enjoyed is Year One. I think at this point I've read all of his stuff too.