why do people associate Fables/Willingham with political conservatism?

[Tanjint]

I've seen people do this a lot lately.

I remember it especially around when that decisions mini that Willingham and Winick came out....I think people assumed that because Winick is a gay loving San Franciscan and Willingham is an old British guy, that Willingham is all right wing or whatever...

I've also heard people say that Fables is a very War-Hawk (pro-war) book....

why? because he portrays war entertainingly? similar to how 85% of mainstream comics portray violence entertainingly?

I'm not saying it's not true....a few of you are probably going to pull out a 2 year old interview where he blatantly states his political stances or something but I just read Fables and didn't really find it to be right wing moreso than any other violent comic book starring libertarian philosophied characters that like to beat up non violent drug offenders...

so....someone wanna explain this one to me?

-T

[Tanjint]

oh, he's not British. scratch that.

-T

[Michael Painter]

Well,
Bill is a conservative who has stated so in a few interviews, and the war thing is the only thing that he's been really gone into depth about. As for background, Bill comes from a war family, and served in the army, so he has a strong opinion about the subject and has gone into depth about Iraq and Israel.
Many see the Fabletown war as an allegory to Israel against the rest of the Middle East, and Bill's utmost support and conviction in continuing to help Israel.
That's really all I know of it, but otherwise he's not a bigot or a hatemonger. Bill is a nice writer and person.

[Tanjint]

i was in close physical proximity to him many times at a couple cons and he seems super friendly to fans indeed.

ironically enough, i have always seen Jew-loving, as a liberal thing and as such, I endorse it. I say this because of the overwhelming amount of artists and prominent writers in our pop culture that are Jewish and express what most would agree are liberal views....and I love that. From Seinfeld to Bob Dylan, I love me some liberal Jew.

that said, it's nice to see that there is something Liberals and conservatives can agree about (supporting/favoring israel/jews). and actually that makes sense, explains why we've supported Israel throughout many administrations.

as far as the analogy itself...if America was the thing that Fabletown was fighting, I would agree but it's not...it's basically another dimension that fabletown travels to and fights, no?

i can kind of see that connection though...

-T

[Tanjint]

i'd like to see his thoughts on iraq and israel blatantly stated, you guys have seen such instances?

-T

[nepenthes]

DEPPEY: In an interview that you did for a website called Pop Culture Shock, you equated the basic concept behind Fables to the Jewish Diaspora; you've got characters who originally lived in the Land of Fable and then a great adversary rose up and drove them out, and now they kind of live in little ghettos in pockets around our world. I'm wondering if that was an intentional building block from the beginning, or did the metaphor rise up over time as you developed the concept?

WILLINGHAM: No, that was there from the beginning. As I said, I was raised in a pretty conservative family. My parents were both Scoop Jackson Democrats, which by today's standard would make them, you know, horrid old conservative Republicans. The other aspect of that was that my mother, for reasons that still I do not understand, was rabidly pro-Israel. The only big trip she even wanted to take in her life but she never got to was to go to Israel, and I didn't understand it as a kid, but growing up, the whole story of how the modern nation came about with the partition and the wars and all that -- and just this whole story of the tiny little country with being surrounded on all sides by these vast, vast nations dedicated to its extinction -- I guess it appealed to my mother's sense of "root for the underdog" and if there's any underdog in this world, Israel's it. So I think I just absorbed my mother's love of Israel. Politically, I'm just rabidly pro-Israel and so that, as a metaphor, was intended from the beginning. As a matter of fact, since this interview will be coming out after issue #50, there's a scene in which it's actually stated as fact that Fabletown's battle against the vast Empire, the Adversary, is very much like Israel against the Arab nations. A scrappy little country full of stiff-necked bastards who, the only way we're gonna protect our existence is to make sure that anytime you do anything bad to us, we're going to make you pay horribly. I use that as a formal analogy for the existence of Fabletown and their relationships to the Empire. So that's a roundabout way of saying that yes, that was in there purposely.

http://www.tcj.com/index.php?Itemid=48&id=410&option=com_content&task=view

you might find something on the Fables forum as well http://www.clockworkstorybook.net/forum/

[Tanjint]

heh, that's really cool thanks.


he's certainly pro-israel but none of that strikes me as what most would connote with modern conservatism, let alone neo-cons.

anyone want to spoil 'decisions' for me? i won't read it any time soon and when i do, spoilers don't make me enjoy stories much less.


-T

[JakeJarmel]

i was in close physical proximity to him many times at a couple cons and he seems super friendly to fans indeed.

ironically enough, i have always seen Jew-loving, as a liberal thing and as such, I endorse it. I say this because of the overwhelming amount of artists and prominent writers in our pop culture that are Jewish and express what most would agree are liberal views....and I love that. From Seinfeld to Bob Dylan, I love me some liberal Jew.

that said, it's nice to see that there is something Liberals and conservatives can agree about (supporting/favoring israel/jews). and actually that makes sense, explains why we've supported Israel throughout many administrations.

as far as the analogy itself...if America was the thing that Fabletown was fighting, I would agree but it's not...it's basically another dimension that fabletown travels to and fights, no?

i can kind of see that connection though...

-T

I'd say most American-Jews are liberals and support Israel because they are Jewish.

Conservatives support Israel because they believe in strong national defense. Israel is a big part of that because they're a major ally.

[carabas]

Many see the Fabletown war as an allegory to Israel against the rest of the Middle East,
More than that, Willingham had Bigby Wolf say as much on panel.

[Libaax]

How is Israel the underdog against the Palestine when they are one of the strongest military power in the world and its the Palestine who live in camps,ghettos in what used to be their homeland.....

Disgusting how people see them still as victims no matter how many Palestine civilians they slaughter...

[Sixa]

How is Israel the underdog against the Palestine when they are one of the strongest military power in the world and its the Palestine who live in camps,ghettos in what used to be their homeland.....

Disgusting how people see them still as victims no matter how many Palestine civilians they slaughter...

I may not be knowledgeable about current events,country/global affairs but I think the other posters are referring to history of the Jews,people perception towards them,how the writer describes his mothers intention about going to Israel.

Its more about how the Jews have been oppressed for centuries and then finally returning to their homeland and becoming their own nation.The premise/world of FABLES are somehow/someway related and based from this from what I can understand.

[Libaax]

I may not be knowledgeable about current events,country/global affairs but I think the other posters are referring to history of the Jews,people perception towards them,how the writer describes his mothers intention about going to Israel.

Its more about how the Jews have been oppressed for centuries and then finally returning to their homeland and becoming their own nation.The premise/world of FABLES are somehow/someway related and based from this from what I can understand.

So history is history and doesn't excuse living in the past and look past what Israel are doing today.

[amirm]

How is Israel the underdog against the Palestine when they are one of the strongest military power in the world and its the Palestine who live in camps,ghettos in what used to be their homeland.....

Disgusting how people see them still as victims no matter how many Palestine civilians they slaughter...

I'm surprised no moderator has deleted this post yet. I thought that politics was a big no-no on this kind of forums.

I was a lurker on this site until now, but just had to register in order to reply on this comment. By the way, when a moderator comes along, feel free to delete this post as well as the offending post...

The use of the word slaughter is a very powerful one and with a lot of connotations. It brings to mind a willing, malicious act of killing a large number of helpless people. I will suppose that you meant the operation in Gaza last year, because otherwise it doesn't make any sense (not that it does any way). The operation in Gaza was a reaction to a year during which missiles would be launched daily from the Gaza strip in the direction of populated areas in Israel. If a similar thing happened in the US and Mexico was the offender for example, the US would not hesitate in launching a retaliation I'm sure. The difference between Israeli operations and Palestinian ones are that Israeli operations are aimed to hurt terrorists and terror infrastructure. Sure, civillians get hurt. That's what happens in war. No one is happy about this. The IDF tries to minimize such civilian loss of life. They don't always do it successfully, but no one has any intention of hurting civilians.

By the way, the reason for trying to minimze civilian casualties is not necessarily out of kindness. It is in Israel's INTEREST to have low civilian casualties count. As soon as civilian casualties begin to mount, the world starts it spressure on Israel to stop its operation.

Palestinians, on the other hand, try their best to hurt civilians, whether it's missiles, suicide bombings, or just breaking into a family's house and slaughtering two small children while they are sleeping.

Not everything is black or white. No side is completely right or wrong, but it seems that people like you will always see only that one side of the situation.

And one more thing. The reason Israel is strong is because it is paranoid. After centuries of persecution, the jews have finally found a place to call their home, where they can live without being prejudiced against, or burnt to death in a gas chamber. It makes me sick to hear people who don't think this has any relevance to life today.

[Sixa]

So history is history and doesn't excuse living in the past and look past what Israel are doing today.

Yes, history is still history.What Israel(their government) may be doing today does not portray/example/represent the whole Jews in Israel(or the whole world).
I am bad when it comes to politics,but I know that when something shows up in the media:Things are not what its always seems to be(I sense grammatical error here....)

.But like the poster above said.Not everything is black and white.

There are more to it than just Israel attacking Palestinian civilians.
A friend of mine who visited Palestine said that even with all the condition/mess that's happening,there are still idiots(local Palestinian) who tries to start commotion/riot between the other locals who doesn't want to involve in/get caught between gunfire.

I suppose Israelian soldiers did cause civilian casualties o.And they did bombed infrastructure.I don't know whether the Gaza bombing was a mistake or something( I just don't care).
You cant just label which one's the bad guy and which ones the good guy.Ain' that simple.

All I know that I cried when I saw a picture of a girl and a boy(Palestinian) sharing a bread between two trying to survive without their parents.(captured by my friend).

My post may seem to look like I don't follow the current events(or an idiot who doesn't read news),my opinions may be wrong.If so,please correct me.



Palestinians, on the other hand, try their best to hurt civilians, whether it's missiles, suicide bombings, or just breaking into a family's house and slaughtering two small children while they are sleeping.



Not all though,there are still some trying to help each other(orphanage home,shelter)..Not sure if suicide bombing happened much during that period.
Lots are trying to cope between all those riots(and those who don't want to get involved)

Anyway,pardon if my post seems pointless(half asleep here).

[amirm]

Of course not all Palestinians are terrorists. I never meant saying that. Most of the Palestinians just want to live their lives in peace, as most of the Israeli people.

[Sixa]

Of course not all Palestinians are terrorists. I never meant saying that. Most of the Palestinians just want to live their lives in peace, as most of the Israeli people.

yes,of course you never said that.I just feel that I need to add that part you know.
And did I mentioned that I was half-asleep?:redface:

[JakeJarmel]

How is Israel the underdog against the Palestine when they are one of the strongest military power in the world and its the Palestine who live in camps,ghettos in what used to be their homeland.....

Disgusting how people see them still as victims no matter how many Palestine civilians they slaughter...


Dude, chill. You're a moron.

First of all, we aren't just talking about Palestinians here. It's funny how that's the first place you go just so you can put down Jews. And even then, you can't. It's funny how YOU can blame a nation for defending itself after years of aggression. Why weren't you speaking up when innocent Jews were being "slaughtered", Hypocrite!!

Israel is SURROUNDED by many COUNTRIES that HATE their GUTS. That is what Willingham is talking about, not Palestinians.

[carabas]

Israel is SURROUNDED by many COUNTRIES that HATE their GUTS.Then perhaps it was unwise to go live there of all places and uproot the Palistinians in the first place?

[Dave Hackett]

Trying to get this back on track (or maybe start another nasty tangent), here's a link to a story about Willingham trying to tie heroes to his conservative beliefs (he even quotes Rush Limbaugh, which I would suspect puts him squarely in conservative territory).

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2009/01/12/willingham-calls-for-an-end-to-superhero-decadence/

[drinkblatzbeer]

Then perhaps it was unwise to go live there of all places and uproot the Palistinians in the first place?

time to read some post WWII history and see they were sort of placed there, didn't really go in on their own...

[Shellhead]

The entire Mideast an ongoing example of Two Wrongs Do Not Make A Right.

And as it turns out, that rule holds even more true for a dozen wrongs, 50 wrongs, and even a 1,000 wrongs.

[amirm]

Then perhaps it was unwise to go live there of all places and uproot the Palistinians in the first place?

Well maybe they could have just gone back to Germany to get an extra portion of gas.

I mean, are you kidding me? It's not like jewish people decided to go to Israel out of the blue. They felt tlike they didn't have a choice. If they wanted to survive they needed a country of their own. And I'm talking here about pre-WWII. It isn't as if antisematism began in 1939. Israel seemed like the only logical place to go (though Uganda was discussed at some point, I think it would have probably lead to similar problems). And jewish people actually didn't want any fight with the Palestinians. Read your history, though, about 1929 and 1938. This is when the Israel-Palestinian issues began, when Arab gangs attacked the jewish settlement, murdering, robbing and raping. Later, in 1948, the jewish settlement agreed to the partition plan, but had to defend itself against seven arab nations who attacked it. Yes, that's right. BEFORE Israel had a great army, it was ATTACKED by seven arab nations simultaneously. In the beginning of that war, all the jewish settlement did was defend itself. Only a while later did it manage a counter strike, during which many Palestinians fled.

I can't see how can anyone complain about the jews occupying Israel. You have to understand the mentality. The Israeli people know that if they don't defend themselves, if they don't act tough, they will die. Because face it, the arab nations don't really want peace, they don't really want compromise. They want all jewish people out of Palestine, or dead. And if they can't manage to defend themselves, no one else will do the job for them. Not even the U.S.

Dude, read some history before you talk about something you haven't a clue about.

[Shellhead]

Israel seemed like the only logical place to go

Not really. A lot of Jewish people moved to the United States because that seemed like a logical choice, and it worked out well for most of them.

[amirm]

Not really. A lot of Jewish people moved to the United States because that seemed like a logical choice, and it worked out well for most of them.

Germany also seemed like a good place to live at the time. We saw how that turned out.

In the 30's there was alot of prejudice against jewish people in the U.S. Of course, they were allowed to walk on the sidewalks, but the holocaust shows us that unless the jewish people have a state of their own anything might happen. I know, I know, you want to say "this can never happen in America". Well, guess what. No one believed it could happen in Germany either. Just take a look at the growing antisematism in Europe and you'll understand what I mean.

[Ilash]

Germany also seemed like a good place to live at the time. We saw how that turned out.

In the 30's there was alot of prejudice against jewish people in the U.S. Of course, they were allowed to walk on the sidewalks, but the holocaust shows us that unless the jewish people have a state of their own anything might happen. I know, I know, you want to say "this can never happen in America". Well, guess what. No one believed it could happen in Germany either. Just take a look at the growing antisematism in Europe and you'll understand what I mean.

Of course, America suddenly turning on the Jews does sound very, very far fetched. Without needing to go to that kind of extreme a simpler answer for the necessity of Israel for the Jews is simply that America wouldn't indiscriminately open their doors for any Jews who find themselves being persecuted in another country. And it's hardly realistic for anyone to really expect them to. If nothing else, Israel is a safety net for a people who have been persecuted time and time again over the centuries all over the world. As a Jew, it does mean more to me than merely that but that is pretty much Israel's most basic function.

And, as for the other points brought up in this thread, Israel are hardly free of blame when it comes to their fractious relationship with the Palestinians but it really does go both ways. Anyone who fails to understand that there are two sides to this conflict is an idiot.

[Stony]

Speaking as the moderator, I have no problem with this type of discussion.
If it's integral to the themes raised in the comic, then by all means it's on-topic and open to be discussed.

The only reminder I would add is take care to be civil.

That means you.
Yes, you.

[amirm]

And, as for the other points brought up in this thread, Israel are hardly free of blame when it comes to their fractious relationship with the Palestinians but it really does go both ways. Anyone who fails to understand that there are two sides to this conflict is an idiot.

I agree with every word.

[denyeverything]

Germany also seemed like a good place to live at the time. We saw how that turned out.

In the 30's there was alot of prejudice against jewish people in the U.S. Of course, they were allowed to walk on the sidewalks, but the holocaust shows us that unless the jewish people have a state of their own anything might happen. I know, I know, you want to say "this can never happen in America". Well, guess what. No one believed it could happen in Germany either. Just take a look at the growing antisematism in Europe and you'll understand what I mean.

Not that I have a problem specifically with the creation of the Israeli state, but I don't think in the "big book of what is right" there is list of conditions where you become entitled to displace whomever you want and have your own nation. We don't just re-draw the lines of the world whenever the world goes psycho. We did for the Israelis, and I'm not looking to re-neg on that, but I don't think of it as being earned by right, just that that's the way things turned out.

Plus given your own historical accounting, it seems like it might have been better off if you immigrated to places where you would reasonable think you could live rather than form your own nation. It seems a bit in conflict to say "there was no place better to go" and then say how horrible the place you decided to go was.

The decision was made to make the state of Israel, and you look at what happened (as you stated the raping, robing, and murder of Israeli's) and what is happening (constant battles along the borders), then I'd have to say, I feel like that was a wrong decision. Doesn't mean I don't support you now or asking for some sort of evacuation, but that doesn't mean I'm going to agree that that decision was the right thing to do.

[TradePaperbackTraitor]

Germany also seemed like a good place to live at the time. We saw how that turned out.

In the 30's there was alot of prejudice against jewish people in the U.S. Of course, they were allowed to walk on the sidewalks, but the holocaust shows us that unless the jewish people have a state of their own anything might happen. I know, I know, you want to say "this can never happen in America". Well, guess what. No one believed it could happen in Germany either. Just take a look at the growing antisematism in Europe and you'll understand what I mean.

America has its own Jewish story with the Mormons. These people were so persecuted, they put everything in wagons and literally walked across the entire United States to a barren unpopulated land with a huge lake that couldn't provide fresh water. They also had their share of combat against the neighboring U.S. including a questionable massacre against soldiers and settlers that to this day has been swept up and hushed, although unlike the Israelis, they eventualy assimilated with their surroundings including an end to polygamy and other theocratic rules that didn't mix well with the United States. To this day, Mormons are still hated by Southern Baptist types and others who don't agree with their off-shoot brand of Christianity, but you don't see Mormons invading Missouri (where I believe their "Zion" is said to be) or building nukes to keep Colorado at bay.

[amirm]

Does Colorado threat to annihilate Salt Lake City?
Does Missouri send terrorists to have suicide bombing parties in utah?
Do the southern baptists kidnap Mormon soldiers who are patrolling Utah's border and then negotiate their return, only to have them returned in caskets after they have been murdered?
I fail to see the similarities...

Israel, whether it is justified or not, is a country that is a member of the U.N.
As such, it is entitled to protect itself from any danger. (no, it DOSEN"T mean Israel can do whatever it wants)

[amirm]

The decision was made to make the state of Israel, and you look at what happened (as you stated the raping, robing, and murder of Israeli's) and what is happening (constant battles along the borders), then I'd have to say, I feel like that was a wrong decision. Doesn't mean I don't support you now or asking for some sort of evacuation, but that doesn't mean I'm going to agree that that decision was the right thing to do.

First, to put things in the correct light, what I said referred to 1929 and 1938, before Israel was even a country.

The forming of Israel might be a mistake. We will never know that, because it happened and that's it. I was trying to give the reasons that lead to the present existence of Israel. Those reasons seem quite valid to me. They don't give the right to evacuate the Palestinians, but before the 1948 war, that was never the intention. Unfortunately, that is how things turned out, but the aggressors were actually the arab nations who declared war on Israel.

[dancj]

Israel, whether it is justified or not, is a country that is a member of the U.N.
As such, it is entitled to protect itself from any danger. (no, it DOSEN"T mean Israel can do whatever it wants)
Are countries who aren't in the UN not entitled to protect themselves?

[Leocomix]

Conservatives support Israel because they believe in strong national defense. Israel is a big part of that because they're a major ally.

Really? If so they might have to rethink things. Israel is an ally against who? The only reason some Arab nations or nationals are hostile to the US is because the US allows Israel to perpetuate their victimising of Palestinians. This support of Israel weakens national defense. I believe the true reason for Conservative support is due to issues of christianity. Fundamentalists Christians believe themselves superior to Jews because christianity is a "development" of Judaism. Islam makes it embarrassing to Christians because it claims to be a development of both Judaism and Christianity. So they'd rather side against muslims. All of which is silly really since these religions are equal.

[Name Already Taken]

Heh. I liked Bigby's slip of "liberals" until corrected by Snow White about them being "Literals" in the latest issue. I think it was an obvious dig at what Bill may be opposed to politically in some regard (Gee Ya Think? nat?). Despite what he has said he plans for when he writes this title, he doesn't do it in overt political ways with the cast he plays with. Even if Fabletown (or whats left of it) is an analogy for Israel, it doesn't detract from it being a good read, except for a few issues/arcs here and there.

[ddqfpluskick]

I've seen people do this a lot lately.

I remember it especially around when that decisions mini that Willingham and Winick came out....I think people assumed that because Winick is a gay loving San Franciscan and Willingham is an old British guy, that Willingham is all right wing or whatever...

I've also heard people say that Fables is a very War-Hawk (pro-war) book....

why? because he portrays war entertainingly? similar to how 85% of mainstream comics portray violence entertainingly?

I'm not saying it's not true....a few of you are probably going to pull out a 2 year old interview where he blatantly states his political stances or something but I just read Fables and didn't really find it to be right wing moreso than any other violent comic book starring libertarian philosophied characters that like to beat up non violent drug offenders...

so....someone wanna explain this one to me?

-T

Okay, just some thing off the top of my head.

1) Death Penalty - Fables avocate the use of the death penalty and have used it twice. Once on the three little pigs and another time on the Trusty John (who actually had deminished capacity on his side). Also the use assassination (Ichabod) on traitorous fables.

2) Pro Life - When Snow White is giving the option of an abortion for her cubs she gives Doctor Swineheart a brow beating about Muddy's wickedness. In addition when Kay confronts Frau about the real way she get power it seem to imply an abortion clinic which is something Fables in general don't approve. At least Kay thinks they won't.

3) Small Gov't - In the beginninig, fabletown has no tax code relying on donation through high class fables. Beyond the mayor, bigby, and King Cole's staff there is no other departments for a gov't. The values seem to say you have to make it on your own. Only the farm recieves any finacial support. Which double as a refuge and a prison.

[drinkblatzbeer]

Unfortunately, that is how things turned out, but the aggressors were actually the arab nations who declared war on Israel.

my favorite part of that was that in the 6 day war, they were attacked, way underestimated took the offense, grabbed a bunch of land and all of the sudden the attackers were like, "hey, no fair, give our land back"...as far as the history of war goes, probably one of the funniest moments...