Why must Justice League be built up, torn down and then rebuilt every few years?

[The Chief5425]

Seriously, I loved Bendis's take on the book. Then he left.

Then Dwayne McDuffie takes over, starts shoehorning in characters nobody cares about (if the Milestone heroes had been popular the first time they never would've been cancelled) and culminates his run with having Black Canary commit domestic violence against Green Arrow (well, he may have done a few more issues after that but I didn't buy them. If it had been the other way around--Ollie punching Dinah--the feminist rage would've been a horror to behold).

But then I pick up the last issue because McDuffie has apparently moved on, Len Wein is writing (an old favorite and I'll always be grateful to him for writing the one Final Crisis tie-in that actually made the whole damn series make some sort of sense) and I like the concept of the Royal Flush gang. I open the book...

And the League seems to consist of Firestorm, Vixen, Red Tornado, the Asian female Dr. Light and Plastic Man.

And it's not the first time DC has stocked this book with characters who look like they've been sent in from a superhero temp service. I took about a 17 year break from buying comics regularly, but I followed things just well enough to know about Justice League Detroit and the Giffen era.

WTH? When will DC realize that the League works best with a classic lineup. Supes, Batman (some Batman, anyway), Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern. Maybe J'onn Jones. Possibly Aquaman. That's all you need. A few others for bells and whistles are fine, but a core team is the only thing that has ever made the book go. How long are they going to keep making the same mistakes?

[Kamanu]

Its pretty hard to use the core team when most of them are otherwise occupied. Everyone, excluding the Flash and Wonderwoman, is either dead, off planet, or babysitting their mentor's son. As far as the rest of the team goes:

Green Lantern: All 4 of them are busy in Blackest Knight

Superman: Is in New Krypton

Martian Manhunter: Dead

Aquaman: Dead

Edit: Forgot Batman

Batman: Babysitting

[ryerye17]

ROFL at "babysitting their mentor's son". made me think though. LOL

[Shellhead]

I can understand why you would get Bendis and Meltzar mixed up. They both write boring, decompressed, pointless team books that show little comprehension of what makes superheroes fun to read. The Great Lightning Saga in particular was atrocious.

Otherwise, good points. I don't think JLA is going to be good again until DC turns a decent writer loose on this title with access to any A- or B-list DC heroes necessary, with almost zero editorial interference. This book should be DC's flagship title, not some sidebar to each event/crisis/reboot/nonsense. I honestly think that the first crucial step will be hiring a new editor-in-chief, because Didio has run this title completely into the ground.

[ryerye17]

WTH? When will DC realize that the League works best with a classic lineup. Supes, Batman (some Batman, anyway), Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern. Maybe J'onn Jones. Possibly Aquaman. That's all you need. A few others for bells and whistles are fine, but a core team is the only thing that has ever made the book go. How long are they going to keep making the same mistakes?


I myself wonder that sometimes.

[Tahko Tetsujin]

I think The Chief is making a common fan mistake, not taking the business end in consideration.

Yes, originally, the JLA was made to have a all star roster but then again most of those heroes didn't have more than one title then per. Now most of the original JLA especially the trinity have multiple titles to their name. They don't need the JLA really.

So what do you do when you have a vehicle like this and the original heroes are all off on their own?

Lemme ask you like this. Do you really believe Booster Gold would have a the role he played in 52 was never in the JLA? If they did it anyway, wouldn't you be all WTF?!

JLA is a good promotional vehicle for b-listers to come into their own. Heck, BG even said that when he was in the JLA.

[Buried Alien]

A few years ago, the Flash (Barry Allen) and Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) were dead, but Batman (Bruce Wayne), Aquaman (Orin), and the Martian Manhunter (J'Onn J'Onzz) were kicking and active in the JLA.

Now, Barry and Hal are improbably back, but Bruce, Orin, and J'Onn are dead or otherwise unavailable.

In all, the ORIGINAL SEVEN from the Silver Age JLA haven't been together in the League since 1982 (when Batman left to found the Outsiders, GL took a leave of absence, and Flash went on trial).

I hope that within a few years, we get to see the Original Seven together as the Justice League of America again.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Reptisaurus!]

Seriously, I loved Bendis's take on the book. Then he left.


Yeah, I imagined I was reading a different comic too when I was reading the first few issues of JLA. It helped me deal with the horribleness.

Then Dwayne McDuffie takes over, starts shoehorning in characters nobody cares about
(if the Milestone heroes had been popular the first time they never would've been cancelled)


Right, because books like Green Lantern, the Flash, the Teen Titants and the X-men, once they have been canceled, will never EVER be popular again. That's logic!

And I admit that I'm a little testy about this because it's been brought up SO many times, but please tell me this isn't a veiled "I don't like black people and I don't appreciate seeing them in my comics" thread.


WTH? When will DC realize that the League works best with a classic lineup. Supes, Batman (some Batman, anyway), Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern. Maybe J'onn Jones. Possibly Aquaman. That's all you need. A few others for bells and whistles are fine, but a core team is the only thing that has ever made the book go. How long are they going to keep making the same mistakes?

It works like this.

Readers like seeing famous characters in their team-books. Superman, Spider-man, Wolverine. Etc.

Readers also like worthwhile and meaningful character and plot development.

And you can't do much in the way of meaningful development with Superman in Justice League, because his JLA appearances are generally considered an ancillary to his own book. Superman, in a shared universe, is tightly controlled by editorial, and JLA writers can't really advance the "Superman" story.

Which is why every. single. version. of every ongoing-series-based superhero team. in EVERY comic shared universe since the '60s has had some title specific non-marquee characters, and that's why the focus is generally placed on the secondary characters. 'Caue you can't do anything of imporatance with the big guns, and the fans are gonna get bored.

[cgill22]

Most of the points here are valid. I agree, why water down the team only to bring it back. That is the business side to generate new sales when other sales are lacking like the business cycle. Now having B list and C list characters, I enjoy because you don't see them very often and is a good vehicle to get them exposure, but it depends on the writers. Some writers can make these characters cool, for example Bendis and Spider-woman or Luke Cage. or Jeff Johns on JSA and him making ridiculus villiams from the 60's cool in GL. I agree the McDuffie JLA was lackluster and because they own the characters to bring them in to try and make them relevant was bad. Static has a future though he did have a cartoon and can fit in with teen titans etc (I don't read that so maybe it doesn't work).

[Beacon]

I can understand why you would get Bendis and Meltzar mixed up. They both write boring, decompressed, pointless team books that show little comprehension of what makes superheroes fun to read. The Great Lightning Saga in particular was atrocious.

Of course Bendis tends to bring back the great characters he pointlessly kills (provided you're willing to wait years for it) so he's really more like Johns than Meltzer.

[The Chief5425]

My apologies, I did indeed get Bendis and Meltzer mixed up. Though for what it's worth I really liked "The Lightning Saga"--had the flavor of the old school summer JLA/JSA crossovers, plus I'm a sucker for the Legion of Super Heroes and seeing the pre-Zero Hour Legion again filled my heart with joy no other comic book development ever could have.

Reptisaurus, we need a corrolary to Godwin's Law, something that states "if any thread goes on long enough somebody will accuse somebody else of racism." Thanks for filling that all-important role. :rolleyes:

I dig the need for the book to be something of a showcase for second string (or lower) characters, which is why you usually have a secondary group along with the frontliners--when I started reading it in the late mid to late '70s we had Zatanna, Elongated Man and Red Tornado along with Supes, Bats, etc, etc. All well and good. But for pity's sake, why excise the first stringers entirely every few years and burn down the title completely? You'd think after three or four times of essentially breaking up Superman, Batman, GL, WW, etc, etc would just say "y,know, this League thing never seems to work very long. Let's just keep each other on speed dial and if we need help, call. Otherwise, let's skip the weekly meetings and sell the satellite to Newscorp or somebody."

[Free-Man]

Reptisaurus, we need a corrolary to Godwin's Law, something that states "if any thread goes on long enough somebody will accuse somebody else of racism."

While I won't accuse you of racism, I still think it's funny how everyone says "Milestone was a failure and has no place in DC."

Tell that to the New Gods, the Charlton Heroes, or even people like Aquaman and Hawkman who still maintain sizable fanbases despite being frequently canceled.

To me, having the JLA fight the Shadow Cabinet was no different from the days when the likes of Ted Kord or Peter Cannon were team members.

[WorstThingUS]

Seriously, I loved Bendis's take on the book. Then he left.

Then I question your love of the JLA, given how much of it was nothing but talking.

Dwayne McDuffie takes over, starts shoehorning in characters nobody cares about (if the Milestone heroes had been popular the first time they never would've been cancelled)

Which means The Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, Firestorm and a host of other character shouldn't be here at all either. Hell, Black Canary has never even been allowed to front a solo title so what's she doing here?

and culminates his run with having Black Canary commit domestic violence against Green Arrow (well, he may have done a few more issues after that but I didn't buy them. If it had been the other way around--Ollie punching Dinah--the feminist rage would've been a horror to behold).

When domestic abuse against men results in the number one cause of death for expectant fathers in this country being murder at the hands of the mother you can try to float that shit.

? When will DC realize that the League works best with a classic lineup. Supes, Batman (some Batman, anyway), Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern. Maybe J'onn Jones. Possibly Aquaman. That's all you need. A few others for bells and whistles are fine, but a core team is the only thing that has ever made the book go. How long are they going to keep making the same mistakes?

There is a precedent for not needing a team filled with A-listers and it was arguably better than most everything since Morrison left:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/giffen.jpg

[The Chief5425]

When domestic abuse against men results in the number one cause of death for expectant fathers in this country being murder at the hands of the mother you can try to float that shit.






Ah. So all of us are victims, but some of us are more victim than others.

[Zero Hunter]

There is a precedent for not needing a team filled with A-listers and it was arguably better than most everything since Morrison left:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/giffen.jpg

I honestly enjoy the book more for the most part when there are only 2 or 3 of the big 7 at one time. It just lets the writers really write when they don't have to wrorry about other writers having first dibs on their characters.

[Slaughter]

I honestly enjoy the book more for the most part when there are only 2 or 3 of the big 7 at one time. It just lets the writers really write when they don't have to wrorry about other writers having first dibs on their characters.

Each "BRING BACK THE BIG SEVEN, JLA ONLY WORKS WITH THEM" post should be answered with a JLI cover. Imagine a world without JLI. BORING, I say.

The DCU would be a overhall poorer, darker place without the JLI. Even goddamned Detroit had their place.

[Thok]

(if the Milestone heroes had been popular the first time they never would've been cancelled)

Milestone was one of several companies hit hard by the post "Death of Superman" speculator crash that claimed much bigger companies than Milestone's line (and nearly claimed Marvel.)

While Milestone almost certainly wasn't as popular as Valiant (which was also swallowed up by the speculator crash), it's seems weird to declare that say, Static wasn't popular given his reasonably well-known cartoon. [/threadjack]

[Babylon23]

This idea that the League should only consist of the "Big 7" is ridiculous. Hell, even Morrison realised this. By issue 9 of his run he'd already brought in Green Arrow, then Aztek, then a whole slew of new characters after Rock of Ages.

IMO, the League works best with a mix of a-listers and minor characters. The JLI showed how well that could work, as did the satellite era of the 70's.

As for why new writers tear JLA down and then rebuild them, it's basically become the norm for new writers on any team book. Hell, it book Bendis 4 whole issues to completely destroy the Avengers. writers these days want to work with their own team rather than just inherit an existing team. At least McDuffie did his best to work with Meltzer's lineup.

[Mister Blisterfists]

It's simple:

Because with the Justice League you have to up the stakes every time. Every threat has to be bigger, and more powerful than the last. Because of that eventually there's nowhere else left to go (Kinda what's happening in Green Lantern now too). So you tear down and start over.

[protonik]

I seem to recall Milestone being fairly popular the first few years and that they were a victim of the industry crash. Hardware was the shizz, Denys Cowan's art really shined on the character. I liked his Deathlok work as well, another great book back then...

[protonik]

Each "BRING BACK THE BIG SEVEN, JLA ONLY WORKS WITH THEM" post should be answered with a JLI cover. Imagine a world without JLI. BORING, I say.

The DCU would be a overhall poorer, darker place without the JLI. Even goddamned Detroit had their place.

I'd also say fer every big 7 arguement point out the Satellite league & the fact that the JLA has never really been the "big 7" except during the G-Mozz years & that only worked with G-Mozz for a few arcs as even he had to bring in other characters over time like Orion, Big Barda, Plastic Man etc. Or the JLU, the best incarnation of the Justice League ever!!! Early on the JLA was bringing in second & third tier character like Green Arrow, Black Canary, Red Tornado, Zatanna, etc.

I tend to think of characters like Hawkman, The Atom, Tornado, Beetle, Booster, etc. as the heart of the league in similar ways to the Vision, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch & Captain America are the heart of the Avengers.

[BTRavage]

Milestone was one of several companies hit hard by the post "Death of Superman" speculator crash that claimed much bigger companies than Milestone's line (and nearly claimed Marvel.)

While Milestone almost certainly wasn't as popular as Valiant (which was also swallowed up by the speculator crash), it's seems weird to declare that say, Static wasn't popular given his reasonably well-known cartoon. [/threadjack]
The number one rated action cartoon for a while IIRC.

[paulski]

This idea that the League should only consist of the "Big 7" is ridiculous. Hell, even Morrison realised this. By issue 9 of his run he'd already brought in Green Arrow, then Aztek, then a whole slew of new characters after Rock of Ages.

...even though it still featured all of the Big 7 as well. Don't forget that - for every Barda, Orion or Atzek on the team, there was still a Superman, Batman, Flash and Green Lantern.

Seriously, I have no problem with some B or even C-list characters joining the team - I like most of the 'Cry For Justice' team - but you've got to have a core team of at least some of the big guns. It just doesn't interest fandom in general if it doesn't, and sales suffer as a result. It shows at the moment - no one cares about Vixen, Dr Light, Firestorm and Zatanna. Not if they're the only ones in the book. They WANT the big guys.

DC are starting to rectify that by putting Hal, Dick and Donna (and maybe Barry Allen?) on the book in a few months, but I'm still a little wary of how they're going to fill the remaining seats.

[dumbstruck]

Readers also like worthwhile and meaningful character and plot development.

And you can't do much in the way of meaningful development with Superman in Justice League, because his JLA appearances are generally considered an ancillary to his own book. Superman, in a shared universe, is tightly controlled by editorial, and JLA writers can't really advance the "Superman" story.

Which is why every. single. version. of every ongoing-series-based superhero team. in EVERY comic shared universe since the '60s has had some title specific non-marquee characters, and that's why the focus is generally placed on the secondary characters. 'Caue you can't do anything of imporatance with the big guns, and the fans are gonna get bored.


I have to disagree with this to an extent. Have you forgotten Morrison's JLA? There was no real "character development" during his run, yet it's considered one of, if not the best JLA era. At the end of the day, JLA needs to be about superheroes saving the world. As long as you have that, and it's written well, you don't necessarily need meaningful character development.

[ryerye17]

I support Big Seven. Frankly, we need a team that just screams "WE ARE YOUR GODS."

Titans, Doom Patrol, Teen Titans, JSA and the current version of the JLA isn't THAT powerful and imopsing.

Kal-El. Bruce Wayne. Diana. Hal Jordan/Kyle Rayner. Barry Allen/Wally West. Arthur Curry.*J'onn J'onzz.

Criminals will fear their names

[Bob Violence]

I can understand why you would get Bendis and Meltzar mixed up. They both write boring, decompressed, pointless team books that show little comprehension of what makes superheroes fun to read. The Great Lightning Saga in particular was atrocious.

Otherwise, good points. I don't think JLA is going to be good again until DC turns a decent writer loose on this title with access to any A- or B-list DC heroes necessary, with almost zero editorial interference. This book should be DC's flagship title, not some sidebar to each event/crisis/reboot/nonsense. I honestly think that the first crucial step will be hiring a new editor-in-chief, because Didio has run this title completely into the ground.
I think you've put your finger on it, DC has no idea what to do with this title. They need to give it to someone like Gail Simone and say
"Knock yourself out" instead of what they did to Dwayne McDuffie. Consistency is very important to the JLA, since most of the characters only appear there. The big five (Supes, Bats, Flash, GL, WW) should be mostly there, but we know them. It's characters like the Atom, J'onn J'onz or Firestorm that need the consistency, they don't have their own books.
I'd like to see the big 5 as a presence in the book, but all of them don't need to be on board for every mission, but when it's major, they have got to be there.

Ripping the team down/building the team up is filler. Takes up a lot of time and space.

[carabas]

There are several problems with the Magnificent Seven line-up.

- Not every writer is qualified to write them or can come up with more than one or two interssting stories for such a potent group.
- Most of these characters have their own books in which their own stories take place. This makes doing personal stories hard or even impossible. Even Morrioson couldn't crack this one. Compare for instance the far more character driven JSA.
- When your cast includes Batman, Superman a,d Wonder Woman, every single aspect of your stories is going to be micro-managed to death by editorial.

As for "Why must Justice League be built up, torn down and then rebuilt every few years? "
Same reason almost every single other team out there goes through this every few years. Get new readers.

[randomengine]

Make a JLA title in the vein of Superman Batman, problem solved.

I know we had JLA Classified for a while, but it was competing with a relaunched JLA with major characters, so it didn't fare well. If they are going to make JLA the scrub league, then have a JLA Classified to replace it.

[Typo Lad]

In all, the ORIGINAL SEVEN from the Silver Age JLA haven't been together in the League since 1982 (when Batman left to found the Outsiders, GL took a leave of absence, and Flash went on trial).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Earlier than that, BA. J'onn left pre-Outsiders.

[Spiffy]

How about "Why must Teen Titans be built up, torn down and then rebuilt every few ISSUES?"

[KET]

How about "Why must Teen Titans be built up, torn down and then rebuilt every few ISSUES?"


Why bother with that, when the real question is, "Why must DC keep flogging the TEEN TITANS brand to death, when it already knows that the heyday of the Wolfman/Perez era will never come back?"

Long past time to bury this carcass. At least JLA is a brand name worth saving.

[wolvie616]

it depends, who is going to be on the new team?

[Samy]

At least JLA is a brand name worth saving.
So is Titans.

If DC chose to abandon all brands of Titans level and smaller, they'd have about three brands left.

[bongoes]

I hope that within a few years, we get to see the Original Seven together as the Justice League of America again.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I hope the end of Morrison's big Batman story ends with him writing JLA with the original big seven.

[carabas]

So is Titans.

If DC chose to abandon all brands of Titans level and smaller, they'd have about three brands left.At this point, the best way to save this particular brand is to let it hibernate for a few years and then try again with a proper A-list creative team.

Right now, those two books have zero cerdibility, no matter who you put on them.

[Samy]

I don't think hibernation is absolutely necessary, but these D-tier creative teams aren't doing anybody any favors and if they can't put at least B-list talent on the books, then hibernation might be the better choice.

[AdamYJ]

I have to disagree with this to an extent. Have you forgotten Morrison's JLA? There was no real "character development" during his run, yet it's considered one of, if not the best JLA era. At the end of the day, JLA needs to be about superheroes saving the world. As long as you have that, and it's written well, you don't necessarily need meaningful character development.

Yeah, but only Grant Morrison can really get away with going light on character. I mean, not writing character stuff is okay if you're good at writing humongous, crazy sci-fi stuff. With the exception of a few writers from across the pond, there aren't a lot who can really excel at that.

To tell you the truth, that stuff isn't good for all readers either. I own three trades of Morrison's JLA and I'm not entirely sure what he was doing with some of that stuff. :confused:

[DonEMC]

A good writer and good artist made the NEW X-Men a top-selling book WITHOUT any of the top characters from Marvel way back in 1975...
I don't see the absolute need for the top tier characters to be in the JLA. I just think writers are too concerned with making the JLA their own version of the JLA and so they figure "Hmmmm... I'll tear the team down to remake it in my own image..." and it never works.
I didn't like McDuffie's version of the JLA. I didn't like Bob Harras' version of the JLA. I didn't like most of the versions of the JLA after the original run ended -- except the early Giffen/DeMatteis/Maguire JLI. For me, Meltzer's JLA was alright. I thought it dragged on a little too long, but it was good, solid storytelling.
Then, when McDuffie took over, he filled the book with his favorite characters and scuttled what Meltzer was doing with Red Tornado and the other characters and he tried to do his version of a big epic with the Secret Society of Super-Villains and it never worked for me.
I wish there were more writers like Gerry Conway and Steve Englehart, who wrote really enjoyable JLA comic book stories that sold well and their most popular work didn't have the team disbanding every six issues (when Conway did deconstruct the team, it didn't work and ended with the end of the original JLA, even though I found the JLA Detroit a lot of fun and very entertaining).

[Buried Alien]

Earlier than that, BA. J'onn left pre-Outsiders.

You're right. In fact, J'Onn skipped practically the entire decade of the 1970s in the League (although he did show up for # 200 in...1980?).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[BYC]

I think you've put your finger on it, DC has no idea what to do with this title. They need to give it to someone like Gail Simone and say
"Knock yourself out" instead of what they did to Dwayne McDuffie.

God no. Gail is horribly out of place when the power levels are turned up. She does small talk really well, but I strongly dislike her serious moments.

[Reptisaurus!]

I have to disagree with this to an extent. Have you forgotten Morrison's JLA? There was no real "character development" during his run, yet it's considered one of, if not the best JLA era. At the end of the day, JLA needs to be about superheroes saving the world. As long as you have that, and it's written well, you don't necessarily need meaningful character development.

I'm gonna nitpick "no real."

It was subtle, and it was certainly downplayed compared to Metzler or Conway or Engelhart or... OK, every other post-Gardner Fox JLA writer...

But there were very specific and unique character arcs for Green Lantern*, the Huntress, a little bit with Zauriel, ('specially if we count the spin-off mini-series by Mark Millar) and there was some philosophical development (but not really "character") for Superman and, I think, Batman. (And possibly the human race as a whole.)

And you know Morrison had these huge-long epiclly developed character arcs planned for each of his supporting characters. He just didn't have time to squeeze 'em in.

* I'm not sure how he got away with this, and it probably should have been nixed by editorial since GL had his own book at the time.

[Dwayne McDuffie]

Then, when McDuffie took over, he filled the book with his favorite characters and scuttled what Meltzer was doing with Red Tornado and the other characters and he tried to do his version of a big epic with the Secret Society of Super-Villains and it never worked for me.

I may have mentioned this before: I didn't choose a single member of the Justice League during my tenure on the book, much less filling it with my "favorite characters." I was forced to do the Red Tornado Arc and my Injustice League arc was taken out of my hands three issues into it.

[Free-Man]

I may have mentioned this before: I didn't choose a single member of the Justice League during my tenure on the book, much less filling it with my "favorite characters." I was forced to do the Red Tornado Arc and my Injustice League arc was taken out of my hands three issues into it.

Mr. Mcduffie, this is a messgae board. This is no place for facts.:tongue:

[AdamYJ]

I may have mentioned this before: I didn't choose a single member of the Justice League during my tenure on the book,

Really? :confused: Not even Firestorm?

[Dwayne McDuffie]

Really? :confused: Not even Firestorm?

Nope, Firestorm was chosen to join the League before I was hired. I was told he was going to be on the League "soon," way back when I took the job of wrapping up his solo series.

[Bob Violence]

I may have mentioned this before: I didn't choose a single member of the Justice League during my tenure on the book, much less filling it with my "favorite characters." I was forced to do the Red Tornado Arc and my Injustice League arc was taken out of my hands three issues into it.

I've read your comments about your JLA run before, and I am puzzled. What makes JLA such a blindspot for DC editorial? It seems like if they did the stuff to the Superman or Batman books that they did to JLA, people would be pissed.

[jv2k]

Ah. So all of us are victims, but some of us are more victim than others.
Because contrary to the PC belief your average man is able to over power the average woman(quite easily too). Yes in comic land where a 13 small year old boy can knock out full grown men with one punch there technically shouldn't be an issue with Black Canary getting punched in the face by her weaker not-as-capable-as-a-fighter husband, but it still leaves a bad taste in readers' mouths.

How about "Why must Teen Titans be built up, torn down and then rebuilt every few ISSUES?"
Because ever since Kon and Bart left the book has been on a chain reaction of gaining and losing characters. Johns last whole written story arc left things stable enough to keep a solid team but the next couple writers and editorial mandates kept screwing the characters over.

Then Mckeever took over and left the book with a stable lineup only to have Bart and Kon come back from the dead and rejoin the team again.

[protonik]

Can someone tell me how Mar-vell is a SHazam rip off?

[pariah-1972]

I guess since Dc and Didio have no clue what to do with Justice League they just keep breaking them up and putting them back together to drum up interest.

Personally i could care less about most of the big big names in a Justice League book since most of their character development is gonna happen in there own books.

And since i loved Detroit League i would prefer to see a Justice :League that mostly consists of characters who don't currently have there own book so they can get more exposure and fans.

[dupersuper]

Hell, Black Canary has never even been allowed to front a solo title


Actually, yes she did; in the 90's.

[dupersuper]

Hell, Black Canary has never even been allowed to front a solo title


Actually, yes she did; in the 90's.

[Shellhead]

Can someone tell me how Mar-vell is a SHazam rip off?

Yes, in that other thread.

[dumbstruck]

I'm gonna nitpick "no real."

It was subtle, and it was certainly downplayed compared to Metzler or Conway or Engelhart or... OK, every other post-Gardner Fox JLA writer...

But there were very specific and unique character arcs for Green Lantern*, the Huntress, a little bit with Zauriel, ('specially if we count the spin-off mini-series by Mark Millar) and there was some philosophical development (but not really "character") for Superman and, I think, Batman. (And possibly the human race as a whole.)

And you know Morrison had these huge-long epiclly developed character arcs planned for each of his supporting characters. He just didn't have time to squeeze 'em in.

* I'm not sure how he got away with this, and it probably should have been nixed by editorial since GL had his own book at the time.


Perhaps I should clarify. I understood the original poster to want story arcs or issues devoted to character developement. While GM did have character moments sprinkled throughout, his stories weren't based around character development. They were based on superheroes saving the world. That's what I meant when I said no real character development.

[dumbstruck]

Yeah, but only Grant Morrison can really get away with going light on character. I mean, not writing character stuff is okay if you're good at writing humongous, crazy sci-fi stuff. With the exception of a few writers from across the pond, there aren't a lot who can really excel at that.



There may not be a lot of suitable writers around, but to say GM is the only one who can get away with it is dumb. What it would really take is for editorial to take a largely hands-off approach. Given the right lineup, I think Dan Jurgens could do it. I've found his writing always tended to the superheroics. Not to say he can't write great character stuff too. He does. I loved his Metropolis Mailbag stories every Christmas in the superman books. And he's written JL before. It's just he was saddled with a lot of lame characters.

[titanfan]

I've read your comments about your JLA run before, and I am puzzled. What makes JLA such a blindspot for DC editorial? It seems like if they did the stuff to the Superman or Batman books that they did to JLA, people would be pissed.

I suspect there is meddling with Superman/Batman books but it's not like they can take the main characters out of the book.

With JLA, it seems the problem is that:
- All of the big name characters belong to other books.
- The company uses the title to "push" characters it wants to bring to prominence.

As long as I can remember, they've been meddling with JLA. The Satellite Leagues and JLI eventually were able to "settle" on characters who didn't have a home base elsewhere. Had he been given time, it seems like the most recent run of JLA would have settled there too.

[BYC]

I've read your comments about your JLA run before, and I am puzzled. What makes JLA such a blindspot for DC editorial? It seems like if they did the stuff to the Superman or Batman books that they did to JLA, people would be pissed.
I think it's because JLA is only implied to have the big guns of DC, but not required. People go into it expecting action and lots of cool or fun things, generally with big names, but smaller names with chemistry works as well.

As for the Superman titles right now, Superman and Action seem to be faltering from the lack of Superman. Those titles we know are implied to have Superman in it, and his long term absence is starting to show. I enjoy SuperMON, but Action is really tedious right now.

[lead sharp]

JLA with the Big Seven isn't about character work, it's about spectacle, grandeur amazement, hi concept brain bursting from Grant Morrison.

When it's the Little League it's about character and plot and all the dynamics of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Which would you rather have? Which do you think would last longer? Which do you think would burn up concepts faster than a pyromaniac in a fireworks factory?

In fact the only thing the JLA should have that's consistent is EPICNESS not sure if that's a word but it deserves the capitals for what the JLA should be. There is NOTHING (also deserving of the capitals) epic about what's being written at the moment. It reads like someone was beating the keyboard with their forehead because they hug themselves too much.

Instead of trying to tell stories of the Big Seven all together, try and create a new Big Seven that deserve to stand alongside the originals.

Hmmm...

[Shaka]

Why can't they do what Marvel does with the Avengers and just ignore continuity until it's conveniet? Ms. Marvel is dead in her own solo title? Who cares... What do you mean Spider-Man made a deal with the devil? Our title hasn't caught up to it yet!

[Vic Vega]

Why can't they do what Marvel does with the Avengers and just ignore continuity until it's conveniet? Ms. Marvel is dead in her own solo title? Who cares... What do you mean Spider-Man made a deal with the devil? Our title hasn't caught up to it yet!

DC fans tend to be more critical about that kind of stuff than Marvel fans.

[Superbeast]

I do think the idea of a large league works well. I understand editorial edicts might take a character out of play for a while. but that's why I think a large league would work well and did work when Morrison wrote JLA. Superman's not available? Why not call in Captain Marvel? Need a warrior who can lead and Wonder Woman is AWOL? Call in Orion or Aquaman. Hell, they share the same base of operations and JLA appeared to work together with the JSA during Lightning Saga and the One World Under Gog story, why not trade members occasionally if the situation requires it? Why can only GL at a time be a JLA member, why can't they all be reserve members, Allan Scott included? Alternatively you can set up stories like the Green Arrow/Key story where a reserve member might turn up for an induction/initiation only to be thrown headfirst into a A list crisis because, well, that's what the JLA do.

I personally think a JLU sort of set up where there is a core line up with other heroes on call depending on the situation would work fine. It would allow them to work around editorial edicts or continuity issues a lot easier.

[titanfan]

And he's written JL before. It's just he was saddled with a lot of lame characters.

Jurgen's Superman-centric JLA started off very well, and then Superman died and his vision for the JL floundered shortly after. (You can say editorial edicts on that one but he was also the one who was in charge of Supes' death, so....)

Even the Morrison JLA had to deal with Editorial/Other events getting in the way. Remember the silly Electric Superman thing was going on at the same time, Diana died, Huntress got pulled, etc.

[bannermanonemillion]

I wouldn't mind seeing a JLA roster with a mix of big guns and 2nd/3rd stringers and MAKE IT STICK. At least for a while. I can't get into JLA right now because even if I like the story I just know members are gonna get tossed to the side or replaced due to editorial demands or because a lot of characters are all wrapped up in something else and aren't available. I say take a few characters that NO ONE is using right now, put them in the JLA and keep them there. Let the writer fall in love with them and the CMOAs* will start flowing.

*http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SugarWiki/CrowningMomentOfAwesome?from=Main.CrowningMomentOf Awesome