With the infusion of Milestone and Red Circle, who is the _______est in the DCU?

[galactica]

Who is the smartest, fastest, strongest? Who is the most powerful telepath or telekinetic? Who is the best martial artist or the best tactician?

[CBikle]

Don't forget about T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents being added as well (technically, I think they have the same responsibilities as CHECKMATE.)

[BigMike20X6]

The ultimate badass in DC comics will always be... Johnny DC.

http://i28.tinypic.com/2cxzy8g.jpg

[galactica]

Don't forget about T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents being added as well (technically, I think they have the same responsibilities as CHECKMATE.)

You're right. I think making THUNDER Agents a part of Checkmate would be a great way to add them to the DCU.

[Pól Rua]

I love how DC has these 52 alternate worlds and seems terrified of using them, except as throwaway cannon fodder.

[Xero]

People always forget that DC Comics gained control over many of the classic British superheroes when Time Warner bought IPC Media.

That means they can at any time introduce UK heroes like Tri-Man (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/t/triman.htm), Dolmann (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/d/dolmann.htm), the Spider (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/spider.htm), Steel Claw (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/stclaw.htm), Robot Archie (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/a/archie.htm), Tim Kelly (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/k/kellyeye.htm), Mytek the Mighty (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/m/mytek.htm), Captain Hurricane (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/c/caphurr.htm), Doctor Sin (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/d/docsin.htm), Cat Girl (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/c/catgirl.htm), Steel Commando (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/stelcomm.htm), Gadget Man & Gimmick Kid (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/g/gadgman.htm), Justine (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/j/justjust.htm), The Phantom Viking (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/p/phantvik.htm), the Amazing Three (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/a/amazing3.htm), and Thunderbolt Jaxon (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/j/jaxon.htm) into the mainstream DC Universe.

[joao_miranda]

People always forget that DC Comics gained control over many of the classic British superheroes when Time Warner bought IPC Media.

That means they can at any time introduce UK heroes like Tri-Man (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/t/triman.htm), Dolmann (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/d/dolmann.htm), the Spider (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/spider.htm), Steel Claw (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/stclaw.htm), Robot Archie (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/a/archie.htm), Tim Kelly (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/k/kellyeye.htm), Mytek the Mighty (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/m/mytek.htm), Captain Hurricane (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/c/caphurr.htm), Doctor Sin (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/d/docsin.htm), Cat Girl (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/c/catgirl.htm), Steel Commando (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/stelcomm.htm), Gadget Man & Gimmick Kid (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/g/gadgman.htm), Justine (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/j/justjust.htm), The Phantom Viking (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/p/phantvik.htm), the Amazing Three (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/a/amazing3.htm), and Thunderbolt Jaxon (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/j/jaxon.htm) into the mainstream DC Universe.

I think all of those characters are in public domain. At least, Alan Moore use them in "Albion".

[Typo Lad]

I love how DC has these 52 alternate worlds and seems terrified of using them, except as throwaway cannon fodder.

But... but... then they wouldn't count, you see!

[K-DoG7p7]

I think all of those characters are in public domain. At least, Alan Moore use them in "Albion".

"Albion" was published by Wildstorm.. and Wildstorm is a part of DC ..

[joao_miranda]

"Albion" was published by Wildstorm.. and Wildstorm is a part of DC ..

I know, but I remember reading that the characters in question were used by Moore because they were old public domain British character that he wanted to revive, like he did with the Nedor Comics characters in Terra Obscura.

And think about it, if the characters were DC's proprety don't you think that one of the ton of British writers that worked for DC would have tried to do something with them?

[Free-Man]

I love how DC has these 52 alternate worlds and seems terrified of using them, except as throwaway cannon fodder.

I agree too. There are certain characters like Static, or Captain Atom, or maybe even Shazam who have unique gifts to offer the DCU, but a good deal of them (cough. Ted Kord.) should be regulated to the Multiverse.

[galactica]

So....anyone want to discus the topic at hand? I'm wondering because I read a post by Dwayne McDuffie where he said Hardware is only slightly below Mr. Fantastic and would match him if he wasn't so focused on cybernetics. So I'm wondering if some of these new-to-the-DCU characters can claim the top spot in anything?

[joao_miranda]

I agree too. There are certain characters like Static, or Captain Atom, or maybe even Shazam who have unique gifts to offer the DCU, but a good deal of them (cough. Ted Kord.) should be regulated to the Multiverse.

Why Ted Kord? I think he works amazingly well in the DCU.

[Free-Man]

Why Ted Kord? I think he works amazingly well in the DCU.

HE certainly has his fans, but when you take away the jokes and personality, how is he any different from Batman? Or Green Arrow?

[galactica]

HE certainly has his fans, but when you take away the jokes and personality, how is he any different from Batman? Or Green Arrow?

But why take away his jokes and personality. I think there are very very few characters who "need" their own universe. I think most just need breathing space, probably in the form of a city or even a country. I've heard people say Captain Marvel needs his own Earth because he has to be the biggest guy in the world. I think Captain Marvel just needs to be the biggest baddest guy in Fawcett City. Ted Kord really doesn't have much of a problem unless you set him in Gotham City or Star City and even then he can still work out.

[joao_miranda]

HE certainly has his fans, but when you take away the jokes and personality, how is he any different from Batman? Or Green Arrow?

His personality is what makes him different from Batman and Green Arrow. Why should we take that away from him, if it's the best he has?

[Typo Lad]

He also is unique in that he's not driven by tragedy (Batman) or boredom (early GA) or some kind of social agenda (modern GA). He's just a guy who wants to live up to hs mentor's legend.

[CBikle]

HE certainly has his fans, but when you take away the jokes and personality, how is he any different from Batman? Or Green Arrow?

Well:

1 Blue Beetle has a more acrobatic fighting style than those two (closer to Spider Man's actually, which makes sense since both were drawn by Steve Ditko)

2 BB has "Bug", an advanced hovercraft that he would rappel and swing from (BB might be the first superhero to regularly incorporate his trademark vehicle in combat).

3 BB uses a (non-lethal) gun and this was considered unusual for silver-age superheroes.

These bullet-points only refer to the Charlton era.

[Xero]

I know, but I remember reading that the characters in question were used by Moore because they were old public domain British character that he wanted to revive, like he did with the Nedor Comics characters in Terra Obscura.

And think about it, if the characters were DC's proprety don't you think that one of the ton of British writers that worked for DC would have tried to do something with them?

Hey there Joao, DC's parent company owns them which is why the Albion series was possible. None of them are in the public domain because they were created in the 1960's. So basically DC does own them, and I'd like to see them in the mainstream universe being handled by someone like Paul Cornell.

[CBikle]

I thought that the THUNDER Agents were in public domain, but I guess that's, thankfully, not the case

[joao_miranda]

Hey there Joao, DC's parent company owns them which is why the Albion series was possible. None of them are in the public domain because they were created in the 1960's. So basically DC does own them, and I'd like to see them in the mainstream universe being handled by someone like Paul Cornell.

Then I must have misunterstood. You're right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion_(comics)

In that case, it would be very cool to have them in the DCU. DC has very few non-american heroes. I'm portuguese (not asking for a hero from my country. Altough I wouldn't be sad if they did one), but I think that they should show more international heroes. The JLA is not always there. And if they already have this ones, just do it.

I also would like to see some Hannah-Barbera characters in the DCU, like Space Ghost and the ones invented for Superfriends (don't know any of the others). Of course they would need to be revamped like Space Ghost was.

[Pól Rua]

I guess I'm just sick of this whole 'Department of Redundancy Department' DC has going on.
I mean, what point is it being Captain Atom, Captain Marvel or Icon on a world where Superman lives?
All three of these characters are 'The Big, Powerful, Iconic Superhero' on their own world, but end up as inferior johnny-come-latelies in the DCU.
I think Hardware's a humdinger of a character, but what does he bring to the DCU that Mister Terrific or Steel don't?
Ditto The Hangman and The Spectre.
On their own world, they'd have a role to play and a part in an ecosystem of sorts, but crammed into the DCU, they end up looking like the USAgents, Scarlet Spiders and Thunderstrikes of the DCU.

[galactica]

I guess I'm just sick of this whole 'Department of Redundancy Department' DC has going on.
I mean, what point is it being Captain Atom, Captain Marvel or Icon on a world where Superman lives?
All three of these characters are 'The Big, Powerful, Iconic Superhero' on their own world, but end up as inferior johnny-come-latelies in the DCU.
I think Hardware's a humdinger of a character, but what does he bring to the DCU that Mister Terrific or Steel don't?
Ditto The Hangman and The Spectre.
On their own world, they'd have a role to play and a part in an ecosystem of sorts, but crammed into the DCU, they end up looking like the USAgents, Scarlet Spiders and Thunderstrikes of the DCU.

I disagree. Captain Atom, Captain Marvel and Icon are very different characters and all of them can be "The Big, Powerful, Iconic Superhero" even in the DCU. None of them are going to be as big as Superman but very few characters are as big as Superman( and I mean characters. Not just superheroes but fictional characters in general). And they do not need to be.

Icon just has to be the "The Big, Powerful, Iconic Superhero" in Dakota or whatever city he is based in. Captain Marvel just has to be the big "The Big, Powerful, Iconic Superhero" in Fawcett City.

All of these characters are very different. Icon came to Earth as a adult in the pre-Civil War South. Captain Atom is a military officer, Cap. Marvel is a kid with the powers of 7 gods. I think the problem with these characters only arises when writers write them as Superman. They are not Superman and I think as long as writers remember that they can co-exist.

[Pól Rua]

I disagree. Captain Atom, Captain Marvel and Icon are very different characters and all of them can be "The Big, Powerful, Iconic Superhero" even in the DCU. None of them are going to be as big as Superman but very few characters are as big as Superman( and I mean characters. Not just superheroes but fictional characters in general). And they do not need to be.

Icon just has to be the "The Big, Powerful, Iconic Superhero" in Dakota or whatever city he is based in. Captain Marvel just has to be the big "The Big, Powerful, Iconic Superhero" in Fawcett City.

All of these characters are very different. Icon came to Earth as a adult in the pre-Civil War South. Captain Atom is a military officer, Cap. Marvel is a kid with the powers of 7 gods. I think the problem with these characters only arises when writers write them as Superman. They are not Superman and I think as long as writers remember that they can co-exist.

Right, so it's not at all a come-down to go from being 'The World's Most Powerful And Prominent Superhero' to 'Des Moines' Most Powerful Superhero'?
Whether or not they have cosmetic differences or not, each character fills the same role in their own 'universe'.
They're the archtype, the icon, the paragon. They're the Big Superhero.
And transforming them from that to 'neighbourhood watch'... I dunno...

[Will.S]

It wouldn't be a bad idea to leave the Red Circle/Milestone characters in their own earth but it seems like from a sales perspective selling these superheroes as alternate earth characters won't do as well unless its in the DCU proper.

[galactica]

Right, so it's not at all a come-down to go from being 'The World's Most Powerful And Prominent Superhero' to 'Des Moines' Most Powerful Superhero'?
Whether or not they have cosmetic differences or not, each character fills the same role in their own 'universe'.
They're the archtype, the icon, the paragon. They're the Big Superhero.
And transforming them from that to 'neighbourhood watch'... I dunno...

They don't have cosmetic differences, if anything they have cosmetic similarities. And they don't need to be World's most powerful, even Superman isn't the most powerful superhero on Earth and he certainly isn't the most power being on Earth. What about Icon requires him to be THE most powerful person on Earth? What can you do with him as the most powerful people on Earth that you can't do as one of the most powerful powerful people on Earth.

By line of thinking should Green Arrow get his own Earth? What about Daredevil, Captain America, Iron Fist, Black Widow, etc etc? Should each have their own Earth? They don't even have their own city.

[TROUBLEZ]

By line of thinking should Green Arrow get his own Earth? What about Daredevil, Captain America, Iron Fist, Black Widow, etc etc? Should each have their own Earth? They don't even have their own city.


I agree with Pól Rua.

None of the characters you mentioned are Superman archetypes.

Plus, they dont' work too well because they're not really any kind of archetypes at all, cept for Cap.

And Captain America wouldn't work as well if his universe was crowded with Captain Glory, The Sheild, and Fighting American.

[Typo Lad]

I guess I'm just sick of this whole 'Department of Redundancy Department' DC has going on.
I mean, what point is it being Captain Atom, Captain Marvel or Icon on a world where Superman lives?
All three of these characters are 'The Big, Powerful, Iconic Superhero' on their own world, but end up as inferior johnny-come-latelies in the DCU.
I think Hardware's a humdinger of a character, but what does he bring to the DCU that Mister Terrific or Steel don't?
Ditto The Hangman and The Spectre.
On their own world, they'd have a role to play and a part in an ecosystem of sorts, but crammed into the DCU, they end up looking like the USAgents, Scarlet Spiders and Thunderstrikes of the DCU.

Agreed. The whole fun of a multiverse should be giving characters from old companies their own playgrounds.

But no, because then we can't establish that no matter HOW AWESOME Captain Marvel or Icon might be, Superman could still wupp 'em.

[Pól Rua]

By line of thinking should Green Arrow get his own Earth?
He definitely shouldn't be on the same Earth as Hawkeye.
What about Daredevil...?
I wouldn't put him on the same Earth as Doctor Mid-Nite.

The difference is the characters were created as 'The Most Powerful Superhero In The World' and then were shoe-horned into another world where someone else already (and indisputedly) has that job.
The inevitable result of this is that you end up with a bunch of redundant characters who end up adding nothing and being diminished in the same stroke.

On your own world, you're 'The World's Mightiest Mortal', suddenly, on DC-Earth, you're 'The Diet Coke of Superman' - "Not quite Superman enough..."

[Munkiman]

Whether or not Icon or Captains Marvel and Atom are the biggest, bestest heroes on the block doesn't seem to me like it matters that much. Even if they might be considered second best to Superman in the DCU (and they always will be to the general public, but then the general public probably doesn't know who Captain Atom is, or Captain Marvel, and certainly not Icon), they're still all definitely in the highest tier of superheroes.

I think the majority of villains would be wetting themselves just as much if Captain Atom showed up to defeat them as they would be if it were Superman.

[TROUBLEZ]

I think the majority of villains would be wetting themselves just as much if Captain Atom showed up to defeat them as they would be if it were Superman.

I never considered Captain Atom the highest tier. He might be portrayed that way in regards to his powers but I always considered him some extra from JLE. They really should have went back to the multiverse and seperated all these characters.

[Munkiman]

I never considered Captain Atom the highest tier. He might be portrayed that way in regards to his powers but I always considered him some extra from JLE. They really should have went back to the multiverse and seperated all these characters.

I'll admit my main experience with Captain Atom is through JLU, so I don't really know how he's usually portrayed in the comics, but you can't deny that he's very powerful. I mean, from what I understand he's practically as invulnerable as Superman.

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