First page of Cry For Justice #2 for BoP readers.

[galactica]

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2009/07/jlacj_2_dylux-1-copy.jpg

So............

[Corrina]

:::sigh::::

It's funny but I don't see either Huntress or Zinda going for any kind of threesome situation.

I can't see Huntress having any interest in Hal at all.

Zinda, yes. He's a flyboy. I'm assuming that she likes and understands flyboys.

Maybe they were just trying to outdrink each other. And Hal doesn't want to admit that Zinda won. :)

[Free-Man]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/Jesus_facepalm.jpg

[Infra-Man]

But I have to know: are they going to yell "Justice" a lot in this issue?

[galactica]

But I have to know: are they going to yell "Justice" a lot in this issue?

From the preview we already have two mentions of Justice but they weren't yelled.

I'm actually glad the heroes of the DCU hook up with each other on occasion. There's a trend of making every relationship in the DCU soul mates type of thing. Do I believe Huntress and Lady Blackhawk would sleep with Hal at the same time? Not really. However I can see a scenario where after one of those George Perez type fit-every-hero-you-know-on-the-double-page-splash-fights they go to a bar for a few hours, go back to someone's place, get even more drunk and wake up the next morning naked and with a bad hangover. You know, I can imagine.

[BnL]

Wow, what a stud the writer--er, I mean Hal is. Hal. Not the writer. The writer who is totally NOT using Hal as a proxy for his lame fantasies at the expense of two kickass female heroes.

Gross.

[galactica]

Wow, what a stud the writer--er, I mean Hal is. Hal. Not the writer. The writer who is totally NOT using Hal as a proxy for his lame fantasies at the expense of two kickass female heroes.

Gross.

What, two kick-ass female heroes can't have casual sex?

Besides Robinson says Geoff Johns is Hal and he is Ollie.

[kid_mash]

HA! Love it! :-)

[TCJohnson]

What, two kick-ass female heroes can't have casual sex?

Besides Robinson says Geoff Johns is Hal and he is Ollie.

Huntress did have casual sex...with Josh....before Hal came back. And she vowed never to do it again because it was one of the low points in her life.

[AndrewCrossett]

They really should leave this kind of thing to the fanficcers. (They do it much better.)

[kid_mash]

Huntress did have casual sex...with Josh....before Hal came back. And she vowed never to do it again because it was one of the low points in her life.

Dude i've lost count of the amount of times i've vowed never to do somthing again and done it anyway. Hell, i've lost count of the times ive vowed never to sleep whith guys called Josh again and done it anyway. :biggrin:

[Infra-Man]

From the preview we already have two mentions of Justice but they weren't yelled.

"JUSTICE!!!!"

[FemGeek]

Oh. Umm, ew?
What a horrid fanboy moment.

[spark627]

Oh. Umm, ew?
What a horrid fanboy moment.

This series seems to be written by a fanboy in general.


JUSTICE!!!!!!!!!!!

[Free-Man]

Oh. Umm, ew?
What a horrid fanboy moment.

Yeah, that is total shit. Way to go Robinson. Well, at least he isn't having them get raped, I guess...

[Corrina]

The other question is:

Would Dinah tell Ollie?

[spark627]

Yeah, that is total shit. Way to go Robinson. Well, at least he isn't having them get raped, I guess...

Yea, I don't like this. BOP was so great and really developed these friendships... why does it have to become a Penthouse letter?

[Flamebird]

:::sigh::::

It's funny but I don't see either Huntress or Zinda going for any kind of threesome situation.

I can't see Huntress having any interest in Hal at all.

Zinda, yes. He's a flyboy. I'm assuming that she likes and understands flyboys.

Maybe they were just trying to outdrink each other. And Hal doesn't want to admit that Zinda won. :)

This. Only thing that would make it bearable.

[kid_mash]

Jesus talk about overreaction. Anyway they only made out, as we all know DC superheroes all have Barbie crotch. Well apart from Citizen Steell...WOOF. :tongue:

[spark627]

Jesus talk about overreaction. Anyway they only made out, as we all know DC superheroes all have Barbie crotch. Well apart from Citizen Steell...WOOF. :tongue:

I don't think it is an overreaction to be annoyed that strong, well developed women are turned into sex objects. As if we need female sex objects in comics!

[OzBat!]

for such an event to be that well known, I'm guessing it was more like a game of cards egged on to strip poker proportions under the influence of drink, but not much more than that. Huntress would probably kill anybody who knew if it was something more!

[AndrewCrossett]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I never really saw this kind of thing as a likely part of Zinda's personality. This is the woman who, when Huntress and Judomaster were cracking jokes about Barda's "mighty rod," said something like, "You know it's dirty if even I know what you're talking about."

Zinda+Hal, maybe. Zinda+Hal+Huntress? Hard to see.

[Charles RB]

So I'm in the minority for thinking that was a bit funny?

[Jeremi]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I never really saw this kind of thing as a likely part of Zinda's personality. This is the woman who, when Huntress and Judomaster were cracking jokes about Barda's "mighty rod," said something like, "You know it's dirty if even I know what you're talking about."

Zinda+Hal, maybe. Zinda+Hal+Huntress? Hard to see.

Maybe Hal just watched? :confused:


So I'm in the minority for thinking that was a bit funny?

You weren't.

[kid_mash]

I don't think it is an overreaction to be annoyed that strong, well developed women are turned into sex objects. As if we need female sex objects in comics!

I think it's a overreaction to see Huntress and Lady Blackhawk having casual sex as somehow going against the idea that they are well developed women.(the sex object boat has long since sailed)
To me thats like saying women can not be empowered by sex, onley victimized.

[Infra-Man]

JUSTICE!!!!!!!!!!!

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/hvigilla/1991StadiumClubDaveJustice26.jpg

[Nick Soapdish]

So I'm in the minority for thinking that was a bit funny?

I thought it was funny, but I thought that it was a parody as well. It's funny as a fanfic, but it seems pretty ridiculous in the real DC.

Although I have to confess that "pretty ridiculous" is how I'd characterize a lot of stuff in comics these days.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

Maybe they were just trying to outdrink each other. And Hal doesn't want to admit that Zinda won. :)

That's certainly easier to buy than the, um, "alternative" here.

[spark627]

I think it's a overreaction to see Huntress and Lady Blackhawk having casual sex as somehow going against the idea that they are well developed women.(the sex object boat has long since sailed)
To me thats like saying women can not be empowered by sex, onley victimized.


I have no problem with them having casual sex. It is the threesome aspect that is stupid to me. Plus that line was not written with the intention of empowering woman... it was written for geeky fanboys who dream of this stuff. Nothing good or empowering will come from that and wasn't written to do so.

I WANT JUSTICE FOR HUNTRESS AND ZINDA. JUSTICE!

[Gail Simone]

I could see Lady Blackhawk, actually. Two pilots having some sexy fun, okay, I get that.

But I hate to see Huntress get branded as a slut again. The whole point of the Josh story was for her to realize she deserved better.

And I can't see them doing a threesome, that affects their friendship, and the Birds were ALREADY one of the very few books about female friendship which is so fucking rare in comics it might as well be moonbeans captured in mason jars. Not that friends can't have sex, but once again, this is all about the man, and "Well played, sir" is just, ugh.

I love James Robinson. But I really feel like most writers of mainstream comics get the sex thing all wrong over and over. It's all wink wink nudge nudge and women as trophies and thumbs up and it seems so weird and off-character to me.

But I haven't read it in context and I'm just the dumb girl anyway.

But James Robinson is a great writer, he's never written anything I didn't enjoy in comics and I still think Silver Age is an underrated classic. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But it does feel weird that people can read bop and still come away with the impression that THAT Huntress and THAT Lady Blackhawk would get drunk and be someone's sad Penthouse fantasy.

It just shows again that Bop was an important book for a lot of reasons and its absence is keenly felt in the portrayal of female characters in the DCU. Not my bop specifically, just the book overall.

[spark627]

I could see Lady Blackhawk, actually. Two pilots having some sexy fun, okay, I get that.

But I hate to see Huntress get branded as a slut again. The whole point of the Josh story was for her to realize she deserved better.

And I can't see them doing a threesome, that affects their friendship, and the Birds were ALREADY one of the very few books about female friendship which is so fucking rare in comics it might as well be moonbeans captured in mason jars. Not that friends can't have sex, but once again, this is all about the man, and "Well played, sir" is just, ugh.

I love James Robinson. But I really feel like most writers of mainstream comics get the sex thing all wrong over and over. It's all wink wink nudge nudge and women as trophies and thumbs up and it seems so weird and off-character to me.

But I haven't read it in context and I'm just the dumb girl anyway.

But James Robinson is a great writer, he's never written anything I didn't enjoy in comics and I still think Silver Age is an underrated classic. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But it does feel weird that people can read bop and still come away with the impression that THAT Huntress and THAT Lady Blackhawk would get drunk and be someone's sad Penthouse fantasy.

It just shows again that Bop was an important book for a lot of reasons and its absence is keenly felt in the portrayal of female characters in the DCU. Not my bop specifically, just the book overall.

Thank you for so elegantly saying exactly what I feel! BOP was one of the only books to showcase real female friendships and to see it turned into the a sex fantasy is frustrating.

[Gail Simone]

In re-reading it, I do think the two guys are acting in character...GA being a bit of a dick, betraying his liberal beliefs as he often does (you can't be a feminist and still slap your buddy on the back for his vagina scoreboard), and GL trying not to talk about it seems pretty truthful to me.

It's a good scene, just wish they had used someone other than the Huntress. Zinda I can see, but together with the Huntress is really unfortunate for a lot of reasons.

[Gail Simone]

Thank you for so elegantly saying exactly what I feel! BOP was one of the only books to showcase real female friendships and to see it turned into the a sex fantasy is frustrating.

That's what sucks about Bop being cancelled...people tended to respect the characters a bit more while the book was running. It might well not have been because the book was so wonderful, but more just professional courtesy, in that you can't do something awful to Black Canary when she is the star of a monthly book written by someone else.

But man, all bets were off once that book went away and they have ALL had some really sad moments, in my opinion.

[Free-Man]

That's what sucks about Bop being cancelled...people tended to respect the characters a bit more while the book was running. It might well not have been because the book was so wonderful, but more just professional courtesy, in that you can't do something awful to Black Canary when she is the star of a monthly book written by someone else.

But man, all bets were off once that book went away and they have ALL had some really sad moments, in my opinion.

What, you mean like Judomaster being made into the "me no speaky engrish" joke of the JSA?

[spark627]

That's what sucks about Bop being cancelled...people tended to respect the characters a bit more while the book was running. It might well not have been because the book was so wonderful, but more just professional courtesy, in that you can't do something awful to Black Canary when she is the star of a monthly book written by someone else.

But man, all bets were off once that book went away and they have ALL had some really sad moments, in my opinion.

Exactly. It is sad to see Huntress and Zinda disapear (although Rucka has said he will be using Huntress in the Question feature, yay) and the deterioration of all your hard work on Dinah in GA/BC.

I think these characters are tricky to get right, especially Huntress. It takes a skilled writer to understand them and I haven't seen it done since BOP (and not just your run, Chuck Dixon and Bedard handled them very well).

As you said above, this scene is in character for GL and GA but why couldn't be three random women and not Huntress and Zinda?

[KevinTBrown]

I'm a HUGE Hal Jordan fan, but there's no way he'd do what's being alluded to.... At least, not now.

He's very much involved with someone in his own book. (No, not Carol.) Even though it hasn't been fully explored, it's a relationship that seems to be solid and what Hal wants in his life when he's not being GL.

[Flamebird]

What, you mean like Judomaster being made into the "me no speaky engrish" joke of the JSA?

Was that even supposed to be the same character?

I was honestly never sure, as I gave up on this last version of JSA fairly early on.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

The return of Huntress's 'Hush' outfit the moment the ongoing ended was certainly a "give me a break"-moment.

[galactica]

I'm a HUGE Hal Jordan fan, but there's no way he'd do what's being alluded to.... At least, not now.

He's very much involved with someone in his own book. (No, not Carol.) Even though it hasn't been fully explored, it's a relationship that seems to be solid and what Hal wants in his life when he's not being GL.

There's nothing to suggest it's current. Whatever happened could have happened before Hal was in a relationship.

[K-DoG7p7]

... at what point did they say sex ?

I'm sorry but there could be a thousand funny situations he might be refering too..


you are all just a bunch of perverts

[Gail Simone]

What IS it about female friendship that is so scary or impossible to imagine that it's so rare in comics? Honest to god, and I"m not talking about this book here, but it's something I've thought of often, it's just utterly baffling to me how poorly female-to-female non-sexual relationships are realized.

We have tons and tons of historic bromances in comics, but I really had to invent a superhero female friendship for Diana because she didn't really have one outside of Donna. How dumb is that, in seventy years of stories? The Jla, the Avengers, all that stuff, hardly any lasting friendships between two women.

Once again, JLI was ahead of the game with Fire and Ice. But the vast majority of female team books are of the dumbass Charlie's Angels mode, where everything is about fake lesbian posery and talking about men, as if the characters don't exist without them.

When I wrote bop, we went almost five years with no serious romantic subplot quite intentionally, with the idea of showing that women can actually have real friendships and arguments and all of that range of emotion without having to connect it to guys for it to carry weight and validity. And I think it worked, I think people understood that Canary and Zinda and Babs and Helena loved each other, genuinely loved each other. I think that was the pure joy of the book, really.

Why is that such an unbelievably rare thing, not just in comics, but in all media?

It's weird.

I stress again, this has nothing to do with what James wrote here, and I don't throw James in with that group that apparently thinks female friendship doesn't exist at all. It's just something that frustrates me. I am dead set against the idea that women and minorities should be portrayed as flawless paragons of virtue in comics stories, but here we're talking about basic humanity...to take away the ability for female characters to be friends is to deny their basic humanity, and I do think a bit of that is still going on.

Quick, name some genuine, believable superhero female friendships of long standing, along the lines of, say, Power Man and Iron Fist, for example, or GA and GL.

[Kyuubi]

How long lasting are we talking about?



I can only think of Star Girl and Cyclone, but that's not very long.

[Gail Simone]

What, you mean like Judomaster being made into the "me no speaky engrish" joke of the JSA?

I haven't kept up on JSA but to be fair, I didn't really get the chance to give the new Judomaster much of a personality yet in bop, so it's understandable to have the character be fleshed out more when someone else picked her up, which I was glad Geoff did, because there is cool potential there.

[kid_mash]

Well there's Misty Knight and Colleen Wing but I acn't think of any others. Plus the interchangeable boyfriends thing undercuts it a bit.

[ryerye17]

Quick, name some genuine, believable superhero female friendships of long standing, along the lines of, say, Power Man and Iron Fist, for example, or GA and GL.

This is interesting I was actually thinking a lot and ended up a blank. The only people who come to mind would be Dinah and Helena. With Zelda and Babs too. Of course, Bea and Ice would be a nice second

[Flamebird]

Quick, name some genuine, believable superhero female friendships of long standing, along the lines of, say, Power Man and Iron Fist, for example, or GA and GL.

About the only ones I can think of would be Shrinking Violet and Lightning Lass; but then along came Five Years Later. . .:frown:

I always thought that Sue Richards and Janet Van Dyne should have been close friends, or at least "ladies that lunch".
They both have crazy obsessive scientists for husbands and a lot of free time when the boys are building their next "great thing". You know, the one that might destroy the world.

[K-DoG7p7]

OhhOhh Ohh!

Miss Cain and Miss Brown
Miss Sandmark and Miss King-Jones


and...... they are both from the last 10 years.....

[ScottyQuick]

I can see Zinda/Hal, but not Zinda/Hal/Helena.

Hal/Zinda/Ollie?


... maybe.


OhhOhh Ohh!

Miss Cain and Miss Brown
Miss Sandmark and Miss King-Jones

Stephanie died and we haven't seen their friendship in the past 5 years, and I don't think we've seen Cissie since YJ ended either.

[Gail Simone]

And I don't want to belabor this point, but if you had this scene with the genders reversed, people would be tearing their own heads off.

Imagine it.

HUNTRESS: I have a confession to make.

LADY BLACKHAWK: If it's about you with Green Arrow, Green Lantern, and a bottle of grappa, I already know about it. All I can say is, "Well played, ma'am."

HUNTRESS: You know about that?

LADY BLACKHAWK: Everyone knows about that. Even Starfire was impressed and she once did a three-way with Blue Beetle and Booster Gold.


I think the readers would have gotten a lynching party going by now.

[JKCarrier]

It's a good scene, just wish they had used someone other than the Huntress. Zinda I can see, but together with the Huntress is really unfortunate for a lot of reasons.

Having it be two characters from BOP, one of the more pro-feminist hero books, gives it an extra-creepy subtext of, "Let's put those uppity bitches in their place". I hope that was unintentional, but geez.

[ryerye17]

weren't Salu and Ayla lesbian lovers? so that doesn't count, otherwise I could also include Grace and Thunder.

As for the comment made by GA to GL..

I found it fun. I mean, we're all human, we all have libido. Who know what could happen when you're fighting alongside someone? The tension, the heat and the passion surface. And then there's Hal Jordan.

[Gail Simone]

That's my point. Bop wasn't rare because it had a female cast. It was rare because it was a superhero female buddy book, which makes it very nearly one-of-a-kind in the HISTORY OF COMICS.

That's more than sad, it's creepy.

[Toygeek]

What IS it about female friendship that is so scary or impossible to imagine that it's so rare in comics? Honest to god, and I"m not talking about this book here, but it's something I've thought of often, it's just utterly baffling to me how poorly female-to-female non-sexual relationships are realized.

I really think that, and this isn't judgment just statement of fact, but I think the biggest reason things are the way they are is because for decades, the only people who wrote comics were men. White men at that, which is why minorities have been treated so shabbily as well over the years. People tend to write what they know, and white men are, by default, going to be better at writing stories about other white men.

Not saying it's right, just that it happened.

It really hasn't been until probably the last 15 years or so (at best) that diversity has really seeped into comics. It's not perfect, but at least it's a start.

**edit**
Oh, and Colleen Wing and Misty Knight were the only ones I could come up with too...and they really only existed as support players for Luke and Danny for most of their existence.

[Gail Simone]

weren't Salu and Ayla lesbian lovers? so that doesn't count, otherwise I could also include Grace and Thunder.

As for the comment made by GA to GL..

I found it fun. I mean, we're all human, we all have libido. Who know what could happen when you're fighting alongside someone? The tension, the heat and the passion surface. And then there's Hal Jordan.

No, I'm talking about friendship, non-sexual friendship.

[ryerye17]

And I don't want to belabor this point, but if you had this scene with the genders reversed, people would be tearing their own heads off.

Imagine it.

HUNTRESS: I have a confession to make.

LADY BLACKHAWK: If it's about you with Green Arrow, Green Lantern, and a bottle of grappa, I already know about it. All I can say is, "Well played, ma'am."

HUNTRESS: You know about that?

LADY BLACKHAWK: Everyone knows about that. Even Starfire was impressed and she once did a three-way with Blue Beetle and Booster Gold.


I think the readers would have gotten a lynching party going by now.

Ooooh. That's fun. A little ick, though, I mean who would have sex with Booster Gold.

[Gail Simone]

I really think that, and this isn't judgment just statement of fact, but I think the biggest reason things are the way they are is because for decades, the only people who wrote comics were men. White men at that, which is why minorities have been treated so shabbily as well over the years. People tend to write what they know, and white men are, by default, going to be better at writing stories about other white men.

Not saying it's right, just that it happened.

It really hasn't been until probably the last 15 years or so (at best) that diversity has really seeped into comics. It's not perfect, but at least it's a start.

I think that's true and I also am non-judgmental about that for the most part.

But I think it's a failure of imagination in the industry as a whole that to this day female characters are still mostly thought of only in their relationships to male characters. That's why so many of them suck raw eggs as characters.

[KevinTBrown]

... at what point did they say sex ?

I'm sorry but there could be a thousand funny situations he might be refering too..


you are all just a bunch of perverts

I guess you don't know what "Lothario" means, do you...?

[Corrina]

I haven't kept up on JSA but to be fair, I didn't really get the chance to give the new Judomaster much of a personality yet in bop, so it's understandable to have the character be fleshed out more when someone else picked her up, which I was glad Geoff did, because there is cool potential there.

Years ago...

Power Girl and the original Huntress.

Storm and Jean Gray.

And Donna, Kory, & Raven were true friends.

(I think it's no coincidence that these were some of my favorite stories.)

And, once upon a time, Renee Montoya and Sarah Essen were friends.

None of those are current.

[ryerye17]

No, I'm talking about friendship, non-sexual friendship.

Okay

What about Kory and Raven? Jade and Donna?

Oh, there's this mini-series on-going in Marvel, which I absolutely adore. Marvel Divas it's about four C-list (or B-list, I still don't know the difference) superheroes - Black Cat, Hellcat, Photon and Firestar

They're sort of like a sex and the city type friendship. It is after all a parody of sex and the city.

[Michael P]

As you said above, this scene is in character for GL and GA but why couldn't be three random women and not Huntress and Zinda?

Because then there's no punchline.

[Gail Simone]

So here's my question, would Hal have been in a three-way with another man?

Because neither Huntress nor Zinda has ever shown the slightest on-panel interest in other women sexually, so that puts them in the same camp as Hal and Ollie, apparently, as confirmed heterosexuals (or deeply closeted Other).

Would the writer have told that same joke with Hal and Ollie being the bread in a sexual sandwich?

Not saying he wouldn't, just wondering.

[Gail Simone]

Because then there's no punchline.

Denigrating characters for a punchline is a lousy trade-off.

[galactica]

And I don't want to belabor this point, but if you had this scene with the genders reversed, people would be tearing their own heads off.

Imagine it.

HUNTRESS: I have a confession to make.

LADY BLACKHAWK: If it's about you with Green Arrow, Green Lantern, and a bottle of grappa, I already know about it. All I can say is, "Well played, ma'am."

HUNTRESS: You know about that?

LADY BLACKHAWK: Everyone knows about that. Even Starfire was impressed and she once did a three-way with Blue Beetle and Booster Gold.


I think the readers would have gotten a lynching party going by now.

Maybe but i would actually like to read an exchange like that between two women especially in the DCU. Not necessarily about the implication of a threesome but just a casual one night stand.

[Corrina]

Well there's Misty Knight and Colleen Wing but I acn't think of any others. Plus the interchangeable boyfriends thing undercuts it a bit.

There's a lesbian undercurrent there--not covert, overt, as I think one of them, if not both, are bisexual.

[kid_mash]

Denigrating characters for a punchline is a lousy trade-off.

I'd still argue that it's not necessarily denigrating.

[Gail Simone]

Okay

What about Kory and Raven? Jade and Donna?

Oh, there's this mini-series on-going in Marvel, which I absolutely adore. Marvel Divas it's about four C-list (or B-list, I still don't know the difference) superheroes - Black Cat, Hellcat, Photon and Firestar

They're sort of like a sex and the city type friendship. It is after all a parody of sex and the city.

Kory and Raven? Really? That seems a stretch. Jade and Donna I don't know about, must've missed those issues.

And haven't read the book you're talking about, it's only an issue or two old, right? It may be a blessed exception which would be great.

But I hate Sex in the City! :)

[K-DoG7p7]

I guess you don't know what "Lothario" means, do you...?

it does not mean sex.. if thats what your implying..
in fact Ollie don't even call Hal a "Lothario".

[Michael P]

Denigrating characters for a punchline is a lousy trade-off.

No argument there. I was just giving a frank answer to the question.

[Corrina]

O
Oh, there's this mini-series on-going in Marvel, which I absolutely adore. Marvel Divas it's about four C-list (or B-list, I still don't know the difference) superheroes - Black Cat, Hellcat, Photon and Firestar

They're sort of like a sex and the city type friendship. It is after all a parody of sex and the city.

Marvel Divas.

ARGH.

Not only does it miss the point of female superheroes, it actually misses the point of Sex & the City.

Btw, Mammia Mia is a horrible movie in a ton of ways. But it was a big hit for several reasons, one being the strong female friendship between Meryl Streep, Julie Waters & Christine Baranski. It also helped that they looked like they were having the time of their lives. Meryl Streep does air guitar. That is awesome.

[K-DoG7p7]

So here's my question, would Hal have been in a three-way with another man?
if it was Ollie of Barry.. No question :tongue:

[Corrina]

Kory and Raven? Really? That seems a stretch. Jade and Donna I don't know about, must've missed those issues.



Way back in the Wolfman/Perez Titans. Kory and Raven weren't like Kory & Donna but Kory tried hard to get to know her friend, considered her a teammate and as close as a sister. Raven was harder to read but felt the same.

Of course, that got thrown away with the whole evil Raven lesbian kiss. Which sorta proves Gail's point.

[KevinTBrown]

it does not mean sex.. if thats what your implying..
in fact Ollie don't even call Hal a "Lothario".

It means a "seducer of women".... So, yeah, sex is more than likely involved.

And Ollie is referring to Rex Mason, who is duly impressed by what Hal supposedly was able to accomplish.


The implication is that Hal had sex with both Zinda and Helena in one night. Not necessarily in a threesome, but definitely in one night.

[Gail Simone]

My x-men memory is fuzzy but I can certainly remember that the x-girls seemed to like each other (though Storm/Kitty was more mentor/apprentice than friend/friend).

I wouldn't be surprised if X-men were the exceptions at all.

[K-DoG7p7]

Stephanie died and we haven't seen their friendship in the past 5 years, and I don't think we've seen Cissie since YJ ended either.
Cissie was in a Teen Titans Annual (hanging out with Cassie) and in the recent Wonder Girl mini


It means a "seducer of women".... So, yeah, sex is more than likely involved.

And Ollie is referring to Rex Mason, who is duly impressed by what Hal supposedly was able to accomplish.


The implication is that Hal had sex with both Zinda and Helena in one night. Not necessarily in a threesome, but definitely in one night.
Right.. but just because you impress someone does not mean you did what they are known for..

If Hal shoots at a target and impresses Ollie.. does that instantly mean that Hal used a bow?

[ScottyQuick]

There's a lesbian undercurrent there--not covert, overt, as I think one of them, if not both, are bisexual.

Eh, not really, it's just really slashy in the Danny/Luke kind of way. I don't think either of them are out, it's just there was this one scene where Colleen goes "8th floor. Accounting, lingerie, and DEATH BY SAMURAI" and Misty goes "I love that crazy white girl so much I could holler" and Luke goes "Why don't cha get gay married?" and she goes "We'd lose our insurance".


So here's my question, would Hal have been in a three-way with another man?

Depends how drunk he is. With Ollie, of course, he'd just need a couple of beers and then he could pretend later that he was TOTALLY WASTED and had NO CLUE WHAT HE WAS DOING.

[Corrina]

The X-Men really did have strong female friendship, particularly Jean and Ororo.

Now? I dunno. Certainly, Emma's not best buds with anyone, Kitty is MIA, Jean is currently dead, Polaris is...I have no idea....

People always comment on Scott/Emma but very little comment on the fact that without Jean, Ororo lost her best friend. But hte focus is, of course, on the romance and the sex.

I never thought of it that way but it's probably one of the reasons I like the X-Men. Kitty and Megan over in Excalibur were friends too. And I think the girls of the original New Mutants, such as Dani & Rahne.

[spark627]

Because then there's no punchline.

I believe the problem is using women as the punchline. duh.

[Michael P]

So here's my question, would Hal have been in a three-way with another man?

Because neither Huntress nor Zinda has ever shown the slightest on-panel interest in other women sexually, so that puts them in the same camp as Hal and Ollie, apparently, as confirmed heterosexuals (or deeply closeted Other).

Would the writer have told that same joke with Hal and Ollie being the bread in a sexual sandwich?

Not saying he wouldn't, just wondering.

Well, there's a weird double standard operating there, where in MMF threesomes, there's not the same assumption of homosexual interaction between the two guys as there is between the two women in an MFF threesome. (There's even a dumb little joke about it, where there's a supposed rule that "it's not gay as long as your balls don't touch.") This is akin to the double standard where two women making out is awesome, but two guys making out is gross. So sadly, even if Hal, Ollie and Dinah were all to spend a wild night in Monte Carlo together (and I think we can all agree that Gail's Dinah would kick both men's testicles into their tracheas for even suggesting it), there wouldn't be the same implication that there is here.

[Toygeek]

There's a lesbian undercurrent there--not covert, overt, as I think one of them, if not both, are bisexual.

In the Daughters of the Dragon mini from a couple years back that lead into the latest Heroes for hire, they did seem to play up the possibility that Colleen might have a bit of a "thing" for Misty, but that may just be in how you read it...she's definitely very protective of her. Misty and Iron Fist are having a kid now though, which does kinda close any possibilities.

Come to think of it, Danny Rand and Misty Knight are the first interracial couple I can think of in comics...and that goes back to what, the early 70's? That's STILL something you don't see too often. Which isn't really important to this thread, but interesting nonetheless.

[TCJohnson]

My x-men memory is fuzzy but I can certainly remember that the x-girls seemed to like each other (though Storm/Kitty was more mentor/apprentice than friend/friend).

I wouldn't be surprised if X-men were the exceptions at all.

Rogue, Storm and Kitty got along very well but they were never buddies like Beast and Iceman or Kitty Pryde and Nightcrawler.

[ryerye17]

There's a lesbian undercurrent there--not covert, overt, as I think one of them, if not both, are bisexual.

I think that's what Gail's point is. That if you have a girl-on-girl friendship, people automatically find a lesbian undertone.

Given that logic, we could always argue that the following characters seem a ttle lesbian:

Cassie and Cissie
Kory and Raven
Babs and Dinah

Not to be sexist, but you are aware that men like lesbians a lot?

[Gail Simone]

Well, there's a weird double standard operating there, where in MMF threesomes, there's not the same assumption of homosexual interaction between the two guys as there is between the two women in an MFF threesome. (There's even a dumb little joke about it, where there's a supposed rule that "it's not gay as long as your balls don't touch.") This is akin to the double standard where two women making out is awesome, but two guys making out is gross. So sadly, even if Hal, Ollie and Dinah were all to spend a wild night in Monte Carlo together (and I think we can all agree that Gail's Dinah would kick both men's testicles into their tracheas for even suggesting it), there wouldn't be the same implication that there is here.

Possibly not, but it'd still be GA and GL naked and drunk in bed having sex together, just there would be a woman between them.

I submit that readers would burn down DC and possibly New York with it.

[ryerye17]

Kory and Raven? Really? That seems a stretch. Jade and Donna I don't know about, must've missed those issues.

And haven't read the book you're talking about, it's only an issue or two old, right? It may be a blessed exception which would be great.

But I hate Sex in the City! :)

Jade and Donna, I think, was in Outsiders where they realized that they have a common factor (having dated Kyle)

and Marvel Divas is four issues.I love it, but maybe I'm just biased because I'm a sucker for gender issues in comics (that's why I absolutey adore Winick)

[spark627]

I think that's what Gail's point is. That if you have a girl-on-girl friendship, people automatically find a lesbian undertone.

Given that logic, we could always argue that the following characters seem a ttle lesbian:

Cassie and Cissie
Kory and Raven
Babs and Dinah

Not to be sexist, but you are aware that men like lesbians a lot?

Are you serious? What about Babs and Dinah seem lesbian? Cassie? And how do you seem lesbian? Yea, I am aware that STRAIGHT men like lesbians... are you suggesting we should cater to that sexual attraction? If we are cater to people's fantasies then I want to see Hal and Nightwing slap each other's ass when they win a battle.

[ryerye17]

Possibly not, but it'd still be GA and GL naked and drunk in bed having sex together, just there would be a woman between them.

I submit that readers would burn down DC and possibly New York with it.

Oh no. If they have Hal and Ollie in bed together...I would love DC so much that I'd include Didio in my will.

I don't know. Just like heterosexual men imagine Huntress and Zelda together...speaking as a gay man, I do want to see Kyle and Wally uhm..together.

[ScottyQuick]

Possibly not, but it'd still be GA and GL naked and drunk in bed having sex together, just there would be a woman between them.

I submit that readers would burn down DC and possibly New York with it.

I think that DC needs to tap into the yaoi market and should start by hooking up Hal and Ollie.

For science marketing.

[ryerye17]

Are you serious? What about Babs and Dinah seem lesbian? Cassie? And how do you seem lesbian? Yea, I am aware that STRAIGHT men like lesbians... are you suggesting we should cater to that sexual attraction? If we are cater to people's fantasies then I want to see Hal and Nightwing slap each other's ass when they win a battle.
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/seduction/obcs.jpg

To clarify. I'm not saying that is a lesbian scene. However, some people might think this is sort of a lesbian scne

http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=387:oracle-and-black-canary-get-all-wet&catid=32:seduction-index&Itemid=36

[spark627]

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/seduction/obcs.jpg

To clarify. I'm not saying that is a lesbian scene. However, some people might think this is sort of a lesbian scne

http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=387:oracle-and-black-canary-get-all-wet&catid=32:seduction-index&Itemid=36

But that is the problem. Two female best friends can't hug or hold each other when injured. This should be considered sexual. I don't see it as that.

[ryerye17]

But that is the problem. Two female best friends can't hug or hold each other when injured. This should be considered sexual. I don't see it as that.

I agree with you. Totally. I don't think there's anything sexual there.

However, try telling that to the fantasies of a guy. They really wouldn't go with "oh that's nice feministic platonic love", they'd go, "dang, that's kinda hot".

[Michael P]

Possibly not, but it'd still be GA and GL naked and drunk in bed having sex together, just there would be a woman between them.

For a lot of guys, that woman would make all the difference.


I submit that readers would burn down DC and possibly New York with it.

I doubt it. Aside from the yaoi contingent (who've already weighed in on this thread),

I'm certain you'd get some people P.O.'ed, largely skewing towards the aging Silver Agers (Craig Shutt would go positively Grodd-shit), but the 35-and-under readership, I''m thinking there'd be mostly frat-boy-ish high-fiving. And I guarantee that that "it's not gay if the balls don't touch" bit would show up on the first page of any thread discussing it.

And now that I think of it, the writer would probably bend over backwards to make it clear that Hal and Ollie didn't do anything with each other, they just played the bread in a chick sandwich.

[TCJohnson]

Rogue, Storm and Kitty got along very well but they were never buddies like Beast and Iceman or Kitty Pryde and Nightcrawler.

I just rememered...Rachel Summers and Kitty Pryde had a good buddy relationship. I think that is because of their age. Kitty was a teenager, Rogue was in her late teens/early 20s and Storm was in her mid to late 20s.

By the way, Corrina, Polaris is in that War of Kings event going on.

[Michael P]

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/seduction/obcs.jpg

To clarify. I'm not saying that is a lesbian scene. However, some people might think this is sort of a lesbian scne

http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=387:oracle-and-black-canary-get-all-wet&catid=32:seduction-index&Itemid=36

It's certainly drawn as one. I mean, Dinah is totally copping a feel.

[Gail Simone]

For a lot of guys, that woman would make all the difference.



I doubt it. Aside from the yaoi contingent (who've already weighed in on this thread),

I'm certain you'd get some people P.O.'ed, largely skewing towards the aging Silver Agers (Craig Shutt would go positively Grodd-shit), but the 35-and-under readership, I''m thinking there'd be mostly frat-boy-ish high-fiving. And I guarantee that that "it's not gay if the balls don't touch" bit would show up on the first page of any thread discussing it.

And now that I think of it, the writer would probably bend over backwards to make it clear that Hal and Ollie didn't do anything with each other, they just played the bread in a chick sandwich.

It will never happen.

[Charles RB]

It's a good scene, just wish they had used someone other than the Huntress. Zinda I can see, but together with the Huntress is really unfortunate for a lot of reasons.

Out of interest, which character do you think would've worked better than Huntress?

[KevinTBrown]

It will never happen.

Agreed.

And I would even say that Hal would NEVER be involved in a threesome. Period. He may be a ladies man, but he's a "one-woman-at-a-time" man.

[K-DoG7p7]

.. Uhhmm..

It was clearly atleast one shapeshifter there!
I mean, Zinda drinking WINE? HA!

[Corrina]

I agree with you. Totally. I don't think there's anything sexual there.

However, try telling that to the fantasies of a guy. They really wouldn't go with "oh that's nice feministic platonic love", they'd go, "dang, that's kinda hot".

That's Land art, isn't it? And the first meeting between the two women in person AND Dinah's just pulled her out of the water after Babs has been shot.

And, again, I think that's Gail's point. There must be a lesbian undercurrent or it's not as fun for the male readers, I guess.

[K-DoG7p7]

That's Land art, isn't it? And the first meeting between the two women in person AND Dinah's just pulled her out of the water after Babs has been shot.

And, again, I think that's Gail's point. There must be a lesbian undercurrent or it's not as fun for the male readers, I guess.

YEs i think thats Land from before he discovered Google Imagesearch

[Corrina]

(that's why I absolutey adore Winick)

You lost me right there. :)

[Matt Algren]

Am I the only one who sees the disconnect between the words and the pictures? It's pretty enough, but it's got that COMIX-IS-SERIOUS-BIDNESS vibe and the dialogue is all HE-SAID-BEWBS frat boy.

[Charles RB]

the 35-and-under readership, I''m thinking there'd be mostly frat-boy-ish high-fiving. And I guarantee that that "it's not gay if the balls don't touch" bit would show up on the first page of any thread discussing it.

And now that I think of it, the writer would probably bend over backwards to make it clear that Hal and Ollie didn't do anything with each other, they just played the bread in a chick sandwich.

Yeah, that sounds about right.


It's certainly drawn as one. I mean, Dinah is totally copping a feel.

It does look rather... odd for a panel of someone holding their wounded mate. I wouldn't even know that WAS what she was doing if it hadn't been pointed out to me.

[Matt Algren]

YEs i think thats Land from before he discovered Google Imagesearch
I'm pretty sure that issue (yes I know what issue it's from DON'T JUDGE ME) was Butch Guice.

[K-DoG7p7]

I'm pretty sure that issue (yes I know what issue it's from DON'T JUDGE ME) was Butch Guice.

I can find out in a few sec!



You are correct sir!

[galactica]

Am I the only one who sees the disconnect between the words and the pictures? It's pretty enough, but it's got that COMIX-IS-SERIOUS-BIDNESS vibe and the dialogue is all HE-SAID-BEWBS frat boy.

No. I like the dialogue a lot better than issue 1 and I like the art but it's not very expressive.

[Matt Algren]

I can find out in a few sec!



You are correct sir!
My inner fanboy may be dusty, but he knows his shit!

[Corrina]

I'm pretty sure that issue (yes I know what issue it's from DON'T JUDGE ME) was Butch Guice.

It's from Hunt For Oracle, which was collected in Nightwing trades, oddly enough, though it was a NIghtwing/BoP crossover, and featured Dinah & Babs first meeting.

It lists both Land and Butch Guice as illustrators.

[Flamebird]

It's from Hunt For Oracle, which was collected in Nightwing trades, oddly enough, though it was a NIghtwing/BoP crossover, and featured Dinah & Babs first meeting.

It lists both Land and Butch Guice as illustrators.

That was actually my first time reading about the Birds. At first it seemed odd in a Nightwing trade, but I soon got more into their story than his.

Which sucked, cause it ended on a cliffhanger for Babs and Dinah with no clue on where to find the rest of the story.

[Gail Simone]

Out of interest, which character do you think would've worked better than Huntress?

Well, no one, because Zinda wouldn't hop in bed with another woman.

But if you take Zinda out, there are plenty of more appropriate females in the dcu, including some I've written. I could see a couple Outsiders being game for it, Jeannette or Knockout would certainly be up to it. It's the combination of characters here that bugs me. Zinda and Helena are friends, and them getting naked together to give Hal the tongue bath treatment that so many writers seem to secretly be longing to give him (I AM KIDDING, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE), is just hugely out of character in my opinion.

But writers disagree all the time.

[Gail Simone]

No. I like the dialogue a lot better than issue 1 and I like the art but it's not very expressive.

I like the art quite a lot...I like the layout and poses, and of course, James Robinson is a terrific writer.

[Nick Soapdish]

Am I the only one who sees the disconnect between the words and the pictures? It's pretty enough, but it's got that COMIX-IS-SERIOUS-BIDNESS vibe and the dialogue is all HE-SAID-BEWBS frat boy.

That's what made me think it was a parody at first. It's like those Civil War swipes.

[galactica]

I like the art quite a lot...I like the layout and poses, and of course, James Robinson is a terrific writer.

When Hal turns as says "wait-huh-you heard about that?" That's not the face I would imagine someone in that situation having.

The art itself it nice.

[AndrewCrossett]

I'd sure love to see a scene where Dinah tells the *real* story of what happened there... a scene that concludes with the promise of a good smack upside the head of a certain dirty-minded archer. :biggrin:

[DungeonmasterJim]

The X-Men really did have strong female friendship, particularly Jean and Ororo.

Now? I dunno. Certainly, Emma's not best buds with anyone, Kitty is MIA, Jean is currently dead, Polaris is...I have no idea....

People always comment on Scott/Emma but very little comment on the fact that without Jean, Ororo lost her best friend. But hte focus is, of course, on the romance and the sex.

I never thought of it that way but it's probably one of the reasons I like the X-Men. Kitty and Megan over in Excalibur were friends too. And I think the girls of the original New Mutants, such as Dani & Rahne.

Answering before reading the most recent pages...

Chris Claremont was pretty big on giving the female characters the spotlight in the titles he wrote. And because he wrote the title for such a long time he was able to build his relationships between several of the female characters and have them stick because he was the sole writer. He showed Jean and Storm as mentioned and Kitty sort of had a revolving door of best friends: Rachel, Illyana, and Storm. They were all about friendship first. I can't recall Rogue being best friends with any of the X-Women but she was friendly at least, except for maybe with Dazzler who was a competitor for the guys in the group.

Once Claremont left the title I really can't recall the female friendship deal much. It's all about the writer. If it's important to the writer, the friendships will be there.

Personally, I have no problem with the two guys with one girl deal. Hell, my friends did that TWICE with this attractive gamer chick and got banned from a gaming con because of it. :evilsmile: It was just casual sex between friends but other people made it more than that thus the banning...

For me it's all about what characters are doing it. If it's out of character for one of the characters involved, there had better be a very good reason for the incident or it's just not going to ring true or even plausible.


DM Jim

[Alexx1]

That's one of the most depressing things I've read. Even if it's not about wha'ts being insinuated, it's still such a betrayl to the characters. I don't t know anything about Hal so I can can't speak for him but no way in hell would Huntress and LB engage in a threesome (that would involve each other or another woman). It would betray their friendship, make it awkward, and just about end it. Besides, if they did why would they boast about it and tell Dinah who'd inturn tell Ollie. But you know it's Huntress and we know by now she's fair game. They might as well go ahead a write a scene showing her f****** every DC hero and villian and get the shit over with. What disgust me the most on how writers handle Huntress is that she was a character created with an abundence (maybe too much at times) of self-confidence and self-esteem and yet she's the one that gets reduced to a f*** buddy, I mean apparently she'll get it on with anyone.

I more upset with Didio and DC Editiorial for allowing this than Robinson. I don't share other's sentiments that he's a TERRIFIC writer. Terrific writers imo don't stoop to these gimmicks. I'm a dude and there's nothing about this that turns me on. And they don't write characters wildly out of character.They honor what's come before. I haven't been impressed him and this won't help. I hope enough people will stick up for these characters though and show DC their disapproval in how their being handled. This shit has got to stop. But since the cancellation of BOP it's just gone for bad to worse.

Even if it were a joke, its' distasteful. Those are Ollie's wife's best friends/sisters he talking about. I don't know a lot of men would joke like that and if my wife ever heard me joking about something like that about her sister/friends I'd be sleeping on the couch indefinitely. But then again, Ollie isn't written as having a lot of respect for his wife.

[LewisH]

Right after the dedication of Ted Kord's memorial the three of them get together and have their own private wake and Zinda and Helena end up spending the night on Hal's couch since they are too drunk to drive or fly safely and too embarassed to call a cab.

Dinah tells Ollie what a nice guy Hal is and Ollie makes the same assumption all of you have just because of Hal's reputation (which imo is unfair. While he was Carol he was faithful to her. Ditto for Arisia and now for Cowgirl.) Hal being a guy ( and knowing denial won't do any good anyway) let's people believe what they want and gets on with his life since after all he's got an entire galaxy full of murderous black ring wielders to deal with anyway.

[Alexx1]

Right after the dedication of Ted Kord's memorial the three of them get together and have their own private wake and Zinda and Helena end up spending the night on Hal's couch since they are too drunk to drive or fly safely and too embarassed to call a cab.

Dinah tells Ollie what a nice guy Hal is and Ollie makes the same assumption all of you have just because of Hal's reputation (which imo is unfair. While he was Carol he was faithful to her. Ditto for Arisia and now for Cowgirl.) Hal being a guy ( and knowing denial won't do any good anyway) let's people believe what they want and gets on with his life since after all he's got an entire galaxy full of murderous black ring wielders to deal with anyway.


So it wouldn't be a big deal then that Ollie has spread a rumor about Hal/Helena/Zinda that according to him "everyone knows about" only it's not true. According to Ollie folks are giving Hal "mad props" for something that didn't really occur. But it's no big deal. Only that it is no matter how you slice and dice it. Helena and Zinda come across badly and how are they to earn the respect of their collegues and counter parts with something like this out there. It's bullshit dude.

[greatmetropolitan]

It does seem kinda weird to me that Robinson, a good friend of Geoff Johns', would imply this thing happened. Surely he'd be reading his friend's comic, especially as he'll be writing this character in two comics soon? If so, he'd know about Hal's relationship with Cowgirl etc. Robinson is by no means a stupid writer, so it's weird to me that this slipped by him, if indeed it did.

Who knows, maybe there's more pages after where the real story is told.

I say Hal bet Huntress and Zinda a bottle of grappa that he could successfully hit on the nearest blonde. They of course don't know that it's Cowgirl, and think he's just that good :tongue: Please dont take that seriously and hit me with "So you think they'd be IMPRESSED that he can hit on women? You don't get them AT ALL" etc

All I'll say is that writers have done far worse to female characters in comics than this unexplained exchange.

Let's not go crucifying Robinson for this, huh?

[Stanlos]

I think it's a overreaction to see Huntress and Lady Blackhawk having casual sex as somehow going against the idea that they are well developed women.(the sex object boat has long since sailed)
To me thats like saying women can not be empowered by sex, onley victimized.

I could buy this for maybe five minutes if we learned of it in a scene where Huntress and/or Zinda were laughing over some past experience they shared. I could perhaps buy it if it were about them in any way at all.
But beyond being props to evidence how virile and ssssssstudly the yawner that is Hal Jordan is they are unengaged, uninvolved and voiceless.

It isn't their experience at all.

[Mambazo]

It's amazing the lengths that people will go to get upset over a shitty throwaway joke.

[Typo Lad]

Shitty throwaway jokes by otherwise good writers are offensive.

As is fetishizing all women in comics.

[Mambazo]

Shitty throwaway jokes by otherwise good writers are offensive.


Nothing about this joke was worth 8 pages of anger and name calling.

[KevinTBrown]

Shitty throwaway jokes by otherwise good writers are offensive.

As is fetishizing all women in comics.

Yeah....... That never happens with DC characters....

http://blog.newsarama.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10087/zatanna.png

[Infra-Man]

That's one of the most depressing things I've read.

I can understand not liking it, but one of the most depressing things you've ever read? Really? I mean, c'mon... really?

[Typo Lad]

Nothing about this joke was worth 8 pages of anger and name calling.
Find me name calling?

The one angry person here seems to be the person who created the dynamic that's being uased as a punchline, and I doubt Gail would even use the word "angry".

[Nick Soapdish]

Nothing about this joke was worth 8 pages of anger and name calling.

A lot of those 8 pages are responses to people that don't think that it's an issue. Or at least an issue worth discussing.

[KevinTBrown]

Find me name calling?

The one angry person here seems to be the person who created the dynamic that's being uased as a punchline, and I doubt Gail would even use the word "angry".

You called Robinson a *gasp!* GOOD WRITER!!! How dare you!!!

Such angst....

[ryerye17]

Yeah....... That never happens with DC characters....

http://blog.newsarama.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10087/zatanna.png

hey! that's my favorite zee image!

[Mambazo]

Find me name calling?

The one angry person here seems to be the person who created the dynamic that's being uased as a punchline, and I doubt Gail would even use the word "angry".

Did I accuse you of name calling? No I just said it's happening in this thread.

Or did the first page of this thread just suddenly disappear?

[spark627]

Yeah....... That never happens with DC characters....

http://blog.newsarama.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10087/zatanna.png

Zatanna doesn't bother me bc I have see female magicians in VERY similar outfits.

[bfrank]

The X-Men really did have strong female friendship, particularly Jean and Ororo.

Now? I dunno. Certainly, Emma's not best buds with anyone, Kitty is MIA, Jean is currently dead, Polaris is...I have no idea....

People always comment on Scott/Emma but very little comment on the fact that without Jean, Ororo lost her best friend. But hte focus is, of course, on the romance and the sex.

I never thought of it that way but it's probably one of the reasons I like the X-Men. Kitty and Megan over in Excalibur were friends too. And I think the girls of the original New Mutants, such as Dani & Rahne.

To be fair, Ororo goes through her share of telepathic best friends....See Betsy and Tessa.....

[Flamebird]

Did I accuse you of name calling? No I just said it's happening in this thread.

Or did the first page of this thread just suddenly disappear?

Just re-read the first page. The worst thing he was called was "fanboy".

So unless you happen to be rick olney, not much in the way of name-calling there. :wink:

[Typo Lad]

Did I accuse you of name calling? No I just said it's happening in this thread.

Or did the first page of this thread just suddenly disappear?

I'm not seeing it.

Try again.

[Skooterz]

I can see Zinda/Hal, but not Zinda/Hal/Helena.

Hal/Zinda/Ollie?


... maybe.



Stephanie died and we haven't seen their friendship in the past 5 years, and I don't think we've seen Cissie since YJ ended either.

Apparently you haven't read much Bat-family stuff lately... Don't want to Spoil it for you for you, if you catch my drift.



And I don't want to belabor this point, but if you had this scene with the genders reversed, people would be tearing their own heads off.

Imagine it.

HUNTRESS: I have a confession to make.

LADY BLACKHAWK: If it's about you with Green Arrow, Green Lantern, and a bottle of grappa, I already know about it. All I can say is, "Well played, ma'am."

HUNTRESS: You know about that?

LADY BLACKHAWK: Everyone knows about that. Even Starfire was impressed and she once did a three-way with Blue Beetle and Booster Gold.


I think the readers would have gotten a lynching party going by now.

I'm a guy and I'm not opposed to seeing something of the like. I don't think the readers would have quite the negative reaction that you seem to expect. Then again... I shouldn't underestimate people's ability to not be able to see past their own nose.

[Gail Simone]

I stress again that this tends to happen when a character isn't in a monthly series no matter what gender they are. If you need someone to be a punked or a buffoon, you almost always have to use someone who isn't being protected at that moment, and I think that's understandable.

[Jae Namkyoung]

I stress again that this tends to happen when a character isn't in a monthly series no matter what gender they are. If you need someone to be a punked or a buffoon, you almost always have to use someone who isn't being protected at that moment, and I think that's understandable.

More reasons why, Birds of Prey needs to come back...

Someone should protect our girls! They are worthy of that! Chuck and Gail have proved they can be written beautifully and maintain a good amount of sales! DC ANGERS ME SOMETIMES!

But, on this note: I don't follow the Justice Books no moar so I'm okay. I only pick up Bat Books and Wonder Woman/Secret Six for obvious reasons...

[Gail Simone]

Guys, please, there's no reason to make any of this personal for ANYONE.

Everyone has a different idea of what's sexy and I have no problem with the DCU females being sexy where it fits their character. Hell, I probably talk about DFU sex more in Secret Six than in most other four DCU titles.

And I think calling James Robinson a bad writer is simply indefensible. Starman? Golden Age?

That stuff is brilliant.

[Gail Simone]

Apparently you haven't read much Bat-family stuff lately... Don't want to Spoil it for you for you, if you catch my drift.




I'm a guy and I'm not opposed to seeing something of the like. I don't think the readers would have quite the negative reaction that you seem to expect. Then again... I shouldn't underestimate people's ability to not be able to see past their own nose.

You should have heard Peter David talking about the Shatterstar debacle. You put Ollie and Hall naked in the same bed and it doesn't matter if they're with the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders, there will be a huge uproar.

[4PointOh]

I stress again that this tends to happen when a character isn't in a monthly series no matter what gender they are. If you need someone to be a punked or a buffoon, you almost always have to use someone who isn't being protected at that moment, and I think that's understandable.

That's true. And sometimes, it doesn't matter at all whether you have an ongoing or not.

I can think of examples of Wonder Woman being used as "The Punk" or "The Buffoon" in JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA and SUPERMAN--and WONDER WOMAN has been an ongoing since 1942.

That SUPERMAN issue was written by Robinson, IIRC.

[Grazzt]

You should have heard Peter David talking about the Shatterstar debacle. You put Ollie and Hall naked in the same bed and it doesn't matter if they're with the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders, there will be a huge uproar.

On the other hand, there were people claiming Midnighter and Apollo were straight right up until they kissed. Despite them being introduced while naked together. IIRC, Warren Ellis was somewhat amused by this.

[Free-Man]

That's true. And sometimes, it doesn't matter at all whether you have an ongoing or not.

I can think of examples of Wonder Woman being used as "The Punk" or "The Buffoon" in JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA and SUPERMAN--and WONDER WOMAN been in an ongoing since 1942.

Well, I would say a good example of this would be the X-Men franchise. It's startling to see how many characters quickly became cannon fodder when their books ended.

And as for female friendships, while they certainly aren't BFFs, there is something of a friendship between Emma Frost and Storm, at least in Astonishing.

[AndrewCrossett]

More reasons why, Birds of Prey needs to come back...

Someone should protect our girls! They are worthy of that! Chuck and Gail have proved they can be written beautifully and maintain a good amount of sales!

Yes. The DCU is much poorer for the absence of BoP.

The fact that its characters are now being depicted as promiscuous bimbos in throwaway sex jokes is just... grating. Ten years and 127 issues, and that's the impression they made?

No.

[Indigo Al]

This does really seem to be about Hal Jordan more than anything else, doesn't it? Has Hal become the new recepticle of fan boy wish fulfillment?

[TCJohnson]

I wouldn't call it anger but disappointed.

The character was developed in one way, and we liked how the character was developed and the character she is became.

Now another writer is taking her in a completely different direction with a few throw away lines, and we are disappointed it in that.

Don't see what the big deal is.

[WorstThingUS]

Guys, please, there's no reason to make any of this personal for ANYONE.

Everyone has a different idea of what's sexy and I have no problem with the DCU females being sexy where it fits their character. Hell, I probably talk about DFU sex more in Secret Six than in most other four DCU titles.

And I think calling James Robinson a bad writer is simply indefensible. Starman? Golden Age?

That stuff is brilliant.

It's funny but it turns out I've actually been mirroring your argument on another thread (all the way down to the love of The Golden Age) and quoted your disagreement so I hope you don't mind.

[CBikle]

I'm a HUGE Hal Jordan fan, but there's no way he'd do what's being alluded to.... At least, not now.

He's very much involved with someone in his own book. (No, not Carol.) Even though it hasn't been fully explored, it's a relationship that seems to be solid and what Hal wants in his life when he's not being GL.

I think it pretty much had to happen recently, as ironically, Hal as Parallax is responsible for Lady Blackhawk existing in modern times (part of Zero Hour).

I suppose it's possible that the "alleged threeway" happened while he was the Spectre...

[greatmetropolitan]

I wouldn't call it anger but disappointed.

The character was developed in one way, and we liked how the character was developed and the character she is became.

Now another writer is taking her in a completely different direction with a few throw away lines, and we are disappointed it in that.

Don't see what the big deal is.

I wouldn't say that Robinson is even taking her in a new direction. It was a throwaway remark that could have been made about any two female superheroes that are kind of under the radar or B or C list. But, as is often the case with these characters, they happen to have been very well written and fleshed out in another book, so when a writer who maybe didn't read that book uses these characters, he pretty much does so as if they are blank slates.

It's really just a shame that it had to be those two names in particular. I imagine it was just a case of "damn, gimme the names of two girl superheroes who know each other! Quick!" "Uh, huntress and Lady Blackhawk?" "Sweet, that'll do"

[CBikle]

As I posted in another thread, the big event could have been nothing more than Hal doing body shots off of Zinda and Helena's navels at Guy Gardner's bar, which over time, gets exaggerated and that's where the "lothario" business comes in.

[FeminineMystique]

Yes. The DCU is much poorer for the absence of BoP.

The fact that its characters are now being depicted as promiscuous bimbos in throwaway sex jokes is just... grating. Ten years and 127 issues, and that's the impression they made?

No.

Well I would say I resent the term "Bimbo" being used just because they had casual sex. It's derogatory and unpleaseant darling.

Yes it was a badly written scene and I don't like it any more than anyone else here, more because of how out of character it is for the two in the DCU than anything else. But let's not fall into the trap of calling a woman a "Slut" or a "Bimbo" just because she's sexually active. I hear enough crap like that from my ex

[Jae Namkyoung]

Yes. The DCU is much poorer for the absence of BoP.

The fact that its characters are now being depicted as promiscuous bimbos in throwaway sex jokes is just... grating. Ten years and 127 issues, and that's the impression they made?

No.

-_- it is depressing...

My big thing is... the Birds of Prey was *my* childhood... I loved these characters since I was a kid

Yes... I grew up reading Gail Simone's works (XD)

So it makes me very sad... its like Michael Bay fucking someone's childhood... Oh wait... He's already done that...

Still. -_-

Not saying Gail should do it or Chuck. But someone who will treat these girls with respect! I love Starman and James Robinson... I just think this was done in POOR taste.

[Lester C.]

So unless something pops up later in the issue, it is canon that Hal had a threesome with Zinda and Huntress. And yet you all mocked me when I mentioned my theory that Zinda hooked up with Creote in a hot tub.:mad:

[AndrewCrossett]

Well I would say I resent the term "Bimbo" being used just because they had casual sex. It's derogatory and unpleaseant darling.

I'm sure Huntress and Zinda would both find this a derogatory situation.

Feel free to substitute the term of your choice. It's not the sex I'm judging, it's the screechingly bad mischaracterization.

[FeminineMystique]

-_- it is depressing...

My big thing is... the Birds of Prey was *my* childhood... I loved these characters since I was a kid

Yes... I grew up reading Gail Simone's works (XD)

So it makes me very sad... its like Michael Bay fucking someone's childhood... Oh wait... He's already done that...

Still. -_-

Not saying Gail should do it or Chuck. But someone who will treat these girls with respect! I love Starman and James Robinson... I just think this was done in POOR taste.

I've got a mental image of a mini-you with a big stack of BOP next to you. It's so sweet I think I'm going to do a fangirl "Squee" moment:biggrin:

And yeah, BOP REALLY needs to come back in some form or another, so these characters can get some decent stories written about them again, rather than being sidelined, ignored or used in some throwaway reference designed to make Hal Jordan look more macho. (I mean, yes, we get it. He's meant to be the manliest man who ever lived. You don't need to force that down our throats Robinson)

And this is all time that could be spent having Hal and Ollie yell "JUSTICE!" really loudly:tongue:

[Skooterz]

You should have heard Peter David talking about the Shatterstar debacle. You put Ollie and Hall naked in the same bed and it doesn't matter if they're with the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders, there will be a huge uproar.

Huh. I just Googled that. God people are stupid sometimes. "Oh, I'm not into this, so it must be morally wrong and bashed at every turn." I mean, jeez, I'm straight as an arrow, but I'm intelligent enough to not make broad sweeping generalizations about things like this, or dump on a writer because he followed fan suggestions.

[FeminineMystique]

I'm sure Huntress and Zinda would both find this a derogatory situation.

Feel free to substitute the term of your choice. It's not the sex I'm judging, it's the screechingly bad mischaracterization.

I get that darling, and I agree. If either of the characters had ever shown an interest in the same sex or each other in the DCU canon, fine, I could buy them having a threesome, though I doubt Huntress would be that into Hal. But as is, its just out of character

But calling them "Promiscuous bimbos", does make it sound like you're saying just because it's implied they had a threesome they automatically become "Sluttier", whether you meant it that way or not

Not having a go at you darling, just saying I disliked the choice of words. I'd say "Horribly OOC" just about covers it.

[shrike]

God it reads as fanfic. Poor, trashy fanfic.

I think Robinson's best work is already behind him, much like Byrne, Loeb, Claremont, etc etc, to be honest.

[galactica]

That's true. And sometimes, it doesn't matter at all whether you have an ongoing or not.

I can think of examples of Wonder Woman being used as "The Punk" or "The Buffoon" in JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA and SUPERMAN--and WONDER WOMAN has been an ongoing since 1942.

That SUPERMAN issue was written by Robinson, IIRC.

I think this is universal and the fact that it happens to WW is the rule not the exception. How many times has a new villain or hero showed up Superman to prove they are badass. How many times has a writer made Superman look like a naive toddler so that another characters can show him how things really are. I think it's a tried and true method for writers and it happens to every character from Superman to King Chimera.

[FeminineMystique]

God it reads as fanfic. Poor, trashy fanfic.

I think Robinson's best work is already behind him, much like Byrne, Loeb, Claremont, etc etc, to be honest.

Now c'mon, it's badly done but he's nowhere near as low as Loeb level yet.

[AaronJ]

(Let me stress that I am NOT telling this story to show what a "stud" I am -- haha, that's actually funny. Anyways ...)

I don't know. Years ago, I was drinking after work with a male and a female co-worker, and she suggested that we all go back to her place and have sex. Neither James nor I thought there was anything "gay" about it. I mean, there was this gorgeous, sexy, funny girl we both liked.

None of us ever regretted it or thought it was "degrading" or anything like that. It was just something that happened and we moved on.

Well, my relationship with her continued a while longer, until she broke my heart. But that's a different and boring story.

The point is, stuff like this happens, and there's nothing horrific or derogatory or "slutty" or anything else about it.


And I'm not even commenting on the page, since I don't even know what really happened there. But the comments about how people having these casual hook-ups is "fetishizing" them or "objectifying" them, or about how two guys in bed with one girl is going to be seen as "gay" or whatever else are just freakin' weird.

[galactica]

God it reads as fanfic. Poor, trashy fanfic.

I think Robinson's best work is already behind him, much like Byrne, Loeb, Claremont, etc etc, to be honest.

The first page aside, I think this is quite good. Certainly leaps ahead the first issue.

[Corrina]

Fiction is not like real life.

Fiction has to make sense.

[Skooterz]

Now c'mon, it's badly done but he's nowhere near as low as Loeb level yet.

Not many people can be compared to Loeb, buddy. Have you read Ultimatum? I literally could not think for 20 minutes after reading the last one. My brain was too busy going "Wait... but what, how?". Sad thing is, he used to be a decent writer...

Edit: I also meant to direct it to the post you quoted. My bad.

[AaronJ]

I think this is universal and the fact that it happens to WW is the rule not the exception. How many times has a new villain or hero showed up Superman to prove they are badass. How many times has a writer made Superman look like a naive toddler so that another characters can show him how things really are. I think it's a tried and true method for writers and it happens to every character from Superman to King Chimera.

Superman's written terribly more often than he's not. The fact that he has been written pretty damn well for the past couple years is more of a wonderful confluence of events and talent than it is the standard.

Do I need to even bring up all the "Superman cries every three pages!" whining?

[Gail Simone]

(Let me stress that I am NOT telling this story to show what a "stud" I am -- haha, that's actually funny. Anyways ...)

I don't know. Years ago, I was drinking after work with a male and a female co-worker, and she suggested that we all go back to her place and have sex. Neither James nor I thought there was anything "gay" about it. I mean, there was this gorgeous, sexy, funny girl we both liked.

None of us ever regretted it or thought it was "degrading" or anything like that. It was just something that happened and we moved on.

Well, my relationship with her continued a while longer, until she broke my heart. But that's a different and boring story.

The point is, stuff like this happens, and there's nothing horrific or derogatory or "slutty" or anything else about it.


And I'm not even commenting on the page, since I don't even know what really happened there. But the comments about how people having these casual hook-ups is "fetishizing" them or "objectifying" them, or about how two guys in bed with one girl is going to be seen as "gay" or whatever else are just freakin' weird.

I'm not judging anyone for having a threesome. People can have a twenty-seven-some for all I care.

It's these two particular characters who wouldn't do this just to make Hal look studly for the gillionth time this year.

[Free-Man]

Not many people can be compared to Loeb, buddy. Have you read Ultimatum? I literally could not think for 20 minutes after reading the last one. My brain was too busy going "Wait... but what, how?". Sad thing is, he used to be a decent writer...
Edit: I also meant to direct it to the post you quoted. My bad.

Sad but true. And if issue one of CFJ is any indication, I would say the same for Mr. Robinson.

[AaronJ]

I'm not judging anyone for having a threesome. People can have a twenty-seven-some for all I care.

It's these two particular characters who wouldn't do this just to make Hal look studly for the gillionth time this year.

I wasn't so much responding to you, as to some of the other comments I found strange.

It seemed to me like some people were saying that if you were in a threesome, or even had casual sex, that it was degrading and other bad things.

[spidervenom]

I love how you people become overtly obsessed with a throwaway line and cry foul. Seriously, this is more shameful then when everyone got red-faced and puffy over that megan fox wondy comment. I mean come on, isn't their better things to discuss, for shame. *Wags finger*.

[Matt Algren]

(Let me stress that I am NOT telling this story to show what a "stud" I am -- haha, that's actually funny. Anyways ...)

I don't know. Years ago, I was drinking after work with a male and a female co-worker, and she suggested that we all go back to her place and have sex. Neither James nor I thought there was anything "gay" about it. I mean, there was this gorgeous, sexy, funny girl we both liked.

None of us ever regretted it or thought it was "degrading" or anything like that. It was just something that happened and we moved on.

Well, my relationship with her continued a while longer, until she broke my heart. But that's a different and boring story.

The point is, stuff like this happens, and there's nothing horrific or derogatory or "slutty" or anything else about it.
In a comic book about a guy with a magic wishing ring*, it's a bit jarring.







* Character condensed by Kevin Church.

[Corrina]

I wasn't so much responding to you, as to some of the other comments I found strange.

It seemed to me like some people were saying that if you were in a threesome, or even had casual sex, that it was degrading and other bad things.

Well, the setup in this issue is what's degrading, not the situation.

They're used as props in a throwaway line to make Hal seem studlier.

I don't find the sexual situation degrading (though I do find it very out of character), I find the way the situation is in the story degrading.

If that makes sense.

[Jae Namkyoung]

I love how you people become overtly obsessed with a throwaway line and cry foul. Seriously, this is more shameful then when everyone got red-faced and puffy over that megan fox wondy comment. I mean come on, isn't their better things to discuss, for shame. *Wags finger*.

This suddenly reminds me of this: Monthy Python and the Holy Grail, French Taunting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs&feature=related

Which can only be cured by: Star Trek meeting Monty Python

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luVjkTEIoJc

Sorry, I think we've all made our points, we do not agree with how Huntress and Lady Blackhawk were used.

[shrike]

I love how you people become overtly obsessed with a throwaway line and cry foul. Seriously, this is more shameful then when everyone got red-faced and puffy over that megan fox wondy comment. I mean come on, isn't their better things to discuss, for shame. *Wags finger*.

Feel free to start a thread on something more interesting. I find it odd that you are reading this thread in the first place if you feel this way... it makes you just as much a part of it, ya think? LOL :rolleyes:

[spidervenom]

This suddenly reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs&feature=related

How did you know I was french? :biggrin:

[Free-Man]

Well, the setup in this issue is what's degrading, not the situation.

They're used as props in a throwaway line to make Hal seem studlier.

I don't find the sexual situation degrading (though I do find it very out of character), I find the way the situation is in the story degrading.

If that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense. It's almost bad as Austen having She-Hulk get fucked by Juggarnaught.

[Jae Namkyoung]

How did you know I was french? :biggrin:

Just a wild guess :biggrin:

[Flamebird]

How did you know I was french? :biggrin:

It's the accent. Dead giveaway.

[Gail Simone]

I love how you people become overtly obsessed with a throwaway line and cry foul. Seriously, this is more shameful then when everyone got red-faced and puffy over that megan fox wondy comment. I mean come on, isn't their better things to discuss, for shame. *Wags finger*.

Thank you for adding nothing.

For shame!

<wags finger, makes 'harrumphing' sound, audibly tut-tuts>

[Spackling Compound]

The expansive world of fantasy is also a place where dead people don't stay dead, heroes do unheroic things and villains are cheered for.

Science, magic and religion coexist peacefully and in creative tension with one another.

Sex and commerce are the stuff of fantasy. A man can make millions from his father dying so he can afford to wear bat-ears and have a belt with little packets of gas in it. He can also have an unrequited passionate affair with his teen ward. Another man can learn to become an archer on an island and use his millions to finance his Robin Hood act. He can also shudder with passion at the sight of his young male protegee's rear end in tights.

So why not foursomes, threesomes, eightsomes, mansomes, girlsomes, boysomes and deadsomes? It's fantasy!

Just remember, someone will retcon it soon enough and...

Don't try this at home.

[FeminineMystique]

(Let me stress that I am NOT telling this story to show what a "stud" I am -- haha, that's actually funny. Anyways ...)

I don't know. Years ago, I was drinking after work with a male and a female co-worker, and she suggested that we all go back to her place and have sex. Neither James nor I thought there was anything "gay" about it. I mean, there was this gorgeous, sexy, funny girl we both liked.

None of us ever regretted it or thought it was "degrading" or anything like that. It was just something that happened and we moved on.

Well, my relationship with her continued a while longer, until she broke my heart. But that's a different and boring story.

The point is, stuff like this happens, and there's nothing horrific or derogatory or "slutty" or anything else about it.


And I'm not even commenting on the page, since I don't even know what really happened there. But the comments about how people having these casual hook-ups is "fetishizing" them or "objectifying" them, or about how two guys in bed with one girl is going to be seen as "gay" or whatever else are just freakin' weird.

For the record, I completely agree with you darling. There's nothing slutty about a threesome, I don't think anyones arguing that point

What they are saying is that the two characters in question are REALLY unlikely to have a threesome together so it comes across as OOC and just a way to make Hal Jordan to seem more like a "Ladies man".

[shrike]

DUDE BUST THE ROCK I JUST HEARD YOU $#@&ED THE $#@! OUTTA TWO BITCHES, WOOOHOO!

Seriously, this is what the conversation felt like on that page to me.

[FeminineMystique]

The expansive world of fantasy is also a place where dead people don't stay dead, heroes do unheroic things and villains are cheered for.

Science, magic and religion coexist peacefully and in creative tension with one another.

Sex and commerce are the stuff of fantasy. A man can make millions from his father dying so he can afford to wear bat-ears and have a belt with little packets of gas in it. He can also have an unrequited passionate affair with his teen ward. Another man can learn to become an archer on an island and use his millions to finance his Robin Hood act. He can also shudder with passion at the sight of his young male protegee's rear end in tights.

So why not foursomes, threesomes, eightsomes, mansomes, girlsomes, boysomes and deadsomes? It's fantasy!

Just remember, someone will retcon it soon enough and...

Don't try this at home.

With regards to foursomes, threesomes and eightsomes...too late for that:wink:

[Jae Namkyoung]

I've got a mental image of a mini-you with a big stack of BOP next to you. It's so sweet I think I'm going to do a fangirl "Squee" moment:biggrin:

And yeah, BOP REALLY needs to come back in some form or another, so these characters can get some decent stories written about them again, rather than being sidelined, ignored or used in some throwaway reference designed to make Hal Jordan look more macho. (I mean, yes, we get it. He's meant to be the manliest man who ever lived. You don't need to force that down our throats Robinson)

And this is all time that could be spent having Hal and Ollie yell "JUSTICE!" really loudly:tongue:

LOL!

Ooooh yes.... ^_^ I did mention, that the LCS owner actually pulled BoP for me since I was a young one.

Always had it on the counter for me when I came in. ^_^

Oh dear time for a silly walk.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqhlQfXUk7w&feature=related

[spidervenom]

Feel free to start a thread on something more interesting. I find it odd that you are reading this thread in the first place if you feel this way... it makes you just as much a part of it, ya think? LOL :rolleyes:

Of course it makes me a part of it. I just think it's silly how people get mad when people get mad at a little throwaway line that was meant as a joke. It was for a small chuckle, thats all. It doesn't disrespect the characters. I'm sorry that I intentially came off strong.

[FeminineMystique]

In a comic book about a guy with a magic wishing ring*, it's a bit jarring.







* Character condensed by Kevin Church.

I wouldn't call it jarring. Sexuality has been an obvious facet to superhero comics since the mid to late 80s in one way or another. If it turned up in a silver age comic then I'd have a case of WTF but in a modern comic, it's not jarring.


LOL!

Ooooh yes.... ^_^ I did mention, that the LCS owner actually pulled BoP for me since I was a young one.

Always had it on the counter for me when I came in. ^_^

Oh dear time for a silly walk.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqhlQfXUk7w&feature=related

Awww, that's pretty cool of them. Nice to know you had good taste, even when little :)

And it's always time for a silly walk

[Jae Namkyoung]

I wouldn't call it jarring. Sexuality has been an obvious facet to superhero comics since the mid to late 80s in one way or another. If it turned up in a silver age comic then I'd have a case of WTF but in a modern comic, it's not jarring.



Awww, that's pretty cool of them. Nice to know you had good taste, even when little :)

And it's always time for a silly walk

Well yes and I must say:

YOU ALL ARE POORLY ARGUING!

Perhaps you should go to an argument clinic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM&NR=1)

Well Spider, I believe its quite silly to carry on for 5 pages (i have it set on 40 posts per page) thats all.

[Typo Lad]

I mean come on, isn't their better things to discuss, for shame. *Wags finger*.

Like people who say "isn't" when it should be "aren't"?

[Spackling Compound]

Like people who say "isn't" when it should be "aren't"?

And "their" instead of "there". Maybe it's a typo.

[WorstThingUS]

So unless something pops up later in the issue, it is canon that Hal had a threesome with Zinda and Huntress. And yet you all mocked me when I mentioned my theory that Zinda hooked up with Creote in a hot tub.:mad:

But Creote was clearly established as gay, right?

And as Gail and Chuck Dixon have done before with The Huntress it's only canon until they fix it. Just as when Devin Grayson made her into this sad case who tried to sleep her way into the Bat-family with Nightwing, they made it into an actual attempt at something more (though there was nothing saving her fling with Roy). Likewise this is prime fodder for the difference between what men think happened and what women know happened.

[shrike]

And "their" instead of "there". Maybe it's a typo.

And 'your' instead of 'you are' and 'you're'. God, I hate that one.

[spidervenom]

Like people who say "isn't" when it should be "aren't"?

I said I was sorry. If I offended you, I apoligise. I just get really pissed off when people try to pound a writer a new one over one little line. I should have held more restraint when I wanted to talk about this issue instead of coming off as a babbling moron.

[Spackling Compound]

But Creote was clearly established as gay, right?

And as Gail and Chuck Dixon have done before with The Huntress it's only canon until they fix it. Just as when Devin Grayson made her into this sad case who tried to sleep her way into the Bat-family with Nightwing, they made it into an actual attempt at something more (though there was nothing saving her fling with Roy). Likewise this is prime fodder for the difference between what men think happened and what women know happened.

I'm waiting on the retcon where it's revealed Sue just merely forgot the safety word while playing with Dr. Light....

[shrike]

But Creote was clearly established as gay, right?



With writers nowadays does it even SEEM to matter to most what has already been clearly established?

Hell, next time we see Creote he'll probably be thumbing through Playboys before three female hookers show up at his door for some sexytimes.

[Typo Lad]

I said I was sorry. If I offended you, I apoligise. I just get really pissed off when people try to pound a writer in the ass over one little line.

Except people aren't doing that. There's a massive gap (no pun intended) between being critical and pounding someone in the ass.

[Jae Namkyoung]

I said I was sorry. If I offended you, I apoligise. I just get really pissed off when people try to pound a writer in the ass over one little line.

Now now Spider, it's alright. Obviously five pages (on forty posts per page) is only the beginning! Perhaps it will topple the Coulter thread. :evilsmile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE&NR=1 Yes...yes, more youtubes of Monty Python, might as well plug laughs in. It's the last one I promise. :evilsmile:

[Matt Algren]

I said I was sorry. If I offended you, I apoligise. I just get really pissed off when people try to pound a writer a new one over one little line.
It's called "fisting", and perfectly normal people do it all the time.

[shrike]

It's called "fisting", and perfectly normal people do it all the time.

... but is it a slutty thing to do? That's the real question.

[AndrewCrossett]

Now now Spider, it's alright. Obviously five pages (on forty posts per page) is only the beginning! Perhaps it will topple the Coulter thread. :evilsmile:

We would do well to fear such a thing.

Got a ways to go to catch the Olney thread.

[spidervenom]

Ok, now I want to ask. Whats the need to be critical over a little joke/throwaway line. If he wanted to disrespect them, He could do alot worse.

[FeminineMystique]

... but is it a slutty thing to do? That's the real question.

If it is, I wear my "slut" badge with pride:wink:


Now now Spider, it's alright. Obviously five pages (on forty posts per page) is only the beginning! Perhaps it will topple the Coulter thread. :evilsmile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE&NR=1 Yes...yes, more youtubes of Monty Python, might as well plug laughs in. It's the last one I promise. :evilsmile:

You can never have too much Python:biggrin:

[Matt Algren]

... but is it a slutty thing to do? That's the real question.
Depends. Did you bring your own gloves?

[Jae Namkyoung]

If it is, I wear my "slut" badge with pride:wink:



You can never have too much Python:biggrin:

May I borrow that badge, then? It seems, that em I've lost mine you see.

Oh wait... Buggar, I never had one! Ta!

Well then, perhaps a few writing of fem slash shall earn me one then? Believe, Isis over on the Traitor Game is well on her way, all in good fun then. I must say... NI!

[FeminineMystique]

May I borrow that badge, then? It seems, that em I've lost mine you see.

Oh wait... Buggar, I never had one! Ta!

Well then, perhaps a few writing of fem slash shall earn me one then? Believe, Isis over on the Traitor Game is well on her way, all in good fun then. I must say... NI!

Gah! My badge has been stolen! Alright...alright you can keep it. Just don't say Ni at me a second time!:biggrin: :wink:

And Isis is the Fem-Slash queen of Tratitor Game. I think I like her and the Stepford Cuckoo pairing the best, mainly because you can't go wrong with a stunning super powered goddess and a sexy blonde telepath:smile:

[AaronJ]

It's called "fisting", and perfectly normal people do it all the time.

Speaking of fisting ... and totally unrelated to the topic at "hand" (sorry, couldn't resist), Kayden Kross' last two tweets:

"I'm on a mainstream set and there's an enema pack and it's making me nervous."

"Damn there's a box of condoms here too. I feel right at home."


It made me laugh, anyways.

[Jae Namkyoung]

Gah! My badge has been stolen! Alright...alright you can keep it. Just don't say Ni at me a second time!:biggrin: :wink:

And Isis is the Fem-Slash queen of Tratitor Game. I think I like her and the Stepford Cuckoo pairing the best, mainly because you can't go wrong with a stunning super powered goddess and a sexy blonde telepath:smile:

Ah yes... its stunning, beautiful and so much fun to write :evilsmile:

Now then, I shall take this badge and use it wisely. Remember children do not attempt this at home. Of course now where did I put that disco stick ...

Sorry can't help it, the Hairdressers Expedition to Everest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F2SJS6B1wQ&feature=related

[Justin D.]

I could see Lady Blackhawk, actually. Two pilots having some sexy fun, okay, I get that.

But I hate to see Huntress get branded as a slut again. The whole point of the Josh story was for her to realize she deserved better.

And I can't see them doing a threesome, that affects their friendship, and the Birds were ALREADY one of the very few books about female friendship which is so fucking rare in comics it might as well be moonbeans captured in mason jars. Not that friends can't have sex, but once again, this is all about the man, and "Well played, sir" is just, ugh.

I love James Robinson. But I really feel like most writers of mainstream comics get the sex thing all wrong over and over. It's all wink wink nudge nudge and women as trophies and thumbs up and it seems so weird and off-character to me.

But I haven't read it in context and I'm just the dumb girl anyway.

But James Robinson is a great writer, he's never written anything I didn't enjoy in comics and I still think Silver Age is an underrated classic. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But it does feel weird that people can read bop and still come away with the impression that THAT Huntress and THAT Lady Blackhawk would get drunk and be someone's sad Penthouse fantasy.

It just shows again that Bop was an important book for a lot of reasons and its absence is keenly felt in the portrayal of female characters in the DCU. Not my bop specifically, just the book overall.

This makes sense to me. With the relationship these characters have and their personalities, I can't see them having a threesome either. If Huntress moved past the "whatever, as long as it feels good and doesn't hurt someone" phase, then it devolves the character to have her go back to that behavior.


In re-reading it, I do think the two guys are acting in character...GA being a bit of a dick, betraying his liberal beliefs as he often does (you can't be a feminist and still slap your buddy on the back for his vagina scoreboard), and GL trying not to talk about it seems pretty truthful to me.

It's a good scene, just wish they had used someone other than the Huntress. Zinda I can see, but together with the Huntress is really unfortunate for a lot of reasons.

This also makes sense to me. However, the conversation is not just in character for those guys, but for most guys. Hell, I'll take that farther and say it's in character for people who feel comfortable talking about sex, no matter the gender. It happens all the time, and I'm not sure why people are so surprised it happened here. If two friends have sex, you can bet that someone is going to ask one of them how the other was in bed. And most likely, that person asking will be friends with both of them too. Some people are comfortable, curious, and can be light-hearted about sex. Other can't. I say "light-hearted" because I can't see anything to get upset about with the line "Well played, sir". He found out his friend had sex with two hot women at the same time. Seems like a standard, jokey congratulatory comment.


And I don't want to belabor this point, but if you had this scene with the genders reversed, people would be tearing their own heads off.

Imagine it.

HUNTRESS: I have a confession to make.

LADY BLACKHAWK: If it's about you with Green Arrow, Green Lantern, and a bottle of grappa, I already know about it. All I can say is, "Well played, ma'am."

HUNTRESS: You know about that?

LADY BLACKHAWK: Everyone knows about that. Even Starfire was impressed and she once did a three-way with Blue Beetle and Booster Gold.

I think the readers would have gotten a lynching party going by now.

Actually, these days, that might fit in perfectly with the jokes about Hal and Ollie being a big too close.


Well, there's a weird double standard operating there, where in MMF threesomes, there's not the same assumption of homosexual interaction between the two guys as there is between the two women in an MFF threesome. (There's even a dumb little joke about it, where there's a supposed rule that "it's not gay as long as your balls don't touch.") This is akin to the double standard where two women making out is awesome, but two guys making out is gross. So sadly, even if Hal, Ollie and Dinah were all to spend a wild night in Monte Carlo together (and I think we can all agree that Gail's Dinah would kick both men's testicles into their tracheas for even suggesting it), there wouldn't be the same implication that there is here.

Nail hit on head.


Shitty throwaway jokes by otherwise good writers are offensive.

As is fetishizing all women in comics.

This doesn't fetishize all women in comics. I'm not even sure it can count as fetishizing Huntress and Lady Blackhawk (that was a weird sentence to type), because they'll move on from this as the same characters they were before it.


I stress again that this tends to happen when a character isn't in a monthly series no matter what gender they are. If you need someone to be a punked or a buffoon, you almost always have to use someone who isn't being protected at that moment, and I think that's understandable.

This is completely true.


Well, the setup in this issue is what's degrading, not the situation.

They're used as props in a throwaway line to make Hal seem studlier.

I don't find the sexual situation degrading (though I do find it very out of character), I find the way the situation is in the story degrading.

If that makes sense.

What makes them props? The fact that they're not the ones saying it? That they're not there? Would anyone ever be able to talk about sex with another person without turning that other person into a prop if he/she doesn't have the explicit permission of said other person? That sentence was complicated.

Also, hasn't Hal always been a bit of a slut? When did people start making him a virtuous prude who doesn't talk about sex? Or am I completely wrong in thinking that?

None of my questions are meant antagonistically, by the way.

[Lester C.]

I hate to break this to you guys, but this is only the beginning. Now that Huntress and Zinda don't have books they, like so many characters of canceled books before them, are going to have things go poorly for them in the books of those that are still in circulation.

[jrp001]

well the dialogue seems to suggest that "this" happened a while ago... maybe pre FC maybe pre BC/GL wedding

so there is one quick easy retcon... Huntress was really Everyman... and Zinda knew (was on assignment from Babs) and was faking it all...

so really the joke is on Hal for doing IT with a cannibal.

[FeminineMystique]

Ah yes... its stunning, beautiful and so much fun to write :evilsmile:

Now then, I shall take this badge and use it wisely. Remember children do not attempt this at home. Of course now where did I put that disco stick ...

Sorry can't help it, the Hairdressers Expedition to Everest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F2SJS6B1wQ&feature=related

I wanna take a ride on your disco stick:biggrin:

Yes, I quote Gaga without shame:biggrin:

[Corrina]

I hate to break this to you guys, but this is only the beginning. Now that Huntress and Zinda don't have books they, like so many characters of canceled books before them, are going to have things go poorly for them in the books of those that are still in circulation.

i think this is why the ire.

We're not too happy they don't have a book anymore and now they show up as props in another story. If they had an on-going and someone made a joke in another comic that was OCC, people would probably shrug for the most part.

I think the concern is if a good writing like Robinson sets up the characters this way, what's next?

[shrike]

Also, hasn't Hal always been a bit of a slut?

Slut, no... pedophile, slightly... though they carefully curbed that Arisia thing by tossing in later her race was long lived.

[Jae Namkyoung]

I wanna take a ride on your disco stick:biggrin:

Yes, I quote Gaga without shame:biggrin:

Well now, you will just have to face the perils of Castle Anthrax now won't you? Dear, dear, what will you do.

[Free-Man]

Well now, you will just have to face the perils of Castle Anthrax now won't you? Dear, dear, what will you do.

Not funny Jae. Antrhax kills....good taste.

[Jae Namkyoung]

Not funny Jae. Antrhax kills....good taste.

Anthrax is a killer! With its temptations! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjio-F47IfM)

[FeminineMystique]

Well now, you will just have to face the perils of Castle Anthrax now won't you? Dear, dear, what will you do.

I think I can do it. It will be tough but I will boldly brave the..."Perils" of Castle Anthrax.

The sacrifices a heroic and noble heroine like me has to make:wink:

[Jae Namkyoung]

I think I can do it. It will be tough but I will boldly brave the..."Perils" of Castle Anthrax.

The sacrifices a heroic and noble heroine like me has to make:wink:

Oh yes it is indeed a perilous place filled perils that STRIKE FEAR into the hearts of ALL MEN! WITH ITS PERILING PERILS THAT ARE PERILOUS! Indeed.

[Lester C.]

i think this is why the ire.

We're not too happy they don't have a book anymore and now they show up as props in another story. If they had an on-going and someone made a joke in another comic that was OCC, people would probably shrug for the most part.

I think the concern is if a good writing like Robinson sets up the characters this way, what's next?

What's next is that they be killed off to make a villain or hero look good. The last this happened was a favorite character of mine, Anima, died horribly in a Prometheus one-shot.

[AndrewCrossett]

What's next is that they be killed off to make a villain or hero look good. The last this happened was a favorite character of mine, Anima, died horribly in a Prometheus one-shot.

Happened to my favorite character on "Heroes." (Elle)

Oddly enough, that was the last episode of "Heroes" I watched.

Oh well. As we know, "canon" in the DCU is as stable as quicksand mixed with greased marbles. I consider Gail the last word on Zinda's character and probably the best authority on Helena's. I don't consider James Robinson either, although he may be a perfectly good writer most of the time. (I don't know as I've ever read anything by him).

I say Helena and Zinda wouldn't have done this. Gail agrees. So as far as I'm concerned, it's retconned out of existence effective.....

Now.

[Linkara]

O_O;

Wow, Robinson's really off his game with this series. Did he get in the head after Starman or the New Krypton stuff?

[Jae Namkyoung]

Happened to my favorite character on "Heroes." (Elle)

Oddly enough, that was the last episode of "Heroes" I watched.

Oh well. As we know, "canon" in the DCU is as stable as quicksand mixed with greased marbles. I consider Gail the last word on Zinda's character and probably the best authority on Helena's. I don't consider James Robinson either, although he may be a perfectly good writer most of the time. (I don't know as I've ever read anything by him).

I say Helena and Zinda wouldn't have done this. Gail agrees. So as far as I'm concerned, it's retconned out of existence effective.....

Now.

Nice...

http://www.godfathers.com/wfdata/frame397-1043/Cookie.jpg

[FeminineMystique]

Oh yes it is indeed a perilous place filled perils that STRIKE FEAR into the hearts of ALL MEN! WITH ITS PERILING PERILS THAT ARE PERILOUS! Indeed.

I've arrived but it turns out that my badge isn't here at all! They were using a bright light, SHAPED like my badge to trick me into coming!:wink:

[Jae Namkyoung]

I've arrived but it turns out that my badge isn't here at all! They were using a bright light, SHAPED like my badge to trick me into coming!:wink:

HOW DARE THEY! I shall save you! After I eat...

http://images.celebrateexpress.com/mgen/merchandiser/50991.jpg

[FeminineMystique]

HOW DARE THEY! I shall save you! After I eat...

http://images.celebrateexpress.com/mgen/merchandiser/50991.jpg

My god that cake is AWESOME:biggrin: I don't blame you for going for that first:smile:

[Jae Namkyoung]

My god that cake is AWESOME:biggrin: I don't blame you for going for that first:smile:

:evilsmile: Indeed... Considering I didn't get a birthday cake... for my Birthday

[FeminineMystique]

:evilsmile: Indeed... Considering I didn't get a birthday cake... for my Birthday

Awwww, that's so sad.:frown: *Big snuggles* At least you have Bat-Cake now (All things related to Batman must have Bat somewhere in their name:biggrin: )

[Matt Algren]

What's next is that they be killed off to make a villain or hero look good. The last this happened was a favorite character of mine, Anima, died horribly in a Prometheus one-shot.
So you were the one who liked her.

[Gail Simone]

Eh, in the end, this is really not that big a deal. It's phrased in such a way that even though a threesome is clearly implied, we can imagine it means something else if we want.

And I want. :)

I figure they played skee-ball, and Metamorpho envied their high scores.

[Free-Man]

Eh, in the end, this is really not that big a deal. It's phrased in such a way that even though a threesome is clearly implied, we can imagine it means something else if we want.

And I want. :)

I figure they played skee-ball, and Metamorpho envied their high scores.

Nope. Hal just beat both women at an innocent game of Twister, thus making the flexable Metamorpho jealous.

[jrp001]

Eh, in the end, this is really not that big a deal. It's phrased in such a way that even though a threesome is clearly implied, we can imagine it means something else if we want.

And I want. :)

I figure they played skee-ball, and Metamorpho envied their high scores.

with the mention of Skee-ball, I now want the Six to face off against angry carnies

[FeminineMystique]

Nope. Hal just beat both women at an innocent game of Twister, thus making the flexable Metamorpho jealous.

You can have innocent games of Twister?!:eek: I'm playing it wrong:tongue:

Oh god...Hal Jordan...contorted...the mental images...they burrrnnnnnn:eek:

[Dr Ray Palmer]

Ugh. OK, I'm imagining that what actually happened was that Hal grossly suggested a threesome, so Zinda and Helena went back to his place, tied him to his bed, and took his ring out for a spin around the solar system.

[Gail Simone]

Ugh. OK, I'm imagining that what actually happened was that Hal grossly suggested a threesome, so Zinda and Helena went back to his place, tied him to his bed, and took his ring out for a spin around the solar system.

HAAAAAWWKKKKKKKKKKAAAAAAAAA!

[FeminineMystique]

HAAAAAWWKKKKKKKKKKAAAAAAAAA!

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

I like this theory. It has Green Lantern Zinda and Huntress AND bondage:wink:

[Dr Ray Palmer]

HAAAAAWWKKKKKKKKKKAAAAAAAAA!

Hee. It would be the best issue of Brave & the Bold ever!

[Karl O'Neill]

Guys, I love HAL JORDAN and hate when they protray him as the ubur slut but I don't think that's what is happening here.

Ollie is being funny and hal is shugging him off.

No harm done.

[JKCarrier]

And while we're at it, since when was Rex Mason ever a "lothario"? And who still uses the word "lothario", anyway? I know Ollie's supposed to be getting up there in age, but he wasn't born in the 1800s...

[PatrickG]

Hey, now...

It doesn't say WHAT happened with Hal, Huntress, Dinah, Lady Blackhawk and that bottle of grappa.

I actually dig running gags/nods like this and would probably reference this a few more times before setting up a punchline where we find out that it was that Hal got roped into playing spin-the-bottle with the Birds of Prey, kissed Zinda and she said he was the worst kisser she'd ever met.

The great thing about this as a setup is that it implies something too shocking to show on panel. It can be a running thing. And then have a funny payoff.

And with a payoff like mine, it maintains Hal as both "hunk" and ladies' man, pairs him off with Lady Blackhawk (the only one he has real chemistry with) and then builds on her fish-out-of-water character.

And it would be kinda funny to establish Hal having a crush/awkwardness with Zinda. She's a pilot. She's his "type" in the same ways Cowgirl is. It builds on both characters to have Hal make a move and get shut down and it becomes a great little character bit for the two of them to be awkward in super-hero group shots.

[Crowley]

Eh, in the end, this is really not that big a deal. It's phrased in such a way that even though a threesome is clearly implied, we can imagine it means something else if we want.

And I want. :)

I figure they played skee-ball, and Metamorpho envied their high scores.

I imagined that Zinda saw Hal and wanted a piece of him but needed Helena to tag along.

So while Huntress was bored at the bar as Hal and Zinda went to town, Helena was texting Dinah.

Dinah relayed the story to Ollie and Ollie misinterpreted it.

Ollie mentions this to Hal and Hal's brain immediately is like... how'd you know about Zinda? Not even taking into account what Ollie was fully saying.

[K-DoG7p7]

why does everyone assume Ollie misinterpreted something..

[AaronJ]

why does everyone assume Ollie misinterpreted something..

One could ask why everyone assumes anything from one page, taken completely out of context.

But that would diminish all the ability to be outraged.

[Karl O'Neill]

why does everyone assume Ollie misinterpreted something..

Because your fan character has a bow and arrow and cheats and his girls.

he sucks.

[K-DoG7p7]

Because your fan character has a bow and arrow and cheats and his girls.

he sucks.
and his girls?

[AaronJ]

and his girls?

No, no, no.

The correct response is:

Oh yeah?! Well, your FACE sucks!

[K-DoG7p7]

I have never seen General Grievousssss face so I dont know if it suck.. but then agan most people have a mouth on their face and that sucks, and blows!

[Gail Simone]

I imagined that Zinda saw Hal and wanted a piece of him but needed Helena to tag along.

So while Huntress was bored at the bar as Hal and Zinda went to town, Helena was texting Dinah.

Dinah relayed the story to Ollie and Ollie misinterpreted it.

Ollie mentions this to Hal and Hal's brain immediately is like... how'd you know about Zinda? Not even taking into account what Ollie was fully saying.

Zinda likes BIG guys.

[Crowley]

why does everyone assume Ollie misinterpreted something..

Because Ollie is a fucked up dude. And because men in relationships often misinterpret shit... We try not to, but it happens. Especially to someone as narcissistic as Ollie.

[stealthwise]

I've only read the first dozen or so posts in this thread, but yeah, that image from the comic just comes across as... lame and fratboyish. I guess it works if you've got Owen Wilson as Hal and Vince Vaughan as Ollie, but it didn't read as very interesting nor funny, and I'm kind of wondering what the hell that page will do to enhance the plot of the overall story.

[jrp001]

Didn't anybody see comment two pages later... that Ollie misses Dinah... but REALLY misses star city...

[spidervenom]

I've only read the first dozen or so posts in this thread, but yeah, that image from the comic just comes across as... lame and fratboyish. I guess it works if you've got Owen Wilson as Hal and Vince Vaughan as Ollie, but it didn't read as very interesting nor funny, and I'm kind of wondering what the hell that page will do to enhance the plot of the overall story.

I think it was a throw away line/ joke that's being way over analyzed.

[jrp001]

I think it was a throw away line/ joke that's being way over analyzed.


See, I want to read it as a throw away line and laugh at it... but it's just not something Helena would do... in fact it most likely would be result in massive beat down on Hal the moment the topic came up...

I mean there are lots and lots of fem-fatales in gotham that would do it, but not these two...

[jrp001]

double post....

[ScottyQuick]

Zinda likes BIG guys.

...

You know, Bane's single.

[Crowley]

Zinda likes BIG guys.

wait is this a reference to where people wear their wallets?