Favorite/Least Favorite Batman Writers

[yadadaimhollaing]

Hey guys as a person whos going to start reading batman soon i was wondering who is generally considered the top of the line batman creators and who isnt so well remembered. Since ive been mainly a marvel reader i dont know much about top tier DC writers. My extent of bat knowledge is limited to denny oneil being remembered well, grant morrison being hit or miss, and i think paul dinis highly regarded.

I searched for a similar thread but unfortunatly the search function on cbr doesnt work so well :frown:

[WorstThingUS]

Oddly, rather than jump to Winnick, I'm going to say Doug Moench. It was actually his work on Batman in the 80's that was so bad Jason Todd had to be killed as a result (he did the retcon of Jason as street punk than a circus kid). He once tried to write a Batman story with a Mayan plot because he saw a drawing that Walter Simonsen did first. It was god-awful. And Nocturne...shudder. So, so bad.

[Spiffy]

On the negative end, I was gonna knee-jerk blurt out "Jeph Loeb", based on the crap he's putting out these days, but then I thought about it and his Batman work wasn't nearly as bad as Red Hulk or Ultimatum are.

[mofo]

I don't know the name of the story....I think it was released as a prestige format or something...

It was about Batman infiltrating some top secret government facility to discover that.... GASP!... aliens exist!! He was so damn shocked my cat scratched my leg

Seriously...whoever wrote this story....what the fuuuu----dge
One word: Superman
Two more words: Martian Manhunter

And to top it all of, the story was shit.

BONUS SECOND WORST BATMAN WRITER: Whoever wrote the "City of Light" miniseries. You turned Batman into Bat-ape

[ryerye17]

Oddly, rather than jump to Winnick, I'm going to say Doug Moench. It was actually his work on Batman in the 80's that was so bad Jason Todd had to be killed as a result (he did the retcon of Jason as street punk than a circus kid). He once tried to write a Batman story with a Mayan plot because he saw a drawing that Walter Simonsen did first. It was god-awful. And Nocturne...shudder. So, so bad.

hey...i love Winick. LOL

[AJM]

The most popular are the usual suspects: Frank Miller, Paul Dini, Grant Morrison and Denny O'Neill, but i don't think anyone would agree that they're universally loved. I find a lot of Dini's stuff to be a little cliched and repetitive, and i think Miller's work post-80s is almost roundly terrible. I'm a big fan of Morrison's stuff - even when it isn't wholly successful, it's at least interesting and original, and just about anything by Denny O'Neill did with Neal Adams is great, they were a wonderful team in the 1970s. All of these writers are easily accessible via TPBs. And Alan Moore's Killing Joke is great too.

Going back further, there are the Batman Chronicles series which reprints all Batman stories from the beginning, so the very early stuff by creators Bob Kane and Bill Finger is readily available too. Certainly the first volume of Chronicles is essential. Jeph Loeb's stuff was very popular too - Hush and Long Halloween etc. - but i don't particularly care for it, in fact i think it's probably the most highly overrated material in recent years.

All the above only really refers to TPBs though, because i imagine that's what you're looking for. A lot of people have fond feelings for uncollected runs but that's a whole new adventure...

[Batman Fan 31593]

In my personal opinion:

Favorite Writers who have worked on Batman - Bill Finger, Frank Robbins, Denny O'Neil, Steve Englehart, Gerry Conway, Doug Moench, Frank Miller, Alan Grant, Chuck Dixon, Greg Rucka, Ed Brubaker, Paul Dini, Grant Morrison

Least Favorite Writers who have worked on Batman - Larry Hama, Judd Winick, A.J. Lieberman, Frank Miller


Fortunately for Batman, regardless of personal opinion, I think it's safe to say that the number of good writers far outweights the number of bad writers. There's a reason he's been around for 70 years.

[yadadaimhollaing]

The most popular are the usual suspects: Frank Miller, Paul Dini, Grant Morrison and Denny O'Neill, but i don't think anyone would agree that they're universally loved. I find a lot of Dini's stuff to be a little cliched and repetitive, and i think Miller's work post-80s is almost roundly terrible. I'm a big fan of Morrison's stuff - even when it isn't wholly successful, it's at least interesting and original, and just about anything by Denny O'Neill did with Neal Adams is great, they were a wonderful team in the 1970s. All of these writers are easily accessible via TPBs. And Alan Moore's Killing Joke is great too.

Going back further, there are the Batman Chronicles series which reprints all Batman stories from the beginning, so the very early stuff by creators Bob Kane and Bill Finger is readily available too. Certainly the first volume of Chronicles is essential. Jeph Loeb's stuff was very popular too - Hush and Long Halloween etc. - but i don't particularly care for it, in fact i think it's probably the most highly overrated material in recent years.

All the above only really refers to TPBs though, because i imagine that's what you're looking for. A lot of people have fond feelings for uncollected runs but that's a whole new adventure...

Im actually collecting issues and not trades. I was looking to start with trades but there are enough out of print and expensive that made me look into collecting singles. Luckily the majority of the issues are affordable after year one.

Isnt the majority of the denny oneil stuff done before year one? Outside of 2 trades (tales of the demon and one from the legends of the dark knight series) off top of my head i cant think of more by oneil.

[Batman was taken]

In my personal opinion:

Favorite Writers who have worked on Batman - Bill Finger, Frank Robbins, Denny O'Neil, Steve Englehart, Gerry Conway, Doug Moench, Frank Miller, Alan Grant, Chuck Dixon, Greg Rucka, Ed Brubaker, Paul Dini, Grant Morrison

Least Favorite Writers who have worked on Batman - Larry Hama, Judd Winick, A.J. Lieberman, Frank Miller


I agree pretty much 100% with this list. I don't think I've read any of Conway's work, and I liked Winick's work, as well as Miller.

Im actually collecting issues and not trades. I was looking to start with trades but there are enough out of print and expensive that made me look into collecting singles. Luckily the majority of the issues are affordable after year one.

Isnt the majority of the denny oneil stuff done before year one? Outside of 2 trades (tales of the demon and one from the legends of the dark knight series) off top of my head i cant think of more by oneil.

Yeah, back issues from Year One to now generally aren't too bad. There's a handful of pricey ones, but not many. Most of Denny's stuff is from the 70's and early 80's. So, it's not technically in continuity, if you're really hung up on that. It's really good though, so you should check it out if you can.

[earl]

A.J. Lieberman - his run on Gotham Knights may be the absolute worse run period. Those stories make no sense at all and every character is being shown way off.


Larry Hama didn't do much Batman, but that Toyman mini-series is just flat out strange and the guy created Orca, which was definitely a goofy character.


Judd Winick's Scarecrow story just didn't work with that character at all and will probably never be followed up on. He should have just invented a new character and it might have worked. While maybe editorial mandated, the 'how' of the Red Hood storyline was so freaking terrible it pretty much ruined the storyline. Of course, I think it is just compounded that the Hush storyline ending was just as convoluted, so you have these two huge story=lines that just seemed to cheese out. It got compounded that every story that followed up with Jason Todd was completely stupid, especially that storyline in Nightwing.

[Ben Akers]

Steve Englehart is by far my favorite Batman writer.

[AJM]

Isnt the majority of the denny oneil stuff done before year one? Outside of 2 trades (tales of the demon and one from the legends of the dark knight series) off top of my head i cant think of more by oneil.

The best Denny O'Neill stuff is from the 1970s and is all quite expensive in back issues, so i'd recommend the trades. All of his stuff with Neal Adams is available in some format or another and is highly recommended.

[NickGuy]

Frank Miller, Paul Dini, Denny O'Neill

I agree with this.

least favorite

Grant Morrison

[Personamanx]

Faves: Grant Morrison, Chuck Dixon

Least Faves: Grant Morrison, Chuck Dixon.

[OverMaster]

Oddly, rather than jump to Winnick, I'm going to say Doug Moench. It was actually his work on Batman in the 80's that was so bad Jason Todd had to be killed as a result (he did the retcon of Jason as street punk than a circus kid). He once tried to write a Batman story with a Mayan plot because he saw a drawing that Walter Simonsen did first. It was god-awful. And Nocturne...shudder. So, so bad.

The bolded part is wrong, actually. It was Max Allan Collins who did that retcon.

[Brack360]

Favorite Batman writers:
Greg Rucka
Ed Brubaker
Alan Grant
Grant Morrison
Brian Azzarello
Frank Miller

Least favorite Batman writers:
Judd Winick
Larry Hama
A.J. Lieberman
Jeph Loeb
Frank Miller

[WorstThingUS]

The bolded part is wrong, actually. It was Max Allan Collins who did that retcon.

You're right. And he was an awful Batman writer too.

[The Xenos]

Favs: Denny O'Neil, Chuck Dixon, Greg Rucka, Ed Brubaker, Jeff Loeb (Long Halloween), Matt Wagner, Darwyn Cooke, Frank Miller (in his own goddamn way)

Least Favs: WINIIIIICK! (though I love his non-DC stuff, go fig), Jeph Loeb (Hush)

I enjoy Grant Morrison, but I am on the fence on his Batman solo books. I love them, but I don't know if I'd put them as tops. Plus he's still ongoing in his experiment. Though certainly I loved his JLA Batman.

[Vidocq]

Favorite: Frank Miller, Alan Grant, Paul Dini, Denny O'Neill and Greg Rucka.

Least Favorite is a bit hard for me, since I tend to forget about bad stories and I only notice the Writer's name if I like the story. The Closest to a decent answer I can give is Joel Shumacher and I know that wouldn't count.

[Chiroptera]

Like Vindoc I can't name alot of names, I tend to only remember ones I either go "Yes, I like this!" or "Ew, I don't like this" for. My list is:

Favorite
Paul Dini, Greg Rucka, Denny O'Neil, Jeph Loeb, Ed Brubaker (can't believe I forgot that one!)

Disliked
Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, Frank Miller

[Captain Jim]

In my personal opinion:

Favorite Writers who have worked on Batman - Bill Finger, Frank Robbins, Denny O'Neil, Steve Englehart, Gerry Conway, Doug Moench, Frank Miller, Alan Grant, Chuck Dixon, Greg Rucka, Ed Brubaker, Paul Dini, Grant Morrison

Least Favorite Writers who have worked on Batman - Larry Hama, Judd Winick, A.J. Lieberman, Frank Miller


That's a pretty good list. I've never found Moench better than average on Batman though (however, I loved him on Moon Knight and Master of Kung Fu). And I'm still not sure about Dini. I also don't think I'd put Winick in the "least favorite" category--certainly not on the basis of Under the Hood or the current stories. I never read Scare-beast.

Hama may win the "award" on least favorite though. He was the designated writer to take over Batman after NML, but the negative outcry was so great (deservably, I think), that he was yanked after only a few issues, making the way for Ed Brubaker.

You're right. And [Max Collins] was an awful Batman writer too.

It pains me to agree, since I loved him on Dick Tracy, Ms. Tree and even Wild Dog. But I'm afraid I must.

[comicsmetal]

Favorite :Paul Dini,Early Frank Miller,J.leob ,

Lest favorite:Grant morrison

[yadadaimhollaing]

Nice to see brubaker listed as one of the good writers. Id forgotten he wrote batman. Ive been so used to him writing awesome marvel stories like cap and daredevil to remember him as a dc writer.

[ScottyQuick]

Favorites? Paul Dini, Devin Grayson, Anderson Gabrych, Doug Moench, people who write Batman as a genuinely likable person and write excellent stories.

Least favorite? It's complicated, because while, say, I love Greg Rucka's work on Batwoman and Renee, his Batman makes me sad, or I love Chuck Dixon's Babs and his Tim, but his Dick and Bruce are boring and an asshole. I just plain dislike Miller, though.

[WorstThingUS]

That's a pretty good list. I've never found Moench better than average on Batman though (however, I loved him on Moon Knight and Master of Kung Fu).

I can't put my love of his work on Master of Kung Fu into words, which is why I was so shocked by his Batman work.

It pains me to agree, since I loved him on Dick Tracy, Ms. Tree and even Wild Dog. But I'm afraid I must.

Same thing. You'd think he'd be great, but the result was far from it.

And let me shout out some love for Mike Barr who is a highly underrated Batman writer and I'll second the Gerry Conway love as well.

[dancj]

Favourites:
Frank Miller
Peter Milligan
Sam Keith
Denny O'Neil (when he's on form)
Mike W Barr (when he's with Alan Davis)
Alan Grant

Least Favourites:
Doug Moench
Jim Starlin
Marv Wolfman

[OverMaster]

Favorites:
Alan Grant.
Paul Dini.
Neil Gaiman.
Dennis O'Neil.
Kelley Puckett.

Least favorites:
A.J. Lieberman.
Akiva Goldsman. :mad:
Judd Winnick.

Hit or Miss:
Grant Morrison.
Frank Miller.
James Robinson.
Jeph Loeb.
Doug Moench (I still like his stories better than Dixon's, overall).
Chuck Dixon (competent, but mostly bland to my liking).

Oddly enough, while Hama's work on Batman was horrible, I never found it unbearable. I put it in the 'So bad it's good' category; the Banner and Orca were IMHO intriguing ideas with bad execution. (A Batman villainess without a supermodel build! :eek: ).

[Babylon23]

Favourites:

Denny O'Neill: Helped redefine Batman. His work with Adams is one of the greatest periods for Batman.

Steve Englehart: He wasn't there for long but his impact on the series was immediate and long-lasting.

Frank Miller: Dark Knight Retuns and Year One helped shape Batman in the late-80's and pretty much defined his character through most of the 90's.

Matt Wagner: While not the most prolific Batman writer, Wagner produces one great story after another when he works with the character

Doug Moench: While I really disliked his 80's run, his 90's work with Kelly Jones brought me back to Batman after a lengthy hiatus.

Least favourites:

Chuck Dixon: Made Batman incredibly bland and boring. His run wasn't exactly terrible, but there was nothing in it that really stood out for me either. An instantly forgettable run

Larry Hama: He wasn't there for very long...thankfully. Just a terrible run.

Jeph Loeb: I think Loeb has been lucky to work with Tim Sale and Jim Lee on his Batman projects, as their art helps hide just how terrible his stories are. Long Halloween is a mess and Hush is a massive fanboy wank. Loeb's villain of the week approach to Batman is terrible.

[Ben Akers]

I wasn't thinking too hard, and completely forgot how much I enjoyed the Alan Grant/John Wagner run on Detective Comics. Grant was solid on Shadow of the Bat too.

[Captain Jim]

Favorites? Paul Dini, Devin Grayson, Anderson Gabrych, Doug Moench, people who write Batman as a genuinely likable person and write excellent stories.


Forgot all about him. I think he's under-rated. His Batman was pretty decent; so was his Batgirl.

[Infernorhythm]

Favorite: Denny O'Neil, Steve Englehart, James Robinson, Royal McGraw

Least Favorite: Frank Miller, Grant Morrison

[d newton]

Chuck Dixon: Made Batman incredibly bland and boring. His run wasn't exactly terrible, but there was nothing in it that really stood out for me either. An instantly forgettable run.
*cough* Detective 703 *cough*

[Jorriss]

Jeph Loeb and Chuck Dixon, I'm enormously biased though, as I'm mainly a fan of Dixon because of his work on Nightwing (and Robin Year one)

[Hullababy]

Favorites: Denny O Neil, Steve Engelhart, Grant Morrison, Paul Dini

Least favorite: Judd Winnick, Chuck Dixon, Larry Hama , Frank Miller

[Green Griffin]

Favorite
Grant Morrison
Greg Rucka
Brian Azzarello
Jeph Loeb

Least
Frank Miller
Tony Daniel
Judd Winick
Chris Yost

[mofo]

Wow almost everyone doesn't like Judd Winick?

He's really not that bad (but not the best either...)
Although he does have a very...unique (not neccessarily in a good way) form of writing.
I think I'm gonna go back and re-read batman 687 and 688....

[TROUBLEZ]

Favorite
Steve Englehart-Loved Dark Detective
Alan Grant-Grew up on his run
Mike W. Barr-Probably wrote some of the best modern Batman and Robin stories, and he balances drama and action pretty damn well.
Doug Moench-Got me reading Batman again with his Kelley Jones collaboration.
Matt Wagner-Never did a regular run, but his Grendel/Batman stories are some of the best Batman stories, and his Faces story arc was equally excellent. Writes a great Batman and Robin.


Least Favorite
Frank Miller-Loved DKR and Year One was okay. But everything after was horrible, like a very bad (or very good) parody.
Judd Winick-The Return of Jason Todd was the only thing going for that arc. The actual story was boring, ending predictable, and storyline was padded (and it was only 4 issues!).

[AJM]

Least Favorite
Frank Miller-Loved DKR and Year One was okay. But everything after was horrible, like a very bad (or very good) parody.

I'm a very vocal hater of Miller's recent output, but let's keep it in perspective. DKR and Year One are undeniably essential Batman works, and i think Year One is one of the best 'super-hero' comics in history (not least because of Mazzuchelli's work on it too). DKSA and ASBAR are abominable, and if Holy Terror, Batman is ever finished i intend to bombard DC with as many emails of protestation that i can until they burn it and apologise. But so far, 50% of his Batman work is almost untouchable, so i don't think he's on the shit list yet. But as i say, Holy Terror will certainly be the tipping point for me.

[TROUBLEZ]

But so far, 50% of his Batman work is almost untouchable, so i don't think he's on the shit list yet. But as i say, Holy Terror will certainly be the tipping point for me.
Okay, but it's less than 50%.
I've only read 2 good Frank Miller Batman stories: DKR and Year One.

The rest:
Spawn/Batman
DK2
All-Star Batman

[Sixa]

On the negative end, I was gonna knee-jerk blurt out "Jeph Loeb", based on the crap he's putting out these days, but then I thought about it and his Batman work wasn't nearly as bad as Red Hulk or Ultimatum are.

I agree,I am not really into his Marvel's work(heard most of it was more miss that hit).His Batman books however are amazing,I have read Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory ,Batman: Haunted Knight.Not sure if there's more that I haven't read.

Does he still work on any recent Batman series?I would love to check it out.

In terms of Batman comic,his works are side by side along with Morrison's and Miller's(and Greg Rucka) on my shelf.Note that most of my Batman comics are mostly Trade paper back or graphic novel.:redface:

[nepenthes]

Favourite:
Frank Miller
Grant Morrison

Least Favourite:
Jeph Loeb
Ed Brubaker

[Sixa]

Wow,is it just me or Frank Miller is on everybody's least favorite lists:eek: ?

I really like some his work(Ronin,Bad Boy,Batman Year one,Daredevil Visionaries,frank Miller Spiderman,Robocop,Sin City,Dark Knight Return).Might admit that I would buy anything that has his name print on it.:redface:

So,am curious:confused: to know which one of his work was less satisfying/average that got into your list.

[nepenthes]

I'd guess that those who aren't outraged by All Star are befuddled by Dark Knight Strikes Again

[Sixa]

I'd guess that those who aren't outraged by All Star are befuddled by Dark Knight Strikes Again

Are you talking about All Star Batman and Robin?Well,I like it and think that its quite good even though it's not his finest work(or my favourite) in my opinion.

I actually like Dark Knight Strikes Again,sure it would probably put off people who's not familiar with some of the character in it or a newbie to Batman.But it was great nonetheless.I think Dark Knight Strikes Again reminds me of Green Lantern: Will World somehow.

[Karl O'Neill]

I love Morrison writing BATMAN.

[Sn4tcH]

Keep in mind, this is only regarding these authors BATMAN works.

Favorites:
Morrison
Loeb
Dixon
and Miller

Least Favorite:
Moench
Lieberman
and Miller

[dancj]

Wow,is it just me or Frank Miller is on everybody's least favorite lists:eek: ?
Not mine - I love everything he's done with the character!

The ones that confuse me are all the people who've put Paul Dini and Steve Englehart in their favourite lists.

[Sixa]

Not mine - I love everything he's done with the character!

The ones that confuse me are all the people who've put Paul Dini and Steve Englehart in their favourite lists.


Don't know who Paul Dini is but not really Steve Englehart fan.Come to think of it I don't know much about his work.I read some of his Cap America's run and I didn't like it.
Not sure about his work on Batman though.

[Batman Fan 31593]

Wow,is it just me or Frank Miller is on everybody's least favorite lists:eek: ?


If you look at post #7 of this thread, you'll see that I included Frank Miller on both my Favorite and Least Favorite lists. That was intentional. Year One and Dark Knight Returns earn him a spot on my favorite list, and Dark Knight Strikes Again and All Star Batman and Robin earn him a spot on my Least Favorite list. I've heard his Spawn/Batman issue was bad too but I haven't read it.

[Hullababy]

Don't know who Paul Dini is but not really Steve Englehart fan.Come to think of it I don't know much about his work.I read some of his Cap America's run and I didn't like it.
Not sure about his work on Batman though.

You can't really say you don't like it if you haven't read his run. Its collected in the "Strange Apparitions" tpb.

[Sixa]

If you look at post #7 of this thread, you'll see that I included Frank Miller on both my Favorite and Least Favorite lists. That was intentional. Year One and Dark Knight Returns earn him a spot on my favorite list, and Dark Knight Strikes Again and All Star Batman and Robin earn him a spot on my Least Favorite list. I've heard his Spawn/Batman issue was bad too but I haven't read it.

Well,kinda have to agree that Dark Knight Strikes Again and All Star Batman and Robin isn't one of his best or my all time favorite.But I can say that none of his work are bad/below average.Those two comics probably just scored Good/Above average rather Dark Knight Returns's Excellent score.

You can't really say you don't like it if you haven't read his run. Its collected in the "Strange Apparitions" tpb.

Perhaps I worded my post wrongly,I was meant to say that I didn't really recognize his works(aside from several Cap America and other non-batman comic).

Will definitely check out Batman:Strange Apparitions that you just mentioned. thanks.

[Chiroptera]

Don't know who Paul Dini is but not really Steve Englehart fan.Come to think of it I don't know much about his work.I read some of his Cap America's run and I didn't like it.
Not sure about his work on Batman though.

Wow, this one floored me! A Bat fan who doesn't know who Paul Dini is!?

He's one of the master mind writers behind Batman: The Animated Series and was the one writing Detective before Rucka took over.

[Sixa]

Wow, this one floored me! A Bat fan who doesn't know who Paul Dini is!?

He's one of the master mind writers behind Batman: The Animated Series and was the one writing Detective before Rucka took over.

Herm,I may have recalled his name but I doubt so.
I don't really read Detective or Batman series comic because they don't come in Volumes or TPB.
But I am a fan of Greg Rucka though.I will probably Google through Paul Dini's and check his work.

[Batman Fan 31593]

For those questioning Doug Moench's place on a "Favorites" list of Batman writers, I give him major points, because, among his other qualities, the man is a master of onomatopoeia. In my opinion, no one is as good at writing sound effects as he is. Here are some random examples from a couple of issues of Batman that he wrote:

From Batman #532:

THRAK
HWOKK
BAWHOOOM
BRAKAKAKAK
SPAK
CHYEW
SHREEEEEEE
PHOOM
BWOKK
SWUDT
CHFT
SHUMP
KUNKT
FWSHSH
WAKT

From Batman #539:

SHUFF
CH-TUNK
KREEEE-EEE-EEK
KLAK-A-LAK
VROOOOOM
KLIK
SPKT
KLAK-LAK-A-LAK
TEK
RAK RAK
SKUKRATCH
BRAK-A-KRAKT
TUP WUD THP
SHUDT
SWFFF
CHUFT
SAPT
STP AGH-K!
THRAKK

[Sn4tcH]

Herm,I may have recalled his name but I doubt so.
I don't really read Detective or Batman series comic because they don't come in Volumes or TPB.
But I am a fan of Greg Rucka though.I will probably Google through Paul Dini's and check his work.

Dini was also the last writer on Detective, and last few TPB's for Detective have all been his writing.

[Babylon23]

The ones that confuse me are all the people who've put Paul Dini and Steve Englehart in their favourite lists.

The 10-issues that Englehart wrote in the 70's are amongst the finest Batman stories ever written. His Joker Fish story is considered one of the definitive Joker tales, so much so that it was freely adapted into a Batman: TAS episode. It's not really surprising that so many of us rank him so highly.

[Captain Jim]

DKR and Year One are undeniably essential Batman works,

Well, at least Year One is. Not sure I'd call DKR "essential" (personally, I think it's overrated)

I agree,I am not really into his Marvel's work(heard most of it was more miss that hit).His Batman books however are amazing,I have read Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Dark Victory ,Batman: Haunted Knight.Not sure if there's more that I haven't read.

Catwoman: When in Rome and (most recently) Batman: Hush.

Does he still work on any recent Batman series?I would love to check it out.

No, he's exclusive with Marvel now. The last thing he did with Batman at DC was the first 25 issue of Superman/Batman (which I personally thought were pretty bad).

Herm,I may have recalled his name but I doubt so.
I don't really read Detective or Batman series comic because they don't come in Volumes or TPB.


Dini's Detective stories HAVE been collected in TPB. The first volume is entitled Batman: Detective.

[Sixa]

Hah,no wonder I recalled his name.I have one of his comic(was there all along on the shelf),Batman:Death in The City by Paul Dini:biggrin: .I bought it along with Batman:Face the Face Rather excellent the last time I read it.
Will definitely put him in the list of my favorite writer from now on:redface:



Catwoman: When in Rome and (most recently) Batman: Hush.

Thanks will check it out although am no fan of Catwoman.


Dini's Detective stories HAVE been collected in TPB. The first volume is entitled Batman: Detective.

Is this a standalone Paul Dini's work and is it a continuity or anyway related to the ongoing Batman Detective series?Will have a look anyway.Thanks again.

[dancj]

The 10-issues that Englehart wrote in the 70's are amongst the finest Batman stories ever written. His Joker Fish story is considered one of the definitive Joker tales, so much so that it was freely adapted into a Batman: TAS episode. It's not really surprising that so many of us rank him so highly.
I've read Strange Apparitions and found it to be sub-par. That's why it surprises me that his stuff is so highly regarded.

[Hullababy]

I've read Strange Apparitions and found it to be sub-par. That's why it surprises me that his stuff is so highly regarded.

Well it was written in the 70s so it might not appeal to some people who are fans of the more "darker" Batman. I really like the more human Batman but I can understand if someone doesn't like it.

[Mia]

I have three favourite Batman writers:
Grant Morrsion
Greg Rucka
Jim Starlin

Special Mention goes to:
Christos Cage (limited run on LTDK)
Matt Wagner
Frank Miller ( I forgive him for ASB&R since I know it's just a joke)
Judd WInnick
Paul Pope (Batman Year 100)
Dwayne McDuffie
Doug Moench

My least favourite Batman writers are:

Paul Dini
Devin Grayson
Anderson Gabrych
Ed Brubaker
Scott Beatty
Jeph Loeb

Their stuff was either boring or pretentious drivel.

[stelok]

Favorite Batman Writers:
Frank Miller
Dennis O'Neil
Grant Morrison
Jim Starlin


Least Favorite Batman Writers:
Bob Kane

[Captain Jim]

Is this a standalone Paul Dini's work and is it a continuity or anyway related to the ongoing Batman Detective series?Will have a look anyway.Thanks again.

It reprints the "complete in one issue" stories that were originally published in Detective Comics. There have been a couple follow-up volumes as well.

Least Favorite Batman Writers:
Bob Kane

Kane was an artist, not a writer.

[dancj]

Well it was written in the 70s so it might not appeal to some people who are fans of the more "darker" Batman. I really like the more human Batman but I can understand if someone doesn't like it.
It's not the more human aspect - I love Mike W Barr's run with Alan Davis that has a very humorous Batman. Some of the innovations that were made at the time were probably good. I just found the stories to be poorly written

[CountAchilles]

Favourite Batman Writers :

Frank Miller

Alan Moore

Grant Morrsion

Least Favourite Batman Writers :

Paul Dini

Jeph Loeb

Ed Brubaker

[AJM]

Kane was an artist, not a writer.

And according to the articles i just read in an old issue of Comic Book Artist, a bit of a bastard too. Another thread maybe...

[Rambo, John J]

Hmm..

I always thought Andersen Gabrych had the character down pretty well.

I'd include him amongst my favourite writers, even though he hasn't done that many Batman stories. I'd also include... Devin Grayson for the run on Gotham Knights, Paul Dini in general; and Ed Brubakers and Greg Rucka's run on Batman and Detective Comics respectively were imo decent reads. I'll also include Morrison, if for no other reason than the inclusion of the concept of a 'back-up' personality. His entire run after #655 I thought was excellent.

I didn't care too much for Winick's initial run, but love what he's doing now. Despised Broken City - not so much for the writing, but because it came out on the heels of Hush and there was zero continuity or overlap between the two stories.

[yadadaimhollaing]

so what is it that makes grant morrison both the favorite and least favorite on some lists?

[CountAchilles]

so what is it that makes grant morrison both the favorite and least favorite on some lists?

Well,from what I can guess... it might be due to the reason that those who like him, have read his entire run in continuity and not picked up just Batman #666 or Batman RIP,which gets a heck of a lot confusing if you aren't familiar with his storyline.

Those who have just picked a few random Morrison titles just because they were "famous" enough... have not liked him and have called his run 'confusing'.

That's what I think,there might be another reason.

[Captain Jim]

Well,from what I can guess... it might be due to the reason that those who like him, have read his entire run in continuity and not picked up just Batman #666 or Batman RIP,which gets a heck of a lot confusing if you aren't familiar with his storyline.

Those who have just picked a few random Morrison titles just because they were "famous" enough... have not liked him and have called his run 'confusing'.

That's what I think,there might be another reason.

I don't think that's fair at all. I read every Batman title he wrote, plus all of Final Crisis. I didn't care for any of it prior to B&R.

Morrison has long been a very polarizing writer: people who like him think he's the best writer in comics; people who don't like him tend to hate his stuff. The same thing is true of Frank Miller's more recent Batman work.

[Chiroptera]

Well,from what I can guess... it might be due to the reason that those who like him, have read his entire run in continuity and not picked up just Batman #666 or Batman RIP,which gets a heck of a lot confusing if you aren't familiar with his storyline.

Those who have just picked a few random Morrison titles just because they were "famous" enough... have not liked him and have called his run 'confusing'.

That's what I think,there might be another reason.

I read his run from the very beginning and it's absolutely the bottom tier of my list of good batman reads.
I didn't find it confusing in the least, for me it was that Grant Morrison put a spotlight on the version of Batman that I despise, brought it to the surface again, then added some new stuff for me to hate as well.

Sometimes it doesn't matter if a stories good or bad, sometimes the writing just doesn't fit what someone likes to see in a character. As Captain Jim said, Morrison's a love 'im or leave 'im writer. I've yet to meet a fan who goes "eh, he's okay" people seem to either love his work or hate it.

For another example, look at all the folks that have Paul Dini on their "least favorites" list. It doesn't mean he's a bad writer, given the awards he's received it's pretty obvious he's actually quite a good writer; but when it comes to super heroes he delivers things some people like and others don't.
His Batman stories are generally fairly standard super hero flare, Batman pursues a criminal, stops crimes, stops villains, saves the day. Usually in just one or two issues.
Some of us love that, some don't.

[Mia]

I didn't find it confusing in the least, for me it was that Grant Morrison put a spotlight on the version of Batman that I despise, brought it to the surface again, then added some new stuff for me to hate as well.


And what exactly is that?

[Mia]

so what is it that makes grant morrison both the favorite and least favorite on some lists?

For me (and I like Morrison's Batman run), I like the fact that he writes Batman/Bruce Wayne as a Renaissance man.

He's a thinker, a superior athlete, martial artists, strategist and detective. He invents,he builds things, he has a social life, he dates and attends parties. Morrison's Batman isn't boring and one dimensional. Morisson's Batman is actually fully evolved and it is a marked change from the always angry, anal one dimensional potrayal of the character that we've been saddled with for the past 20 years. And one more thing, I don't have to turn my brain off to appreciate Morisson's Batman stories like I do with other writers. Morisson writes complex stories, yet at the same time he keeps them down to earth and simple. His run on Batman is far more main stream than his other stuff, which to be frank I can't stand.

Morisson actually is one of the few writers who writes Batman as he is meant to be.

[ScottyQuick]

I have three favourite Batman writers:
Grant Morrsion
Greg Rucka
Jim Starlin

Special Mention goes to:
Christos Cage (limited run on LTDK)
Matt Wagner
Frank Miller ( I forgive him for ASB&R since I know it's just a joke)
Judd WInnick
Paul Pope (Batman Year 100)
Dwayne McDuffie
Doug Moench

My least favourite Batman writers are:

Paul Dini
Devin Grayson
Anderson Gabrych
Ed Brubaker
Scott Beatty
Jeph Loeb

Their stuff was either boring or pretentious drivel.

What's boring or pretentious about Dini, Grayson or Gabrych? They're my three absolute favorite Batman writers.

[RocketRaccoon]

If we're talking Batman's actual titles, my least favorite has been Larry Hama. If we're talking least favorite writer on the Batman line of titles, that would be Devin Grayson's run on Nightwing.

[ScottyQuick]

If we're talking Batman's actual titles, my least favorite has been Larry Hama. If we're talking least favorite writer on the Batman line of titles, that would be Devin Grayson's run on Nightwing.

What did you hate so much and what's your favorite?

[Chiroptera]

For me (and I like Morrison's Batman run), I like the fact that he writes Batman/Bruce Wayne as a Renaissance man.

He's a thinker, a superior athlete, martial artists, strategist and detective. He invents,he builds things, he has a social life, he dates and attends parties. Morrison's Batman isn't boring and one dimensional. Morrison's Batman is actually fully evolved and it is a marked change from the always angry, anal one dimensional potrayal of the character that we've been saddled with for the past 20 years. And one more thing, I don't have to turn my brain off to appreciate Morrison's Batman stories like I do with other writers. Morrison writes complex stories, yet at the same time he keeps them down to earth and simple. His run on Batman is far more main stream than his other stuff, which to be frank I can't stand.

Morisson actually is one of the few writers who writes Batman as he is meant to be.


And what exactly is that?


... I don't know how to answer this now. It's like we've read two entirely different stories. For me I felt Morrison failed utterly to show Batman as the Renassaince man. Reading Morrison's Batman what I found was, as I said, everything I hate:
- The Bat god who has a plan for everything and can get out of any situation (such as bench pressing 600 pounds of soil) no matter how ludicrously absurd.
- The Psychopath who's been on the crusade so long he's losing touch with reality.
- The Loner who spurns all his allies and team mates and does things alone when he shouldn't/doesn't need to.

To me, Morrison wrote the same Batman from one of the other writers I dislike, Frank Miller. A man who's as absolutely bat shit crazy as the villains he faces. A man who has trained in logic, rationality and science; who acts through action and reaction. Yet, when he's faced with a mysterious foe he doesn't quite understand, rather than calling in his associates for back up to take on the foe with superior numbers he goes it alone even though it flies in the face of logic and good tactics.
Add to that, I find Morrison's Batman actually seems stupider than the typical Dark Knight. I mean come on, Jezebel Jet was a painfully obvious villain from the get go, yet Batsy played right into the whole ploy and put himself in danger by doing so.

I respect Mr. Morrison as a writer, and there are works of his I've greatly enjoyed; but when I think of writers who don't get or understand Batman, he is at the very top of my list.


On a totally unrelated note, Mia, I had a question I posed to you over on the thread about J.H. Williams art in Detective and I'd still love to see your response! :smile:

[Mia]

...
For me I felt Morrison failed utterly to show Batman as the Renassaince man.


Do you understand what the term Renaissance man is? A Renaissance man (or woman) is a person who is skilled in multiple fields or multiple disciplines, and who has a broad base of knowledge. How can you look at how Morisson portrayed Batman and claim that he did not write him as Renaissance man. When we see Batman/Bruce Wayne acting as detective, athlete technological engineer, scientist and not claim that he is a Renaissance man.

That's exactly the man that Finger and Kane created Batman to be. Someone who is skilled and educated in various fields.

...
Reading Morrison's Batman what I found was, as I said, everything I hate:
- The Bat god who has a plan for everything and can get out of any situation

I don't know what you mean by a plan for everything. But Bruce is a master strategist. And one of the things that a good strategist is able to do. Is to look at the problem at hand and figure out ways to solve it.

...
(such as bench pressing 600 pounds of soil) no matter how ludicrously absurd.


I take it you don't lift weights or know anything about weight lifting. In issue 655 Bruce is seeing benching a substantial amount of weight. Given the fact that Bruce is a big man, who has excercised for years. So being able to push 600 pounds of soil out of the way out of the way is not ludicrous. It has been done before (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go3Og5mv2VM&feature=related).


...
- The Psychopath who's been on the crusade so long he's losing touch with reality.

What? Morisson wrote Batman as a psychopath!:confused: Do you even know what a psychopath is? A psychopath is a person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse. Show me an example of where Morisson (or any other writer) portrayed Batman in that manner.


...
- The Loner who spurns all his allies and team mates and does things alone when he shouldn't/doesn't need to.
To me, Morrison wrote the same Batman from one of the other writers I dislike, Frank Miller. A man who's as absolutely bat shit crazy as the villains he faces. A man who has trained in logic, rationality and science; who acts through action and reaction. Yet, when he's faced with a mysterious foe he doesn't quite understand, rather than calling in his associates for back up to take on the foe with superior numbers he goes it alone even though it flies in the face of logic and good tactics.


Did you read the RIP? Because I see him working very closely with Robin, Nightwing and Alfred.


...
Add to that, I find Morrison's Batman actually seems stupider than the typical Dark Knight. I mean come on, Jezebel Jet was a painfully obvious villain from the get go, yet Batsy played right into the whole ploy and put himself in danger by doing so.

Yes, and that was covered at the end of RIP. Bruce admitted that he saw right through her act. But instead played the smitten lover in order to get closer to her and figure out what she was up to. Did you not see that?


... I don't know how to answer this now. It's like we've read two entirely different stories.

Yeah I think we did. Frankly most of your claims above are absolutely bizzare.Because many of the things you accuse Morisson of doing to the character don't exists.

[Captain Jim]

Ahem, let's be civil in our disagreements, people. :smile:

[nepenthes]

Add to that, I find Morrison's Batman actually seems stupider than the typical Dark Knight. I mean come on, Jezebel Jet was a painfully obvious villain from the get go, yet Batsy played right into the whole ploy and put himself in danger by doing so.

this tells me you probably didn't even read RIP very closely then.

[CountAchilles]

All right, RIP can be a tad confusing at times. But,if you can grasp the plot correctly then Jezebel Jet was as 'obvious' as a villian. The whole point of the story was to make him fall into the trap. And knowing,Batman's intellect its very hard for a writer to make that happen,without making it look contrived.

I think Morrison did a great job on the run.But,that's my own view.

P.S. Ladies,please... we dont want a catfight here now,do we?(Though,the prospect is infinitely exciting)

[Captain Jim]

I don't think Chiroptera is a lady.

[Chiroptera]

I'm not going to requote everything in chunks because I find it actually is more difficult to respond/read in that form than as a single post so bear with me here.
I'm also not going to both with snipes or accusations since I really don't see a point of getting into an out and out argument over something like a fictional story.

Wither that in mind, I'll try to respond to Mia's retorts one by one here.
I will also note, I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me here, I'm probably one of the darkest sheep of the flock and my opinions both on Batman and comics in general seem to be unanimously laughable in the eyes of most fans.
Now then!

- Yes, I do know what a renaissance man is; and I again say that I did not get the impression that he was truly a renaissance man in this story. It didn't feel like Batman that renaissance man to me, it felt like batman the conspiracy theorist. This isn't necessarily to say it was a negative aspect, it was just a different one. The story felt more like it was focused on Batman as a psychological analogy and a detective, not as a master of strategy, science, etc. etc.
I'm pleased to find others saw all that in there, I didn't, or at least not enough of it to acknowledge it as a successful portrayal as such.

- When I say a plan for everything I mean: A plan to take down every single member of the JLA individually, kept locked away in the secret files of my computer, that only I know about. Or having a secret "second personality" that kicks in when my original one is shattered by something traumatic.
This links to the whole "Batman can defeat anyone if he has time to plan" thing, and I personally find it incredibly disappointing. I don't like a Batman that is that infallible. Part of the appeal of him, for me, is that he's a genius akin to Sherlock Holmes; a man who puts himself into the enemies shoes figures out what they're going to do and heads them off at the pass.
When he becomes the 'plan for everything" swiss army knife of super hero-dom I lose interest.
Strategy is planning ahead, coordinating, plotting out action and response. The above examples are strategy, yes, but they're strategy driven by paranoia. And again, I don't like the paranoid psychotic version of Batman.

- Actually, I do know quote a bit about weight lifting, it's actually a hobby of mine; and there is a very very large difference between your video of a man lifting 600 pounds and moving 600 pounds of dirt.
It's not about whether it's possible to move 600 pounds, that's quite possible, it's a matter of it being 600 pounds of dirt

The weights there are centralized and balanced, they were in specific spots, they will not spread, shifting, crumble, roll, or reorient. They were permanently attached to each end of that pole. Dirt, on the other hand, will do all the aforementioned things, making it a far more difficult thing to lift. In fact, the discovery channel TV show MythBusters did a special on being buried alive where they investigated myths about digging your way out, or lifting the dirt off the lid of your coffin. Both were found to be nearly impossible, even for someone in excellent physical condition.


- My father has a masters in psychology and I'm currently pursuing a bachelor's in the same subject; yes, I'm very keenly aware of what a psychopath is.
Examples of Batman as a psychopath:
When Bruce snaps and lays into the Ten-Eyed Man during his date with Jezebel, which leads to her "discovering" that he is Batman. A man of sound, rationality and logic, a master of physical and mental arts who's night time antics require extreme focus and discipline would never allow himself to completely lose control of his temper when he's attempting to portray his "public image" as a billionaire philanthropist out on a date.
His slow descent into a near murderous state of vigilante justice in The Dark Knight Returns and Dark Knight Strikes Again; "rubber bullets, honest" and of course "This is an operating table, and I'm the surgeon!"
Yes they're great kick ass lines, but they're not lines that sane, rational individual would spout off. These aren't lines being delivered purely to intimidate and horrify the enemy, they're just him becoming more and more driven and obsessed with his war on crime. Miller himself said that part of what he wanted to show in DKR was the psychological breakdown that would begin to occur to a man who does what Batman does for his entire life.
Back to Morrison, we even saw Bruce go find the whole Ten-Eyed clan, begging them to free him from the essence of the Batman. He was on the edge of a nervous breakdown there. Psychological fragile and cracked.

Oh and finally there's the whole "I created a parallel me from another planet called ZurEnAhr who wears purple, red and yellow and grins like a lunatic during brutal combat" thing. Again, not the actions of a sane individual. In training for hypnosis and other psychological interaction, you're taught that your defensive response to mental and psychological trauma should be something calming, soothing, and serene. Nothing about the Zur En Ahr Batman had any of that.
Once more, if flies in the face of science and psychology, the worldly wise Batman, he of the master intellect, completely ignored all protocol for creating a safety persona in the event of extreme mental trauma.

- He spoke to Dick, Tim, and Alfred, but he didn't really work with them. Certainly not as well as he could. Again, it's coordination that's the problem here. Batman trained with the police and the FBI, he's studied combat protocols, terrorist response training, and criminology tactics from around the world. One thing they all have in common is that you never go up against an unknown assailant half-cocked or unprepared.
The moment Bruce thought something was up, particularly involving the black case book involving the truly strange and out there stuff he's encountered, he should have called a meeting with the entire Bat clan, laid it all out and told them everything he knew. This would better prepare all of them for what was to come. None of them should have been operating alone at any time during the whole thing, like police on the night time shift they should have been operating in doubles, and always maintaining contact with dispatch (in this case, it should have been Oracle or Alfred, someone keeping an eye on them all.)


- Yes the whole saw through Jezebel from the get go thing is all well and good, and yes It had slipped my mind that he did say he knew from the get go.
Still, it comes back down to him losing his temper in a public setting and beating the living tar out of Ten-Eyed, being captured by the Black Glove and getting himself and his entire team put in jeopardy.
And all of this was apparently going on in parallel with events of Final Crisis. This was no time for him to be flying solo and simply "trusting in his team mates to do what had to be done." It was a time for them to operate swiftly, efficiently, and as a unit.


There's my side of it. Feel free to have a good laugh with everyone else. This is the 5th time I've gone into one of these long explanations of my grievances with RIP and Morrison's run in general. I've said all I can possibly say on the matter so from now on I'm just going to stick to saying "I didn't like it" and leave it at at that.
And now, it's late, so I'm heading to bed.

[Mia]

- Yes, I do know what a renaissance man is; and I again say that I did not get the impression that he was truly a renaissance man in this story. It didn't feel like Batman that renaissance man to me, it felt like batman the conspiracy theorist. This isn't necessarily to say it was a negative aspect, it was just a different one. The story felt more like it was focused on Batman as a psychological analogy and a detective, not as a master of strategy, science, etc. etc.
I'm pleased to find others saw all that in there, I didn't, or at least not enough of it to acknowledge it as a successful portrayal as such.

Fine you don’t have to feel it, but it still does not discount the evidence is there to show that Morison has portrayed Batman as being multi-disciplined and multi faceted individual. In short a Renaissance man.



- When I say a plan for everything I mean: A plan to take down every single member of the JLA individually, kept locked away in the secret files of my computer, that only I know about. Or having a secret "second personality" that kicks in when my original one is shattered by something traumatic.
This links to the whole "Batman can defeat anyone if he has time to plan" thing, and I personally find it incredibly disappointing. I don't like a Batman that is that infallible. Part of the appeal of him, for me, is that he's a genius akin to Sherlock Holmes; a man who puts himself into the enemies shoes figures out what they're going to do and heads them off at the pass.
When he becomes the 'plan for everything" swiss army knife of super hero-dom I lose interest.
Strategy is planning ahead, coordinating, plotting out action and response. The above examples are strategy, yes, but they're strategy driven by paranoia. And again, I don't like the paranoid psychotic version of Batman.

Actually it isn’t. Being prepared and being paranoid are two different things. For Bruce to decide that he wants to be a vigilante and fight crime and not make all the necessary preparations ahead of time is folly of the highest order. Batman is not Superman or Wonderwoman. He does not have their powers and can easily be hurt. That is why he prepares for every contingency.

And there is a big difference from making plans ahead of time in order to succeed and being infallible.




The weights there are centralized and balanced, they were in specific spots, they will not spread, shifting, crumble, roll, or reorient. They were permanently attached to each end of that pole. Dirt, on the other hand, will do all the aforementioned things, making it a far more difficult thing to lift. In fact, the discovery channel TV show MythBusters did a special on being buried alive where they investigated myths about digging your way out, or lifting the dirt off the lid of your coffin. Both were found to be nearly impossible, even for someone in excellent physical condition.

I can’t argue as to what took place on Mythbusters, as I have never seen the episode. But I will suspect their tests involved a ‘regular person’. Not someone who is used to lifting weights and who has had years, and years of practice of escaping death traps like Bruce Wayne has.

[Cont'd}

[Mia]

- My father has a masters in psychology and I'm currently pursuing a bachelor's in the same subject; yes, I'm very keenly aware of what a psychopath is.
Examples of Batman as a psychopath:
When Bruce snaps and lays into the Ten-Eyed Man during his date with Jezebel, which leads to her "discovering" that he is Batman. A man of sound, rationality and logic, a master of physical and mental arts who's night time antics require extreme focus and discipline would never allow himself to completely lose control of his temper when he's attempting to portray his "public image" as a billionaire philanthropist out on a date.
Back to Morrison, we even saw Bruce go find the whole Ten-Eyed clan, begging them to free him from the essence of the Batman. He was on the edge of a nervous breakdown there. Psychological fragile and cracked.

That’s still not evidence of being A psychopath. Snapping at someone who is attacking you does not constitute psychopathic behaviour. Second of all, it was quite evident from the story that he did that in order for Jezebel to figure out that he was ‘Batman’, in order to make her believe that she had gained his trust.




Oh and finally there's the whole "I created a parallel me from another planet called ZurEnAhr who wears purple, red and yellow and grins like a lunatic during brutal combat" thing. Again, not the actions of a sane individual. In training for hypnosis and other psychological interaction, you're taught that your defensive response to mental and psychological trauma should be something calming, soothing, and serene. Nothing about the Zur En Ahr Batman had any of that.
Once more, if flies in the face of science and psychology, the worldly wise Batman, he of the master intellect, completely ignored all protocol for creating a safety persona in the event of extreme mental trauma.

I disagree, the Zur En Ahr, and I saw a great deal of calming. It was actually what enabled him to think and strategize about how to bring down his foe.




- He spoke to Dick, Tim, and Alfred, but he didn't really work with them. Certainly not as well as he could. Again, it's coordination that's the problem here. Batman trained with the police and the FBI, he's studied combat protocols, terrorist response training, and criminology tactics from around the world. One thing they all have in common is that you never go up against an unknown assailant half-cocked or unprepared.
The moment Bruce thought something was up, particularly involving the black case book involving the truly strange and out there stuff he's encountered, he should have called a meeting with the entire Bat clan, laid it all out and told them everything he knew. This would better prepare all of them for what was to come. None of them should have been operating alone at any time during the whole thing, like police on the night time shift they should have been operating in doubles, and always maintaining contact with dispatch (in this case, it should have been Oracle or Alfred, someone keeping an eye on them all.)



- Yes the whole saw through Jezebel from the get go thing is all well and good, and yes It had slipped my mind that he did say he knew from the get go.
Still, it comes back down to him losing his temper in a public setting and beating the living tar out of Ten-Eyed, being captured by the Black Glove and getting himself and his entire team put in jeopardy.
And all of this was apparently going on in parallel with events of Final Crisis. This was no time for him to be flying solo and simply "trusting in his team mates to do what had to be done." It was a time for them to operate swiftly, efficiently, and as a unit.

They did act swiftly as a unit. The scene where Nightwing wakes up on the hospital table just as he is going to be operated on, shows that he was in on the deal from the beginning. And it is one of the reasons I love the story so much. Batman knew that he was not dealing with a conventional foe. full frontal attack would not work on this organization.Which is why he and the rest of the Bat clan basically played stupid. A That’s why they used subterfuge and allowed the BlackGlove to think that they were winning in order to draw them in and defeat them.


There's my side of it. Feel free to have a good laugh with everyone else. This is the 5th time I've gone into one of these long explanations of my grievances with RIP and Morrison's run in general. I've said all I can possibly say on the matter so from now on I'm just going to stick to saying "I didn't like it" and leave it at at that.
And now, it's late, so I'm heading to bed.

No one has a problem if you don't like the story. Your personal tastes are your own issues. However I just found your reasoning to be bizzare.

[Vigilante Man]

Favorites:
Frank Miller
Brian Azzarello
Jim Starlin
Steve Englehart
Matt Wagner

Not sure about my least favorites.

[pitbull in a skirt]

Hey guys as a person whos going to start reading batman soon i was wondering who is generally considered the top of the line batman creators and who isnt so well remembered. Since ive been mainly a marvel reader i dont know much about top tier DC writers. My extent of bat knowledge is limited to denny oneil being remembered well, grant morrison being hit or miss, and i think paul dinis highly regarded.

I searched for a similar thread but unfortunatly the search function on cbr doesnt work so well :frown:

You can only search one word :frown:

[Vigilante Man]

I think Brian Azzarello wrote one of the best recent Batman stories in years with Broken City. His Joker story was definitely one of the best Joker stories and a great take on the character. I loved how it gave you an inside look at Joker's life when he is not battling Batman.

[Babylon23]

Having just read the first issue of Batman: The Widening Gyre I'm seriously considering adding Kevin Smith to my list of least favourite Batman writers. It's like reading Batman as channeled through Jay and Silent Bob. Terrible.

[yadadaimhollaing]

You can only search one word :frown:

Thanks much, this tip has actually made the search button work for me :eek: