Are there any Marvel characters more powerful than the Phoenix Force?

[Zeefree]

And um...are there any who could defeat or destroy it? Yes I know that would mean the universe would disappear, and that the Phoenix can be resurrected and all that. But I'm curious. I've been to random comic book and video game message boards that do "character vs. character" threads, and most of the time whenever Phoenix or the Phoenix Force is involved, Phoenix fans are always saying how the Phoenix would slaughter the opposing character easily because she/it controls all matter, time, powers, etc etc. I know she/it can't be the only Marvel Character who has that power.

I haven't read all the x-men comics so I get most of my information on Phoenix and some other Marvel characters from respect threads, message boards, websites and all that.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-473316-phoenix-respect-thread-remastered-v-20.html

^This respect thread is one of them. I know there's another one going on on these x-books forums right now but there are so many posts it's gonna take me too long to read it all and catch up with it.

I remember back in the day characters like The Beyonder or Galactus could probably be answers to this topic but the Beyonder got retconned into some weakling and Galactus seems to have been portrayed weaker over time.

[Azure]

The Foursaken.

[AcesX1X]

kitty pryde, zeefree.

[Daniel Mengsk]

The Living Tribunal.

One-Above-All.

[darknessatnoon]

Obviously, Xorn.

[lockerogue]

Sage

.....

[fortyseven]

Lifeguard?

[Daniel Mengsk]

Stan Lee

JQ

:rolleyes:

[Come To Deathstrike]

Magneto. He can throw the earth

[Daniel Mengsk]

Pixie.....


.....okay, I'll stop.

[GalactaSurfer]

Silver Surfer easily

The Hulk would eat the Phoenix.

[Ecks-man]

Hard to say, considering the Marvel universe has so many godly forces in it. One-Above-All and some of the others are probably more powerful.

[creaky]

Kitty Pryde. Especially now that she has a claw!

[Quinnhop]

Kitty Pryde. Especially now that she has a claw!

More like now that she's fused with a giant bullet.

Can you say headshot?

[Beacon]

Squirrel Girl

[creaky]

More like now that she's fused with a giant bullet.

Can you say headshot?

Wait, which canon is canon, again?

[darknessatnoon]

Silver Surfer easily

The Hulk would eat the Phoenix.

Hulk, no. Rulk, yes.

[Prodigy55]

Wait, which canon is canon, again?

I don't know which is worse :frown:

[Zeefree]

Yeah I'm pretty sure TOAA and Living Tribunal, but I've seen some message boards where Phoenix fans were arguing that the Phoenix Force is above them too.

[Slung]

Yeah I'm pretty sure TOAA and Living Tribunal, but I've seen some message boards where Phoenix fans were arguing that the Phoenix Force is above them too.

No true Phoenix fan cares who is more powerful.

[psycwave]

The correct answer is obviously Ink.

[Quinnhop]

The correct answer is obviously Ink.

Nah. He gave all his powers to Glass.

[Zeefree]

Heh there's some funny stuff here.

Anyway, yeah I knew starting a topic like this on an X-Books forum could lead to fans giving some angry or wacky responses, but I decided to take the risk.

I started a similar topic on a different website's comic forums once and I was getting a lot of answers, some of them and their explanations sounded pretty legit, but I figured they might have been coming from Phoenix haters or something, so I decided to check out a board where there would probably be people a little more knowledgeable about the Phoenix Force and hear what they had to say.

But doing something like that could be like going to a Dragonball Z thread and asking if there are any anime characters more powerful than Goku. I've seen people do that, and they get laughed off the board while people tell them there is no one.

Well, I tried ^_^

[RoguefanAM]

Heh there's some funny stuff here.

Anyway, yeah I knew starting a topic like this on an X-Books forum could lead to fans giving some angry or wacky responses, but I decided to take the risk.

I started a similar topic on a different website's comic forums once and I was getting a lot of answers, some of them and their explanations sounded pretty legit, but I figured they might have been coming from Phoenix haters or something, so I decided to check out a board where there would probably be people a little more knowledgeable about the Phoenix Force and hear what they had to say.

But doing something like that could be like going to a Dragonball Z thread and asking if there are any anime characters more powerful than Goku. I've seen people do that, and they get laughed off the board while people tell them there is no one.

Well, I tried ^_^

You did get some serious answers, though. 90% percent of the thread was joking, but it's not like you can't spot those easily and skip ahead.

IMO, there are a few beings. The-One-Above-All and LT being the obvious one. And some other cosmic abstracts. Don't expect many answers --- a lot of cosmic's just aren't explored enough, so we hardly have any feats to compare. Of the few we do, at times it's inconsistent, Jean's PF especially. She can range from being taken down by a faux-Magneto to devouring solar systems/causing divergent timelines all on her lonesome (basically creating a universe).

I'd say she's definitely more powerful than Beyonder, Galactus, SS, Thor, and Hulk. Scarlet Witch and Odin are debatable, but I think she succeeds them in power as well. And most reality warpers like Franklin Richards/Jaime Braddock.

[the Hornet]

Silver Surfer easily

The Hulk would eat the Phoenix.

I read an old Stan soapbox Q & A in the 80s where a fan asked who was more power, the Surfer or the Phoenix. The reply was Phoenix as she can easily destroy galaxies if needed but the Surfer can't. At her peak the Phoenix outclasses all the usual superbeings, she can probaply reduce the Hulk to nothing.

I would say Galactus is more powerful.

[Ryan W]

Squirrel Girl.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/DrDoomSquirrels.png

Even though NO ONE rivals Doom (no one) she bested him.

[BigMike20X6]

Alfie O'Meagan

[frostfire]

Some posts I've read on these forums lately imply X-23 is more powerful the phoenix! Or anyone else. Or not :evilsmile:

[theSuperAlbino]

Hulk, no. Rulk, yes.
Quiet, your giving Loeb ideas.

[The Lucky One]

Whenever you get into reality-altering powers, the waters become murky, because Marvel has so many characters who have been mentioned as theoretically capable of doing whatever they want. The Phoenix Force is in some ways kind of the gold standard, but there are other characters who have done things just as impressive. The Scarlet Witch, for instance, rewrote reality on at least two occasions.

As far as cosmic-level characters, yeah, some are as or more powerful than the Phoenix Force. Galactus at full power. The Living Tribunal. Jack Kirby, in that Fantastic Four issue where they went to heaven to retrieve Ben. Hell, the Black Panther was able to delay the Silver Surfer with a headlock... God only knows what he could do to Jean with a scissor hold.

If you take out the cosmic characters and restrict it to purely characters with human origins, you're still left with a few who have been said or shown to be as powerful as the Phoenix Force. The Scarlet Witch, as mentioned above. Franklin Richards can alter reality much the same way the Scarlet Witch can. Hyperstorm, the future son of Franklin Richards and Rachel Grey, was supposedly more powerful than both his parents.

But probably the most powerful would be Mad Jim Jaspers, from Alan Moore's Captain Britain run. A less powerful version of Jaspers from another universe created the Jaspers Warp, a wave of unreality that messed things up so badly in his continuum that the entire universe had to be destroyed to stop him and keep the wave from infecting other universes. The 616 Mad Jim Jaspers was said to be far more powerful, with the potential to warp not just his own universe but every one in the omniverse. He could create tesseract space, turn himself into inanimate objects while retaining his own mind, resurrect the dead with nothing but a thought, instantly transport anywhere in creation, completely ignore all laws of physics, and reconstitute his body after being fried into nothing but a skeleton. The only way he was defeated was by being teleported into Unspace, the void left behind by the destruction of his counterpart's universe. With no reality to warp he reverted to human form and was killed. Anywhere in reality, though, he was pretty much omnipotent. Not Phoenix-style "I can do anything if I just concentrate hard enough and eat a star to power up," more like "I can do anything just by blinking."

-D

[GalactaSurfer]

I read an old Stan soapbox Q & A in the 80s where a fan asked who was more power, the Surfer or the Phoenix. The reply was Phoenix as she can easily destroy galaxies if needed but the Surfer can't. At her peak the Phoenix outclasses all the usual superbeings, she can probaply reduce the Hulk to nothing.

I would say Galactus is more powerful.

Meh I think that was a lack in judgement. I think if Surfer was evil he could poof some galaxies too. If there is any hero that can take down the PF its Silver Surfer. His powers are so vast and he is so experienced with them that PF would be no big deal. He did after all take down 2 Galactus level threats.

[Zeefree]

Silver Surfer, maybe I don't know. I saw one comic where Jean Grey beat Galactus and 2 of his heralds pretty easily (though I think Galactus was starved and low on energy), so Surfer might not be able to.

But probably the most powerful would be Mad Jim Jaspers, from Alan Moore's Captain Britain run. A less powerful version of Jaspers from another universe created the Jaspers Warp, a wave of unreality that messed things up so badly in his continuum that the entire universe had to be destroyed to stop him and keep the wave from infecting other universes. The 616 Mad Jim Jaspers was said to be far more powerful, with the potential to warp not just his own universe but every one in the omniverse. He could create tesseract space, turn himself into inanimate objects while retaining his own mind, resurrect the dead with nothing but a thought, instantly transport anywhere in creation, completely ignore all laws of physics, and reconstitute his body after being fried into nothing but a skeleton. The only way he was defeated was by being teleported into Unspace, the void left behind by the destruction of his counterpart's universe. With no reality to warp he reverted to human form and was killed. Anywhere in reality, though, he was pretty much omnipotent. Not Phoenix-style "I can do anything if I just concentrate hard enough and eat a star to power up," more like "I can do anything just by blinking."


Interesting. I heard the Beyonder used to be like that too before his retcon. Something like he could instantly destroy universes and instantly re-create them if he wanted to.


I also found this image not too long ago:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/16696/417066-pheonix%2002_super.jpg

So maybe Onslaught is one of them.


As for me going around starting these "who can beat Phoenix" threads, I used to like Phoenix and I still think that her powers are really cool, but ever since I read the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix sagas in the Claremont run, I always thought that she belonged in a different comic, not X-Men. She was too powerful compared to her teammates. I mean come on, we have the X-Men, mutants with overall pretty simple powers (eye lazers, teleporting, etc) then there's Phoenix with all this "full control over matter in the Universe and psychic godhood". Huge difference. Is it any surprise that she was kicking everyone's butt in the Dark Phoenix saga? And then in Morrison's run she has the Phoenix Force and it's still super-powered, but she got killed by Xorn/Magneto...that was confusing. Anyway, I always thought she'd be better off in comics like the Infinity Gauntlet or something.

[Henry T.]

I'm sure there are plenty of cosmic beings that are just as powerful or more so than the Phoenix.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/x2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/x1-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/xj3.jpg

Jean Grey's cosmic moments (http://jeangreyphoenixfans.yuku.com/topic/6382/t/Jean-Grey-s-Most-Cosmic-Moments.html)

Jean Grey/White Phoenix moments (http://jeangreyphoenixfans.yuku.com/topic/6380/t/Looking-back-at-White-Phoenix.html)

Rachel Grey's cosmic moments (http://jeangreyphoenixfans.yuku.com/topic/6399/t/Rachel-Grey-s-Most-Cosmic-Moments.html)

[darknessatnoon]

http://www.incredible-hulk-library.com/superhero-library/Img/Gallery/Rulk-defeats-Silver-Surfer-l.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37499/810872-rulk_super.jpg

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/8543/redhulkcosmic.jpg

[CrimsonComedian]

Seriously speaking.. I don't think so. I doubt Dormammu could. I don't think Galactus can beat her. I doubt Thor can. Beyonder and Molecule man pose a problem... And any of the absorbers, like Surfer could potentially be a threat, depending on how much they can take.

[Prodigy55]

I think She-Rulk would be able to take her.

[long live jean grey]

The answer to your question:

No.

[darknessatnoon]

I think She-Rulk would be able to take her.

I think Jean and Elektra have gamma-merged to create She-Rulk.

[Perfection/Emma 2]

Rogue could easily take Phoenix

[Quinnhop]

Serious answers?

Clyde Wyncham

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/27967/897575-fan005.jpg

[Goshin]

grant morisson has the power to kill phoenix

[Slung]

grant morisson has the power to kill phoenix

Grant Morrison does not have the power to kill Magneto however. Does this mean that Magneto is more powerful than the Phoenix?

Discuss.

[Goshin]

http://www.incredible-hulk-library.com/superhero-library/Img/Gallery/Rulk-defeats-Silver-Surfer-l.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37499/810872-rulk_super.jpg

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/8543/redhulkcosmic.jpg


ok the whole red hulk thing is getting ridiculous now

[Slung]

ok the whole red hulk thing is getting ridiculous now

It looks awful. Who the hell is writing that mess?

[Goshin]

Grant Morrison does not have the power to kill Magneto however. Does this mean that Magneto is more powerful than the Phoenix?

Discuss.

he beat phoenix in uncanny 111 but she wasnt even at half power

[Goshin]

It looks awful. Who the hell is writing that mess?

i havent read hulk since he was bald and had his own cereal hell if i know

[Slung]

he beat phoenix in uncanny 111 but she wasnt even at half power

We are talking about cosmic Phoenix. Not Jean Grey in green in Antarctica Phoenix.

[Zeefree]

Yeah Henry T. thanks for showing the previous images, I only saw the one in the link I posted.

I also heard that Master Order and Lord Chaos could probably qualify as being as powerful or more than the Phoenix Force.

Now since there's a lot of Jean Grey and Phoenix fans on this board, before I get flamed I just want to say again that I used to like Phoenix. One reason why I started disliking her was about what I said earlier about her being too powerful for being grouped with the X-Men, and the other reason I mentioned on the Dirty Deeds: Jean Grey thread, was her D'Bari genocide incident.

I know at first Phoenix was Jean Grey after her full potential was unlocked, and then later it was changed to Jean Grey being an avatar for the entity the Phoenix Force. And then later it was revealed that this Phoenix Force is the force that holds the whole universe or multiverse together, the force that brought the universe into being (I think) and all this other stuff like the Force will eventually destroy the universe, or if the PF dies, the universe goes out and all that.

By that point I was like oh great, so the Marvel Universe is governed by some angry, mentally-unstable firebird thing that will wipe out entire species or civilizations just because she sees them as "unfit" or an evolutionary "dead end". And these Phoenix Force stories added a lot of continuity confusion that I'm still trying to understand. Anyway I'm getting off track but like I said I started seeing a lot of threads claiming how Phoenix is the most powerful character in the MU so I started asking around to see if that's true.

[FeminineMystique]

Pixie.....


.....okay, I'll stop.

Pixie would make the Phoenix Force her BITCH:biggrin:

You all know it's true. :wink:

[Azure]

Excuse me, but the First Fallen (or Foursaken, or whatever it's called) is a proper answer. Chris Claremont said so, so nyah-nyah.

[<3 one eyed cyclops <3]

NO! :evilsmile: :evilsmile: :evilsmile:

[Dave13]

I'd say she's definitely more powerful than Beyonder, Galactus, SS, Thor, and Hulk. Scarlet Witch and Odin are debatable, but I think she succeeds them in power as well. And most reality warpers like Franklin Richards/Jaime Braddock.


I Highly doubt it, We are already aware of the Phoenix being Beaten twice in alternate universes, once at the Hand of New Son and the Marquis of Death has also done it multiple times

So it's obvious alot of those you listed may be apable of beating phoenix

[Nathan]

Gambit at his New Sun power level, or even New Sun he already killed Apocalypse and the Phonix force in his own Universe, hell he destroyed his own Universe

[Supercoolshay]

Pixie would make the Phoenix Force her BITCH:biggrin:

You all know it's true. :wink:

pixie dust > pheonix raptors.

[The Lucky One]

Excuse me, but the First Fallen (or Foursaken, or whatever it's called) is a proper answer. Chris Claremont said so, so nyah-nyah.

True, but so is Necron.

...did we ever find out how there could be two Anti-Phoenixes again?

-D

[ZNOP]

I think it's about time I ring in here... The question was/is "Are there any Marvel characters more powerful than the Phoenix Force?" The question thus far is being answered from a Jean Grey's perspective. Jean Grey was "Phoenix" Not the "Phoenix Force" Unless, you want cite those Johnny come lately, retconed, made to fit our needs to get paid stories:rolleyes:

Cosmic entities

* The Living Tribunal is the judge of the cosmic entities who ensures that the cosmic laws are obeyed, and safeguards the multiverse from mystical imbalance. It has declared itself to "transcend the realms of Death and Eternity, Order and Chaos. All the opposing realities", likening itself to all spectra and scales of dualities and balance. Before the Living Tribunal can act his three faces must reach a unanimous verdict; these represent Necessity, Vengeance and Equity. It claims to act as a representative for an even higher being, that has never been explicitly shown; though this higher power has been referred to as the One Above All, but only specifically in a later retconned Guardians of the Galaxy storyline. The Tribunal is generally considered to be the most powerful of all known cosmic entities. Note that the Tribunal rules over all of the Marvel Universe's alternate versions as well; an M-Body of the Living Tribunal is present in each universe of the Marvel multiverse.

* Nemesis - A being formed when the seven Infinity Gems come together. It claims to exist to create universes.

* Eternity - Sentience and supreme Time being of the universe. Sometimes acts in conjunction with its counterpart, Infinity. When talking to the Silver Surfer about various universal trinities the Living Tribunal likened Eternity to necessity.

* Death - Embodies the end that eventually comes to all living things, ranging from single cell organisms, sentient mortal beings to the universe itself. The opposite of Eternity. The Living Tribunal likened Death to vengeance.

* Infinity - The counterpart of Eternity, but appears as a female. Believed to embody the concept of space, and along with Eternity embodies the space/time continuum. Perhaps better described as "the other side of the coin," and not as a fully separate entity from Eternity.

* Oblivion - The counterpart of Death, but appears as a male. Embodies the nothingness from which everything came and will eventually return to. Perhaps better described as "the other side of the coin," and not as a fully separate entity from Death.

* Master Order - Embodies the universal concept of Order. Opposite of Lord Chaos. Likened to necessity by the Living Tribunal.

* Lord Chaos - Embodies the universal concept of Chaos. Opposite of Master Order. Together with Master Order, Lord Chaos claims to be responsible for assigning fates to mortals. Likened to vengeance by the Living Tribunal. Master Order and Lord Chaos created the In-Betweener as a balance between them.

* Galactus - The devourer of worlds, and the only survivor of the previous universe, reborn in the Big Bang as a "galactic ravager". While not an abstract being in the typical, non-corporeal sense, he has been described as the "third force of the universe", he has stated that he exists to rectify the imbalances of Eternity and Death, prevents Abraxas' destructive influence on the universe, and in one alternate future initiates the creation of the next universe. He has called Eternity "father", and Death has called him "my husband and father, my brother and son", as they are "two corners of that great triangle that is the universe" and were "born at the same moment". The Living Tribunal likened Galactus to equity.

* In-Betweener - Represents the synthesis between all concepts within the universe, such as life and death, order and chaos, love and hate, god and man, impotence and omnipotence. However, it resents its servitude to Order and Chaos, and has tried to break free several times. The In-Betweener was directly created by Order and Chaos and is looked upon by them as an agent. The Living Tribunal likened it to equity.

* The Phoenix Force- The culmination of all psionic energy that exists, has existed, or ever will exist, via sentient life. Its actual function is unclear, but it has been described as 'the passion of creation', 'rebirth through destruction', or 'to burn away the obsolete'. In the universe which existed before the current Marvel Universe, the Phoenix Force saved all life from damnation, and ensured that Galan remained alive long enough to meet and unite with the Sentience of the Universe, to be reborn as Galactus in the current creation. It has a tendency to materially manifest via telepathic mortals. At other times, it is known to exist as a non-conscious essence of nature, devoid of interaction with the physical realms. The Phoenix Force is usually associated with the mortal mutants Jean Grey, or Rachel Summers who serve as avatars/hosts of the Phoenix Force. It may also be noted that the Phoenix is the only of the cosmic entities that has matched and may have surpassed the power of the Living Tribunal; for when it manifested as Dark Phoenix while posing as Jean Grey, it became second only to the One-Above-All and equal to the Living Tribunal.

* Celestials - A race of cosmic beings with several human-like qualities. Apparently, they guide cosmic evolution to create new beings such as themselves, and possess power enough to create entire universes, or contain such within themselves. They have numerous possible origins.

* Cosmic Cubes - Objects of great power. Not always cubical, and in such cases referred as "cosmic containment units". Created by the Beyonders to test the concept of desire in mortal beings. They can grant wishes, but eventually are "born" into individual entities. The Shaper of Worlds, Kubik, and Kosmos are all former cosmic cubes. Possess power enough to erase galaxies from existence, attain galactic size and create universes, or collapse one upon itself.

* Stranger – A cosmic mystery. The Living Tribunal once stated that on the empty fourth side of its skull "there could have been the face of the Stranger", and "I bestride all dualities, but I am not unified! I judge the dualities, and must thus know their nature! I who could be all must be but a part! I must be apart!" The Stranger initially claimed to be a composite being, the result of the planet Gigantus' population merged into one entity, although this is likely a lie told by the Stanger to keep his true origin shrouded in mystery. The Stranger himself may not know his true origins, thus making him a stranger even to himself.

* Kronos- Once the ruler of Eternals of Earth. One of his experiments blew his atoms apart, so he now exists as a humanoid nebula. Apparently considered a cosmic entity with control over time.

* Anomaly - A bizarre being that embodied exceptions to all things. It existed in a state similar to that of Chronos, but was killed (and its position and power assumed) by Oblivion's agent, Maelstrom. However, it was later shown to have been resurrected.

* Eon - Responsible for choosing the Protectors of the Universe, mortal champions elected to face one specific menace to life in the universe each. Killed by Maelstrom, but succeeded by its "daughter" Epoch.

* Origin - A being apparently responsible for the existence of all superheroes and villains, by manipulating events and implanting ideas in their minds. Needs to incarnate in living bodies. Its enemy is the Un-Being.

* Un-Being - An agent of Oblivion, seeks to kill Origin and erase all reality. Apparently also needs to incarnate in living bodies.

* The Beyonders are a race from outside the main physical universe. Their form and purpose is unknown. It is known that they exist outside of linear time, and that they created the Cosmic Cubes.

* The Infinites - Higher-dimensional entities far above Eternity, who once tried to 'align' the universe to a more balanced and efficient configuration. They are using planet-sized Servitors and Walkers to act as representatives and workers in lower realms.

* The Proemial Gods - Seemingly extinct. "Conceived through intent" by the Universe itself in the earliest stages of the creation event, as "order to balance chaos", and "caretakers", "tasked to maintain cosmic consonance". When Diableri of Chaos wished to impose his own will upon the Universe, a civil war broke out amongst them. Eventually, Diableri brought the war to Galactus. Galactus personally slew Diableri, and imprisoned the latter's two main lieutenants, Tenebrous of the Darkness Between and Aegis Lady of All Sorrows, possibly along with Antiphon the Overseer, within the Kyln.

[Zeefree]

Interesting post ZNOP. That clears up some things for me about Marvel's top entities but at the same time confuses me again.



It may also be noted that the Phoenix is the only of the cosmic entities that has matched and may have surpassed the power of the Living Tribunal; for when it manifested as Dark Phoenix while posing as Jean Grey, it became second only to the One-Above-All and equal to the Living Tribunal.


This is one of the confusing parts. I do remember reading a part in the Dark Phoenix saga comic where the Watcher said something like "Jean Grey became second only to the creator" but I'm not sure if things have changed since then or not.

Earlier in your post you said Jean Grey as "Phoenix", and the Phoenix Force are not the same thing. But that part above in italics is making it sound like Dark Phoenix is the most powerful version of the Phoenix, or Phoenix Force at its best. I've read on some websites that Dark Phoenix isn't as powerful as the Phoenix Force or White Phoenix of the crown, and that it was only a portion of the Phoenix Force that Jean was using.

But I don't see how Dark Phoenix could be as powerful as the Living Tribunal, because IIRC the biggest things we saw her do was absorb a star and fly through space with her firebird form being seen around the universe. Not to mention that like Galactus, she had to feed to get more energy. So I'm not really sure how Dark Phoenix is the most powerful Phoenix form, and really don't see what puts her up there with Living Tribunal. Was that "second only to the creator" line in the comic just Claremont putting in a dramatic figure of speech or something?

[Dave13]

It was Hyperbole,

There are many who could beat the Dark phoenix and they aren't neccesarily Cosmic entities some of them may have power equal to them some aren't even that powerfull

[Raptor]

Thanos....especially with Infinity Gauntlet.

[Raptor]

...Punisher:tongue:

[Home made ectoplasm]

Gambit at his New Sun power level, or even New Sun he already killed Apocalypse and the Phonix force in his own Universe, hell he destroyed his own Universe

Really, Gambit? I have never read this story, but it sure sounds ridiculous.

[Come To Deathstrike]

Really, Gambit? I have never read this story, but it sure sounds ridiculous.

LOL. It is. If Sinister didn't chop half of his brain out in the 70's, then Gambit would have exploded the universe. Basically.

[Monty_Cristo]

Shortpack has the power of 1,000 exploding squirrel girls

[Zeefree]

Thanos....especially with Infinity Gauntlet.

Haha actually, in the Phoenix vs. topics I've seen over the years Thanos with the Guantlet was one of the characters that the Phoenix anti-fans were listing as one who is more powerful than the Phoenix Force.

But the argument I've seen the most, involving the Phoenix, is Phoenix Force vs. Eternity. Threads like that go on pretty long. They were saying stuff like the Phoenix Force is the embodiment of all life and power. But the Eternity fans were saying that that wasn't true, and that the Phoenix Force was the embodiment of the psychic energy of life, and that Eternity is the whole embodiment of time, space, and life.

But some people reached agreements that neither could destroy the other, or that neither could exist without the other or something like that.

[marvell2100]

Shortpack has the power of 1,000 exploding squirrel girls

And that's when he's not showing off!

Molecule Man if he hasn't been mentioned already.

[darknessatnoon]

I think it's about time I ring in here... The question was/is "Are there any Marvel characters more powerful than the Phoenix Force?" The question thus far is being answered from a Jean Grey's perspective. Jean Grey was "Phoenix" Not the "Phoenix Force" Unless, you want cite those Johnny come lately, retconed, made to fit our needs to get paid stories:rolleyes:

Cosmic entities

* The Living Tribunal is the judge of the cosmic entities who ensures that the cosmic laws are obeyed, and safeguards the multiverse from mystical imbalance. It has declared itself to "transcend the realms of Death and Eternity, Order and Chaos. All the opposing realities", likening itself to all spectra and scales of dualities and balance. Before the Living Tribunal can act his three faces must reach a unanimous verdict; these represent Necessity, Vengeance and Equity. It claims to act as a representative for an even higher being, that has never been explicitly shown; though this higher power has been referred to as the One Above All, but only specifically in a later retconned Guardians of the Galaxy storyline. The Tribunal is generally considered to be the most powerful of all known cosmic entities. Note that the Tribunal rules over all of the Marvel Universe's alternate versions as well; an M-Body of the Living Tribunal is present in each universe of the Marvel multiverse.

* Nemesis - A being formed when the seven Infinity Gems come together. It claims to exist to create universes.

* Eternity - Sentience and supreme Time being of the universe. Sometimes acts in conjunction with its counterpart, Infinity. When talking to the Silver Surfer about various universal trinities the Living Tribunal likened Eternity to necessity.

* Death - Embodies the end that eventually comes to all living things, ranging from single cell organisms, sentient mortal beings to the universe itself. The opposite of Eternity. The Living Tribunal likened Death to vengeance.

* Infinity - The counterpart of Eternity, but appears as a female. Believed to embody the concept of space, and along with Eternity embodies the space/time continuum. Perhaps better described as "the other side of the coin," and not as a fully separate entity from Eternity.

* Oblivion - The counterpart of Death, but appears as a male. Embodies the nothingness from which everything came and will eventually return to. Perhaps better described as "the other side of the coin," and not as a fully separate entity from Death.

* Master Order - Embodies the universal concept of Order. Opposite of Lord Chaos. Likened to necessity by the Living Tribunal.

* Lord Chaos - Embodies the universal concept of Chaos. Opposite of Master Order. Together with Master Order, Lord Chaos claims to be responsible for assigning fates to mortals. Likened to vengeance by the Living Tribunal. Master Order and Lord Chaos created the In-Betweener as a balance between them.

* Galactus - The devourer of worlds, and the only survivor of the previous universe, reborn in the Big Bang as a "galactic ravager". While not an abstract being in the typical, non-corporeal sense, he has been described as the "third force of the universe", he has stated that he exists to rectify the imbalances of Eternity and Death, prevents Abraxas' destructive influence on the universe, and in one alternate future initiates the creation of the next universe. He has called Eternity "father", and Death has called him "my husband and father, my brother and son", as they are "two corners of that great triangle that is the universe" and were "born at the same moment". The Living Tribunal likened Galactus to equity.

* In-Betweener - Represents the synthesis between all concepts within the universe, such as life and death, order and chaos, love and hate, god and man, impotence and omnipotence. However, it resents its servitude to Order and Chaos, and has tried to break free several times. The In-Betweener was directly created by Order and Chaos and is looked upon by them as an agent. The Living Tribunal likened it to equity.

* The Phoenix Force- The culmination of all psionic energy that exists, has existed, or ever will exist, via sentient life. Its actual function is unclear, but it has been described as 'the passion of creation', 'rebirth through destruction', or 'to burn away the obsolete'. In the universe which existed before the current Marvel Universe, the Phoenix Force saved all life from damnation, and ensured that Galan remained alive long enough to meet and unite with the Sentience of the Universe, to be reborn as Galactus in the current creation. It has a tendency to materially manifest via telepathic mortals. At other times, it is known to exist as a non-conscious essence of nature, devoid of interaction with the physical realms. The Phoenix Force is usually associated with the mortal mutants Jean Grey, or Rachel Summers who serve as avatars/hosts of the Phoenix Force. It may also be noted that the Phoenix is the only of the cosmic entities that has matched and may have surpassed the power of the Living Tribunal; for when it manifested as Dark Phoenix while posing as Jean Grey, it became second only to the One-Above-All and equal to the Living Tribunal.

* Celestials - A race of cosmic beings with several human-like qualities. Apparently, they guide cosmic evolution to create new beings such as themselves, and possess power enough to create entire universes, or contain such within themselves. They have numerous possible origins.

* Cosmic Cubes - Objects of great power. Not always cubical, and in such cases referred as "cosmic containment units". Created by the Beyonders to test the concept of desire in mortal beings. They can grant wishes, but eventually are "born" into individual entities. The Shaper of Worlds, Kubik, and Kosmos are all former cosmic cubes. Possess power enough to erase galaxies from existence, attain galactic size and create universes, or collapse one upon itself.

* Stranger – A cosmic mystery. The Living Tribunal once stated that on the empty fourth side of its skull "there could have been the face of the Stranger", and "I bestride all dualities, but I am not unified! I judge the dualities, and must thus know their nature! I who could be all must be but a part! I must be apart!" The Stranger initially claimed to be a composite being, the result of the planet Gigantus' population merged into one entity, although this is likely a lie told by the Stanger to keep his true origin shrouded in mystery. The Stranger himself may not know his true origins, thus making him a stranger even to himself.

* Kronos- Once the ruler of Eternals of Earth. One of his experiments blew his atoms apart, so he now exists as a humanoid nebula. Apparently considered a cosmic entity with control over time.

* Anomaly - A bizarre being that embodied exceptions to all things. It existed in a state similar to that of Chronos, but was killed (and its position and power assumed) by Oblivion's agent, Maelstrom. However, it was later shown to have been resurrected.

* Eon - Responsible for choosing the Protectors of the Universe, mortal champions elected to face one specific menace to life in the universe each. Killed by Maelstrom, but succeeded by its "daughter" Epoch.

* Origin - A being apparently responsible for the existence of all superheroes and villains, by manipulating events and implanting ideas in their minds. Needs to incarnate in living bodies. Its enemy is the Un-Being.

* Un-Being - An agent of Oblivion, seeks to kill Origin and erase all reality. Apparently also needs to incarnate in living bodies.

* The Beyonders are a race from outside the main physical universe. Their form and purpose is unknown. It is known that they exist outside of linear time, and that they created the Cosmic Cubes.

* The Infinites - Higher-dimensional entities far above Eternity, who once tried to 'align' the universe to a more balanced and efficient configuration. They are using planet-sized Servitors and Walkers to act as representatives and workers in lower realms.

* The Proemial Gods - Seemingly extinct. "Conceived through intent" by the Universe itself in the earliest stages of the creation event, as "order to balance chaos", and "caretakers", "tasked to maintain cosmic consonance". When Diableri of Chaos wished to impose his own will upon the Universe, a civil war broke out amongst them. Eventually, Diableri brought the war to Galactus. Galactus personally slew Diableri, and imprisoned the latter's two main lieutenants, Tenebrous of the Darkness Between and Aegis Lady of All Sorrows, possibly along with Antiphon the Overseer, within the Kyln.

Why isn't Gambit on this list?

[marvell2100]

Oh yeah, and Captain Universe.

[Dave13]

Why isn't Gambit on this list?

Because that List is a list of Cosmic entities not a list of people capable of beating the Phoenix

[.LuckyStar.]

Who is One-Above-All?

[darknessatnoon]

Because that List is a list of Cosmic entities not a list of people capable of beating the Phoenix

You make him sound pretty cosmic, tho.

[Dave13]

Really, Gambit? I have never read this story, but it sure sounds ridiculous.

Complete Mastery over kinetic and Potential energy

For such a weilder it's within possibility

[darknessatnoon]

Complete Mastery over kinetic and Potential energy

For such a weilder it's within possibility

That's a long way from charging playing cards.

[Dave13]

Who is One-Above-All?

There are two;

One-Above-All the celestial leader

The One above All (TOAA) Marvel Multi-Universe God and creator

[Slant]

That's a long way from charging playing cards.

Thats the way Sinister likes him.

[Dave13]

That's a long way from charging playing cards.

Lobotomy FTW

[4sake]

Really, Gambit? I have never read this story, but it sure sounds ridiculous.

http://www.comicvine.com/new-son/29-14150/

[Daniel Mengsk]

Who is One-Above-All?

JQ. :cool:

[4sake]

Who is One-Above-All?

http://www.comicvine.com/one-above-all/29-29861/

http://www.comicvine.com/one-above-all/29-44473/

[X-Man#4]

Some posts I've read on these forums lately imply X-23 is more powerful the phoenix! Or anyone else. Or not :evilsmile:

QFT. And Frostfire, it's only like this when she's being written badly and completely OOC, as she is currently suffering within the pages of X-Force.

[Home made ectoplasm]

shocking. .

[Daniel Mengsk]

QFT. And Frostfire, it's only like this when she's being written badly and completely OOC, as she is currently suffering within the pages of X-Force.

No. Just.......no.

[The Isolationist]

http://i30.tinypic.com/acwyaa.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/n1qcs5.jpg

[Azure]

Well, I may as well put in my vote for Darkstar being more powerful than The Phoenix Force. THERE IS NO DEFINED UPPER LIMIT FOR HER POWERS!
It can never be confirmed that Darkstar isn't stronger than The Phoenix Force.

[X-Man#4]

No. Just.......no.

You beg to differ Giles?? May I ask why you disagree with this assessment?

[X-Man#4]

shocking. .

JAU,

I would've thought my views on this very issue would be well known to you since we have discussed this issue in other threads. Regardless, I hope that you were not too startled when I expressed my concerns with respect to this topic.

[Azure]

You beg to differ Giles?? May I ask why you disagree with this assessment?

JAU,

I would've thought my views on this very issue would be well known to you since we have discussed this issue in other threads. Regardless, I hope that you were not too startled when I expressed my concerns with respect to this topic.

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/77/l_e1d5f438537e4928a1581ca5ece8fb4b.png
(thanks Shade101!!)

[Daniel Mengsk]

You beg to differ Giles?? May I ask why you disagree with this assessment?

No to your spreading of "I hate K&Y and X-23 is overexposed"-arguments to this thread; you have your very on thread for that:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=279855

[X-Man#4]

[(thanks Shade101!!)

You have quoted me Azure, but for what purpose I am unsure, though I am of course flattered. Perhaps you will elaborate.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Azure, FYI, constant posts on the same subject could be considered trolling

[Daniel Mengsk]

http://i30.tinypic.com/acwyaa.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/n1qcs5.jpg

Where is this from, must have! :tongue: 4sake!

So is Jean of 616 the most powerful Phoenxi in existance, compared to say another alternate Phoenix-Jean?

[X-Man#4]

No to your spreading of "I hate K&Y and X-23 is overexposed"-arguments to this thread; you have your very on thread for that:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=279855

Hate spreading???? Hardly Giles, hardly. In fact, you'll note that I was merely expressing my support for Frostfire's original statement. Furthermore, the original poster asked whether there was any character stronger than the Phenix Force...I merely responded affimatively, expressing my disappointment that in C&C's recent string of terrible performances in X-Force, X23 fits the bill decribed. I hope that this helps clarify things.

[.LuckyStar.]

Thanks, guys.

ZNOP, do you have descriptions of the Cockrum Gods? I think they might be very powerful too.
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff258/616pictures/BR-616/exiles-end04.jpg

[Azure]

Azure, FYI, constant posts on the same subject could be considered trolling

Oh. Well then, I shall accept the fact that you have all grasped my point, and move on with my life. It dawns on me now, that it is through embracing diversity of thought and opinion that we truly make our own beliefs known to others, and not through attempting to bludgeon other people into acceptance.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Oh. Well then, I shall accept the fact that you have all grasped my point, and move on with my life. It dawns on me now, that it is through embracing diversity of thought and opinion that we truly make our own beliefs known to others, and not through attempting to bludgeon other people into acceptance.

shortpack.

[Daniel Mengsk]

shortpack.

Who? :wink:

[Azure]

Who? :wink:

He's just some Mary Sue wallpaper dressing. He's not important.

[X-Man#4]

Oh. Well then, I shall accept the fact that you have all grasped my point, and move on with my life. It dawns on me now, that it is through embracing diversity of thought and opinion that we truly make our own beliefs known to others, and not through attempting to bludgeon other people into acceptance.

BRAVO Azure! I could not agree more with this sentiment. Might I suggest copying and pasting this post into the X23 appreciation thread as there are many there who would no doubt benefit from your sage advice?! I would, but I'm afraid that those who could most use your prescription would slough off the message if it came under my name.

[Azure]

BRAVO Azure! I could not agree more with this sentiment. Might I suggest copying and pasting this post into the X23 appreciation thread as there are many there who would no doubt benefit from your sage advice?! I would, but I'm afraid that those who could most use your prescription would slough off the message if it came under my name.

Are you on Bebo?

[Daniel Mengsk]

He's just some Mary Sue wallpaper dressing. He's not important.

Aha, thanks Azure. :wink: And btw, I for one like you, when I failed miserably, you were kind to me. LOL

I merely responded affimatively, expressing my disappointment that in C&C's recent string of terrible performances in X-Force, X23 fits the bill decribed.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/89/235179966_b21ce1244b.jpg

Like I said: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=279855

I might discuss that with you another time, but not today. Sorry, but I'm to tired.


Rachel fough Galactus once, does that count as "Phoenix"?

[ZNOP]

Interesting post ZNOP. That clears up some things for me about Marvel's top entities but at the same time confuses me again.

It may also be noted that the Phoenix is the only of the cosmic entities that has matched and may have surpassed the power of the Living Tribunal; for when it manifested as Dark Phoenix while posing as Jean Grey, it became second only to the One-Above-All and equal to the Living Tribunal.

This is one of the confusing parts. I do remember reading a part in the Dark Phoenix saga comic where the Watcher said something like "Jean Grey became second only to the creator" but I'm not sure if things have changed since then or not.

Earlier in your post you said Jean Grey as "Phoenix", and the Phoenix Force are not the same thing. But that part above in italics is making it sound like Dark Phoenix is the most powerful version of the Phoenix, or Phoenix Force at its best. I've read on some websites that Dark Phoenix isn't as powerful as the Phoenix Force or White Phoenix of the crown, and that it was only a portion of the Phoenix Force that Jean was using.

First, let it be known that I do not respect nor recognize this "White Phoenix of The Crown." Second, (The short version) Originally, and most importantly, Jean Grey was simply a avatar/host shell for the Phoenix Force. Hence the reason I always refer to her as Phoenix/Jean Grey. Now, Dark Phoenix/Jean Grey (Albeit a brainwashed Phoenix/Jean Grey) just didn't give a $#!+ and, with her abilities which included but were not limited to -- TP/TK Matter manipulation (subatomic level), energy absorption and manipulation (cosmic scale) unaided flight thru time and space -- and that's just off the top of my head, appeared to many as being more powerful. Under the circumstances she was. Third, many readers/posters will say things that have no basis. no on panel proof, or just for the hell of it. Go figure:rolleyes: After her "rebirth" Jean Grey/Phoenix eventually gained the same abilities as her counterpart with the exception of being driven insane.


But I don't see how Dark Phoenix could be as powerful as the Living Tribunal, because IIRC the biggest things we saw her do was absorb a star and fly through space with her firebird form being seen around the universe. Not to mention that like Galactus, she had to feed to get more energy. So I'm not really sure how Dark Phoenix is the most powerful Phoenix form, and really don't see what puts her up there with Living Tribunal. Was that "second only to the creator" line in the comic just Claremont putting in a dramatic figure of speech or something?

Again, Dark Phoenix/Jean Gray was The Phoenix Force in Jean Grey's form -- memories, DNA, ect... living her, (Jean's) life while Jean Grey/Phoenix was in Jamaica Bay waiting to be reborn. As for Phoenix being second only to the creator... Hmmmm... I'd have to read that for myself before I could comment. What issue is that dialog in? I have to assume that he was talking about the Phoenix Force and not one of it's Avatar/host(s)

[Azure]

First, let it be known that I do not respect nor recognize this "White Phoenix of The Crown." Second, (The short version) Originally, and most importantly, Jean Grey was simply a avatar/host shell for the Phoenix Force. Hence the reason I always refer to her as Phoenix/Jean Grey. Now, Dark Phoenix/Jean Grey (Albeit a brainwashed Phoenix/Jean Grey) just didn't give a $#!+ and, with her abilities which included but were not limited to -- TP/TK Matter manipulation (subatomic level), energy absorption and manipulation (cosmic scale) unaided flight thru time and space -- and that's just off the top of my head, appeared to many as being more powerful. Under the circumstances she was. Third, many readers/posters will say things that have no basis. no on panel proof, or just for the hell of it. Go figure:rolleyes: After her "rebirth" Jean Grey/Phoenix eventually gained the same abilities as her counterpart with the exception of being driven insane.




Again, Dark Phoenix/Jean Gray was The Phoenix Force in Jean Grey's form -- memories, DNA, ect... living her, (Jean's) life while Jean Grey/Phoenix was in Jamaica Bay waiting to be reborn. As for Phoenix being second only to the creator... Hmmmm... I'd have to read that for myself before I could comment. What issue is that dialog in? I have to assume that he was talking about the Phoenix Force and not one of it's Avatar/host(s)

I see that you haven't even tried to disprove the Pixie/Darkstar theories which others have suggested. Because they are UNDISPROVABLE.

[Dave13]

What the Hells wrong with you people How did you turn this thread into a Pixie and X-23 diss thread?

Don't know if you're being serious byt Darkstar would be murdered by Phoenix

[Azure]

What the Hells wrong with you people How did you turn this thread into a Pixie and X-23 diss thread?

Don't know if you're being serious byt Darkstar would be murdered by Phoenix

Unproven! Nobody knows if The Phoenix Force is more powerful than The Darkforce :frown:

I also am upset by people turning this thread into a Pixie diss thread. Please refrain!

[Almighty Pejo]

Originally, and most importantly, Jean Grey died from radiation while piloting the Starcore shuttle through a solar flare, allowing her to reach her full potential as a psi and become a being of pure psychic energy before reforming herself as Phoenix, as presented in Uncanny X-Men 125, 12 issues before the inception and on panel reference to any sort of force, which made its debut in Uncanny X-Men 137, directly before Jean's second death. This force was said to be symbiotic with Jean, neither being able to exist without the other. Ten years later, in Fantastic Four 286, the story was changed to say Jean Grey was never Phoenix and that the woman that appeared between Uncanny X-Men 101 and 137 was a doppelganger created by the Phoenix Force using Jean as a template for itself, as to absolve Jean of the mass murder of the D'Bari, robbing her of being the focus of the most enduring story told within these comics, leading to one of the largest and most absurd clusterfucks of a retcon ever conceived.I fixed that error for you.

[ZNOP]

Thanks, guys.

ZNOP, do you have descriptions of the Cockrum Gods? I think they might be very powerful too.
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff258/616pictures/BR-616/exiles-end04.jpg

I never read the title. What's that Exiles? Need more info on the characters, names would be nice.

I see that you haven't even tried to disprove the Pixie/Darkstar theories which others have suggested. Because they are UNDISPROVABLE.

There is no reason for me to try -- not when it's like you said "undisprovable" :rolleyes:

[Zeefree]

Again, Dark Phoenix/Jean Gray was The Phoenix Force in Jean Grey's form -- memories, DNA, ect... living her, (Jean's) life while Jean Grey/Phoenix was in Jamaica Bay waiting to be reborn. As for Phoenix being second only to the creator... Hmmmm... I'd have to read that for myself before I could comment. What issue is that dialog in? I have to assume that he was talking about the Phoenix Force and not one of it's Avatar/host(s)

I think it was in the intro to Uncanny Chapter 137. The end of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Maybe the Watcher was talking about the Force itself, but I think also in 137 Jean was talking to herself and saying something similar like "I held the universe in my hand, I was second only to the creator" or something like that. But since I didn't see her holding the universe, I think it all might have been hyperbole.

As for White Phoenix, I don't know much about her myself, so I got most of my info on her in the respect thread I posted in my first post, and some other sites. From what I've gathered, the Phoenix was originally Jean at her best. Then in order to bring her back to life, it was retconned into being an entity called The Phoenix Force who made contact with Jean and made a replica of her. That one destroyed the D'Bari system. Then either Grant Morrison or some other writers changed it into a mixture of both. Something like it was Jean, while wielding the Phoenix Force, and that she was always meant to be its primary avatar. I'll have to check again. There were some scans of White Phoenix on that respect thread, that showed her supposedly holding the universe in her hands for real this time while she was in the "White Hot Room" with some other avatars.

Man all this stuff is a lot to think about. No matter how many scans I read or sites I visit, I can't seem to take all this Phoenix stuff in, in a way that makes perfect sense. But it's not just X-Men, other comics get like this too. To think all this stuff probably would have never happened if Claremont and Byrne just had Dark Phoenix destroy an uninhabited solar system like in the cartoon. It's not like it would have suddenly made the story bad or anything.

[Almighty Pejo]

To think all this stuff probably would have never happened if Claremont and Byrne just had Dark Phoenix destroy an uninhabited solar system like in the cartoon. It's not like it would have suddenly made the story bad or anything.That was what was originally written. Jean was to devour the star of an uninhabited system and kill a Shi'Ar vessel which attacked her. She was then to be taken into custody, lose against the imperial guard, be given a psychic lobotomy and returned to earth as a normal, mortal, mundane human. John however decided to draw the scene with one of the planets being inhabited and killed, and Chris coupled that new idea with the dying screams of billions of people, mass murder took place, Jim Shooter decided to have her tied to a comet and tortured by meteorites for the rest of her immortal life for such henious actions, and Chris said he just couldn't do that to her, so he planted the seeds of dissent (Phoenix Force) and opted to kill her instead.

[Zeefree]

Interesting Almighty Pejo, I never new they originally had it to have her destroy an uninhabited system. Darn Byrne, you ****ed up! Now we got all this retcon crap. It's also interesting what you said about Jim Shooter's idea though. I can't really blame him for suggesting that. I don't know if having Jean be stuck that way forever as a punishment would be fair, but maybe for a long time or something. 5,000,000,000 dead is too much to just get away like nothing happened.

I already said this in the "Dirty Deeds" thread, but Superman is my favorite DC hero. And just for some random example let's say one day he got some kind of sudden extra energy from the sun and started randomly started massacring people, I'd lose a lot of respect for him. That's probably why I didn't like Phoenix or Jean anymore after reading Dark Phoenix Saga. I know her genocide thing made the story more dark and all, but I think the story still could have gotten famous even without that.

[ZNOP]

Again, Dark Phoenix/Jean Gray was The Phoenix Force in Jean Grey's form -- memories, DNA, ect... living her, (Jean's) life while Jean Grey/Phoenix was in Jamaica Bay waiting to be reborn. As for Phoenix being second only to the creator... Hmmmm... I'd have to read that for myself before I could comment. What issue is that dialog in? I have to assume that he was talking about the Phoenix Force and not one of it's Avatar/host(s)

I think it was in the intro to Uncanny Chapter 137. The end of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Maybe the Watcher was talking about the Force itself, but I think also in 137 Jean was talking to herself and saying something similar like "I held the universe in my hand, I was second only to the creator" or something like that. But since I didn't see her holding the universe, I think it all might have been hyperbole.

It was the Watcher who gave that little speech in UX-Men #137. I don't recall Jean ever saying anything like that -- but, It's sounds like you are remembering bits and pieces of Classic X-Men #8, and or #43, when Jean was talking to Death in the Afterlife. (Now, currently known as the White Hot Room:rolleyes: )

As for White Phoenix, I don't know much about her myself, so I got most of my info on her in the respect thread I posted in my first post, and some other sites. From what I've gathered, the Phoenix was originally Jean at her best. Then in order to bring her back to life, it was retconned into being an entity called The Phoenix Force who made contact with Jean and made a replica of her. That one destroyed the D'Bari system. Then either Grant Morrison or some other writers changed it into a mixture of both. Something like it was Jean, while wielding the Phoenix Force, and that she was always meant to be its primary avatar. I'll have to check again. There were some scans of White Phoenix on that respect thread, that showed her supposedly holding the universe in her hands for real this time while she was in the "White Hot Room" with some other avatars.


Jean Grey and The Phoenix Force officially became synonyms in... X-Factor #38. (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1337/1065700339_a352db0d92.jpg?v=0)

Morrison and Co. changed nor mixed anything... It was written already. No, I take that back perhaps mixed-up things is a good discription of what he did/wrote. Can you say "comicdom's fastest retcon ever?:evilsmile:

Man all this stuff is a lot to think about. No matter how many scans I read or sites I visit, I can't seem to take all this Phoenix stuff in, in a way that makes perfect sense. But it's not just X-Men, other comics get like this too. To think all this stuff probably would have never happened if Claremont and Byrne just had Dark Phoenix destroy an uninhabited solar system like in the cartoon. It's not like it would have suddenly made the story bad or anything.

You have a point:smile:

Interesting Almighty Pejo, I never new they originally had it to have her destroy an uninhabited system. Darn Byrne, you ****ed up! Now we got all this retcon crap. It's also interesting what you said about Jim Shooter's idea though. I can't really blame him for suggesting that. I don't know if having Jean be stuck that way forever as a punishment would be fair, but maybe for a long time or something. 5,000,000,000 dead is too much to just get away like nothing happened.

Don't fall for the Bull$#!+ Zeefree, "Almighty Pejo" just paraphrased to you What if #32 (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/earthphoenixrose.htm) Phoenix had not died and rose again Phoenix.

I already said this in the "Dirty Deeds" thread, but Superman is my favorite DC hero. And just for some random example let's say one day he got some kind of sudden extra energy from the sun and started randomly started massacring people, I'd lose a lot of respect for him. That's probably why I didn't like Phoenix or Jean anymore after reading Dark Phoenix Saga. I know her genocide thing made the story more dark and all, but I think the story still could have gotten famous even without that.

I understand. But, you have to take into consideration Phoenix/Jean Grey would not have gone that route had Emma frost and Mastermind not tampered with her mind.

[Zeefree]

Don't fall for the Bull$#!+ Zeefree, "Almighty Pejo" just paraphrased to you What if #32 Phoenix had not died and rose again Phoenix.

Oh yeah, I think I remember that one. I saw some scans from that What if... story. But I think it ended with Jean going whacko again and destroying everything. At that point I was like "Jean just can't seem to have this Phoenix power without losing her mind". Which is sad because I liked her Phoenix powers more than her original powers although I thought they were a little too strong for X-men.

I notice a lot of people on this site are saying they want Jean Grey brought back, and I can't really blame them I guess, since she is one of the first X-Men. But with my current feelings toward Jean/Phoenix I won't be complaining if she doesn't come back (although I know she will eventually). Lately I've come to find Rachel as a more likable character. Although her backstory and Phoenix powers and all that get confusing at times too.

[Almighty Pejo]

Don't fall for the Bull$#!+ Zeefree, "Almighty Pejo" just paraphrased to you What if #32 (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/earthphoenixrose.htm) Phoenix had not died and rose again Phoenix.No, you ignorant twit, I recounted Phoenix: The Untold Story (http://www.brokenfrontier.com/lowdown/p/detail/uncanny-x-memories-0723) which was published in 1983, predating your claimed "original" concept.

This book published the original Uncanny X-Men 138, as it was originally written and produced, showing Jean lobotomized by the most powerful telepaths in the cosmos, the blinding light of such an event, Scott hearing her final, primal scream of pain as their rapport faded (a sound he related to an animal caught in a trap from his childhood memories), and Jean surviving as a normal human with no mention of a Phoenix Force anywhere to be seen.

As the reviewer of that website also indicates:

"At the back of that special was a text-based feature entitled The Dark Phoenix Tapes. Running several pages it was a transcribed roundtable discussion between the editorial and creative staff responsible for the Dark Phoenix Saga (Jim Shooter, Chris Claremont, John Byrne, Louise Jones, Jim Salicrup and Terry Austin). Here they contemplated the last-minute changes to the issue, the trials and tribulations of completing the storyline and why Jim Shooter’s intervention on the arc’s ending led to Jean’s demise. Shooter believed that Dark Phoenix’s genocidal behaviour could not go unpunished. In story terms there had to be a price to be paid and any hint of a happy ending would not be appropriate for a woman who had killed millions."

Highlights of those tapes include:

John Byrne adding the D'Bari being shown incinerated by Phoenix's actions and Chris Claremont rescripting the page to include it.

Jim Shooter insisting that Jean had to be punished for eternity for what she had done.

A recounting of the planned events that were changed upon her death.

John Byrne's original idea that the lobotomized Jean would have the mind of a child with the power of a god lurking somewhere beneath that.

Scott and Jean's wedding and complete retiring from the X-Men, which would have taken place around Uncanny X-Men 150.

Hints of ways that could be used to bring her back (before Kurt Busiek's idea that Phoenix was an impostor was used in 1986).

The original first page of Uncanny X-Men 138 which featured Jean playing with a lily pad in the water while Scott watched her, standing from behind. (Even more pages of this original issue can be seen online, showing the two leaving the mansion and Jean looking over her shoulder at Wolverine).

These elements were later used to create a What If..? story, but that story was after the retcon, and therefore was not what was originally intended, and not a reference point in what I wrote.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Phoenix sure is complicated. I wonder if that's why Marvel don't seem to want to use her anymore.

[alf_to_the_rescue]

No, you ignorant twit

ZNOP is like that. Ignorance is bliss I find.

[Anodyne]

If I were absolute monarch of Marvel, I'd make the Phoenix Force "the sum and substance of all that lives," as Claremont once wrote. Not an entity, but a cosmic wellspring of power upon which all acts of creation, destruction and renewal draw. All living beings would drink from it; but some, like Jean, would quaff while others could only sip. And "Phoenix" would be Jean Grey's code-name, not her essence.

[ZNOP]

Don't fall for the Bull$#!+ Zeefree, "Almighty Pejo" just paraphrased to you What if #32 Phoenix had not died and rose again Phoenix.

FYI. Use the quote button when responding to posts:smile:

Oh yeah, I think I remember that one. I saw some scans from that What if... story. But I think it ended with Jean going whacko again and destroying everything. At that point I was like "Jean just can't seem to have this Phoenix power without losing her mind". Which is sad because I liked her Phoenix powers more than her original powers although I thought they were a little too strong for X-men.

Did you go to the link? It has the entire story summed up there.

I notice a lot of people on this site are saying they want Jean Grey brought back, and I can't really blame them I guess, since she is one of the first X-Men. But with my current feelings toward Jean/Phoenix I won't be complaining if she doesn't come back (although I know she will eventually). Lately I've come to find Rachel as a more likable character. Although her backstory and Phoenix powers and all that get confusing at times too.

Actually, I find Rachel's back story quite straight forward. And, as far her connection to the Phoenix Force goes. I'm sure you know she inhertated that along with her mother's TK/TP. "Rachel Summers goes to Jean Greys parents house. She finds the Holempathic Matrix Crystal, imbued with the essence of Jean Grey's personality. She claims the power and name of the Phoenix."

"If it wasn't printed -- it didn't happen.", "Off panel crap is just that... Crap!" and, "Assumption without reasonable and plausible explanation is the origin of all @uck-ups, and makes one look stupid!"

But, I digress.


UX-Men #199 (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/4/23420-3092-26105-1-uncanny-x-men-the_super.jpg)

[ZNOP]

No, you ignorant twit, I recounted Phoenix: The Untold Story (http://www.brokenfrontier.com/lowdown/p/detail/uncanny-x-memories-0723) which was published in 1983, predating your claimed "original" concept.

Sticks and stones. I stand corrected... I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Besides the fact that you are right... I, have that issue as well, both stories share the same theme. Tell me they don't. It was an honest mistake. I should not have tried to guess your source of info. However, now that you mention it. What If? "Phoenix had not died" Vol 1 #27 was printed in July, 1981 and REprinted in What If? "Phoenix had not died" Vol 2 #32 in December, 1991. Ooops! My, bad:evilsmile: Wow... Ignorant twit, huh?

ZNOP is like that. Ignorance is bliss I find.

True that! But, at least I correct my mistakes.

[Zeefree]

Oops, heh I didn't notice it was a link ZNOP. I clicked on the X-Factor one, and somehow I didn't notice the What if # 32 was also a link. Guess I went colorblind for a moment.

Phoenix sure is complicated. I wonder if that's why Marvel don't seem to want to use her anymore.


I've been thinking the same thing.

When I first started reading Phoenix vs. *random comic character* threads I noticed the Phoenix fans were saying that when Jean or Rachel uses the Phoenix Force, they can't lose. Then the other side would show them scans of them getting beaten, and the fans would then say things like "Oh that wasn't the Phoenix Force that was just Jean/Rachel as Phoenix getting beat because she couldn't use the full power of the Phoenix Force." Then at the same time on other threads I saw Phoenix fans saying that Jean Grey and Rachel CAN use the full power of the Phoenix Force. Confusing. So that's when I first started checking out Phoenix info to see who was right and man the stuff was making my head spin. I was like "I wish the writers would fix all this up".

[Henry T.]

Well, Znop, you might not respect or recognize Jean Grey's "White Phoenix" status but it is canon...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/XF1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/scan0001-3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/scan0002-3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/scan0003-2.jpg

[Henry T.]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/scan0004-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/scan0005-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/scan0006-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/scan0007-3.jpg

[alf_to_the_rescue]

Henry T. to the rescue

[Henry T.]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/WHITE1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/PAGE09-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/page10.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/page11.jpg

[Henry T.]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/20iy1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/21wj2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/22wc2.jpg

[darknessatnoon]

Jgg

http://www.alternatecover.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/7_newxmen150.jpg

[Henry T.]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/excalibur63page16xq3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/excalibur63page17le1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/excalibur63page18wh0.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/excalibur064p21zd1.jpg

[The Isolationist]

Where is this from, must have! :tongue: 4sake!



Avengers Infinity 01-04, this is the last one. It was pretty funny seeing Thor grabbed by his hand and slammed around like he was nothing.

[Zeefree]

Ok I read the summary, I was getting the What if # 32 mixed up with the What If # 27 vol. 1.


I know the What If series doesn't count as canon, but What If # 27 didn't make me think any more positively of Phoenix. And look at these images this wasn't even a fair fight.

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8592/whatif2728ip2.jpg
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3301/whatif2729uf7.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8273/whatif2730fd3.jpg
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8231/whatif2731ni1.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7461/whatif2732sl4.jpg
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/3844/whatif2733gv2.jpg


http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9960/whatif2734vb9.jpg

[Slung]

Interesting Almighty Pejo, I never new they originally had it to have her destroy an uninhabited system. Darn Byrne, you ****ed up! Now we got all this retcon crap. It's also interesting what you said about Jim Shooter's idea though. I can't really blame him for suggesting that. I don't know if having Jean be stuck that way forever as a punishment would be fair, but maybe for a long time or something. 5,000,000,000 dead is too much to just get away like nothing happened.

I already said this in the "Dirty Deeds" thread, but Superman is my favorite DC hero. And just for some random example let's say one day he got some kind of sudden extra energy from the sun and started randomly started massacring people, I'd lose a lot of respect for him. That's probably why I didn't like Phoenix or Jean anymore after reading Dark Phoenix Saga. I know her genocide thing made the story more dark and all, but I think the story still could have gotten famous even without that.

Couple of quick things:

first off, Jean was mentally raped and twisted into evil by Mastermind and Emma Frost. They splintered her psyche and unleashed evil into her mind. Although she physically committed the heinous crime, I don't think she can be held responsible for those actions.

Second, many X-Men have done terrible things and without manipulation. Sure, none of them on the scale of Dark Phoenix - but most of them never had that sort of power.

Rachel once stole the life essence of her friends to destroy the entire universe just to defeat a bad guy. She was talked down out of it.

Emma Frost, in addition to murdering countless people, helped Sebastian Shaw rape Storm and got her jollies torturing children into being amoral killers.

Wolverine has obviously done his fair share of murder and mayhem in his life.

Gambit helped the Marauders commit genocide against the Morlocks.

The list goes on and on. You can't really hate Jean for being driven crazy by psychopaths like Mastermind and Emma Frost. That's like hating a kid whose been brainwashed into a suicide bombing.

[Minihorse]

Sentry the man with the power of a thousand exploding suns. :wink:

[Zeefree]

Yes the X-Men have done lots of bad things. Wolverine killed lots of people, although most of it was in battle. Emma Frost is no saint that's for sure. I was surprised when she became a good guy.

But like you said, none of these really match what Phoenix did. As for her being brainwashed, I used to tell myself that and didn't really want to believe that it was all her fault then I started thinking differently. One thing, I think it's strange how being very intelligent and one of the most powerful telepaths alive, or even the most powerful, with fans claiming how "phoenix can easily mind control someone no matter how powerful or strong minded they are", Jean Grey gets so mind-warped by a small time villain like Mastermind. And didn't she break free of his influence before she went on her rampage, and still choose to embrace evil? I also remember how on the Shiar ship before the battle with Lilandra's guards she was talking to Cyclops and said something like "oh Scott, it was horrible, I heard all their screams. I don't ever want that feeling again. And at the same time, I do." Although when she said the "I do" part she might have been referring to what Dark Phoenix would have said.

So I don't know. Maybe you guys are right and she isn't really to blame. Although I still felt that the good, virtuous side of Jean should have been able to regain her senses before she did the stuff she did. Maybe Claremont was trying to show a message that no matter how "good" a character is, if they get too much power they go bad. Or maybe I'm looking too deep into it.

[Slung]

Yes the X-Men have done lots of bad things. Wolverine killed lots of people, although most of it was in battle. Emma Frost is no saint that's for sure. I was surprised when she became a good guy.

But like you said, none of these really match what Phoenix did. As for her being brainwashed, I used to tell myself that and didn't really want to believe that it was all her fault then I started thinking differently. One thing, I think it's strange how being very intelligent and one of the most powerful telepaths alive, or even the most powerful, with fans claiming how "phoenix can easily mind control someone no matter how powerful or strong minded they are", Jean Grey gets so mind-warped by a small time villain like Mastermind. And didn't she break free of his influence before she went on her rampage, and still choose to embrace evil? I also remember how on the Shiar ship before the battle with Lilandra's guards she was talking to Cyclops and said something like "oh Scott, it was horrible, I heard all their screams. I don't ever want that feeling again. And at the same time, I do." Although when she said the "I do" part she might have been referring to what Dark Phoenix would have said.

So I don't know. Maybe you guys are right and she isn't really to blame. Although I still felt that the good, virtuous side of Jean should have been able to regain her senses before she did the stuff she did. Maybe Claremont was trying to show a message that no matter how "good" a character is, if they get too much power they go bad. Or maybe I'm looking too deep into it.

Yes, she was able to break free of Mastermind, but the damage done to her psyche was already done. He had splintered her mind and she now had an evil personality. It's why she kept reverting back and forth. Mastermind had created a terrible mental disorder inside of her: dissociative personality disorder. The evil personality Mastermind and Emma Frost created was completely devoid of morality or empathy.

At the point of her saying "I do" she was having to reintegrate these tremendous experience that are completely outside of human understanding or experience. The Dark Phoenix power coupled with psychic brainwash and turned Jean Grey into an angry and powerful goddess.

[Goshin]

phoenix would look at sentry and turn him retarded.


wait....

isnt sentry superman with down syndrome?

[ZNOP]

Ah. Henry T. I didn't said it wasn't canon -- and, it's not the White Phoenix costume that I don't respect either -- for I know that, that theme was well established in "Classic X-Men" way before Morrison made the scene... It's the whole "White Phoenix of the Crown" crap that I don't respect. It's the redefining of the M'Kraan to make that whole storyplot work. And for what??? So, Morrison could kill Jean in the most assinine way, only bring her right back -- Just so he could say,.. "I brought back the Phoenix?!?" Hell, she was officially back in UX-Men #354. (http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/uncanny-x-men/354-3.jpg)

Note: During that lengthy dialog between Death and Jean (The first dialog, because XMF Vol. 1 clearly states that was the second time they spoke) -- Did you notice that not once was the location of where they were ever mentioned? Yet, during the conversation that Death had with the Phoenix Force regarding Rachel's fate... It was clearly pointed out that Rachel was floating in space. No... Canon is fine... But, sense is better. Long live XMF Vol. 2.

Thanks for the scans. That was very cool of you.

[Ororo101]

Wanda Maximoff. Three words. No More Phoenix. Done.



JK, idk if that would really work buy it would be an interesting fight.

[juan678]

Moira Matcgeer in x-man 26 said most powerful dark poenix :biggrin:

[ProfeZZor X]

...Scrambler, Leech, Synch.

[Scavenger]

Maybe Claremont was trying to show a message that no matter how "good" a character is, if they get too much power they go bad. Or maybe I'm looking too deep into it.

Oh, Claremont is ALL ABOUT Lord Acton. You don't have to look too deep to get hit over the head with that...any Xavier speech about using his telepathy gives you that.

Someone earlier asked about who the most powerful Phoneix avatar was. I've always felt Rachel tops the list, as someone who was basically bred to be the avatar of it. "The one true Phoenix"...unique in the multiverse and all of that. (Jean eventually went mad/dark with the power...Rachel didn't).

(Of course, I'm not a comic writer who used to wank himself to Cockrum Jean pictures who gets to right his fanfic to have her reprogramming the universe or whatever.)

[ZNOP]

Someone earlier asked about who the most powerful Phoneix avatar was. I've always felt Rachel tops the list, as someone who was basically bred to be the avatar of it. "The one true Phoenix"...unique in the multiverse and all of that. (Jean eventually went mad/dark with the power...Rachel didn't).

Err??? No she didn't:evilangry: Jean was tampered with and manipulated by Emma Frost and Jason Wyngarde. Flashback... Mastermind uses a miniature “mindtrap mechanism” designed by Emma Frost that allowed him to project illusions directly into Grey’s mind, so that only she saw them, and in doing so, Mastermind triggered Grey’s transformation into the insane Dark Phoenix.

How can you even began to claim Rachel was basically bred? No, nevermind -- I'll let that one go:rolleyes:

(Of course, I'm not a comic writer who used to wank himself to Cockrum Jean pictures who gets to right his fanfic to have her reprogramming the universe or whatever.)

:eek:Where you there watching, or helping -- as he wanked, and wrote?:evilsmile:

[ZNOP]

Sorry "Scavenger" That last one was just begging for it:biggrin:

[Zeefree]

Oh, Claremont is ALL ABOUT Lord Acton. You don't have to look too deep to get hit over the head with that...any Xavier speech about using his telepathy gives you that.

Someone earlier asked about who the most powerful Phoneix avatar was. I've always felt Rachel tops the list, as someone who was basically bred to be the avatar of it. "The one true Phoenix"...unique in the multiverse and all of that. (Jean eventually went mad/dark with the power...Rachel didn't).

(Of course, I'm not a comic writer who used to wank himself to Cockrum Jean pictures who gets to right his fanfic to have her reprogramming the universe or whatever.)

HA, that was pretty funny.


As for what you said about Rachel not going mad and all that, yeah that's one reason why I like her more than Jean. I do remember some part where she tapped into her Phoenix energy and robbed future generations of being born or something in a fight with Galactus, but once she realized what she did she actually seemed to be torn up inside and ashamed over it. Jean didn't seem to be as remorseful to me. Then again, I haven't read all the stories involving Rachel yet so I can't make that judgment for sure I guess.

As for the guy who listed Sentry as one who is more powerful than the Phoenix Force, I have seen threads about Sentry vs. Phoenix but the Phoenix fans were
saying that the "Sentry being as powerful as 1000 exploding suns" thing is not true and it's not stated in any of the comics. One guy said that it was stated that Sentry was so powerful that he was seen as a threat to the cosmic beings just by existing. But I haven't seen any scans that showed that, and from what we've seen so far Sentry is pretty much like Superman, and hasn't really done anything on a universal scale yet. But I could be wrong.

[Dave13]

HA, that was pretty funny.
As for the guy who listed Sentry as one who is more powerful than the Phoenix Force, I have seen threads about Sentry vs. Phoenix but the Phoenix fans were
saying that the "Sentry being as powerful as 1000 exploding suns" thing is not true and it's not stated in any of the comics. One guy said that it was stated that Sentry was so powerful that he was seen as a threat to the cosmic beings just by existing. But I haven't seen any scans that showed that, and from what we've seen so far Sentry is pretty much like Superman, and hasn't really done anything on a universal scale yet. But I could be wrong.

You would be correct That Sentry has not shown his full potential power yet but he has shown pretty awesame feats of power, Massive super strength and world wide Telepathy to name too

[ZNOP]

I, want to know why every planet cracking, space trucking, mind blowing, superhero/villain is Caucasian?!? What the @uck happened to diversity? Ahem!

[Dave13]

I, want to know why every planet cracking, space trucking, mind blowing, superhero/villain is Caucasian?!? What the @uck happened to diversity? Ahem!

Gladiatar is Blueish does tat count as diversty?

[Henry T.]

Lets set the record straight...

Rachel was a bit crazed when she first became Phoenix. She considered destroying the entire universe because she wanted to kill the Beyonder. Wolverine also had to stab her to keep her from killing Selene.

When Rachel first got the Blue Phoenix she almost lost control and she needlessly slaughtered a bunch of Shiar in battle even though she could have subdued them without harm.

Also Rachel did not have as much Phoenix power as Jean did and she also knew the lesson of Dark Phoenix. Jean also gained power too abruptly because Xavier had put blocks in her mind.

Furthermore not only did Mastermind and Emma mess with Jean causing her to go insane as Dark Phoenix, she also did not know that the D'Bari was there.

She did not mean to kill them. It was a consequence of her eating the star but she was unaware of it.

Although Morrison did make the Dark Phoenix aspect a natural part of the Phoenix's role without any crazy being involved. In his view the Phoenix heals or destroys by a predestined process.

[Zeefree]

Heh that's a pretty long list. I'm sure the Black Panther has the power warp reality and destroy galaxies and control time and all that too. He just uh...he just doesn't want to do it yet. Yeah that's it!


(Of course, I'm not a comic writer who used to wank himself to Cockrum Jean pictures who gets to right his fanfic to have her reprogramming the universe or whatever.)


That post also reminds me of something else I read in another message board once. I'll have to find the post again but I remember a user saying that the Phoenix Force is made to be more powerful than it really is, mostly due to fanbase, and that fans even got to work on its entry in the Marvel Handbooks. Something like Marvel was getting lazy and doing sloppy editing at the time, and that the current handbooks used mostly copied and pasted data from various wikis, and the data was obviously biased.

He said that one instance was regarding the creation of Galactus. His creation has always been an act of the previous universe's Eternity, but Phoenix fans made the correlation that since Galactus was born from an "egg", that it must have been the Phoenix Force in disguise since only Phoenix can lay an egg. Also, Phoenix was never mentioned in any re-tellings of Galactus's origin, and Eternity always has been. He also said that Phoenix has never or very rarely appeared in any books outside the X-Men titles.

Interesting, if all this is true.

[Slung]

HA, that was pretty funny.


As for what you said about Rachel not going mad and all that, yeah that's one reason why I like her more than Jean. I do remember some part where she tapped into her Phoenix energy and robbed future generations of being born or something in a fight with Galactus, but once she realized what she did she actually seemed to be torn up inside and ashamed over it. Jean didn't seem to be as remorseful to me. Then again, I haven't read all the stories involving Rachel yet so I can't make that judgment for sure I guess.

As for the guy who listed Sentry as one who is more powerful than the Phoenix Force, I have seen threads about Sentry vs. Phoenix but the Phoenix fans were
saying that the "Sentry being as powerful as 1000 exploding suns" thing is not true and it's not stated in any of the comics. One guy said that it was stated that Sentry was so powerful that he was seen as a threat to the cosmic beings just by existing. But I haven't seen any scans that showed that, and from what we've seen so far Sentry is pretty much like Superman, and hasn't really done anything on a universal scale yet. But I could be wrong.

Where are talking to this many delusional Jean fans? I thought they were in hiding post Emma taking control of the X-Men.

Also, Rachel murdered a bunch of the X-Men as a hound - do you blame her after being brainwashed? Rachel also stole the life essences of humanity and threatened to destroy all of existence in a fit of childish pride to battle the Beyonder, while completely stable.

Jean was brainwashed. She was doing fine until Mastermind and Frost drove her insane.

I, want to know why every planet cracking, space trucking, mind blowing, superhero/villain is Caucasian?!? What the @uck happened to diversity? Ahem!

Why are all the reality altering, psychos white?

Heh that's a pretty long list. I'm sure the Black Panther has the power warp reality and destroy galaxies and control time and all that too. He just uh...he just doesn't want to do it yet. Yeah that's it!


(Of course, I'm not a comic writer who used to wank himself to Cockrum Jean pictures who gets to right his fanfic to have her reprogramming the universe or whatever.)


That post also reminds me of something else I read in another message board once. I'll have to find the post again but I remember a user saying that the Phoenix Force is made to be more powerful than it really is, mostly due to fanbase, and that fans even got to work on its entry in the Marvel Handbooks. Something like Marvel was getting lazy and doing sloppy editing at the time, and that the current handbooks used mostly copied and pasted data from various wikis, and the data was obviously biased.

He said that one instance was regarding the creation of Galactus. His creation has always been an act of the previous universe's Eternity, but Phoenix fans made the correlation that since Galactus was born from an "egg", that it must have been the Phoenix Force in disguise since only Phoenix can lay an egg. Also, Phoenix was never mentioned in any re-tellings of Galactus's origin, and Eternity always has been. He also said that Phoenix has never or very rarely appeared in any books outside the X-Men titles.

Interesting, if all this is true.
You find the strangest Phoenix fans. Maybe you need to talk to more than just two crazies that you've met online to get a better feel for Jean Grey fans.

[Zeefree]

Lets set the record straight...

Rachel was a bit crazed when she first became Phoenix. She considered destroying the entire universe because she wanted to kill the Beyonder. Wolverine also had to stab her to keep her from killing Selene.

When Rachel first got the Blue Phoenix she almost lost control and she needlessly slaughtered a bunch of Shiar in battle even though she could have subdued them without harm.

Also Rachel did not have as much Phoenix power as Jean did and she also knew the lesson of Dark Phoenix. Jean also gained power too abruptly because Xavier had put blocks in her mind.

Furthermore not only did Mastermind and Emma mess with Jean causing her to go insane as Dark Phoenix, she also did not know that the D'Bari was there.

She did not mean to kill them. It was a consequence of her eating the star but she was unaware of it.

Although Morrison did make the Dark Phoenix aspect a natural part of the Phoenix's role without any crazy being involved. In his view the Phoenix heals or destroys by a predestined process.



I know that her original intent was to just eat the star, not destroy the D'Bari. They just happened to be in the solar system she was targeting. But certain panels made it look like she knew what was happening to them and just didn't care. Like that one I mentioned earlier where she was talking about how she still heard their screams in her mind, and part of her hated it while part of her liked it.


Although Morrison did make the Dark Phoenix aspect a natural part of the Phoenix's role without any crazy being involved. In his view the Phoenix heals or destroys by a predestined process


Yeah I always found that kind of weird. I remember her telling Wolverine something like the Phoenix isn't bad, "it just burns away what doesn't work". And evolutionary dead ends or something like that. Well I'm wondering, who is Phoenix to decide everything's fate? Morrison's whole ''making the Dark Phoenix a normal or necessary part of Jean/Phoenix's being'' sounds like an excuse justify her blowing up more civilizations and stuff in the future. I guess Jean and Rachel just can't have the Phoenix powers without being partially evil or something. I guess it's supposed to be a double edged sword. Getting a whole bunch of cool powers at the expense of their personality or something.

I never was a fan of Morrison's run on X-Men. But after reading Chuck Austen's terrible stuff, suddenly I liked Morrison a lot better.

[darknessatnoon]

Maybe you need to talk to more than just two crazies that you've met online to get a better feel for Jean Grey fans.

I've seen enough, thank you.

[Zeefree]

Where are talking to this many delusional Jean fans? I thought they were in hiding post Emma taking control of the X-Men.

Also, Rachel murdered a bunch of the X-Men as a hound - do you blame her after being brainwashed? Rachel also stole the life essences of humanity and threatened to destroy all of existence in a fit of childish pride to battle the Beyonder, while completely stable.

Jean was brainwashed. She was doing fine until Mastermind and Frost drove her insane.



Why are all the reality altering, psychos white? As for the Phoenix Fans thing, I'm serious I'm not making all this up. It's not just two psycho fans or anything. I've been to or read lot's of discussions on message boards about Phoenix, most of them being Phoenix vs *insert other hero* topics.


You find the strangest Phoenix fans. Maybe you need to talk to more than just two crazies that you've met online to get a better feel for Jean Grey fans.

Yeah you're right that's true, Rachel isn't a goody-two shoes either. As for the thing about me and the Phoenix Fans, I'm serious I'm not making this stuff up. It wasn't just two psycho fans or anything, I've been to or seen lots of threads on different message board sites concerning Phoenix, although most of them were "Phoenix vs. *insert other hero*" topics. I remember one being some DC-Marvel fight thing where Superman Prime was against Phoenix and people were pretty much being like "OMG! No one can beat Phoenix she controls MATTER, GALAXIES, UNIVERSE MEGAVERSE MULTIVERSE OMNIVERSE LOLOLOLOLOL!" I was thinking "was the Phoenix Force really that powerful?" I had only read the Claremont Phoenix Sagas so I started reading info on her myself to find out what was true and not.

Anyway, like you said about me needing to get a better feel for Jean fans, that's one of the reasons why I started this topic here instead of the general Marvel area. I read some posts on the respect thread and other topics here and thought "Hmm, these fans seem to be a little more normal. Maybe they can give me an honest or unbiased answer to this topic and they'll probably understand Phoenix more." And for the most part, it's working out since some of you guys and the scans shown have gotten me to think that maybe I've been thinking too harshly of Phoenix and its avatars.

[Slung]

Yeah you're right that's true, Rachel isn't a goody-two shoes either. As for the thing about me and the Phoenix Fans, I'm serious I'm not making this stuff up. It wasn't just two psycho fans or anything, I've been to or seen lots of threads on different message board sites concerning Phoenix, although most of them were "Phoenix vs. *insert other hero*" topics. I remember one being some DC-Marvel fight thing where Superman Prime was against Phoenix and people were pretty much being like "OMG! No one can beat Phoenix she controls MATTER, GALAXIES, UNIVERSE MEGAVERSE MULTIVERSE OMNIVERSE LOLOLOLOLOL!" I was thinking "was the Phoenix Force really that powerful?" I had only read the Claremont Phoenix Sagas so I started reading info on her myself to find out what was true and not.

Anyway, like you said about me needing to get a better feel for Jean fans, that's one of the reasons why I started this topic here instead of the general Marvel area. I read some posts on the respect thread and other topics here and thought "Hmm, these fans seem to be a little more normal. Maybe they can give me an honest or unbiased answer to this topic and they'll probably understand Phoenix more." And for the most part, it's working out since some of you guys and the scans shown have gotten me to think that maybe I've been thinking too harshly of Phoenix and its avatars.

You should try looking into Storm vs. threads or Magneto vs. threads to see real insanity.

And dn@n, you are like a breath of fresh air every time you post.

[AJ Valliant]

Meh I think that was a lack in judgement. I think if Surfer was evil he could poof some galaxies too. If there is any hero that can take down the PF its Silver Surfer. His powers are so vast and he is so experienced with them that PF would be no big deal. He did after all take down 2 Galactus level threats.

He also got crushed and killed by the Red Hulk in two seconds flat.

[Slung]

He also got crushed and killed by the Red Hulk in two seconds flat.

That is awful. Just awful.

[darknessatnoon]

He also got crushed and killed by the Red Hulk in two seconds flat.

Also, Black Panther beat him.

I would like to see Black Panther versus Red Hulk.

[darknessatnoon]

Jean was full after eating one sun. Sentry is a million suns.

He could defeat Phoenix.

Also, Penance.

[Azure]

Also, Black Panther beat him.

I would like to see Black Panther versus Red Hulk.

That would be interesting. M*** S** Vs M*** S**. Can Pixie and X-23 fight in the backup story?

[ZNOP]

Yeah I always found that kind of weird. I remember her telling Wolverine something like the Phoenix isn't bad, "it just burns away what doesn't work". And evolutionary dead ends or something like that. Well I'm wondering, who is Phoenix to decide everything's fate? Morrison's whole ''making the Dark Phoenix a normal or necessary part of Jean/Phoenix's being'' sounds like an excuse justify her blowing up more civilizations and stuff in the future.

Makes me wonder if Morrison thought we might have forgotten that keeping the balance of the universe was the primary job of Galactus? And, wait for it... He doesn't give a @#!+ if the civilizations that cross his plate "works" or not -- everybody in the entire multiverse is a potential Hors d'oeuvre with their planet(s) being the main course.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/37/Galactuspov.PNG/403px-Galactuspov.PNG

Galactus is described as "the physical, metamorphosed embodiment of a cosmos" and "the most awesome living entity in the cosmos." Galactus wields the Power Cosmic and can employ it to produce nearly any effect he desires, including the molecular restructuring and transmutation of matter, the teleportation of objects — in one instance a galaxy — across space or time, size-alteration, the projection of energy with indeterminable destructive force, the erection of nearly impenetrable force fields, the creation of interdimensional and intra-dimensional portals, telepathy, telekinesis, and a form of cosmic awareness. Galactus has even shown the abilities to create sentient life, simultaneously reconstitute himself and others from complete physical disruption, manipulate mortal souls as well as memories and emotions, and restore dead planets along with their population. Not to mention, “The Ultimate Nullifier” can destroy entire time-lines from beginning to end and instantly nullify (and, paradoxically, recreate) a multiverse. While its origins are ancient and were previously unknown, it has been revealed that the Ultimate Nullifier is actually an aspect of Galactus.

[Zeefree]

Lol yeah don't wanna get in the way of a hungry Galactus, not when he has that appetite. Funny thing is though with his power he should be able to create planets from scratch instead of having to search for some to devour, but I guess that would be too boring for him.

Galactus: "Screw that, I wanna seek and destroy"

[coveredinbees]

Wouldn't the effort only make him even more famished?

[ZNOP]

Wouldn't the effort only make him even more famished?

Yup, it a universal constant. Galactus, actually lives off of the bio energy that he gets from living planets.